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May 10, 2018 - The David Knight Show

02:59:44

20180510_Thu_Knight

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	Live from Austin, Texas, it's David Nutt.
	Welcome on this Thursday, May the 10th, 2018.
	You know, as we look at 9-11, of course, it was a seminal event in the history of this country.
	Not only did over 3,000 people die, and people are still sick and dying from the after-effects of that event in New York and elsewhere, but it is something that, kind of like the 200th anniversary of the communist, of Karl Marx and the guy who wrote the Communist Manifesto.
	Long after this man has died, the Communist Manifesto Obviously false.
	We have seen it proven false.
	As I pointed out, we've had the controlled experiments of East and West Germany, of North and South Korea.
	We can see what's going on in Venezuela.
	We have seen it disproven over and over again.
	We have seen it used, however, as a, it's not only false and a lie, but it's been used by governments to do whatever they want.
	It's a very useful device.
	The same thing is true of 9-11.
	It is patently false when we look at the narrative, the official government conspiracy theory.
	And we're going to look at that today.
	We're going to have people joining us from the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry.
	I talked about this a couple of weeks ago.
	They've put together over 50 pages of a legal brief, and they have put together 50-some-odd exhibits talking about the fact they believe that this was obviously planted explosives detonated in the Trade Center to bring this down.
	And, of course, that means that the narrative, the official conspiracy theory, that you had a bunch of Saudis, for the most part, fly some planes into buildings.
	They flew two planes and three buildings fell down.
	Steel skyscrapers.
	Two planes, three buildings.
	And so when we look at this and we look at the aftermath of this, if you don't think that that has transformed our society, just take a look at the hearings yesterday that we had about Gina Haspel.
	So we're going to have lawyers joining us from the Lawyers Committee for the 9-11 Inquiry.
	One of the things they're saying is that a federal grand jury has broad powers to investigate federal crimes of 9-11.
	That citizens have a right to report potential federal crimes about 9-11 to a grand jury.
	That the Department of Justice must relay citizen reports of federal crimes to a grand jury.
	So we're going to talk about that aspect of it, as well as all the information that's been put together over the last 20 years.
	When we look at the news today, when we look at the Middle East erupting into war, we look at the aftermath of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, the regime change policies that we pursued in Libya, what happened with that, and now we have the Israeli-Iran war erupting, escalating very quickly after we came out of the Iranian deal.
	And as I said yesterday, I never agreed with the Iranian deal.
	I don't like The idea of a president self-ratifying a treaty that has not only economic aspects to it, but military aspects to it.
	It was not a good treaty.
	It was done over the objections of two-thirds of the Congress and of two-thirds of the American people.
	As a matter of fact, the majority of Congress put together a law that said you can't do this.
	Just in case Barack Obama wasn't reading the Constitution.
	Just in case he didn't know he was violating the Constitution.
	And he vetoed that.
	And they nearly overrode his veto.
	They fell one vote short of overriding his veto.
	So that is the deal in historical perspective.
	But as we pull this out, we can see from what Benjamin Netanyahu was doing that he was intending on starting a war with Iran.
	And it appears that perhaps has now started.
	We'll see how far that gets and we'll look at the consequences of that.
	But today we're also going to be talking to John Kiriakou.
	The guy who blew the whistle on the CIA torture program.
	The only one who went to jail for what was done there.
	And we're going to talk to him.
	He wrote an article called The Conservative Case Against Gina Haspel.
	And I think it's important for us to look at this as conservatives.
	Have we gotten to the point where we no longer care about the law as Obama didn't care about the law with the treaty?
	Do we as conservatives no longer care about the law, about the Constitution, about ethics and morality?
	That's not really a consideration for us, is it?
	And, of course, we have Democrats taking the lead on this, not because they care about those things either, but because they see a partisan advantage in doing so.
	We'll be right back.
	Stay with us.
	I'm David Knight.
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	It's the real news.
	Live from the InfoWars.com studios in Austin, Texas, it's your host, David Knight.
	Hey, remember that time when John Bolton promised regime change in Iran before 2019?
	Yeah, that was only a year ago.
	Caitlin Johnston pointed out that it was July of last year that neoconservative death cultist John Bolton, those are her words, not mine, but I think they fit.
	Now, the National Security Advisor of the U.S. gave a speech at the Grand Gathering of Iranians for Free Iran.
	That's their title. I mean, that's their official title, the Grand Gathering of Iranians for Free Iran.
	He openly called for regime change in Tehran.
	He had this to say. He said, Okay, well, you know what? I don't like the Mullahs either.
	I think they're crazy. I think they're dangerous.
	I think they're terrorists. If you don't know, however, how we got the mullahs in the first place, it was because we overthrew another regime in Iran in the 1950s, one that was democratically elected.
	It was the CIA that did that.
	And so how did that work out for us?
	That regime change we did back in the 1950s has been the seed that has been festering in the Middle East.
	We thought we'd done something great.
	We didn't put a Thomas Jefferson or George Washington in power.
	We put a Shaw in power.
	And the CIA that had overthrown that previous government trained his secret police to be ruthless.
	To be ruthless.
	As I've said before, when I was in college in engineering, we had a lot of Iranian students that had been sent here by the Shah.
	They wanted to train people technically.
	And they thought they were moving towards the West and so forth.
	As we see Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia saying, yeah, we want to be a Western power.
	We want to educate people.
	You know, the problem is that sometimes if you get technical education and you don't have any ethics or morality that is grounded in a Christian understanding of the nature of man and the way that we should behave to each other, it just makes you more dangerous, doesn't it?
	And we have seen that now in Iran.
	We've seen it in the mullahs.
	We had massive blowback from those people.
	They used to march and have demonstrations at campus.
	I didn't know any of the Iranian students.
	They pretty much stayed to themselves.
	But as I saw them wearing masks, that was unusual for the time.
	That was the late 1970s.
	And so I asked them, why are you wearing masks?
	And then they told me what the Sabacc would do to their families back in Iran if they were identified in these marches.
	That was our CIA. And so we're going to talk today about our new CIA master that we're likely going to have, Gina Haspel.
	Who talked all around the idea of whether or not this works.
	She says it doesn't work, then she says that it does work, and she says you didn't break any laws, but don't worry, we're never going to do it again.
	Well, if it works, and you didn't break any laws, and it wasn't unethical or immoral, why wouldn't you do it, Gina?
	Oh, of course we know you will do it.
	And you will destroy the records of what you do, because that's the way you people operate, you criminals in the CIA. We're going to have somebody who was a whistleblower from the CIA, somebody who came back from that and blew the whistle on it.
	John Kiriakou is going to be joining us in the next hour.
	He wrote an article that was in the American Conservative called The Conservative Case Against Gina Haspel.
	And Ray McGovern Also wrote an article about that.
	Ray McGovern, as John Kiriakou says, most of my progressive friends know that I am a...
	He says none of his progressive friends know that he is a former adjunct professor of intelligence studies at Liberty University, Jerry Falwell's university.
	And you've got Ray McGovern.
	Who used to brief President Reagan, give him his daily briefing from the CIA, a 27-year veteran yesterday, was roughed up, beaten, injured, because he had the audacity to oppose this terrorist.
	That we are going to make head of the CIA. And it fits.
	Quite frankly, it fits. By her own definition, folks, and I'll tell you why, by her own definition, she is a terrorist.
	She said, terrorists don't follow the rule of law.
	Terrorists do whatever they wish.
	You know, by that definition, and I'll give it to you exactly later on.
	I'm looking in my stack of papers here.
	I can't find it right now. But by her own definition of a terrorist, she is a terrorist.
	And as Angus King, the independent senator from Maine, because a lot of this stuff is just running along partisan lines, the independent senator from Maine said she could make the case that they thought that what they were doing was legal, that they thought that what they were doing was effective, that they thought they were protecting the United States.
	But he said by 2005, everybody knew that none of that stuff was true.
	And then she destroyed the records.
	And he said, for that reason, I will not support her.
	Great statement. Great statement.
	Very true. So we're going to take a look at the eternal war that we have had since we created this intelligence state.
	And we sacrificed everything, didn't we?
	Because of 9-11.
	And in the third hour, we're going to be talking to the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry.
	They have put together a great deal of work.
	They have documented all the scientific, architectural evidence, forensic evidence showing the presence of explosives and the dust and so forth.
	They've put all this stuff together and they're trying to move this forward into a grand jury and trying to use the rule of law to re-establish the rule of law.
	How about that for bootstrapping?
	It's what we call an engineering bootstrapping program.
	maybe we could use what's left of our Constitution and the rule of law to reestablish our Constitution and the rule of law.
	You think?
	We're going to talk to them about the evidence that they put together, but also about the legal taxes that they're going to do.
	So we're going to talk to the CIA whistleblower who went to jail, said he would do it all over again, the only person who was punished for what the CIA did.
	He'll be joining us in the second hour, and then the third hour we'll have people from the 9-11 committee.
	Let's take a look at some of the news today.
	And, of course, the headline news that happened overnight was the return of three prisoners from North Korea.
	President Trump met them at 2 a.m. in the morning or so when they got in.
	He praised Kim Jong-un for freeing the three American prisoners.
	He thanked him for freeing the folks early.
	He called it a wonderful thing, adding that he believes a North Korean leader really wants to do something and bring the pariah state into the real world.
	The pariah state, that was not what he said.
	I would expect him to say that in a tweet, but that was the words of Daily Mail, and I'm reading their summary of what he had to say.
	But he said that he expected, he thought they were really going to do something and bring them into the real world.
	He said, we're starting off on new footing.
	I really think we have a very good chance of doing something very meaningful.
	And if anybody would have said that five years ago, ten years ago, even a year ago, you would have said that's not possible.
	He said, my proudest achievement will be when we denuclearize the entire Korean peninsula.
	The prisoners were escorted back to the U.S. by Secretary of State Mike Pompeo arriving at the Andrews Air Force Base at 242 in the morning this morning.
	And the prisoners, as they got out, said we would like to express our deep appreciation to the United States government, President Trump, Secretary Pompeo, and the people of the United States for bringing us home.
	We thank God and all our families and friends who prayed for us and for our return.
	God bless America, the greatest nation in the world.
	And quite frankly, one of the individuals, we can take this with a grain of salt, was accused of spying.
	By the North Korean government, the other two were there to aid people, came in with Christian organizations to try to help them grow food agriculturally and other things like that.
	That was probably why they were arrested, because the communists hate to have anybody that puts God above their God-like leaders.
	A CNN poll, and this must have really hurt CNN to say this, It shows that three quarters of the American public, actually 77%, approve of President Trump's decision to meet with the North Korean leader.
	Trump's approval ratings for handling the situation with North Korea have jumped 10 points since just late March.
	They said this is a reversal from his low point on the topic in November.
	When just 35% approved not long after Kim accused Trump of mentally deranged behavior.
	Maybe there's a lesson there.
	Maybe the lesson is that peace can be as popular as war.
	Maybe the lesson can be that peace can be more popular than war.
	You can go from 35% approval rating President Trump to 77% if people see you working for peace.
	Just think if people saw you working for liberty as well.
	Alright, stay with us.
	We'll be right back. I'm David Knight. Staying healthy on the go is just as important as staying healthy at home.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Real News with David Knight.
	Welcome back. I'm David Knight, and we're going to take a look at some of the The consequences that are already starting as we moved out of the Iranian deal that was self-ratified by Barack Obama and John Kerry, as I pointed out.
	The American public at the time, two-thirds thought it was a bad deal.
	Two-thirds of the Congress thought it was a bad deal.
	And they passed a law saying you can't do that, in addition to the fact that we have a Constitution that says treaties need to be approved by two-thirds of the Senate.
	It was actually nearly two-thirds of the Senate That voted to override Obama's veto when the Congress put together a law saying, we're not going to let you do this deal.
	He vetoed that, and they got 34 votes, so they did not have a two-thirds majority to override his veto.
	And there were other legal issues, and I'm not going to go into that.
	I think it was a bad deal. However, as we're looking at this, and as we look at the reactions and the back and forth, the escalation between Iran and Israel, that is now getting more direct.
	There's been a long-term proxy war going on between Iran and Israel.
	Iran uses their proxy of Hezbollah in Lebanon.
	And of course, on Sunday, Hezbollah won a large majority of the control of the government there in Lebanon.
	And they've been the ones who've been launching rockets at Israel for quite some time.
	But now this appears to be more direct as bases in Syria that are controlled by the Iranians launched missiles this time, not using their surrogate Hezbollah in Lebanon.
	And so the response from Israel has been swift and escalated that attack.
	We'll talk about that in just a moment.
	First of all, let's talk about what the effect of the sanctions are going to be.
	CNBC points out that Trump-Iran sanctions have just given Saudi Arabia and Russia more clout in the oil market.
	And you're going to see higher prices.
