Following the Healthy Brick Road, Interview with CMS Admin Dr. Oz | TRIGGERED Ep.333
Dr. Mehmet Oz and Donald Trump Jr. dissect CMS fraud, alleging a $2 trillion annual loss under Biden that enabled political patronage, contrasting it with Trump RX's Most Favored Nation pricing and AI-driven detection. They argue stopping fraud could double Medicare trust fund life expectancy while advocating for value-based care over volume. The discussion extends to banning federal funds for gender-rejecting procedures due to high recidivism rates and promoting agentic AI for rural health, concluding that systemic truth requires rejecting performative DEI in favor of patient safety and medical integrity. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Investing In America's Future00:01:38
Guys, welcome to another episode of Triggered.
We're going a little unconventional today.
We got Dr. Mehmet Oz, the head of the CMS working under Bobby Kennedy at HHS, the Health and Human Services in the government.
We're going to be talking about all things as it relates to fraud, AI, Trump RX, all of it.
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Fraud And Corruption In Healthcare00:07:50
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A little bit of a different show than normal, but I think a conversation that people have to hear and understand and a lot to learn.
Because every time I've spoken with you, Dr. Oz, great to have you on.
Thank you.
I'm like, wow, I didn't even know about some of these things.
So, you know, let's get into the big one first because I've covered it so extensively on the show.
The fraud around this country is insane.
I mean, it's the GDP of large nations, it seems.
And it does also seem that so much of it seems to come out In the healthcare space, whether that's Medicaid, whether it's hospice care.
I know you've been intimately involved in sort of discovering some of that, hopefully, by the time we're done with all of this.
But talk about how the system was able to get set up that people could siphon out billions, bad actors just stealing from the American taxpayer.
Well, let's put it in perspective because this is a topic that the president has spoken about because he focuses on the big problems and he emphasizes our need to address them.
And if you just look objectively at where the fraud is in America, you'd go to the biggest spender.
Who's the biggest spender?
Medicare, Medicaid.
Yeah.
It's about $2 trillion a year.
$2 trillion.
$2 trillion.
That's twice the defense budget when we're not at war.
And so the opportunity for fraudsters to get involved and harpoon the hippopotamus of Medicare and Medicaid is a great one.
And we have foreign governments involved in this, uh, foreign nationals in America, but we also have bad people in America don't share our values taking advantage of these programs.
So just to put some, some broader, uh, architecture on this during COVID, there was money that was literally thrown at people.
So easy to steal it.
You wouldn't even realize it was happening.
And that taught a lot of bad actors that they could come after the American people's, you know, safety net, Medicare, Medicaid, and get away with it.
And under the Biden administration, and this is what I'm saying is, you know, is widely appreciated, there was a overt effort to tell federal employees working at centers of Medicare and Medicaid where I am, that they didn't have to worry about fraud.
They needed to focus on enrolling people.
Get more folks lined up to participate and you'll do better.
And the reason I think, because I tried to get into why this would be so, because, you know, in general, you'd want to police the system while you're building a safety net.
If you sign somebody up for Medicaid, you must also, by federal law, give them information about voting.
So it's basically political patronage.
So this is not a flaw of the system.
It's a feature that they gutted the fraud, waste, and abuse programs within Medicaid, for example, which is the programs for poorer people, vulnerable people run by states.
And so the federal government actually, although we pay the bills, we don't audit where the money goes.
And so it's a perfect storm.
Governors could game the system or people who work under them.
They could extract billions of dollars from the federal tax rolls to put into care for illegal immigrants, for people aren't supposed to get Medicaid, for people had double or triple insurance coverage because they didn't care.
They're not paying for it anyway.
You and I are.
And so think about it this way.
You've got states like California running sloppy programs and less affluent states that are still blue states like New Mexico are paying the tab.
And that's just not fair in a federal system.
So, I mean, we've talked about it, obviously, from the fraud perspective, not just the fraudsters, but ultimately, you know, a kickback to the Democrat Party.
These are all Democrat voters.
They, you know, it's almost like the American version of what was going on with USAID.
Send a bunch of money to, you know, no show projects over there.
We kick it back to NGOs.
The NGOs donate to their Democrat counterparties.
You keep that going.
But so you're saying it's actually far more because it's not just a kickback scheme in terms of financial to the Democrat Party.
It's also basically a fake voter registration scam.
It's, imagine you were signing up people at an NRA convention to vote.
Who are you going to sign up?
Folks who tend to vote Republican.
If you want to get a lot of Democratic voters on board, go find out where the Medicaid patients are and sign them up to vote.
Now, again, it's clever politics, but, you know, in the end, all of us are hurt because people lose confidence in these precious programs that are so beautiful.
They work so well when well designed.
You know, your dad often says he loves and cherishes Medicare and Medicaid.
That's why he won't touch Medicare.
He wants these programs to thrive.
But we cannot afford to have them gutted.
The working families tax health legislation, for example, which was the most ambitious health program ever, perhaps, saved Medicaid.
