Dr. Joseph Farrell argues a secret "breakaway civilization" funded by laundered Nazi loot and Yamashita's gold drives covert space programs and weather warfare. He traces this network from post-war Nazi transfers to NASA, alleging Deutsche Bank facilitated deals between Prince Bernard and Hermann Josef Oppenheim while General Gehlen merged into the CIA. Farrell claims JFK was assassinated for threatening these interests, linking Lee Oswald to White Russian communities and asserting that radical Islam groups like the Muslim Brotherhood serve as modern manifestations of this enduring fascist police state structure. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Roots of Breakaway Civilization00:04:14
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I have an exciting show for you on the roots of the breakaway civilization with Dr. Joseph Farrell.
Now, Dr. Farrell is the author of the groundbreaking book Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations.
In it, he pulls back the veil on a secret group that has developed super advanced technology and covert space operations, all with an abundance of black budget money that has been carefully laundered through a shady network of international finance.
Now, the roots of the breakaway civilization include a Post war Nazi international that had an early influence on NASA, the first UFO reports, and the coalescence of interests that combined to remove JFK from power some 50 years ago.
We're in for a wild ride with this one.
Here we go Dr. Joseph Farrell, The Roots of the Breakaway Civilization.
You know, we have slipped into a fascist police state snitch culture.
Yeah.
Where every aspect is monitored, reported.
You know, this would have been sort of a Hitlerian wet dream in terms of the expansion of state power.
I feel like I've gone to sleep and woke up in another country.
Now, Joseph, I'd like to get your definition of what the breakaway civilization is, what it consists of.
As you've laid it out in your series of books.
Well, the idea of a breakaway civilization, Daniel, it really originates with Richard Dolan, the ufologist.
Right.
He wrote a couple of what I think are just wonderful books called UFOs and the National Security State.
And in one of those, he suggests that the formation of the national security state, Was due in part and as one of the principal reasons because of the UFO phenomenon.
And he proposes that if they were dealing with the phenomenon, they had to at some point have acquired a technological capacity that far exceeds the public civilization that you and I live in on a day to day basis.
In other words, their capability probably vastly exceeds that.
And he also made a second suggestion that this is all occurring in the context of the Cold War.
So, in other words, you've got Cold Warriors with a certain kind of mentality of looking at everything as a potential threat.
So, in other words, it's not just the Communist Bloc, but the UFO.
And for good reason, they're not just making this up.
So, I kind of started there and decided: all right, that's an intriguing idea because if you are going to have a civilization like that, Then the next thing you're going to have is, in a certain sense, a different kind of culture, a different process of policy making and decision taking, and so on and so forth.
So these books are really about the culture of that civilization and what they might be up to, why they might be up to it.
And there's a final component that really preoccupied me in the Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilization book.
And that is if you're going to, let's put it in terms of a hypothetical.
If you're going to have a technology that you are trying to emulate the performance of UFOs with, then it stands to reason that this is going to be, number one, a project that will endure over time, probably much longer than the Manhattan Project of World War II.
Hidden Finance and Bilderberg00:02:09
We're looking at a project of conceivably several decades beginning in the immediate post World War II period.
So, the second thing it's going to require is not only a long term commitment by this private group, in other words, you really could grow a separate culture, a separate civilization, a separate technology, but this is going to require, secondly, a vast and hidden system of finance.
And by hidden, I mean entirely off the books, not just the black budget, not just discretionary funds, but something so totally black, and it's got to be huge.
And in looking around for the basis for that, I've always come back to two different things, Daniel.
And the first is that in the immediate post war period on the European side of the fence, you had the formation, of course, of the Bilderberg group.
Right.
But representing the Europeans, who did you have?
You had Prince Bernard.
And of course, he was a former Nazi.
And I put quotation marks around former.
Right.
And the other thing that you have is the participation in those early Bilderberg meetings of one Hermann Josef Ops, who I think is a very significant figure because, of course, he's the CEO of Deutsche Bank.
During the war, he was actually a banker and a.
Bank in Berlin that was a handling bank for all the Reich government accounts.
In other words, this was the guy paying Adolf Hitler's salary as chancellor.
Wow.
So, you know, this guy is a regular feature at these early Bilderberg meetings.
And so I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, why then do we have such a prominence on the European side of these Nazis?
And my speculative answer was that this coordination between the Western financial centers on One side, and the Europeans represented by this presence of Nazis, had to be for the coordination of all that Nazi loot and laundering it through Western banks.
Japanese Fascist Slush Funds00:06:15
And most likely, and my scenario is, they kept a great deal of that off the books.
In other words, this gave them a hidden reserve by which they could vastly expand their ledger credit making ability after the war, which in fact happened.
So, in other words, there's part of it.
But the other component that I talk about in the book that you're referring to, Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations, that part of it comes from the Imperial Japanese part of the equation.
Because, of course, during World War II, the Japanese, just like the Nazis, plundered Asia.
In fact, if you compare the two operations, the Japanese really kind of put the Germans to shame because the Japanese literally had such a vast operation of looking for.
Every conceivable hiding place of bullion, jewels, gems, paper currency, you know, everything.
They literally sucked bullion out of Asia in an unbelievable quantity.
And during the war, they buried much of it after they were unable to ship it, particularly from Southeast Asia back to Japan, they buried much of it in the Philippines.
And of course, this became known as Yamashita's gold, named after General Tomoyuki Yamashita, the Japanese general that was.
Tasked with burying this stuff beginning in 1944.
And after the war, American intelligence got wind of this.
And it's fascinating to connect the dots here because the man that got wind of this was one Edward Lansdale, who becomes a big, huge figure in post war CIA covert operations.
In fact, if you're familiar with the Kennedy assassination, there are some people that think that.
That Lansdale was deeply connected with that, and I'm one of them.
I think that you could make that case.
Lansdale had the driver of General Yamashita tortured, literally tortured, by Filipino cutouts to discover the locations of some of this Japanese gold.
And when he found it at some of these places, he in turn flew immediately to Tokyo to inform General MacArthur.
And General MacArthur then sent him from Tokyo to Washington, D.C. To brief President Truman on the existence of all this vast Japanese plunder.
And President Truman in 1947, please note the year, took the decision after consulting with his national security advisors to keep this entire plunder, the existence of this plunder, a complete secret.
In other words, he created at once, at that moment, a top secret slush fund, a political slush fund for covert activities and black projects research.
This is the money, I believe, that is the basis for all of the unvouchered funds that you see emerging after World War II, particularly in the intelligence community.
In other words, what Truman did is he set up American intelligence in the banking business.
That's literally what he did.
Now, the other part of this, and I go into this in the book, is that the amount of bullion that the Japanese pulled out of Asia was.
Most likely not factored in to any estimates going all the way back to World War II and extending all the way up to the present time, is not factored in to any estimates of actually existing amounts of bullion in the world.
In other words, the amounts that you see online, which are always different because they obfuscate those figures to begin with, may be off by as much as an order of magnitude.
The other thing you've got to bear in mind is when they set up this hidden system of finance with all this bullion, they had to do so in cahoots with the very Japanese angle of fascism because the Japanese are the ones that know where all of it is.
