Sean Esbjörn-Hargens and guests dissect alien abduction evidence, linking Chris Bledsoe's stabilized orb footage to Johns Hopkins DMT research and the "wilderness effect." They analyze 35 theories of non-human intelligences, contrasting CIA remote viewing successes with Roswell conspiracy claims like Annie Jacobson's Soviet craft narrative. The discussion highlights how trauma and transcendence coexist in experiences, arguing that high strangeness signals truth while mainstream science struggles with materialistic reductionism. Ultimately, a new five-year project on "super experiencers" aims to map brain patterns behind these anomalous perceptions, suggesting a broader cosmology is essential for genuine disclosure. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, WAV2VEC2_ASR_BASE_960H, sat-12l-sm, script v26.04.01, and large-v3-turbo
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Witnessing Orbs and Beings00:06:12
All right, Sean, S. Bjorn Hoggins, thanks for coming, man.
You bet.
Excited to see where we go.
Yeah, I don't know where we're going to go, but it should be interesting.
Yeah, so I was introduced to you through Chris Bledsoe and Dave Broadwell.
That's his last name.
All right.
Yeah, how did you originally get in touch with those guys and how did you meet Chris?
Well, Dave was bringing together a group of people for an event at the Monroe Institute.
And wanting to focus on UAPs, and Chris was going to be part of that.
And so Dave reached out, came across my information because I'm doing a lot of work kind of at the intersection of academics and UAP studies, and with a focus on experiencers and anomalous experiences.
What were you guys doing at the Monroe Institute?
Dave wanted to do something that brought together a bunch of different modalities of contact.
to see what would happen if we had a group of people who all were oriented towards the phenomenon, had experiences with the phenomenon, had a background with the phenomenon.
And so we, throughout each day, we're there like four or five days.
We, you know, did the HemiSeq technology, you know, with the headsets in the boxes at Monroe.
Like the Faraday cages?
No, they have, when you sleep at night, you have these, there's kind of these, you know, They just often call them the boxes because you kind of get in there and you pull a curtain so it's totally dark and you put on headsets that they have the hemi-sync technology coming through in order to have out-of-body experiences or different types of contact experiences.
So we were doing that each day, also during the middle of the day, like after lunch and stuff.
And then we were doing different types of psi practices, different types of CE5 types of activities.
Each night we were doing Skywatch.
And so the idea was like, what happens when you bring together, you know, a dozen people who, you know, have collective intention around making contact and then, you know, throwing in someone like Chris Bledsoe, who has a real strong kind of history of being able to connect with and bring forth, you know, the orbs and the other types of phenomenon.
And yeah, it was amazing.
It was a great event and quite fascinating.
So yeah, so I met Chris there and we were able to connect, you know, both during the activities, but also, you know, during the meals and other moments during the. the time there.
What do you think about the orbs that Chris is able to summon?
What do you think those things are?
I think there are a number of different things.
I think the way I orient towards it is they are forms of non-human intelligence.
And I think what's fascinating about orbs when you look at and study how orbs are experienced, you know, both currently and also historically, they seem to be a form of energy that allows UFOs to manifest, to allow beings to manifest.
You know, people witness beings becoming orbs, orbs becoming beings.
People witness orbs becoming UFOs, UFOs becoming orbs.
So it seems that orbs are more like a state of energy that different types of phenomenon are able to transform into and out of, right?
So I think orbs generally aren't just one thing.
They could be a lot of things.
So they could be a lot of different types of intelligences.
They could be a lot of different types of technology.
So I think it's still pretty open as to how to make sense of these things.
Yeah.
Have you ever heard of anyone else having any kind of experiences like that or being able to anyone in history witnessing something that's so clearly the same thing as what Chris is seeing?
Yeah, there's another woman.
I'm forgetting her name.
I want to say her name's Dorothy.
Oh, Dorothy Iza.
Yeah.
And, you know, she also did a lot of video and recording back in the day, you know, with kind of an old funky camera.
And, you know, it's a very similar kind of story to Chris's.
You know, though Chris has a lot of additional phenomena that's associated with his experiences.
Well, it's interesting that other people are able to witness it alongside him.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, it's not just him who can see it.
You can go out, like I went out to the beach with him, me and Steven and I, and we were able to see these things after staring at the sky for two hours.
And I said this before, I was like, you know, I've never seen these orbs in my life, but at the same time, I've never stared at the sky and looked for them for two hours.
Right.
You know, sometimes what he films, they're really far away.
Sometimes they're much closer.
Sometimes they're in his backyard.
You know, sometimes they're over the horizon.
So, you know, there's a lot of different.
types, you know, and I think he mentioned on your show the, you know, like, you know, 2,700 clips of film in one year, you know, so there's a, you know, and some of them are less convincing than others, but when you look at the total set of, you know, video clips, it's, it definitely makes you consider that something else is going on.
Yesterday he posted one is on his Instagram that I've never seen before.
He posted one.
So all the ones that he's posted, Stephen, if you could pull up his Instagram, they all look like the ones that we saw, right?
They all are filmed on those night vision monocular that he films everything with.
And you can see, you know, he's clearly filming it with his hand.
It's moving around.
You can see the grain in the background.
But the one he posted yesterday is very different.
It looks like it's filmed on something else and it's completely stabilized.
Like, look at that.
There's no movement.
It's like, is he filming someone on a tripod or something?
Or maybe he got a new camera?
No.
And this is the most up close. detailed shot I've ever seen of one of these things.
Yeah, and see there it blips out, you know, I think there's zero grain in that.
It's crazy.
John Hopkins DMT Study00:06:45
You know, so the orbs, I think, are best understood as an energy state of some phenomena that's choosing to be in that energy state, whether it's a craft, whether it's a being, whether it's something else, and they come in, go out of that energy state.
You know, in Stephen Greer's documentary, Close Encounters Of The Fifth Kind, there's a lot of different video shots that they've collected over the years that are showcased in that film.
You know things like this and a lot of other things that are also even kind of more provocative.
You know.
So there is a lot of interesting film footage of stuff that you know makes you wonder what are we dealing with?
What initially got you into this stuff and to studying this stuff?
And and you have a, what is your phd in?
My phd is in integrative meta theories, so looking at which is what in English?
Yeah, theories that take a big picture of reality.
Try and explain reality by not reducing it to any one aspect of reality.
And so theories that kind of embrace psychological dimensions, cultural dimensions, behavioral dimensions, and systemic dimensions.
And, you know, so how do we include insight from lots of different disciplines and domains in order to better understand the complexity of reality around us?
So it's basically like an interdisciplinary approach to big picture thinking.
So think of, you know, toes, theories of everything, you know, coming out of the physics world, but they kind of tend to orient towards just matter and physics and gravitational forces and so forth.
These kinds of theories of everything include religion, psychology, sociology, all the different domains of human knowledge to try and integrate the core elements to see what can we really say about reality.
Interesting.
So philosophy, cosmology, and consciousness are the three areas I spend a lot of time studying and teaching in.
One of the interesting things to me is I had this guy in here.
Andrew Gallimore, Dr. Andrew Gallimore, and he is a neuroscientist studying in Tokyo and he's doing research.
It's called DMT X, the name of his project, where he puts people on extended state DMT, where he gives them an IV drip of DMT for like hours at a time and he tries to study the DMT realm and what's going on, the entities that people see in that realm.
Exactly.
Yeah, I know his work.
Yeah, it's fascinating work.
And, you know, I have a feeling a lot of this stuff has something to do with. the pineal gland and something inside the mind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that definitely seems to be like an, you know, a bridge point between our consciousness and these other realms.
You know, and a lot of the esoteric traditions talk about the pineal gland and the pituitary gland.
Sometimes there's debates in the esoteric literature about which of those two is kind of the primary kind of, you know, entry point into these other realms, but they both seem to be involved.
And, you know, one of the things that's been interesting in, like John Hopkins recently did a study in the last couple of years. looking at DMT entities and trying to understand the nature of the encounters.
So we're at a point in history now where a big medical school like John Hopkins is actually funding research looking at the kinds of entities that are encountered in DMT states.
So it's really fascinating to see.
Really?
Yeah.
When did this start?
You can pull it up.
It's on the internet.
Yeah, it's a study they've been doing for a number of years and folks like David Luke are involved.
Yeah, and so they're trying to, you know, they're using it more in therapeutic contexts as well, right?
With the whole psychedelic revolution, the legalization of marijuana, you see our society warming up to the reality of other states of consciousness.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, yeah.
So there's a famous study that came out, was published a couple years ago that, you know, if you, maybe if you did a search also for DMT entities in John Hopkins, but yeah, look, 55 million in funding.
So, so we're basically, we're moving from kind of a monophasic orientation to reality to a polyphasic meaning that currently we generally think reality is just based on what we can see with our five senses and we take a rational approach.
So it's kind of like monophasic meaning, one state, one state of consciousness is privileged as the primary state from which to know reality.
So waking rational, scientific consciousness is what's kind of ruled the day for the last 600 years.
We're shifting to a polyphasic mode where multiple states of consciousness are being recognized as having value and access to different aspects of reality.
And this being one example with John Hopkins research kind of looking into that.
So we're seeing this shift in kind of public perception around what's real and the nature of what's real.
It has to be the case that some people have a higher perception than others or have heightened sensory input and output than other people.
And one of the best ways that that was ever put to me is my friend Paul Rosalie who spent like the last 20 years living in the Amazon rainforest.
He went from living in Brooklyn to living in the Amazon.
He explained that once he got down there, after being down there for a couple days, it was like being disconnected from society and all the technology and all the computers and phones and TV screens.
Your senses and your perception is raised when you're in this environment of nature, disconnected from modern technology.
Totally.
Part of my background is I've been a wilderness guide leading outdoor trips at different phases of my life.
And in eco-psychology, there's this whole notion of the wilderness effect, which basically says that when you take a group of people out into nature for an extended period, it usually takes them around five days to kind of detox from kind of civilization.
And then you see a transition in them, you know, kind of moving into the second week of the trip where what you just described starts to happen, right?
Where, you know, they orient differently.
They kind of are in touch with their sleep cycle and their body and their food in a different way.
And, you know, I remember when I was younger in college, I was an assistant leader to a trip and we went to Utah Canyonlands.
And the trip leader, right as we were getting ready to, you know, leave the van, you know, for two weeks, he put a bandana on the ground.
And he said, okay, just one last kind of, you know, activity.
I think you guys are going to like this.
Precognitive Experiences Explained00:06:55
He says, you know, take off your watches, put your watch in the bandana and then I'll tell you what's going to happen next.
So we all do that.
And then once they're all in the bandana, he walks over, he ties it up.
unlocks the van, puts it in the van, shuts the van and says, all right, let's go.
We're all like, what?
And then I realized, you know, over the next, you know, few days, I didn't have my watch, right?
And I used to say, oh, it's four o'clock.
I'm hungry, right?
Or, oh, it's eight o'clock.
I should get up, you know?
So I noticed that I tended to refer to the watch to know how I felt or where I was at in my daily cycle.
But when he took the watch away, this process that you described started to happen more readily in this trip, right?
So I started to look at different reference points for knowledge and understanding.
Like, oh, check in with my actual stomach to see if I'm hungry.
You know, like notice, am I tired or not tired?
Should I sleep or get up, right?
You know, so I think there is a lot to say about this kind of process that your friend described.
And this is a big reason why I got into studying the phenomenon, because I was really fascinated.
My background in part is in philosophy of science and kind of what makes valid knowledge and how do we understand what's real.
And I was very intrigued by the many stories of individuals who, let's say there's three folks out in the evening on the back of a tailgate, you know, having a beer and talking and looking at the sky, and they have a UFO encounter.
And two of them see it.
The third person doesn't see it.
But the two people who do see it think it's really close.
One person sees it as being kind of a classic saucer shape.