	They said Saudi Arabia said it will help to meet world oil demand if U.S. sanctions on Iran create shortfalls.
	But analysts say it will only do so if they can work in conjunction with Russia.
	This means also higher prices with oil closer to $80 per barrel.
	Oil jumped yesterday by 3%.
	As one oil analyst said, I think the Saudis will let this drift up to $80, $85 before they lift a finger.
	Treasury Secretary Mnuchin said on Tuesday that the administration had sought help from oil-producing allies, such as Saudi Arabia, to help keep prices in check.
	But the U.S. request, they say, is more complicated this time.
	Saudi Arabia...
	A longtime rival of Iran and the group that basically backs our fiat currency, the petrodollar, thanks to Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon.
	Saudi Arabia has struck a production deal with Russia.
	Now Russia, as you may remember, is allied with Syria and Iran.
	And it is also being sanctioned by the United States.
	So are they going to help us with the price of, keep the price of oil low?
	Do you think that the Saudis, especially the Russians, would like to see one of their major exports go up in price?
	Do you think that maybe increased oil could do serious damage to our economy?
	Not only eating up The tax cut for consumers but also doing to us what similar options that were done by OPEC, arbitrarily raising prices back in the late 1970s, did to the economy, if you remember that. The stagnant growth, the rapid inflation, they called it stagflation of the Carter years.
	The question now is whether Saudi Arabia and OPEC and its Vienna alliance with Russia will keep oil production targets the same or whether they will adjust them to meet any loss of Iranian crude oil.
	The Saudis, says Citigroup's global head of commodities research, the Saudis wouldn't do it without the Russians having to do it as well.
	The Russians are opposed to the U.S. ending the deal, and on the other hand, they don't really like high oil prices because the ruble is tied to the price.
	That's the only reason they wouldn't want higher oil prices, is because of the petrodollar and the fact that the ruble is tied to this as well.
	The ideal world is one where you can keep the ruble from appreciating and keep the cost down, and that would mean a stable price.
	And so then that brings us to this, another step towards the collapse of the petrodollar.
	As the article on Zero Hedge from Rory Hall says, for the past year and a half, a major topic throughout the alternative press has been the new Chinese oil futures and contract settled price, settling it in Chinese yuan.
	The fact that China is directly challenging the Federal Reserve note, in other words, the U.S. dollar, is quite a significant change.
	The new futures oil contract is nothing more than the next step in China moving completely away from the Federal Reserve note and the World Reserve currency system that was created and towards a multipolar world with several currencies being used for international trading.
	Now remember, they started this, long rumored, they started it March the 26th.
	And it rapidly became the third largest oil exchange contract mechanism after Brent and West Texas Intermediate, WTI. The Daily Economist recently had an article about Nigeria, for example, approving a currency swap with China.
	They said with Iran, Qatar, even Venezuela having already agreed to buy and sell their oil and currencies other than the dollar, a new currency swap agreement signed on the 3rd of May between Nigeria and China could mean that a fourth OPEC nation could also soon be leaving the petrodollar.
	The Central Bank of Nigeria has signed a currency swap deal worth about $2.5 billion with the People's Bank of China to provide adequate local currency liquidity for transactions between national businesses.
	And he points out that China has now direct currency swaps with more than 30 nations, including some of the largest economies in the world, like Japan, France, Australia, to name just a few.
	And then he concludes with this.
	China, along with Russia, understand this scenario very well.
	These two nations, along with 30-plus other nations, are making moves to get rid of the problem known as the Federal Reserve note.
	Once this problem, as these nations see it, is corrected, the U.S. economy will change dramatically.
	Inflation, and according to some economists, like John Williams of ShadowStats, hyperinflation, like they're now seeing in Venezuela.
	So we see this type of thing in places because...
	You know, we've had an economist, not just Karl Marx, sell us a bunch of lies.
	We had John Maynard Keynes sell us a bunch of lies that the government used to establish the idea that debt doesn't matter to us.
	Cumulative debt doesn't matter. It's money that we owe ourselves.
	Well, actually it's not.
	It's money that we owe the Chinese, money that we owe the Saudis, and so forth.
	We've been able to escape the reality of this, and we have been running like Wile E. Coyote, who ran off the cliff and is still running very fast on the air.
	We've been running on this for quite some time.
	We haven't really looked down to realize that we're no longer on solid ground, that we're just running on thin air.
	We're running on a fiat currency.
	Once this reality sets in, We're going to, maybe not, I guess you could say the falling to the ground is going to be the inflation or the hyperinflation.
	It will come raining down on the U.S. economy like the world has never seen or experienced before, says this author.
	We can only hope that cooler heads will prevail and that a major war doesn't manifest itself to announce the coming change of our global monetary system.
	Do you think? Do you think we will have a coming war to do that?
	We look at this, and guess whose stocks are soaring?
	The military-industrial complex.
	Wall Street thinks there's going to be a war.
	They're betting on this.
	We've got these military-industrial complex companies going up anywhere from 3% to 4% in just one day.
	They're very excited. A lot of money to be made with wars.
	Just ask the bankers. We'll be right back.
	I'm David Knight. They use their media to assassinate real news.
	They use their schools to teach children that their president is another Hitler.
	They use their movie stars and singers and comedy shows and award shows to repeat their narrative over and over again.
	And then they use their ex-president to endorse the resistance.
	All to make them march, make them protest, make them scream racism and sexism and xenophobia and homophobia, to smash windows, burn cars, shut down interstates and airports, bully and terrorize the law abiding.
	Until the only option left is for the police to do their jobs and stop the madness.
	And when that happens, they'll use it as an excuse for their outrage.
	The only way we stop this, the only way we save our country and our freedom is to fight this violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth.
	I'm the National Rifle Association of America, and I'm freedom's safest place.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Making sense common again.
	It's your host, David Knight.
	Welcome back. We just looked at the possible consequences, the economic consequences.
	Not only a rise in the price of oil, but putting the Saudis and the Russians in a position where they have more leverage over our economy.
	And also undermining the petrodollar, which has given us our special status to be able to spend without any discipline or consequences.
	That is one of the consequences coming here.
	Of course, there's also the threat of war.
	As Americans, it's been such a long time, it's been since the Civil War, since we've had violence on our shores.
	All of our wars have been foreign, and we haven't seen the direct consequences of this.
	This is why... When we had Mark Dice talk to Americans about, well, you know, you think this is going to be a nuclear war exchange between us and Russia or whatever?
	Well, yeah, it might be, whatever, you know.
	It might be kind of cool to see that happen.
	Probably kick their butt. Russians took a very different approach because it was during World War II they saw massive destruction in their country.
	We have lost that collective memory of the reality of war, of the suffering of war.
	So, as we look at this, we only look at the economic possible consequences.
	That's why I began with that.
	But let's take a look at how the war is now escalating in the Middle East, whether or not that comes to us, whether or not we only see the economic consequences of this.
	First we had, within hours of the announcement by President Trump that we would get out of Obama's deal with Iran, we had Israel...
	Attacking some Iranian bases.
	The Iranians then, very rapidly, we saw things escalate yesterday.
	Iranian forces fired 20 rockets at Israel.
	Israel reported that their Iron Dome, what they call their air defense system, intercepted many of those.
	They said some 20 rockets were fired, this is Times of Israel, at Israeli military bases by Iranian forces in southern Syria.
	Just after midnight on Thursday with some of the incoming missiles being intercepted by the Iron Dome defense system, there were no reports of Israeli casualties in the attack.
	Daily Mail reports Iran and Israel are trading blows.
	Israelis bomb Iranian positions in Syria in retaliation.
	They say they killed 23 fighters after Revolutionary Guards fired those 20 rockets I just talked about at Golan Heights.
	So very quickly escalating.
	Stoking fears of war, Israel launched dozens of missiles on Iranian positions in Syria.
	They hit radar station, air defense positions, and an ammunition dump, said Syrian state media.
	28 Israeli jets were reported to be involved in this.
	They said a total of 70 projectiles, including 60 air-to-surface rockets, more than 10 surface-to-surface missiles.
	28 Israeli F-15s and F-16 planes were involved in the attacks as the Israeli Defense Ministry's Syrian attack defense systems shot down more than half of the rockets as they repelled the Israeli attack.
	They also say in USA Today that there were dozens of Iranian targets.
	The Guardian says that Israel has hit nearly all Iranian infrastructure in Syria, claims the Israeli military.
	This is a rapid escalation that we've seen, and as The Guardian points out, If confirmed, what is different about this?
	It would be the first time that Iran has fired rockets directly at Israeli forces in a conflict that for years has been fought through proxies, like the Lebanese group Hezbollah that is now firmly in political control of Lebanon.
	Hezbollah, of course, is the same sect of Islam that Iran is.
	They are a Shia sect committed to the destruction of Israel as well.
	And so when you look at these alliances, Hezbollah in Lebanon has been the proxy for Iranian attacks on Israel.
	Now this has stepped up with the Iranian bases in Syria launching these missiles after the removal of the United States from the Iranian deal.
	And as a result of that, Israel...
	Then they said if it rains in Israel, it's going to pour in Iran, is I think what Netanyahu, or I think he was the one who said it from the Israeli government.
	So what they did was they escalated it, hit essentially all Iranian infrastructure in Syria.
	So this is the, as I said, the most intensive Israeli action in Syria since the war began in 2011.
	Will we get involved in this?
	You know, we've had a lot of talk about the authorization of the use of military force.
	One of the after effects of 9-11 that was so serious.
	And I said earlier that the people from the lawyers committee for 9-11 working on behalf of the families there as well as for all of America.
	We've had a sea change in our government on the basis of the official conspiracy story from the American government.
	And they're looking into this, trying to get a federal grand jury set up, trying to appeal to the rule of law, if there's any rule of law left in America, to get this established.
	So they'll be joining us in the second hour.
	We'll have John Kiriakou, CIA whistleblower, commenting on Gina Haspel and on torture in the third hour.
	But as we look at this, as I said, it's completely changed our society.
	It has been used as justification for the government to do basically whatever it wants to do, which is to have permanent war.
	And we've had permanent war since then.
	And we are at war for, we would have had war for all eight years of George W. Bush if they had done 9-11 sooner.
	But we did have war for all eight years of Barack Obama.
	First time that's ever happened. First time that's ever happened.
	Didn't even happen with the Civil War.
	And so, and it's not just one nation.
	I don't even know how many nations we're at war with.
	Last time, I think we got an official count of something like seven, but then we got a lot of covert wars that are going on, and we got some more that are starting up.
	So, you know, keep your...
	Keep your abacus ready because you're going to have to start using that thing.
	As the headlines read from Time's leader, they say, unlimited war powers to the present are now under proposal.
	People have looked at this authorization for the use of military forces and said, you know what?
	This isn't a good idea.
	And it's been sold to us as a bipartisan idea from Cain and Corker, you know, Hillary Clinton's running mate, Senator from Virginia, Cain, and Corker, that guy who is so tied to the Obamacare industry.
	They're gonna make it worse.
	Just like they fixed the Patriot Act.
	Just like they fixed the dragnet surveillance of the American public with the USA Freedom Act.
	Yeah. And as they point out, the near future Congress will debate this authorization for the use of military force.
	And you can put that debate in air quotes.
	Even if they bring this thing up, expect this is what's going to happen.
	Rand Paul has pointed out where this is going to go.
	He said back in April 20th, He wrote out to his constituents.
	He said, The Haqqani Network in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
	Number eight, Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb in Nigeria.
	Mali, Algeria, Libya, Nigeria.
	See, this is why I say I don't know how many wars we're at.
	And then number nine, this is almost like the top ten list of David Letterman.
	The top ten reasons to go to war forever.
	But here's number nine, because that gives us all the reasons we ever need.
	And associated forces.
	As defined by the President throughout the globe.
	So if we left anything out, so this is almost kind of like the Bill of Rights in reverse.
	Remember how we had, we said, you know, in the Declaration of Independence we have certain rights that are inalienable, that we get from God?
	But we're going to list some of these because they're so important.
	Free speech, the ability to defend ourselves, have due process and trial and so forth.
	And then we got to the 9th and the 10th Amendment and we said, oh, by the way, if we left anything out, That means that you don't get to assume that you have it.
	And anything that we didn't expressly give to you, that's still kept by the states and people.
	Well, this is kind of the other way around.
	They list all these different places, and then the last one is a catch-all phrase.
	It says, oh, and by the way, if we left anything out, we can just stick it in, calling it an associated force.
	So, should Congress declare war?
	You know, Rand Paul basically said what this does is it stands all of this on its head.
	You know, any...
	We'll talk about this when we come back.
	But basically, all wars are permitted unless expressly prohibited.
	And then it puts the burden on Congress not to declare war, but to undeclare war.
	We'll be right back. I'm David Knight.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	There's going to be nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide. nowhere to hide.