Right.
Yeah.
So, MacArthur, you know, if you study the existence of this fund, you'll find that it angles and winds its way through dirty deals between President Nixon and Prime Minister Tanaka and the Japanese Liberal Democratic Party, and some incredibly shady financial dealings going on there.
So, you know, it's a huge story.
Yeah.
Well, so basically, then there's certainly a lot more gold out there than what we know about in terms of circulation, and they've been able to keep it hidden and under wraps and use it as kind of a secret financing.
Right.
And what they're financing in terms of a civilization.
What would be the aspect there?
Because I know that in the book you mentioned a secret space program.
That would be a major piece of the puzzle.
Well, yeah.
I think that the sums of money that you're dealing with, I kind of take my point of departure, Daniel, from the existence of all these bearer bond scandals that emerged in the news back in 2007, 2008, 2009.
Yeah.
And when you examine those scandals, they're very, very peculiar because.
Supposedly, we were told that these people were counterfeiting gold backed bearer bonds for trillions of dollars and doing so in denominations of $500 million and in some cases $1 billion.
And, you know, trillions of dollars in those kinds of denominations, even with, you know, a discount of a penny on a dollar, you're still beginning with vast sums of money.
Planetary Scale Technology00:04:00
So, you know, I got to thinking, well, all right.
The amount of money here far exceeds what most people think that Truman set up this political slush fund for.
Most people think that he set it up as a slush fund for covert operations, which is certainly true.
You can't deny that aspect of it.
But trillions of dollars far exceeds any explanation that you could conceive for covert operations.
You're dealing, therefore, with something else, and in my opinion, it had to be research.
Well, why research?
Well, I go back to what we began with.
If you're setting up a long term program to re.
Research the UFO and to emulate its performance by technological means, then it's most likely that that technology is going to be exceedingly costly.
I get into this argument a bit more in the final book, Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations.
But basically, my argument is this if you look at what's called the Kardashev Civilization Classification System.
Kardashev was a Soviet astronomer that posited that you can basically have three different types of civilization that would be capable of interplanetary exploration.
A class one civilization would have the energy requirements of an entire planet, a class two civilization would have the energy requirements of an entire star, a class three civilization would have the energy requirements of an entire galaxy.
From that, I kind of developed my own corollaries.
My corollaries say that you begin to enter a civilization stage when you possess the technology to leverage the energy requirements or to manipulate systems on that scale.
So, in other words, if you have systems or a technology that allow you to manipulate systems on a planetary scale, then you're already dealing to a certain extent with planetary sized systems.
So, I think that in terms of that analysis, This breakaway civilization probably has entered class one stage.
And the reason I think that is we're already familiar, your listeners are probably already familiar with weather systems, weather warfare, weather manipulation, so on and so forth.
Well, when you start manipulating weather, you're manipulating things on a planetary scale.
You're using energies on a planetary scale.
I mean, look at HARP.
So, you know, in the gigawatt range.
So you're creating a kind of leverage in terms of energy.
Now, what I'm suggesting with all of this vast system of funding is something very interesting because what you're also leveraging with this huge system of finance, you're leveraging the world economy.
You're creating a huge system designed to create the impression of a planetary sized economy and a planetary sized energy requirement.
And the reason why is again, if you're going to develop technologies to emulate the UFO, they're probably going to be very expensive.
So, this, you know, it's very complex.
This is what I think is going on.
And I do think that a lot of it is an indicator of a secret space program.
There really is no other explanation for why all that cash was needed.
It sounds like the space program, then, in that, what you just laid out there, is, it sounds like it may be the crux of where all the money is going.
Oh, yes.
So,.
Well, let's talk a little bit about what they're trying to emulate.
Hidden Human UFO Origins00:15:32
And, you know, there have been, when we talk about UFOs, there's so many different levels that we can discuss it at, but there are basically two types of people on UFOs, I feel.
Some who feel that the UFOs are basically an ET technology and they're visiting here and that we are looking at them and trying to figure them out.
And there's another group of people who feel that, no, it's actually an advanced human civilization that is using advanced technology that we're not aware of.
And,.
You know, we just have sort of imagined or projected that it's extraterrestrial.
Where do you think, where does your own point of view come in there?
I have some idea from what you're reading, but I'm curious.
Well, my point of view gets mistaken quite a bit.
I am not philosophically opposed to the existence of extraterrestrials, nor am I philosophically opposed to the idea that they may be visiting here and that that's what.
Phenomenon in part represents.
I greatly object to the way that ufology has tended to write off explanations of certain events or to write off looking at alternative explanations.
But no, I'm not opposed to it.
I do think that it's a both and situation rather than an either or situation.
In other words, I do think that you have to look at the indicators beginning, you know.
Long before the world wars, going all the way back to the 19th century airship mysteries, that somebody on this planet is developing technologies far in advance of the publicly available technology.
And doing so for whatever purpose.
You know, I think that's fairly clear from the airship mysteries.
I think it begins to be very clear by the time you get to Nikola Tesla at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century.
And it's very clear, again, with the Nazis in the Third Reich that you're dealing in all three cases with technologies that are being developed that are far beyond what is publicly thought to be possible.
And I do think that, in particular, the Nazis' case, that this led to the creation, in part, of a post war extraterritorial sort of Nazi state that continued to research these things.
Sometimes in conjunction with their host countries, and sometimes completely and totally independent of them.
And I do think, in turn, that this was influential in the creation of this American breakaway civilization.
But I do not think that it is possible to explain all UFO cases on that basis.
And here's why.
And I get into this aspect of things.
More completely in the final book in that little mini series.
And I do so by way of examining the very same individual who is behind the creation of all of those Air Force memoranda after Roswell.
And if you look at them, you know, people in ufology love to ignore my book, Roswell and the Reich.
But, you know, I'm very thorough in terms of, especially in that book, the examination of the documents that ufology likes.
To cite to prove its ET case and interpretation of that event.
But in the process, they ignore the passages, and there are quite a few of them, that are clearly pointing the finger in the direction of Nazi Germany as an explanation for some of this technology.
And in fact, in the original version of the Shulgin collection memorandum after Roswell, there is no mention whatsoever of interplanetary hypothesis.
So, in other words, that original document is pointing the finger solely.
In the direction of Nazi Germany's case.
Now, what's interesting about that is in 1947, the Nazis supposedly had been.
Defeated.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
So, would the American military have good reason to cover up a crash of something Nazi in the Mexico desert?
Yeah, of course.
You know, that's.
Bingo, you've hit the finger right on the head.
That's my interpretation of what happened.
Disagrees with me, that's fine.
But the reason I'm belaboring this point is that the man who was influential on General Shulgin, General Twining, and drawing up these memoranda was a fellow in the American National Security Establishment based in Ohio.
He had regular contact with the paperclip Nazis at Wright Patterson Air Base.
And this fellow's name was Alfred Leiding.
And he was a German American engineer, aerodynamics engineer.
And he's the one basically kind of outlining the preliminary drafts of these memoranda.
And that was his conclusion.
Okay?
Wow.
Now, it's the same guy.
This is my point here.
This is why I take such time in my books to footnote everything and build one case in one book and move along and explain in the next book what this all means.
