Richard Dolan and the host dissect a covert "breakaway civilization" where elite scientists, funded by illicit sources, hide advanced propulsion technology from public view. They analyze how Reagan-era executive orders crippled FOIA access, allowing private contractors to manage secrecy while intelligence agencies infiltrate academia to suppress findings. The discussion references Ingo Swan's remote viewing encounters with triangular craft and theorizes that distorted witness accounts stem from MKUltra mind control. Ultimately, the episode argues that a massive, unrecorded sighting or AI-driven leaks are the only paths to forcing disclosure of this black-budget world holding humanity's future hostage. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Intellectual History of UFO Research00:14:52
Hi, this is Dark Journalist.
Today I'll be discussing the breakaway civilization with the man who coined the term, author and historian Richard Dolan.
Now, Richard recently scored a huge success with his daring book, UFOs and the National Security State, Volume 2, The Cover Up Exposed.
In the book, he describes the emergence of a covert group within the nation's security apparatus during the Cold War and their development of advanced technology completely hidden from public view.
Now, UFOs and government secrecy are controversial topics, and we will journey right into the heart of the matter.
Here we go UFOs and the Breakaway Civilization with Richard Dolan.
It took me a long time in this field to come to the conclusions I did, but here's how I did.
It's primarily a matter of logic.
You have a phenomenon that presents itself again and again and again to the national security community, not just of America, but of other nations as well.
It's obviously there.
So then you ask another logical question.
This is what I did, which is all right, so this is real.
Where has our media been?
Where has our journalistic community been?
Now, Richard, I understand you've just completed work on a new book that will be released soon.
Can you give us a preview here of what it's about?
I'll just give a plug for the book because I am excited about it.
And just in two minutes, it's called UFOs for the 21st Century Mind.
It's a fresh overview of the entire topic of UFOs.
I mean, everything.
The history, Which I've got a lot of that background.
The politics, the experiences of contact that people have, and trying to understand what that is.
The science, the strange science connected to UFOs, everything from propulsion technology to space time to consciousness itself.
These are all cutting edge areas of science that I think need to be understood in a contemporary ufology.
I have quite a bit devoted to how to be a critical thinker in an age of.
Fake YouTube videos and copy and paste Facebook posts and things like that.
So, the book deals with all of that and much more.
I think it's, I simply try to incorporate all of the important issues that concern UFO research, UFO research today, in this one book.
It'll be about 300 pages.
And as I like to think of it, if you're an experienced person in the field, I think this would be a very interesting book.
But if you're a complete noob, if you know nothing, this would be the exact book you should start with.
And in a sophisticated way to give you a very, very good introduction to the entire field in a fresh 21st century environment.
So, the National Security State, that was the first book.
Right.
And then you had this book, which I've been reading and which is terrific.
I really think it's an outstanding book from so many angles, and there's so many stimulating things in there about, you know, when you cover a lot of the things that happened in the 70s.
With the FOIA requests and how things were just more open.
I think that's a very interesting aspect that people don't really notice.
But when you think about like the culture had it with Close Encounters, the movie, and all that.
And then all of a sudden it sort of goes away and it comes back in different ways.
But certainly that's a high point.
Yeah, absolutely.
That book, that second volume of that series, and there will be a third, by the way, it will happen.
But I'm still, I feel closer to that particular book than anything else I've ever written.
It took me a long enough time.
But if you really study how I put it together, there's really three fundamental threads that go into that book.
Thread number one would be the important sightings or encounters of that period of time, 1970s and 80s, up to 1991.
So, in a sense, it's almost like an encyclopedia.
You could say, Oh, I wonder what Dolan has to say on the Travis Walton case.
So, you could refer to that, and you'd find, hopefully, a very good, concise, but complete account of it that would satisfy you.
And all other encounters the Hudson Valley wave, the Hess Dolan lights, the Gulf Breeze sightings, and everything else.
Bob Lazar.
And then thread two would be the politics, as I see it.
That is the analysis of what agencies were interested in this.
Is there a cover up?
Who's in charge?
Is it the president?
Is it someone or some group beyond the president, and so forth?
And those are the types of questions I deal with.
The FOIA section, Freedom of Information Act, is part of that as well.
But then there's a third thread, which I've actually found at least as fascinating as the other two.
And that's, you could say, our research into the topic.
You could look at it in a sense as our consciousness trying to grasp this incredible mystery.
Where researchers were in the early 1970s was one place.
Where they were by the end of the Cold War, 1991, was a very different place.
And that journey is a fascinating one.
It's kind of like an intellectual history.
And I really don't think that that was done in any adequate way previously.
And that was a fun part.
And then really weaving those together against the backdrop of a world in dramatic transformation with the end of the Cold War, the origin of the world of computing, the internet, and so forth, all of that transformed our world.
That's what I really tried to capture.
And.
You know, as with every history that's ever been written, none are final versions, none are the final word.
At some point, I hope there will be other researchers who will write their own interpretation of those events and they may improve and correct certain things that I put in there.
That's normal.
Maybe a few things I put in there will stand the test of time, but that's really what I tried to do.
And I was happy with it when it was finished, and I'm still happy with that book.
Now, Richard, you've been studying this issue for over 20 years.
Where do you think we are now in terms of UFO research and investigation?
Where do you think we've plateaued currently?
Do you think that we are moving forward or are we having problems?
Well, we are definitely having problems, but we're not necessarily at a standstill.
I'm not sure.
Problem number one is that there is really not an adequate Level of organization for researchers to pool their talents.
What we have are a bunch of people running around making their contributions, having our conversations, just like you and I are having it now, sharing information.
But there's not an organization that has shown itself to be up to the job of investigating raw UFO reports, which I feel is still necessary, separating out The legitimate reports from the BS.
Now, there's MUFON, the Mutual UFO Network.
MUFON is supposed to do that, and to a limited extent, they do that.
But I have to say, a very limited extent.
And then what they do not do, what they really have never done in an adequate way, and they certainly don't do now, is find a way to publicize and release their findings so that the public can really work off of that.
I don't even know every year how many reports MUFON.
Even gets.
That's something like five or six thousand.
What percentage of those reports are investigated?
We don't know.
What percentage of those investigations give us a truly unknown case as opposed to something that's prosaic?
Again, we don't know.
And it seems to me that for a true, and you know, this also includes analysis of YouTube videos, of which there are hundreds every year now.
No one can keep up with this.
Every week, every single week, People will send me videos of UFOs on YouTube every single week.
Richard, what do you think of this?
What do you think of that?
And, you know, the fact is that I don't know better than anybody else what these are.
I have to use my own research skills to get to the bottom of it, which anyone else should be able to do, but yet they come to me.
So, what do we need to do when you get a YouTube video?
Well, one, you have to determine to whatever extent possible is this a hoax or not?
A lot of them are hoaxes.
You have to then find out if it's not a hoax, are there any other witnesses?