	We're going to, if we put through this correction of the abuse of the authorization of military forces, Rand Paul points out, we're going to declare war on 20 nations.
	Like I said, you know, hey, we got declared wars.
	More or less, they didn't have it declared constitutionally.
	But we're at war with at least seven nations that we know of.
	But if we go with this, this whole list of...
	They call out a whole bunch of different countries in these eight itemized things here.
	And then they throw in number nine.
	And all associated forces.
	What is that? Well, it's deliberately ambiguous because they put in there, as defined by the president, throughout the globe.
	And so, for starters, we'll be at war by conservative estimates, points out Rand Paul, if the Kane-Corker authorization for use of military force goes through.
	We'll instantly be at war with 20 nations.
	And so we'll talk about that in just a moment.
	And then I want to talk about some of the things that came out of the hearing with Gina Haspel.
	And of course, in the next hour, we're going to be talking to the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry about how this all started.
	The original authorization for the use of military force began with the official conspiracy story of the federal government.
	Is that conspiracy story able to stand up to fact-checking and a grand jury investigation?
	That's what we'd all like to know.
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	Now, just to briefly touch on this authorization for the use of military force, as I quickly said before we went to break, and I want to repeat this because it needs to be repeated, what Rand Paul said.
	He said, under this bill, Congress could only disapprove of war.
	That turns the Constitution on its head.
	See, we had the idea, because we were a Christian society, that you don't go to war Unless you can justify it.
	That means that you're attacked first.
	And that means that you have a clear statement as to why you're going to war to respond to that aggression.
	You're going to try to stop that aggression.
	When the aggression stops, the war stops.
	You don't have an endless war.
	And you try to minimize civilian casualties, a whole bunch of different things like that that are part of a Christian tradition, codified by Augustine.
	That was the just war concept.
	And it is, regardless of what denomination of Christianity are, pretty much everybody in Christian society understood that.
	And when Christianity informed our society, even the people who weren't believers, they still had the ethics and the morality that permeated society because of that Christian belief.
	Just as you have people in Islamic society.
	Maybe they don't believe in the Quran.
	Maybe they don't follow it. But they have the values that come out of the Quran.
	Well, we had values that came out of the Bible.
	And when those were codified into the just war, we put into our constitution the idea that we would have a public debate as to whether or not we were going to go to war.
	Now, after the war started, we didn't want to have debates as to how it was going to be conducted, so we gave that authority to the executive.
	We made him commander-in-chief and said he's going to operate the war when it begins, but we're going to decide whether this is a justified war or not.
	We're going to have a debate. Our representatives in Congress are going to decide whether or not we're going to fight a war.
	We would not do that anymore. And under this authorization of the use of military force, Congress could only disapprove of a war.
	In other words, all wars are permitted unless expressly prohibited.
	You know, we have that kind of situation in reverse.
	We should have the ability to take any medicine that we want.
	But because of the FDA and because of the drug war, everything is prohibited to us unless it is expressly permitted by the FDA. And then they can force treatment on us as well.
	And so now what we're going to say is we're not going to have a debate for whether or not we should start a war.
	We're only going to have a debate if the president gets us into a war and we want to get out of a war.
	How do you think that's going to happen? Because once a war starts and you want to debate this...
	If you oppose that war, you're going to be identified as an ally of the enemy.
	People will already be dying on the American side.
	And you think it's bad when you push back against the Russian collusion narrative that's put out there in a political war against President Trump.
	As soon as you push back on any of the phony stuff that's put out there, oh, you're a Russian ally.
	Well, of course, that's always what happens in a war situation.
	So, Rand Paul says, Congress can only disapprove of the war.
	It turns the Constitution on its head.
	And even worse, any resolution of disapproval could be vetoed by the President.
	So, there doesn't even matter.
	Don't even need to have that debate.
	Meaning that two-thirds of Congress would need to disapprove of a war rather than have a majority to approve of the war.
	That is a huge, unwise, unconstitutional change brought to us By Hillary Clinton's running mate and the chief of the Never Trumpers, Bob Corker.
	Rand Paul said that isn't an authorization for the use of military force.
	That isn't Congress reclaiming its constitutional duties.
	That is a complete rewriting of the role of the executive and the constitutional separation of powers.
	This is where we are. 17 years after 9-11, and we'll be talking to the Lawyers Committee about 9-11 in the next hour.
	Now, as we talk about Gina Haspel, I want to give you a related article here.
	We have a couple of nuns that were arrested for torturing 65 children.
	Two nuns in Western Columbia have been arrested for allegedly torturing as many as 65 children.
	They push their heads into toilets, and they burn kids' hands, among other things.
	And so I'd ask you about this, because I don't really know if America cares anymore about ethics and morality.
	I have seen so many people who are blindly loyal to a political party or to a president, to President Trump, because he supports torture.
	They say, oh, well, you know, hey, it works.
	President Trump says it works, so it works.
	And I don't really care whether it works at this point or not.
	If we're going to throw out ethics and morality, but maybe it's not really even worth having a discussion about ethics and morality.
	Maybe we are casting our pearls before the swine who only want to feed at the trough of safety.
	Or at least the trough of promised safety.
	Because guess what? You throw away your dignity, your liberty, your constitution, you're not going to be safe.
	And you're going to be in a constant state of war.
	And eventually, that war is going to come to us.
	It may not be limited just to economic consequences.
	It may not just be that we bankrupt our American empire.
	And so when we look at this, I guess when we look at this situation of the 65 children tortured by nuns, should we ask, but did it work?
	Did these kids behave?
	Because if it worked, go ahead and stick their heads in the toilet and burn their hands.
	Right? It doesn't matter whether it's ethical or moral or legal.
	If it works, if you can make these kids do it, go ahead.
	Beat the crap out of them.
	Torture them. That's fine.
	Because that's what we're saying as the American public looks at this situation.
	The American public is roughly divided into three parts.
	Three equal parts.
	One part that says that torturing Gina Haspel are wrong.
	Another part that says she's okay.
	Another part says, well, I don't know.
	And so I'm talking to those third of you that say, I don't know, or I don't care.
	Would you care if a couple of nuns did this to your kid?
	Because, you know, you might be in this situation.
	We, because of the authorization of military force that we had after 9-11, we've had the whole world technically declared a war zone.
	And we had stuck into the NDAA where they fund the military.
	And of course, we've got to pass it because it funds the military.
	So don't question anything that gets put in there.
	We had Obama stick in their indefinite detention and possible rendition by the military taking you to a foreign country without trial, without due process as part of that NDAA. So is that okay?
	Well, in this...
	Central American country of Columbia, they said no.
	They charged the nuns with aggravated torture of children under their care for three years.
	But we didn't do that to the CIA. They got away with it.
	The person who reported the crime went to jail.
	We'll be talking to him in hour number three.
	Stay with us.
	I'm David Knight.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act and...
	And now your host, David Knight.
	Gina Haspel took questions yesterday for a few hours from the Senate committee.
	She passed through that test for them.
	They're going to recommend her to become the director of the CIA. She's acting director now.
	She was deputy director. As Pompeo was promoted to secretary of state, she assumed the position of acting director.
	And as we look at this...
	We're going to take a look at Ray McGovern, 78 years old, dragged out of the confirmation hearings at one point.
	They were very rough with him.
	This isn't the first time this has happened to Ray McGovern.
	He is a 27-year veteran of the CIA. He used to do the presidential daily briefings for President Reagan from the CIA. And he is not on board with how this country has changed since 9-11.
	There he is being manhandled and frog-marched out of there.
	And you know, when I see the way that they treat Ray McGovern, I see the way that they jailed John Kiriakou, our guest in the third hour.
	Remember that poem, No Man Survives When Freedom Fails?
	The best men rot and filthy jails.
	Those who cry appease, appease, are hanged by those they try to please.
	Who are we trying to please? Will we make excuses for people who ran this torture program?
	Is this out of partisan loyalty?
	Are we trying to please the president?
	Are we trying to please national security?
	Are we trying to get safety for ourselves?
	Is that why we're throwing away the rule of law?
	And our dignity and liberty?
	You know, Ray McGovern has done this before.
	He was at a 2011 speech, George Washington University, given by then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
	What he did then was he stood up, turned his back to her during her remarks.
	He did that for five minutes.
	They told him, sit down.
	It was a silent protest.
	He didn't heckle her or anything.
	Just stood up with his back to her.
	I said, I don't respect you.
	Now, because you're a Republican, perhaps, if you're listening to this program, I don't know, maybe you're not affiliated with the program, but does this make him a good guy because he stood up to Hillary Clinton, or does it make him a good guy because he stood up to what Hillary Clinton did?
	See, will the Democrats condemn Hillary Clinton when she does the wrong thing?
	Will Republicans condemn Trump or even Reagan when they do the wrong things?
	In response to that, they got pretty rough with him.
	They arrested him.
	They charged him with disorderly conduct.
	They put him on the State Department's be on the lookout list, the BOLO list, if you're in law enforcement.
	That means that law enforcement could stop and question him on site.
	Don't need a reason. He's on the BOLO list.
	Now, they removed that a couple of weeks later.
	He got his lawyer to sue them for using excessive force and so forth.
	Also, the George Washington Police Department and also the University and State Department for violating his right to peacefully protest.
	And then he did it again in 2014.
	He was arrested by the New York City Police Department at an event where former CIA director David Petraeus was giving a speech.
	And then he got arrested again yesterday at the Gina Haspel hearings.
	He had written an op-ed piece, Will a Torturer Become CIA Director?
	a couple of days ago. He said there's no secret that Haspel oversaw detainee torture, including waterboarding at a CIA black site in Thailand.
	He said she later drafted a cable ordering the destruction of dozens of videotapes of torture sessions, including some of those that happened before her arrival.
	See, that's the issue.
	For some senators like Angus King, he said she never, and you'll hear John Kiriakou say, you know, she had an opportunity to make a case saying, we thought we were doing the right thing.
	We thought we were obeying the law.
	We thought it was effective. She never said that.
	She wouldn't say that.
	And furthermore, as Senator King said, All of this destruction of records that happened was after everybody determined that it wasn't the right thing.
	It wasn't effective. It was immoral and illegal.
	And she went ahead and covered it up.
	How's that for an obstruction?
	But that's okay. We'll make her head of the CIA, says President Trump.
	We'll be right back. I'm David Knight.
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	You found it.
	It's the real news. .
	Live from the InfoWars.com studios in Austin, Texas, it's your host, David Knight.
	Welcome back.
	I'm David Knight.
	We're going to take a look a little bit at some of the consequences of the Gina Haspel hearing.
	In the next segment, we're going to be joined by the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry.
	This is how we got to having a Gina Haspel as a CIA director.
	It was 9-11.
	That's where this all began.
	That's how we got these wars that never end.
	The authorization for the use of military forces is going to instantly put us at war with 20 countries, as Rand Paul pointed out.
	And then it's got a catch-all phrase there saying the president can define any associated groups that he wishes.
	And then he can go to war with them immediately.
	And the Congress will have to disapprove of wars instead of approving of wars.
	That's the Constitution on its head.
	And not only that, but the President can veto their disapproval.
	How about that? This is the upside-down world that we have, and it began with 9-11.
	So we're going to talk about the official government conspiracy theory that started all this with the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry in the next segment.
	But let's talk about what happened yesterday at the hearing at Ray McGovern.
	This is a guy who worked for the CIA for 27 years, and when he retired in 1990, Ray McGovern, who's now 78 years old, you're going to see him roughed up at these committee hearings.
	Ray McGovern received the CIA's Intelligence Commendation Medal.
	He had worked with the CIA, starting with John F. Kennedy all the way through George H.W. Bush.
	He used to, in the mid-1980s, he was a senior analyst, and he conducted early morning briefings, one-on-one with the vice president, the joint chiefs of staff chair, secretaries of state, secretaries of defense, and so forth.
	He was a guy who gave them the daily intelligence briefs.
	He's trying to give us some intelligence about what our country has become.
	Here's what happened at the hearings yesterday.
	A quick overview from RT. There he is being drug out.
	The second person in that video right there who was wrestled to the ground by security and then escorted out is 79-year-old CIA veteran Ray McGovern.
	He served at the agency for 27 years but then became a political activist protesting the use of torture programs.
	And McGovern is a staunch critic of Gina Haspel.
	We contacted his lawyer who told us that Mr.
	McGovern did spend the night in jail.
	Do you believe the program, in terms of the interrogation program, was consistent with American values?
	We have decided to hold ourselves to a stricter moral standard.
	Are they consistent with American values?
	Senator, I believe very strongly in American values.
	I want to trust that you...
	Are they consistent? Oh, I'm brilliant in American values.
	You have. I have conducted myself honorably and in accordance with US law.
	Do you believe that the previous interrogation techniques were immoral?
	What I believe sitting here today is that I support the higher moral standard we have decided to hold ourselves to.