The other person sees it more as like an orb.
And so you get these three conflicting reports.
One person says, I didn't see anything.
Two people say we did see something, but they don't agree necessarily on the specifics.
And we generally in our society would use that to say, oh, we just dismiss it because there's no agreement.
Clearly, like people are making things up.
They had a beer, whatever.
But I started to sense, like, wait, I think these people actually did see something.
And so why did that one guy not see anything?
And then why did those two people see something different, but they both saw something?
And that led me into thinking about this point you're making.
with respect to senses and inner senses and different modes of sensing and perceiving.
And, you know, because my background is in consciousness studies and kind of the esoteric and contemplative traditions, I knew that there are vast literatures that describe our subtle bodies and our subtle senses.
And so I started looking at that literature to try and understand how is it we might, different people might be seeing different things, right?
Because you also have a dynamic where some people will report that they see fairy beans.
And other people report they see angels on a semi-regular basis.
And other people report they see extraterrestrials.
Or you have someone like Stephen Greer says, I've never encountered a negative ET in my life.
They're all positive.
And then you have other people who have abduction experiences.
So there's a wide range of experiences being encountered.
And then you have someone like Chris Bledsoe, who I call a super experiencer, who's kind of seen and experienced a full range of phenomena.
So I kept asking myself, why are some people seeing one thing, one kind of thing?
and other people seeing a lot of different things.
So like, why does one person only see ghosts in their life and another person sees extraterrestrials, Bigfoot, poltergeist activity, and so forth?
And it appears that a lot of it has to do with our subtle bodies and our subtle senses.
How many people have you studied that have experienced these different types of phenomena?
About four years ago, when I kind of came out of the UFO closet and started talking more about my own experiences and using my background in integrative meta theories, to look at the phenomenon, I started running a course, an online course for three months on what I call exo studies, right?
Like an integral approach to the phenomenon.
And initially, I started the course because I wanted a platform to talk about how we might think about these phenomenon from an integrative perspective.
A bunch of people signed up and, you know, like 30, 40 people signed up.
And what happened in that first course was people were more interested in sharing their experiences.
And I was a little surprised by this because I just was wanting to kind of have more of an intellectual discussion.
But because I created a safe space to look at this phenomenon from a lot of different angles without privileging one side or one interpretation over another, people felt it was safe to share their own experiences.
And what I started to discover in that course and subsequent courses is a lot of people are having these experiences.
And so I would say over the last five years, I've been in direct conversation with probably 500 people who have a wide range of experiences and they usually don't talk about it.
And I also started to discover that a lot of my friends who I'd known for 20, 30 years had these experiences and they had never talked about it to me or anyone else.
So I realized there's a big taboo that prevents people from talking about it.
Part of it's because they self-doubt and they even questioned what they saw.
But when you start to create a safe place to explore and talk about this and you kind of are considering different theories that might help explain it.
then people generally have a lot to say about it.
And I feel that these experiences are much more ubiquitous than what kind of general perception is.
You said you had your own experiences?
Yeah.
What kind of experiences?
I like to joke that I've been micro-dosing weird for about 30 years.
And by that, I'm referring to the fact that I've had a lot of different experiences, like kind of 30 different types of experiences.
But they're often just like little glimpses.
Like I had the experience of seeing a ghost in a friend's house.
Turned out it was her mother.
But I've never seen a ghost before or since.
I've had precognitive experiences.
I had a really intense download experience a couple years ago where like a whole kind of understanding came through and it took me months to kind of unpack it and I built these 3D models based on it.
I've had encounters with different types of intelligences, not in kind of the classic kind of, you know, physical eyes seeing something, but different types of experiences that lead me to believe that I'm having some kind of interaction with a non-human intelligence.
When you say download, what do you mean specifically?
What was downloaded?
Intense Download Experience00:05:46
There's a personality system called the Enneagram that Gurdjieff, a Russian mystic in the early 1900s, kind of made popular.
And then it came over to the U.S. in the 80s.
And businesses use it today to understand nine different personality types of individuals.
And I've taught that system in graduate courses for many years.
And, you know, it's a very amazing system that kind of looks at nine different major types of personalities and kind of, you know, what their main fears are and what their core orientation or strategy to dealing with challenges in their life are.
So I had a background in this system.
And the download was essentially this experience.
I was flying home on a plane from Brazil.
I was doing some consulting work there.
And I just started kind of having like all this information in my head around the system.
And the fact that this system is actually, well, at first I didn't know where it was headed, but I had, I got this impulse to start playing with the different triangle combinations in the system because it's a nine point kind of chart.
And so there's different triangles you can make between the different numbers, like the seven, the nine, and the two.
And there's different harmonics connected to those combinations.
So I ended up having this intense impulse.
To start mapping this out.
So I started um, making these little triangles with the different numbers, and I and I created there's like 27 possible combinations right, because you have, you know, nine times um and so, and then I started taping them together and I started like trying to figure out, and it was all this deep impulse, like I and my family was joking about right, you know what's the guy's name on Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, where he's making the devil's tower out of mashed potatoes, you know, it's just kind of this like intense.
Like i'm staying up, i'd do my work during the day, the family would go to sleep And then I would, you know, start building these geometric models, right?
Up until about midnight.
And it turned out they created these complex platonic forms, right?
Like octahedrons, essentially kind of this mega octahedron.
But anyway, so in this like three month process, I was also just getting information that seemed connected to galactic sources, that seemed connected to potentially archangels, you know, so like it was really kind of odd and confusing.
Is this something that you had thought about before?
No.
That was the whole thing about it being a download was I knew nothing about sacred geometry.
I knew nothing about all these things that were kind of coming through.
And there was this impulse.
And it was like I was working on it and working on it.
And then at a certain point late at night, when I got to a place where I knew I was close, I knew I was really close to kind of where this was headed.
And I finally made this model.
And I have pictures of them.
I can pull them up probably.
And then once that model was there on the table, when I finished it and I stood back, all of a sudden I was like, I just had this thing released in me.
It was like, okay, that's it.
I did it.
And it was like this knowing that that's what all this was about was to create that particular geometric structure.
And it was like almost like I was released from this obsessive compulsive desire to try and create it.
So it's like it was in me and my job was to like get it out.
And so, and I you know, I was pretty confused by this whole situation.
And so I talked with a number of psychics to ask them kind of what do you think's going on?
Can you give me like any insight?
Psychics.
Yeah.
So like people, you know, seers, people with kind of intuitive knowledge, just, you know, I was like, hey, you know, help me out.
Like what's, what's, what's this about?
What's going on?
And, you know, they all confirmed in their own way that like, yeah, like this is like what we'd call download.
Like you were given some information and then.
your job is in a sense to kind of like bring it out.
And so, so I've been working on a whole book related to that geometric object.
Did this stuff come to you at a specific time of day?
Was it, did you have to follow any sort of like creative process to sort of get this stuff to come to you?
Or was it just coming to you randomly?
It, it seemed to start on that plane trip home for whatever reason.
And, and it, And it just kept occurring.
Like there was like, it was like this impulse where I didn't have like a vision, like a geometric vision of something I was trying to work towards.
It was more like this info.
And I would, it was like I would get a little clue like, okay, make triangles.
Okay.
I make a bunch of triangles with all the numbers.
Okay.
Now try and connect them.
Like, is there a pattern that connects them?
Okay.
So it's like I was getting these like intuitive hits on kind of step by step what to do.
And maybe that was just a creative process.
totally within my own kind of psyche.
It didn't feel like that.
It felt like something else was going on.
And people I talked to who seemed trustworthy and insightful about these things confirmed, you know, from their perspective that, yeah, there was likely an interaction happening between me and, you know, other sources of information or non-human intelligences, right?
Navigating Contact Protocols00:02:06
I think that's what makes this whole domain so kind of sketchy and confusing because it's not linear.
It's not clear.
It's not like, oh, boom, here it is.
I mean, in Chris's situation, it's sometimes more clear than it is for a lot of us other folks, where it's like we're kind of grabbing straws in the dark and trying to make sense of this.
It's very, it's like a minefield trying to navigate this topic because there's so many grifters that are involved in it.
And when you, and especially when you start talking about psychics, I mean, there's so many psychics that are so full of shit.
It's unbelievable.
So, so yeah, it's really hard to navigate like what's real and what's not.
But I mean, what you're describing sounds a lot like.
Rosicrucianism right, which has been a topic that has come up on this podcast a lot recently um which uh, Diana talked Diana Sulka talks about in her book where some of these um Space Force rocket engineers practice these protocols where they like don't drink caffeine and they go out in the sunlight and they try to like tap into some sort of extra, extra perception or some sort of intelligence.
that is not perceivable.
Yeah.
Well, the esoteric traditions are full of those protocols.
Yeah.
Right.
And there are people, you know, like Tyler D and others, and, you know, and Jacques Valais connected to, you know, Rosicrucianism, you know, as was Heineck, you know, so they both have links into that particular tradition.
A lot of people kind of discover or develop their own protocols kind of intuitively, but there are lots of traditions that basically train you to make contact.
Right.
You know, so like Grant Cameron has a book on contact modalities, but these kind of contact modalities, I think, are.
kind of go even deeper because they're really about these rituals, these daily and weekly rituals you go through.
And they can be simple, just like getting up at the same time a certain way, journaling.
They don't have to be weird and esoteric, but there's like a process that you put your awareness in your body.
Daily Rituals for Awareness00:03:11
Usually your body's involved, right?
You know, like not having caffeine or running every day.
It's like the body is some sort of, you can treat your body as an antenna.
Yeah.
And so these traditions have these protocols.
And from my understanding and kind of my working hypothesis, is these protocols activate different subtle bodies.
We have multiple subtle bodies and we have different types of inner senses connected to different subtle bodies.
And so different protocols activate different bodies and senses.
And then based on that, you'll have access or contact to certain types of energies and or intelligences.
Now, is this something that you've noticed with all the people that you've spoken with with your course that these people have been practicing?
Or is it even something that you practice yourself like purposefully?
Yeah, I practice myself purposely in this kind of context, working out of the Theosophical tradition.
What I've noticed is that a lot of people do practice these kinds of protocols themselves.
Some of them have had traumatic experiences, so like near death experiences, medical emergency, car accidents.
And that seems to create what I refer to as a separation event, where their subtle body gets separated from the physical body.
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Kids and Past Lives00:03:57
And they have an experience and then they kind of are revived or they come back and then their kind of their subtle body kind of comes back into their physical body.
And thereafter, they start having psychic experiences.
They start having experiences of non-human intelligences.
They start having healing capacities.
And so I started to notice like, okay, wait a second.
In the experiencer literature, people who report having encounters with the anomalous, there's a very strong pattern that that people will have a near-death or traumatic experience and they basically describe an out-of-body experience, and then after that they'll start talking about how, all of a sudden, they have psychic abilities or healing abilities or they start seeing shadow beings.
And so I started to notice like wait, in the esoteric traditions they give you training methods to separate your bodies consciously and then they describe that after you do that, you start having these kinds of experiences.
So it's like okay, so there's an intentional way to do this through the protocols and the practices, Or there's an accidental way that this happens through accidents, medical emergencies, and so forth.
And then there seems to be some people who just karmically, for lack of a better term, start to have these experiences at certain points in their life.
And then sometimes they report that it seems related to their past lives and the fact that they develop these capacities through protocols in past lives.
And then in this current life, it's kind of like this latent ability that just gets kind of activated at some point.
So there's like karmic, accidental, and intentional. examples of people gaining access to different subtle bodies and their associated senses and then having a wide range of experiences as a result.
There also seems to be some sort of connection.
I don't know if you know anything that could speak to this at all, but there seems to be like younger kids or younger people have more of a higher access to some other perception or see things more.
Like even if you dig deep into UFOs, the history, The history of UFO sightings, it seems to happen more and more around schools where there's young kids who witness them.