I mean, it's just a basic investigation that's necessary with all of these.
And nine.
More than 90% of the time, there's no follow up investigation with any of these videos.
They're just anonymously almost put out there.
So, what we really need is we need some kind of global organization.
Okay, so a new global organization that can collect and analyze these sightings and their implications.
Now, how close do you think we are to developing something like that?
It seems to me that we're on the cusp of making it happen.
We're in a whole new world here.
20 years ago, there was no internet, 10 years ago, there was no YouTube.
10 years ago, there was no Google Translate.
All of these things are now just getting into place.
So, we're starting to get a kind of global technological infrastructure, I think, that will allow us in the US, in China, in Africa, in Europe, for us to somehow begin a process of working together, which I think we need to do.
The other thing we've got to do is do it in a way that keeps us free of intelligence community infiltration.
This is everywhere.
It's everywhere.
This is going to make me sound like some paranoid conspiracy person, but it is a fact.
The United States intelligence community has infiltrated pretty much everything that matters in this world, and that includes UFO research.
Now, do you think that their presence tripped up the initial sort of push for UFO knowledge from the government, say back in the 70s and 80s?
The organizations got infiltrated, and then they became sort of, you know, from there they downsized, they disappeared, they became ineffective.
And so they were left with this kind of vacuum.
And then once in a while, it gets back up there again, and then they get taken down.
That's exactly what happens.
That is exactly what happens.
And the way that it's really ingenious.
Rewind the clock.
Let's go back to the 1940s and 50s.
So let's say we're in a control group, and our job is to contain this explosive matter of UFOs.
And it is incredibly explosive.
Think about it.
It's.
Something that implies other beings, let's just say, okay, seems like it to me, beings who are not from here.
That's an existential problem of the highest magnitude right there.
But then it also means that if something like Roswell happened, I do think something like Roswell definitely happened.
That means we've got technology that is off the charts in terms of how advanced it is.
Do you honestly think we're going to want to share that with the Russians or any other?
No, of course not.
You're going to want to study it.
You're going to want to use it.
It's a dangerous weapon, essentially, that needs to be contained.
And it's also a tremendous money making opportunity if you have enough scientists who study it in the black budget world and so forth.
So, no, you don't want to contain this UFO matter at all events.
So, how do you do it?
That's the real question in what is ostensibly an open and free society where you get free inquiry through the universities, scientific community, whatever.
Well, it's actually easier than you'd think.
All right, scientific community, that's not hard.
You control it through funding.
You control it through placing your people at strategic points within that community.
This happened in the 1950s and 60s.
The most prominent debunker of UFOs was a Harvard astronomer named Donald Menzel.
Menzel, as an astronomer at Harvard, debunking UFOs, that's about as much street cred as you're going to want, right?
Who's going to fight, who's going to mug Donald Menzel in the halls of academia?
Answer basically, no one or very few people.
Right.
Well, it turns out that we've now learned this is through nice research of Stanton Friedman that Menzel had a high level crypto clearance and was working with organizations like the National Security Agency, CIA, and others.
So Menzel was deep in the world of intelligence.
Is this a coincidence?
Well, you can decide if you want that it's just a matter of chance serendipity.
I don't really think so.
What you have, in other words, is you've got these people positioned so that if some community college professor decides to go into the field of UFOs and maybe do some good work, guess what?
One of the big dogs, like Menzel or someone else, will just smack him down.
This happens within academia and the world of science, it happens in the world of journalism, it happens, it's in the political arena, it's everywhere.
And again, I would emphasize this is not just.
Rambling conspiracy theory.
Anyone who's done real studies on the history of the intelligence community and its relationship to academia, there's a classic book that came out over 20 years ago by a scholar named Robin Winks called Cloak and Gown.
And that's just one study of the relationship of CIA with Yale University.
It's a very good book, it's typical.
We know that the CIA had its people within mainstream American media and journalism for years.
There was a classic article by the reporter Carl Bernstein of Watergate fame, almost 40.
Intelligence Community and Academia Ties00:16:05
Years ago in Rolling Stone magazine, where he indicated 400 mainstream American journalists have been on the CIA payroll without Americans knowing.
Well, that's pretty outrageous.
Indeed.
And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
And the CIA then said, oh, well, yes, you have to love how the CIA puts this in their very legalistic terminology.
We did do that as a Cold War exegesis, but we no longer have paid relationships with American journalists, blah, blah, blah, blah.
In other words, You know, you don't need paid relationships.
That's the thing.
If you're CIA and I'm a journalist, believe me, I'd have to be leapfrogging over other journalists just to get to you.
It's a career maker.
In the American media today, they all want a relationship with the Pentagon, with CIA, and so forth.
My point is very simple because I don't want to get too off track and digress here.
But the way to contain this, this is a very, very explosive topic.
It needs to be contained, and you have to do it through pervasive influence over the main institutions of communication in our society.
Media, academia, and so on.
And it's been done.
So they do it.
It doesn't mean that you slam the lid down 100%.
It's impossible to do that.
So, what you have to do is you have to find a way to disable the information that does come out.
And you control what I like to call the official truth, the officially established truth.
Let's go into that then.
There have been a few times when this has been raised in the public consciousness and it's gotten away from them, and how they put the genie back in the bottle.
It never quite got out, but take the Phoenix Lights, for example.
That would be a case where I think if it hit now, that might cause the kind of disclosure that you talked about so much, where it would just get away from them because it was too massive an event.
And you've mentioned before that there's going to be, you believe, at some point, an event that just will be too hard to ignore, too hard to pass over.
I think so, yeah.
Maybe I'm taking this as a matter of faith, but I do think it's likely.
And yes, I agree.
I think the Phoenix Lights 1997, had it happened a few hours earlier in daylight, that could have done it.
Or if it were to happen now, that could do it.
I'm not 100% sure that it could do it because, I mean, the fact is that there are what appear to me to be some very, very good UFO sightings that do make it to YouTube.
They're not all fake.
Some of them I think are quite compelling, and yet they haven't made that breakthrough.
But it's true, like what happened in Phoenix was extraordinary.
It was seen by an entire city.
It seemed to be this enormous event.
And I think it can happen again.
I think that we are primed.
I think there's one of two ways that the shit is going to hit the fan, okay?
The first way would be a mass sighting can happen.
And, you know, we're in an era of everyone's got their own phone, their own camera on their phone with video capability.
I'm waiting for an event that is multiply recorded by at least, say, three different vantage points of something truly unusual.
I don't see why that's impossible.
I think that that can happen.
We haven't really had one that, as I would say, hits the sweet spot and sends that ball out of the park, but I think it's entirely likely.
And then the other thing that I think can do it, maybe we're on the cusp of that right now, is some kind of WikiLeaks type of event.
You know, WikiLeaks didn't exist 10 years ago either, just like YouTube.
We didn't have the global infrastructure for something like that or for groups like Anonymous to exist.
But it's all in place now, and now here they are.