	Can you please answer the question? Senator, I think I've answered the question.
	No, you've not. She has been doing literally everything she can think to do Other than telling the truth about the CIA's torture program to get this job.
	Gina Haspel had the opportunity to say the right thing.
	That this was a dark period in U.S. history.
	People made mistakes.
	The program was immoral.
	It was illegal. It was unconstitutional.
	She never said any of that.
	The most recent poll suggests that only a third of Americans believe that the alleged involvement in torture renders Haspel unfit for the post of CIA chief.
	See, that's a sad situation we're in.
	That last poll there. The U.S. population roughly divided between the people who say it was wrong, people who said, we don't care, it worked, we think, and another third of the people who said, well, I don't know, I don't care.
	That's the sad situation we are.
	Now, that last person that you heard quoted before the poll, that was John Kiriakou.
	He's going to be with us in the third hour.
	He wrote an op-ed piece called The Conservative Case Against Gina Haspel.
	He points out most of his progressive friends don't know that he was a former adjunct professor of intelligence studies at Liberty University.
	And Ray McGovern, in talking about, well, a torturer becomes CIA director, who was at the beginning of that clip, Ray...
	He wrote this article and he said, you know, polls show, and that's the last thing we saw there was a poll, polls show that most Americans, including Catholics, because Ray McGovern is a Catholic, have been persuaded by Hollywood films and by TV series, you know, things like 24, Kiefer Sutherland.
	So, you know, this is the Kiefer Sutherland fiction world that we live in.
	And by President Trump himself that torture works.
	President Trump said in January 2017, absolutely I feel it works.
	And so he says, so we've got a utilitarian tone that dominates this discussion.
	In other words, we don't really care about ethics.
	We don't care about legality.
	Does it work? That's the American approach, right?
	I don't care. Is it tough on terrorists?
	Does it really work? Well, he says it doesn't really work.
	So we're going to throw out the ethical considerations because America no longer cares about ethics and morality anymore.
	But he says, first of all, it coerces false intelligence.
	And this is what Ray McGovern said.
	The guy who used to brief President Reagan and so forth on brief presidents for 27 years.
	The latter part of it, he was briefing the presidents.
	He didn't do that his entire 27 years.
	But he said, on September the 6th, 2006, General John Kimmins, the Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, maybe he knows things that work and don't work, do you think?
	Chose to address this issue publicly at a Pentagon press conference just one hour before he knew that President George W. Bush would publicly extol the virtues of torture methods.
	General Kimmins, the Army Deputy Chief of Staff, said no good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices.
	I think history tells us that.
	I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, five hard years, tells us that.
	Army Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, who was the Chief of Staff to Secretary of State Colin Powell, has explained how his boss was mousetrapped by CIA Director George Tenet and his deputy, John McLaughlin, as Colonel Wilkerson was putting the final touches on Secretary Powell's misbegotten speech to Iraq and the UN Security Council on February 5, 2003. Mr.
	Tenet, CIA Director, Used information that he knew was from torture to mislead Powell into claiming that there was a sinister nexus between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda.
	So, we've had 109 generals and admirals.
	If you think that it works, maybe you should listen to them.
	Maybe they know what works.
	Maybe the Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence knows what works and doesn't work.
	Maybe the people who were at the Pentagon and as they learned that this intelligence that was fed to them was obtained by torture said, we've been had.
	Maybe they know what works.
	Maybe they haven't been watching 24.
	Maybe they've been living in the real world and maybe you've been gaslighted by Hollywood and politicians.
	Maybe you've been gaslighted by 9-11.
	To the point where you don't even care about ethics and morality anymore.
	Ray McGovern doesn't give up on it.
	And so he finishes after he talks about, well, does it work?
	No, it doesn't. Then he talks about the idea of intrinsic evil.
	He said he grew up, he went to Catholic school.
	He said, we were taught that there was a moral category called intrinsic evil.
	That included things like rape, slavery, and torture.
	He said, sadly though, torture seems to have slipped out of that well-defined moral category into some kind of a gray world.
	Yeah, that's exactly what we have.
	And he talks about the fact that you've got people like John Brennan who were embraced by his former alma mater that used to teach him that torture was wrong.
	Now they embrace those things.
	And I'm really sad to say, I always see these comments every time I talk about this.
	Well, we've got a lot of people. President Trump says some of the, some experts have told him that it works.
	Name them. And I can name 109 former generals and admirals who put their names on a piece of, this is not anonymous people, some who say that, I'm sure that John Bolton is going to say that if he's some kind of an expert.
	He's going to tell you that regime change works.
	Have you seen regime change work?
	I haven't seen regime change work.
	We've been doing it for a long time.
	Goes back to the 1950s with Iran.
	All it's done is make Iran more dangerous every time we do that.
	And it makes our world more dangerous.
	Gina Haspel said, I don't believe terrorists follow any guidelines or civilized norms or the law.
	She said that in response to these questions.
	Well, Gina, by that definition, you are a terrorist.
	You don't follow any guidelines, civilized norms, or the law either.
	We'll be right back. I'm David Knight.
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	Frank in North Carolina, thanks for holding so long.
	Go ahead. Yeah, I just have to say something, man.
	It seems like every time I turn on your broadcast, you're bragging.
	It just gets old, man.
	I'm going to shut you down right now, okay?
	We're taking calls about your nomination.
	Do you understand they're having congressional hearings trying to shut us down?
	Do you understand I'm ringing the alarm?
	If that was happening to anybody else, I'd be freaked out.
	I mean, what's it gonna take?
	Us being shut down?
	Is that what you want, Frank?
	You know what, Alex? Put him on pause again.
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	Revolution.
	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Welcome back.
	We're going to have the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry joining us in the next segment.
	We've had some technical difficulty with them, but they are going to be with us in the next segment.
	They plan to join us this segment.
	That gives us a little bit more time to talk about the Gina Haspel hearing because she was there for about five hours before the committee.
	And we're going to give you some of the back and forth that happened there.
	But we're also going to tell you what is truly at the bottom of this.
	It looks like she has secured the committee votes to be recommended to the Senate in general to be confirmed.
	The question is whether or not they will have the votes to confirm this.
	Now this is breaking down along partisan lines for the most part.
	And that's really a shame. You know, our ethics, our morality, and even understanding that whether or not this is effective or not.
	Oh, they're ready now.
	We do have them on the line. Okay, well let's go ahead, because I wanted to give them as much time as possible.
	It looks like we have solved those issues with getting the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry on.
	So let's go directly to them.
	I'll introduce the two individuals that we have here.
	We have Julio Gomez and we also have David Mieswinkle.
	And they are both attorneys that are working with the organization that is trying to get this whole issue, the government conspiracy theory that has been the source of our unending wars since 9-11.
	They're trying to get this examined.
	You know, we got over 3,000 people who died on these attacks.
	Wouldn't it be good if we got the right person?
	You know, it's not enough when you have an atrocity just to go out and grab somebody or to go out and invade a country.
	You want to make sure that you got the right suspects who did this.
	And you want to make sure when you're dealing with the government that they're not doing something to create a narrative so they can enact a program that they already had there.
	So I want to talk to them now about the legal aspects of this.
	They're trying to get a grand jury set up on this.
	So joining us now are Julio Gomez and David Mieswinkle.
	Thank you for joining us, gentlemen. Thank you very much.
	Thank you for having us. And let me give the website as well.
	It's lcfor911.org.
	That's the Lawyers Committee for 9-11.org.
	Thank you for joining us, sir. Both of you.
	Thank you very much for having us.
	Let's talk, first of all, we'll get into some of the details because you've got a lot of exhibits talking about forensic evidence.
	But let's give people the big picture right now.
	What are you trying to accomplish here in terms of trying to get a federal grand jury to investigate this?
	Well, thank you, David.
	Basically, under U.S. federal law, 18 U.S. Code, section 3332A, A citizen has the opportunity to present evidence to a U.S. attorney, and then the U.S. attorney is bound by law to bring that evidence of a federal crime to a grand jury.
	So what we have done is we have collected a variety of evidence and information that is consistent with the use of explosives at the World Trade Center on 9-11.
	We have prepared that along with what is essentially a brief that details that information.
	We've submitted that to the U.S. Attorney in the Southern District of New York.
	We did that on April the 10th.
	And what we're asking the U.S. attorney in New York to do is to convene a grand jury or a special grand jury and to present the information in our petition to that grand jury with the hope and expectation the grand jury of Manhattan citizens will follow up and use the powers that they have as a grand jury to take the investigation further, to investigate, to subpoena everyone who is identified in our petition, to question them about their conclusions.
	And to follow through with identifying persons who may have additional information that the grand jury can then explore.
	And then if it is so convinced, issue indictments regarding the use of explosives on 9-11 at the World Trade Center.
	And, you know, a grand jury is a very powerful thing, especially if you get some honest people on it.
	I remember when they had the Oklahoma City bombing grand jury, and there was one prominent citizen who was put on it, Hoppy Heidelberg, and he started asking some very uncomfortable questions about that particular incident.
	And it got very difficult for the government.
	They had to... They had to maneuver away from that.
	So that is a very powerful device to have that.
	So you're at the point now where you've put together this lengthy legal documents, 50-some-odd pages, laying out the legal case that you just gave us an overview of.
	Here's the terms of how grand juries are organized under law.
	And the process and the rights of citizens to report potential federal crimes to a grand jury and the fact that the Department of Justice has to relay those citizens' reports to a grand jury.
	You've laid out all that stuff there, and you've also got forensic reports.
	I mean, what happens to it at this point?
	I mean, what is the next step?
	Well, the next step is to give the U.S. attorney time to act.
	So we are at this time in sort of a holding pattern.
	We do intend, as our transmittal letter to the U.S. attorney states, to supplement the information we've already provided.
	So there will be an opportunity for us to give even more information to the U.S. attorney to present.
	Nevertheless, right now the U.S. attorney should be either convening or presenting or deciding to present to a grand jury.
	And the clock is ticking.
	After a certain point, we expect to follow up with them to find out whether they have in fact done so or are planning to do so.
	And if we receive word that they have not or plan not to after a certain point, then we have the opportunity under the law to go to federal court and seek a writ of mandamus where the court would order the U.S. attorney to comply with the law and present.
	So that would be the next step if it came to that.
	Alright, that's great. Right now, you're before the Court of Public Opinion.
	And I think whether or not the federal government gives you an honest hearing or whether they try to slow walk this or delay this, now we have an opportunity for you guys to make this case to the court of public opinion.
	Let's talk a little bit about the forensic evidence that you've outlined here in your long presentation here.
	Tell us a little bit about some of the evidence that you've created.
	Give us an overview of that and then give us some specifics, if you will.
	Right, David. Why don't I start?
	Go ahead. We have to realize that 17 years later, what we're doing is compiling the evidence and submitting it to a grand jury, but this should have been done from the beginning.
	Yes. It's a crime in a sense that it wasn't done from the beginning.
	There are 118 firemen that heard explosions in the buildings, 155 first responders.
	All told.
	There were people that experienced explosions in the basement prior to the building even being hit by an airplane.
	There are scientists that have found red-gray chips, which are indicative when they study them with an electronic microscope of nanothermite.
	It's a high-grade military explosive that was, we believe, involved in bringing the buildings down.
	You have unexplained happenings with the physicists have studied the freefall of the buildings.
	It's impossible for a building to fall at a freefall rate.
	The two towers fell at nearly a freefall.
	Building 7 fell for 2.3 seconds at freefall.
	Even the NIST, the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which was called in to investigate Absolutely right.
	Hang on, we're going to come back to that.
	We've got to take a break. We're going to be right back.
	And of course, Building 7, that third building, wasn't even hit by a plane.
	Still came down in free fall.
	Very interesting, isn't it?
	We're going to fact check the government conspiracy theories.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Real News with David Knight.
	For the electronic Berlin Wall of disinformation, it's your host, live and uncensored, David Knight.
	Welcome back. I'm David Knight, and we're talking to a couple of lawyers with the Lawyers Committee for 9-11 Inquiry.
	You can find their website, lcfor911.org.
	LC, as in Lawyers Committee, the word for, and 911.org.
	They have put together a very detailed document talking about the legal requirement to have a grand jury investigation if citizens exercise their rights to report a crime and evidence of a crime.
	They have worked with a lot of people who have been putting together evidence that refutes the official conspiracy story of the government.
	They want that evidence presented.
	And as we just heard, I think it was David Mieswinkle say, that we should have had a grand jury investigation already.
	Instead, we had kind of a political commission that went through.
	They just had a lot of people reporting that they heard explosions.
	We had President Trump, by the way.
	And we're going to play this clip for you, probably after our guest leave, because I don't want to take any time away from them.
	But President Trump, immediately after that, saying, that's a very strong building.
	It's one of the strongest skyscrapers I've ever seen.