Have you noticed any sort of connection or something like that within the human body where the younger somebody is, the more they're able to access something?
Yeah, I think a couple of things are going on.
One is they just haven't been enculturated into a scientific materialist worldview as much as they will be in subsequent years.
I think part of it is what I've just been describing around the subtle bodies.
Young kids kind of have more access to their subtle bodies and their subtle bodies aren't as kind of fully kind of trapped in the physical body, if you will.
There's more fluidity in access to their different subtle bodies.
And so they'll have more of these experiences.
And as they kind of, in a sense, you can think of it as they get older, the fluidity of access to the subtle bodies reduces and it gets kind of those subtle bodies get more and more kind of integrated into the physical system.
And then they get overly identified with the physical system.
And so there's not as much access to it unless an accident occurs that like kind of rips the subtle body system out of the physical body or they start taking up protocols or they, you know, have some kind of karmic dynamic going on.
A lot of experiencers will talk about they had experiences when they were young up until like 10, 11, 12.
Then it goes dormant in part because there's usually an experience of them sharing some experience with friends and the friends doubting them or laughing.
And so they kind of learn, you know, at that point, like, oh, wait.
Not everyone else is having these experiences, so I should be careful with what I say and who I say something to.
Then they kind of shut it down, and then it kind of pops back up, usually in college in their mid-20s.
And then they kind of have to come to terms with the fact of, oh, yeah, this used to happen when I was a kid and now it's happening again.
Physical Evidence and Government00:15:18
And why is that?
And so those capacities kind of reemerge later in life, sometimes through an event, you know, sometimes just like through reading a book, you know, so it just kind of depends.
What do you make of all of these people within intelligence and the military and NASA coming to Chris Bledsoe's house and being fascinated with him and becoming friends with him and studying him?
Yeah, I think they know a lot more than what we might imagine.
You know, if you look at NASA, just as an example, I think the majority, if not all, the kind of original set of astronauts were like 33-degree Masons, right?
So, you know, and that's the highest level you can be in the Masonic, you know, system.
And at that level, you've been doing protocols for a long time, and you have experiences and encounters with a lot of these types of phenomenon.
What astronauts were 33-degree Masons?
Most of them.
I think almost all the early ones.
Like, for example, who's one of them?
Well, I don't know if Edgar Mitchell was.
It'd be interesting to look and see if he was a Mason.
But if you just do a search on astronauts and 33-degree Mason, you should get a list of a lot of the early ones.
I think even some of the things they left on the moon where there were some Masonic symbols that were part of that.
What is this?
Among the stars, Freemason astronauts, Freemasons on the moon, a secret mission.
Can you zoom in on that a little, Steve?
Yeah.
What's this website?
Oh, this is like a Freemason website.
The moon isn't a bad place.
Anyways, it certainly deserves a short visit.
This is what Neil Armstrong told journalists in the press conference after his return to Earth, but humanity paid a high price for this brief visit in resources and even human lives.
Three American astronauts of the Apollo 1 project burned alive a.
Burned alive a month before the planned flight.
Armstrong himself miraculously survived when he had to eject from the height of only 60 meters during training.
This is just a history lesson.
Supreme Council.
I don't know.
Just kind of like going over the.
Here, let me type in mace.
Yeah, didn't.
There we go.
Given how many free maces there were in NASA's astronaut squad, it's quite logical to open a special lodge for them.
All right.
But the point being that the intelligence community, many of the people involved in that have been involved in systems and traditions of these kinds of protocols.
And so it's not surprising to me that they would be interested in Chris for the kinds of experiences he's having.
And, you know, and so it raises a lot of interesting questions like, why is that?
Are you familiar with the story of Paul Benowitz?
Yeah.
No.
Tragic.
It's, it's, um, It's a real eye-opener, especially when you look at everything that's happening right now in the media with UFOs and within the government and the military and everything that's being disclosed to us publicly.
You know, for people who don't know, Paul Benowitz was a UFO, a ufologist, right?
He lived in, I think it was Nevada, across the street from a test range or an Air Force base where he was seeing these UFOs that were hovering above this mountain.
And he was filming them.
And I guess the Air Force Base caught wind of it and they sent a counterintelligence officer to go pay a visit to see what he knew, see if he had any footage or photos or whatever that could compromise what, you know, see if it could compromise national security.
Anyways, this guy's name was Richard Doty.
And he was basically, he went to meet Paul, saw the footage he had, and he saw that Benowitz believed these were UFOs.
When in fact, this was during the development of the B 2 bomber, I believe.
This was right smack dab in the middle of the Cold War.
And instead of telling him the truth, he said, maybe these are UFOs.
Maybe you need to pursue this further.
So he knew that Benowitz was very tied into the whole UFO community around there.
And this was during the Cold War.
So we knew that there were Soviet moles embedded in the UFO community.
So what they did was they used Benowitz as a conduit of disinformation into the whole UFO community.
So they could sort of divert them away from some of the real projects that were going on.
Long story short, Benowitz was.
Put into a mental hospital, and you know, he went to his grave thinking that this was something that it wasn't.
Not saying that UFOs aren't real, but you know, this was a very clear, you know, historical example of strategic deception, yeah.
And that really, really opened my eyes.
So, like, what do you take from the military and the Pentagon all saying that this is something that we need to pay attention to?
Non human intelligence, and we don't know what these things are.
You know, there's so many layers to this, it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around.
And the fact that they're paying so much attention to him, right?
Are they telling him the truth?
Are they trying to lead him in a certain direction?
I don't know.
Yeah, it seems that kind of what's at stake is the nature of reality and our understanding of the nature of reality.
And so, It's you want to have the best map of reality possible, right?
And so it's there's so many implications for economics, for politics, for education, for society.
The stakes are really high.
And, you know, and I think this topic, the implications of it are, I mean, literally like earth shattering, right?
And there's there's a lot of money and power at stake.
And and that's not to say that.
The people involved in the intelligence community are all bad actors.
I think it's a complex landscape of people trying to navigate their sense of how best to deal with the fact that our view of reality, kind of the mainstream narrative of what's real and what's happening, is just part of a much larger set of considerations.
And that we actually live in what I call a wild cosmos that's heavily populated with a wide range of different types of intelligences.
And I think part of what's interesting about the UFO topic is Jeffrey Kreipel kind of refers to it as this wastebasket problem where like every kind of paranormal, you know, experience gets thrown into this big bucket called the phenomenon, right?
It's like we even refer to it as the phenomenon.
It's like, well, what is the phenomenon?
Well, the phenomenon is like refers to like everything, all these different possibilities.
And so we've had like kind of 600 years of ascendancy of a particular rational, scientific, materialistic reductionist. view of the nature of reality.
And there's a lot of data points that no longer fit into that.
And so the implications are pretty big.
And so like Alex Wentz's work on national sovereignty and how the UFO topic is a direct threat to national sovereignty, right?
He's a socio-political scientist, I think in Ohio.
But he wrote a really famous article that was published in a peer-reviewed article in a political science journal that basically, you know, this was like a number of years ago.
And it's still their number one downloaded article.
And he has a chapter at the back of Leslie Kane's book, UFOs, where he's kind of laying out this argument that the national state is existentially threatened by this topic.
So when you read that and you start to appreciate how and why our government or aspects of our government would be very interested in this topic, and it's often not for the same reasons like the conspiracy theorists often run with.
true or it's worth considering.
But it seems that there's a lot of other layers to just kind of nationality and the economics.
And it's like, and I have some colleagues who have been doing this study on what are the implications of disclosure.
And they have this 70 page report at cosmicconnectors.com that they've just finished.
They've been like working on it for most of a year.
And they identify 44 implications of disclosure.
Like if President Biden came forward, and did a televised event and said, there are non-human intelligences that have been visiting and interacting with us on this planet, you know, or something to that effect.
What would be the implications of that?
They identified 44, right?
And so the point that I'm making here is that the implications of this topic are so far-reaching, right?
And whether you believe just 10 of those 44 or 20 of those 44, right?
Like it affects almost everything, right?
And so why wouldn't the CIA and NASA, and you know, everyone else, be you know, at least certain people within those organizations be very interested in this topic.
Well, don't you think it depends on what the disclosure is?
Like, what are they disclosing specifically?
Are they saying that these are ETs coming from Zeta reticuli, or are these things that exist like in a like here with us, but in another dimension or in another like DMT elves that people can just see on a regular basis?
Because Would it have a difference?
Would the implications change?
A little bit.
But the way this study was done was just around Biden or the president.
Saying that an alien landed on the White House lawn.
Or them just saying, acknowledging a non-human presence.
Not even getting into the details around, is it flesh and blood?
Is it interdimensional?
Is it ultra-terrestrial?
Meaning like they're here and have been living here for a long time and we just haven't seen them.
And this is the other thing.
It's like part of my study of this phenomena using my integral approach.
is I've identified over 35 different theories about who are they and what are they.
There's the time traveler hypothesis, the crypto terrestrial, the ultra terrestrial, the extraterrestrial, the sociological hypothesis.
There's all these different theories people have.
When I map those out and I look at what are the different variables that they're highlighting, like where are they from, what's the kind of consciousness they have, what kind of bodies do they have, what's their intention, when I look at eight different variables about what's being described and I look at the three or four possibilities of like, oh, They're on this planet currently or they're from other planets or they're interdimensional.
When I kind of map out all the variables, there's like 25 variables.
And what's interesting is these theories, these 35 different theories that have emerged over the last two decades, essentially when you add them all together, they're accounting for these 25 different possibilities.
So in other words, what seems to be happening is every conceivable combination of who they are is represented in kind of this growing list of who they might be.
And it seems that actually all of them are potentially true in some sense, or at least a majority of them are true.
Interesting.
You know, so that there are ultra-terrestrials, there are um crypto terrestrials, there are extraterrestrials, there are interdimensionals, like all of this seems to be happening right, and it's kind of this pandora's box, and this is partly why some people have certain experiences with some of those and other people have other experiences with.
You know different sets right and, and then you kind of end up arguing, well, what who's right?
Well actually, I think the cosmos is so diverse and creative there's a good chance we're likely interacting with all of those different possibilities.
Well, I mean, when it comes to an individual's perception of something that happened, or an individual's experience, if they believe something, I mean you can't deny that, but you can't say that there's extraterrestrials.
There's absolutely.
There's no evidence right, we have zero evidence that there's any sort of life from outside the earth.
Yes, and no, um.
It's interesting because you, you see this, these positions like there's no evidence and there's a lot of evidence right and, and you have this back and forth, there is a lot of evidence um, is there a lot of scientific evidence?
Um no, scientific evidence is a higher bar And yes, like there's still, things need to be done to meet that standard.
If we talk about legal evidence, there's plenty of evidence that would satisfy, you know, definitions of evidence in a legal court of law, right?
Can you give an example?
Well, you know, like witness testimony.
You know, so in a scientific context, it doesn't hold a lot of water.
In a legal context, it can hold a lot of water, you know, and so you can convict someone, you know, without, a weapon, you know, without the murder weapon, you know, based on witness testimony and circumstantial evidence and a lot of other things, right?
If you took the case of are there ETs, flesh and blood ETs, to the court, presented all the evidence, you should win.
There's enough evidence to get an affirmative conviction that that's the case.
If you take it to a scientific lab, you're going to have a hard time, you know, meeting the standards of scientific veracity.
So part of what's going on is we have we have different views of what counts as real and what counts as evidence.
There's well, for evidence, if you want to prove something exists, you have to have some sort of physical evidence of it.
Right.
There's a lot of physical evidence with a phenomenon, right?
So like you take abductees, people who have experiences of being abducted.
And so there's no smoking gun.
So I think this is part of your point.
You're pointing out there's no smoking gun.
I'm saying you're right.
There isn't a smoking gun.
