Jason Jorjani and Dan dissect the Collins Elite's suppression of UFO disclosures, arguing that lunar anomalies and Martian nuclear isotopes prove an artificial moon built by fleeing Nordic survivors to stabilize Earth. They theorize that accumulating digital data will eventually mimic the Moon's mass, triggering an "information catastrophe" identical to Atlantis' destruction, while Nazi scientists allegedly engineered a Fourth Reich using anti-gravity tech and psychotropic child abuse to control humanity within a simulated reality. Ultimately, this techno-apocalyptic narrative suggests history is being socially engineered by hidden elites rather than unfolding naturally. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Satana, Gorgons, and Cults00:06:08
All right, Jason Giorgiani, thank you for coming, man.
Good to see you, brother.
It's a pleasure to see you again, Dan.
Our last podcast was bananas.
We covered all kinds of crazy.
What have you been up to, bro?
Writing.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, one of the few silver linings to being banned from academia is it leaves you all your time to do writing.
That's right.
That's the convenience of being a Nazi Mossad agent.
Yes, yes, yes.
Go figure it out.
As you're famously accused of.
Yeah, being defamed in both of those ways simultaneously, right?
Never had any dealings with Nazis, as far as I'm aware.
Did meet with probably four different Mossad agents, but I never accepted their offer for shekels.
So I'm a free agent.
So, what kind of stuff have you been writing?
Well, my latest book is Satanion, which has a lot on the simulation theory in it.
That we'll get into.
And then the latest one, the cover is up there in the background.
It's called Metapolemos, which is a Greek word, ancient Greek word meaning super struggle or meta war, andor Überkampf in German, Metapolemos.
And that one is an overview of my entire philosophical project divided into the domains of ontology, epistemology, ethics, aesthetics, and politics.
So, it summarizes my whole philosophical project in terms of the different domains of philosophy.
And I wrote it to be a kind of companion volume to Philosophy of the Future, which I brought you last time.
Yes.
This one is an overview of my work in terms of the original concepts that I've developed, Philosophy of the Future was.
And this one, Metapolemos, is in terms of the different domains of philosophical thought.
So, they're kind of good companion volumes for one another.
And they're either a really good introduction to my work as a whole or a kind of executive summary.
What is the.
General idea of Satanion.
The general idea of Satanion.
Well, the term means the Aeon of Satan.
The Aeon of Satan.
Or the Aeon of Satana.
And so I'm playing with this term, Satana.
It's the name of a.
I guess you could call her a goddess.
Really, she's more a Titaness.
You know, there was this distinction between the gods and the Titans, which you see in Greek culture.
You see it in ancient Hindu culture as well, with the Devas and the Asuras.
Satana is a Titaness who was conceived of as the mother of the Gorgons, you know, Medusa.
So these snake haired feminine deities.
They were called.
They come from Medea, right?
Well, no, Medea was the chief priestess of them.
Right.
They were like her minions.
She was a witch who basically did the most to institutionalize and organize the cult of these Gorgons.
And the chief Gorgon, the kind of mother of the coven of Gorgons, is Satana.
This was a cult that existed in the Caucasus going back to probably at least a thousand BC.
And what's interesting about, first of all, the name originally, Satana, in an old Iranian language, it means mother of a hundred, because she was believed to be the initiatrix of heroes.
She would take these champions under the Caspian Sea.
Into what was believed to be an underwater city.
And she would train them and initiate them and confer a broadsword on them and also potentially allow them to look into this grail that she was the keeper of.
So much, much later, like 1500 years, 1800 years later, this mythos would eventually make its way into Europe together with the migration of the Scythian and Sarmatian people.
And it would become what's known as the Arthurian mythos in Europe, where this figure, Satana, becomes the lady of the lake and then, you know, Arthur.
King Arthur becomes the archetypal hero who is initiated by this grail mistress and who's given the broadsword and so forth.
So, the mythos of Satana is the most primordial form of what later becomes the Arthurian grail mysticism of Europe, of Gothic Europe and Celtic Europe.
And it's brought there by these Caucasian Iranian people, these northern Iranian people called the Scythians and Sarmatians.
The Greeks also called the Sarmatians Amazons.
Their whole Legends about the warrior women come from this culture because they had female warriors.
In fact, I mean, they were arguably a matriarchal culture with female rulers and female warriors.
Very unusual culture because they also, I think, were the first people to invent iron warfare implements and chainmail armor.
In any case, they worshipped this figure, Satana.
And round about, I think, 700, 800 BC, they mass invaded the Middle East.
And it said they went all the way up to Egypt.
So I've made an argument in some of my work that what we believe is the Hebrew term Satan, Ha Satan, the adversary, probably comes from this Satana in origin,
because the serpent symbolism associated with Satan from the book of Genesis onward, in various aesthetic representations, has a distinctly Female connotation like the serpent in Eden was depicted in female form often throughout the history of art.
And the serpents are, of course, associated with the gorgons.
They have serpents in their hair, right?
Which is really a reference to the fact that viper venom was used in this cult, right?
The Female Origin of Satan00:07:45
Yeah, so the title comes from that, okay?
It's a play on the cult of Satana, but the way I use this from the opening chapter onward is in terms of the contemporary debate over whether the UFO phenomenon is demonic.
So, you have these Collins elite people who think that either angels or more probably demons are what's behind the whole thing.
Collins elite?
The Collins elite.
Yeah, the Collins elite.
I think we got into this briefly the last time I was here.
But some people think that the Collins elite was an unofficial interagency organization with representation from the CIA, the Air Force, and various other military intelligence organizations that was formed.
They think, some people argue, like Nick Redfern, I think, in his book.
On what was that book called?
Is Tucker Carlson a part of the Collins elite?
You say that, you say that, you know, probably more than half jokingly.
No, I don't think Tucker's part of the Collins elite, but I think that they've gotten to his head.
I think that these are the people who put this in Tucker Carlson's head, and he's been talking to too many of these folks.
Yeah.
So, anyway, some people think they were formed in 1947 to basically, between 45 and 47, to spy on Jack Parsons.
And investigate what Jack Parsons, the occultist and rocket scientist, was doing, you know, with L. Ron Hubbard and others in the middle of the Western desert, right?
I have argued.
They had a spot in Florida.
They were working on some stuff, didn't they?
They were all over the place.
Yeah.
Matter of fact, I think it was in Florida that Hubbard, you know, the founder of Scientology, stole Parsons' yacht and his girlfriend.
What?
I think that was off the coast of Florida that he did that.
Yeah, they had a bad falling out.
I told you, right, that the flag building for Scientology, their primary headquarters where he parked his yacht, is like 20 minutes from here.
I think that makes sense.
Yeah.
I think he used this as his launching point.
Yeah.
For his various off the radar activities in the oceans of the world later in his life, right?
Yeah.
So, anyway, but let's not go into Hubbard land.
Yeah, let's not.
So, some people think it was formed in 47 to investigate Parsons and so forth.
But I actually argue in Satanion that the Collins elite probably goes back to the 1896, 1897 airship mystery.
Yeah.
Where there was this patent attorney.
Who claimed to represent the inventors of the mystery airships?
Right.
And this guy's name was Collins.
And look, I don't want to be one of these guys who says the same thing every time.
And I think we did discuss this last time.
Yeah.
Very long story short, in a nutshell, this patent attorney, George Collins, gave an extensive testimony to the San Francisco Chronicle in 1897 about what these airships were, how they were going to be publicly declared.
You know, the company was going to publicly declare itself on the stock exchange.
And come forth with this technology and all this.
And then, like three days later, the San Francisco Chronicle got back to him and wanted to have another conversation with him, at which point he said, I don't remember saying any of that stuff to you.
And it turned out that he gave this entire testimony in a trance state.
So, this George Collins was possessed and delivered the story.
And then it turned out that the supposed airship inventor was some dentist who invented dental bridges who had dreamed of building airships from his childhood.
So, This paranormal angle starts to emerge in the story where you wonder, you know, are these airships psychic projections of some kind?
Are people's perceptions being manipulated?
And I think from that time onward is when the feds got involved and started to develop theories about what kind of diabolical intelligence might actually be behind this phenomenon.
This reminds me, Steve, can you pull up my Twitter page real quick?
I want to show you this photo I found of Jacques Valet last night.
I think it's very appropriate.
Just go to X and just go to my account page.
There's a whole article about it too.
You know, I knew Jacques Valet at one point.
That's not it.
That's it right there.
That's what you were saying last time.
Scroll down.
Scroll down right there.
Oh, right.
Click that photo.
Look at that.
Jacques Valet with Aleister Crowley.
Oh, wow.
No, that's Anton Levay.
That's what I meant.
That's what I meant.
I'm sorry.
Aleister Crowley was lost.
That's what I meant.
Jacques Valet and Anton Levay.
Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all.
First of all, they both lived in San Francisco.
Right.
And yeah, it doesn't.
Apparently, they would have dinner parties and play Donkey Kong together.
Donkey Kong.
Yeah, that's what the article says.
Well, that's fascinating because Jacques Valet always talks about how he seems to be hyper interested in the whole angels and demons stuff.
Yeah.
Well, the opening line of Satanion, the first chapter is called Diabolical Disclosure.
And the opening line is How does one disclose the devil?
That is without ending the world.
Yeah.
And it comes back to this idea that the Collins elite see themselves as holding back the apocalypse because they think that if these phenomena are predominantly demonic, disclosing that would mean disclosing the Antichrist, which would then precipitate the second coming or accelerate the second coming.
So they think they're somehow doing the world a favor by maintaining the secrecy regarding the phenomenon because it's essentially buying us time and holding back the end of the world.
So I play with that idea at the opening of my first chapter in Satanion.
So, these people are religious types.
Fanatically.
Religious fanatics.
Yeah, from the Air Force.
You'd have to be able to maintain this worldview or this view of the phenomena.
Yeah.
And, you know, I think that probably in, you know, going back to maybe 47 or the 1950s, they've been recruited from among evangelicals or traditionalist Catholics.
But if you go back probably to the 1890, late 1890s with the airship mystery, I don't know whether they started out that way or whether they were spooked into having these kinds of beliefs.
Right, look, think about it this way, Danny.
If airships that look like constructions from out of Jules Verne sci fi novels are showing up not just in the sky over tens of states, yeah, but they're landing in people's fields, and sheriffs and judges are coming up to these things and touching them and interacting with the airship pilots, yeah.
If it turns out that those things aren't real, meaning they're not constructed objects, they're some kind of a projection, whether it's a Psychokinetic projection, like what they call materialization in psychical research, or whether it's some kind of a solid hologram.
In any case, as a gentleman in the 1890s, or frankly, even this would be how most people today would read it in America, you would probably consider that a diabolical deception, a machination of the devil, right?
To engage in the manipulation of perception on that kind of scale, people tend to associate that with, I don't know, satanic deception.
Oh my God.
Seems silly.
Yeah.
Well, the prisms through which many people and institutions look at this phenomena are silly or simple minded.
Right.
And dangerously so.
HIMS Hair Loss Treatment00:03:13
All right.
We were going to talk about the moon.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's go to the moon.
What's so interesting?
First of all, what made you start to pay attention to the moon?
You know, I think this is a good place to start.
It was the start of my interest in it in a serious way.
And it's actually a good place, a good trajectory by which to go to the moon.
And that's that I paid close attention to Stephen Greer's disclosure project back when he was first starting it up in the late 1990s, a long time ago.
I think it was like 93 or something.
It was, yeah.
I might have become aware of it in the mid to late 90s.
Okay.
So, we're talking when I was like 17, 16, 17 years old.
From early on, I paid attention to the testimony that he amassed from all of these people who have been involved with the military, with defense contractors.
Do you believe all the stuff that he says?
Short answer, no.
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But look, I think in the case of Stephen Greer, and maybe we can come back around to this because I saw parts of your show with him.
In the case of Stephen Greer, you have to draw some very significant distinctions between the testimony he's getting from people who served in sensitive positions in the military industrial complex versus his interpretations of those testimonies, which is being filtered through his own worldview and ideology.
And then, furthermore, his own personal experiences.
Because Greer came out like, what was it, 20 years ago, saying he himself was a contactee, I think from childhood.
Wolf's Moon Facility Accident00:11:01
And he started doing these CE5, like protocols for summoning entities and so forth, right?
Yeah.
So there's a great deal of difference between those kinds of claims versus amassing testimony from basically expert witnesses.
Yeah.
Right.
And I find the stuff he did early on to be much more convincing.
And much more solid.
The origin story of being an ER doctor to all of a sudden getting a call to go to dinner with the head of the CIA seems a little suspect to me.
I don't know.
But I'll tell you what I found very interesting about some of that early testimony.
There was this one case.
And here we're going to get into a case of murder also.
Let's do it.
There was this one case of this.
I think he was Sergeant.
Yeah, Sergeant Carl Wolf.
Who, although he wasn't fairly high ranking, I mean, you know, this is how compartmentalized information works in the military.
You can be a relatively low ranking person, but if you have technical expertise in a particular area, you have to be given a high level security clearance because you need to work on some technical aspect of a very sensitive subject.
So, in the case of Carl Wolf, he was a photographic technician and repairman.
And I think it was 1965.
So, a few years before we went to the moon, right?
We've got the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter going around the moon preparing for the Apollo mission.
And Carl Wolf is called in, in his capacity as a photo technician, photographic repairman, he's called in to what they told him was an NSA facility.
And I think he was stationed on Langley Air Force Base at the time.
And they say, you know, we need you to come over to this NSA facility and work on this photographic processing machine.
In 1965, nobody knew what the fuck the NSA was.
It was so secret that people didn't even know it existed.
So Wolf assumed that it was a NASA facility.
He heard NSA as NASA.
Okay.
And it also makes sense in terms of what he saw when he got there, which is that when he walked into this place, first of all, he saw scientists from all around the world.
And he could tell because they were of various ethnicities.
He saw Japanese people, Indian people, people from multiple countries speaking multiple languages, European languages.
Sure, there's a few Germans in there.
Probably more than a few.
He's taken into the photo lab, right?
And there's another guy in there who's the same rank as him, I think also a sergeant.
And before he gets to work on repairing this machine, this sergeant, and the two of them are in there alone, right?
This sergeant can't help himself and he breaks protocol and he shows Carl Wolf the photographs that have been coming off this machine he was brought in to repair.
And they're mosaic photographs where, you know, the orbiter will take a bunch of.
Images, a bunch of shots, and then they'll lay them next to each other and form a mosaic of a larger site that's been targeted for satellite photography.
And the sergeant says, We found a city.
And he starts showing him these mosaics, putting them next to each other.
And they're high resolution photographs of a megalithic city on the dark side of the moon spherical buildings, polygonal buildings, obelisks like the needles in Egypt.
And dishes, he said, that looked like radio telescope dishes.
Huge structures, which I guess the resolution of the photographs was so good that he could tell that they weren't made of metal.
They were made of something like a poured stone, kind of like concrete, which is interesting because a lot of ancient sites on Earth are made from that type of material.
These enigmatic megalithic structures on Earth seem to have a similar construction as what Carl Wolf.
At least what was presented to him as a city on the dark side of the moon.
And so he's looking at this thing, and he.
Then basically, somebody walked in, and so the sergeant cuts off his, you know, cuts off this, you know, illegally volunteering this classified information to Wolf, and he goes to work repairing the photography machine.
But anyway, he said he went home, and he expected that.
Either that night or like sometime in the next week or sometime in the next year, we would hear about this city that had been photographed on the dark side of the moon.
And of course, it was never revealed, right?
So, this was one of the most striking early testimonies that I heard from out of Greer's Disclosure Project that got me really interested in the moon.
And what's really creepy is that.
And that was 60, 60, what?
65.
65.
A few years before Apollo.
And what's really disturbing is that.
This disclosure wave that we're in the midst of right now began in 2017, right, with that New York Times piece.
Right.
So, around about 2018, there are serious discussions about subpoenaing people to get testimony from them.
And then later than that, Grush now spearheaded this initiative to have people come and testify in front of Congress and release individuals from their security oaths, right?
Well, guess when poor Carl Wolf met with an untimely end?
2018, one year after disclosure starts, his bike was run over by a truck.
How old was he?
Young, I mean, relatively young.
Can you find the story of Carl Wolf?
He might have been in his 50s or something.
Wow.
And, I mean, this is what happened to John Mack, too.
This is how they murdered John Mack.
They had him run over on the road.
Yeah, but isn't it?
Yeah, I understand that that's sketchy about John Mack, but do you think it's probable that he was whacked?
It wasn't just an accident?
No, 100%.
Really?
Yeah, I do think so.
I do think so.
He was 74 years old.
He was 74 year old.
Well, he was in good enough shape that he was riding his bike regularly.
Can you click on it?
Oop.
Page note.
Just search Carl Wolf with a K.
Oh, it's not this one?
No.
Well, it has a correct underneath there.
Yeah.
Oh, I see.
Carl Wolf with a K. Claimed to have top secret NASA photos showing alien structures on the moon.
He worked with a tactical air command at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia and had top secret clearance.
In 2001, Wolf made a startling claim that NASA was hiding evidence of artificial structures on the far side of the moon.
He died in a bike accident on October 10th. 2018 in New York after being hit by a tractor trailer.
So I think it's awfully convenient that just when people are going to be subpoenaed to testify under oath and released from their security clearances, this guy has an accident.
Okay.
So let's go further down this path to the moon.
Quick little question.
I don't want to derail this.
Yeah, go ahead.
But have you heard of a guy named Hal Pavanmayer?
Okay.
Continue.
Okay.
So they have these photographs, right?
Those photographs went somewhere.
I mean, there was a whole room full of international scientists that Carl Wolf ran into as on his way to repair that machine.
So these photographs went somewhere.
Well, guess what?
These photographs show up again later in the history of military intelligence.
In the 1970s, when Ingo Swan started to work for the Stanford Research Institute on contract for the CIA, Some guy who identified himself as Lambert Dolphin, which is probably a pseudonym or codename.
This Lambert Dolphin basically pulled Ingo Swan from out of the unit that he was working with, this unit that was basically a CIA unit, right?
So this Lambert Dolphin, whoever he was, and Swan was never able to figure out what outfit in the US government this guy was really working for, he had the authority to take a CIA asset out of the CIA remote viewing program and put him on another task.
And Swan was blindfolded.
He was flown in a helicopter to a classified facility.
It was one of these deep underground facilities.
And he recounts having gone down in an elevator, like Lord knows how deep.
This is in Swan's book, Penetration.
So Swan says he goes down there and they want his talent as a remote viewer and they start targeting him on these photographs that are inside envelopes.
And he basically starts describing the moon.
But he's standing in the middle of a nexus of roads inside a city on the moon.