And they are symptoms of.
They are, let's say, an inevitable result of the kind of global infrastructure we've developed.
It's an inevitability when you have global repression of information, which we have everywhere, combined with a global communication system that.
The people have some access to, well, leaks are going to occur.
So the question is when is there going to be an embarrassing and significant leak of UFO data?
I think that it will happen.
There were hints just two years ago out of WikiLeaks itself from Julian Assange and some others high up in that group that there was explosive or powerful UFO data.
And really, we haven't seen any of that.
We haven't seen anything other than a couple of little tidbits that mean nothing.
So I think it's entirely possible that.
Something like that can come out.
And the other thing, the long term issue, has to do with the development of what I believe will be kind of an advanced artificial intelligence or advanced super intelligence in our computing.
You know, people who think UFOs are far out need to understand what mainstream scientists in the field of artificial intelligence are talking about.
That's way more far out than even some of the things that we do in the field of ufology.
Definitely.
They are talking about your computer being able to talk to you in less than 20 years and sound like it's a conscious, sentient entity, but except with a very, very high IQ, higher than ours.
If that's really the case, we're, in other words, on the verge of replacing the dominant intelligence in our civilization with something much higher.
And if that's so, all bets are off in terms of keeping this secret.
Yeah.
Well, if you had a Snowden style incident, From say CIA repression of UFO information, and that came out, then it would represent that kind of breakthrough you're talking about.
So you can definitely see that it could happen.
This makes me think a lot about this phrase that you've come up with, which is terrific.
I think it really encapsulates what we're talking about, which is the breakaway civilization.
So now some people have built on your concept there.
And it's been very interesting, actually.
The way it's been extrapolated out.
And I think most of it's very good.
But I'm curious what exactly, I mean, I know from reading the book what you said about it.
Can you describe for me exactly what it is?
Yes, absolutely.
I'll tell you how I've conceived it.
And it was a phrase that I coined.
In fact, it was in the book you referenced, Volume 2 of UFOs, and the National Security State was the first place it made an appearance.
It was in 2009.
And then I followed up on it in AD after disclosure, where I had a chapter that essentially dealt with it.
And now, and then an article, and then other people have.
Alex Jones talks about it all the time on his show.
Richard Hoagland got into it for a while.
Joseph Farrell wrote a book that dealt with it.
Right.
So these good researchers have built on your innovative theme.
So let's have your definition of this based on your original concept.
Well, the idea of a breakaway civilization is really think of it as the black budget world on steroids, which, well, it is actually.
So when you consider.
Well, I'll start by telling you a story.
I had a conversation some years ago with a scientist who had worked at the NSA back in the mid 1960s.
This scientist is quite brilliant.
He's very famous in his field.
One day I'll give up his name.
But in the mid 1960s, he was working at the NSA and told me that at that time the NSA had computers running at a clock speed of 650 megahertz.
Now, I don't know if that means anything to someone.
I mean, because any computer, my computer here is way faster than that.
Yours is.
Every computer today is.
But the thing is, in 1965, A, there were no personal computers.
And B, that clock speed was not matched by the consumer market until the year 2000.
So 35 years.
On that metric, you could say the NSA was 35 years ahead of the rest of the world.
Not too shabby.
Not too shabby.
So that's.
That's a tangible example.
So let's think about what a breakaway civilization could be.
Again, go back to the 1940s.
Assume that something like Roswell happened, or the Aztec crash, or a number of other ones that I think did happen.
So you've got this exotic ET technology.
It's so far ahead of you, you can't hope to replicate it, but your scientists will work on it in highly compartmented, black budget environments where they have a lot of money and a lot of security to do it.
So, if they can't replicate it right away, they still might have some nifty ideas, maybe ways to improve integrated circuits or fiber optics and what have you.
So, nice money making opportunities.
And there, by the way, goes all of your incentive for unveiling the secret because you have a goose that lays golden eggs.
But let's say they go a step further.
So you have a couple of genius scientists in a team, and they discover that they figured out propulsion.
They figured out how to get these things without using gasoline, maybe some version of Tesla technology.
Maybe that's what this is.
Or some other way to access the zero point energy field, whatever that answer is.
And I.
I don't know exactly what the answer is.
I think it has to do with electrogravitics and Tesla technology, but whatever the answer is, let's say they get it.
So now they're thinking, wow, this is awesome.
The whole world can have their own flying saucers.
We can just zip around the planet using free energy, right?
Wrong.
Because their bosses would say, great job, guys.
We're not going to let this one get out.
This stays here.
Because that, of course, would take down the petroleum industry, that would take down everything.
That's a global revolution right there.
With implications that are vastly too frightening for these people to contemplate.
That is too much freedom for you and me.
And I don't mean to sound cynical here, but the fact is, if they're trying to run a world, A, they're not worried about running out of petroleum.
It's 1960, and it seems like you have enough to last forever.
And by 1960s consumption, maybe it would have, right?
And without the environmental problems that they weren't considering or any of that stuff.
So, from their point of view, petroleum was not an issue.
They're making a lot of money off of it.
So, they thought, let's.
Keep this classified.
Let's keep working it.
Let's see where we go.
Well, now you've got a situation where this technology is classified.
The rest of the world is literally unable, it's illegal for them to follow up.
Certain patents are classified.
So we're all going on this petroleum paradigm, but they're moving on to something totally different.
So they're in a different science.
Our future is now being held hostage, and they're just jumping further and further ahead because the way science works is one breakthrough.
Leads to another, which leads to another.
And if a certain population is prevented from making that first breakthrough, then these other guys are just going to go farther and farther ahead.
That's true.
And I think that is exactly what's happened.
So, what do I mean by that?
Well, I think that they've developed their own, for lack of a better word, their own flying saucers.
There's a fair amount, believe it or not, of good, I would say, intriguing and probably truthful leaked testimony.
That says exactly that, that we've actually had some version of flying saucer for a number of decades now.
If that is so, that means that the black budget worlds have the ability to go off world.
They've had the ability to go to the moon, Mars, maybe?
Sure, why not?
Have they gone elsewhere?
It would give them a society that is so radically different, with a knowledge base that is so fundamentally different from.
What the rest of us have, that you can consider them legitimately, I'd say, a separate civilization, one that has broken away from our own, hence the phrase breakaway civilization.
Now, does this mean that they all live in an alternative three environment on Mars or somewhere else?
I wouldn't say it is impossible, but I don't think that that's actually the case.
I think that they're primarily here.
I think Earth is where the action is.
If you're a non human being, Who's visiting?
Earth is where the action is.
So you would have a major presence here.
I think that's what's the case with this breakaway civilization.
Do they have the ability to go off world?
I think probably they do.
Although I don't know this for sure.
I don't know this for sure.
It's an idea, and I think it's got a certain amount of persuasive logic to it.
Do you think this, just a quick one, the breakaway civilization, do you think that they are closely related then with the whole secret space program, space operations activity?