We don't have that yet unless Gary Nolan and his team are able to get the government to roll out one of the crafts that we have and hang our X, Y, and Z.
So we're waiting for the smoking gun.
But we don't need the smoking gun to be able to look at all the other evidence and use scientific methodologies and logical methods of deduction and induction to arrive at a very probable conclusion. based on that evidence, just as like we would in a court of law.
Remote Viewing Coordinates00:07:47
So there's archaeological evidence, there's sociological evidence, there's lots of experiencer reports, there is physical evidence, like the burns in the grass that Chris Bledsoe showed.
Even Travis Walton, when they went and they studied the tree growth of the rings where that incident occurred, and there was an anomaly with how the trees that were closer to where the event occurred grew in a different rate than the other trees farther out.
Because of radiation, right?
Yeah, that's the assumption.
There have been implants, there's scars, there's body marks, there's scratches on cars.
There's a lot of physical evidence, but it's not a smoking gun.
But we should be careful not to dismiss all that physical evidence just because it's not a smoking gun.
But when you combine it with all the other elements, it's very suggestive.
Very, very suggestive.
So, out of all of the different hypotheses or all the different examples of what these different intelligences could be, was there any sort of underlying consistency between all of them or any kind of like common denominator across all of them?
How many of them do you say there were?
Like 40?
There's like 35.
35 different theories.
They are all over the board.
You know, like some it's like ancient aliens or some it's, you know, it's us from the future, right?
Right, right, right.
It's like some it's like, they're from other star systems.
No, they're from other dimensions.
Like, oh, you know, they're, you know, so there's a lot of variety, you know, but it's interesting that kind of in the course of human imagination, we've come up with all the possibilities, all the combinations are represented in that list of 37, right?
So you have an approach like SETI that says, you know, like, you know, there are probably, you know, life on other planets, but it's very far away and we're looking for radio signals and, you know, We're trying to like, you know, kind of tune in to their channel and they're not coming up with, there's like nothing has come out of the SETI project basically over the last, you know, 40 plus years with a lot of funding.
And so it's interesting.
You compare that with like kind of ufology, which has a lot of craziness in it.
But when you pull away a lot of that craziness, there's still, there's a lot of evidence, right?
You know, like you line up, you get a lot of Chris Bledsoe's in the room, you know, and it's like, or you go and hang out with them, you know, and you, You have multi-witness reports.
You have lots of multi-witness reports.
So there is quite a case to be made.
And again, I think for me, it often comes back down to different perceptions based on different subtle bodies, based on different subtle senses associated with those bodies.
And because we still tend to privilege our five senses and our physical body, and we want physical evidence that matches our vision and our hearing.
that we tend to have a very narrow view of what is evidence, right?
And so what does a broader but still very scientific and rigorous view of evidence look like that's able to include and compare experiencer reports, able to understand how the brain works in relationship to this phenomenon, right?
So like, you know, like Gary's research on the basal ganglia and, you know, how there seems to be this hyperconnectivity, right?
So one could look at that to say, well, okay, there's this hyper connectivity, so people are just better at projecting or imagining these phenomenon.
Or you could say, no, that's an antenna that actually allows them to perceive the phenomenon.
So the same data point could be used to argue for or against the phenomenon.
But then when you couple it with a lot of this other kind of evidence, then – and this is why I feel like the government knows a lot more, at least sections of the government know a lot more than what they're letting on is because I was told by a CIA agent that they actually have a test to determine if you have alien DNA in your system.
Maybe, maybe not.
I don't know.
But this person is a trustworthy person.
I don't have any reason to believe that they're pulling one over on me.
But it's like there's those kinds of things that get said by certain people who seem to have knowledge about these things that just kind of boggle your mind.
You know, like Chris, you know, shared several of these kinds of things in this interview with you where you just end up scratching your head.
You're like, and there's nothing you can do with it.
It's like, well, until they show me the DNA test, you know, like I can't believe it.
Did he give you any more details on that?
Like how do they get the test and what is the, what do they test for?
No.
No.
But, you know, there's, you know, but so I think the whole idea of like evidence, like we need to like zoom out a little bit and go, what do we mean by evidence?
What kinds of evidence would count and what combination of evidences would be suggestive?
Because I think the conversation too often is framed around the smoking gun.
And then that's used to dismiss a lot of otherwise important points and insights.
Well, that's, I mean, that's one of the conundrums of.
What I was talking about earlier with like those remote viewing programs during the Cold War, I mean, that's 100% was being done.
Like it was declassified and those programs, those secret or special access programs did exist.
And there was a big, you know, there's a big like, for lack of a better term, war going on around it where it is like science versus the paranormal, right?
Because they were using these things like remote viewing where they have these.
People go in these rooms at Monroe Institute or wherever it was, where they remote view somewhere and they write down the details of where they are.
And there's a person that's kind of like managing the session.
And it worked.
Like it literally worked.
They spent millions of dollars on this program over many years.
And I think the CIA director, I'm paraphrasing, but he said something like, if we can get two or 3% accurate intelligence out of this, it's worth X amount of dollars.
Right.
And The detractors of this, the people, the scientific people will say, well, this is not duplicatable or replicatable in a lab.
You can't study this.
But that's not to say it isn't real and it isn't useful.
And it is pretty duplicable.
You know, like they have, you know, like they have double blind and triple blind protocols to remote viewing.
Like there's a very scientific approach to it.
You know, there's different schools of remote viewing that use different methodological protocols to try and, you know, up the level of veracity associated with the findings.
And they will have several people given the same coordinates, not knowing it and not knowing what the coordinates are, and they'll see what the similarities and differences are.
And so it might not be an exact science in the same way that some of our biochemistry and so forth is.
But like you said, if just 2% or 3% of it is actionable in Intel, then it might be worth it.
And the SRI, Stanford Research Initiative, was funded for many, many years.
Do you think the government would have kept funding it if it wasn't producing results?
And I suspect it's probably more than 2% to 3%.
You know, it's probably, you know, 40 to 60%.
Mudwater Children Claims00:02:16
And it's still a thing that's going on, too.
I just had a lady in here.
I don't know if you've ever heard of her, Annie Jacobson.
Oh, yeah.
She wrote the book.
She wrote a book called The Phenomena.
A bunch of great books she wrote.
One of her, I think it was her first book, Area 51.
I don't know if you are familiar with that book or not, but she had a source who was part of EGG, I believe.
He was an EGG engineer.
And he talks about Roswell.
And he was part of the crash retrieval at Roswell and testing it.
And what he said was that the craft that crashed was a flying saucer or flying disc, it came from Stalin.
It was built by the Russians.
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And it had surgically altered children in there that weren't flying it because it was remote control.
It was a remote control craft.
And the purpose of it was to sow sort of chaos in the US that we were being invaded by extraterrestrials.
Yeah.
And it even had some sort of Soviet markings on the inside of it.
Controlled Crash Retrievals00:15:27
And, you know, she asked him much later, like, you know, why he never talked about this before.
And obviously it was classified.
And this guy was like close to dying.
He was in his 90s.
And he said that because after they discovered this thing, the United States started doing the same thing.
They started doing the same tests on children.
She claims it was like children with, with like different, mental conditions or like Down syndrome or something like that.
They were doing experiments on them, trying to surgically alter them to look like extraterrestrials.
Have you ever heard of that?
Yep.
What is your take on all that?
As with a lot of the stuff, I think we have to be open to that as being one layer of what might have happened.
Like, you know, I mean, there's some very unsavory realities that, you know, our government's been involved in.
So I wouldn't put it past us to have some, you know, really unfortunate.
you know, things like that as part of it.
I don't really buy that explanation as a good explanation of Roswell, because to me, that's basically more or less one person saying that.
Whereas when we look at like the book Witness to Roswell, where these two guys spent like 20 years tracking down every person they could find that was part Of the Roswell incident over a week long period, they ended up with 600 witnesses, 600 people.
Like the guard who was just standing in front of the box that was closed.
And they never saw what was in the box, but they were just the guard guarding it.
And they interviewed them like, you know, who came and went?
What did they say?
What was your sense of what was going on?
Right.
So, so they put together a chronology of what happened over that week.
And, and to me, and that's 600 witnesses that are each have a little piece of the puzzle, almost all of whom are pretty credible.
Like there, and when you have that many witnesses.
There's no reason to think there's some mass conspiracy where like all of them are somehow part of some gotcha.
And so the sum total of that investigation as represented in that book, Witness to Roswell, I don't think squares with that particular story.
Right.
You know, so it doesn't mean that there wasn't some layer to that that's true or worth considering.
But I think that's the phenomenon is multifaceted.
And I think when we look for a single explanation to try and account for Roswell, I mean, Roswell is so fascinating because there's like. layers of mythos and cultural perception and media.
And so there's so many layers to it that it's a fascinating kind of consideration of what really happened there.
I mean, the fact that the Air Force came out with three different reports at different places trying to say, okay, now we're telling you the real story, that's interesting in and of itself.
There's this notion I develop in exo studies of doubleness that basically refers to how the phenomenon is basically double.
It presents itself in contradictory ways.
And Jacques Filet even talks about how the phenomena basically gives evidence for itself and evidence against itself, right?
So it's like self-erasing evidence.
That there's this dynamic with the phenomena where it's both subjective and objective, right?
It hangs out on the edge of human perception.
Yeah.
But it also seems to be interacting with it's almost deliberate.
Yes.
Deliberate.
Yeah.
And so there's a way in which it occupies this liminal space where it's both objective and subjective.
And that really messes with our view of what's real.
Because to us, things can just be objective to be real.
So something that kind of like is a physical craft and then changes into an orb and then changes into nothing and is gone.
We just can't get our minds around that.
And so then we are inclined to say, well, it all was just imaginal.
Even if the person went up and got radiation burns or touched it and said it was physical.
But, you know, so there's this way in which the phenomenon, it manifests in contradictory ways.
And so, you know, I think with something like Roswell, there's a lot of contradictions.
There's a lot of complexity.
And, you know, we might not ever get to the bottom of that particular story.
But when you place Roswell in a larger continuum of crash retrievals, you know, there's over a hundred, you know, documented crash retrievals that the U.S. has been involved in.
So, you look at the book Majestic Eyes, where Ryan Wood and others are reporting out all of these.
What book is this?
Majestic Eyes.
Who wrote it?
Ryan Wood.
Ryan Wood, okay.
Yeah.
And if you look at work with Richard Dolan around craft retrievals, and the work of Leo Springer around craft retrievals, and you look at the pattern of how those craft have been recovered and taken by the U.S. military and government, and then you look at Roswell.
you see patterns and continuity between what happened at Roswell and what happened in these subsequent events, right?
So if we just look at Roswell in an isolated case, it's in a way it's a lot easier to dismiss it.
But when you look at it in this historical continuum of dozens and dozens of craft retrievals and the witness reports associated with those craft retrievals, the military officers that have come forward, I think it's hard not to walk away with feeling like, hey, we must have anywhere between five and 20 craft.
And then now with people like David Grush and others coming out, they're like saying, yeah, we do.
And it's like, okay, well, that makes sense given the history.
of this crash retrievals that have happened since the mid 40s, right?
With Roswell being, you know, and it seems, and Dolan makes this point that basically if you look at the first like five cases of crash retrievals and the witnesses and kind of what they report happening, you basically can see that the military is getting better and better with each incident to deal with it and make it go away, right?
So it's kind of like Roswell was kind of like caught us off guard, you know, or the Trinity event that Jacques Villay talks about that happened before that.
And then it was kind of like, all right, we got to get a team in place.
And then the team's in place.
And then the next event happens and the team kind of goes out and they're kind of on task sooner, but they're kind of fumbling things.
And, you know, the local preacher, you know, comes to the site and they don't get rid of him soon enough.
And, you know, like, you know, and, you know, so you see that they are getting better and better.