Because it's this same individual who's pointing the finger.
After Roswell, in the direction of Nazi Germany, who comes to the conclusion that this cannot possibly explain the sheer numbers of cases that they're confronted with.
And he's correct.
The reason why is if you are an extraterritorial post war Nazi state continuing to develop this stuff, you simply will not have the production capability.
To produce these kinds of numbers of reports and keep your projects secret.
So it's the same guy who, on the basis of the sheer numbers of reports, is also saying there has to be another explanation for the origin of these things and their stupendous performance, and the only thing he can think of is extraterrestrial.
It's the same guy.
Now, what this means for the breakaway civilization group is they've got to entertain.
Both hypotheses.
Okay.
So they have to basically prepare for either situation, either an advanced Nazi, post Nazi organization, and a possible ET presence.
Right.
And something more.
Let's not forget Dolan's crucial insight here that this group is being formed in the Cold War matrix.
So, in other words, they've got three things they've got to deal with.
They've got to deal with the communist bloc.
They've got to deal with whatever this extraterritorial post war Nazi thing is, and they've already imported some of it to this country.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
So, you know, they've got to be thinking that, all right, how much of what they're doing is really for us?
And it's interesting, and I point this out in Roswell and the Reich, that after Roswell, U.S. Army counterintelligence reopens the security vetting file procedures on a lot of these paperclip Nazis.
Oh, that is very interesting, yeah.
Oh, it's extremely interesting.
You know, it's not coincidental.
So, in other words, they've got those two things they're confronted with, and now their same advisor is saying, okay, well, I've talked to these Germans, and yeah, they're saying that, yeah, they heard rumors that they were doing something like this back in the Reich, but I'm dumbfounded.
Where is all the rest of this coming from?
So, we've got to entertain yet another hypothesis here, folks.
Now, put yourself in the shoes of the breakaway civilization.
This means that they are going to have to.
Number one, wage covert operations, holding actions, quite literally, in Europe against the communists, which they do, of course, the Italian elections of 48 and so on and so forth, with all of this money.
Some of it being Axis loot.
And those people are not cooperating unless they get a little influence in the deal, okay?
You see what's going on here?
So they're worried about Cold War developments and they're worried about this post war Nazi international.
Now there's a third thing.
Well, the third thing they've got to worry about is, you know, they've had to come to the conclusion that the sheer numbers of UFOs cannot be accounted for simply by assuming that it's Soviet black projects, post war Nazi black projects, or what have you.
They've got a real problem.
So I think what this means is they've got to use their funding.
To create technologies that can do triple duty.
And I think one of those technologies is the spy satellite.
Why?
Because it allows them to snoop on the Soviet Union.
It also allows them to spy out where in the namest sense are these Nazis flying this stuff from.
Yeah.
And remember, Shulgin's intelligence collection memorandum, when you read it without the spurious extraterrestrial additions, And believe me, those editions are spurious.
There's an original version of the document that doesn't include any of that.
Oh, isn't that interesting?
Yeah.
Yeah, and that's the problem, because what Shulgin is wanting them to find out is where in the name of sense is all this Nazi stuff coming from?
Look for these features of landing gear.
Yeah.
And skis and pontoons and so on and so forth.
Well, in other words, they're not looking for flying saucers being flown by little green men, they're looking for flying saucers being flown by Nazis.
Yeah.
So that's the second thing.
But the third thing, you know, is all right, we've got a capability that can spy on the Soviet Union, but you can also point that capability outward.
You can also eventually send that capability to other planets and try and find out where all this stuff is coming from.
And let's remember what's happening in the 1950s.
You have this same group of Nazis being interviewed, Dr. Hermann Obert, coming to mind in particular.
Saying that, well, you know, these UFO things are coming from other planets and, you know, maybe Mars or Saturn, you know, he's suggesting.
Right.
So close, right?
Yeah, so close, you know.
So, in other words, this breakaway group has a real problem.
I think they embarked on a crash development of technology because of all of this reconnaissance technology.
And then, of course, the long term goal was technology of being able to emulate the UFO.
To quite literally, I think, to play a little bit of gunboat diplomacy with whoever's flying these things around in.
Near Earth space, quite literally.
Do you think that the reverse engineering argument of a crash retrieval idea is.
I know it's interesting.
You mentioned in your book that they have put kind of a meme out there about that.
But how legitimate do you think that is?
I mean, would we have gotten that big jump in technology from reverse engineering in ET Craft, or is that kind of a mythology?
Well, look, again, philosophically, I'm not opposed to the idea of reverse engineering.
But reverse engineering has been used to explain a multitude of human developments.
This is the problem.
And, you know, philosophically, my problem with it is that there is a trend in ufology that looks at virtually every development in the past 50 to 60 years, particularly since the World War, as being the product of some hidden reverse engineering.
Well, okay, if ET keeps crashing things on Earth at a rate that.
That we can reverse engineer all this stuff, pretty soon we're going to have to start crashing things onto ET's homeworld so that they can catch back up with us.
As an argument, philosophically, it goes nowhere.
This is my big problem with the Roswell analysis of so many people looking at the technological aspect of it.
And this is my big problem with Kecksberg.
I'm seeing more data points that suggest that.
These two events are coming from some hidden human technology than anything extraterrestrial.
So, again, I argue on a case by case basis.
You've got to convince me that a particular case that you're saying is extraterrestrial really is.
But, as a general kind of approach or gestalt to things, no, I'm not opposed to it.
I think it is legitimate.
But let's be honest.
If they have this stuff, Then they're not likely to reveal too many details.
And the details that we have heard let's take the famous case of an individual who claims to have worked on some of these sport models and have, he and his cohort have recovered element 115 and kept it around in their house for a couple of hours.
Well, here's the bad news.
Bob Bazaar.
Yeah, as far as I know, element 115, even though it has a much longer.
Half life than the transuranic, some of the heavier transuranic elements, lorenzium and so on, it's still way too short to have any of it laying around in the house.
You're not going to keep it in the fridge, yeah.
Yeah, you're not going to keep it in the fridge for very long.
You know, and again, this is my problem with all of these stories is that when you start looking at the details, they're not making much sense.
Nazi Airship Weapon Mysteries00:15:02
So, again, could they have stuff crashed and recovered?
Yeah.
You know, I do all of this research, Daniel, on Nazi developments in World War II.
I go to speak at UFO conferences, and the first question I'm hit with is well, could the Nazis have done all this because they discovered a crashed flying saucer, reversed engineered it?
Right.
So, in other words, the methodology here prevents you from looking at the scientific papers floating around during the day and finding out what.
Is being talked about or thought about by these people.
And this is what irritates me.
So, again, I'm not philosophically opposed to it, but you've got to convince me.
Yeah, it short circuits the research process.
I see, yeah, it's a sort of pat answer.
It's a pat answer.
And it's really the answer of a fundamentalist who doesn't want to investigate anything.
That's my problem with it.
If all of this Nazi achievement during World War II is simply because they stumbled onto a flying saucer in the Black Forest without any witnesses around, then why bother going to read the papers of Gabriel Krohn?
Why bother trying to figure out why the Nazis put someone like Walter Gerlach in charge of their atom bomb project?