Yes, I do.
Okay, and so this privatization of space, that somehow maybe there's some links back to this group.
Absolutely, because we have to get past the idea that governments are really what it's all about.
We grew up in an era of nation states, but we also, all of us, grew up in an era of rapidly increasing globalization.
What's globalization?
What does it even mean?
It means that you've got private, internationally based financial power.
That sits behind really every single country and government that there is, and certainly includes the US.
So, who's really in charge of our world?
This is something that contemporary political science is, I don't even think they're at the beginning stages of trying to understand this.
At least I talk to people who graduate with political science degrees, and I don't think they have a clue.
Really, I don't.
I don't really think that there's been an adequate attempt to understand what is really the true structure of power.
That is developed here on planet Earth.
So, when we're talking about a breakaway civilization, what we're seeing is something that's run by upper, upper, upper echelon financial elites who have got their hooks into every major government that matters, and especially the United States.
That means, especially, the United States defense community.
That especially means the U.S. various special access programs within that that they can then utilize for their benefit.
That's really what it's all about.
So, in other words, they use the US military as their personal police force.
They use the US government as one of their primary tools.
But that's really how we have to understand this.
So, when we're talking about secret space and privatization of space, I haven't figured all of this out myself, but I do believe that there are deeply classified components to what is going on in space.
In fact, I don't really think that's even a matter of argument anymore.
Bigelow Industries and MUFON Access00:06:13
There are classified activities that are going on in space.
The question is on whose behalf are they being done?
You know, when the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, puts out a new spy satellite, for example, who are they doing this?
On whose behalf are they doing it?
Are they doing it to protect you from the next Al Qaeda attack?
Really?
I don't think so.
They're doing it for.
Whatever powerful interests are able to get their way in terms of U.S. policy and strategy.
So, spying on other countries with a view to stealing their oil, sure, okay.
But there may be a lot of other things going on here.
The point is, there's a classified black budget component to space, and we are now seeing the beginnings of commercial private space ventures.
And we really need to be thinking what's the relationship between those two?
Because I find it very unlikely that you're just going to get some renegade billionaire who just wants to go up into space and find the UFOs and report everything to the rest of the world, doubting that'll happen.
I think by the time they get into space, they're going to be co opted by the whole system.
Yeah.
Well, this is actually interesting because you probably know quite a lot about the whole Bigelow Industries and their moves into space.
This guy whose company is based out of Nevada and made all these moves into space.
And he apparently went ahead and developed a huge role within MUFON in terms of getting a lot of their information that they've been building up.
And you were talking about MUFON in a way that I don't want to put words in your mouth, but they're kind of compromised a little bit to a certain extent in terms of being effective because they have these outside influences going on.
They always have.
They have never not.
Right.
Not MUFON, not the old nightcap.
National Investigative Committee on Aerial Phenomena, which was before them, they're all compromised.
Doesn't mean that there aren't good people in MUFON.
There are many good people in MUFON.
I know them and I love many of them.
But no, the organization's always been compromised.
So you can't really expect the full sort of truth out of a group like MUFON because there's not enough of the major players within it have control over what's going on inside.
And maybe they are sort of beholden.
To groups like Bigelow Industries who are investing in them and getting a lot of the information that they've been putting databases together for.
I've been trying to get to the bottom of that whole mess as it developed just not long ago.
But yes, it's true.
Robert Bigelow, billionaire, part of the Bigelow Tea Empire.
You know, if you go to the grocery store, you see the Bigelow Tea.
But he's an aerospace man, he's a brilliant man.
I've never had the pleasure to speak with Robert Bigelow.
I would enjoy very much.
Speaking with him.
I'm sure he's followed your work.
Yes, I know.
I mean, I've learned from a number of people close to him that that is the case.
Yeah, it's not surprising.
So, Mr. Bigelow, if you are watching this, you can call me anytime.
We could certainly chat.
What it certainly looks like is that this is a man with substantially high level connections, really, who has been interested and extremely knowledgeable about the UFO topic for a long time.
Robert Bigelow was at the conference back at MIT over 20 years ago, which John Mack really got his name out there as a conference on abduction.
Robert Bigelow was there and he was very quiet, but he was there and incredibly knowledgeable.
Even then, people knew that he knew a lot.
So it's a very interesting thing that you've got this guy who's an aerospace leader in the private field with a deep interest in UFOs.
And Who, a number of years ago, made an agreement with MUFON for his people to have access to certain MUFON cases that dealt with physical, not necessarily contact, but landing cases where objects were seen to come down.
Because what he wanted to do is to send his people in immediately to get first rate information about it.
That's fascinating.
Right.
And it wasn't that he said he was going to lock Mufon out of their own investigation, but he wanted to get his people there.
So he was basically paying MUFON to have access to their database so that they could study those most important UFO cases.
And, you know, I have talked to a number of people now about this, and I'm still trying to sort it all out.
People at MUFON, many people at MUFON felt that, excuse me, that they were being used by Bigelow.
That they were being essentially locked out of investigations.
And Bigelow, for his part, really came to the conclusion, at least publicly, that dealing with MUFON was the biggest mistake he ever made.
I mean, I know he said this, that the organization just did not have the level of organization or professionalism or what have you to work with him in a productive way.
Okay, so let's switch gears here and talk about your new publishing venture, RichardDolanPress.com.
This is a terrific list of authors, including you, by the way.
Secret Bases on the Ocean Floor00:04:48
And tell me a little bit more about it.
And I think it's going to do really well.
That would be wonderful.
As a publisher now of my own books and of other authors who want me to publish their books, I've finally gotten to a situation where I know how to do this, I think, in a good way that will actually make everyone a little bit of money.
Authors and myself, and I'm hoping that that will be the case.
Right now, I bob up and down above and below the water.
Well, you've at least made a few million off your last book, anyway, right?
I know you UFO writers are wealthy.
Hey, listen, that's a good joke.
What I'm trying to do, though, is figure out an actual model that will work financially.
And I'm trying to make that happen.
And really, what I have been trying to do for 20 years now is to Take the entire UFO phenomenon and sort of understand it in the context of our world.
What does it really mean?
I'm not just a UFO researcher to look at this sighting case or that case or whatever.
I know that I have the very good case history in my head.
I've got all that pretty much down.
But really, the point is to assimilate it.
And that means looking at the world in a fresh way.
So I feel really lucky, honestly.
There's all my little library there.
I get to spend my days doing this full time now.
Well, that's amazing.
Publishing a.
A very interesting book by Richard Sauter.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, Richard was the first author other than myself whose book I published.
It's an excellent book.
It's called Hidden in Plain Sight.
I just spoke with Richard on the phone today, actually.
But I published that for him in 2010, I believe, was when that came out.
And it's still a steady selling book.
I mean, I wouldn't say it's a.
Off the charts anymore, but it still moves.
And I think he's happy with it.