They're becoming a well-oiled machine by like the sixth major crash retrieval event that happens in the late 50s, you know, and then now they're just like, they're really, really good at it.
Now, you said you did a lot of research on there was a paper or study on like the biggest possible implications on human society or our culture if something was disclosed.
What were some of the things that stood out to you?
So this is research that my colleagues have done and people can look at it at cosmicconnectors.com.
A 70-page report.
There are 44 implications that they mapped out.
They developed these implications through a series of focus groups.
by getting small groups of people together and just having them brainstorm and think about what are the possible implications.
So what's interesting with what their findings are is that people who don't know anything about the topic, right, don't know much about UFOs or ETs, they tend to just view negative implications occurring as a result of disclosure.
Whereas the people who are more educated in the topic, they see a variety of positive implications.
So positive implications like, you know, a Recognizing that we're not alone being a unifying narrative for a globe that's otherwise in much polarization.
The possibility of more funding going into UAP studies and tech, and that there might be some results that come out of tech by investing more funds into this.
Some of the kind of things Gary Nolan's trying to do.
And other implications.
Then there's taking abductees and their stories more seriously.
So you can go to that website and see their report and see all the implications there.
But it's nice because it kind of maps out all the different possibilities of like, oh, the economic implications, the educational implications, like how might we have to rewrite our history books in light of some of these findings, right?
Like if in fact we have been visited by non-human presences for at least the last 5,000 years, what does that say about our religions and our science and, okay, maybe now we can explain the pyramids or whatever, right?
Like there could be some pretty, you know, dynamite, you know, things to reconsider in light of a larger galactic narrative that might be emerging where we realize like, one, we're not alone and two, we haven't been alone a long time.
And three, there have been ongoing interactions between a variety of beings and ourselves.
And I find it very telling that like if you listen to what Chris Nolan or Chris Mellon has been saying, what Gary Nolan has been saying, Lou Elizondo have been saying, over the last five years, if you kind of, you know, four years, if you track the kinds of statements that they kind of started making after 2017, right when the New York Times article came out, and that they progressively have moved and like more and more bold.
Saying basically that we're dealing with a non-human presence that has been on this earth for a very long time.
All of them are saying that.
All of them are increasingly in more and more bold statements, kind of landing on that.
They're not saying these are flesh and blood beings from other planets.
They're not saying they're necessarily interdimensional, though both of those are probably true.
Like some of them are that.
But Lou, Chris, Gary, and others. seem to be on the same page with being more suggestive that what we're likely dealing with is something that has been on this planet for a long time and that this is actually their planet, right?
Like, if anything, we're kind of like the visitors.
And so, you know, and you look at all the stuff around the oceans and all the, you know, UFOs are coming out of the water, right?
And you also get reports of them going into mountains, right?
So there seem to be bases, you know, underwater and in mountains and, you know, and maybe even just in other dimensions above us, right.
So it starts to make you have to reconsider like, what does it mean to be on this planet?
Like, are there other layers or dimensions of this planet that go beyond just our kind of basic physical view of it?
Well people intelligence, people like uh Elizondo, what is their incentive to do this?
What the do they care?
Like like, there has to be a good reason for them to want to paint some sort of narrative.
Yeah, and it seems very controlled the way they're releasing it.
So why?
Well, I mean, so yeah, I think it is controlled, but I don't think it's controlled by like, a single person or a single agency.
It's controlled by almost like the complexity of the topic and the fact that they all have worked with the government.
They're all aware of their NDAs.
They're aware of national security.
They're trying to walk a really fine line, right?
So I think when you look at the institutionalization of secrecy, you start to appreciate and realize like it's a very complex landscape.
that's not just being driven by one person or one thing.
There's a lot of contributing factors and that Mellon and Louis Zondo and others, they're doing as best they can in that and Grush.
If anything, they're trying to stimulate the larger populace to demand answers.
I think we see that successfully with Congress.
We have an interesting division where sections of Congress are really interested in this topic.
but they keep getting stonewalled by the Pentagon, right?
So that's an interesting development that we now have that.
That was not the case a few years ago.
I've heard a lot of people, and this was brought up at the Seoul event, you know, in Stanford, that, you know, the next president is likely going to be a UFO president, right?
Like this topic is likely to come to a head where whoever is president is going to probably play a big role with some major steps in the disclosure project.
either shutting it down or moving it forward and that we're like these things are kind of coming to a head and that, you know, the whole effort around the legislation that got gutted in December was basically to kind of try and set up that possibility so that the presidential candidates campaigning in the fall would have to speak to this topic, right?
And like make this a major kind of, you know, issue for their candidacy.
Which president do you think that's running right now is the UFO president?
I don't think it's Trump.
Trump doesn't have any interest in the topic at all, as far as I can tell.
If he knew about it, though, he would definitely not keep his mouth shut.
Yeah, I think that I don't think our military or our defense contractors would ever let the president know, especially him.
Well, and this is what, you know, like Grant Cameron, who studied the UFO topic in relationship to presidencies, you know, has said in various places that basically the president's a four-year problem, you know, in the sense that, like it's a four-year problem.
You know, they just cycle in and out and like you don't want to let them know because, you know, that they're going to be gone in four or eight years.
Right.
And so it's only, you know, lifers, you know, who are in, you know, those political systems are the ones that are really in the know.
But there have been presidents that have been briefed to an extent, not much, you know, and so there, there is a real interesting history around which presidents have known what at which point.
But I think it's fair to say none of them have really known much except for the early ones, you know, like Truman and Eisenhower who were directly involved with. creating what's now thought of as the truth embargo, putting in place the CIA and other mechanisms to kind of manage this until we got a handle on it.
And then by that point, it was like, why let the cat out of the bag now?
Let's just keep going.
Because secrecy has a tendency of replicating itself.
So it kind of perpetuates its own self-serving needs.
What do you think about that latest report on Grush going to New York to some penthouse?
flying there and doing a talk to all these people and talking about the space, a 40 foot wide craft that as soon as you walk into it, it's the size of a football field.
Hoaxes and Genuine Phenomena00:11:51
A lot of people report that kind of experience in the experiencer literature.
So, and this is why I often come back to like, yes, you know, it's testimony.
It's very fallible.
I mean, there's a lot of things you have to consider when you're, you know, looking at, you know, witness reports.
But there's a process of examining it and seeing kind of where does it take us.
And when you have like over 100 people, over the last 50 years who have gone on record and reported that kind of experience and and the majority of them seem credible they're, you know, they don't know about the other reports and so then you have to say, well, it seems that part of the phenomenon is that from time to time, people have an experience of entering into a craft that seems much bigger on the inside than the outside right.
And since we know that the phenomena seems to manipulate time and space and there's lots of other examples of that, whether it's missing time or you know all kinds of things then why wouldn't we expect that kind of spatial distortion or spatial complexity to be possible in this kind of situation?
So when you situate it amongst all that other stuff, then it's kind of like, yeah, that's not surprising.
One, there's a witness record of that kind of thing being reported and with those people not knowing each other.
But also what we know about the physics of this phenomena would suggest that that's a likely possibility.
It's just so convoluted.
Even within the government, it seems like there are different factions that have different objectives or that are trying to push different information or suppress different information.
Yeah, well, I think that's part of it.
I mean, we often talk about the government as if it's this monolithic block.
You know, I think there are like 10 different agendas and turf wars going on around this.
And different groups have different understandings of the phenomenon based on their own history and reconnaissance work around it.
And they've come to certain conclusions and certain understandings of it.
And then they're using that to inform how they feel they should go about navigating the current disclosure kind of dynamic.
So I don't think there's a unified view across these different camps, if you will.
And I think that's part of, as the public, I think what we get wrong is that we kind of think it's like, oh, the government against David Grush.
I think there are a lot of different players with different backgrounds, experiences, and understandings.
And they're all, I think, mostly trying to do what they think is right.
I don't think it's as nefarious as often it gets portrayed.
I think we do have some nefarious dimensions that are going to get accounted, you know, come forward like so.
It's not like that's not in the mix.
But I don't feel that that's a big driver of a lot of it.
I think it's just the complexity of an institutional power, secrecy dynamics, and just the deep challenge this phenomena gives at an individual level, collective, and social level.
So people have strong opinions about what we should do.
I wonder how much of the driver behind the US trying to come out with this stuff has to do with other countries or superpowers coming out with it before them.
Yeah.
Or like announcing or maybe talking that they're going to disclose it and America doesn't want to be the second person.
They want to be the first ones to it, kind of like the space race.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's a really important geopolitical dynamic that's going on because, you know, if Russia or China, you know, played the disclosure card, like that would be pretty wild.
And it is very interesting that when you look at like crash retrieval, you know, incidences around the world.
You have, you know, other countries basically saying the U.S. came and got it, right?
So, you know, so there is a way in which a lot of countries, I think, defer towards the U.S. on this topic and are kind of waiting for the U.S. to make a move.
So, because a lot of people are kind of like, why wait on America?
Like, you know, why doesn't, you know, Brazil come forward or why doesn't, you know, Canada do something?
But I think there's a lot of complex behind the scenes.
implicit and explicit understandings as to basically the U.S. needs to be the one that moves this forward.
And I think once it does, and we've done a lot already just in the last five years, you know, and more and more countries are, you know, talking about it at a national level.
You know, we have Mexico having their Congress talk about it.
We had Brazil, their Congress, you know, talked about, you know, like, so I think all of that's really yeah, what did you think about the the mummies.
The little mummies in Mexico.
I've seen that.
I saw that photo on Google probably like five years ago.
Yeah.
That thing's been floating around Google for a long time.
Yeah.
And Gaia did a big thing on it.
Yeah.
These things.
I don't know.
When I look closely at the back and forth, I see good reasons to dismiss it.
And I see some good reasons to keep an open mind.
So I don't know.
I think it's an example of how in this topic, you get a mix of. hoaxes and genuine phenomenon.
Jamie, the guy who's behind a lot of this, he doesn't have a good track record.
So it's harder to.
Who is Jamie?
I'm forgetting his last name, but he's been known to be kind of involved with promoting other bodies that turned out to not be bodies.
And so he's kind of got a charlatan reputation.
Yeah, there's a lot of people out there in this field that have that kind of reputation.
What is that?
They're doing an MRI, one of those things.
Yeah, I wonder what turned out.
Because they scanned it, but I think it it was sent to an institute that lost its accreditation oh, so the scans were deemed unreliable or something.
Well, maybe they saw that the institute was doing the scans and they decided to pull the accreditation.
Well, I think this, this raises a a great point, because I think, even when you have a let's say that's a genuine, possible extraterrestrial of some sort, right like it's, let's say there's a good chance it's actually a real body okay like, I think we have this idea of like.
Oh, why don't we just send it to, you know, get some lab work done on it?
It's a lot more complex than that, right like here like, so they sent it, they got scans, but then the the institution lost its accreditation.
Now we can't use those scans like.
There's so many layers of complexity around.
You know, especially when you're, when you're investigating something that's controversial, it like amplifies all those layers of valid knowledge and, and it's like you, you end up with scientists Good scientists that disagree for different reasons, and it's like, um, I think it highlights that we often don't agree on the nature of reality, much more often than we realize, you know.
And so, when you take a controversial topic like this, it kind of exposes that you know, even the scientific method is not as straightforward as we might think it is.
What does this say?
They're not extraterrestrials, they're dolls made from animal bones from this planet joined together with modern synthetic glue, says Flavio Estrada, an archaeologist with the.
Peru's Institute for Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences.
It's a totally made up story, Estrada added.
But there are other examples where they've done x rays where it doesn't seem like their animal parts glued together.
Like the x rays actually seem to demonstrate like a coherent organic form, right?
Are those online?
Is that published, what you were talking about, where they said they think it's completely organic and not fake?
Yeah, I've come across that in different places.