	You know, they tried to blow it up back in the 90s.
	They put a bomb in the foundation.
	Didn't even do anything to that building.
	He says, all steel on the outside.
	He goes, I can't see that happening with just planes hitting it.
	There had to be explosions, said President Trump at the time.
	Well, he was exactly right. And, gentlemen, I want to ask you, and I do want to go back to this forensic evidence that you're breaking down, Mr.
	Meiswinkle, but also, as lawyers, don't you find it strange that there weren't any repercussions against the architects of that building if these three buildings just collapsed into their footprint?
	And, of course, Building 7 wasn't even hit by a plane.
	I mean, if that were the case, wouldn't you expect that there would be lawsuits against the architects for designing such faulty buildings or against the building inspectors who obviously maybe failed if the architects didn't fail?
	Well, there were...
	A matter of the fact that the buildings weren't faulty, they were very well made.
	What's the problem is the government's reports are faulty.
	In fact, the WTC... That was a rhetorical question.
	In the Building 7 that comes mysteriously down at freefall rate at 2.3 seconds...
	Their reports, which took eight years to generate, left out some very important things.
	They left out the stiffener plates, they left out the shear studs, they left out the lateral support beams, and they put the wrong seating capacity for this one girder, 2001, which was connected to the column 79 on the 13th floor.
	And when this supposedly area gives out, there's a cascade and the whole building comes down in 6.5 seconds.
	You must remember this third skyscraper was 47 stories high.
	610 feet would be the biggest building in 33 states.
	It came down, was not hit by an airplane.
	Simple office fires.
	Office fires, normally they would burn probably 400, 500 degrees Fahrenheit.
	Even if it was hit by an airplane, it would only burn probably about 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit with the jet fuel.
	But to melt steel, it takes 2,800 degrees Fahrenheit.
	There was temperatures down at the bottom of these buildings which were hotter than anything that could have been at the top of the buildings months later.
	Which shows you that there was extreme temperatures that caused the melting of metal, the melting of iron.
	In fact, the fireman said it looked like lava down there.
	It was cascading or rolling down the channels like lava that would indicate the use of explosions.
	The only way you can explain the iron microspheres that were found in the electronic microscopes Iron, microspheres, the iron would be a leftover byproduct of the nanothermite.
	So to go back to your question about the flawed buildings from the architects, these buildings were made to stand.
	They were brought down by...
	Controlled demolition explosions and bombs, the only way they could be brought down, and all the reports that were done by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, or I would say there were fraudulent reports, even FEMA told NIST that they should look for these, do an examination of these high temperatures.
	But they never did an examination for high temperatures.
	They never checked for accelerants.
	They never checked for explosives.
	First thing you learn in the fire academy, I've been told, fire standards is to do that.
	The evidence wasn't protected.
	First thing you do as a police officer, I'm a former police officer, is to protect the scene.
	You protect the metal. The same with the fire standards.
	You protect the metal. You examine it forensically.
	You see it with sulfidation.
	Sulfidation can only occur with extreme heat.
	Extreme heat can't be generated from jet fuel from the airplane or from simple office fires, which the government said.
	Simple office fires brought the buildings down.
	Never in the history of these steel-structured buildings has a building come down from a simple office fire.
	Impossible. Never will happen again.
	It happened that day three times.
	Has to be investigated. Finally, 17 years later, Hopefully, the grand jury will look at it, and as the grand jury is like the people that are listening in, regular people that are going to use their common sense, we would say, go to the exhibits.
	The exhibits show the buildings coming down in the North Tower, the South Tower, and the Building 7, and you'll say, my God, these buildings were exploded down.
	It's just common sense.
	Without the science, the scientists, though, they support it, and that's why, you know, there's no politics to grind here.
	The science is the science.
	Free fall. There's a law there.
	It is a resistance.
	Buildings can't come down the way they did, the way the government explained it.
	The only way they can come down is if they were exploded to come down.
	That's right. Facts are stubborn things.
	People have been looking at these facts for quite some time.
	Before we go to you, Mr.
	Gomez, I just wanted to follow up with Mr.
	Meiswinkle. When I said, well, what if these buildings were faulty or the building codes were faulty, you said they left out all this stuff.
	That was left out of their reports.
	That was left out of their models, just to clarify that, those various things that you were very specific about.
	Yes, thanks for pointing it out, David.
	What happened was it took eight years to give these reports.
	Eventually, architects, Tony Zambotti, he was a mechanical engineer, he was able to get a hold of the blueprints and other architects and engineers too, and they saw that NIST purposely left off the stiffener plates, the shear studs, the lateral support beams, and they were on the building.
	And as they were on the building, these buildings could have never came down the way NIST said they came down.
	In other words, they fudged the report.
	They should be held accountable for that.
	Yes, yes. Very important.
	Mr. Gomez, go ahead. Well, yes, you'd have to rewrite the building codes, and you would have to refurbish every building in the United States if simple fires on certain floors can bring down entire buildings of this size and magnitude.
	Yeah, and let me interject here.
	Tony Rook in the UK, his father was a police officer, and he got together with other firemen in the UK, and they said, if this is the case...
	Why aren't we also changing not just the building codes, but why aren't we also changing our firefighting procedures?
	And so he was taking it to the UK government and saying, you know, because the UK government is saying this is true.
	You know, the BBC said, oh, we've just been told that Building 7 fell down and it was right over her shoulder as she was saying that.
	Why would she expect that that was going to be the case?
	You'd never had a building, a steel building fall down in its footprint just from office fires, as Mr.
	Meiswinkle was saying. That had never happened before.
	But yeah, It's not only the building codes as you just pointed out, Mr.
	Gomez, but it's also firefighting procedures and so forth.
	None of that stuff changed afterwards.
	We just changed our laws and constitution.
	That's correct. So what we've done in the petition, David, is you'll see very clearly the petition breaks down the evidence into three very simple categories.
	They are forensic evidence, expert opinion and testimony.
	Those are the three basic types of evidence that are presented in any court of law in just about any case that requires some sort of scientific analysis.
	And then in more detail, David Meiswinkle, my colleague, has covered some of it.
	But essentially, the forensic evidence focuses on an analysis of the Dwell Trade Center dust samples, confirming the presence of high-tech explosives.
	The expert opinion in the petition ranges from expert opinions from architects and engineers to Whose observations indicate that the fall is consistent with the characteristics of demolition by use of explosives.
	It also includes an analysis of the seismic data at World Trade Center, which again is consistent with the use of explosives.
	It is absolutely true.
	There is no precedent for a steel frame building to collapse in this way for this type of reason.
	There are technical analyses, video evidence of the World Trade Center building collapses attached to our petition.
	All right, hang on, Mr. Gomez. We've got to take a quick break here, and we're going to be right back with David Meiswinkle and Julio Gomez of LCFOR911.org.
	We need to have an investigation for the event that changed our country.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Welcome back.
	I'm David Knight.
	We're talking about the incident that not only took 3,000 lives.
	I mean, that in and of itself should have warranted a thorough grand jury investigation at the time.
	I'm talking about 9-11, of course.
	We're talking to the Lawyers Committee for 9-11.
	You can find their website at lc.com.
	F-O-R-9-1-1.org.
	Lawyers Committee for 9-11.org.
	They are trying to get, finally, a legitimate grand jury investigation.
	Not a political commission that's running through this.
	And I want to go back to...
	We're going to talk to Mr.
	Gomez, Julio Gomez. He was talking about the different aspects that they want to make sure that the categories this all breaks down into.
	The forensic evidence, the expert opinion...
	The eyewitness testimonies and videos and that's all part of this massive document that they put together to begin this legal process for a long overdue investigation that has been used to transform our country.
	And we want to see justice done as well, but we also want to know the basis for which they transformed our country, if that truly does stand up to an examination of the facts.
	Many of us don't believe that it does, and of course these gentlemen who have been investigating this for a very long time don't believe it does.
	Before we go back to Mr. Gomez, Mr.
	Mieswinkle, David Mieswinkle, I would like to, since you said you're a former police officer, and you said they skipped over the investigation of the temperature at the site, as NIST had said that they should do, it looked like the...
	The investigation, the simulation of the collapse of Building 7, they intentionally left out a lot of structures that were there.
	They didn't do explosive tests and everything.
	But also, as you point out, destroying the scene of the crime.
	As a police officer, you pointed out that you always take care to preserve the scene of the crime.
	They did just the opposite, didn't they, Mr.
	Meiswinkle? Excuse me.
	That's right. The first thing you learn in the academy is to preserve the scene of a crime.
	This wasn't just any crime.
	It happened to be the worst crime in our history.
	And approximately 3,000 people were killed.
	Yes. So that would be the protocol is to protect it, to have your ID people come in to examine, especially the steel.
	Also to take account of the pulverization of concrete, which is quite amazing.
	That whole day, everything that happened, not only in New York City, but throughout the other areas, the Shanksville and the Pentagon, Everything was strange and has to really be looked at.
	As I said, too, the protocol for fire to prevent the spoilation of evidence so they can look at it.
	The fire departments would normally, with this type of catastrophe, always check for accelerants and explosives.
	NIST made a point not to do that.
	That's the first thing they should have done.
	That's the most logical hypothesis.
	They assumed the least likely hypothesis, which had never happened before, that office fires could bring the buildings down.
	Yeah, and they just wanted to move along as quickly as they could so they could enact their public agenda.
	And of course, as you point out, a lot of strange things that were happening.
	It wasn't just confined to what happened in New York.
	You had Gore Vidal say, I knew instantly that this wasn't true because my dad was involved in the creation of NORAD. I knew how that would work.
	You've got pilots who say, you couldn't have flown planes that fast at this altitude and so forth.
	And immediately after the events, President Trump looked at this and said, that...
	Couldn't have happened like that. There had to be explosives involved in some way or the other.
	But Mr. Gomez, let's talk a little bit about, let's go back to that evidence.
	We talked about the forensic evidence, the fact that in the dust they have found...
	Presence of high-tech explosives and so forth.
	So there's the forensic evidence.
	We've talked a little bit about expert opinion, how that was rigged by the so-called experts.
	Let's talk a little bit about the eyewitness testimony and some of the existing videos that are part of your exhibits that you have as part of this legal brief that you filed.
	The eyewitness testimony is particularly compelling, David.
	So we have a testimony from World Trade Center Janitor William Rodriguez.
	He was witness to explosions in the basement and in the lobby of the World Trade Center before the plane impacts.
	A grand jury deserves to examine that testimony.
	There's a testimony of former New York Housing Authority official, the late Barry Jennings.
	He was trapped in World Trade Center Building 7 for some time.
	He witnessed explosions in that building.
	There is the eyewitness testimony accounts of numerous firefighters.
	These are official accounts.
	You can find them in New York Times' archives.
	We're, you know, tons of firefighters hear explosions, report synchronized explosives in the building, not just sporadic sounds, but synchronized explosions.
	And more importantly, you have firefighters and police officers who witnessed the presence of molten steel at Ground Zero.
	You can't have molten steel from an ordinary progressive collapse of a building or even from a controlled The old demolition collapse of the building.
	When Las Vegas casinos are brought down to build new ones, you don't generate molten steel in that collapse.
	Molten metal requires sustained, enormous heat for a sustained period of time.
	Something had to generate that kind of heat to melt the steel at ground zero, but no one's ever investigated it.
	This is the kind of evidence and testimony from very reliable witnesses, people who are professionals, that deserves to be studied seriously and investigated further by a grand jury.
	And no grand jury has ever examined this kind of information.
	You had grand jury indictments against Zachariah Massawi.
	You had grand jury indictments against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed for being the mastermind.
	But those indictments don't deal with the actual destruction We're good to go.
	Yes, absolutely. And that, I think, is one of the biggest smoking guns right there.
	Taking away, destroying the crime scene, not having a true investigation.
	As you correctly pointed out, we had the terrorist indicted and they presented evidence against them and so forth, but not looking at the actual scene of the crime.
	Does this actually match the government's official story?
	That's the key thing that was overlooked throughout all of this.
	And no eyewitness testimony was involved in any of that.
	We didn't have any forensic evidence that they skipped over.
	They destroyed forensic evidence there.
	Your comments, Mr. Mieswinkel.
	Well, we're talking about what happened after 9-11.
	The investigation that the government did was up to the building's collapse.
	They never explained the actual collapse and the aftermath.
	When you're talking about what happened to the United States and what happens to our Constitution, We went into a war because of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, which was instigated because of these collapses.
	In other words, we've seen all types of draconian measures come in because of the government's story, which, according to our petition, is misleading and it's wrong.
	It's not what happened.
	So you have our freedoms being undermined with Homeland Security, the Patriot Bill.
	You have the indefinite detention.
	You have all this drone action.
	You have torture of people many times, and the whole narrative is wrong.
	It's misplaced narrative.