And on and on we could go.
It short circuits the interpretation of events and therefore doesn't require you to dig into them.
Well, one of the.
Things I found really intriguing in the Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations book is when you do go into the airship mystery, which takes us far back beyond the kind of advanced technology.
And it's 1897.
And so, in those sightings and the stories that the occupants actually came out and were completely human and even discussed their technology with the people they came across.
So, we're seeing a very early version there of this breakaway civilization.
And so.
You know, there was a character, Mr. Wilson, who shows up in the contacts.
And, you know, that I think is very interesting because this is a totally different thing.
There's nothing alien about that.
No.
And, you know, basically the idea is that this is some corporation that's in New York that's working with advanced technology, and once or twice they come down and refuel it, or people catch them in the act, that kind of thing.
Right.
So, this is a totally different type of sighting story.
Yeah, it is.
To a certain extent, it is.
For one thing, if you look at the airship mystery, and except for the sake of argument that these sightings are genuine and not just the products of yellow journalism hysteria, if you look at it that way, then you're dealing with a technology very clearly.
You're dealing with a technology that exceeds the later.
Development and reported speeds of Zeppelins.
So, in other words, you're dealing with something different here.
Right.
And it goes completely missing.
Now, it turns up, oddly enough, I talk about this in Roswell and the Reich, it turns up later in Scandinavia before World War II.
Oh, that's interesting.
Yeah.
You have the Swedish and Norwegian air forces investigating reports of mysterious things flying around in their skies.
That are being reported by locals, and they're reporting these huge ships with eight or nine propellers flying around their skies.
So, in other words, propellers are not a, obviously, of any use for interplanetary travel.
So, in other words, you're dealing with a human technology.
And interestingly enough, the Royal Swedish Air Force, after investigating this, came to the conclusion that they were dealing with something coming from, and these are their words, from a secret base.
So, in other words, you have a clear indicator that something continues to go on.
In terms of a secret technological development that's independent of any known human origin, you know, great power or whatever.
So something is going on.
It's very, very clear.
Now, in the airship mystery, I get into that modern Scandinavian aspect of things in Roswell and the Reich.
But I talk again about the airship mystery in Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations because, once again, most people are unaware of this.
There is a German angle.
To that 19th century airship mystery.
And the angle is this that I don't know if you're familiar with the fellow by the name of Charles Delshow, but I talked about him in Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations.
Yeah, I can see the reference.
He was this German American artist that painted these very, very strange pictures of these airships.
And he stated many times that this was the product of a joint German American.
Research effort that was being sponsored by rich capitalists that was conducted in the Northeast, out in California, and ultimately was sponsored by a secret society in Germany called NYMZA.
Now, I'm happy to report that a friend and colleague of mine by the name of Walter Bosley may have cracked what NYMZA is.
Oh, good.
Yeah, he has a little book out called Empire of the Wheel 2.
In which he investigates aspects of the airship mystery, and I report on that in Covert Wars and Clash of Civilizations.
And in actual fact, he thinks that NIMSA is an acronym for a German term.
And I'm not going to mention it here because I think he would be a better one to have on to talk about his discovery.
I hear you.
I hear you.
That is an interesting way.
Oh, yeah, it is.
Because again, you have.
Very clear indication from the record that there are secretive groups in this country and secretive groups, oddly enough, in Germany investigating this stuff.
So, in other words, you're dealing with a consistent pattern over time.
This is what I find very interesting.
You're dealing with a consistent pattern over time that goes back to the 19th century of these two countries in particular developing advanced aerodynamic technology and doing so in secret.
Right.
So, I find all of this very compelling for the idea of a breakaway civilization that Dolan.
Is talking about getting a huge impetus after World War II with the creation of the national security state and then with this enormous increase, I mean, dramatic increase in the sheer numbers of UFO sightings.
And, you know, it's interesting that 1947, the year of Kenneth Arnold, the year of the return of Admiral Byrd from Operation High Jump, the Roswell incident, all of these things happened in 1947, including one of the big UFO flap years.
So all of this is taking place, and I think Dolan is correct that they had to deal with this problem, and it became a national security concern and a primary one, just as high up there, if not higher, ultimately, than.
Than communism or dealing with these post war Nazis.
In terms of just speculating, why do you think 47 was such a key, crucial year?
In terms of UFOs?
Yeah.
I mean, I know that we had the waves and we had the crashes, but is there some reason that you think their presence suddenly became so widespread?
Yeah.
I tend to agree with ufology in that.
This began as a kind of two year lag time response to human nuclear weapons achievement.
Okay.
And again, you'll recall in Covert Wars and Breakaway Civilizations, I spent a whole chapter dealing with UFOs and nukes.
Yes.
Because they do seem to display an inordinate curiosity about human defense systems, installations, and particularly those concerned with nuclear weapons, be it.
Intercontinental ballistic missiles or nuclear weapons storage or nuclear weapons production facilities.
They show an enormous curiosity in these things.
Now, with that said, most ufologists point out that they show up in the United States in 1947 over all these defense installations, and that's two years after the detonation of the A bomb.
But Frank Edwards, the 1960s ufologist, pointed out.
That they first showed up over Scandinavia with the ghost rockets, and he pointed out, well, if so, then they're showing up at the right time at the wrong place.
But my point, as I began to make in the Nazi books, you know, I'm one of those people that thinks that the Germans may actually have acquired the A bomb before the end of the war and tested it, of all places, somewhere in the Baltic Sea.
So if that's the case, then the UFOs are showing up in the right place.
Oh, right.
Well, you.
Yeah, you did mention that there are indications that the Nazis may have performed their own nuclear tests.
Oh, yeah, well, I wrote a whole book on that.
In fact, that book began this whole Nazi series.
It's called Reich of the Black Sun.
Reich of the Black Sun, yes.
Right.
That's the book I kind of lay out the whole Nazi secret weapon case in kind of a summary form, but I kind of focus on the A bomb.
And the reason I'm doing that is to set up.
The context in which the Allied post war legend develops about Allied nuclear engineering superiority and so on and so forth.
And I set it up because I want people to look at things more critically in terms of stories they've been told.
Let's face it, how does the country that basically invents quantum mechanics and invents nuclear science fail to develop the atom bomb?
How does this happen?
That's a good question.
And moreover, when you start examining the record closely, how is it that you have people like Heisenberg or Deepner or Hartek failing to develop an atom bomb during the war, but after the war, when they're interred in Great Britain and they hear about the American A bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the BBC that they're listening to, they figure out how the Allies did it?
Yeah.
So, In other words, their scientific dyslexia that they were apparently suffering during the war suddenly disappears and dispels.
So, you know, I have a little problem with that.
And, you know, the explanations in the public record, you know, considered mainstream, is well, one explanation was Heisenberg simply sabotaged their atom bomb project, which stirred up quite a debate.
And another scholar came along and said, well, basically, no, he didn't.
He was laboring under huge misconceptions about the nature of nuclear fission.
And on and on this goes.
The fact of the matter is that the Germans were enriching uranium and other isotopes, incidentally, on an enormous scale during the war.
And there are all indications that they transferred final stage enrichment uranium to Japan or were in the process of.