It's got that group of people who are very interested in this topic that Phil Schneider talked about as well, which is the underground bases throughout the U.S.
And there's a military aspect to it at some point because of the Cold War, but now there's this whole other hidden aspect of it that we don't know anything about, and we don't know much about what's going on down there.
No, we do not.
I think that particular book, Hidden in Plain Sight, I think it is his best book.
And I think it's the best single book that I've ever seen that deals with the whole concept of clandestine underground bases and tunnel systems.
And really, what he does, as I think I said in the foreword of that book, short of breaking into one of these places with a camcorder, he's done about the best job someone can do, which is through archival research, pointing out that there were very explicit plans by the U.S. Navy and other groups to go deep, deep, deep underground, including under the ocean floors.
Wow.
Yeah.
To create permanent bases.
Back in the 1960s, these plans were in place.
For costs that were not outrageous, actually.
They all knew it could be done.
Really, all you need to go deep under the ocean floor is two things.
You need a source of energy, which, like geothermal energy, was probably the best, or even limited nuclear energy would really get the job done.
And you need a way to take oxygen out of the water, which we've had since nuclear submarines have been around in the 1960s, late 50s, early 60s.
It's called hydrolysis.
So you extract oxygen out of the water.
So you need oxygen, you need energy.
And you need a way to tunnel down below the ocean floor.
But we've been doing that.
The channel tunnel goes for 20 miles between England and France.
There are massive tunnel systems under the ocean floor in Japan, which do the same thing.
We've had that technology.
We know how to go deep under the ocean floor.
Right.
So, really, the question is he looks at the plans, he looks at the technology, and then he studies some of the leaks.
There are a number of these, and he puts it together in a way that I think is as compelling as we've gotten so far.
Fantastic.
And so that book is available at Richard Dolan Press.
Yes.
Okay.
So this book, do you think then if you link this research to Phil Schneider's research and some of the things that he said, which were basically that he worked on bases that were built deep underground and that there was an alien connection to those bases?
Oscar Schneider and MJ-12 Letters00:03:39
How do you feel about some of the claims that he made?
Do you feel like he was legitimate in any way?
Oh, it's a hard question to answer.
I've chatted with Richard Souter about Schneider a number of times.
And it's funny that Richard does not put a whole lot of credence in Phil Schneider.
It's funny as strange as it might sound.
Myself, I don't know.
I've gone back and forth.
There's a documentary out on YouTube that deals with Phil Schneider, which I'm in.
And in fact, Richard Souter is in.
I actually don't recall the name of it, but someone could search it out.
I'll hunt it down.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's got some interesting information in there.
In fact, there are images of the dead Phil Schneider.
Like Phil Schneider, yeah, you don't really see this much.
I know he was killed under strange circumstances, or he died under strange circumstances.
I believe he was murdered.
I absolutely believe Schneider was murdered.
And that would lend credence to the idea that he really did know something.
The only problem that I have with Schneider, and this did not appear in the documentary, I was a little displeased about that, but what can you do?
There are a number of things that Schneider would show when he was alive and doing conferences, small gigs usually.
One of the things that Schneider would show would be letters from his father, Oscar Schneider.
People don't really know much about Oscar Schneider, but according to Phil, Oscar Schneider was high level U.S. intelligence, had, I think I'm getting this right, had worked for the Abwehr under Hitler, so German intelligence, World War II, then gets brought over to work for the U.S. Hey, it happens, right?
Maybe that was the case.
But the thing was, there are a number of letters, and I have copies of these letters now, dealing with Oscar Schneider and supposedly like MJ 12, the UFO cover up, correspondence between Oscar Schneider supposedly and General Nathan Twining, correspondence between Oscar Schneider supposedly and Edward Condon, who later became famous in the 1960s.
Condon Committee.
Through the Condon Committee.
Right.
Study of UFOs.
Except that this correspondence with Schneider and Conan was supposedly in, I think, 1953.
Okay.
Anyway, my analysis of those is that those are not legitimate documents.
I do not believe that they are legit.
And I think that they were created.
I don't know if Phil Schneider created them or if somebody else created them, but they were using the best knowledge they had at the time in the 1990s of how they would have assumed the UFO cover up would have worked.
Right.
That's my opinion.
And the real mistake, by the way, in the letter with Condon is that Edward Condon was not working at the University of Colorado in the 1950s, although this letter addressed Condon and talked about seeing him in Colorado.
But Condon was actually working in Cornell, New York at the time for Corning Glass, Corning, New York for Corning Glass.
And I just think it was a mistake.
Condon didn't go to the University of Colorado until 1963, I believe.
So I think it was a glitch.
And there were other things in these letters that made me.
So, the point is, there are things about Schneider that don't sit right with me.
I'll say one other thing, though.
We're getting into some really cool stuff here, and we might as well just go all the way.
Yes.
Phases of Hostile Interrogation00:02:58
One thing that we're really handicapped dealing with, but we have to acknowledge, is the fact that within the world of the military, people have had interaction with that world, is an entire subset of mind control.
We've all heard of MKUltra.
And MK Delta and Monarch and other mind control programs that have existed, they are real.
These exist.
This is not a joke.
It's not fantasy.
And so when someone has been in a highly classified program and they are then debriefed or they're let out of that program.
I'll give you an example.
I spoke to a woman years ago who had been in the US Air Force for a number of years.
She did highly classified work.
She got debriefed and discharged out of Okinawa in 1982.
Her debriefing, she said, went through three phases.
Phase one, she described as just standard counseling.
You sit across from a table with your debriefing officer, and he says, Let's get your story straight.
When you go to the rest of the world, you do not tell them you did this.
You're going to tell them you did that.
Get it?
Got it?
Good.
Okay, that's stage one.
Phase two was very unpleasant for her.
Phase two, she was brought into a room.
She was made to take sodium pentothal, like a truth serum.
And then she was tortured.
That's rough.
As she put it, she was subjected to hostile interrogation.
That's harsh.
So that, right, so that they would know if she were captured by the Russians or the North Koreans or the Chinese, what would she give up?
Very unpleasant, I'm sure.
Well, she probably gave up too much during her phase two session because then she got subjected to phase three, which for her, she said was not as bad as phase two, but when she described it to me, seemed worse than phase two.
Phase three is she was brought into a room with men in civilian clothing, which somehow made her feel better, she said.
She sat down in a chair and she had to put this metallic helmet over her head.
Ouch.
The helmet had wires that connected to a machine which had knobs and switches and dials and so forth.
So shock therapy?
Shock therapy, or they scrambled up her head in one way or another.
That's 1982.
So that she could not remember.
Did I do this or that?
I can't remember.
What was the order that I did things in?
I can't remember that.
So, if she were tortured in the future, she would be useless.
So, the technology to screw with someone's head has been pretty sophisticated for a while.
And so, when you get these people who have been exposed to deeply sensitive information and then they get released, is it possible that they've been given false memories?