I don't know if we'll be able to pull it up with a quick search.
But my point is that.
You can get very differing expert views on a controversial issue like this.
And so it kind of leaves you having to just keep a question mark, right?
It's like you can't really land on one side or the other because it's like, oh, one expert saying it's glued animal bones, and you have another expert who has good credentials who's saying, no, I did the x ray, and as far as I can tell, the bone structure is organic and natural, right?
And then it's like, okay, well, what do we do with that?
One person saying it's bunk, one person saying, it might not be bunk, you know.
And and then when it's situated with Jamie and you know, like it just it's kind of like the Roswell thing, it's like it just it becomes its own thing and it's like you can't even figure out like, what to do with it.
So it's just kind of like you just like sit it over here on the side, just like okay let's, let's focus on something else.
Yeah, and it's easy to inject like a little bit of like false narrative into something that's real too, to just muddy the water like um.
Going back to Andy J Gibson's book Area 51, when they were first, when they were first developing The first fighter jet off of Groom Lake, and the CIA pilots were test flying those things over Nevada.
They would bring gorilla masks in the cockpits for them.
So, in the event that a commercial pilot or a civilian pilot would get in with like viewable distance of that jet plane, the pilot would put on a gorilla mask.
So, that way, when they go to the bar or they go to tell family about that later, they say, I saw a fucking gorilla flying a jet plane.
So, it's kind of like just injecting a little bit of falsehood to keep secrets.
And you could almost say the same thing about Bob Lazar's story.
When he's in there, he describes working on all these crafts.
And then he describes walking past a corridor where, for a brief second, he saw scientists looking at a little alien body.
Right.
So, if you had, if you did have, if you're the government and you had these, whether they're archaeological crafts that they found, or if they're things that we back engineered, but they're super secret, and you had this guy that was in there working on them, wouldn't you try to do a little bit of that gorilla mask trickery by showing him an alien?
So that just makes him a little bit more.
You know, uncredible.
Exactly.
Well, and I think there's been Richard Dolan and others have shown the documentation that's been released over the years.
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AI Underwater Base Theory00:05:38
Of how the CIA and others have intentionally engaged in that kind of activity around the UFO topic.
It's been an explicit kind of strategy.
And so we should expect that even now.
And this also highlights that the phenomenon itself kind of pulls out this doubleness.
It almost always has falsity and truth combined in very odd ways that leave you kind of not clear which aspect is truthful and which aspect is false.
Right.
You know, and the phenomena does that itself.
And then we do that in relationship to the phenomena.
And then the phenomena sometimes seems to be mocking us in doing that and doing its own version in response to us.
Right.
You know, and so, you know, like there's interesting documentation of how, you know, like how the different shapes of UFOs have appeared over the years.
And it seems that.
And the phenomena has, you know, like sometimes we've done, you know, some of our craft have been made to look like UFOs, but then the phenomena comes along and then it starts showing new kinds of UFOs that are kind of making fun of or mocking our version of, you know, and so it's like there's this kind of weird dynamic of like, well, it's like, it's all like smoke and mirrors.
It's like, what's going on?
You know, like how is it that the phenomena intentionally seems to be one upping us with its expression of what it manifests as?
In direct relationship to our activities around that.
So it's really, you know, and then it's like, well, then it's all fake.
Well, maybe, but there's a lot of good reason not to think it's all fixed.
It's crazy.
Like, I think it's only less than 5% of the surface of the earth is populated by human beings.
And to think about how much of this earth is unexplored, and especially the oceans, I think the oceans are like 75% of the surface of the earth.
You know, what's what it could very, very easily be that something else is hiding, whether it be under the oceans or somewhere that we've never explored that we just don't know about.
And, um, You know, I heard a theory recently about it, it was kind of just like a fun sci fi video on YouTube I saw on the Y Files, where there is a theory that there is an underwater base that is 100% runoff artificial intelligence.
And their goal, like they're basically doing studies and reconnaissance around the earth.
And they manufacture these drones that they shoot up and they fly around the earth to study shit.
And basically, human beings are irrelevant to it.
They don't even pay attention to us.
We're just like ants in the forest.
I forget which video it was.
Yeah, maybe it was a.
No, I don't remember.
But, anyways, it was an interesting story.
But it was like, you know, maybe these bases move.
But the idea that it was all artificial intelligence was quite interesting.
You know, they could make the crafts, and when the crafts would come back to it, they would say they would like, Deconstruct them and then reconstruct them to look different based on whatever the mission was.
And, you know, maybe those little gray aliens could just be, you know, drones or worker clones that, you know, helped run this underwater AI base.
But, like, even looking at what AI, what we've created with AI, I mean, that's non human intelligence.
And we have many times, I mean, we have.
Literally in the last three years, it has changed so many things about the way industries work.
It has impacted the economy in crazy ways.
There's people make YouTube videos now that are completely done by AI, right?
The voiceovers, the thumbnails, they tell them how to do the titles.
And there was that recent documentary who is it?
The documentary was on Andy Warhol.
And the whole entire voiceover was done by AI.
And it sounds exactly like Andy Warhol, and they're basically just recreating Andy Warhol for a documentary.
That's crazy.
So, you know, if there was some sort of other advanced alien race, or if it was a previous advanced version of humans that was before the flood, or like before an asteroidal or a solar flare hit the earth and wiped out humanity and reset us back to the stone age, wouldn't they eventually get to where we are now with artificial intelligence that would be able to survive that?
Or survive any sort of nuclear fallout from a nuclear war under the oceans.
There's just so many possibilities.
And one of the crazy things about this phenomenon is, like we were talking about earlier, it lingers on the edge of human perception.
And one of the things about human beings is we are fascinated by the unknown.
What we don't know, we obsess over.
And I often think about like if a UFO was to land on the White House lawn and say, Greetings, Earthlings, this is what we are, this is where we're from.
I think that we would forget about it in short order and find something else to replace that.
Right.
Lucid Dreams and Trauma00:15:18
We would find something to replace the whole UFO phenomenon.
Yeah.
It feels like if they landed on the White House lawn and we captured it in HD, people would just like dismiss it.
They still would say, Oh, that's just, that's a deep fake, you know, like, you know, and, You know, either to like try and preserve the mystery, right?
You know, or like you said, like if they did accept that that actually happened, then, you know, then we might go more into the paranormal aspects.
And I think, you know, Jacques's really interesting because, you know, he really highlights in the body of his work that the high strangeness is the most important and interesting aspect of this phenomenon, right?
And he's always asking people to kind of look at the cases that are weirdest and the most strange, right?
And Jeff Kripa is this great.
Phrase, and I think Mike Cleland has also kind of said this that the owl guy, yeah, that the weirder it is, the truer it is, right?
And so, so we have this idea that if something's weird, it's not true.
But Jeff and Mike and others and Jacques basically kind of point out that, like, and Jeff gives this example of how you talk to an experiencer, you know, and they share with you, let's say they decide to come forward and share their experience with you, and they do, and it's kind of weird, it's like, oh, yeah, that's weird, and then.
Then like two weeks later, you're talking with them again and they're like, you know, yeah.
And they share a little bit more and they share this other layer that's like really kind of odd.
You're like, oh, wow, like that's, that's really weird.
And then like you talk with them a couple of days later and they're like, they're trusting you.
They're kind of willing to like bring forward.
You've shown that you're open and interested.
You're not getting kind of freaked out by the weirdness.
And they're like, well, yeah, I haven't mentioned this to anyone else, but let me tell you this other piece that also happened.
And then they share that and you're just like, holy, like, like.
Right.
You know, yeah, it's happened to me before.
And basically, Kripel's saying that, like, then you can really trust that person at that moment because you know that they're not wanting to tell you that part.
Like, they don't even know what they think about that part.
Like, there's a lot of self-talk.
They're trying to feel you out.
Well, it's not that they're trying to feel you out in like some kind of strategic way.
It's more like just the organic process of building trust and rapport and them kind of metabolizing their own experience and sharing it kind of in chunks.
Like, okay, let me.
Let me share the kind of weird part.
Okay.
Now let me show you the weirder part.
Okay.
I think I'm going to tell you the really weird part.
Right.
And that happens a lot when you talk with experiencers.
So I had a very strange experience.
I had a guy on the podcast.
He made a documentary about the Zimbabwe encounters.
Right.
Was it Randy?
Randy.
Yeah.
Randy Nickerson.
Yeah.
I know Randy.
He was at the Moreau event with Chris and all of us.
So, we did a whole podcast about that.
Two hours, something like that.
And we talked and we stopped recording.
And we sat here for like three more hours after we stopped recording, talking about his experience.
Yeah, it's intense.
And all the surveillance stuff.
He did not want to talk.
He did not want to record any of it.
He didn't want any of it out there.
Yeah.
And it was a lot like what you were just describing.
And I've noticed, like, people like him.
Who have these incredible accounts of shit happening to them since they were, since he was a kid, him and his sister.
Yeah.
He seemed very distraught.
Yeah.
And stressed out.
In a deep way.
Like, not in a good way.
Yeah.
And, you know, and Jeff also highlights how trauma is mixed in with the transcendent, right?
In these kinds of experiences, you have these kind of world opening, mind blowing experiences that are kind of in some sense transcendental, but often there's trauma, there's fear, there's overwhelm that's mixed in.
And so you kind of get this.
really interesting mix of trauma and transcendence.
And that's also why, like I was talking about before, you have this trauma that happens to the body and people's subtle bodies get knocked out.
And then they have a transcendental experience of a near-death experience of seeing their loved ones at the light.
And then they decide to come back to the body.
So often in the context of these experiences, you have these interesting mixes of kind of profound spiritual experiences and really kind of terrifying existential realities.
Right.
You know, and John Mack's research with abductees, you know, kind of tracked how people's experiences often started out more traumatic.
And then over time, it became more kind of spiritual and transpersonal.
Right.
So you see a lot of really interesting patterns around this mixture of trauma and transcendence.
Yeah.
John Mack wrote a whole chapter on Randy.
Yeah.
It was, it was bizarre.
I didn't even know about it until after the podcast.
I was begging him to come back and do another podcast right afterwards.
He didn't want to do it.
But yeah, what do you think the trauma has to do with opening up this door inside of people?
Like, what specifically is it about trauma?
I mean, because Chris Bledsoe had a life full of incredible trauma, emotional and physical.
I think the trauma is often related to like a couple things.
One, that we're being exposed to something that doesn't fit into our categories of reality.
So there's just kind of the mental trauma of being confronted with things that just don't make sense, right?
So that in itself is kind of traumatic.
I think experiences themselves.
Yeah.
And then I think the deeper trauma, it seems to be connected to when one's sovereignty is somehow violated or taken away.
Right.
You know, so like in the case of abductees, right, where they feel like this is happening and they don't want it to happen and they're not able to stop it and they're not able to protect themselves from it.
Right.
Like that's abuse.
Right.
If we look, if that's happening with, you know, your dad or your mom are doing that to you over time, we would call that abuse.
you know, emotional, mental, sexual abuse, right?
And so when it happens in a paranormal context, like it's still abuse and it creates trauma and it creates, you know, post-traumatic stress syndrome and other, you know, so because it's the same kind of dynamics where you're not able to control your environment.
You're not able to protect yourself.
You're not able to, you know, you're not able to say no, stop, right?
You know, or you try a bunch of things and it doesn't seem to work, right?
And so I think a lot of the abductees, it's like they get to a point where they either kind of double down on kind of that.
kind of defensive orientation, which I think probably perpetuates the trauma, or they have to turn a corner and they have to open up to it and say, I don't understand this.
I don't know why this is happening to me, but I need to move towards it.
And it's like in lucid dreaming.
One of the techniques to become awake in your dreams is basically if a monster is chasing you, like a nightmare is happening, if you turn around and move towards it, then you will pop into lucidity often, right?