And he describes these gargantuan buildings, huge, titanic scale of construction.
He sees the same obelisks that Carl Wolf describes, you know, like the needles in ancient Egypt.
And he said, by the way, I got the impression that those were purely ceremonial, they didn't have any particular function.
But he saw other buildings that looked like reactor domes, like as if they were.
You know, nuclear power plants or something like that, and receiving dishes and antennas and so forth.
So he describes this Titanic city.
And, you know, it stands to reason that whatever was in those envelopes were probably the photographs that were taken by the orbiter back in 65 before Apollo, the photographs that Carl Wolff had reported seeing while he was repairing that machine.
So now you have a second point of confirmation.
Now here's the really creepy thing, Danny.
What else Ingo Swan saw on the dark side of the moon were masses of people huddled together in ramshackle shelters.
People who were naked and who were being used as slave labor.
This is what he said.
He said that.
And now, the fact that they were naked and apparently breathing while working inside craters on the moon, who knows, maybe mining helium three or whatever, suggests that there was some kind of an artificial atmosphere, that maybe where they were working was underneath a transparent dome that wasn't, you know, visible to Swan.
Naked Slave Labor on the Moon00:03:05
Sure.
But in any case, that's not the important point.
The important point and the disturbing one is that he saw.
Slave labor on the moon, and the people who were directing it were these tall Nordic looking fellows, one of whom could see Swan.
And this has been reported by other remote viewers where sometimes when they're sent to a target, whether it's a contemporaneous target or whether it's some event in the past, they're witnessed by whoever's there, as if like they're a ghost, and those people are seeing a ghost.
Well, this Nordic on the dark side of the moon.
Saw Swan and he got the distinct impression like the guy was telling him telepathically, Why the fuck are you here?
You don't belong here.
Right.
Get out of here.
Interesting.
Okay.
Now that fits with something else that I was told.
I was told this by an officer in the CIA who had read my book, Closer Encounters.
And he had, he wanted to have a conversation with me because he told me that basically.
When was this?
This was in two years ago, two and a half years ago.
This is his college.
He was like, Yo, I work for the CIA.
Can we talk?
He knew someone I know.
Oh, okay.
And he got in touch through that person.
And he, anyway, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but long story short, he was like, How did you put all these jigsaw puzzle pieces together?
He was looking to see if there was a leak and whether it needed to be plugged.
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Pre-Positioned Seismographs00:05:40
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Because he said that there were too many things in my book that were the same conclusions that they had reached based on having access to classified information.
And he was wondering how the hell I put these same pieces together in the same way.
But this moon stuff?
All kinds of things.
The subjects that I discuss in this book, Closer Encounters.
But the moon came up, among other things.
And he said, listen, after Swan was sent, we kept sending people to the moon, remote viewers.
And we distinctly got the message from these guys on the moon do not keep sending people here.
This is off limits.
And we didn't listen to them.
And the last viewer that we sent up there, his soul is trapped on the moon.
His body is in a coma in a special medical facility run by the CIA.
And his family has been given like medical compensation or whatever.
They told him, like, they told his family that the guy had died in the line of duty or whatever.
And he's been held in stasis for years and years as they wait for his soul to come back from the moon, where apparently there's the capacity.
To lure and trap somebody's consciousness, which they finally did to one of these CIA remote viewers after repeatedly telling them not to surveil whatever's going on up there.
That's strange.
We had a guy on here named David Morehouse.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was a remote viewer.
He was a part of these programs for a long time.
I think it was in the 70s.
I read his book, Psychic Warrior.
Psychic Warrior.
Early on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And he said that he remote viewed the moon and there was nothing.
He's like, it's all bullshit.
There's nobody there.
I don't know whether he was being blocked or what, but I can tell you some other things about the moon that are much creepier than a city on the dark side of it.
Well, and here's another thing if there was a city, why is it only on the dark side?
Well, because that side faces away from us all the time.
So, because whoever built it doesn't want us to see it?
Of course.
Of course.
That's the convenient place to put it.
There's also another reason that's technical, which is that if you put, you know, we've been studying this in terms of potential lunar colonization, that if you put listening.
Telescopes, you know, like the Arecibo dish.
Yeah, yeah.
Stuff that's meant to convey signals across space.
If you put it on the side of the moon that faces the Earth, there's too much interference with radio signals coming from the Earth.
So if you want to have basically interspace communication from the moon to elsewhere, it's better to put something on the side that always faces away from us so that you're not bombarded with radio signals that are being transmitted from the Earth.
Right.
That's a technical reason why you would do it.
But mainly, I think it's, you know, For concealment purposes.
Okay, but the story of what's going on on the moon is a lot more startling than finding a city on the dark side of it, right?
Because you could be dealing with a natural satellite that has been colonized at who knows what time by whatever spacefaring civilization.
No, it looks like there's a much more disturbing scenario here.
And Our government became aware of this during Apollo 12 and 13.
During Apollo 12, I think it was the lander that impacted the moon in a way that set off a seismometer that had been pre-positioned there.
There was a seismograph that was pre-positioned on the moon.
And when the Apollo 12 lander hit the surface of the moon, the signal that came from the seismograph was consistent with the ringing or vibration of a hollow object.
Right.
So the way that the shock wave passed through the moon.
Suggested that there was very little inside the moon.
Right.
Okay.
It rang like a bell as they described it.
For a while, right?
In the first case, it was for almost an hour.
So then they got curious about this.
And in Apollo 13, they deliberately crashed the third stage of Apollo 13 into the surface of the moon to carry out a test to see whether this was a repeatable phenomenon, right?
And this time, the seismograph not only confirmed. the resonance passing through a hollow object, but the moon rang like a bell for three hours.
So, and they were able to tell like how much more or less of the moon, you know, is apparently hollow.
Right.
And it's really shocking.
It's like the moon goes down for about 20 miles as a solid structure.
And then on the inside, there's a distance of about a thousand miles radially.
A thousand miles from the interior of the shell to the core, radially in every direction.
In other words, the distance between Los Angeles and Seattle, or New York and St. Louis, or Paris and Prague, out from the center, is hollow inside the moon.
Hollow Caverns Inside the Moon00:05:34
There was a recent NASA article that came out.
I think it was on the NASA website where they said they discovered caves, like underground caverns in the moon, which would suggest that it was like maybe like a honeycomb structure on the inside or something like that.
I suspect that it's not natural caverns, but that what they're seeing are the hollows between all kinds of complex machinery that are inside that structure.
One of the other things that they noted with these impact tests was that the moon sort of seemed to compensate and correct for the impact in a way that suggested there were oscillators inside the structure.
Right.
So I think probably there's machinery inside this thing.
Now, another data point that corroborates that.
Going back to the remote viewers, is that Joe McMonagall was tasked with remote viewing Mars in 1984.
And this was a CIA operation run at the Monroe Institute.
So it was CIA.
He was working on contract for the CIA.
And this was done at the Monroe Institute.
He was the first remote viewer, right?
I think he might have been.
Well, no, I think Ingo Swan was the first remote viewer.
But I think he had the designation 001 or something like that.
Yeah, maybe it was two.
I don't know.
Yeah.
But in any case, in 1984, Monroe Institute, and this has since been released.
This is one of these classified documents that has since been declassified.
It's called like Mars 1 million BC.
You can look it up, Joe McMonagall.
Mars 1 million BC.
Yeah, Joe McMonagall.
And so, look, Joe McMonagall is tasked to look at.
He doesn't know, of course.
He's working blind to the target.
That's how remote viewing is, right?
But what's inside these envelopes are the photographs that the Viking probe took on Mars in 1976, where we got back these images of the pyramids and the fort and the face, infamously.
So there are all these apparent man-made megalithic structures in the Cydonia region of Mars, which were first photographed by the Viking mission in 1976.
And that's what was inside these envelopes.
When McMonagall was doing this remote viewing session.
And he described being in the midst of the ruins of a megalithic city with gigantic pyramids.
He said they seemed like they were maybe three times the size of the Great Pyramid in Giza.
Wow.
And he described part of the Stargate project.
Yeah, he described a maze of structures under these pyramids, like subterranean tunnels and hallways.
Mm hmm.
At one point, he walks through one of these hallways and it leads to an opening, and he finds himself on the outside of the pyramid looking up at it, looking up across the face of the pyramid.
And he describes also these highways that are trenches.
They're these perfectly geometric trenches cut across miles and miles of Mars' surface.
And he said his impression was that they were used for a craft.
Like, you know, there are bad storms on Mars.
Right, so if you had hovercraft, hover cars, or whatever, you would want them to be transiting through something that had high walls on either side.
That was a you know, sunken channel to avoid a sandstorm passing over the top of your head, yeah, like some Star Wars.
So, this is basically he describes this okay during his remote viewing session, yeah.
But he says, Look, the civilization is long dead, I'm seeing you know, the ruins of a civilization that once was eons before this.
And he was tasked at 1 million BC.
So they said to him, okay, so go back to when these people were still alive and thriving.
And he goes way, way back.
Now, we can infer from another data point that I'll come to, you know, how far back he went.
But he doesn't say in the session, but he goes back to when these people were around.
And then he describes Nordic looking, super tall people in skin tight jumpsuits.
People.
People.
Who looked like Scandinavians, except he said they had more like a, I don't know, like between an Olympic swimmer and a football player's physique with very broad shoulders, not an ounce of body fat.
He said he could see all their musculature through their skin tight suits.
And what McMonagall relates is that these people were facing the end of their civilization.
And some of them had this, what he describes as a very philosophical sense of resignation, where they were like, well, we had our time.
It's not fair for us to ask for more time.
We've had more time than we should have had, some of them.
And some of them are still trying to survive and endure.
And the ones who are trying to survive, he says, they've looked for a way out.
And no matter what they do, they can't seem to find a way out.
Stabilizing Earth's Orbit00:15:16
So just pin that somewhere, right?
Then he says, they designed and got into a spacecraft that was cylindrical.
And which is very much the description of a lot of these cylinder shaped, cigar shaped UFOs, metallic cigar shaped craft.
And they went to another planet, which they were scouting out to see whether it was a viable world for them to relocate to.
And this other planet was, it was nothing like Mars.
It was very green, overgrown with vegetation, in fact.
But there were constant storms on it electrical storms, typhoons.
There was a lot of volcanic activity on this planet.
And they basically concluded that they couldn't settle there without altering the planet, without terraforming it in some way to make it more habitable.
So, this is a long conversation to have during a remote viewing session.
Yeah, yeah.
So, they got all this out of him, right?
I think those are all the important points.
Very detailed.
Yes.
So, now you put this next to what Dr. John Brandenburg discovered regarding Mars.
Dr. Brandenburg, who I got to spend a few days with in New Mexico a number of years ago, he worked on the Clementine mission for NASA.
And at one point, he was working at Sandia Labs, which is where I think a lot of the nuclear weapons are designed.
And he was looking at isotopic data from Mars.
So, you know, every planet has, you know, a certain amount of isotopes of different materials and metals and so forth on it.
Right.
And apparently, the isotopic ratio of xenon 129 is consistent across the entire solar system, except for on Mars.
And our thermonuclear test sites on Earth.
There's a deviation from the norm of the isotopic signature of xenon 129 at our thermonuclear test sites on Earth.
And we find the same thing at Cydonia on Mars.
Why is it different on nuclear test sites?
There's something happens when, and it has to be not an atomic bomb, but a thermonuclear bomb.
When a thermonuclear bomb is detonated, that leaves a trace of xenon 129 in that area, which Is not the normal, basically, distribution of that isotope that you would find on Earth or on any of the other rocky bodies in the solar system.
And according to Brandenburg, it's a very distinct signature.
It's unmistakable and it's very specifically associated with thermonuclear weapons detonation.
Then, after he discussed this with one of the scientists at Sandia Labs, whose expertise is working on nuclear weapons, he checked for other isotopes and he saw that the isotopes.
Of the isotopic ratio of thorium and uranium was also off at Cydonia in a way that matched thermonuclear test sites.
And so he came to the conclusion that, and even did the math, like how many nukes would you have had to detonate in this place to produce this kind of a deviation?
Turns out that an Empire State building's worth of our highest yield thermonuclear warheads would have had to have been detonated there.
To produce this kind of isotopic signature.
And this is exactly the same place where we find these blasted megalithic structures on the surface of Mars.
So there's a nuclear war on Mars.
So Brandenburg's thesis is that there was a nuclear war on Mars.
I cover this in my book, Closer Encounters.
And did that basically get rid of the atmosphere?
Is that responsible for how the atmosphere is almost non existent on Mars?
It would definitely have been a contributing factor.
I want to come around to what I think might have been another factor in that.
Okay.
But definitely would have been a contributing factor.
But we were on about the moon.
So why am I going on this detour to Mars?
Yeah.
Because it's when you put Brandenburg's research next to what Joe McMonagall saw.
And by the way, while we're on this subject, Ingo Swan was also tasked independently of Joe McMonagall to look at Mars twice.
Once was in 1976, I think, and the other was in 1984, same year that McMonagall did his.
But Swan's team and McMonagall were unaware of each other.
These were, I mean, obviously, this makes sense as protocol.
They wanted two sets of remote viewers on the same target to get, you know, corroboration.
And Swan did his with a whole team of people.
McMonagall worked alone at the Monroe Institute.
Swan had like five or six people working with him.
And in 1984, and also in the viewing in I think 76 or so, Ingo Swan and his team described exactly the same thing as Joe McMonagall.
They described a civilization on Mars, most of which was in ruins and was vastly ancient, but other parts of which.
Still survived under the surface.
He described a honeycomb of cities under the surface of Mars and some structures on the surface, which were like relaying information and being used as transportation beacons and had been built by this civilization that is still active under the surface of Mars, cities that are subterranean.
So, but okay, but this all came from out of discussing the moon.
When you put the remote viewing data next to Brandenburg's thesis, what it suggests.
Oh, and Brandenburg, his estimation was that this nuclear event in Cydonia took place maybe 100 million years ago.
Maybe 100 million years ago.
Jesus.
When were the dinosaurs killed off?
6 million?
65.
65 million years ago, right?
So it's a ballpark.
And when you put these two sets of data together, as I did in my book, Closer Encounters, the conclusion that emerges is that the moon was constructed by these people.
Survivors of some kind of apocalypse on Mars.
And it probably had at least two functions initially.
One was to transport a shit ton of people over here.
The moon?
And the other one was to act as a terraforming device.
So if we didn't have the moon where it is in this extremely stable orbit that it's in, right?
Yes.
We would have eight hour days.
The Earth would be spinning much faster than it is right now.
The Earth would also not be as stable as it is.
There have been calculations done that show that the Earth would be prone to toppling over at odd intervals.
Well, all planets have moons, right?
Yes, but only our moon stabilizes a planet to the extent, you know, only our moon stabilizes our planet in the way that it does.
And only our moon has as stable an orbit as it does.
And none of the other moons in the solar system.
Create the beautiful eclipses that we have here because the moon is, get this, 1 400th the size of the sun.
Yep.
And it's 1 400th the distance to the sun.
So the fact that it's 1 400th the size of the sun and 1 400th distance to the sun produces this perfect eclipse.
If you put the moon directly between us and the sun, it perfectly occludes the diameter of the sun.
Exactly.
Do we know if there's any other moon that produces that?
No, there's no other moon that produces that.
None.
But what's even more significant is.
That our moon has an extremely stable orbit.
No other moon in the solar system orbits its planet with as little deviation as our moon does.
Really?
Yes.
And so it appears there's something inside the moon stabilizing that orbit, which is also stabilizing the Earth.
And what did it give us?
It gave us a climate, an environment, a biosphere that rendered this planet habitable for humans.
Remember what McMonagall said.
He said they sent a scout ship to another planet.
It was overgrown with vegetation, it wasn't arid like Mars.
There were volcanoes going off, there were electrical storms.
And they were like, this place is too volatile.
We can't settle here the way that it is now.
So the moon was probably used in order to terraform the earth into a habitat that humans could, humans, Martians, Could settle in to become the human race.
So now there are other pieces of data.
We're talking about roughly how long ago?
100 million?
100 to 65 million years ago.
Now look, the dinosaurs would probably have had to have been killed off for this, right?
So one hypothesis that follows from this is that the impact that killed off the dinosaurs was deliberate, not some accidental asteroid impact.
It wouldn't have been very easy to coexist with them, right?
Right, okay.
But look, there are other data points that really nail this case.
For example, the craters on the moon on Earth, when you have impact craters from meteorites, for example, right?
The craters are roughly proportionally deep as they are wide, they dig into the earth.
On the moon, you have these utterly bizarre craters which are like over a hundred miles wide, like the Gregorian crater or the Clavius crater.
You could fit Switzerland and Luxembourg together inside some of these craters.
They're over 100 miles wide.
They're never more than four or five miles deep.
That doesn't make any sense.
The inside of these crater basins are all convex, like the surface of a contact lens.
Right.
So think about this.
Why would a meteor impact, meteorite impact, produce a crater that's so much wider than it is deep?
And then in the especially wide craters like Clavius, You see that the surface of that crater is convex.
It's because it's hitting a hard shell that's underneath the regolith, and the regolith is like astroturf that's been put on the surface of that space station to make it look like it's a moon.
They knew the Earth was there.
It was too volatile, too unstable.
I'm sure the equinox is not as stable as it is now.
There wasn't any.
We didn't have seasons.
That's a product of the moon.
The equinox is only because of the moon.
This 23 degree deviation that we have between our equator and the celestial equator, right, that produces the equinoxes and the solstices, is a function of the moon.
What other things about the moon, like, other than like we mentioned the distance from the sun to the moon and how it perfectly occludes the sun from our perspective, but like, what other things about our moon are exclusive to us?
So, first of all, there's the extremely bizarre ratio that you just mentioned.
Right, where this 1400th size of the sun, 1400th distance from the sun, yeah, and that's what produces these eclipses.
Then there's an incredible stability of the orbit of the moon.
Okay, then as we mentioned, these craters don't make any sense, right?
These craters don't make any sense, and the basin of them seems like it's revealing a shell of some kind, spherical shell.
Yep, then there's the impact tests, right?
The Apollo 12 and Apollo 13, where the moon on a seismograph registered like a hollow object, right?
And by the way, there's no moon that's a hollow object.
Back before Carl Sagan became such a skeptic, he even commented on this and said that it's terrifying because no natural satellite is hollow.
Back then, we know that no other moons are hollow?
Yes, we know it.
How do we know?
It's just not what moons are.
Moons are like, you know, they're like rocky bodies that are trapped by a planet and they're rocky all the way through.
And do we know, do we observe the craters on other moons to see how similar they are to our moon or how different they are than our moon?