Military Abductions and Black Budgets00:06:11
The answer is yes, it's possible.
Absolutely, it's possible.
Is it possible that they were even given a separate personality?
These things are absolutely possible.
I would recommend anyone who doubts this study the work of Jose Delgado of Yale University, even back in the 1960s, who was experimenting with finding ways of creating separate personalities.
That's what MKUltra, part of it, was all about, was to create a Manchurian candidate.
So, back to Phil Schneider, back to some of these other witnesses who are problematic from a logic point of view.
Is it possible that they were part of a program, but, however, unfortunately, were tampered with in such a way that they're kind of ruined for all time in terms of knowing what kind of information we get out of them?
I mean, frankly, the capability and the programs have been in place for a long time.
And so, with the UFO aspect of it, I personally think that there are some cases where that's happened.
So, they cast them off after using them in a kind of covert program.
And when they leave, they have sort of false hallucinations, false memories.
Yeah.
And as a result, they're screwed up, but then they also feel they want to share their secret work with the public, and they come out with kind of a distorted version.
So, people always have that tendency to maybe not believe them because it's just too far out.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Well, it's interesting.
One of the things that I think is interesting about Schneider is that it seemed like he was talking about the underground base part before anybody really focused on it.
I think that's, well, there's an exception.
If you go back to the late 70s, early 80s, there is the whole story of Paul Benowitz.
Now, Benowitz was a private defense contractor who lived basically across from Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.
He had a company called Thunder, golly, Thunder Research, Thunder something.
Greg Bishop wrote about this at length in his book Project Beta.
I've got it on my shelf here.
And I've done my own research into Benowitz as well, actually.
I've talked to a few people who knew him.
Benowitz was involved in.
Studying the case of Myrna Hansen, who was an apparent abductee in 1979.
And during the course of that, she recounted being taken to a deep underground base, an underground facility by her captors.
And the way that it sort of came out is it really seemed to many that this was a kind of a military abduction.
Or at least it could have been an alien abduction, but with human military collaboration.
They have a name for that, don't they?
It's a lab.
Yes, exactly.
Or my lab.
And those probably happen.
I think, yes, I think they do.
Okay.
I don't know how often they happen, but I think that they do happen sometimes.
There is sort of a small percentage of the cases, would be that, you could say.
I don't know what the percentage would be.
I think that there's a certain percentage that is the case where people are taken.
We say military very loosely.
Right.
Who are these people really?
They may work through the military, but are they really working for the United States military when they do this?
I actually think they're not.
I think this would probably be through what we'd call a special access program, black budget program.
That does not answer to the standard military chain of command.
That's what I think happens.
Just think of it this way the U.S. national security complex is so enormous, right?
It's like a Byzantine bureaucracy with lots of little nooks and crannies for people to hide.
So let's say we are very powerful private individuals and we have access into the U.S. Pentagon and we're part of, let's say, the Majestic or MJ 12 group.
So we need to use.
Part of the black budget for our own research and our own purposes, which is, I think, what they do.
So they essentially commandeer a black budget program.
They take a special access program, which has its own security protocols, its own independence largely from the rest of the structure.
But of course, it's very nice to have some taxpayer money to work with.
And maybe they get other types of money laundering benefits as well from other sources, whether it's drug trafficking or financial fraud, which they all do.
So you've got a nice amount of money to play with.
And you have the security of working within the US black budget environment.
So, if that's the source of these military abductions, it begs the question who's really signing off the checks and who's really in charge of it?
Doubt that it's the president.
I doubt that it's the military, the formal military as well.
Contractor, private contractor group for a subdivision of an intelligence agency somewhere.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
Absolutely.
And when you look at these black budget programs, the very few studies that have been done publicly all have concluded that the dominant power of these black budget programs is not the Defense Department, it's the contractors.
They really call the shots.
And do you think that maybe this might all sort of go back to this breakaway civilization idea because you can really operate without much of a trace if you're using private, corporate, Contractors to do your government work.
Private Contractors Handling Secrets00:03:18
So there's not really much of a trail.
Absolutely.
The secret is not so much classified as it becomes proprietary.
That's really the paradigm.
You know, in my second volume of UFOs National Security State, the cover up exposed, we talked about freedom of information.
And I'm glad you mentioned, and I'll just say for people listening here, that the glory era of the Freedom of Information Act was really.
Basically, the Jimmy Carter administration, basically the Carter years, the late 70s, right up until 1981 82.
In 1982, President Ronald Reagan issued an executive order that severely undercut the Freedom of Information Act, made it very difficult for people to get UFO related documents or a lot of other documents out.
Suddenly, they became very expensive?
Very expensive.
And also, agencies were not obligated even to be responsive almost at all.
NORAD was totally exempted from FOIA, by the way.
It still is.
Completely exempted.
And other groups.
So the thing is, we have that window of basically six years where more than half of all of the documents that we now have to this day that have been declassified were from that period of time.
More than 50%.
So great for Jimmy Carter, really bad for everybody else, every other administration.
It's amazing.
It is.
So the point, though, is, Those documents that came to us at that time were, even those documents were not of the highest levels of classification for the most part.
There's various levels of security, right?
So there's what's called restricted, there's confidential and restricted and secret, and then there's top secret.
And really what we have is almost from secret on down.
We have very few declassified top secret documents, a couple, a few, and a whole bunch of them that are mostly redacted and blacked out.
But that was dealing with documents from the 40s and 50s and 60s.
And what we're seeing since then, I think, is a domination of private contractors where the secret is being handled through quasi government, but really quasi private groups.
If SAIC, which was like Bobby Ray Inman's on the board of that, if they are dealing with UFO data, As a corporation that has ties to the defense industry, are they amenable to a Freedom of Information Act inquiry?
No, I think they are not.
Or is Raytheon, or is General Electric, or Boeing?
They're not.
Basically, they have almost total leeway, especially their classified sections.
If we use then, if the government had reversed, done, Reverse engineering of alien technology at some point, whether it was the crashes in the 40s, they would have gone through something like a private group like Boeing.
Corporate Penetration of Classified Data00:14:39
There we go.
They would have had to, yeah.
And as a result of that, we wouldn't be able to, as the public, petition Boeing to get their private plans because they're a private company.
Exactly.
And then, like, if I'm the Air Force or Army liaison with Boeing, when I retire, I get hired by Boeing as a senior vice president, and I can make a nice salary.
And I would also continue to be part of this nexus, this information.
It would be very convenient, for sure.
Right.
Now, all of this is interesting theory, and I think most of this is true.
I maintain this because it really is contingent on whether or not we recovered exotic technology in the form of crash retrieval.
If we never recovered any exotic technology in the form of crash retrieval, then all of this theory could very well just be not true.
But if you had to weigh it on a scale, there's a lot of sort of witness testimony that weighs on the scale of we did recover it.
Oh, absolutely.
In fact, for me personally, I put that in the upper 90 percentile in terms of my own personal certainty.