Because it's like you're having a fear response.
You're running from something.
But if you have enough conscious awareness in that moment to kind of turn and face whatever it is chasing you, then often you will pop into being awake in your dream.
And then you realize, oh, I'm in a dream and I'm awake.
And that nightmares just disappeared.
So it's kind of a similar kind of choice point when, you know, we're dealing with the paranormal, right?
And I'm not saying it always works out good.
Like there's some nasty things out there.
But there is something about working with your own consciousness.
And this comes back to the protocols.
How do you work with your own body, your own awareness, your own consciousness as you're interacting with this phenomenon?
Have you practiced lucid dreaming?
I have.
Yeah.
And I practice out of body techniques.
I, you know, kind of along these lines, I had an experience many years ago where.
I, in the dream, I was up in my loft where I grew up as a kid, like, you know, junior high and high school, the house I grew up in.
And I had a bunk bed and the top bunk was kind of twice as big as a normal bed.
It was kind of this loft.
And I was up there in the dream and these three guys came into the room and I could tell they were going to kill me.
And they were communicating, you know, like, hey, we're going to get you.
We're going to kill you.
And I was literally afraid of for my life in the dream.
For some reason in that moment, and this is like the point of the practices and the protocols is to help you wake up even when you're totally afraid.
Right.
And make a different choice.
That's not a choice based out of fear.
So for some reason, I decided that, okay, I surrendered to it.
And this is the whole point of the surrender piece.
So I surrendered.
I jumped off the loft into the three guys, basically like, okay, kill me.
It's fine.
I'm good with it.
Like, whatever.
Because I realized like I couldn't escape.
And so when I realized I couldn't escape, for some reason, I was like, okay, I surrendered into it.
As soon as I jumped off and I kind of landed on them, thinking that they were going to kill me, I woke up.
I became lucid.
Just boom, and all of a sudden I was lucid.
I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm awake!
And then I went flying.
Oh, wow!
Because a lot of times people want to fly when they become lucid.
It's like the most common next move you make.
Yeah, I used to have a lot of crazy dreams and lucid dreams and nightmares when I was a kid, but it stopped.
It stopped when I got older.
I never tried.
Well, yeah, so you should go back, you should reactivate those possibilities.
Yeah, no, I had um, so when Andrew Gallimard was in here, he was actually telling me we were talking about that a little bit, and he said, Um, Forget the name of the chemical compound, but there's some shit you can buy on Amazon that helps you have.
Yeah, I forget what it was.
I wish I had a bottle of it.
Do you really?
It's like a powder you mix in water or something.
Yeah, it's powder, or you can get capsules.
And it helps you, it activates the REM sleep more.
So you can have like more crazy dreams and more of your sleeping time is spent in REM sleep.
Yeah.
And he says he practices that, which is interesting.
Yeah.
And sometimes, even sometimes the protocols are that you set your alarm to wake up and then you take the pill and then you go back to sleep, right?
You know, so it's kind of depending on when you want the dosing to.
Occur and you know, oh really yeah, and because a lot of times, you know you, you break your sleep cycle so you can go back into rem, and you know in a certain way so, so yeah, there's a lot of times people have their most profound lucid dreams in the morning, right before they wake up, right.
So there's like ways to kind of like amplify the likelihood of that happening, and sometimes that involves waking up in the middle of the night so you'll sleep a little bit longer, or setting your alarm for a half hour before you normally wake up, and you know.
So there's all kinds of different Protocols people have developed to play with all this.
Yeah.
With people like Randall Nickerson, do you think any of these experiences are happening in sort of like a dream state and not a physical reality?
Like it's not like people, like beings aren't actually landing in his front yard and going in there and taking him.
Maybe this is all happening like within a different realm inside of his mind.
Yeah.
And, you know, and I run this program, a doctoral program on integral noetic sciences, which is basically the, you know, study of.
Consciousness through a scientific lens.
And in that program, there is a concentration students can do called anomalous studies.
And that's the kind of thing we look at and explore and study in that context.
So I have a doctoral student who focuses a lot on dreams, but not dreams in the normal sense, more like dreams like you're talking about where there seem to be other realms that people are in.
And it's not so much a dream, but it's what's often referred to as the imaginal.
The imaginal is an objective realm that's kind of initially seems dreamlike, but it's like you know, it's not the objective world as we think of it around us right now, but it's an objective, subtle realm that you can get to, and you can get to it through different protocols or you can get to it through the dream space.
And so there's this, and this is another example of the phenomenon being double, like the doubleness I was talking about, a lot of encounters occur in what I call the subtle zone, and the subtle zone is what you were just describing as a possibility for Randall.
Is that that it's it's It's dreamlike.
It's not necessarily physical, but it's real, but it's another realm or even the DMT elves, right?
When you take different, you know, sacred medicines and hallucinogenics and you often go to these realms that are real realms.
They appear dreamlike in the sense that they're subtle.
The subtle realms are much more dynamic than the physical realm.
But part of what makes them different than the dream realm is that there's a level of stability and coherence that usually is not the same as in the dream space, right?
The dream space seems to be you know, it changes much more, right?
It's more kind of dynamic in that sense.
Whereas the subtle realms, like, you know, because sometimes people will talk about they take DMT and they, you know, they have an experience and then a year later they do it again and they go right back to where they were in that previous trip, right?
Almost as if no time has passed, right?
So, you know, you don't have that so much in like the dream space, that kind of constancy or, you know, and so the phenomenon, you know, like if you look at abductions, it seems like a lot of abductions are physical abductions.
you have reports of the spouse saying, I woke up and he or she wasn't next to me.
They weren't outside.
Their body was gone.
Their physical body was gone.
And then, you know, it showed up like boom like that and was there again.
Right.
So there are cases and reports and enough evidence that lead us to believe that some abductions are in fact physical.
But a lot of others seem to be happening in the subtle zone, which is basically they're taking your subtle body out of your physical body and your subtle body.
And when you're in your subtle body, it's like you're in a dream.
Like you can see yourself, you can interact with things.
Like you're in a body, but it's just an energetic body that's able to kind of go into these other dimensions.
So like when you take, you know, like DMT and you find yourself in another realm, you're in your subtle body, right?
You can think of it as your dream body, like the body you have when you're in dreams.
But it's, in fact, the dream body is our astral body.
And we can use that same body to go into these other realms, right?
And there's other bodies like the mental body and the causal body that allow you to go into different realms, right?
Um, so a lot of the phenomena is this mix of it's occurring kind of you know, just like we have a lucid dream where you can wake up in the dream, the opposite can happen where you're awake here right now and you're also dreaming, right?
Subtle Body Implants00:04:03
You're also in a dream state, like the subtle realm is kind of bleeding through and mixing with the physical realm.
So, like when people talk about the Oz factor, like they have this experience of an encounter with a UFO and it all goes silent.
and the cricket stop and this stop, it was kind of like this eerie silence.
To me, that's an indication that they've likely entered into the subtle zone where they're in this liminal space that is in part physical because they're still in the forest or they're still on the side of the road.
The physical world that they were in is there, but kind of overlaid and interpenetrating with that world are these other realities, and that these beings sometimes are in that realm.
They're not fully in the physical realm.
Sometimes they can come into the physical realm, but it takes a lot of energy and effort sometimes to fully manifest into the physicality of you know what we would think of as material realm, and so sometimes it's easier or better for them to stay in this energetic state and bring us into that energetic state, you know, through our subtle bodies.
And so I think and this is part of what makes talking about and understanding what's happening so confusing, because we have this very strong view of a physical world and that's the only world there is.
Yeah, I think part of What's helpful when you start realizing this kind of larger esoteric cosmology, where these other realms and dimensions are around and available and how they operate and how beings in them use them and how those realms interface with this realm, I think you're right that a lot of experiences are occurring in the subtle realms or in this liminal space, this imaginal realm.
It doesn't mean it's happening in the mind because sometimes it can be, absolutely.
I mean, fantasy and delusion is mixed in with a lot of this, right?
But in the authentic cases, the person is basically just going into that realm with their subtle body, whereas their physical body remains in this realm.
And then they're in that body and walking around, interacting with these beings.
And that sometimes the implants are even energetic implants into that subtle body.
So they're not even like physical in the way that we would think of physicality.
And then when that subtle body goes back and integrates with the physical body, they have an implant, but it's not necessarily a physical implant that you would find under a microscope.
It might be like kind of a technology.
That's created out of etheric matter that only can be seen and experienced and in that frequency, real implants you've seen.
Well, I haven't seen, but I know there's been a lot of good research on real implants, physical implants.
But I also know that some implants are not physical in that sense but are like energetic right and somehow they can manifest from whatever other thing our brain is constructing when we're asleep or in some other state into a physical state.
What sort of evidence is there, like physical evidence is there of experiencers having implants?
You can feel them sometimes under the skin.
They've been x-rayed.
They've been surgically removed.
They're often very tiny, like Roger Lear, Dr. Lear studied a bunch of them.
Whitley Strieber talks about how the implant in his ear moved around and then so he can feel it.
And, you know, so there's sometimes there's scars, sometimes there's scoop marks, you know, that appear overnight.
And it's kind of like I didn't have that yesterday.
And now all of a sudden I have a scoop mark of a wound that would have taken two weeks generally to heal, but it's like it's there overnight.
So there can be body marks.
So there's a lot of different kinds of circumstantial and suggestive evidence.
And there's been physical implants removed.
You know, I think there's at least 20 that have been documented and studied.
And what do they determine those things were when they were removed?
Sulfur Smell and Demons00:16:08
Yeah, and this is part of what's interesting with the phenomena.
Like often when they've been removed, the studies have been inconclusive, or it's that's been um, like organic matter um, or or just typical metals that you find on this planet.
Yeah, right and so.
So then that becomes a basis from which to dismiss it.
Right, and maybe maybe that's justified, but there's enough other elements to the story that make you you should maybe be thoughtful about dismissing it because yeah, sure we don't understand it, But given all the other bits, like it seems like maybe something's going on.
Have you, I'm sure you've heard of James Fox's film Moment of Contact from Varginha, Brazil.
Yeah, it's amazing.
That was one of the most fascinating things I've ever heard.
And all the eyewitness accounts is that he interviewed around the whole town.
Yeah.
And they're still, they're looking for the medical reports.
I know he and Leslie Kane are trying to track down some of the x-rays and the medical reports that occurred when they took the beans to the hospital and, you know, and did some initial studies on them.
One of the most fascinating things about that story is.
All of the people in the hospital reporting the pungent smell of sulfur.
Right, and the whole hospital smelled like sulfur for days after that thing left.
Yeah, and sulfur is a smell that is associated with a lot of paranormal events, not just and in the biblical context and ancient stories of demonic encounters smelling like salt, like these demons in the Bible leaving in the smell of sulfur and the cloven feet.
Yeah.
Which these people, that's exactly how they described this freaking creature they saw in Virginia, Brazil.
It had the cloven feet and it has smelled like sulfur.
Yeah.
Diana Psalca was pointing that out to me.
Yeah.
And when you see the drawings of it that were done by, I don't know if the girl, young girls did it, but it's like, it's red.
Yeah.
With like red eyes and brown skin.
It looks like a demon.
It does look like a demon.
Yeah.
Right.
It probably was not a demon.
It just is a non-human intelligence that kind of fits our cultural stereotype of a demon.
And, you know, so you can imagine that there are demons and they probably present in a variety of ways.
And then there are ETs that sometimes look like demons that then people assume are demons.
So, like, did someone interact with an ET that looked like a demon or did they interact with a real demon?
Right.
You know, so I think that's part of what happens in these experiences is that people will have, in their cosmology, they'll have demons and not ETs.
Right.
Or they'll have ETs and not demons.
Right.
And then whatever they encounter, they kind of fit into. that template.