Yeah.
We have detailed, like for example, Phobos and the moons of Mars, we have detailed images of them.
How many moons does Mars have?
It has two.
Two moons.
Saturn and Jupiter have a bunch.
Right.
And you know, the other thing about these moons are they're all weird shaped.
They look like deformed potatoes, you know, a lot of them.
They're not beautiful spherical objects like ours is.
But there is another interesting thing, and that's the mascons.
So there are these, you know, the moon has a lower gravity than Earth generally, right?
Remember the golf ball thing?
Yep.
So, and the Apollo astronauts.
Oh, yeah.
We'll get to them too, the Apollo astronauts.
Hopping around, you know, in the lower.
But there are places on the moon where there's a much stronger gravity.
There's Earth-like gravity or stronger than Earth-like gravity.
And it's actually a problem for navigation because when they pass satellites over, they can't fly too low because the craft will be pulled by these gravity wells.
There are places on the moon, they call them mass cons, mass concentrations, where the gravity deviates from the standard on the moon.
And guess what?
They're all perfectly circular.
So, one thing I hypothesized in closer encounters was that if this thing is a space station, it's possible that they built saucers into the surface of it.
Look at that.
Mask ons, short for mass concentrations, the regions of the moon's surface with a higher gravitational pull than the surrounding areas.
These anomalies were first identified in the 1960s.
Holy shit.
Yeah, they have to compensate for those when they fly anything around the moon.
Anyway, look, here's the thing.
We got to make sure we just, we got to, we got to, we got to keep you on point here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, uh, We can't be just letting George Johnny fly by the seat of his pants.
The possibility is that when they built the space station, they built saucers into the surface of it.
Remember, all the mascons are circular.
A saucer is going to have a zero point energy drive generating a flying saucer?
Yeah, a flying saucer is going to have a local gravitational field.
Yeah.
And if there's people in the saucer, it's 1G, which is greater gravity than.
Uh, the rest of the moon.
So, one possibility is that what these mascons are are saucers embedded in the space station underneath the regolith as a potential evacuation protocol.
Suppose there's a danger, like if some giant asteroid is coming that might hit the earth or it might hit the moon and they need to evacuate the station, right?
Well, these saucers could just peel off the surface.
So, that's one possibility of what these mascons are.
It are you know saucers with zero point energy drives running embedded into the surface of the object.
Saucers as Evacuation Protocols00:02:11
What do you make?
Of the post game press conference after the moon landing, where all the astronauts are sitting there.
They look like they're on a hostage tape.
This is where I want it to go next.
We mentioned the astronaut, right?
So, you know, these guys don't even remember what they did up there.
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Soviet and Chinese Lunar Plans00:14:18
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When you ask them, they've done interviews with these astronauts.
And when you ask them, you know, so what did you do on such and such a day?
They basically rehearse a mission log.
We did this and then we went, no, no, no.
I mean, how did you feel like when you were standing on the edge of that?
And then they freeze up.
They start to look ill.
And so, like you're saying in that press conference, right?
They don't look like national heroes coming back from having been the first men on the moon.
They look like hostages.
They look like they've had the shit scared out of them or, you know, yeah.
So I think that these people saw some terrifying things up there.
And that's also what Soviet intelligence thought.
In Timothy Good's book, Above Top Secret, British UFO Researcher.
Was close to Admiral Norton, Admiral Lord Hill Norton, British Navy, was one of the people who endorsed Timothy Good's work.
And in his book, Above Top Secret, Timothy Good recounts a meeting between British intelligence and Soviet intelligence back during the Cold War.
And the Soviets said, We were listening to the medical channel during Apollo.
They had a channel that they would use to report back, like medical emergencies, things they didn't want the public to hear.
A separate channel from the one that was being broadcast across television.
And, you know, unsurprisingly, the KGB had found access to this.
They, okay.
They weren't supposed to have access to this.
Even our ham radio operators were listening to this in America.
Some ham radio operators said that they were able to pick up on this too.
So the Soviets said, We heard Armstrong and Apollo 11 say, These babies are huge.
They're huge.
They're warning us off.
They're on the edge of the crater.
And there's this whole conversation on the medical channel about how the Apollo 11 astronauts were effectively assaulted and scared off by huge spacecraft on the moon, which were not there to greet them.
And they got the sense that they were there to say, get the hell out of here.
So, you know, people have all these.
Who was the person that said this?
And this was a.
It was a.
Somebody.
It was a conversation between British intelligence, a British intelligence officer.
You can find it in Timothy Good's book, Above Top Secret.
Above Top Secret.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it was a British intelligence operative who, during, I think, toward the end of the Cold War, was meeting with a Soviet counterpart.
Okay.
And the Soviets said, we have the record of this conversation between Armstrong and ground control on the medical channel.
Where they were saying they saw the.
Now, that would scare the shit out of you.
Yeah.
Moreover, by 1969, 70, they had already done this MKUltra stuff.
Yes.
Right?
So you think they wiped their memory somehow?
Yes.
Exactly.
Exactly.
We had already done this MKUltra stuff.
And I think these poor guys were MKUltra'd when they came back to try to get them to forget as much of what happened on the moon as possible.
And that would also explain why they all wound up with dysfunctional lives.
These guys all became alcoholics, their wives divorced them all.
Their personal lives became a disaster.
So, yeah, that's another piece of corroboration that, you know, the moon is inhabited and it's also probably an artificial satellite.
And why haven't we been back since?
Exactly.
Exactly.
There was a, we've watched this interview multiple times on previous podcasts where there is, I think it's the head of NASA is being talked, he's being interviewed in front of the Senate.
And they're talking about China.
How they had a plan to map or explore the dark side of the moon or whatever.
And they asked him, like, if we plan on doing it too.
And he goes, no, we're not interested in doing that.
We have no interest in the dark side.
You know what I find profoundly disturbing about that?
Is that humiliation is the worst thing in Chinese culture.
The worst thing.
Okay.
So the Chinese are not about to go up to the moon and have their asses handed to them.
Moreover, the Chinese are going to the moon in collaboration and cooperation with the Russians.
The Chinese and the Russians plan to build a space station that orbits the moon and then send astronauts from the space station down to the surface of the moon.
Right?
If there's that degree of cooperation between Russia and China on the moon, it means the Soviet dossier has been handed over to the Chinese.
The Soviet dossier?
Yeah, the Soviet dossier on the moon.
Oh.
Okay.
Okay.
What's in that?
Right.
Everything the Americans encountered on the moon, which is why the Soviets never went to the moon.
Remember, we were competing with the Soviet Union to go to the moon.
Why is it that we went up there and then all the Soviets just decided to cancel their moon program?
No.
They knew.
Of course they knew.
They knew.
And also, there were discussions in the Soviet Union at that time that, okay, if America makes it to the moon first, we'll go to Mars first.
They figured it out.
Neither are for the taking, neither the moon nor Mars.
So, what's really disturbing about the Chinese initiative is that if the Chinese, of all people, Are planning to go up there and, I don't know, if not colonize, at least do some scientific research or whatever, right?
It means they've gotten clearance.
From the people that are there?
That's right.
That's right.
Now, and notice how the balance of power is shifting in the world toward China.
Is it really?
It is.
You all have different opinions online.
I don't know who to believe.
Look, I mean, it has been.
Now, whether that can be reversed is another question.
But if you wanted to manage a global totalitarian state.
Yes.
With ubiquitous surveillance and an extremely technocratic form of government with little personal freedom, right?
A control society on a global scale.
The Chinese would be the optimal people to put in charge for that.
Yeah.
Because it fits the values of Confucianism.
Yes.
Okay.
So if someone.
On the moon, potentially also on Mars, wants to impose a totalitarian world government on Earth, they're not going to make a deal with the United States.
They're going to make a deal with China.
That's what I find most disturbing about Chinese plans to go to the moon.
I actually don't think we would even be going back there if it weren't for the fact that Chinese already are.
Yeah.
But, okay.
Maybe.
But who would they make the deal with in the United States?
That's the thing.
There's, there's, Two parts of the United States.
There's the idealistic view of the United States, and then there's the real people who are running the show behind the scenes in the United States.
And they probably are very envious of China's totalitarian surveillance state that they live under.
So, you know, I'm not sure.
It's very easy to make these kinds of moral judgments.
If I were in Lockheed at a high level with security clearance to the special programs that are dealing with zero point energy and electrogravitic drives.
Yeah.
I'm not so sure that, considering the kind of society we have in this country, let alone in the world at large, I would publicly disclose that technology.
I mean, we talked about this last time, I think.
The weaponization implications and dual use potential of such technology is extremely socially destabilizing.
So the thing is, with China, you can manage technology and control information in that way.
Yes, totally.
Based on the ideals of the Bill of Rights and the United States Constitution, you can't.
It makes it way harder.
Right.
So they have a good negotiating partner in China.
Oh, yes.
That makes a ton of sense.
So even if you're in Lockheed, you're stuck behind all these walls of classification and these security oaths that you've taken, you might still believe in the ideals of the Bill of Rights.
And you might not be ready to sell out, at least the American citizenry, to a foreign power or an alien power that intends to subjugate the planet and, you know, Subject us to a global tyranny.
So, yeah, I'm not convinced that even people in the deepest strata of the deep state are so, how can I put it, callous and nihilistic and self serving that they would make a deal with people who want tyranny over the planet.
In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if for a long time they've kept these technologies close to the chest in order to develop some kind of a Deterrence capability or to approach parity, technological and military parity.
With what?
With them?
Yeah, with the people on the moon.
What do you think it would be like to be a person who is at the highest of levels in one of these secret, super compartmentalized private aerospace companies that has, and you are aware of the deepest, darkest secrets of reverse engineered spaceships?
Alien contact, where they are, everything.
Like to be that person, going to work, coming home, having dinner with your wife, tucking your kids in, like what would that do to you?
What would that do to your psychology?
Okay, great question.
Permit me to answer it in a little bit of a roundabout way because I want to give you a substantive answer, right?
And so here's where I want to go into the idea of the simulation theory.
Because the deepest, darkest secret that somebody in that position, and Lockheed or Northrop or even at some of, let's say, at IBM and some of these, you know, computer companies, tech giants that have been in bed with the defense contractors and the government for decades.
The deepest, darkest secret that they would know isn't even anything to do with zero point energy drives or even with the psionic aspects of, say, piloting UFOs, which is another whole thing.
This new stuff that's coming out with these new whistleblowers, it sounds like a good idea.
By the way, I predicted it.
This is one of the reasons why that guy in the CIA contacted me after Closer Encounters came out.
Because one of the things that I argue throughout this whole book, actually, it goes back to even my first book, Prometheus and Atlas, is that I said.
That book was published in 2016.
I said, there's not going to be any UFO disclosure without disclosure of psychic abilities.
And there's not going to be any substantive scientific mainstream acceptance of psychic abilities without UFO disclosure.
These two things are completely inextricable.
They're going to find that there are psionic aspects to the guidance systems of UFOs.
And that basically the pilot interacting telepathically with the system is part of how the thing is piloted.
Yeah, the story of that guy, Michael Herrera, that he taught, that is straight out of Stranger Things.
We'll come to that.
So that goes to your question about what's the ethics of a person who's deep inside the system, right?
How has their worldview been shaped by the horrific things that they've been apprised of, right?
So to me, the most horrific thing isn't.
And not only that, but how does that shape your mind when you're almost living in.
It's like that new show that came out called Severance, where they basically have a chip installed in their head.
And when they go to work, they go up the elevator, it shuts them off from their mind in the.
Civilian world, and then they wake up in their mind in their work environment on their floor where they're severed.
So it's like they're living these two parallel lives.
Yeah, you got to develop a split personality.
Yeah, exactly.
Very much so.
Or like the doctor in Stranger Things, the one who works closely with 11.
Yes.
You know, the papa figure.
Right.
Like some of these guys are family men, and you know, they go home, they have to deal with their wives, they have to deal with their kids, and you know, they have to somehow dissociate from what it is they do at work every day.
Right.
In any case, What are the deepest, darkest secrets that these people have been apprised of?
You remember how I said in remote viewing of Mars by Joe McMonagall, there was this very curious thing he reported about how these people on Mars kept trying to find a way out.
And they couldn't find a way out no matter what they did.
What were they trying to find a way out of?
So they got to Earth.
I mean, if the theory that I'm proposing is correct.
They made it to Earth and they used the moon to terraform the Earth and so forth, right?
So they weren't trying to get out of Mars or get off of Mars.
What were they trying to get out of?
That's a good opener to this question of the simulation and what evidence there is that we might be living inside of a simulation.
So this is something that I discuss at length in my book, Satanion.
And I've discussed simulation theory in closer encounters.
And other books of mine before, but I discovered something recently that's much more rigorous from a mathematics and physics perspective, and consequently also more compelling and disturbing.
And that's this.
Okay, so bear with me.
It gets a little bit complicated.
So we start building computers in the 1940s, right?
Alan Turing and the big wall sized computers, and we're competing with the Nazis and the Maniac and the Iliac.
Yeah, ENIAC.
Landauer's Equation and Entropy00:15:11
And at that time in the 1940s, When we're building the first computers, there was this guy, Claude Shannon, who developed a science known as information theory, subsequently came to be known as information theory.
Because before computers were built, nobody thought of mathematically formalizing the transfer of information.
We had phones at that time, we had radio transmissions, but nobody thought about what was being transmitted over phone lines or over telegraph lines as data transfer.
That concept didn't exist.
But once they started building computers, it stands to reason that somebody would mathematically formulize what data is and what it means to transmit and transfer data.
So this guy, Claude Shannon, does this.
And he comes up with the idea of a binary digit, binary digit bit, where data is conceived of according to the binary of one and zero.
You know, data as being a construct built from out of sequences of ones and zeros.
Claude Shannon is the first person to conceptualize this.
And Shannon also makes the point that look, we live in a universe bound by the two laws of thermodynamics.
The first law of thermodynamics is that energy can never be created or destroyed.
Energy equals mc squared.
This is going to be important for what I'm about to say.
So, as Einstein showed us, energy and mass are interconvertible, e equals mc squared.
So, energy can become mass and mass can become energy.
We can't identify anywhere in the physical universe energy being created or destroyed.
That's the first law of thermodynamics.
Okay.
Net total energy remains the same.
Yep.
Okay.
So then the second law of thermodynamics is that we notice everywhere in nature, even, you know, like when you pour like a dye into a glass of water, that there's a tendency toward disorder in the cosmos over time.
And so the second law of thermodynamics is that in a closed system, The level of disorder or entropy either remains constant or increases.
It's never the case that entropy decreases in nature.
You never have more order emerge over time in large scale physical processes.
As things age, more disorder happens to our bodies, it happens to the whole universe.
And so, this is where they postulate the so called heat depth of the universe that at a certain point, The entropy will become so great that first, you know, galaxies are pulled apart, then solar systems are pulled apart, then planets are pulled apart, and eventually atomic structures are pulled apart.
And life becomes non viable in the universe.
Heat death of the universe, victory of entropy.
That's the second law of thermodynamics.
So Shannon says look, if bits, binary digits, meaning information, is flowing through a computer system, That computer system is in the physical world, meaning it's bound by the laws of entropy.
Meaning it's bound by the laws of entropy.
Okay?
So then there's this German Jewish physicist, Rolf Landauer.
He came over with the other German Jews who were fleeing the Nazis.
And in 1961, Rolf Landauer builds upon Claude Shannon's groundwork in information theory.
And he comes up with this equation, which I have in Satanian.
He comes up with this very short, elegant equation, extrapolated from out of the second law of thermodynamics, which says that.
If you delete one bit of information, there should be an increase of entropy outside of a computer system.
So think about it this way on a microchip or a magnetic tape, when it's blank, you've got the equivalent of 0000 or 111111.
There's no data.
When you record data on it, you get 010011101.
So, actually, the blank tape has more order than when you start encoding information on it when conceived in physical terms.
So, because information is meaningful to us, and like a file has a book on it, text on it, and the text has meaning to us, or a photographic image has a meaning content to us, we think of information as, let's say, decreasing entropy because we think of it as highly ordered because it's meaningful to us.
But when you think of it as a bunch of ones and zeros, sequences of ones and zeros, when you think of it inside of a physical system, the blank magnetic tape or the blank microchip has more order in it than when you start to record ones and zeros on it.
That's more chaotic.
Yes.
0011100.
So Rolf Landauer was saying if we erase the data, we're increasing.
I'm sorry.
If we erase the data, we're decreasing entropy inside the computer.
Now, according to the laws of thermodynamics, if you decrease entropy inside, somewhere inside the closed system, meaning the universe, you have to pay for it with an increase of entropy outside the computer.
So you're decreasing entropy inside the computer.
By deleting shit.
By deleting shit.
Okay.
That's got to result in more entropy outside the computer.
Okay.
Because the net energy has to remain the same.
Okay.
So he came up with an equation that expresses this where if you delete one bit of information, a certain amount of energy is released.
Got it.
Okay.
Now, here's where it's going to get weird and creepy.
Okay.
But that was all necessary background.
So we think that information is this abstract thing.
We think it's like not physical, right?
That's in the realm of ideas.
Yeah.
But what this equation is saying is the following that if you amass enough data, like on these huge server farms that we have in Silicon Valley, that we have in China, right?
Yeah.
And you're amassing not.
Bytes or megabytes, not terabytes, petabytes, whatever, right?
Of data, and you erase all that data, you're going to have to give off a shit ton of energy.
That's what Landauer's equation is saying is that if you erase a large amount of data, terabytes of data, there's a significant measurable energy release that's going to take place.
Now, according to E equals MC squared, right?
The interconvertibility of matter and energy, what does that mean?
Conversely, It means that if energy comes out of the computer when the data is released, terabytes and terabytes on some server, right?
Yeah.
What was it when it was inside the computer?
Mass.
It was mass.
So it's been proposed that we could weigh a hard drive before data is encoded on it, and then again after data is encoded on it.
Or take a hard drive that has data encoded on it, weigh it, erase the data, and then weigh it again.
There will be a mass differential.
So there's mass inside a computer.
That's not anything to do with the microchips or the transistors or magnetic tapes or anything.
It's a hidden mass.
This has been done, this weighing?
No, here's why.
Because currently, according to Landauer's equation, if you were to calculate the mass of all of the information in the world today, on all of the largest server farms that we have here and that AI is being run off of in China.
The total mass, according to that equation, comes to one kilogram, less than one kilogram, less than one kilogram.
Meaning that we don't have sensitive enough weighing equipment to weigh a hard drive, let alone even a server, right?
I mean, we couldn't even weigh a server, let alone a hard drive, because the mass currently is too little.
However, the rate of data increase per year, the rate at which we're accumulating information per year, is approximately 25%.