I had a conversation with a scientist.
I do have a couple of interesting ones.
And this is someone, this one I will also put his name out there.
I promise.
Can't do it yet.
But I had a long conversation with this man.
I've mentioned this publicly a few times before.
But he's actually friendly with Bill Clinton.
Their daughters are friends.
He's a brilliant man.
And he has had some access to some of this information.
And I had a long one on one conversation with him on a number of occasions.
And on one occasion, I just asked him point blank I said, I'm not interested in your personal opinions at the moment.
I'm interested in whether or not.
This is almost a verbatim quote of what I asked him.
I said, Whether you, in a professional capacity, have had reason to believe A, UFOs are real, and B, are alien in some way.
That's really what I asked.
And he said, Well, I'll go a little bit further than that, and I will tell you what I have known scientifically for the past 10 years or so, which is at a deeply, deeply classified level.
He said, This is so compartmented, you would be astonished at how secret this information is.
That at that level of secrecy, that we have scientists who have in their possession, he almost whispered this part alien technology and at least one body that I personally know about.
It's a verbatim quote.
Yeah, so when you read about this on the web or something like that, that has a certain amount of impact.
But when you're face to face with somebody who you really could, I could out him and I could make his career very difficult.
So I feel that he was trusting me with that information.
And I had a lot of other conversations with him, which led me to believe that he's truthful with me.
So that's just my opinion.
But it has a certain emotional impact.
I won't deny it.
I've had other conversations of a similar caliber that have equally led me to the exact same conclusion that we have in our possession this technology.
And if that's the case, then I think we are talking about a breakaway civilization.
Now, why do you think he told you about seeing the technology?
I have a pretty good idea why.
Let's say you're in that world for your whole life.
And you are, A, you have some information, but not all the information.
Because it's like a labyrinth.
So you get in part of the way, but then there are other doors ahead of you, and you're trying to get access.
This is a game that they're all playing.
I think there's only a very few people who really have total access, and there's a lot of other people who have some.
And just like you and me, they are interested and they want to know more.
So they're always quietly seeking out.
Other people with whom to share information quietly.
That I know is the case.
And the other thing is if you're in that world and you develop the opinion that the secrecy has become more of a negative than a positive, but you've been within a culture where you need to maintain that secret, but you quietly think maybe it's a good idea to get this out a little bit.
You will seek out researchers whom either you trust or you think might be a good bet to work with this information and help them along.
And actually, the reason he told me anything is because I confronted him.
I had written to him previously and I'd said, I have a theory about you.
We were friendly.
I said, I have a theory about you.
My theory is that you have the scientific and intelligence connections that would position you to be on a team that would study ET technology.
And I said, I realize if you're on such a team, you can't just tell me, but maybe you can throw me a bone since you tell me that you like my work.
It's almost literally what I said.
And that's when he said, Well, it's a little more complicated than that, but perhaps if we meet in person, we can talk.
And I thought, Aha, that's good.
A few months later, I happened to be doing a conference and I made a side trip to see him.
And that's when we had this conversation.
So I don't think he would have just told me on his own, he wasn't seeking me out.
But I think he must have made a decision that, Well, it's okay, I'll tell Dolan this much.
And I really, now, was any of it disinformation?
It's always possible.
I'm always interested in people's motivations.
Right.
But I think that your analysis of his motivation is very good because in that clandestine world, they are keeping secrets from each other and everyone's only getting so far.
He said one other thing to me that I think you would find interesting and I think the listeners would find interesting.
It was a very human kind of reaction to this.
He said, you know, for years, I had suspected this was true, that there was a program to study technology and bodies, but I didn't know it was true, he said.
And I had always assumed that once I knew for sure that this would change my life.
And he said, Really, it hasn't changed almost anything.
He said, What do I do with this information?
Do I go to the New York Times, really?
And I tell the New York Times, Here's a list of the 15 people that I know who know everything about this.
Then what?
You know, first of all, it's totally deniable.
Secondly, he said it would all be traced to me and I would lose all of my clearances.
What clearances I have would go away.
So they're in a tough position.
They're in a tough spot.
They're also probably, I would imagine, monitored very closely so that a lot's not going to get out.
And at the minute they let something out, their career is going to end pretty fast.
Well, this is interesting actually because there is someone.
I wanted to talk to you about remote viewing, and now we can talk through.
A person about it, which is Ingo Swan.
I'm very interested because you included so much of his book in UFOs and the National Security State, and it's very interesting because I've read Penetration and I thought it was a fascinating account and very obscure, self published book.
We know that, and yet he was one of the top remote viewers for the government.
So I always put a lot of stock in that thinking.
You know, if this guy wanted to come out with all the secrets that he had, he could have really made quite a show of it the way some people did who were in those programs.
But I felt like because of his approach, I believed almost everything that he wrote.
I met Ingo Swan, and actually I spent an evening in his home on one occasion back in about 10 years ago, 2003, I think.
He was a fascinating guy.
I really liked Ingo very much.
He actually got mad at me later, which I can tell you about that.
It's a funny story now.
Come on.
I will.
I'll tell you.
The main thing is regarding penetration, which there's a title for you.
I mean, penetration.
So, the story, well, you know, this is a fascinating thing.
So, by the way, I'm really enjoying this interview.
I don't know how long we're going to go, but I'll go for a while here.
There's an endgame in there somewhere, I swear.
Ingo Swan, for anyone who's new to this field or has lived under a rock or whatever, was a remote viewer for the United States intelligence community.
That is, he was a psychic spy, let's just put it that way.
So, he would be tasked for seeing things far, far away from national security purposes.
And believe it or not, he had a tremendously successful track record, like a lot of these people did.
Ingo Swan and Joe McMonagall and Pat Price, who's kind of like this legend, and a number of other people.
Remote viewing is an incredible and fascinating scientific reality.
I would say the fact that we have people who we know can see across time and space tells us something very fundamental about this fabric of reality that our contemporary science has not truly assimilated yet.
That's one thing.
If you can see things on the other side of the world or in another time, then that sure as hell tells you our space time reality is not what our Isaac Newton common sense tells us.
That it's, you know, there's non locality, there's all of these things that contemporary physicists are telling us about.
It's all real.
Anyway, so Ingo in the early mid 70s had kind of made a name for himself in the Intel world quietly.
And he would get all of these strange requests from.
You know, who knows what group they'd want to pay him money to do this, they'd bring him over and have him do that.
He was living kind of a good life, you know.
So he gets hooked up with a very mysterious guy named Axelrod, Mr. Axelrod, who is working with these two identical twins in very military haircuts and they never talk.
It's a very, very strange series of events that Ingo describes in his book, Penetration.
And I did, I think, a very Serviceable synopsis of his main story in volume two of UFOs International Security State.
And I wanted to get that out for people.
The basic thing was I mean, how much, what can we say about this?
Axelrod basically brings Ingo to a secure underground facility where he has him, he pays him very good money for a week and has him remote view the moon, among other things.