I'll say that again.
President Trump saved Medicaid because he took out all the legalized money laundering that was going to build for trillions of dollars out of the system that would go into state coffers where there's no accountability.
And some of the things as you begin to read about and learn more about what the fraud is, these bad apples aren't going to just steal your money.
Think about it, Don.
If they steal your money, they'll steal your health.
They don't care.
They don't care about you.
They don't care if you die.
So take hospice.
These are programs built, started 40 years ago.
They ran fine for 35 years until COVID hit.
What was the deal?
You're at the end of your life.
You've got cancer.
We think you're going to die within a few months.
Six months was the number that was generally agreed on as the, as the, as the time that you would be expected to pass.
We're going to trade in your traditional health insurance to give you a better solution for hospice.
And by making that trade, the government actually saves a little money because they're not paying for unnecessary hospitalizations because you're going to die anyway.
But we make your life easier at the very end.
You die with dignity.
Give them some dignity.
Right.
So.
What ends up happening in California?
You get a bunch of doctors that you con, and they actually are, they're fraudsters.
They'll sign up people who are not dying.
And lie and say they're going to die.
How do I know that?
Because in California, you have hospices where the mortality rate is zero.
They have a better actuarial survival rate than you and I do today.
Like no one dies in these programs.
They're clearly lying.
And if you look at the records, you see that.
Then you have people who are.
Because if they die, you lose the cash flow associated with that person, right?
Plus.
They want them on hospice care for life.
And they do sign them up for life and they make money continually.
And it corrupts the system.
And the corruption doesn't just destroy the medical system, but you now have money flowing to organize criminal efforts.
Uh, the state government looks the other way.
They're getting money back for this in, in, in ways that we believe might be linked to, for example, well, that we'll talk about that in a second.
But there's a lot of possible reasons that doesn't get enforced, but it doesn't.
In 2022, the state auditor general in California tells Gavin Newsom, you have unmitigated fraud.
One third of all the hospices in the country are in Los Angeles, not California.
One third.
In LA.
Like, how many people are dying in LA?
Right?
So as we begin to get into this, we begin to realize that it's a well-oiled machine.
Everyone's getting paid.
Everyone's making money.
And that's not like a partisan position.
I imagine that's a Democrat position appointed probably by the governor who's pointing it out to the Democrat governor.
Exactly.
Which is why you would think they'd be acting on it.
And they take some very small steps.
They're going to, you know, take a few licenses away here and there.
But you have thousands of hospices, 1,800 that have now opened in California.
Shocking Food Habits Revealed00:11:07
So I'll just break news here on your podcast.
We've already delisted hundreds of hospices, no longer paying them.
And we're revoking their ability to charge us.
And we're going to ban the folks involved in these hospices for a decade because they're obviously involved in fraudulent care.
And here's the funny part.
Well, is there going to be accountability beyond that?
Because, I mean, this is, you know, theft at a very large scale.
I mean.
Well, I spent last, the dawn hours last Thursday in Los Angeles with Billy Asile, who's an excellent U.S. attorney in Los Angeles, appointed by this administration.
We went with a SWAT team and took out some of these fraudsters and in handcuffs, carted them off to jail.
They get arraigned and these folks are going to do prisons time.
So it's a completely A focus of the task force, something that the president announced at the State of the Union address a few weeks ago.
The next day, the vice president and I, vice president in charge of the task force, uh, rolled out announcement.
We have banned all durable medical equipment suppliers, new ones, from entering into the marketplace until we can fix what's going on there.
Durable medical suppliers, by the way, they sell you wheelchairs and canes.
We're in South Florida right now.
There are twice as many durable medical equipment suppliers in South Florida than McDonald's.
And it's not because Bobby's knocking out McDonald's.
It's because we've got so much fraud.
Although he's trying to try.
I mean, that's a different story.
And what I love is that there's a iconic picture.
Your dad tried to get Bobby to eat a bunch of junk food.
I was in that picture.
Oh, you're in it.
Yeah.
It's me.
It's me.
We were coming back from the UFC fight in New York.
And it's me, my father, Elon and Bobby.
And you know, you've, you've eaten with my father.
I mean, he, he eats like a blue collar American.
It is not a show.
That's what he does.
He's got his two Big Macs and multiple fries and he basically convinces Bobby and I hand my camera over to one of the guys.
You gotta get a picture of this because it's just, it's too funny.
And Bobby's eating one of these sandwiches.
And when the picture is so funny because his face is like, he was just like caught like a kid with his hand in the cookie jar.
It was amazing.
It was like a hostage photo.
He doesn't know what to do.
It was like the most viral photo of that week because it was just so funny.
The crazy thing is your dad replicates that weekly in the Oval Office.
So he'll pepper Bobby and I usually go to the meetings together.
So he'll, He'll first start off with, uh, you know, candy bars, that little candy jar he'll call it.
He'll hit the red button.
Yeah.
And then comes the diet soda pops, which is, your dad argues that diet soda is good for him because it kills grass.