Okay?
And if you think about where we're going technologically, we're headed toward this technological singularity where we're going to have artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence inside of robots like the Tesla robots.
We're going to have these systems constantly accumulating all kinds of data, right?
And so it stands to reason that as we approach the technological singularity, the rate of data increase per year is going to exponentially take off way beyond 25%, maybe close to 100%.
But get this.
Even if it were to stay 25%, which it won't, but even if it were, I did the calculations there in my book, Satanion.
In something like 340 years, the amount of information that will exist in the world at the current rate of data production will equal the mass of the moon.
Now, go back to our conversation about the moon.
The moon was brought here to terraform the planet, potentially.
In other words, the moon has massive gravitational effects on the earth.
Yes.
Massive.
It took us from having eight hour days to having 24 hour days.
It controls the ocean tides.
It's responsible for the tilt of the Earth's axis.
The moon has tremendous gravitational pull on the Earth, and the moon only weighs 1.23% of the mass of the Earth.
It weighs only, which by the way.
And what's the size?
What's the size comparison from the moon to the Earth?
I don't have the numbers.
Can you find it, Steve?
Yeah.
So 1.23% to 2.3% mass of the Earth.
Okay.
So get this.
I did the calculations, and.
Something like, I think it was like 340 years from now, something like that.
We're going to wind up with a mass equivalent.
The moon is one quarter the size of the earth in diameter.
Yeah.
So, isn't that weird, also, by the way?
Find the mass.
See if ChatGPT will give you the mass.
No, you would need to, the percentage of the mass of the earth.
Oh, yeah, right.
The moon is approximately 27% the size of the earth in diameter, volume.
It has a volume of about 2%.
Right.
1.2.
1.23 is the specific number.
Anyway, so listen, I did these calculations, Danny.
And so it says to illustrate if the earth were hollow, it would take 50 moons to fill it, but it's less than 2% of the volume.
Yeah, which by the way doesn't make sense in and of itself.
In terms of, you know, the moon would have to be hollow.
There you go.
Anyway, I did these calculations.
Yes.
Something like 340 years from now.
Okay.
There's going to be a moon's worth of mass.
In the data centers on the Earth.
So the Earth is going to weigh about a moon more than it weighs now.
It'll start to tear apart the planet.
How?
Imagine if you were to take the moon.
Look, the moon is at a certain distance from us, right?
It's pretty far.
Yeah.
And from that distance, it's having this massive gravitational effect on us.
Imagine you took the moon's mass and you distribute it to Silicon Valley, to the major data centers of China.
You put that mass right on the surface of the Earth.
It will start generating tidal forces.
Toward that gravity well.
It will start attracting objects toward the gravity well.
I realize it sounds bizarre, but metal chairs and knives and forks will start to go towards servers.
The servers will become a gravity well.
There will be so much mass inside them that it's as if the moon is on the surface of the earth.
It gets worse.
So, all the data on earth right now, if you could combine them, less than one kilogram, less than a kilogram.
But because the exponential rate of data increase is so high, Right.
25% per year right now.
300 something years.
In 300 something years, we're going to wind up with a moon's mass worth of data on the Earth.
And what's worse is that, like 20 years after that, I think it was 20 years exactly after that, we wind up with an Earth's worth of mass on the Earth.
It will go from weighing equal to the moon to weighing equal to the Earth itself, which means at that point, the planet will be completely torn apart.
Unless we can find another way to store data.
Yes.
Like off the Earth, maybe.
Sure.
Sure.
Or maybe we like tap into some sort of consciousness and we store everything there.
You could build super massive structures.
Out of like nanomaterials and whatever, potentially to do something like this.
Yeah.
Here's what I want to go somewhere else with this.
Where I want to go with this is simulation theory, right?
So, think a little bit about this.
Like, you accumulate this much data, and this is what it would do to the earth, right?
And you, so you, if you weigh a hard drive before you record data on it, it weighs less than after you record data on it.
Okay.
But we can't see this mass.
I mean, you open up, suppose you're one of these very technically adept computer geeks and you take the screwdriver to your computer, open it.
Where the fuck is the mass?
You can't see it.
Right.
Even in these giant servers, 340 years from now, once there's a moon's worth of mass in terms of information on the Earth, you can't see it inside the servers.
Is there any other example of mass that we can't see in the universe?
Yeah, it's dark matter.
Now, okay, I got it.
Here's where it gets creepy, man.
Here's where it gets really creepy.
So, how was dark matter discovered?
It was discovered through three different types of experiments in the 1970s.
First, in the early 1970s, when we started to be able to observe galaxies, we noticed that they don't obey the spin rate that they should according to Newtonian mechanics.
According to Newtonian physics, Since most of the mass of the galaxy is concentrated toward the center of the galaxy, the inside of a galaxy should be spinning at a faster rate than the outer arms are.
Detecting Dark Matter Signals00:07:37
That's not what we see.
We see a mostly even spin rate in galaxies.
So that really got the physicists scratching their head.
This suggests for most of the visible galaxy to be spinning at the same rate, it would mean that there's a lot of mass outside of the galaxy that's distorting or flattening the spin rate.
Then they did another kind of observation of distant galaxies that has to do with the refraction of light.
So we have galaxies that are further from us and galaxies that are closer to us.
And the mass of the galaxies closer to us bends the light of the galaxies that are far from us.
So, based on how, at what angle the light is bent as it reaches our telescopes from distant galaxies, we can estimate the weight, the mass of the galaxies that are closer to us.
You follow?
I mean, kind of.
You got galaxies that are far, far from us, right?
We're trying to look at them.
Yeah, yeah.
Galaxies have different masses and they bend light.
So, the light coming from them.
Is bent by the galaxies that are closer to us.
Yeah, I understand that.
It's like they're going around the rim of a black hole.
It bends the light.
Right, right.
Okay.
So they observed this and they said, well, wait, this doesn't make any sense.
We know the mass of such and such galaxy.
It's bending the light much more severely than it should based on what we think that galaxy weighs.
So then they did a third observation where they said, okay, well, maybe there's gas.
Maybe there's a bunch of gas in these galaxies that's giving them more mass than we can see.
Okay.
So they looked at the same galaxies with spectrometers that can detect gas.
And estimate the masses of gas.
Nope.
Doesn't account for anywhere near the amount that this light is bent by.
Okay.
So, putting these, and these observations were all made in the 70s the first one in the early 70s, the second in the mid to late 70s.
Putting all three of these together, they came to the conclusion that there's a ton of mass around these galaxies that we can't see.
It's not electromagnetically detectable.
And yet, it has massive gravitational effects.
Okay, so massive.
What does that mean?
So, well, look, the amount of mass that we can't see, that we can't electromagnetically observe, that ensconces galaxies, that surrounds them, is such that it flattens the spin rate of a galaxy.
The inside should be spinning much faster than the outside, and yet it's spinning at the same rate.
Okay, so that's a ton of mass that's not electromagnetically observable, but it's so gravitationally powerful that it's altering the spin rate of a whole galaxy.
Okay.
Okay, well, so we have a form of mass that we can't detect electromagnetically, and yet it has massive gravitational effects.
It's dark matter, right?
That's what's inside your computer.
Dark matter.
Information is the same thing.
It's the same thing.
It's the same thing.
And once you realize that, one of the first people who I think realized this was John Archibald Wheeler.
I think he worked at Princeton.
American physicist John Archibald Wheeler.
He made this formulation, it from bit.
He said, look, if we want to say that information is a third state of matter and energy, in other words, that it's not only the case that, as Einstein realized, matter and energy are interconvertible, matter and energy are both also interconvertible with information.
So when you delete the data on the computer, it increases entropy by giving off energy.
So, you have three terms in this relation.
It's not just matter and energy, it's matter, energy, and information.
And they're all interconvertible into each other.
And the kind of matter that information is before you delete it is dark matter.
You cannot electromagnetically detect it, but it has massive gravitational effects when it gets dense enough, when it reaches a critical mass.
So Wheeler said, John Archibald Wheeler, well, why don't we just say that energy and matter are forms of information and that we live in an informational cosmos and it, things, solid things, come from bit, it from bit.
Well, that's very useful in terms of reconciling, for example, physics with parapsychology, right?
I mean, one of the reasons why parapsychology has been marginalized for so many decades is because no one's been able to come up with a physical model that can explain telepathy and clairvoyance and precognition.
And a lot of physicists have tried.
Dean Radin, for example, somebody came from out of the physics community relatively recently, tried to model psi, you know, in a rigorous enough framework to accommodate.
Quantum theory and so forth.
But no one's been able to do it.
Well, if you change your paradigm and you consider that actually we're living in an information matrix and that what we think of as matter and energy are forms of information, then the data from parapsychology makes a lot more sense.
Because an information system is one where consciousness is fundamental and intrinsic, an information processing system is one that's meant to have meaning for minds.
You're not starting from physics, from protons, electrons, and neutrons, dead unconscious matter, and trying to build up the consciousness from that and figure out how consciousness interacts with that.
You're starting from the understanding that we live in an information processing system.
And by the way, this suddenly then makes sense of all the paradoxes of quantum theory, like the wave particle duality.
So, you know, this double slit experiment?
Yes.
Why would it be the case that only if you turn on a detector, Meaning that there's a person observing the experiment.
Even if you observe, observation means checking the data that was recorded later.
Yes.
It's still observation.
Yes.
Why would it be the case that only when you turn on the detector, you make an observation, do you get a particle with a distinct location?
And before that, it's a waveform, meaning it's a probability distribution of something that could be a particle.
In computer science, they call that rendering optimization.
It's used in video games all the time.
Yeah.
Things that aren't being looked at aren't rendered.
It conserves processing power.
Right.
That supports the simulation theory.
Totally.
That we're living inside of a computer program.
And so, what is dark matter?
Dark matter is the program that we're living in.
Yeah, but the dark matter around the galaxy is the one that we have physically observed through all these different observational mechanisms, telescopes, and so forth.
It's a computational cloud.
It's a computational cloud around the galaxy.
And it's probably projecting what we see.
And experience.
We're detecting the computational system when we detect dark matter, which nobody seems to know what the fuck it is.
The Computational Cloud Galaxy00:15:48
Which you're saying is the same thing as data, information that is stored on hard drives.
So, yeah, this is in my book, Satanion.
And the chapter is called Catastrophic Information because there's a physicist recently who's looked at all of this and he conceptualizes this as an information catastrophe.
Melvin Vopson.
He's working at a university in Britain, I believe.
He's, I think, Romanian originally, but he's working in the UK.
And he calls it the information catastrophe because, look, at a certain point, We're going to reach a critical mass of data, which will have geophysically catastrophic effects.
Oh, here's the other thing.
So I investigated what would be the geophysical effects of reaching a critical mass of data.
Guess what?
It turns out to be every single catastrophe that's been held responsible for the destruction of Atlantis.
So, all these, you have all these theorists from like, Plato, all the way, way back, Plato, to Senator Ignatius Donnelly in the 1800s with his book Atlantis, The Antediluvian World, to Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, all these people talking about the various catastrophes.
Don't forget Flint Dibble.
The various catastrophes that might have destroyed the civilization.
And by the way, just on a quick side note, you cannot argue with 1,300 ton megaliths.
In Baalbek, Lebanon, which are fitted together with razor precision, and you can't even slip a razor blade between the joints.
You cannot argue with that, okay?
Or those, exactly.
The Egyptians had those too, and who knows who they got them from, right?
And with what tools they were made.
Perfectly symmetrical.
How do they make it on a computer?
Yeah, so this civilization existed, okay?
And there are all these geophysical catastrophes that have been postulated as the cause for the destruction of this worldwide, highly advanced technical culture, right?
Guess what?
If you wind up with a moon's mass worth of data at Silicon Valley or in China, you know what winds up happening?
Every single thing that anyone's ever held responsible for the destruction of Atlantis.
Number one, the crust sinks underneath the data center.
Number two, it creates a tidal force like the moon does, so the oceans get pulled in toward the data center.
Crust sinks, there's a massive flood.
It causes earthquakes because it activates the gravitational pull from the servers, activates all the tectonic plates.
So you wind up also with massive earthquakes.
The same gravitational pull sets off volcanoes.
So you get volcanoes going off all over the planet.
Potentially, the gravitational disturbance would also even tilt the axis of the Earth, which is something that many people from Charles Hapgood onward have postulated was responsible for the destruction of Atlantis.
That potentially Atlantis was Antarctica.
That's one theory.
And that it was suddenly pulled into the South Polar region due to a crustal slippage.
Yeah.
Well, that's also something that would happen.
So I mapped out what would be the geophysical implications of such a critical mass of data.
And it's every single thing that anyone's ever thought destroyed Atlantis.
Not one or the other of them, all of them at once.
So then you got to wonder what actually destroyed that civilization?
Could it be hard drives?
You know, it sounds funny, man, but.
You know, look, it stands to reason.
If we're headed for an information catastrophe, what if it crept up on them without them realizing what they were doing?
And that's what actually destroyed that civilization.
Oh, my God.
I had this guy on here from the NSA, Tom Drake, and he was explaining that they have what was, do you remember, Steve, what he said?
Said they have like acres and acres out in the desert somewhere.
I want to say like in Nevada or in Wyoming.
It was somewhere in the Midwest where they have just like farms after farms after farms of these massive hard drives that are collecting all of the surveillance data that they're using.
Yes.
From satellites, from phones, from literally every single potential way the NSA can collect data on people.
So, Utah?
Yeah, Utah.
That's it.
The Utah Data Center, known as the.
Bumbleheve location.
The facility spans 1 million square feet and includes a 100,000 square feet tier three mission critical data center designed to store vast amounts of data, estimated to be on the order of exabytes or larger to support comprehensive national security initiatives.
The data center uses the Cray XC30 supercomputer capable of scaling workloads of more than 100 petaflops or 100 trillion calculations each second.
Look at the picture.
Can you pull up a photo of it, like on the images?
I'm on Brave right here.
Oh, absolutely not.
Oh, that's terrible.
Here, I'll get it for you.
Crazy.
Yeah, they're not going to want to have detailed photography of that site available.
I bet you if you Google image search that, you'd be one of these places that's blocked out.
Is that it?
That's it under construction.
Yeah.
It's only recently constructed, I think.
And that's another thing is that.
So, this crust is going to sink under that one day.
Right.
If this theory is correct.
Or it's going to create, it's going to start, it's going to become a magnetic anomaly and throw off the spin of the earth somehow.
That's right.
That's right.
You know, so there'd be early warning signs, compasses would start malfunctioning in the vicinity of it.
This is so crazy, man.
So, how did we get here?
You asked me what.
would be the effect of knowing the deepest, darkest secrets on somebody, let's say in the NSA, who has that level of clearance, somebody inside Lockheed who has that level of clearance, right?
Even IBM.
IBM's done a lot of dark shit.
IBM made the punch card computer equipment that allowed the Nazis to process Jews through the concentration camps.
Yep.
Yeah.
So well, I mean, there's a lot of companies that were still around today that did a lot of dark shit with the Nazis, right?
Oh, yeah.
But those people are all dead and the company's still alive.
Sure.
The question is, is the idea dead?
And that really speaks to what you asked me.
Look, it's one thing, what does it do to your worldview to know that there are people living in underground cities on Mars or to know that the moon is an artificial satellite?
Right.
And you're one of like a dozen people on Earth who have this information.
Yeah.
But it's another thing if what you know is that we're living in a simulation.
And not only are we living in a simulation, we're living in a simulation with a computational ceiling, meaning that it's inbuilt. that we cannot exceed a certain level of data production.
You understand?
That's a cap on our civilization.
It means that, I mean, look, remember people talk about the Kardashev scale.
You ever heard about the Kardashev scale?
No.
Mishi Okaku used to talk about it a lot.
Not that I want to reference Mishi Okaku because his con artistry promoting, you know, string theory really damaged the physics community for decades.
But Mishi Okaku is somebody who brought back this idea of the Kardashev scale.
It's this Russian scientist who basically came up with this scale of the level of civilization, type one, type two, type three, based on their amount of energy usage.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
But the thing about the Kardashev scale is that, okay, one metric is energy usage, but another is the level of data production.
Right?
So we're living in a simulacrum that doesn't allow anyone to even become a type two Kardashev civilization, which, by the way, would explain why they're.
Look, the skeptics always say, Where are all the aliens?
How come there are no aliens here?
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Fermi paradox.
Yeah.
They never.
When they keep citing the Fermi paradox, they like to turn a blind eye to the UFO phenomenon.
But even if you consider all the data of the UFO phenomenon, there's actually no really hard evidence that anyone's coming here from outside our solar system.
Right.
There isn't.
Right.
And these entities, at least the ones who seem to be in charge, look human.
Yes.
And the little grays, those are humanoid robots.
That's what Stephen Greer said.
Yeah.
I'm sure you've heard of Mike Masters.
You've read his books.
Of course.
That's the best, most comprehensive explanation as to why these things are so far away.
My problem with Mike Masters is that he, He adheres to the block universe idea of the way time is, closed time like curves.
He thinks it's not possible to change history when you time travel.
Whereas I've made extensive arguments.
Or timelines.
Yes.
And that would mean.
Or multiverse.
Yes.
According to how Mike Masters understands the dynamics of time travel, we would not have any free will.
We would be living in a universe where the future is already determined.
Anyway, that's a metaphysical argument for us philosophers.
Sure.
But generally, the idea coming from an anthropologist.
Anthropological background is that for a being to come from another star system or another Goldilocks planet to have two arms, two legs, upright hominid, brains on top of the eyes, it would have to be the exact same conditions that Earth is under with the atmosphere, with everything like that.
And it would be like, as to how rare we are on Earth, we're like 0001% of the species on Earth that look the way we do and we're able to develop technology to get off the Earth.
So you extrapolate that into the universe, it's like virtually impossible to have another being that looks so similar to us.
I find that.
A useful argument?
Uh, because I actually do think that we're dealing with um descendants of the human race and other versions of the human race in this phenomenon.
However, I have to say in defense of Greer, I watched some of your interview with him not all of it and he did bring up a point that was legitimate, but he expressed it in a way where I think he wasn't making himself clear.
Remember where he came back and said to you, no, actually it's very likely that there will be humanoid life on another.
Yeah, I agree.
Here's what he was trying to say, Rupert Sheldrake.
He said something about morphic resonance.
Rupert Sheldrake, a British biologist, who has looked at a lot of different empirical evidence for another form of causality in nature besides efficient causality.
Efficient causality is like billiard ball causality, bing, bang, bong, you know, things colliding with each other on an atomic, subatomic level.
Right?
Now, The view that the whole universe works only according to efficient causality, the materialist, reductionist, mechanistic model of the universe, is only a couple hundred years old.