Doing so when the war ended.
So, in other words, if you have the capability of enriching uranium to weapons grade purity, then basically all you really have to do at that point is assemble the bomb.
Right.
Well, what's interesting about that is why didn't it happen?
Well, I think it did happen.
Yeah, I think it did.
You know, you get the traditional argument well, if they had it, why didn't they use it?
Well, the problem is you've got to examine the Eastern Front.
There are very weird goings on on the Eastern Front.
And again, I don't want to get too far into detail here, but basically, my thought is if the Nazis are going to use a weapon like that anywhere, they're going to use it not on the Western allies, who they consider more or less Aryans, but misguided and misunderstood.
They're certainly going to use it on their ideological enemies and basically people that they think are subhuman.
Yeah.
Now, there's indications that during the war on the Eastern Front, the Nazis were using all sorts of stuff that they never used on the Western Front.
There are reports as early as 1941 that they're using early versions of fuel air bombs.
Wow.
Yeah, wow.
You know, that might explain why half the casualties of World War II were suffered by the Russians.
Right, right.
You know, and I'm laughing, but I'm not trying.
To make light of the situation.
I understand.
I'm just trying to wake people up and say: Was the Wehrmacht really that good tactically in terms of their tactics and operational systems and so on and so forth on the Eastern Front that they inflicted a kill ratio of almost 10 to 1?
Or was there something else going on there?
Yeah, it doesn't add up.
Yeah, it doesn't add up.
The Bell Project Secrets00:16:06
No, of course not.
Well, you've written about how the Nazis were very interested in alternative.
Forms of energy, and they were looking into physics in a way that could be sort of used for advanced weapons.
So they put a great deal of energy into this project called the Bell that you wrote about.
So interesting and sort of brought that to the surface.
Now, this information only came out, you've said, only after the reunification of Germany in 1990.
So that's when the documents came out.
So we really, we're still at the early stages of understanding what that was.
Yes.
That's quite so.
And so there's extensive testimony about it, so it's not theoretical.
No.
But what exactly was the bell?
Well, this is the problem.
There are.
Now, at least out there, two schools of thought.
One school of thought rejects the analysis of Igor Vitkovsky and Nick Cook and myself that see in the Bell a kind of prototypical anti gravity technology.
This school of thought thinks that the Bell was nothing more than a kind of sophisticated isotope enrichment centrifuge.
And I certainly think there is something to that because when you look at the Bell story, you're dealing with a device that operated at extremely high.
Speeds of mechanical rotation.
So, could this have been developed as part of their atomic bomb program or emerged as part of it?
Yeah, it sure could.
But my problem with that whole analysis is it's ignoring data points in the story in order to get people not to look at the possibility that the Nazis may have achieved some sort of rudimentary field propulsion device.
And I think, you know, I lay out.
The post war story of the Bell, in my opinion, is better than anyone else in that I track aspects of that project to a post war Nazi project that we know existed in Argentina.
And that project did have a lot to do with plasmas, with fusion, and ultimately with the idea of tapping into the zero point energy.
So, tracing the conceptual kind of reverse engineering the concept.
Train back into Nazi Germany at the time, and remembering that Walter Gerlach is the scientist in charge of all of this.
Well, if you look up Walter Gerlach, you find out that he was part of a team, the other one being this famous physicist Stern that won the Nobel Prize for the Stern Gerlach experiment.
Gerlach's specialty wasn't nuclear physics, Gerlach's specialty was things like magnetic spin resonance and polarization.
Particle charge, and he particularly was fascinated by the subject of gravity and the possible connections between what they were dealing with with quantum mechanics at the time and gravity.
So, in other words, this is the wrong guy to have heading up an A bomb project.
Right, yeah.
And this is the guy that is ultimately in charge of the Bell project, which is right up his alley.
Okay, so, yeah, now it makes sense, yeah.
Yeah, now it makes sense because he's dealing in areas of physics that haven't really got anything to do with A bomb development.
But it sure has a lot to do if you're a country like Germany interested in developing alternative sources of energy.
And this they are certainly doing, and this is partly what I think the bell was about.
We do know, and I've said over and over, that I think the bell is the real kernel.
To the myth of Nazi UFOs.
But let me be very clear the bell did not do anything other, according to some reports, than levitate.
It didn't pull any sudden maneuvers.
It didn't pull any right angle turns at high speeds.
It just floated.
That's all it did.
And when it was turned on, it killed everything around it.
That was problem number two.
You're not going to have a little Nazi crawling into this thing and flying it around.
But it's just not going to happen.
But the significance is they did apparently achieve some.
Form of field propulsion with this thing.
And would that be of keen interest?
Well, obviously keen interest to anybody.
In fact, if you follow the story of the Bell, the Nazis, as they saw they were losing the war in 1945, the Nazis actually had 60 of the scientists that were working on this project murdered.
Oh.
Because the Soviets were advancing into that area of Silesia, of course, and the Nazis simply didn't want any word of this project to get out.
Now, stop and consider.
Put this into context.
As I say, I've done a great deal of research on the German atom bomb.
I think that uranium fuel, enriched uranium, and working atom bomb components were deliberately transferred from Nazi Germany.
To the United States of America by none other than Martin Bormann in a dirty, shady deal that was made in 1945.
I outlined that whole scenario in a book of mine called The Nazi International.
So let's just take the argument here as a given, accept it for the sake of argument, that Bormann is orchestrating the transfer of A bomb components, functioning, working A bomb components, to the United States.
He's seeing to it.
That the United States gets the creme de la creme of the Nazi rocket scientists and jet scientists and ramjet supersonic scientists and so on and so forth.
Right.
In other words, people have to understand that it is the Nazis driving who gets what at the end of the war.
Yeah.
Well, you do great research on Borman.
You find out things about him.
And this is somebody who really, it looks like he faked his own death as well.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
But you found also in your research that there were checks cashed to him in the 60s, right?
That is an amazing story.
Well, yeah, I recount that story in the Nazi International.
This was actually a discovery that was made by Paul Manning, who was a CBS journalist, a close associate of the old CBS anchorman, Ed Murrow, you know, the pre Concrite Concrite.
Right.
And Manning investigated.
Bormann's survival in a book called Martin Bormann, Nazi in Exile.
And he did so because he was incensed at the way that his fellow journalists had treated one of his friends, another investigative journalist by the name of Ladislaus Farrago, that wrote a book called Martin Bormann and the Fourth Reich.
Aftermath was the title of the book.
And basically, Farrago had discovered in the archives of Argentina's Central Intelligence Agency, all the documents about Morton's survival in Argentina and how the Argentinian security services were keeping him under surveillance.
Wow.
Yeah.
So, you know, this was totally dismissed by everybody at the period.
No, no, he died here in Berlin at the Weidendahmer Bridge.
Oh, wait a minute, we forgot.
No, that was over here at the Lehrter train station.
Oh, yes.
It was another one of these Nazis that we're not really clear how he died or when or under what circumstances.
Yeah, interesting story.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So Manning goes down and investigates all this, and he discovers that Martin Bormann in the early 1960s.
I think it was the 60s, had cashed a check for a couple million dollars, I think it was.