	The real narrative, I'm sorry, the real narrative should be looking at this evidence that my colleague Julio just pointed out and examine that and then develop an investigation based on that and lead to suspects based on that evidence.
	That's where you have to go.
	They had the suspects lined up, it seems, before the incident even happened.
	It was rushed to judgment, as you've seen in the Kennedy assassination, the book by Mark Lane.
	There was a rush to judgment.
	It was a rush here to move past this real quick, get into the Middle East, start wars there, kill millions of people unjustifiably, and then they admit, okay, we were wrong about Iraq's involvement, but nevertheless, And they haven't returned us to where we were before 9-11.
	Our Constitution has taken a big hit.
	It's been hijacked.
	Oh, absolutely. And I think that was the purpose of all of this.
	We see them being disproven about weapons of mass destruction and the Iraq War and so forth.
	They need to be disproven about this fundamental thing because it was such a large crime.
	So much destruction was witnessed by people.
	So many people died. But the American public now, as we look at this, and of course this is something that really is a part of the news.
	We just had Gina Haspel's hearings yesterday where they were talking to her about torture.
	This is what has happened to America, that we condone and promote people who engage in torture for things that we used to execute Japanese officers for doing that to American prisoners.
	We came to accept that because we accepted this narrative.
	And we've seen this type of thing happen many times.
	We saw it with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution.
	We saw it with the beginning of the Spanish-American War.
	You know, remember the Maine. Let's do remember the Maine.
	Let's remember the fact that we didn't have an investigation of that for 70 or 80 years.
	And they said, yeah, it didn't really happen the way the government said.
	But they got their war out of it.
	I think that's the most important thing.
	That's why it is so important, this effort that you have to do a grand jury investigation.
	Your comments, Mr. Gomez.
	Well, you're absolutely right, David.
	The event of 9-11, the horror, has been used as a pretext to diminish our constitutional law.
	Yes. And we have to be very clear about the fact that our rights are threatened.
	Habeas corpus has been suspended.
	Oh, everything. Everything in our rule of law.
	Everything in the Constitution and constant war.
	Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us.
	Again, you can find them at lcfor911.org and you can join them and help them to push this forward.
	Do that. lcfor911.org.
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	They use their media to assassinate real news.
	They use their schools to teach children that their president is another Hitler.
	They use their movie stars and singers and comedy shows and award shows to repeat their narrative over and over again.
	And then they use their ex-president to endorse the resistance.
	All to make them march, make them protest, make them scream racism and sexism and xenophobia and homophobia, to smash windows, burn cars, shut down interstates and airports, bully and terrorize the law abiding.
	Until the only option left is for the police to do their jobs and stop the madness.
	And when that happens, they'll use it as an excuse for their outrage.
	The only way we stop this, the only way we save our country and our freedom, is to fight this violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth.
	I'm the National Rifle Association of America, and I'm freedom's safest place.
	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	He's not sorry when snowflakes can't handle the truth.
	It's your host David Knight.
	I just want to encourage everybody who listened to that interview that I have with the two gentlemen for the Lawyers Committee for 9-11, David Meiswinkle and Julio Gomez, I want to encourage you to pass that link around.
	I want to encourage you to push that we might know the truth about 9-11.
	It has become the basis for the transformation of our society into something that I don't recognize.
	And you probably don't recognize it either.
	You certainly aren't going to find it in the Constitution.
	So pass that link around.
	It's lcfor911.org.
	And also pass around the interview that I did with them.
	You'll find that on Real News with David Knight.
	That's our YouTube channel there.
	You know, when we look at where this leads, it is really kind of...
	We're seeing this playing out in the hearings of Gina Haspel.
	The idea that in this worst crime that has been committed on American soil ever, more than 3,000 people killed, and then the crimes against our way of life, our culture, our constitution, our legal protections.
	And I think this is all embodied in the trial and the discussion that we see around Gina Haspel for CIA director.
	The fact that we no longer really even care about what's legal or ethical.
	I want to just go over a report.
	This is an article that came out a while ago, about two months ago.
	The Horrors of Japan's World War II Human Experiments Unit.
	And they had, of course, these are a lot of scientists who came here on Operation Paperclip, and they helped our government to learn how to conduct germ warfare, chemical warfare.
	They were experimenting on Chinese civilians.
	Russian, British, and American POWs were dissected alive.
	They were infected with bubonic plague.
	They were used as human guinea pigs for frostbite treatments.
	They had Unit 731 built in 1936 in modern-day Harbin, northeastern China, for the Japanese Imperial Army to conduct research into germ warfare, into weapons capabilities, and to the limits of the human body.
	And so we look at them cutting people apart alive, skinning them alive.
	And you look at this kind of stuff and you say, well, but was it effective?
	Is that your response to this?
	Did it work? Did we find out something for medical research?
	Because if we did, then it's okay, right?
	Just like it's okay if we torture people for the CIA if we find out something interesting about that.
	And of course, if you think that it is effective, you might want to listen to Ray McGovern who used to brief The President and the Defense Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff used to do those kind of briefings for the CIA. They worked for them for decades.
	You might want to listen to 109 generals and admirals who have retired and said, no, it is not effective.
	But how did Japan get into this situation?
	How did Germany get into this situation, for example?
	See, in Japan, it was this rabid loyalty to the government, to the emperor or whatever.
	Are we starting to look like that in our partisan politics?
	I mean, one of the things that scared me so much about Obama was how he was worshipped by the people who voted for him, the people in his party.
	It's like, wait a minute, this is just a man.
	Understand, this is just a man.
	He can be right about policies, you can agree with him about stuff, or you can disagree with him.
	And the same thing is true about President Trump.
	And I've got to say, the Trump train sometimes scares me to death.
	Because I don't want to see that same kind of emperor worship that we've seen with Hirohito, or that we saw with Adolf Hitler.
	The little bits of it, the beginnings of it that we saw with Obama, and the beginnings of it that we see with President Trump.
	Don't throw out ethics, morality, the rule of law because you like somebody or some system or some political party.
	This is insanity. This is how you get this kind of stuff.
	How did Germany go from a situation that arguably had the highest level of culture in terms of music, in terms of science, how did they turn into the monsters that would torture and experiment on human beings?
	It was because we didn't care about ethics and morality.
	Yeah, it was effective.
	They had some very effective weapons, and they learned a great deal about the human body.
	Isn't that wonderful? So I guess it justifies what they did, didn't it?
	It makes me want to puke.
	And I'm going to talk about what Rush Limbaugh said yesterday because he made me want to puke and I wasn't being waterboarded when I heard what he had to say.
	When I heard him mocking the torture that was done by the CIA in my name and your name.
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	You found it.
	It's the real news.
	It's the real news.
	Live from the InfoWars.com studios in Austin, Texas, it's your host, David Knight.
	Welcome back.
	In the next segment, we're going to be talking to John Kiriakou, the CIA whistleblower who blew the whistle on CIA torture.
	We're going to see what he has to say about Gina Haspel.
	The hearing's yesterday. It looks like she's going to make it.
	She made it through the committee examination.
	I want to play for you a clip of some of the back and forth going on here.
	And I want you to understand that a lot of these Democrats who are asking the right questions of Gina Haspel, A lot of this, however, unfortunately, is just partisanship.
	You understand these same Democrats covered for the drone assassination programs of Barack Obama.
	They covered for the pervasive dragnet surveillance of the American public that was illegal and unconstitutional.
	So this does kind of break down into partisan lines.
	We've got Joe Manchin Becoming the first Democrat, saying that he's going to back the confirmation of Gina Haspel for CIA director.
	And, of course, he also said, West Virginians don't look at me as a Democrat.
	This is a crass political move.
	Do we have anybody in Washington that really cares about liberty?
	Yes, we do. We have Rand Paul.
	We have some with the House Freedom Caucus in the conservative side.
	People who will take the right position regardless who is there.
	We had Ray McGovern. The first time he was arrested was when he stood up and turned his back on Hillary Clinton as she was speaking as Secretary of State.
	They arrested him.
	They beat him up for that.
	They did it again yesterday when he stood up against the individual that's been nominated now by a Republican president.
	He doesn't care about which party or which politician is in power.
	He cares about what's right.
	And we're going to be talking to John Kiriakou in a moment.
	But here's some of the questions, and understand, look, if they say the right stuff, I mean, even John McCain, who I disagree with on everything else, John McCain, who was a warmonger, he was a subject of torture, and that's become a very vital issue for him.
	Yes, he has not been, I don't think he's been very effective in terms of pushing back against terrorists.
	He has, I think, been a part of arming the terrorists and conducting his own foreign policy.
	But I think that that's not where this criticism of Gina Haspel is coming from.
	It's coming from the fact that he himself was tortured.
	It is a very visceral thing for him.
	It really hits him in the gut to see this kind of stuff going on.
	And so he spoke out against it.
	We have people like Ron Wyden, who I don't agree with on anything...
	Typically is on the right side when it comes to surveillance.
	So occasionally these people will be on the right side.
	But even if they're doing it for crass political purposes, we should listen not only to their questions, but we should listen to the way that Gina Haspel lies and prevaricates about this.
	So let's run video clip number three, guys.
	You told me earlier this week that you supported the decision of the CIA's Deputy Director of Operations to order the destruction of those videotapes depicting the use of EITs.
	Would you still support that?
	Enhance interrogation techniques, EITs.
	Senator, I would not.
	I think it's, as I said, it's very important that people learn.
	Experience is a good teacher.
	And the piece that was missing from the tapes was making sure that we had all the stakeholders' concurrence.
	There's also another very important leadership lesson.
	And as director of CIA, when your officers are concerned about their physical security, you can't let it languish in your inbox for three years with no action.
	We should support that security.
	Why couldn't the agency have simply digitized that video and then blacked out the faces of any agents in those videos?
	Why? Why actually destroy the videotapes?
	Doesn't that feel like a cover-up, even if it isn't?
	Senator, I don't think we were worried about official release.
	This was at a time when the entire program was the subject of unauthorized leaks, and someone was found guilty of those unauthorized leaks.
	So the concern was an irresponsible leak of our officers' faces to the world, not an official release.
	No, I understand that. But if you would have blacked out the agents' faces, destroyed the videotapes, and then kept a digital record, that would have addressed those security concerns.
	Senator, I'm just not a technical person, so I don't...
	It's not that complicated.
	Well... And did you like wipe it with a cloth or something?
	Senator, I don't know if that was considered or not.
	Never served. Were you an advocate for destroying the tapes?
	Senator, I absolutely was an advocate if we could within and conforming to U.S. law and if we could get policy concurrence to eliminate the security risk posed to our officers by those tapes.
	Again, it was the independent senator from Maine, Angus King, who said, look, if she wanted to make the case that they thought they were doing the right thing, that they thought that this was effective, that they thought that it was legal and so forth, if they wanted to make that case, she didn't make that case.
	But it goes regardless of whether she made that case or not.
	He said in 2005, when she destroyed that evidence, they'd already determined that none of those things were true.
	And that's the key thing. And that's what she's dancing around there.
	We have Rand Paul, who said that he is not going to vote for Haspel.
	You had Kamala Harris, or Kamala Harris, who said, it's a yes or no answer.
	Do you believe the previous interrogation techniques were immoral?
	And... She said, I'm not asking, do you believe if they were illegal?
	I'm asking if you believe they were immoral.
	And she said, Senator, I believe the CIA did extraordinary work.
	I mean, they even talk about this.
	You heard them say, well, you know, when you were doing the EIT, EIT, enhanced interrogation techniques or tactics or whatever.
	I mean, they come up with these euphemisms and then they reduce them to an acronym.
	We're talking about torture here.
	But she goes on to say, Senator, I did extraordinary work to prevent an attack on this country, given the legal tools that I was authorized to use.
	After a few follow-ups, eventually, Kamala Harris said, ultimately, well, you're not going to answer this, I'm just going to move on.
	We also had Mark Warner say, should the U.S. ever permit detainees to be treated the way the CIA treated these, even if you believe that it was technically legal?
	Well, you know, we've decided to hold ourselves to a stricter moral standard, she said.
	But evidently, this hasn't been a standard that's been widely adopted by people.
	You know, when I drive home, I flip around the radio stations to see what everybody is talking about.
	I typically listen to music so that I can relax after immersing myself in the news a bit.
	I caught Rush Limbaugh yesterday talking about this, mocking the idea of what had happened, saying there was some Democrat senator who was horrified that these people were being given insure instead of a chef salad.
	Let me tell you a little bit about what was happening with this.
	They were giving this individual Ensure, they said, because they had not gotten any useful information about a long, prolonged period of torture and waterboarding.
	Said he did vomit a couple of times during the waterboard with some beans and rice.
	They'd been 10 hours since he'd eaten, so this was surprising and disturbing.
	So we plan to only feed Insure for a while now.
	Maybe it's a little bit easier to clean that up.