And part of my work and research is to say, hey, look, if we really look at all the experiencer accounts, if we really look at all the evidence, it seems that there are demons, there are ETs, there are fairy beings and nature spirits, there are DMT elves, there are ghosts, right?
And we would be well advised to not just make room for a few of those and discount the others, right?
Like what is a cosmology that we need that makes room for all these different types of intelligences?
Because then maybe we might not confuse them with each other as much as we do.
Right, and I think the sulfur smell because you get that also with, like Bigfoot encounters.
Really yeah, Bigfoot's often like.
That's why it's called the skunk ape right here in Florida.
Right, the skunk ape is because it smells like a skunk, like it becomes the sulfur.
I don't fucking know that.
Yeah so, and and ghosts, when people encounter ghosts, sometimes they'll talk about the sulfur.
So it seems that there's there's probably a number of different explanations, but some of it seems to be related to phenomena associated with the subtle realm and these other dimensions when it comes through and manifests Into our realm in a more perceivable, physical way.
There's something about that kind of transfer of energy from this other dimension to our dimension that results in a sulfur smell, right?
And because when people did encounter negative entities in like the Middle Ages and stuff, there would be that sulfur smell.
Yes.
And so then they would just associate it, become highly associated with the devil, right?
You know, because like, yeah, I had this nasty encounter with this bean last night.
There was a sulfur smell.
And because it's a nasty smell and because the encounter was nasty and the devil's nasty, it's kind of like, oh yeah, that makes sense.
That'd have a smell like shit.
Yeah.
It seems like all these stories are a part of a thousand, thousands of years of playing the game of telephone.
Yeah.
And so many things have gotten lost in translation.
I want to know what the Vatican knows, though.
I feel like the Vatican has some secrets.
They have a lot.
They probably actually, out of all of the players in the game, they probably know the most.
I think they know a lot more than the CIA and the government.
And I think part of that is because they have a religious orientation, a spiritual orientation.
And the phenomena seems to be both.
Technological and scientific and religious and spiritual right.
And I think part of what's interesting about the current ways in which the phenomenon is getting more cultural playtime is and, like you know, if we do have some kind of disclosure event in the coming years or it becomes more accepted or like they do roll out the you know down craft we've recovered, I think it's going to create our science is going to have to up level and our religious orientations are going to have to up level.
Right, and it's interesting when you look at some of the research on how is science going to respond to disclosure and how is religion going to respond to disclosure.
Science does worse, it has a harder time with it.
Ironically, because in a lot of the religious narratives there's room for other beings there's, and the Vatican has proactively came out, you know, over the last 20 years yeah, basically saying like you can't limit god's creativity to earth.
Yeah, so they're.
They're like trying to get ahead of the curve because they know what's coming right.
But science, because it's we're so locked into kind of this materialistic, reductionistic view that the phenomena represents a bigger threat to kind of mainstream science than the phenomena does to religion.
Now, of course, the fundamentalists within the religious traditions across any denomination, not just Christian, they will have a hard time with it, right?
Because they will get be demonized, right?
So it's kind of like mainstream science and fundamentalist religion are not going to fare well with disclosure.
Right.
But, but, you know, religions, a lot of religions are, you know, kind of, and this is Kripel's point.
Kripel says, Jeffrey, that, you know, all religions essentially started with paranormal events.
They often, after a hundred, few years into their development, kind of denounce or ignore their paranormal roots or they mythologize them.
Yeah right, we're like oh, only Moses could do that.
We can't do that now.
Only Moses.
You know um, you know.
So paranormal experiences, you know.
Or you look at the, you know Fatima Of Portugal right, that whole event that happened, you know, and how you can interpret it through a Catholic, blessed Virgin Mary lens, or you can interpret it through a Ufological lens.
They're probably both valid frames to make sense of it there.
You know, because the Ufo phenomenon probably has manifested enough times over the years that it in a sense is the Virgin Mary, blessed Virgin Mary experiences, or in some sense beings from other dimensions, or maybe a very powerful feminine angelic presence, maybe the blessed virgin Mary herself right um, but there's also enough ufological elements to it that it seems like it's also that kind of event.
And so it's both in some important way.
I think one religion that would probably love disclosure is Scientology.
Yeah.
You know, I learned recently that J. Allen Hynek was hanging out with L. Ron Hubbard and they were like close friends, which is crazy.
Yeah.
Well, and the Mormons, too, the Mormons have this very complex cosmology, right?
Where you can go and be a god on your own planet, right?
You know, so they have a very galactic cosmology, right?
You know, or the Seventh-day Advocates, I believe, actually were founded by the founders were having contact with what they described as extraterrestrials.
And, you know, and so you see these kinds of things that are often not as well known or public um, but like, if you look up, like you know, Extraterrestrial And Seventh Day Avidus, I think you'll find that their founders were having like contact, and then it was the basis of that contact that inspired them to create a new denomination, you know, or even you know again, Mormonism with the, the golden plates, you know, and Joseph Smith right, like that you know, and him finding the golden plates and that becoming the basis of, you know,
the tablets um, of the Mormon religion, right.
So you know, religions are just rife with contact with non-human intelligences, you know, and so disclosure, basically, and I think this is what's interesting about the ET hypothesis.
You had the ET hypothesis as like kind of the main kind of interpretive framework in the 50s and 60s.
And then you had like John Keel, you had Valet, you had others, you know, coming along and saying, well, look, actually, I don't know if we're dealing with extraterrestrials as in flesh and blood because, these experiences people are describing are really friggin' weird.
And I don't know why a flesh and blood ET would go through the trouble or what, you know, like it doesn't make any sense.
And so the, that's when the extra dimensional or interdimensional hypothesis started to merge to try to account for the high strangeness that was happening, right?
And then when that started to be included, they started to see patterns between the high strangeness associated with UFO events with other paranormal activities and with religion and so forth and so on.
It's largely the reason that, I mean, the.
ET hypothesis is probably not the best explanation for 80% of what we're encountering, right?
Like probably the majority of what we're encountering is not flesh and blood beings from another planet.
Probably some of it is, but probably a majority of it's not.
And yet the extraterrestrial hypothesis remains the dominant interpretive frame, I think in large part because our culture is still a very scientific, materialist.
Yes.
And like for us to accept an interdimensional, kind of viewpoint is just, it's a non-starter, right?
So the best they could be would be flesh and blood beings from another planet.
And then you get the argument of like, well, they couldn't get here.
It's too far away.
Like, you know, but that's ridiculous because that's just based on our assumptions of our technology, right?
Like they seem to be able to manipulate time and space without any problem.
So why would, you know, 50 light years be an issue or 200?
Yeah, I think it's something we have to dive inward.
We have to look inward into the human brain and perception and How do you define how we perceive reality with our five senses?
And it's got to be something extra, something that we just perceive on a different wavelength than what we can normally perceive right now with our vision and our smell and our taste and our touch.
Totally.
And this is why I am launching this five year research project, which I mentioned to you before the super experiencer. project where inspired by people like Chris Bledsoe and then this other woman, Melinda Greer, who's a doctor, they both have a wide range of anomalous experiences in their life.
For Chris, you know, he had some young near-death experiences, like when he got shot.
Yeah.
And you often find that, that that experiencers, even when it starts much later in life, they often have had this near-death experience, which again, for me, is a signal of a separation event that their sort of bodies and that and that separation event seems to be an activation of these other modes of perception.
Right.
And again, you can use the protocols to do it or, you know, other things.
But so Chris and Melinda both have a wide range of anomalous experiences.
And I kept asking, why are some people.
Experiencing all these things?
And some people only experience ghosts, some people only experience nature elementals, some people only experience, you know, extraterrestrials?
Um, and so i'm i'm really curious about the perceptual modes that are available to us, and so the study is to look at super experiencers.
Like people experience a lot of different types of, and the first phase is a survey to get like 5 000 people to fill out a survey of their experiences from around the globe.
The second phase would be in-depth interviews.
And by in-depth, I mean, you know, like five to eight hour interviews of like, tell me as much as you can.
Tell me about this experience.
Tell me about it.
Like just get as much rich data of their experience of those different events over the course of their life.
And then doing a variety of psychometric assessments to establish that they're mentally sound and healthy and normal, that they're not delusional or fantasy prone or, you know, all the things that one would be concerned of.
So basically to establish they're just an average person, you know.
psychologically speaking, like there's no red flags.
And then the next phase, you know, a subset of them would go into the brain study and the subtle energy study to study their brains, like, you know, building on the work of Gary Nolan, you know, and kind of building the work, you know, Chris showed the, you know, work he's doing with Monroe and he had that picture with him having the cap on.
Yeah.
You know, so kind of like EEG.
And Chris is on the advisory board, as is Melissa.
So they're both part of my research project, right?
Wow.
And Gary Nolan is on it.
Oh, wow.
Peter Scalfish is on it.
You know, a lot of other names that you would likely recognize.
And so, because I want to try and understand, like, what's the relationship between the brain and these kinds of perceptions?
Yes.
And what's the relationship between the subtle energies that these people have and their relationship to their different bodies and the different senses associated with those bodies?
And see, because at my university, we have, Two labs we have a consciousness studies lab and we have a subtle energy lab.
So, I want to use the machinery and devices and instruments in both of those labs to study, you know, like a hundred people like Chris Bledsoe and see what patterns do we notice, what can we say about the way, you know, does the phenomena develop a particular kind of brain through ongoing interaction, or do some people have a particular kind of brain that enables them to experience this phenomenon?
How might we better research and kind of explore those kinds of questions?
Is it dormant in a lot of people and can it be activated somehow?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so by studying their life histories and like if, for instance, of, let's say, 100 super experiencers, I find that 80% of them have some kind of what I would call a separation event, right?
Of their subtle body from their physical body that occurs somewhere between their first 20 years.
Then that's a very interesting data point.
Like, okay, there's something about that that seems to help activate and develop access to these kinds of perceptions.
And psychedelics, taking psychedelics can be a separation event.
Because sometimes people take psychedelics and it kind of blows out their chakra system, blows out the meridians.
And in some cases, they've had to take years to rebuild their subtle energy system because the psychedelics just kind of like brought too much energy and kind of blew it out, like blew the circuits, literally.
So there's interesting examples of people having that kind of subtle energy illness.
So like if you took Chris Bledsoe and gave him a bunch of DMT or gave him a bunch of mushrooms, you could destroy his perception of this thing?
Psychedelics as Separation Events00:01:59
Possibly.
Or maybe amplify it, depending on like, how those ethnogens interact with the system.
He might have a more robust subtle energy system because of his ongoing interactions over the last 10 years, where he's able to handle it.
And this is why the esoteric traditions, they build up your subtle body system, right, through protocols and, you know, vegetarianism and, you know, vegetarianism often is really, yeah, that the eating meat, the heaviness of meats often seems to weigh down the bodies, the subtle bodies.
And so a lot of yogis and sadhanas in India and even in esoteric traditions will avoid eating meat as a way of making it easier to get out of body and go explore.
these realities through, you know.
Whoa.
That's so crazy.
We just had a Harvard medical student in here telling us how good meat was for you and how you live longer if you eat meat.
Well, and you probably do.
You just probably won't have as many out of body experiences.
That's funny.
Yeah.
I guess it's a price you got to pay.
Well, Sean, thank you so much for coming in here and enlightening us with this stuff.
tell people where they can find your work online or where they can get in contact with you?
Yeah, so two places.
You can go to the California Institute for Human Sciences, right?
So CIHS.edu, right?
So that's the university I'm with.
You can also go to exostudies.org, and I'm teaching a new course on entity encounters starting in April.
Right now I'm teaching a course on non-duality, looking at 10 different traditions and how they understand non-duality.
But those would be the two main places to find me.
And then my business website where I do consulting and coaching is Meta Integral, M-E-T-A-I-N-T-E-G-R-A-A, metaintegral.net or com or org.