And the check was drawn on Manufacturers Hanover and Chase Manhattan.
Okay?
Wow.
And it was cashed through, cleared through Deutsche Bank in Buenos Aires.
And here's the kicker the check was written over his own signature.
Unbelievable.
Yeah, it really is.
I mean, it's just breathtaking when you stop and consider what's really happening here.
Because, you know, and I think the picture's fairly clear.
I think Bormann is orchestrating, ultimately, he's the mastermind deciding who gets what technology, where it's going.
And he's also ultimately the one behind the European end of negotiating how all this Nazi loot is going to be used in the post war recovery.
That, I think, is the.
So we sort of partnered with him on a certain level.
Oh, sure, absolutely.
After the war.
Absolutely.
I'll tell you why.
Guess who is during World War II and for a close period after World War II, who is the American intelligence officer for Latin America?
I have no idea.
Nelson Rockefeller.
Unbelievable.
Wow.
So, you know.
Yeah, there you go.
Wow.
So, you know, I think it's fairly clear what happened after the war.
But anyway, you know, we're talking about the technology transfer in the Bell.
Well, now that makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, putting all of this into context, why do the Nazis murder the Bell scientists?
Well, it's very clear.
They want to keep this one project to themselves.
Right.
America can have the A bomb and the jet scientists and the rocket scientists and the supersonic scientists.
Aerodynamicists and so on and so forth.
And the Russians can have all the middle managers for all the rocket projects so that they can reconstruct the document trail.
But we're keeping this to ourselves.
And what do you think happened to the Bell Project?
I think, like I said, I think aspects of it were continued after the war in Argentina.
That's what that whole book, Nazi International, is about.
Yeah.
Um,.
And again, I think it was.
It's such a huge story, Daniel.
I can't even begin.
The reason I've written so many books on the Nazi thing is you can't possibly cover all aspects of it in one book.
Their influence is so pervasive after the war.
It is.
Yeah.
It is.
What do you think has happened to the post war Nazi group influence, and where can we see sort of the main influence now?
Oh, easy.
I think you can see it on every stoplight in America.
You know, we are slipping into, well, I think we're at the bottom of the slide, not at the top.
We have slipped into a fascist police state snitch culture where every aspect is monitored, reported.
You've got dummy crooks and republic thugs in Congress wanting to expand the power of the state far beyond anything.
This would have been sort of a Hitlerian wet dream in terms of the expansion of state power.
Well, the control is unbelievable.
Yeah, it's just unreal.
You know, this is.
I feel like I've gone to sleep and woke up in another country.
You know, I see the influence culturally all the time.
Now, does this.
I think what you're really asking, though, is does this group still exist?
If so, where is it?
Are there any places that we can point to where it still has some sort of front organization or concentration?
Yeah.
And again, my answer is tentative because I haven't researched this to any depth.
But what I have researched in the books thus far convinces me that we're looking at two signals of its continuing influence.
One is radical Islam, because again, the Nazi connection to this, whatever this is, is very palpable and very clear.
It actually began, really, during the war.
It continued after the war.
And again, I talk about this in the Nazi International.
It continued after the war and had its first manifestation in the overthrow of King Farouk of Egypt in 1954.
Everybody will tell you in the public history books that that was a CIA plot.
True, it was.
But who were the soldiers on the ground?
Ah.
Who was in charge of the day to day coup d'etat business?
Was it German intelligence?
Well, people like SS Lieutenant Colonel Otto Skorzeny, General Major Wilhelm Farnbacher, Hjalmar Schach, former president of the Reichsbank, just a wonderful group of people.
So, in other words, yeah, on the surface it's CIA, but scratch beneath the surface and it's Nazi.
That's the problem.
Yeah, and that's the formation of the Muslim Brotherhood, even goes back to the beginning.
Bingo, exactly.
Yeah.
And again, you have Nazi influence with the Muslim Brotherhood, you have Nazi influence with Yasser Arafat and the PLO, believe it or not, Nazi influence with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and on and on we could go.
So I see that as one manifestation of it.
The other manifestation, the one that is lurking much more deeply and quietly and suspiciously, is what used to be called the World Anti Communist League, which was based in Taiwan.
Again, another notorious kind of Nazi CIA rabid right front group.
But that has since, with the collapse of the Soviet Union, it's simply changed its name.
People think the World Anti Communist League went out of business.
No, it simply changed its name.
And it's now the World League for Democracy or something like this.
But no, I think the group is still around.
I think it's influential.
Dangerous Factional Infighting00:03:41
I have anecdotal stories that I won't bother mentioning on the air that I've heard.
I haven't been able to verify any of them, but people have told me some very interesting things that give me pause.
Well, and it seems like their influence has been absorbed into you.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, and so looking for them in individual groups and things like that may not be the way to find them.
In a way, they've sort of blended into the power structure and just maintained their.
They've been very successful at penetration and blending in.
Now, since we're talking about this breakaway group, the model I like to use is of a mafia.
You've got several different capos represented in this New World Order thing, or whatever you wish to call it, several different factions, corporations, military industrial complex, then you've got your traditional geopolitical alignments and interests, and so on and so forth.
This is one all big, huge, omnipotent, omnicompetent, all powerful, all clever conspiracy.
I simply don't.
I do view it as a network of coalescing interests that are not afraid to go to war with each other from time to time when they feel that their personal or factional interest is being threatened.
So, yeah, it's like the mafia.
You've got the capos, and they can all sit around and drink wine and kiss each other's rings at the conference table while out on the streets their lackeys are shooting at each other.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
They're not so much a unified group as people like to portray.
Well, you know, the NWO, the Breakaway Civilization, it's one group that's making these decisions and doing it, and they're all happy with each other.
No.
In fact, they're trying to take each other out as they're moving along.
Yeah, well, the other thing, yeah, I think you're exactly right.
The other thing is, and I've said this many times, as they get closer to the end game, watch for the factional infighting to increase.
Oh.
Because the closer they get to the goal, the more they're going to fall apart by the nature of the case.
It's human nature.
One faction is going to want to dominate, and the other factions aren't going to want them to.
It's just, you know, it's human nature.
And, you know, I don't see one vast, all powerful conspiracy.
And the other thing is, I think that there are clear signs that this factional infighting is going on because I think there are some little tiny indicators every now and then that.
That the Western financial elite part of that mafia like organization is panicked.
I think that they are under extreme and severe pressure like they've never been under before.
Wow.
And so they're tightening their controls that much more.
Yeah, they're retrenching.
Let's put it that way.
They played a game or were trying to play a game and now they.
They discover that the other people that they thought were playing the same game aren't playing the same game.
That's the problem.
So they're busily trying to retrench and shore up their base of power, which is North America.
Well, it sounds very dangerous if they're trying to retrench.
It sounds like a dangerous period of time for them and for us.
It is.
It is.
Very dangerous.
JFK Assassination Conspiracy00:03:51
You mentioned coalescence of interests, and so I have to just go to that.
Briefly, because we have the JFK 50th anniversary of the assassination coming up.
You did a really fantastic book on that, which was LBJ and the conspiracy to kill Kennedy, a coalescence of interest, and really outlined in that book a much better case for the collaboration of these different groups as opposed to running away with one theory.