Back in the day, even in the Renaissance, let alone in classical antiquity when people like Aristotle were formulating how the universe functions, there were other forms of causality like formal causes, where forms were considered a cause, a shaping influence that.
Guided biological and physical development.
Okay?
So form was considered a type of cause in and of itself.
And in the Aristotelian view of the world, there are also final causes, in other words, purposes in nature.
That, you know, embedded in the seed of a plant is a purpose to become a certain type of plant.
And to absorb light from the sun and to alter the nutrients of the earth that the plant is growing in and to grow fruit that nourishes people is part of the purpose of a plant.
Kind of like the soul of something.
Yeah, the aim, the aim of something.
The soul of an axe is to chop.
The aim of something.
Part of the soul of the plant is also the form of the plant.
And they thought that forms were causes.
So you had in Aristotle, you had a material cause, which is what something's made of.
Then you had the formal cause, which is like what the thing is supposed to take, what shape the thing is supposed to take.
And it's embedded in the seed.
And then you have the purpose of the thing.
And then efficient causality, which is the only one we're left with in modern physics, is just how these other causes shape the thing.
Okay.
And that's all we're left with in modern physics.
What Rupert Sheldrake found is lots of evidence for formal causes.
And he calls it formative causation or morphic resonance.
Morphe is the Greek for form.
Okay, morphic resonance.
Resonance of form or formative causation.
So, for example, this is what Greer was trying to get across.
It turns out that in a pharmaceutical laboratory, when you try to crystallize a Compound for the first time to make a drug, let's say, right?
The first time you try to crystallize a chemical compound, it takes a very long time to cohere.
It's very hit and miss and takes a long time to cohere, to crystallize.
The second time you try to synthesize that compound in a completely different laboratory, let's say on the other side of the planet, it forms instantly.
Much faster.
Yeah.
So it's as if when something works and takes shape in a certain way for the first time, Something about the world remembers that it works that way.
And so the second time it's attempted, it takes that shape much more quickly.
It's a resonance of form across space and time, irrespective of space and time.
And there have been a lot of evidence that has been found in biology, where they call it convergent evolution also.
This is another name for this convergent evolution, where You have two completely distinct species, like let's say a species of dolphin, and then you have a certain kind of land mammal or whatever, you know.
And there are certain solutions to evolutionary stresses that are arrived at in these two completely distinct species whose common ancestor is like millions of years in the past.
And because it seemed to work in one species, evolution seems to adopt that solution in a completely unrelated species.
So, what Greer was suggesting is that if this type of causation, morphic resonance, or formative causation, works irrespective of space time, it could be the case that on planets that are slightly different from ours, I mean, not so radically different that you don't have anything more complex than bacteria.
Collective Unconscious Holograms00:15:23
But in a planet slightly different than Mars, because the anthropoid form worked here or maybe worked on Mars 100 million years ago, the memory of the cosmos stores that solution and implements it again as an efficient solution in a different evolutionary context.
You're talking about like the dark matter memory.
Well, I'm saying it's that.
Sheldrake is an Anglican Christian.
I got into an exchange with him once.
You're combining your theory with.
So Sheldrake wouldn't want to believe this, right?
He thinks the He thinks these forms exist in the mind of God, basically.
He won't say that as a biologist, okay?
But he's an Anglican Christian, so he thinks these forms, this memory that stores evolutionary solutions or stores suitable pharmaceutical crystallization formulas, he thinks that's like in the mind of God, basically.
I think it's in the simulation.
It's a computer system.
When something works, the system remembers, and it's not going to waste processing power.
Next time it sees something as Grappling with the same problems, it remembers, oh, here was a solution to that.
Let me implement it again.
So, what Greer was trying to say is that it could just turn out that the two arms, two legs, brain on top is a very efficient solution.
And so the system remembers that and it implements that solution on another planet, you know, in another galaxy, right?
Halfway across the universe.
Okay, so that's possible.
That's a possible solution.
Yeah, the word he used was he tried to use the word quantum entanglement for it, saying that.
Anyways, I got to get a leak real quick.
Let's take a quick break.
We'll be right back, folks.
All right, we're back.
We were getting deep.
Where were we?
We were in dark matter.
Yes, yes.
Okay, dark matter, and we were in the resonic or morphic resonance.
Morphic resonance.
Okay, yes.
We were talking about morphic resonance because, you know.
So, saying like how a monkey can figure out how to make a tool in Australia and simultaneously it happens in North America at the same time.
Yeah, the hundredth monkey phenomenon.
Look at that.
They found this with rats.
Too.
They would run rats through mazes where, you know, they're shocked or rewarded depending on whether they, you know, can navigate the maze successfully.
Yeah.
And they run the same kind of test with a completely different group of rats in a different country.
And if the first group of, the first set of rats learns the maze successfully, the second set of rats in a different country picks up where the other group left off in their learning curve.
So it suggests that there is this.
Morphic resonance.
Also, I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but there were also studies that were done where they taught the rats the mazes and then they like chopped out a portion of their brain and they were able to accurately figure out the maze again after, or they flipped their brain upside down, like completely scrambled their brains and they remembered.
Yeah, Carl Prebrum studied this in the 1980s, 70s, 80s.
Carl Prebrum, and he developed. what's called the holographic brain theory, that information is encoded in the brain, including skills, are encoded in the brain, both content memory and behavioral memory, in a way that's similar to how an image is encoded in a hologram, where you can slice up the hologram any number of times, a true hologram,
the kind that you need a laser beam to shine on for the image to pop out of, Shitty cheap holograms that they distribute everywhere.
Like really good holograms where if you go to, I don't know, a museum or whatever exhibit and you see super high fidelity.
Like the Tupac thing where they got the Tupac performing in front of the crowd and they put a hologram right there.
Have you seen that?
No, I haven't seen it.
Show them that.
Show them the Tupac.
Let's not put.
I don't want Tupac winding up in the middle of this podcast.
Why not?
What do you got?
What's your problem with Tupac?
Anyway, listen, laser beams, laser beams, right?
Are shown on a holographic film and an image pops out.
Okay.
Okay.
Now it turns out that if you slice the hologram into fours and you shine the laser beam on any quarter of that hologram, the whole image still pops out.
It's a little bit blurrier.
Okay.
Cut it into eighths, whole image still pops out.
Out of any. fragment of this hologram.
And what Prebram said is that the brain seems to work the same way.
So that's some trauma victims, some, who have some level of physical brain damage still remember things and have certain abilities, even though some of the parts of their brain that you would think are most relevant to that skill have been physically damaged because the brain records information holographically.
Now, this is relevant to what we're talking about in terms of the simulation.
And I mentioned this. in my book Prometheism, in the chapter on the end of reality, David Bohm took this data that Carl Prebrum basically analyzed in terms of how the brain works, and he applied the same model to the whole universe.
And Bohm, David Bohm, the physicist, argued that certain characteristics of quantum theory, like what we discussed earlier, wave-particle duality, and also quantum entanglement, suggest that the universe functions like a hologram, that we're living in a universe that has holographic properties.
And Michael Talbot gave a very sort of compelling, popular presentation of this in his book, The Holographic Universe.
Great, great text from the 90s.
Now, that's another angle on the simulation theory, this idea that the universe, like the brain, has holographic properties.
In other words, that it's an information storage and processing system.
In that metaphor, the laser being shown on the holographic film is consciousness.
The laser is consciousness.
Yeah.
So, for example, in the double slit experiment, right?
When the laser particle beam, whatever, is not being observed and it passes through the double slits and registers on the photographic film as a wave form.
Right, meaning that it passed through the double slits as a probability distribution of whether it would go through one slit or the other.
That's like a piece of holographic film without a laser being shown on it, where all you see are swirls in the film.
In a true hologram, when you look at a holographic film, you can't see any image in it, it's a bunch of swirls.
Right, you need the laser beam to shine on it for the image to pop out.
I understand what you're saying.
That's like observation in the double slit experiment, right?
Where consciousness is akin to the laser beam that's being shown on the hologram.
That makes sense.
What Bohm and then Talbot were saying is that it's consciousness that makes the universe pop out to us as a phenomenal experience from out of code, from out of mathematical wave functions.
Right.
In an information process.
So then, what is consciousness?
Exactly.
You ask that question on the other side of two, three hundred years of conditioning in a reductionist way.
mechanistic physical model from the time of Newton onward, where it's expected that consciousness should be explained as a phenomenon reducible to some kind of physical mechanism.
Well, if Wheeler was right in his interpretation of, you know, this information theory that we were talking about, beginning with Claude Shannon, continuing with Rolf Landauer, if Wheeler's interpretation that it caused.
What was Wheeler's first name?
John.
John Archibald Wheeler.
Okay, by the way, he had security clearances and worked with people deep in the deep state, including on the UFO subject, secretly.
So, this goes to your question like, what does it do to your worldview when you know this shit about how the universe works?
Right.
Right.
Then, not only are we living under the Death Star, but actually we're living inside a simulation.
What does that do to your view of the world and your sense of ethics?
Yeah.
But, point being, if you ask, what is consciousness coming from out of this physicalist reductionist.
Conditioning, this established mechanistic paradigm we've been living in for two, three hundred years.
Yeah.
Well, if Wheeler is correct and it comes from bit, it's a nonsensical question.
What is consciousness?
Consciousness is an irreducible precondition of any physical phenomena whatsoever.
The universe, the existence of any other experienceable phenomena is predicated on the fact of consciousness.
If we're living in an information processing system, Danny, right?
For whom is the information being processed?
And the information processing system is there to render meaningful content to a mind or to minds.
Okay.
Meaning the consciousness is intrinsic to the system.
Got it.
And by the way, that should be the intuitively correct view.
Like, this is some bizarre counterintuitive thing to imagine that consciousness is some derivative phenomenon that needs to be explained in terms of gears.
And like billiard balls, that we need to build consciousness up from out of mechanistic physics.
That's not intuitive at all.
What do you make of Jung's idea of consciousness?
How he explained it as like this archipelago.
He explained consciousness, human consciousness, as like this giant, connected big thing, this big rock or big island or whatever.
And there's water above it and there's all these little islands sticking out.
We are each individual islands of our own consciousness, our own ego or whatever.
But below the ocean, it's like this whole archipelago island that's connected.
Right.
And it's all one thing.
People say these things about Jung.
When you actually look into Jung, it's a little bit more nuanced than that.
And it's connected to other ideas that are more complex and more disturbing.
So, what you're talking about is the collective unconscious, what Jung called the collective unconscious.
Right.
Okay.
But what often isn't quoted from Jung is that Jung believed that different races had different collective unconsciouses.
So, he's not talking about the collective of humanity.
He makes this point very distinctly.
That, for example, the German people have Wotan or Odin as an archetype that guides their collective unconscious, the Germanic collective unconscious.
So, you know, as World War II was starting, Jung wrote about how he thought that the Nazis exploding onto the world stage were an eruption from out of the collective unconscious of the Germanic people and that it was the god Odin as an archetype coming back into the world.
And this idea is not unique to Jung, and he didn't come up with it.
Actually, if you dig deeper into the German intellectual history, you find this in the philosophy of mind of Hegel, Georg Hegel, who you want to talk about somebody hard to read.
I mean, Hegel, man.
There's no more cryptic and dense writer probably in the entire human intellectual history than that fucker.
But I've worked through some of Hegel.
And in his philosophy of mind, it's very clear that one of the things he's saying is that different races, closely knit ethnic groups, have something like unconscious telepathy going on.
Right.
And actually, you can see this very clearly in isolated tribes.
People who've done anthropological research on tribes in Australia or in certain parts of Africa have seen that not only is there telepathy connecting members in the tribe, there's a lot of clairvoyance and stuff too.
Like they function.
You know, primitive tribes function in a way similar to schools of fish or flocks of birds.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so, an extension of that is that even as civilization arises, certain closely knit ethnic groups share a collective unconscious.
So, Jung wasn't saying that, like, on some kumbaya mystical level, we're all one.
Right.
He was describing properties of the collective unconscious of different groups of people.
But it could be that that's a nested hierarchy, you know, a nested hierarchy.
In other words, You have very tightly knit collective unconsciouses of different races.
Yes.
But then there is a level of kind of telepathic communication among humanity in general.
Right.
And this goes to morphic resonance, what we were saying about morphic resonance earlier.
So that if there were humans somewhere else, like let's say there are also humans on Mars, there might be a kind of telepathic link between humans on Earth and humans on Mars.
That is not in any way, shape, or form saying that all sentient life in the universe.
Is fundamentally interconnected, which is the claim a lot of sort of new age people want to make.
That makes sense.
We're all one and it's all one and it's all of God and whatever.
That makes sense.
The collective unconscious is actually a testable claim.
It's hard to test, but it's a reasonable postulate in psychology and anthropology.
What do you think makes some of these individuals who are able to do some of this consciousness stuff, like whether it be, People in the Stargate program doing remote viewing, or whether it be some of these folks that these whistleblowers are talking about doing these psionic, psychic takeovers of UFOs.
Is there something fundamental about certain people that gives them this ability?
Like, I know, for example, this guy David Morehouse came in here.
He got shot in the head, right?
He got a stray bullet hit him in the helmet, like knocked him unconscious, and he had severe TBI.
And that's when they admitted him to the Stargate program.
But other people seem to, like Ingo Swan or Uri Geller, seem to be just innately born with this ability.
I think there are three different things going on.
First of all, Gary Nolan claims that the research he's done at Stanford is that he's found that there are structural properties of the brains of these people.
The basal ganglia.
Yes, involving the basal ganglia that are.
Atrophy of Psychic Abilities00:10:21
Significantly different from the average in the population.
So there could be elements of the physiological development of the brain, which is genetic.
Yes.
And to some extent, environmental.
Okay.
That I say to some extent environmental because, like, radiation, for example, can mutate people, right?
It can mutate their brain development.
And also, I think Michael Herrera was saying that some of the people that they got on that mission had just survived an earthquake in the United States.
Well, that comes to another reason, another factor.
Well, it's a distinct factor.
I would imagine that that was because they were not a part of this civilized technical world that we live in.
They're more in tune to nature.
Okay.
In that case, there are four factors.
Good, very good point.
This goes back to the Australian Aborigines and the people tribes in Africa that I was just referencing.
So, four different factors.
One, so Gary Nolan's research suggests that there are physical differences in the brains of these people.
They're slight, but they're significant, involving the, you know, significant to the level of psychic ability that someone demonstrates.
And it involves the basal ganglia.
Another factor is trauma.
And we're going to come back to that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's definitely a huge correlation.
Yeah, there's definitely a huge correlation between trauma, especially trauma from childhood, and the degree of someone's extrasensory perception.
Another factor is level of civilization, which you're just referencing, that there's a clear correlation between the rise of technical intellect, the hypertrophy of our analytical mind, and the atrophy of psychic abilities.
Yes.
I talk about this in my first book, Prometheus and Atlas.
That it's very obvious studying primitive tribes that they have much stronger psychic abilities, which stands to reason because animals have much stronger psychic abilities than humans.
Studies on dogs and on horses and on fish and birds have shown that they have much stronger psychic abilities than humans.
So it stands to reason that primitive tribes were still living close to nature, also, would not have experienced an atrophy of their psychic abilities because they're relying more on analytical reasoning and on the technology that comes from it.
Right.
Right.
So as we've separated ourselves from nature, both through analytical thinking and through material technologies to do shit for us, we've this is atrophied.
It's interesting.
I've heard people who've come on the podcast describe the experience of going down to like the Amazon rainforest and being down there for weeks or even months.
And they're saying once you're down there isolated from this hyper evolved technical world we live in in America and you get out of it into.
Nature out there, something happens to you where your body just becomes in tune with the jungle.
Where you, it's weird where you can sense dangers.
Like, not just, I'm not talking about ESP type stuff, where I'm saying like there's something built into us, like deep, buried deep inside of us, where we automatically can like sense the way the birds are chirping that there's danger near, right?
Little things, like little things in nature that we didn't even know were there inside of us.
Yeah.
Well, people say getting in touch with your instincts.
What does that mean?
Right.
Okay.
So there's like some deep evolution that's in us that comes out when we're put back in those environments.
Someone who wrote a lot about this in a fairly sophisticated way was the French philosopher Henri Bergson.
Bergson was an early 20th century philosopher who also, by the way, got involved with the League of Nations.
And he, you know, the organization that today is called UNESCO, the United Nations Educational and Scientific Organization, UNESCO, which Trump is defunding.
I don't blame him.
Given what UNESCO has become.
But back in the day, before the UN was even formed and it was still the League of Nations, remember the predecessor organization?
Bergson helped set up, and I think he, yeah, he was the first director or he was a director of UNESCO.
So he was not just a philosopher like, you know, in an ivory tower.
He made a big impact on public intellectual culture.
Anyway, Bergson in his book, Creative Evolution, and also in his book, Matter and Memory, he discusses the evolutionary bifurcation of intellect and instinct.
And he shows how various species that operate entirely on instinct.
Because of their morphological structure, because the way their bodies are constructed, like certain insects, they don't have the potential to develop technology because their bodies are too well suited to grappling with their environment.
It's like they're born ready to handle the world.
Humans are born crippled.
Right.
And therefore, we need technology.
Right.
And so, as we develop technology, And as we develop the model building intellectually that allows us to engineer technology, in other words, as we develop a scientific analytical mindset, our instinct atrophies.
So there's this evolutionary bifurcation between instinct, I'm sorry, intuition, sorry, no, instinct and intellect.
And what Bergson says is that what we call intuition is the resurgence of instinct in the context of a life form.
With a dominant analytical intellect.
So, our intuition is us getting back in touch with the instinct that these other animals operated accordingly.
Isn't that interesting, too?
Like, with human beings, how long it takes us from birth to be able to survive in the environment.
Like, we're literally helpless for years.
Yeah, for sure.
And that goes to the heart of the myth of Prometheus that's been central to all of my work.
Because, you know, one of the elements of the myth of Prometheus that a lot of people neglect because they don't really, you know, look into it, they just think about, oh, Prometheus stole fire from the gods.
To give men the power of ingenuity, okay?
That Prometheus brought this fire to be a forge for all kinds of technical innovation and invention, right?
But part of the myth of Prometheus is that he's so Zeus lets Prometheus design humans.
Humans are creations of Prometheus, not of Zeus in Greek mythology.
Right.
Except Prometheus, whose name means forethought, has this forgetful brother, Epimetheus.
His name means afterthought.
And Epimetheus kind of begs Prometheus to be involved in the project of the creation of man.
And Prometheus subcontracts part of the design of humans to Epimetheus.
Epimetheus forgets to endow humans with an essence particular to our species.