	It isn't going light on these guys.
	Let me tell you, this is from The Atlantic.
	This is for Rush Limbaugh and his listeners there.
	From August the 4th, 2002, through August the 23rd, the CIA subjected Abu Zabaida, and we're going to talk to the man who captured him, to its enhanced interrogation techniques over a near 24-hour-per-day basis.
	He had been in complete isolation for 47 days.
	The most aggressive interrogation phase began at approximately 11.50 a.m.
	Security personnel entered the cell.
	They shackled and hooded him.
	They removed his towel.
	He was then left naked.
	Without asking any questions, interrogators placed a rolled towel around his neck as a collar.
	They backed him up into the cell wall.
	The interrogators then removed the hood, performed an attention grab, and then had him watch while a large confinement box was brought into the cell and laid on the floor.
	He was unhooded, and the large confinement box was carried into the interrogation room and placed on the floor so as to appear like a coffin.
	The interrogators then demanded detailed and verifiable information on terrorist operations planned against the United States, including names, phone numbers, email addresses, weapon caches, safe houses of anyone involved.
	CIA records describe Abu Zabaida as appearing apprehensive.
	Each time he denied having any additional information, the interrogators would perform a facial slap or face grab.
	Then, at approximately 6.20 p.m., he was waterboarded for the first time.
	Over a two and a half hour period, he coughed, he vomited, and had involuntary spasms of the torso and extremities during waterboarding.
	yeah it wasn't that he wasn't getting chef salad is this what you want our country to do it's been about 15 years since we saw the abuses of of boo garab the prison there the sadistic sexualization of these people who are running the prison folks we are sliding into a moral abyss I would say that the leadership has been there for quite some time is this what we want from America are we okay with this You think this works?
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Real News with David Knight.
	Welcome back. I'm David Knight.
	We're going to be talking to John Kiriakou, the man who exposed the torture program that Gina Haspel was running and then later covered up for other people, even part of the stuff that she was not involved in.
	She covered that up. John Kiriakou is just the opposite.
	He tried to expose and did expose the criminal actions that had happened there, and he was the only one who went to jail, not the people who did the torturing.
	We've been talking about the aspects as to whether or not this works.
	We've got 109 former generals and admirals who say it doesn't work.
	Ray McGovern said it doesn't work.
	We've had a lot of former military people, people that you would think might know.
	People who are intelligence committee who might know.
	Forget about what you saw on 24 with Kiefer Sutherland.
	These are the people who live in the real world, and they say that it doesn't work.
	But we live in a world, as we saw with the poll, we've got one-third of the people who disagree with this.
	One-third of the people who say, yeah, go ahead and torture, because I don't care.
	If we get something out of it, it's worth it.
	And then we've got another third of the people who don't give a damn.
	And so I want to talk to those two-thirds of Americans who say, yeah, it's okay if I get what I want out of it to do anything.
	I reported earlier in the program of those two nuns who are going to jail in Colombia because they tortured 65 kids, sticking their heads in toilets and burning their hands.
	We don't agree that that was right, even if it got the right response for those nuns, even if they were able to get these kids in line.
	It's not the right thing to do.
	And so I want to talk to John Kiriakou.
	You can find him, JohnKiriakou.com.
	You spell his last name, K-I-R-I-A-K-O-U, JohnKiriakou.com.
	You can also find him on Twitter, at John Kiriakou.
	He went to jail to expose the crimes of others, none of whom were punished.
	And he said he would do it again.
	I've interviewed him many times in the past.
	And so the question that he puts out there is he talks about the conservative case against torture.
	He worked at Liberty University, and he says, you know, who would Jesus torture?
	Who would Jesus torture, John?
	Nobody. That's...
	That just seemed so obvious to me, David, when I sat down to write this piece.
	And the piece had the support of so many of my colleagues at Liberty University, people who take this issue very seriously and they take their faith very seriously.
	You know, Liberty University is no bastion of liberalism.
	Their motto is to turn out conservatives for Christ.
	And so when I first got there, I said to them, you know, I think you and I are going to disagree on a lot of issues.
	Why would you hire me for this job?
	And they said, because torture is not Christian.
	And I mean, they didn't pause a second before they said that.
	Torture is not Christian.
	Absolutely isn't. And you know, the other thing that's not Christian is to have wars without having a debate first.
	It is a just war.
	Were we attacked? Are we the aggrieved party?
	Or are we being the aggressors?
	We don't even have that discussion anymore.
	That's the world that we live in after 9-11.
	We have thrown out all these ethical considerations.
	And John, at the top of the hour...
	I've talked about the Japanese monsters that were experimenting on people during World War II, some of whom we executed for doing waterboarding, but now we don't call it waterboarding.
	We call it enhanced interrogation tactics or techniques.
	We even heard the senators refer to it as EIT. Boy, how distant from the truth can you get?
	But that is our future.
	What was done by these Japanese war criminals?
	What was done by the German war criminals if we say that ethics and morality don't matter?
	I mean, you can't make a good case that it is effective, the people who are out there.
	But if we just say we don't even care about the ethics and morality, we're just going to debate whether or not it's effective.
	We've already lost. We've become the monsters that we fight.
	Oh, you're so right.
	I say this all the time in speeches that I give at universities around the country.
	The issue is not, does it work?
	Lots of different things work.
	It depends on what you want to do.
	Is your point to humiliate them?
	Is your point to make them talk?
	Well, we can rape them.
	We can rape their wives in front of them.
	We can brutalize their children.
	But those are all despicable, horrible things.
	And we don't do those things.
	So the issue isn't, does it work?
	Lots of things work.
	The issue is, is it moral?
	Is it ethical?
	And is it legal?
	And a torture program is none of those things.
	That's absolutely right.
	Let's talk about the hearing.
	I'm sure that you watched that hearing yesterday.
	You've already commented about it.
	Give us your comments about what you saw at the Gina Haspel hearings before the Senate committee.
	I thought Gina was nervous, especially at the beginning.
	And I think that many of the platitudes that she expected just simply didn't come.
	What senators wanted to know, and these were very easy yes and no questions, was does she regret what she did?
	And she would never say yes.
	The questions were very simple.
	It wasn't, would you do it again?
	Although they asked that, too. Would you do it again?
	And she said, I would respect the Army Field Manual.
	That wasn't the question.
	And besides, the Army Field Manual is not a law.
	It's a regulation. And so with the stroke of a president's pen, any president, the Army Field Manual can be changed and torture can be reinstituted.
	So she never answered those tough questions.
	And I think the American people deserve an answer.
	And, you know, if we have that type of situation, as you pointed out, it can be changed with a stroke of a pen.
	This takes us back to Nuremberg, where we said at the time, I'm just following orders, is not an excuse.
	There is a higher moral law, not only to what the president or somebody in the chain of command is doing, but we have the Constitution that is there.
	But above that, we have the moral law, which brings us back to where we started.
	We're talking about, you know, who would Jesus torture and so forth.
	If you have no anchor, if you have no rudder, no moral anchor or rudder, then you'll do anything, and we will become just like the people that we tried and executed at the Nuremberg trials.
	You know, we so strongly believe that we're the good guys.
	Yes. Past these issues that you're raising right now, David, because these are really the issues that are at the crux of this entire situation, this entire system.
	Yes, we're the good guys, but if we're the good guys, we really do have to be that shining beacon.
	That the rest of the world wants to think that we are, that we respect the rule of law, that we respect human rights and civil rights and civil liberties.
	You know, Elliott Abrams, who was a longtime White House and State Department official under both the Reagan administration And the Bush administration, and then actually he came back during the George W. Bush administration, said very early on in the 1980s that the Republican Party should never have conceded human rights to the left.
	Because it's Republican Party, it's the conservative movement in this country that believes in smaller government.
	It's government that we should be distrusting, not government that we should be putting our faith into because government inevitably, when it doesn't have the proper oversight, does the wrong thing.
	Alan Dershowitz come out and talk about this Russian conspiracy thing.
	He's been basically appearing on Fox News continuously saying that I don't agree with the criminalization of politics.
	And he got on MSNBC and he kind of said the same thing to them.
	He said, you know, it used to be the liberals...
	Who distrusted government.
	And he said, we have to understand that you don't become a good guy just because you're working for government.
	He quoted Madison. He said, you know, the people who work for government aren't angels.
	We need to have government because men aren't angels, but just because you work for the government doesn't make you an angel.
	And he says, where's your distress of these people?
	He said, we have judges and we have lawyers and other individuals.
	They're just human beings.
	And why isn't the left skeptical of this?
	We see in these hearings that the left is coming out with both guns against Gina Haspel because of politics.
	But the conservatives are taking a powder on this.
	We'll be right back with John Kiriakou.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Making Sense Common Again.
	It's your host, David Knight.
	The second person in that video right there who was wrestled to the ground by security and then escorted out is 79-year-old CIA veteran Ray McGovern.
	He served at the agency for 27 years but then became a political activist protesting the use of torture programs.
	And McGovern is a staunch critic of Gina Haspel.
	We contacted his lawyer who told us that Mr.
	McGovern did spend the night in jail.
	Alright, we're talking to John Kiriakou, who spent more than a night in jail.
	And of course, Ray McGovern, this isn't the first time he's been arrested.
	And he stands up to people, whether they are Republicans or Democrats, if they're doing the wrong thing.
	And so does John Kiriakou.
	He went to jail for a long time for blowing the whistle on the CIA torture program that Gina Haspel destroyed the evidence for.
	And, of course, the people who were there at the Senate committee hearing were not allowed to examine these records that they kept hidden, even the ones that Gina did not destroy long after everybody agreed that they weren't going to do this anymore.
	They said, well, we think that this is maybe not effective.
	Maybe it's not legal.
	Maybe it's not moral.
	So then they destroyed the records.
	You know, Ray McGovern, don't you, John?
	Your comments on what happened to him yesterday.
	I do know Ray very well.
	He's a dear friend and something of a mentor for me.
	I was sickened by the way he was brutalized by the Capitol Police yesterday.
	The man is 79 years old.
	There was no reason to beat him and brutalize him like they did.
	I just assumed he was going to be immediately processed and released, and so I called his home last night to see how he was doing.
	I was afraid that his shoulder had been dislocated.
	That's what he was shouting in the video, that they were dislocating his shoulder.
	And I spoke to his wife, Rita, and as it turned out, they're charging him with a felony of resisting arrest rather than a misdemeanor of interfering with a government proceeding.
	And so they kept him overnight.
	He's being arraigned in federal court this morning, and I hope he'll be released by the end of the day.
	But he's going to be looking at some serious prison time.
	Wow. Wow. So his shoulder was resisting their excessive use of force, right?
	I guess that's a felony if your shoulder resists them to the point of dislocation.
	And I'll tell you, the reason why he has shoulder problems is because a couple of years ago, he stood up during a speech by Hillary Clinton and turned his back at George Washington University.
	He never said a word.
	He just turned his back on Hillary Clinton and the police pounced on him and they brutalized him so severely that they broke his shoulder.
	And so now he has a lawsuit against the police there, but the poor guy has some serious health problems because of it.
	And of course, Ray is there, and he is galvanized with this, and it is a lesson for all the people who want to say, who don't care about the morality of this, who want to say that it's effective.
	Ray is somebody who briefed President Reagan.
	He was in the CIA from the days of John Kennedy.
	And he had 27 years there when he retired.
	He got one of their highest awards for commendation, a commendation medal and so forth.
	I think he knows, along with these 109 generals and admirals who are retired, I think these people know what they're talking about more so than Kiefer Sutherland and his silly television program and the people who don't know anything about this except that.
	You know, when we look at people like John McCain or Jesse Ventura, whether or not you agree with them politically, they get very angry when you tell them that this isn't torture.
	That it is something else called enhanced interrogation.
	They get very angry about this.
	And this is one of the reasons why I hate Hollywood as much as I do.
	Because this is a great disservice to the American people to perpetuate this lie that this horrible illegal program led, for example, to the capture or to the killing, I should say, of Osama bin Laden.
	It's just simply not true.
	This nonsense we saw on the television series 24 or the even greater nonsense that we saw in Zero Dark Thirty...
	It should be dispensed with immediately because none of it is true.
	Yeah, and you know, we're talking about people, people who are retired, people who are mentors.
	And this excellent piece that you had on the AmericanConservative.com, the conservative case against Gina Haspel.
	You say there's a progressive case against her, there's a libertarian case against her.
	You say there's a conservative case against her, but you also make the case that there is a Christian case against her.
	And you talk about the fact that you're at Liberty University, a guy there, Dr.
	Charles Murphy, as you point out, a patriot, a minister, a former CIA officer.
	And he had an intelligence analysis class.
	Tell us about the final exam and the four questions, because the first question goes right back to that 24 scenario.
	You got a ticking time bomb, and you got a guy here that seems to know, you think, knows the location of that time bomb.