And everything in there was very plausible, and the research was very good, even though I think you mentioned that you were under pressure to do the book.
In kind of a short period of time.
Yeah, I was.
My publisher was kind of caught in a bad situation that the book had actually been contracted for some other author, and I don't know the exact circumstances, but the other author couldn't complete the book.
And my publisher turned to me and asked me if I would do it, and I said, sure, how much time do I have?
And he said, something like two months.
Oh, yeah, there you go.
Yeah, I was a bit under the gun on it.
But it turned out fantastic.
It's a really excellent book.
Well, thank you.
I'd like to ask you in relation to the JFK assassination.
I've read the book and I have a general understanding, but what would you say was the crux?
You know, you really introduced this whole NASA aspect that I'd never seen before in relation to the JFK assassination.
And could you tell me a little bit about how you came to that conclusion?
Well,.
That aspect has actually been out there in the JFK literature, percolating sort of in the underground for a long, long time, in a document called the Torbitt document that was drawn up by a southern Texas lawyer in late 1967, early 1968, just as the Garrison investigation had wound down.
And what it is, is it's really kind of a summary of.
The Garrison investigation files.
And this is what makes it so unusual.
And most people don't know this because Garrison himself doesn't talk about any of this at any great length in his book, On the Trail of the Assassins.
But Garrison does briefly mention that he found these very weird NASA connections at the Riley Coffee Company and Lee Oswald and so on and so forth, that there was something lurking on the edges.
Oswald worked for Riley.
Yeah, Oswald worked for the Riley Coffee Company and actually boasted that he was going to get a job at NASA.
Oh, how unusual.
Oh, yeah.
The Kennedy assassination just has the word weird written all over it.
Yeah, definitely.
But the NASA connection, I think, is kind of the tip of the iceberg, Daniel.
I think that Kennedy.
The reason I call it coalescence of interest is Kennedy managed during his short presidency to piss off just about every faction within this deep state or deep politics, as Professor Peter Dale Scott likes to call it, that he possibly could.
I mean, you know, he was elected with help from the mob, and what does he do?
He sits his brother Bobby on the mob.
Right.
You know, and Bobby.
Turns around and kicks Carlos Marcello out of the country.
Nazi Intelligence in CIA00:03:21
Yeah, that was very aggressive.
Yeah, the whole thing.
He draws up a national security memorandum in which he says, I'm going to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces, and he actually does for a very brief period and has this hand delivered to General Lemnitzer, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
And then later, when Lemnitzer is trying to sell Kennedy on the Operation Northwoods idea, Kennedy sacks him and puts him in charge of NATO, kind of in exile.
Well, Lemnitzer turns around, of course, and really.
Goes gung ho on the whole Gladio thing.
So, you know, this spills out in so many different directions, it's not even funny.
But the other thing Kennedy does, you know, when he threatens to smash the CIA, what people don't realize is he's also threatening to smash the power structure or front for the Nazis.
Because, again, people have to understand that as World War II is winding down, General Sieber and Alan Dulles and all these people over in Germany are making dirty deals.
With Nazi intelligence.
And in fact, one Nazi intelligence organization, their military intelligence, on the entire Eastern Front is simply rolled over, lock, stock, and Nazi into the post war CIA and under nominal American intelligence, but the day to day operational decisions are still being made by the same German general that ran it during World War II.
This is Reinhard Galen.
Yeah, Reinhard Galen.
Yeah, that is very interesting.
Your research on that is amazing.
Well, it's not my research.
I'm just reporting on what Galen himself said in his memoirs.
Get it straight from the Nazis' mouth.
Right.
You know, and it's breathtaking because what this means is no sooner has Truman signed the National Security Act of 1947 into law and created these intelligence agencies than the CIA has already compromised its civilian charter because.
The virtually entire Soviet desk, the human intelligence, the analysis even, is being run by Galen's organization.
In fact, it's so bad, Daniel, that at one period during the late 1940s, when Truman is still in office, it's so bad that the CIA is simply taking Galen's reports, okay, and typing them up word for word on CIA stationery and passing it on to Truman.
They're not even bothering to change anything.
So we have a Nazi general briefing President Truman on the intentions of the Soviet Union.
Now, do you think he might have a slightly jaundiced view of things?
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, and Truman seemed probably in over his head, too.
So it seemed like when he assumed the presidency, it was completely sort of unexpected.
Murky White Russian Ties00:11:36
Oh, yeah.
Well, of course it was.
And, you know, he didn't know.
The existence of half the things that he found out, you know, in those first 48 hours of briefings.
Roosevelt kept him entirely in the dark.
So he's left out of the loop and he comes in.
Oh, he was left entirely out of the loop by the final Roosevelt administration.
So when Truman assumes office, like you say, he's totally in the dark.
So anyway, Kennedy comes along and he's threatening to smash the CIA into a thousand pieces.
So he's created enemies not only of the CIA, not only in the Joint Chiefs of Staff, not only in the mob, but Nazis.
Yeah, he's crazy.
We'll add to this on top of everything else.
He wants to get rid of the oil depletion allowance.
So he's got the Texas oilmen mad at him.
And who are the Texas oilmen reliant upon for their intelligence?
But guess who?
General Galen.
Oh, yeah.
Oh, there's your Nazi connection to JFK.
And, you know, this is something that I think probably I'm the only one other than May Brussels that's ever talked about the Nazi connection to the Kennedy assassination.
And there is one, you know, just like everything else.
Well, you spotlighted.
Yeah, you spotlighted DeMoran Shields, George DeMoran Shields.
Oh, yeah.
So close to Oswald, and he had that sort of Nazi tie, even that kind of white Russian community, and his connections were closely allied with that, apparently.
Well, yeah, I used to be Eastern Orthodox and largely in the Russian jurisdiction, so I knew personally, I knew the clergyman for the Oswalds.
Interesting.
Yeah, so there's a lot more that I will never talk about that story, but.
The connection with DeMorenschilt is very interesting because this was a kind of sophisticated man, cultured man.
He was an oil geologist.
So, in other words, he was well known to the Hunts, the Merkisons, and all the Texas oil people.
And I do mean all the Texas oil people.
This is a very closed community.
So.
I'll leave it for the listener to work out what all this means.
But de Morenschild, during World War II, was suspected as being a Nazi spy.
And of course, his real name was von Morenschild.
And he changed it to De after World War II.
And he comes from, as you say, from White Russia, a little town in White Russia called Mozir.
And Oswald, of course, was introduced around to the White Russian community.
Well,.
I suspect, since De Morenschilt is also spying on CIA bases in Guatemala at one point, that were going to be used to launch the Bay of Pigs, I suspect that De Morenschilt, really,
who many authors see as a kind of a CIA figure, I think this is not looking at the details closely enough, because when you look at all these details, what you have is a man who's the probable liaison between the Texas oil men and West German intelligence, represented by Galen.
Okay, that would make a lot of sense, yeah.
Yeah, and let's remember the other thing that people forget is that Oswald's comrades and buddies in Japan not only heard him talking Russian, but guess what else he was talking?
German?
German.