So, according to the Greek way of thinking, all different various animals had a species being, an essence that defines that species as what it is, gives it its purpose.
Remember, we were talking about final causes earlier?
Yeah.
Telos.
purpose, aim of a species or an organism.
So Epimetheus forgets to give a purpose, a telos to man.
It means we're not born with any purpose that's designed, that's embedded in us the way that it is in the case of certain insects or any other non-human animals.
And therefore, we're left to define our own purpose through the development and use of technology.
So, the human is an existentially uncompleted being who necessarily has to complete himself through the use of technology.
This idea is at the heart of the myth of Prometheus, and it's very beautifully symbolized.
Where when Prometheus finds out that shit, my dumb brother, my forgetful brother, didn't give these creatures any purpose, any essence, Athena comes and helps out.
She has a special relationship with Prometheus, Athena.
He tried to seduce her at one point.
And Athena comes and helps out by giving man his soul in the form of a butterfly.
So what substitutes what, you know, for our lacking essence is a butterfly.
That's the soul of man.
Well, what's a butterfly the symbol of?
Metamorphosis.
The caterpillar becoming the butterfly.
Is this like Marshall McLuhan?
Does this tie into his idea of the electronic caterpillar?
I don't know.
Humanity, humans are basically creating this.
We are like the electronic caterpillar building technology into this.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes, it does.
Our purpose is to build this.
Yes, yes.
Yes, perfectly.
And so, you know, it's another way of saying that it's up to us what we make ourselves.
It's up to us.
We have the freedom of a butterfly and we have the metamorphic potential of the caterpillar.
And through technology, without which we cannot survive, without which we wouldn't even be human.
You know that pre human hominids evolved into us by using technology.
Fire made it easier to chew food.
And the shape of the human skull changed because of that, since we didn't need huge chomper jaws anymore.
So the very morphology of the Homo sapien was in the first place defined by a certain technological innovation.
So we're intrinsically technological beings with a.
Metamorphic potential that's unique in nature, and that means that our evolutionary horizon is open, we can decide what it is we want to become, which is very freeing but also incredibly dangerous.
DMT Laser Experiments00:07:42
What do you make of the stoned ape hypothesis that we ate a mushroom, which accounted for the extreme growth in our brain size?
Well, that's also techne, it is.
So, you know, Heidegger uses this word techne, which comes from ancient Greek, to express the essence of technology, and it means craft.
And cultivation of psychedelic substances is also craft.
So, yeah, it's a form of technology.
And undoubtedly, at various junctures, it contributed to the evolution of human consciousness.
And probably will continue to.
I mean, DMT, what, you know, we're talking about earlier, off the record.
Yeah.
About experiments where people are given DMT and they look at laser beams.
Yeah, yeah.
And they see the code of the matrix inside the laser beam.
Right.
Well, you know, if that starts to happen on a large enough scale, And it's considered in the context of all this data that we've discussed regarding the possibility we're living in a simulation.
Yeah.
That's certainly going to result in some kind of a mutation of human consciousness.
Grappling with that fact existentially is going to involve or require a further evolution of human consciousness.
Yeah.
That DMT study with Danny Goller did that.
He was just on here again recently.
And Andrew Gallimore did a review of it.
I think he's now working with. with Gallimore doing further studies of it.
I found out about it through reading Gallimore.
Yeah.
So Gallimore's doing the DMTX extended state DMT stuff.
And one of the things that Gallimore talks about is there's history, a history of people under the influence of psychedelic drugs seeing code and specific things.
And one of the things that he described in regards to that laser experiment where you do DMT and you shine the laser on the wall, you look at the laser and you see that code is that it's like the laser sort of acts like a microscope.
Like, first of all, when you're doing DMT, what it's doing is, in his view, Is it breaking down all these filters that we have in our brain?
Our brain is filtering out what we normally have every day to be able to eat, sleep, survive, and get through the day, right?
And when you take DMT, it breaks down all these filters.
So you're seeing maybe this code, maybe you're seeing more stuff that's really here that we can't normally see in a normal state.
And when you bring in a laser while you're in that state, it's like hyper focusing on one part of that.
And maybe that explains why we're seeing this specific little code that everyone, I think a vast majority of people who have done that exact DMT laser experiment have reported seeing the same exact code.
And the code looks like this type form, this Japanese text form that's called katakana, which is very similar to what's in the matrix dripping rain code, which is a human that was designed by humans.
So, how do you explain that what we're doing when we're going into this state and seeing this thing that, Must have been there before humans were here, right?
Is a human invention.
You know what else is really creepy about that?
Is that some people who've been inside these deep underground facilities where, whatever you want to call it, I don't know why we even call these things these days alien technology?
No, it's not really alien, off world technology.
No, they're coming from under the ocean.
It gets hard to, you know, even label these things, whatever.
They've seen weird shit, right?
Tech that's deeply classified in these underground facilities.
And they say that this exotic technology in some cases involves a script.
That, like on UFOs, there's a script printed in certain places.
Or they found there's this one case where a guy was shown a gauntlet, like a big glove, that had an information display on it.
And when he looked into it, the holographic display was showing these symbols.
They're the same symbols that people see on DMT in the laser beam.
This is the claim that's been made by people who've done DMT.
Yeah.
And who've also been in these classified facilities and seen this script imprinted on UFOs or on displays that they've recovered from inside UFOs.
Yeah.
And it's the same script.
So what does that tell you?
It seems to suggest that the people who manufactured that technology have long since cracked this code and they use it themselves as some kind of a symbol system.
Right.
Yeah.
Well, that's disturbing.
Yes.
By the way, speaking of lasers and laser beams, you know who invented those?
Was it really the Nazis?
They invented lasers for the sake of enriching uranium.
Steve, ask Chad GBT who invented the lasers.
That's probably going to give us a politically correct answer.
But I've read the history of this.
And it was done.
So look, the Germans.
Theodore Maimon.
First working laser in 1960 at Hughes Research Laboratories in Malibu, California.
Yeah, look up, he can do this in the background while we talk.
Yeah.
Laser isotope enrichment, the history of laser isotope enrichment.
Okay, so the first really functioning coherent lasers, as far as I understand, were invented by the Germans in the 19, I don't know, late 30s, early 40s, for the sake of enriching uranium.
And, you know, what we're told is that Werner Heisenberg, you know, the German physicist Werner Heisenberg, he wrote a great book called Physics and Philosophy.
He was a very deep thinker.
But what we're told in the official histories is that Heisenberg was running the atom bomb program for the Nazis and that they were using heavy water enrichment.
They were using, you know, what they're so worried about in Iran today.
Gas centrifuges to enrich uranium.
That's the official narrative, that this is the nature of the Nazi atom bomb program and that we sent some operatives from Norway or something to blow up their uranium plants and it ended their atom bomb program.
Well, there have been some alternative researchers like Joseph Farrell who are citing other more technical sources.
The name of this book escapes me.
It's a whole book on the German atom bomb program, which Farrell cites extensively.
And there's an argument that the Germans had a second parallel atom bomb program based on laser isotope enrichment.
And this was the reason why they invented lasers.
And these researchers point to two incidents that took place in 1944 where it appears that the Germans successfully tested an atom bomb.
One over the Baltic Sea, where there was this pilot who was flying, an Allied pilot, was flying across the Baltic Sea area.
And he saw this explosion, which involved all kinds of different rainbow colors inside of it.
And supposedly, this is a characteristic of nuclear explosions that very few people know about.
You have to actually have seen one.
To know that this happens, it's the fissile material like continuing to react inside the mushroom cloud and it produces a certain display of like multicolored lights.
Hidden Elite Mass Exploitation00:15:03
Okay.
We don't see it in any of those test footages.
Remember those old atom bomb tests?
Because it's all black and white footage.
Right.
But so he described seeing this inside this explosion and only a nuclear explosion could produce that.
Then there was another one at a place not all that far from Berlin.
I forget the name of the.
Small town that it was near, but it caused an EMP blackout of all the electricity and communications in Berlin for like, I don't know, 24 hours or something.
So, point being, you know, that's something very disturbing to consider that, like, if the Nazis had actually successfully tested nuclear weapons in 1944, why did they lose the war?
Right.
What is that about?
What is that about?
Yeah.
This, I mean, so.
Do you think it's possible that there is a civilization of humans or something that is here inhabiting this planet that we can't see or interact with?
Typically, I'm sure there's exceptions that would be analogous to like us compared to an uncontacted tribe living on an island.
That is so technologically advanced.
It's a bad analogy because the level of interference in our societies on their part is such that it's nothing like anthropologists trying to study an uncontacted tribe without disturbing it.
I mean, they're basically socially engineering our entire world.
Okay.
Okay.
So if you look through the history of religions, right, I think we talked about this in our first conversation.
I cover it at length in Closer Encounters and in Prometheus and Atlas.
Working from sources like, well, first of all, I mean, I talk comparative religion myself, so I've read the Bible in depth and read the Quran and various religious scriptures.
But also, you know, I've read Jacques Valet's works, Passport to Magonia, The Invisible College, an excellent book by William Bramley, which I can't mention enough times.
Everybody in the UFO circle should read this book, The Gods of Eden, William Bramley, okay?
Nobody wants to think about these things.
William Bramley.
Anyway, I don't want to repeat myself from the first show, but he started out studying war profiteering throughout the course of history.
And he came to the conclusion that the beings behind the UFO phenomenon have been socially engineering all of our cultures from the earliest that we have any historical records, and that they're responsible for all the major wars.
And basically, what's going on is mass exploitation of the human population by a hidden elite.
Looking at all this, you see that they've been not just interfering, they've been designing human societies going back thousands of years.
How does this fit into the simulation hypothesis?
Good fucking question.
Right?
Because there's more than one way you could interpret that.
And this goes back to your question of if you're a person who has all the security clearances and you know all the darkest secrets and you've had to internalize that as part of your worldview, what's it do to you?
Yeah.
Right?
Because one possibility.
Is that the designers of the simulation themselves?
That they're like the.
Okay, either like the architect or like the agent Smiths in the Matrix.
Right.
That's one possibility.
Okay.
But there's another possibility.
And by the way, I hope that one's wrong.
I hope they're not the designers of the simulation.
Because if you look at some of the fucked up shit that these entities have done, like for example, the cases in Brazil, nobody seems to like to talk about those these days.
Virginia?
No, no, no.
In the 1970s, in the Amazon basin in Brazil, These Nordic UFO pilots terrorized and mutilated the population.
They would burn them with lasers.
They would chase them through the forest.
They would kidnap people.
They left mutilated bodies.
There were people, I don't want to describe some of the things that were done to some of these people.
Doctors went in there and they were horrified.
Is there a name of this event?
I discuss it in Closer Encounters where I cite extensively.
You know, primary sources on it, including Jacques Valet, who wrote a foreword to a book about this.
I think it was called UFO Danger Zone in Brazil or something.
And Jacques Valet wrote the foreword to that.
Okay.
And yet he, I've never heard Valet in all these years bring up those cases again.
And I think it's because it conflicts with an implicit agenda.
Yeah, there you go.
Holy shit.
Forward by Jacques Valet.
Terror and death in Brazil.
And yes, it really was terror and death.
I mean, with utter contempt for these natives of the Brazilian backwater, these Nordics came in and treated them as less than slaves.
Almost as if they were engaging in sport, hunting these people and just like sadistically terrorizing themselves.
Sounds like some Westworld shit.
There was no constructive purpose.
You understand?
Like, it's not like they were abducting these people to experiment on them.
No, no, no.
They were just terrorizing the fuck out of these people coming up from out of the rivers in the Amazon basin and doing this to them.
And they were described very clearly by all the inhabitants there because the people down there, you know, mostly Indian DNA, you know, Amazonian Indian DNA.
And so they say, you know, el hombre blanco, you know, they were white people, blondes, white people.
Right.
They even thought maybe gringos were behind it.
Right.
But unless the US military had advanced so much, you know, from the 1950s until the 1970s, that we had fleets of UFOs underneath the Amazon rivers coming up, you know, and like, I don't buy it.
Right.
And besides, like I said, you see this all through human history.
It's in the record of every single religion.
From the Hindu scriptures, the Mahabharata and the Ramayana, and the wars between the Devas and the Asuras, and how they nuked and leveled whole cities, all the way to what's in the Bible, in the book of Ezekiel, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
It's all there, same beings.
Abraham deals with them.
And they're so beautiful that when they first show up, He's so impressed by them that he's like, wife, take care of these people.
Like, you know, they seem like they're very important.
Those aren't aliens.
And the same people go to Sodom to retrieve Lot, right?
Before God is going to destroy, before he's going to nuke Sodom.
And these guys are so attractive.
They're such beautiful men that these lechers come around the house of Lot and they all want to rape these guys.
And so, Lot, the great prophet, the chosen prophet of God, volunteers to give his daughter to be raped by these men instead of allowing them to be molested by the crowd that's amassed outside his house.
Anyway, point being, they were tall, beautiful people.
Okay.
Wow.
Those are not aliens, those are humans who are up to no good and have very advanced technology.
So, point being, I hope they're not the designers of the simulation.
There's another hypothesis that they're people who figured out they're in a simulation.
A long time ago.
Remember what we were saying about Mars?
Yeah.
And McMulligan was saying they're trying to find a way out.
No matter what they do, they can't find a way out.
And remember you said to me, I was talking about, you know, Brandenburg's study of how many nukes had to have been detonated in Cydonia.
And you're like, well, then the nukes destroyed the atmosphere, right?
Well, there's another possibility that this was the first version of something like the destruction of Atlantis, where these giant pyramids on Mars were data centers.
And the Martians started to experience this geophysical information catastrophe and they nuked their own servers trying to stop the thing as it was getting out of hand.
But, you know, they got to it too late.
Wow.
So, point being, the people behind the UFO phenomenon, and I belabor that point people behind the UFO phenomenon could be the first people who figured out we're in a simulation and it totally fucked their heads.
And as far as I can see it, they became very sadistic.
Now, one of the things Greer was explaining to me is that if there are people or organizations, private companies, aerospace, that have figured all this out, they hypothetically would be more powerful than any world government, maybe all the world government, maybe Russia, China, US combined.
Militarily wise, and that would explain.
I mean, he also goes on to say how like top J2 generals cannot get access to this stuff, meaning basically the highest levels of the US military can't even get clearance on this technology.
I mean, they're like holding it hostage from the US.
How do you suppose such a structure would have developed?
I would imagine it would have started with the United States and DARPA when after World War II.
Yeah, and how.
Through paperclip and through other stuff we were doing.
And it got so out of hand because obviously they wanted the government didn't want to have accountability over this stuff.
So that's why they put it in the private sector.
And basically, they figured it out to an extent where it maybe took off and got so powerful that they realized look, we don't need to fucking answer the US government anymore.
We control this stuff.
And maybe they're running around the world right now with impunity doing things that we have no idea what the fuck they're doing.
And maybe they're like, I think you made it, you described it in a way as if potentially these are the people that are waiting for China and Russia, China and Russia and the United States are like fish in a pond fighting, and they're waiting for them to get worn out and then just take a, like a cat, like a cat waiting for the fish.
The fighting fish.
Right, yeah.
Staats Sicherheitsdienst, National Security Agency.
It's a Nazi term.
It's a Nazi term.
It was imported into this country.
National Security Act of 1947 established the National Security Agency, the CIA, and basically the entire infrastructure of our deep state.
That's also when we changed the name of the Department of War to the Department of Defense.
Yeah.
Very cute.
So get this.
And we created the CIA.
Yeah.
So a lot of people talk about paperclip.
We brought thousands of Nazi scientists over here.
And people talk only about the physicists for some reason, the rocket scientists, which we'll come to them and the bizarre shit that was going on with them.
But there were also psychologists we brought here.
We brought biologists here.
We brought all kinds of people.
The psychologists who developed MKUltra eventually, starting with Project Bluebird in the 50s and became MKUltra in the 60s, Bluebird was worse.
They were experimenting on children.
These were Nazi psychologists who were brought over here to develop these behavioral sciences.
They had been doing these things in the concentration camps.
So, we bring all these thousands of Nazi scientists over here between 1945 and 1947, okay?
You know what else is happening at the same time that nobody seems to talk about?
You read the Spanish newspapers at the time, and they're saying bizarre shit that Otto Scorzeni, you know who he was?
Remind me.
So, Mussolini, so Italy fell before Germany, right?
Right.
Most of Italy, except for the Sallow Republic, which was in the north.
And Mussolini was arrested and he was taken, made prisoner on the island of Ponza.
The Nazis used psychics, remote viewers, to find Mussolini.
They pinpointed him.
By the way, the Nazis used to use this to track naval fleets all the time.
They would find the positions of destroyers and American naval ships using remote viewers.
Anyway, they used this to find Mussolini, the island he was held on.
And they sent this super commando, special forces leader, Otto Scorzeni, guy with a mustache and a real badass fencing.
Find a photo of him.
Yeah, creepy looking guy.
Yeah.
Otto Scorzani.
They sent him to retrieve Mussolini.
So there are these pictures where Mussolini has been freed.
He's been extracted by the Nazis and he's with Scorzani and Hitler.
He's been brought back to Reich headquarters, right?
They took care of their boy.
They found Mussolini, pulled him out.
Yeah, look at some of the ones with a.
Yeah, yeah.
Look at that giant fencing scar.
Yeah.
Now let me tell you a little bit about this guy.
So.
So, look, all these people were prosecuted in Nuremberg, right?
Yep.
Somehow this guy gets loose and he's in Spain from 1945 to 1947 under Franco.
So, remember, there was one fascist regime that survived the end of World War II.
Italy and Germany fell, but Spain survived.
Spain was a fascist regime that survived the end of World War II.
And moreover, as the mother country of the Spanish speaking world, The fascist regime of General Franco was connected to the fascist regime of Argentina.
And there was a pipeline between Spain and Argentina in terms of Nazi personnel and assets.
So this guy shows up, the Spanish newspapers are writing, between 45 and 47, and he's with Franco on the Mediterranean coast of Spain, and they're launching saucer shaped rockets.
They didn't know what to call these things at that point, they only knew what rockets were.
Saucer shaped rockets toward America.
What happens in 1947?
Nazi Saucer Rockets and Roswell00:15:24
Roswell.
Where is Roswell?
The only military base at that time housing nuclear weapons, the base from which Enola Gay flew to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Right.
Okay.
So here's something really disturbing about Roswell Corso's descriptions.
Exactly.
Corso's descriptions don't fit anything from an alien craft, man.
The guy was in charge.
As he had a foreign technology division of understanding foreign countries' technologies, right?
Right.
And what did he say was pulled out of the wreckage and then reverse engineered?
Velcro, night vision.