On another occasion, Axelrod took Ingo.
By helicopter to a place seemingly up in Alaska in the wilderness, where they land on this halo pad.
They go deep into this forested area, and Axelrod and the two twins are there.
Axelrod says, Now wait for something to happen.
Just wait here.
And they're in silence.
And then, according to what Ingo said, a purplish mist appears over this lake and it forms into a perfect triangular craft and it starts zapping.
Blasting trees and little woodland creatures and who knows what else.
And one of the twins said, Shit, they know we're here.
And they lift Ingo up and they run.
The last thing Ingo Swan saw, he said, was this craft sucking the water out of the lake.
He said it was like a reverse waterfall.
Now, he wrote about this in Penetration, but he also told me about it in detail when I was visiting him.
And, you know, Ingo Swan was many things, but athlete was not one of them.
So he was basically a chain smoking artist at the time, and they're making him run, and he wasn't very good at running, and he fell and he banged his knee really bad, and he was upset about that, and they kept running.
And then after they catch their breath, Axelrod says to him, Now, Ingo, I'm trying not to laugh as I say this.
He says, Ingo, what was your psychic impression of that craft?
And Ingo Swan cleaned it up in his book, his response.
But as he said to me, it was, he said, like, are you out of your fucking mind?
Is Ingo Swan.
He said, I don't want to misquote him, but he said, I nearly pissed my pants.
I was so scared.
He said, Look, to do remote viewing properly, you can't be in a state of panic like that.
I mean, that just doesn't work.
It's a little different.
But he actually did give his impression, which was simply that they, whoever they are, use Earth as their supermarket, basically.
Oh, let's go to Earth.
Let's get some water.
Let's get some resources.
Let's get whatever.
Now, here's a theory about Axelrod.
And I know we're taking us very far afield here.
Ingo did not believe the following, but I believe this.
And I know a very prominent person who also believes this.
That Axelrod and his group, whatever they were, were actually not truly of our government.
They were not truly us.
Whoever they were, they were doing counterintelligence.
What were they trying to do?
You have this new remote viewing program that is in place that the Americans have.
Telepathic Counterintelligence Programs00:05:20
If you are a telepathic, non human race that has a presence here, and they're all telepathic, I think, naturally you want to know just how effective might these humans be at detecting you.
At detecting your operations.
Are they not good?
Are they pretty good?
Are they very good?
You know, you want to know all these things.
And that, I think, is the best guess to who Axelrod and his group really were.
Because there's a lot of stories of very human looking beings, but they're not like you and me.
They're intensely telepathic, and there's something different about them.
Which is totally different than Greys and things like that, which are obviously alien looking.
I mean, they're still humanoid, but what you were describing with the twins and all that.
Is something that you do hear in UFO lore, which is about human looking, almost perfect looking aliens.
I've encountered a number of cases from witnesses that I think are completely credible, totally disparate, different parts of the country, and I've gotten the same types of stories of encounters with, at least in the most credible cases I've met, blonde, almost like supermodel blonde male female pairs together who are highly telepathic.
And not to be messed with, not to be trifled with.
So, yeah, I think that that is the case.
And I think that's probably what Ingo Swan encountered.
That's fascinating.
Richard, this is awesome.
Thanks so much.
Outstanding.
I've enjoyed this.
It's been actually a really, really fun discussion.
Oh, why was Ingo Swan mad at you?
Oh, right.
And I can leave this out if you want, but I want to hear it.
No, let's put it in.
Okay.
Ingo, may you rest in peace.
The thing is, I always loved Ingo Swan.
Yeah.
And I always felt bad that we never really kind of.
I should have reached out and just apologized.
So here's what happened.
A couple of years after we met, I wrote.
I don't think this is published out on the web, but I'm going to make it available in the near future.
I wrote an article on remote viewing.
And really, what I wanted to know is how is it even possible to have remote viewing?
What does it say about the structure of our reality, our fabric of reality that a person can see across space and time, like we were talking about earlier?
And for this, I interviewed a number of people.
I interviewed Joe McMonagall, an excellent remote viewer.
I interviewed Hal Putoff, who ran the remote viewing program at Stanford Research Institute.
I believe I interviewed Russell Targ, Lynn Buchanan, a bunch of others.
Russell's great.
So I really did some research into this.
And then finally, I interviewed Ingo.
Now you have to understand, these remote viewers, they're kind of like divas.
They really are.
They're like rock star divas with all the insecurities as well.
And Ingo had them.
This is not to say anything bad about him because I had tremendous respect for him.
He was a character.
I mean, you can see in his lectures.
He was a character.
So, I had a mutual friend.
Ingo didn't do email, he didn't do any of that.
So, I had a mutual friend in New Jersey, Bob Durant, who's still around.
He's getting up there.
And through Bob, I gave Ingo a copy of my paper.
I wanted Ingo to comment on it.
And I knew that I didn't have enough yet on Ingo himself.
I wanted to write a little bit about Ingo.
Instead, I had written much more on Joe McMonagall, another outstanding remote viewer.
And he and Ingo, they really never got along.
You have these rivalries that develop.
Ingo always felt that he was the best, not Joe.
Well, Joe McMondale is a hell of a remote viewer.
And I wrote quite a bit about Joe in this article, but I wanted to write about Ingo to even it up.
But when Ingo got the article, it was not yet even.
So he read the article, and he said to Bob Durant very cavalierly, Did you see this piece of shit Dolan wrote?
Just like that.
That's how Bob described it.
It sounds like he's always done that.
And Bob just said to me, Yeah, Ingo is really upset that, you know, he felt that you slighted him.
And I thought, For God's sake, man.
Because the final version of the article was not in any way a slight against Ingo at all.
But he was really mad.
And for a while, I just thought, You know, the hell with it.
I don't really care.
You want to be mad at me over that?
I don't, I have other things to deal with in my life, and I kind of let it go.
And then as the years went by, I felt worse and worse.
And I kept thinking, I'm going to talk to Ingo.
And I tried reaching him in the last couple of months as his health was declining, and I learned that his health was not good, and I really wanted to find him.
But I left a few messages, and I never heard from him, and then he died.
So I felt bad about that.
But he's, listen, you know what?
I don't know, you don't know, nobody knows what happens when we shed this mortal coil.
Faith in the Great Exposure00:00:43
Yeah.
But I do believe that we go somewhere.
That's a belief, maybe even a faith.
So I have a faith that I didn't go somewhere good, and he knows that I felt bad about that.
Well, you included so much of his book in your book that that's a great exposure to the world, you know, for everything that he did.
Yes, actually, that was all after the whole feud as well.
So that's the ultimate compliment.
Yes, good.
Thank you for reminding me of that.
I feel better.
Thank you for joining me for this fascinating overview of the.
Breakaway Civilization with Richard Dolan.
You can look for part two of this interview at youtube.com forward slash dark journalists.