	That's right. I still get chills when I think of the final exam that Chuck Murphy gave to his students at Liberty University.
	It's only four questions long.
	The first question is, you're a CIA officer.
	You've captured a major terrorist figure.
	You know that a bomb is going to go off somewhere in the United States soon.
	Do you torture him to get the information?
	Yes or no and why?
	The second question is, let's say you torture him but he was a true believer and he didn't give you the information.
	You have his wife in custody.
	Do you torture his wife to put pressure on him?
	Yes, no and why?
	The third question is, the wife is also a true believer but you have the children in custody.
	So do you brutalize the children in front of the parents so they'll talk and they'll tell you where the bomb is?
	Yes, no, and why?
	The fourth question is, you're standing before the awesome judgment seat of Christ and he asks you to explain your actions.
	What do you tell him? Yeah, that's it.
	If we lose that ethical, moral situation, if we lose our Christian beliefs, if we lose the culture that was based on those Christian beliefs, we have nothing.
	We have become these monsters.
	We have become terrorists.
	You know, when Gina Haspel said, John, one of the things she said was, I don't believe that terrorists follow any guidelines.
	I don't believe that terrorists follow any civilized norms or the law.
	And I look at that statement and I say, well then, by your admission, Gina, you are a terrorist.
	Exactly. Exactly.
	Gina Haspel's statement there is irrelevance.
	It doesn't matter what the terrorists are doing.
	We are supposed to be a nation of laws.
	We are supposed to be the country that's governed by the greatest constitution on the planet.
	So either we're going to be that country or we're not.
	We have to make a decision.
	Yes, yes. So, as you're looking at this yesterday, I mean, we've got Rand Paul, who says that he's going to filibuster this, and of course, he did that with, I think it was John Brennan, when he became CIA director, because he had been an apologist for the drone assassination program.
	But we've got one Democrat now who has switched sides.
	It's breaking down, however, pretty much along partisan lines, with the exception of Joe Manchin, who wants to be seen as a Republican for re-election purposes, and with Rand Paul, who will oppose this on principle.
	Other than that, it seems to be breaking along partisan lines.
	I mean, does it look like she's going to get through as far as to you as you watch this?
	I hate to say it, but yes, I think it's going to be very close, perhaps within a vote or two, but I think she's going to make it, unless there's a surprise.
	John McCain came out this morning and said that her actions were reprehensible, and he's urging his colleagues in the Republican conference to vote no.
	Most of them, perhaps all of them besides McCain and Rand Paul, are going to vote yes.
	Now, there's some talk that Jeff Blake may flip and vote no, and that may be enough to kill the nomination.
	There's also some talk, and it's just talk, and I heard it yesterday for the very first time, That Ted Cruz may vote no because his father was tortured by the Fidel Castro regime in Cuba.
	So maybe there's a chance there.
	I hope Rand Paul is serious when he says he's going to filibuster.
	He did filibuster John Brennan.
	That lasted only 13 hours because nobody else joined him.
	But if Democrats are serious about this, they can join Rand Paul and they can filibuster this thing to death.
	Well, you know, it's important for them, from a political standpoint, to take the moral high ground.
	And they have an opportunity to take the moral high ground because the Republican Party and President Trump have taken the low ground on this thing.
	To say, oh, she was great against terrorists and so forth.
	I mean, that is the lowest...
	Of the low ground that you can take on this.
	We're going to be coming up to break.
	I want you to stay with us, if you can, one more segment.
	And I want you to give us a little bit more personal recollection of Gina Haspel and why you personally disagree with what she had to do there in terms of what she was involved with and what she did after the fact.
	So we're going to come right back.
	If you can stay with us with John Kiriakou.
	Again, you can find him on Twitter at John Kiriakou.
	He has a website, johnkiriakou.com.
	That's spelled K-I-R-I-A-K-O-U.
	We'll be right back.
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	Frank in North Carolina, thanks for holding so long.
	Go ahead. Yeah, I just have to say something, man.
	It seems like every time I turn on your broadcast, you're bragging.
	It just gets old, man.
	I'm going to shut you down right now, okay?
	We're taking calls about your nomination.
	Do you understand they're having congressional hearings trying to shut us down?
	Do you understand I'm ringing the alarm?
	If that was happening to anybody else, I'd be freaked out.
	I mean, what's it gonna take?
	Us being shut down? Is that what you want, Frank?
	You know what, Alex?
	Put him on pause again.
	Hey, Frank! Do you understand it's not bragging to say, we are the tip of the spear, we're under attack, we need your help.
	As much begging as I do, we can barely pay the bills and grow in the face of this.
	I'm not gonna just stop growth and let them start pushing us backwards.
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	You're listening to Real News with David Knight.
	Welcome back.
	I'm David Knight, and we're talking to John Kiryaku.
	He blew the whistle on CIA torture.
	He's had a lot to say about Gina Haspel.
	Yesterday she testified before the Senate committee.
	They have recommended her for the full Senate to vote on.
	And the question still remains as to whether or not she will get through that, whether or not Rand Paul will be successful in trying to filibuster that.
	But, you know, John, as I said earlier in the program, on my way home yesterday, sometimes I'll flip through the radio channels just to see what people are talking about.
	And I caught the testimony of some of the testimony being replayed by Gina Haspel, and it was on Rush's program, Rush Limbaugh.
	And he started making light of this and playing quotes from a guy, Jose Rodriguez, that was with the CIA. And making light of this, saying, oh, they gave him insure, and the Democrats think that that is torture.
	I read earlier in the program some excerpts from what the Senate Intelligence Committee documented.
	They released a declassified summary of the report back in 2014.
	I remember the CIA was so upset about that that they came after Dianne Feinstein and her staff.
	And she's like, wait a minute, I'm the guy that watches over you guys and you're attacking me?
	But what was revealed in that As part of what I read was very disturbing.
	This is not lightweight stuff like Rush was trying to make of it.
	He's either profoundly ignorant or he is a shill for these criminals to say that kind of stuff.
	But when you look at what they said, after six days of this, they said, we realized that he had absolutely no information to give us.
	And if he could, he would have.
	And they continued the torture for another two weeks.
	Yes, they sure did.
	In fact, in James Mitchell's book, he was one of the two torturers.
	He said that they had to continue torturing him just because they needed to at least prove to headquarters that headquarters didn't waste the $100 million of the taxpayers' money that they paid these two psychologists to do this program.
	Oh my goodness. But the truth was that he just didn't have any information.
	And, of course, those psychiatrists just got off of a, you know, they had a court case.
	I think they were coming after them for civil action, wasn't it?
	And they got away with that as well.
	I mean, everybody that's involved in this, except you who blew the whistle on it, everybody that's involved with this gets away with the, they get the money, they get the massive payouts, they avoid any civil liability, they avoid any criminal liability.
	Everybody gets away with it. They do.
	They get away with it.
	Wow. Wow. Well, I just want to read one other thing here, too, and get your comments on this, because you're the guy who captured Abu Zabida, right?
	And got him there, and we talked about that before.
	I'll let you talk about that and talk about Jenna Haspel, but just this, August 8, 2002, and this is near the beginning.
	This is only six days after.
	This is what Rush Limbaugh is mocking.
	Saying, oh, well, he's going with the testimony of Rodriguez as he's downplaying this stuff.
	But these are the people who are actually there.
	This is what actually happened.
	This is what the Senate committee declassified that got them in trouble with the CIA. Yeah, and don't forget that these people who are out in the field are out in the field because they're patriots.
	Just because they didn't want to conduct torture on this guy doesn't mean that they're somehow lesser in any way.
	They were serving their country because they love this country and they're patriots.
	It tells you how horrible this torture program was that these people who are hardened career CIA officers and in many cases professional interrogators couldn't even handle it.
	Yeah, yeah. We had Gina Haspel last Friday say, I'm going to withdraw my nomination.
	It's going to be too tough for me to stand up to an examination of this.
	Then we had people who were at the White House staff, Sarah Huckabee Sanders and others, went to Langley.
	They talked to her reportedly for hours.
	And then they got President Trump on the phone because he was in Dallas at the NRA convention talking her into staying into this.
	I just don't understand the push to try to get this woman in charge tell us a little bit about your experiences with Gina Haspel Yeah, Gina Haspel was my boss in the Counterterrorism Center, my second-level supervisor.
	She was a very highly respected professional case officer, many overseas tours, all in operations.
	And she was also very popular.
	She was a good manager. She was a good leader.
	But all of that is irrelevant to this debate.
	That's right. And Gina was asked to go out to the secret site and to head the secret prison, she could have said no, but she didn't.
	She said yes. When she was asked to oversee, personally, to oversee the torture of Abrahim Aneshe, who was the alleged mastermind of the USS Cole bombing, again, she could have said no, but she didn't.
	She said yes. And then when she was asked by Jose Rodriguez to destroy the evidence, destroy the tapes of the torture sessions, Again, she could have said no, but she didn't.
	Now, she was specifically told by the White House counsel and by the CIA counsel and by David Addington, the vice president's chief of staff.
	This is Dick Cheney's chief of staff.
	They all told her, don't destroy the tapes.
	And she did it anyway.
	Even Dick Cheney. Even Dick Cheney's office said, don't destroy the tapes.
	Even Dick Cheney's office said, don't destroy the tapes.
	Darth Vader himself.
	Man, that's amazing. And one of the things that came out in this declassification from the Senate committee was two days after that quote that I just read saying we came to the collective realization that he really doesn't know anything.
	We've been doing this to him for six days.
	I mean, this guy, they said they could point and they could click their fingers and he would assume the position for being tortured.
	And after six days of this, they said, this guy really doesn't know anything.
	I don't know if we can go any further. Then, two days after they made that admission, they said, viewing the pressures on Abu Zabida on video, they said, has produced strong feelings of futility and legality of escalating and even maintaining this pressure.
	And then they said about viewing the tapes, prepare for something that is not possible.
	Have been seen previously.
	Now this is the kind of stuff that Rodriguez and Haspel were very interested in making sure that they destroyed that evidence.
	You know, there should be something, too, that I think is very, very important in this whole debate and conversation.
	A CIA psychiatrist once told me that the CIA actively seeks to hire people with sociopathic tendencies, not sociopaths, because sociopaths have no conscience and they're impossible to control.
	But every once in a while, a sociopath will fall through the cracks and get hired.
	And just like sociopaths in any Fortune 500 company, They rise to the very top of leadership because they're happy to break the law, to violate ethical standards or moral standards, and they're happy to walk on the backs of their colleagues to get promoted.
	Well, that's a description of Jose Rodriguez and Gina Haspel.
	I believe that they're sociopaths.
	Yes, yes. And that brings us to the guy who invented the prevarication, the euphemism, enhanced interrogation, John Rizzo.
	Who a couple of years ago wrote a book called Company Man because the CIA is referred to as the company.
	And he's proud of that.
	He said that he joined the CIA like a lot of other lawyers.
	He was an adult at the time of the church committee hearings.
	And he said he was one of the so-called church babies.
	Now, these are not people who go to worship Jesus.
	They were the offspring of the church committee hearings.
	He said he looked at those hearings that many people in America at the time were appalled at, the talk of assassination and everything.
	He said, hey, they need a good lawyer.
	You talk about sociopathic tendencies, and he's not even embarrassed about all this stuff.
	He was the guy who was their good lawyer who covered all this stuff up.
	Yeah, he really was.
	One of the things that has always amused me about John is that he tries to be everybody's friend.
	And in a situation like...
	A torture program or so-called enhanced interrogation techniques, which, as you pointed out, John invented.
	John invented that phrase.
	He wants to be on both sides of this.
	He wants to say, as he said in his book, that they were necessary and they were legal.
	And then he also wants to say, well, they were terrible and deep down I was against them.
	Well, listen, John, the battle lines have been drawn and you have to pick a side.
	And he's chosen the wrong side.
	That's right. And so has Gina Haspel.
	You know, the thing that came out in all these hearings, they would ask her these pointed questions.
	Most of them, she's very evasive.
	You know, do you think this is consistent with American values?
	I love American values.
	You know, no yes or no.
	But then she says, well, we didn't do anything unethical or illegal, but I'll never do it again.
	And it's like, well, if it's effective, if it's legal, if it's ethical, why wouldn't you do it again?
	I mean, you can't have it both ways.
	Last week and the week before, she went office to office to meet with every senator on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and somebody leaked out that in those meetings she was promising not to break the law.
	Well, if you have to promise not to break the law, because you have in the past, you're the wrong person for this job.
	Absolutely. Well, I'm kind of assuming that maybe she took an oath to the Constitution before any of this stuff happened.
	Thank you for joining us, John, and thank you for your contributions.
	We really need people who will stand for ethics and morality in America today, and John Kiriakou is one of those people.
	Thank you so much, John. You have my utmost respect and gratitude.
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