What else?
Kevlar?
Kevlar.
Come on, man.
Aliens coming here from another like star system are using like Velcro and Kevlar and night vision.
That's like their state of the art technology.
He talks about that.
This stuff.
There's a reason why nobody talks about it, Danny.
There's a reason why nobody talks about it.
Corso, how did Corso describe this stuff and where is it documented for people to read it?
Day after Roswell.
Oh, it's in Day After Roswell.
Yeah.
And he says Kevlar, night vision.
Now, Joseph Farrell wrote a great study of Roswell and other associated incidents in the context of Nazi psychological operations.
It's called Saucers, Swastikas, and Psyops.
By the way, I have big problems with it.
By the way, don't think I'm like you're trying to promote Joseph or something.
I spent a couple days with the guy.
I got big problems with him.
He's an Orthodox Christian, high up in the Orthodox Christian apparatus and so forth.
So, you know, Joseph Farrell's worldview at a deep level and mine couldn't be more opposed, right?
But I have to say he's done some very rigorous research.
And the stuff that Farrell.
Swastikas, saucers.
And psyops.
Squirzani's on the cover of that book, actually.
Yeah.
Wow.
And so Farrell is commenting on Corso and what Corso wrote in The After Roswell.
And he's saying, there's no way this is alien.
There's no way this is alien.
Nazi technology was anywhere between five to 10 years in advance of ours.
We know that.
We know that looking at the history of technological innovation, for example, in computers, the Nazis had very small transistors already in World War II.
It took us another five to 10 years to develop those.
IBM had a German subsidiary called Dehomag, it was the German branch of IBM.
The information was so compartmentalized, the German IBM was ahead of American IBM, the parent company, and they had transistors that were much smaller, right?
So you can look across all the different Fields of technology and see, like, for example, the Germans testing night vision goggles in the African desert in 1942.
They were like five to ten years ahead of us.
Yeah.
Then, when you look at the saucer technology itself, you know, electrogravitics and the saucer airframe.
Who were the brothers that were working on this stuff?
The A. Jacobson Brothers.
The Horton Brothers.
Okay.
So, when you read the Twining Memorandum, General Nathan Twining's memorandum about the About flying discs, as they called them in those days.
There was a fake version of that that was modified and it was leaked in the UFO community, like, I don't know, a couple decades ago.
And it changed a few sentences to make it out like Twining thought these were aliens.
The original Twining memorandum has since been excavated.
And where you read, you know, at the end, when he's drawing his conclusions and making recommendations, he says basically, This looks a lot like Nazi shit, and we really should find out where the Horton brothers are.
Okay.
So annie Jacobson talks about this a lot in her Area 51 book.
Yeah.
And I've asked a lot of people about it, and no one seems to buy into it.
But I know you're familiar with it.
Basically, the idea is that there was the evidence is very good.
Mengele.
Mengele surgically altered some children to go in that thing, and it was remote-controlled here.
Progeria children.
Progeria children.
Their heads get all swollen up, and they look old, even though they're they're, you know, neotenous looking, but they look old at the same time.
Their heads get all swollen.
And there was an EGG engineer who told Annie this.
And she goes, Why wouldn't you guys make this public if you found out that this was Russian, Stalin flown or Nazi stuff?
Like it would make them look terrible on the world stage.
And he said, The reason we didn't let it out is because we continued the research.
We continued the research.
Absolutely.
Right.
Absolutely.
So, where is this all coming?
The point of departure was our conversation about the deep state.
Yes.
If there's an entity, as Greer says, and here I agree with him, that's more powerful than.
All the governments of the world.
How did it start?
Where did it start?
It started here.
And it started here because, okay, here gets a little bit mind boggling again.
On the one hand, we've imported these thousands of Nazis and we're engaging them in, let's just say, highly ethically dubious projects, which requires what?
It requires a massive state security and classification apparatus to be put in place.
Right?
Which is unconstitutional, according to our Constitution.
Government of the people, by the people, for the people.
There was that thing, the Bill of Rights.
Right.
So, on the one hand, we're bringing all this technical expertise and the projects they're working on were things they were doing in concentration camps.
So, we need classification for that.
On the other hand, this saucer crashes and it looks weird.
We don't know what it is.
Maybe it's alien.
We don't know what.
But it's definitely a threat to national security.
And moreover, the thing crashed next to our only nuclear base at the time.
And it's got maybe some deformed children in it.
And it's got all this super advanced technology, but still stuff we can understand.
That we were already working on.
So, you also need security classification for that.
So, here we have the National Security Act of 1947, which effectively creates the deep state, right?
And, but let me, okay, so, all right, I'll finish this point and then I'll go back to talking about the saucer as an engineering design of where it came from.
This deep state was already so autonomous.
From the civilian government of the United States, including our Defense Department, that when von Braun's team was working on the early rockets, the adaptation of the V 2 into a ballistic missile in the 1950s in Texas,
the Pentagon officials found out that the Germans were taking classified information to the border and meeting with.
Nazi officials coming from Argentina and Chile and Paraguay, meeting them in border towns in Mexico, right on the Texas border, and giving them classified information from inside of our programs.
So they confronted the German scientists about this, right?
They were going to like chastise them, whatever.
I don't know.
What could they do?
Revoke their clearances?
Who's going to build this shit, right?
But they get on their case about it.
Guess what?
The next thing that happens is oops, the Germans misdirected their missiles and they landed in Mexico.
They shot some ballistic missiles into Mexico as a way to say to the Pentagon, don't fuck with us.
You fuck with us again, we'll start a war with Mexico.
So, already by the 1950s, they had their hands on the balls of the US government to that extent.
This is why you have Eisenhower coming out and making that statement as he leaves office, warning about the military industrial complex that's gotten out of hand and they're a threat to our democratic society, et cetera, because he knew this stuff.
And I'm convinced the main reason now, Kennedy made a lot of enemies for a lot of reasons, the Kennedy brothers did, because they were, you know, Engaged in prosecuting the mafia, and you know, there was the whole Cuban angle with the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
Yep, but I'm convinced that the main reason that JFK was killed is that Eisenhower handed this information off to him the UFO stuff, the whole deep state problem.
Yeah, and said to him, Listen, man, you have to get this under control because these people pose an existential risk to our constitution and our way of life.
Kennedy was going to shut them down, and even after he was executed.
His brother would have pursued the same policy, so they were both taken out.
I've heard RFK on record in interviews say that he believes that his father was killed by a Lockheed contractor, specifically a Lockheed contractor.
Now, why would a Lockheed contractor assassinate Robert Kennedy?
There's only one explanation you can come up with for that.
Whoa!
Now, this is the place to go back to the saucers, okay?
All right.
Lockheed Martin used to be called Martin Aircraft.
Yeah.
In 1953, there were all these stories that came out in mainstream news publications about how these aerospace companies, they were called aircraft companies in those days.
Aircraft companies have developed the G engine and they're about to roll off the assembly line, craft that can defy gravity and get you like from New York to Australia in an hour.
There were all these stories about this stuff.
And they quoted the chairman of Martin Aircraft, Lear, Convair.
Bunch of companies, a handful of companies.
And the only one of those that's still active in the defense industrial scene is Martin Aircraft, which became Lockheed.
Okay?
Okay.
And then in 19, by 1955 or so, the story disappears.
The story disappears.
And it's at the same time, between 53 and 55, where these chairmen of these aeronautical engineering companies are making these statements, that you have physicists holding conferences about.
Cracking gravity.
Right.
Okay.
Yep.
So the United States cracked gravity circa 1955.
Right.
Townsend Brown was also developing this polarization effect.
Bryce DeWitt, Lewis Witten.
Yes.
And this.
The other company that has some of this tech is Northrop, which designed the B 2 bomber.
Right.
Which some people say the B 2 is a reference to the Brown Byfield effect.
Right.
That can basically.
Augment the propulsion of an aircraft by lowering the effect of gravity on the aircraft.
Yeah, with ion wind.
Yes.
And so by 1955, they figured this shit out.
And then it went black.
Now, let me ask you something.
If we're looking at Kevlar, Velcro, night vision, lasers, transistors, and we see that in all these areas, Nazi Germany was about a decade ahead of us, and we cracked electrogravitics in 1955.
When did they crack it?
There are reports that, okay, so there was a think tank in Prague under the direction of General Hans Kamler.
It was a Nazi scientific working group.
And I think it was based in Prague because they were collaborating with the Italians on this.
The Italians were a junior partner and they wanted a country that was sort of nominally not Germany, right?
Basically under Nazi control.
And there are people who claim that Otto Scorzani.
Remember, auto scores in he came to the facility in Prague in 1944 toward the war's end, and he saw that the scientists working under General Combler had developed a circular disc shaped airframe that was tremendously aerodynamic in its performance, and it had a number of interesting features to it.
One is it had these vents.
That suction the boundary layer.
It's called suctioning the boundary layer, where air resistance develops around the edges of any airframe, like an airplane or anything that has sharp edges to it.
And so, first of all, by making a saucer shaped craft, you're already reducing air resistance.
Then they had suction vents that would suck in the boundary layer and redirect it, redirect that airflow into the propulsion system.
They also developed a kind of metal that was perforated.
They called it Luftschwamm.
flying foam.
And it was a special kind of metal that had lots of tiny holes in it that would also allow air to pass through.
It was a very light metal, which further reduced air resistance.
The same think tank, the Kamlerstab, Kamler staff in Prague, was working on this nine to 12 foot tall, acorn shaped or bell shaped reactor.
It was a Nazi bell.
Yes, it was a mercury thorium reactor whose purpose was to generate more energy than is put into it.
It was constantly powered by AC energy with big cables.
Intermittently shocked with direct current, and it would rotate, counter rotate drums filled with mercury and thorium isotope inside of the shell of this device.
And what they realized in the Kamlerstab was we could take this thing and put it inside the saucer.
Originally, the saucers were powered by rotating jets.
And so we could take this magnificently aerodynamic airframe.
And take this reactor and put it inside it as a power source.
And there's your electrogravitic saucer, invented in Nazi Germany, 1944 45.
We cracked the same engineering problems and propulsion issues in 1955.
So, what does that tell you about all the rest of the stuff that was discovered in Roswell?
It fits the pattern of the Nazis cracking this a decade earlier than we were there, scientifically and technologically.
And by the time we were there in 55, this deep state run by Nazis already had its hand around the balls of the civilian government of the United States and had already set up the national security state to sequester this information.
Ford, Morgan, and the Reich00:07:39
And this is kind of similar to the idea of that specter organization in the Bond.
Yeah, I mean, Ian Fleming was an intelligence operative at a very high level.
Yeah.
He was involved in.
Surveilling Martin Bormann.
Ian Fleming was involved in the operation of tracking and surveilling Martin Bormann, who was Hitler's chief financier.
He was the money man of the Reich.
And Bormann died three times.
There's three different accounts of this guy's death.
Faking his death?
Yeah.
I mean, twice wasn't enough.
There's three different accounts of this guy's death, right?
We have to be convinced he's dead.
Except that from his, you know, Beyond the grave, he writes a check in his own name through Chase Manhattan Bank in Argentina in 1975.
So Martin Bormann is still alive in 1975, writing checks for huge amounts through Chase, by the way, a bank whose logo is a swastika.
Pull it up.
Take a good look at the Chase logo.
Put Chase logo swastika.
Take a look at that.
And who founded Chase?
JP Morgan.
JP Morgan was business partners with the Dulles brothers.
Holy shit.
It is a freaking swastika.
Yes.
Keep going down.
There's better depictions.
Was there like an older version of it that was even more similar?
Because, I mean, that's pretty close.
Yeah, it's a good question.
The Ford Motor Company also had a swastika in its logo before it became politically incorrect.
Really?
Supporter of the Nazis.
Ford loved the Nazis.
Ford was building shit for them even after the war, right?
Yes.
He was building tanks.
That we were blowing up on the battlefield for the Nazis.
Ford was a virulent anti-Semite.
He put copies of the protocols of the elders of Zion in the early Ford cars that were manufactured.
You could like find it in the glove compartment.
Type in Ford logo swastika.
Let's see what that comes up with.
So anyway, the earliest Ford logo swastika.
Look at that.
Can you punch in?
Yeah, Ford Motor Company.
No, that's not it.
No, that's it.
No, that is a Ford Motor Company.
Ford Motor Company.
That was their logo?
Yes, that's their logo.
I'm telling you, the guy, listen, find some more of it.
Ford, I found better ones of it before.
I've put them in other interviews I've done.
If you can find the drawing, that's.
No, that's not it, dude.
Anyway, look.
Yeah.
He was such a rabid anti Semite.
You know what the protocols of the elders of Zion is?
It was a document about how Jews have a conspiracy to control the whole world.
Right, right, right.
He took copies of that, mass printed them, and would put them in the glove compartments of the cars that he sold to people just so he could make sure everybody could read it.
Big supporter of Hitler.
So, okay, but this is putting our finger on something important about this, which I was trying to get at with Chase.
JP Morgan, based in New York, was business partners with Morgan Jr., JP Morgan Jr.
Yeah.
Was business partners with the Dulles brothers.
Alan Dulles becomes the head of the CIA and Rockefeller.
And these three together, Morgan, the Dulles brothers, and Rockefeller, Funded the rise of Nazi Germany from America.
Right.
Okay.
And they funded Mussolini too.
So, point being, there was already an American power base for the Nazis before the war.
You see?
So, they had the connections already to fall back on, including people at the level of Rockefeller and Morgan to help them move money.
Why is Chase clearing a check written by Martin Bormann, who died three times?
Why in 1975 are they still clearing checks written by this guy?
Yeah.
From Argentina.
And who was the guy Rudolf Hess?
So in 1938, I think it was 38, 37, 38, something like that.
The Germans engaged in this massive expedition to Antarctica.
It's been debated why they went down there.
What were they really going down there for?
I mean, the simplest explanation is they had a world class navy and they wanted to build a naval base in Antarctica.
Antarctica.
But they brought a bunch of scientists with them and did excavations.
Actually, one of the craziest things that they did is they flew over the ice sheet going up the, you know, trans Antarctic mountains are huge.
They're like the Himalayas.
They flew along the side of these mountains and they dropped swastika flags from out of airplanes to claim the territory.
So today in Antarctica, if you go to trans Antarctic mountains, there are frozen swastika flags all along the mountainside claiming the territory for Nazi Germany.
Anyway, Rudolf Hess was sent down there, Antarctic, Deutsche Antarctic Expedition.
And he was doing what?
What was his title?
Good question.
I mean, he was a military man.
High level military man.
But good question.
What was he doing?
Because here's what happens comes back from Antarctica, this Hess, right?
Takes an unauthorized flight from Germany into Britain while the British are at war with the Germans already.
So they're already like.
I don't know if the Blitz had started yet, the bombing of London, but they were already at war with the British, right?
So Hess gets in a plane, flies by himself to Britain, lands in a field, and he's arrested.
And he says, Take me to Winston Churchill.
Take me to Winston Churchill.
Two years earlier, he was in Antarctica.
Churchill refuses to see Hess.
And then they come back to Hess and say, Churchill won't see you.
He's like, Well, I'm here to engage with like 30 members of your parliament.
Who are interested in resolving our differences.
Now, what historians won't tell you is that Hitler made like three or four peace offerings to the British before he declared war on them.
Not just peace offerings, he made offers to collaborate with the British Royal Navy and become basically military allies.
They turned down all these offers.
So Hess says, I'm here to make another offer to your people in the House of Lords.
So he had the numbers already, right?
There was a list of British politicians who this guy knew would be sympathetic.
So when Churchill turns him down, so what do the British do?
Churchill doesn't let him talk to these parliamentarians.
They throw Hess in prison and he stays there for decades and decades.
And then after the Berlin Wall comes down, you know, once Germany becomes democratic, reunification of Germany, he was transplanted to a German prison, Hess.
And no one was allowed to talk to him ever again for the rest of his life until he died.
Why did he go to Britain two years after being in Antarctica?
What was he going to tell the British about Antarctica?
Atlantis and Subglacial Antarctica00:13:33
What might have been found there?
You know, what do you think?
And why did he not talk to anybody for the rest of his life?
Right?
So it's interesting.
What's your theory?
Well, if you.
If you believe the empirical case that's been made for Atlantis in Antarctica, which Graham Hancock made in Fingerprints of the Gods, his first book, working off of the research of Charles Hapgood and Rand Flemeth.
And Colin Wilson also, at one point, found this theory compelling when he wrote one of his books on Atlantis that the only landmass that fits Plato's description is Antarctica.
Plato describes an island.
The size of Libya and Asia combined, of Asia and Libya combined.
In the Greek world, in that time, in Plato's time, that was a description for a territory roughly the size of the first Persian Empire.
The first Persian Empire is about the size of the continental United States, a little larger than that.
Well, that's the size of Antarctica.
Moreover, Plato said that Atlantis was in the world ocean.
Well, what does that mean, the world ocean?
He said it was outside the Pillars of Hercules, which means the Strait of Gibraltar, but he didn't say it was in what's now the Atlantic.
You know, people get this ass backwards.
The Atlantic is named after Atlantis.
It's named after Atlas, not the other way around.
It's not like Atlantis had to be in the Atlantic because it's the Atlantic.
So people named, in other words, the Atlantic the Atlantic because they imagined Atlantis had been there.
Okay.
Okay.
Named after the Titan Atlas.
Right.
So, but all what Plato says is outside the Pillars of Hercules, outside the Strait of Gibraltar, in the world ocean.
Well, what's the world ocean?
There is one.
There's a world ocean.
It's where the Atlantic, the Pacific, and the Indian Ocean all meet in a single body of water in the shoreline of Antarctica.
How would they get into a war with Athens all the way down there?
They had conquered and were controlling the entire planet.
So the Greeks think they're all so important.
Like Atlantis came here and fucked with us.
Atlantis fucked with everybody.
Okay, it was a global civilization.
It's a civilization that used those 1,300 ton stones at Baalbek.
A global technical civilization.
So, first of all, the only landmass that fits the size is Antarctica.
Second, it's in the right place, it's in the world ocean.
Third, Plato said that when you go to Atlantis, you can come from one side of the world.
like South Africa and cross over Atlantis and you're on the other side of the world.
Where else fits that bill than Antarctica?
Where you go across Antarctica and you can go from South Africa to South America.
Yeah.
Okay.
Moreover, if you look at the research of Charles Hapgood, who was a, actually he was a historian, but he started to develop interesting geophysical theories and he worked on contract for the CIA for a while.
He was a history professor, but he had classified clearances and he worked with the CIA.
And he developed this theory of earth crustal slippage that when you look at the flash frozen mammoths in Siberia who are frozen with the food undigested in their stomachs.