Oh, I've never heard that.
Oh, yeah.
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
So, you know, when Oswald defects to the Soviet Union and then is able to get out, who is it that is his Western contact over there that's enabling him to do all this?
Well, people have speculated that it's the CIA.
Well, okay.
But who is the CIA's on the ground boots at that time?
Well, it's Galen once again.
So, you know, Oswald to me, Daniel, has Galen's organization and his handprints all over him.
You've got de Morenchilt, you've got the White Russians, you've got his buddies in Japan, the German thing, and then this whole strange episode of a defection to the Soviet Union.
And then being stationed to Minsk, which is, guess what?
The capital of what?
White Russia.
Right.
Well, these white Russians, they're anything but communists, right?
No, exactly.
In this country, the white Russian emigre community tended to be very, very right wing.
So, what is Oswald doing with these people if he was supposedly a communist?
Exactly.
What do you think that Oswald was?
I mean, obviously a patsy, but what do you think he was in the grand scheme of things?
What were they doing with him to set him up to be the Chief Fall Guy.
Well, I do think that he was, he had to have been some low level intelligence operative.
I think this is fairly clear.
And he was probably himself under the impression that he was doing some sort of security detail in Dallas on that day.
I think he realized very quickly when the assassination occurred that, oh my God, I'm being set up.
And he made that clear.
The news shows, you know, that he was taped in Dallas.
You know, when you say, I'm just a passive, well, he was enough, informed enough, probably by his intelligence work, that, you know, they would sheep dip people and set them up to take falls for certain things.
And he probably realized at that point that that's what had happened to him.
But I do think that he was.
I tend not to think that Oswald was simply an innocent.
Like many people in the assassination community do.
I don't think that.
I think he had clear intelligence handprints all over him that began in Japan at Atsugi Air Base, and that these intelligence fingerprints, given where he ends up, given his connection to DeMoran Schultz and the Texas oilman, I think those intelligence fingerprints are ultimately coming from General Galen, not so much the CIA.
Galen is a murky, murky character.
And the other problem, of course, with Oswald is, and this again I mentioned in the Coalescence of Interest book, is that when he is actually arrested, when they interview him and then go search his apartments and so on, in his diary notebook, guess whose phone number he has?
Who?
George Lincoln Rockwell.
Now, who is that?
That's the president of the American Nazi Party.
Right, right.
So, in other words, this guy is.
He's got too many strange, strange fingerprints on him for me to think that he's entirely innocent.
Well, the Galen part with him makes a lot of sense because Oswald comes up as such a mystery, and they're always trying to go through these different channels like, oh, let's look at his Cuba incident in Mexico City, or let's look at him in the Soviet Union.
Right.
Let's connect him to the FBI.
Let's connect him to the CIA.
I'll be honest and say I tend to think that some of this in the assassination community keeps getting repeated because they don't want anyone to start looking at the Nazi angle.
And there is one.
That's the problem.
There's a huge one.
Yeah.
Well, the Nazi aspect, you were saying that Kennedy basically really.
Threatened the post war Nazi base by going after the CIA, and that was sort of the first thing.
Not only that, let's remember something else that Kennedy was doing.
He was in secret negotiations with Nikita Khrushchev to have a joint Soviet American moon program.
And he had issued an order to the CIA to review all of their UFO files because he wanted to take those cases that could be turned over to the Soviet Union to turn it over to them.
Now, if your Nazis in the space program are.
Anywhere close to having an ear tuned to any of these goings on, and you know that there are certain technologies implied in all of this, would you want to see any of this turned over to your hated enemy, the Soviet Union?
No.
Right, right.
So there's a huge space aspect, I think, lurking behind all of this in the Kennedy assassination.
And this is the von Braun being very deep in the space program and also being a major Nazi.
Oh, yeah.
Definitely.
The real Nazi to look at in terms of the space program isn't so much von Braun, it's a fellow by the name of Dr. Kurt Davis.
Okay.
Yeah, I don't know if you've read any of the books that deal with him or talk about him in detail, but he is a crucial, significant figure.
Okay, I definitely will.
Just to kind of round out the Kennedy part.
So he's making these moves.
He's sharing intel with the Soviet Union about space exploration.
He's not going to do a space race.
And in addition to having all these other enemies, that is possibly the straw that broke the camel's back.
It brings in the post war Nazi influence through the intelligence agencies, and they participate in removing him.
And I know there are so many aspects around the assassination, and I don't want to.
Simplify it too much, but I'm trying to get that the NASA part is really could be linked back to this strong Nazi presence within NASA at the time.
Yes, yes.
It's really fascinating.
Really, really fascinating.
And, you know, it's amazing how much silence.
I was watching a program on JFK 50th assassination anniversary, and it was just a sort of a Regular ABC News type thing.
And absolutely ridiculous trotting out the kind of disproven facts at this point about the Warren Commission and all this kind of thing.
And it is very interesting because you talk about a breakaway civilization.
I mean, you have a regular populace who's kind of aware of more of these facts.
Defining the Deep State00:03:19
And you have this very strange news broadcast that seems like it's coming from a completely different reality about these things.
But of course, it's a very well guarded secret even now.
Yeah, yeah.
They're never going to admit what went on because to admit what went on in the assassination is to admit certain fundamental problems with the American legends.
In other words, that, you know, this is a free country, we're the best of the best, you know, American exceptionalism, we won World War II, we won World War I. If it hadn't been for us, they wouldn't have been won, you know, on and on all this goes.
They're never going to admit it because to admit it challenges the nature of the assumptions of power in this country.
You have a deep state, you have the public state that assumes all the risks and liabilities, and then you have that breakaway national intelligence group, national security group.
So, you know, to admit anything is they're just never going to do that.
They're going to keep their fictions going until.
Every last pew is empty.
Yeah, right.
Do you think that, you know, you mentioned Peter Dale Scott's work earlier.
Do you think that Peter Dale Scott and his reference to the deep state and the deep politics is the same as saying the breakaway civilization?
Are those the same thing?
No.
Okay, how are they different?
Well, by the breakaway civilization, I'm meaning something that comes out of the net or is located within the national security establishment secret.
Black projects, establishment itself.
By the deep state, he's meaning something much broader.
He's meaning essentially that coalescence of interests that I'm talking about in JFK.
He's meaning the mafia, the military industrial complex, the financial sector.
He's meaning all of that.
Right, right.
I can see the distinction there.
Well, that's really fantastic.
And the new book is Covert Wars.
And the Clash of Civilizations.
Clash of Civilizations, right.
This current book is The Covert Wars and the Breakaway Civilizations, or that was the one just before, and that's the one I have.
Right.
Really outstanding.
Thank you.
And that you are really prolific.
You do this amazing ability.
You have this amazing ability to turn these books out quickly, it seems, that you really have these books coming, but they are unbelievably interesting and well researched.
Oh, thank you.
And your work is absolutely excellent.
I want to thank you so much for giving us all this great information.
My pleasure.
Thank you for having me on, Daniel.
Thank you for joining me for this fascinating overview on the roots of the breakaway civilization with Dr. Joseph Farrell.
You can find more special reports and interviews at youtube.com forward slash dark journalists.