Yes.
And certain other things, it looks like the crust of the earth slipped by several thousand miles suddenly.
And this is why we have stories from various tribes who say that the stars fell.
The idea of this is called what is it?
It's called like a geomagnetic.
Pole flip or something like that.
Earth crustal slippage is the technical term for this particular theory.
Earth crustal slippage, Charles Hapgood.
And if that theory is correct, and that's how the mammoths were flash frozen in Siberia, and the food that we found undigested, frozen in their stomachs, is food of a temperate climate.
Okay.
So it means that Siberia used to have a temperate climate.
It was suddenly pulled toward the polar region, the North Polar region.
Where the Earth's outer shell can move as a whole over the mantle, like a skin of an orange.
It happens because during ice ages, the Earth gets top heavy from all the ice that's weighing down the crust.
Right.
So it causes it to slip at a certain point.
And the fact that the food in the mammoth stomachs is food from a temperate climate means that Siberia was suddenly pulled into the northern polar region.
If you look at Antarctica, Right?
Yeah.
And you look at how Siberia slipped, it means as Siberia slipped suddenly into the northern polar region, Antarctica slipped suddenly by several thousand miles into the southern polar region.
So about two thirds of Antarctica would have been where Argentina is today.
Right.
Argentina is a great place.
Right.
Great agriculture, great wine, great livestock.
Right.
Atlantis would have been very habitable if Atlantis were Antarctica before the crustal slippage.
So, Hess, what did Hess know?
Also, to linger on Atlantis for a minute, according to this long chain of transmission with Solon and all this stuff, Atlantis would have been how long ago again?
Okay.
I mean, Plato's dates line up with a lot of other evidence that points to about 10,500 BC or 12,000 years ago.
12,000 years ago.
And this is also when people hypothesize the younger, driest cosmic impact theory would have happened too, which a lot of people think that the mammoth being frozen was from a cosmic impact that.
Basically, blacked out the sky.
That's an alternative hypothesis.
In any case, Antarctica fits Plato's description of Atlantis best.
And so, if you were to ask me what Hess, on the Nazis in general, found in Antarctica, they found Atlantis.
And they were obsessed with Atlantis.
The entire Nazi elite, which came from out of the occult Vril Society and the Thule Gesellschaft.
The Thule is a German equivalent of Atlantis, Ultima Thule.
It's a landmass at the north of the world.
A vast landmass of the north of the world.
Now, we don't have any landmass of the north of the world.
But what is the north of the world?
The magnetic poles shift like every, I forget what is 23,000 years or something like that.
No, it's slipping like literally.
What is it?
We talked about it on that Jimmy Corsetti podcast.
It's migrating right now.
It's migrating like miles per year.
Which means a reversal is about to happen again.
Okay.
So when the Germanic people preserved this ancient myth that there was this ultima thula, a huge continent at the north of the world.
It's probably dating from a time when the poles were reversed.
Antarctica was the northern polar region and vice versa, magnetically.
So the Nazis were obsessed with finding Thule or Atlantis.
Yeah.
And they may have hit Jackpot circa 1938.
But then wouldn't there be some sort of evidence of it if the Nazis were there back then?
Like, wouldn't some of the stuff, like, there is?
Like, would they find pyramids?
What did they find there?
Well, there's evidence the Nazis were there.
I mean, look up Operation High Jump.
1946, Admiral Byrd went down there with a whole fleet.
And they were supposed to be on an expedition that lasted months.
And they ran into something that devastated the fleet.
And they retreated very quickly.
And on his way back to the United States, they stopped at some port in Chile, I think.
And Byrd made this bizarre statement about how.
We have to prepare in the next world war to encounter aircraft that can cross from pole to pole with amazing speed.
And so it looks like they went down there maybe because they knew the Nazis were down there, tried to clear them out or something, and they had the shit beaten out of them.
46.
What do you make of the argument that Plato was full of shit and he wasn't a historian?
He was just making up hypothetical allegories.
Like the allegory of the cave?
Like, was Atlantis just another philosophical allegory like the cave?
Okay, let me answer in two ways.
Okay.
My first answer is that we could, it could be that Plato never existed.
We can completely disregard Plato.
The evidence for Atlantis is overwhelming.
Don't call it Atlantis.
By the way, I'm pretty sure the Atlanteans didn't call it Atlantis.
They probably had some other name for it, right?
So, other than Plato, what is the most compelling evidence?
There's so much compelling evidence.
I mean, first of all, the megalithic structures that have inexplicable engineering skill behind them.
In Egypt?
On every continent.
It's everywhere.
Look at Tiwanaku in Bolivia, the Calasasia at Tiwanaku in Bolivia, some of the older sites in Mexico, in the Yucatan.
All of these sites exhibit the same enigmatic hype.
Sacsayhuaman is another one, Oleantatambo, the walls at Sacsayhuaman and Oleantatambo.
Are made of insanely gigantic megalithic blocks, which intersect with the blocks next to them, sometimes at 12 different points of intersection.
Yeah.
Which means that either they had a way to liquefy stone and mold it as they were putting stones together, or something even more mind boggling the stones were all pre cut like jigsaw puzzle pieces and then put in exactly the right place.
Well, either of those are insane from an engineering perspective.
I mean, even we won't do that.
We won't.
Maybe we can just barely now, but no one in our world would ever think to try to do something like that.
And by the way, that type of building, it turns out it's extremely earthquake resistant.
Yes, it is.
Because it wobbles and then locks back into place.
Yeah, also the land, the ground that it was built on, something about it, the way they built the foundations of it, the stone is like super flexible and malleable.
Yeah, and some of these blocks, like the ones at Baalbek, 1,200 ton stones, 19 cranes can't lift those things.
19 industrial cranes, who did that?
Yeah.
All right, so look.
I mean, it's written in stone.
Whether you want to call it Atlantis, like I agree, or I should call it.
I agree, that's evidence of a super advanced civilization that was here before we have any kind of explanation for it.
By the way, other cultures have other names for it.
Not all cultures call it Atlantis.
You find this in almost every civilization in the world that there's a myth about a super civilization that existed in antiquity and that the people who lived there were demigods, that they were godlike people who then disseminated knowledge to other primitive cultures in the world.
You find it, this basic myth, in the Mayans, you find it in the Egyptians, you find it.
In the Middle East, in Iranian civilization, which is something I'm very familiar with, I wrote a whole tome on the history of Iran.
In ancient Iranian culture, they called this place Aryanam Vaija, which means the seed cradle of the Aryans, meaning where the Aryan race came from.
That's what they say.
And they say it was a place, this is a very interesting detail.
So you have all these flood myths around the world.
And the flood myths are connected to the myth of the destruction of the super civilization in all these cultures, including Mayan culture, Egyptian culture.
The one exception is Iran, where the Iran, Iran, we talked about this first time, first interview.
Iran, the name means Aryan.
It's a Middle Persian form of the ancient Persian Aryan or Ariana.
The Iranian ancient mythology is the only one that says the super civilization wasn't destroyed by a flood.
It says our homeland froze.
Our homeland was an island at the center of the world, it was the central continent of the world, which is what Antarctica looks like.
If you.
During the ice age, it would have been massive.
Yeah, you make a globe centered on Antarctica.
You take a globe and you flip it.
So you're looking right at Antarctica.
It looks like the continent at the center of the world.
If you live there and you're mapping the world from your perspective.
So they say it was a continent at the center of the world, and all of a sudden it froze over.
See if you can find a graphic depiction of what Antarctica would have looked like during the ice age, the last ice age.
You're talking about the subglacial topography of Antarctica.
Yes, that would be the technical way of putting it.
So, no, that's what you want to look at.
Look up subglacial topography, Antarctica.
They have found maps like the Orontius Phineas map and the Piri Reis map, which show Antarctica underneath the ice.
No one in recorded history ought to have been able to map that landmass subglacially.
Look how big that shit is.
Psychokinetically Integrated Pilots00:09:57
Yeah.
Well, it's larger than the continental United States.
That's insane.
Antarctica.
And that on the left, that's.
That connects down to South America?
Yes.
The amount of the closest point to any land is in Argentina.
Think that's a coincidence?
Do you think it's a coincidence when the Nazis went to Argentina that where they went was San Carlos de Bariloche?
That's Patagonia, it's the southernmost point of Argentina that's close to Antarctica.
Very convenient.
How long do you think Hitler lived after the war?
He lived into the 1960s and he died of Parkinson's related.
You know, people in Argentina describe having seen him with very bad Parkinson's, he had lost the mustache, right?
He lived, I think, a very miserable life because, and this is an important little anecdote because it says a lot about Spectre.
Yeah.
Or as they called it themselves, Die Spinne.
Their name for it was the spider, Die Spinne, the spider, the post war Nazi international, largely based in the United States and Argentina.
So, an anecdote about the Hitler thing is, when you look at Martin Bormann and his financial machinations in Latin America in the 1950s to the 70s.
And you look at Otto Scorzini and how he was operating at an international level in that same time period.
Yeah.
It seems that if Hitler survived decades past the end of the war, which there's evidence he did, it wasn't doing anything important.
Right.
I think the guy was put out to pasture.
I think basically they said to him, you know, thank you very much, Herr Hitler, but please paint your sunsets.
You know, go back.
You wanted to be a painter right right, enjoy painting your sunsets.
We've got everything under control, sir.
Yes, we've got everything under control.
And eventually Eva Braun even left him, you know.
And so I think the guy lived a pretty desperate and miserable life, having been given the cold shoulder by the people who were actually in charge of what they were conceiving of as a coming Fourth Reich, People like Bormann, Scorzany, younger, more shrewd, competent people, and people with a more dynamic vision.
I'll give you an example, which really is a mindfuck.
There's a lot of evidence that Scorzany played a huge role after the end of the war in tactical operations for these people.
Remember, Scorzany was the guy who thought of using saucers in the 50s as a part of a psyop against America.
Same Otto Scorzini, fencing scar guy, died in 1975.
Shortly before he died in the early 70s, he worked with Mossad.
It's been proven he had a very good relationship with the state of Israel.
Otto Scorzini.
So, how is it that Israel is sending Mossad and military intelligence operatives to retrieve Adolf Eichmann from South America to then stand trial in Jerusalem?
Right.
But they're working with Scorzini in the early 70s?
What did Eichmann do to get on the shit list?
Yeah, it's such a mindfuck, the history of this stuff and how useful certain people were, like Scorzani to other.
Yeah, I think Eichmann was prosecuted because he ceased to be useful.
Right.
It probably pissed off the wrong guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they said, okay, give him to the Israelis.
And what do you make of this recent stuff that Greer's talking about with this psychic, psionic, stranger things type stuff where they're kidnapping people that are like left handed?
Young from other countries, bringing them here to and giving them drugs, he said.
Yeah.
Dopaminergic drugs to summon these things and crash them.
So they're trying to hide.
So, first of all, why?
If these things are so advanced, how the fuck are they crashing them with psychic abilities?
And second of all, who are these people doing, conducting these operations in your mind?
Okay, that's a complex question, right?
And multi part question.
First of all, how are they crashing these things with psychic abilities?
Well, consider this if the pilot is part of the guidance system of a UFO and the pilot is integrated into the airframe psychokinetically, if you fuck with the pilot's mind, you're going to crash the airframe.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
So you had a powerful enough psychic.
Get into the head of a UFO pilot.
Right.
Okay.
You can bring a saucer down.
And who is the pilot in your mind?
One of these Nordics, you know, in some cases with a bunch of these gray robots on board who handle the abductees.
The Nordics don't like to handle the abductees because you see this in the Travis Walton case.
Travis Walton case, they sent the robots to deal with him.
Right.
Then he beat up the robots.
Big strapping guy that he was, beat up the robots, right?
And he went out into the hallway.
And then the Nordics were like, man, we got to deal with this guy.
We got to deal really seriously.
We have to deal with this guy now.
So it's like they use the grays and then Whitley Strieber.
So Whitley Strieber, look, he's very clear that the people, the people who put the implant in were people, European looking people.
Two guys and a woman who came into his house.
One stayed outside or something.
Two of them came in and they did this thing, put the implant in his ear.
People.
Yeah.
There's a Nordics.
They use the grays to handle terrified abductees because who wants to do that job?
What is the connection between, and you're the one who told me about this, by the way?
Before I conducted that Whitley Strieber podcast, you gave me a whole history of Whitley Strieber over like two hours on the phone, which was fascinating.
And I don't know anybody who has been gone so deep on the history of Whitley.
I read his work like 20 years ago, something like that.
It's been a very long time, but I, you know, when I read it, I really read it.
Like I read most things.
And when I brought it up, you mentioned to me.
Told me to bring up with Whitley about his history in Mexico, what he was, what was going on with him in Mexico.
And when I asked him that on the podcast, he said, he like straightened up and he's like, I don't want to talk about that.
Well, yeah, because I mean, it was horrific child abuse managed by Nazis in Mexico.
They had a huge presence in Mexico.
Remember what I was saying earlier?
Yeah.
Is that the paperclip rocket scientists would come to the border towns between Texas and Mexico and do data drops, handing classified information to their, not to their, Fellow Nazis who operated more freely in Mexico and throughout Latin America.
So, this was some sort of program to induce trauma in kids?
Pre MKUltra.
Pre MKUltra.
So, MKUltra was like the light, the Bud Light version.
They had shit before MKUltra that was even worse.
Bluebird and other things before that that are basically extensions of the experiments on children that were done in concentration camps.
That's what it is.
And how did that, what did that psychological traumatic experience that he went through in Mexico, what was it specifically?
What were they doing to him?
Okay, now I heard this very clearly.
He has this Dreamland radio program, TV streamer.
It's been going on for, I don't know, 25 years or something like that.
I heard him describe this in detail.
So I don't know whether he wants to now not talk about it or say something, you know, it was another way, but I remember very clearly what he described.
Mm hmm.
And he did this in more than one conversation.
Once might have been a monologue, and once was in an interview with somebody.
And he basically said they were taken to a mansion in Mexico that was run by the same people as this Nazi doctor in Texas associated with Randolph Air Force Base.
Right.
And he said they were put in these children were put in situations where they were shown mutilated bodies and horrific sounds were played to them in the dark and they were made to believe that they had killed these people.
Mm hmm.
Okay.
Put in cages, shown mutilated body parts, exposed to chainsaws, made to hold chainsaws, like just horrific shit.
Right.
That's basically meant to produce extreme dissociation and a fragmentation of the psyche.
Okay.
And how did this, how does this connect to all his experiences with like having sex with aliens?
One, dissociation, because you don't want to deal with a traumatic situation.
And second, absorption, extreme attention.
And you would think like these are opposite things, but there's a way to induce dissociation more or less simultaneously with absorption.
And the state of mind that that produces is extremely psi conducive.
Wow.
So you might perceive things that other people don't perceive, and you might be able to.
Unconsciously exercise abilities that other people that are only latent in most people.
Okay.
So that's what it is.
It's a catalyzing of dissociation and absorption through the body.
So these beings that he was experiencing were real.
Here's one of my problems with Whitley's account.
Dissociation and Psi Abilities00:04:17
Okay.
Is that he says that while one of these grays was on top of him, and I believe this was in his cabin.
Right.
He says this grays on top of him.
I won't get into the details, but he said he, in the moments where he could even focus on anything but her, he sees that there's all these people standing around in the cabin room.
And one of them is a CIA officer who he knew and recognized.
Okay.
I mean, does that mean that there's some agreement between some of the Grays and the CIA?
Maybe.
Or does it mean that he was given drugs and there was some elaborately staged scenario?
Right, where he was made to believe that it was an encounter.
Yeah, I don't know.
Take your pick.
In any case, it doesn't look good, it doesn't look good.
No, it does not look good.
Crazy, Jason Giorgiani.
Thanks again for coming, man.
That was a wild follow up to our first podcast.
I didn't think it'd get any crazier.
It was indeed, Danny.
It was.
Tell people about your new book, where they can find it, where they can get in touch with you, all that good stuff.
Good.
So, the cover of my new book is still up there.
Well, at least part of the cover.
It's called Metapolemos.
Metapolemos, it's Überkampf in German, sort of super war.
And it refers to a metaphysical, ontological idea, destructive departure and worldview warfare, which is kind of my reverse engineering of the basic concept behind the breakaway civilization.
My reverse engineering, the concept that motivates their activities.
And that's a huge breakthrough in understanding the nature of psychological warfare.
So, but it's basically, as I said at the outset, no, no, no, that's philosophy of the future.
And the reason that there's a similarity in cover is that I intend metaphors.
Call Satanion.
No, no, no.
Satanion is my last book.
Oh.
Which one is this?
I write at a rather rapid pace.
So, Satanion came out in November.
Okay.
We're recording now in February.
February.
Yep.
End of February.
End of February.
So, my latest book, the one that you have the cover up there on, part of the cover, Is going to be out within, let's say, two, three weeks.
Okay.
And the reason that the, yeah, if you can put the whole cover up there, it'd be good.
I emailed it to you, Steve.
Anyway, the reason the cover has a similarity to the graphics for Philosophy of the Future is that it's meant to be a kind of companion volume to this.
In Philosophy of the Future, I present an overview of my entire philosophical project in terms of my original concepts.
And in Meta Polemos, I give an executive summary of my whole project, but in terms of the different domains of philosophy.
So my thoughts.
Yeah, there it is.
My thoughts in the domain of ontology, my epistemology, my view on ethics, aesthetics, and political philosophy.
So it's divided up into those domains and gives you either an introductory overview or a kind of executive summary of my philosophical project.
The last thing I want to say about this book is that I've included in this book, which is now, I think, my 14th book.
Journals which I wrote 20 years ago.
So, back when I was, you know, reading Whitley Strieber, 25 years ago, whatever, 20 years ago.
Hanging out with Jack Sarfati.
I saw a photo.
He sent me a photo of you guys when you were young.
That was when I, exactly.
That's when I met Jack Sarfati.
Yeah, that's right.
So, back in those days, for about three years, I kept a journal.
It was a black notebook.
And it's really the matrix of my philosophical thought.
It's the, you know, the substrate from out of which my ideas emerge, the genesis of my.
Career as a philosopher is in those notebooks.
And I've included a pretty large selection of the entries from in there, which is a very dangerous and revealing thing to do.
And it'll give people a lot of insight into what motivated my philosophical project.
Gorgeous.
Saturn on Devil Horns00:00:32
What's up with Saturn on top of the devil horns?
That's a UFO, but it's interesting.
Oh, it's a UFO.
But it's interesting that it read as Saturn.
It looks more like Saturn to me.
Well, that's interesting because Saturn is Kronos.
And the Nazis called the Bell Project Project Kronos or Project Time.