It's poured on grass.
So therefore it must kill cancer cells inside the body.
So he'll try to, please.
I'm having to argue this right now.
You know, we were, we were on Air Force One the other day and I walk in there because he wants to talk about something and he's got an orange soft drink on his desk.
Fanta.
He drinks Fanta.
That's what I didn't want to say the brand name on the podcast.
He's got a Fanta on the desk and I say, are you kidding me?
So he starts to like sheepishly grin.
He goes, You know, this stuff's good for me.
It kills cancer cells.
And then he tells me it's fresh squeezed.
So how bad could it be for you?
Okay, okay.
But then.
Maybe he's onto something because I will say this.
I know a lot of guys pushing 80.
Not a lot that have his level of energy, recall, stamina.
Is he just the exception that proves the rule?
I'm not saying we got to adapt this, but maybe there's something there because, again, I see a lot of guys at 80 who can't think or walk.
You probably remember this, but in 2016, I remember it was just before the election.
And I offered for your dad and Hillary Clinton. to come on the show.
Yeah.
And just clear the air about health, because both were criticizing the others.
Of course.
And, uh, that, that week, uh, Secretary Clinton got sick, and she had to pull out of the show, and they want me to pull the, your dad from coming on.
And I said, well, you know, he's the nominee of the Republican Party, he's willing to come on and defend his health.
And if you remember.
Well, that was when she had, like, passed out in public.
So, uh, but so, but your dad had that medical record that looked like he had dictated it.
Yeah.
And so, so he comes on the show, and he, and God bless him, he brings the actual, a legitimate note from a doctor with all of his lab reports.
Yeah.
And I say, can I show these to people?
He's, yeah, you can have it, take it, share it.
So I read the note on, on the air, and he was in perfect health.
I mean, his testosterone, quite frankly, was through the roof, not taking any supplements.
Uh, and so as I look, as I went through this, it's, it's uncommon to see that healthy, a list of healthy, of labs of anybody, even if they're drinking this, you know, or eating unpopular, you know, non-healthy foods, I'll say.
But, uh, some of that's genetic, but some of it your dad argues is because when he's on the campaign trail, he doesn't want to get sick.
So he eats junk food, But it's food made in large reputable chains because they have quality control meals.
And there are times he doesn't eat like that.
He doesn't always eat junk stuff.
Now he can, he has that meatloaf at Mar-a-Lago.
Well, the best was when he was on, like, when he was trying to do, like, the Atkins diet.
And he'd have a, you know, a big old steak.
And that's, you know, that's great if you're doing all protein.
But then, you know, half a pound of ketchup on it.
And they'd be like, well, I'm just going to have one scoop of ice cream.
I'm like, no, no, no, no.
You're doing no carbs.
There's no just one scoop of ice cream for dessert.
It doesn't work that way.
Well, without the ice cream, that's not a bad idea.
You know, Bobby's on that diet now.
He eats steak with sauerkraut or some fer I mean, get your dad to do that for a while.
I wonder what happened.
Maybe he'd get into a bad mood.
I can't tell.
You know, but food is sort of, that's his thing.
You know what I mean?
He doesn't have, he doesn't drink.
He doesn't do drugs.
He never did, never tried it.
And so he always jokes when he pushes that button for the Diet Coke and the candy, uh, the big bowl of candy, you know, he's like, that's my alcohol.
And I was like, okay, you know, there's some merit to that.
You know, we had the new dietary guidelines that came out and, uh, we sat in the back before we went out to do the press conference and Caroline, you know, had gone through all the top possible questions you might have me and Bobby and, and she, so we're on stage and the first question, of course, none of us expected, which was, what about alcohol?
And I turned to Bobby and said, you should take that question.
He goes, I'm not taking that question.
You know, I'm an AA.
I'm not taking the alcohol question.
And Caroline said, well, she's not going to take it.
She's pregnant.
So I took the question and I, I do believe this to be a case.
I don't drink much.
And your dad, of course, doesn't drink at all, which I do think is a very healthy approach, uh, to, but for a lot of Americans, alcohol is a social lubricant.
Yeah.
And there's nothing healthier than having a good time with your friends, as long as no one's getting hurt.
Yeah, I heard that answer, and I was like, you know what?
It was, it was very unconventional, and yet, I think it actually is very much right.
You know, as someone, you know, drank too much in my twenties, and, you know, as a kid, uh, you know, there was, there's a point where it can be way too much, but you're right.
For the average person, you know, a glass or two of wine, whatever it may be, beer to, like, It changes that dynamic and that sort of happiness that comes from it.
I'm actually a believer in that because there are a lot of people that are just, especially these days when younger people are just stuck on their phones all the time.
They don't have the social norms that we grew up with.
It's a lot harder for them to converse.
And so I think there's a component to that.
There's a lot of people who celebrate around alcohol.
And if you go to places where people live a long time, like Sardinia, the Blue Zones, they will sit around a bunch of 80, 90 year old men overlooking these beautiful mountains and the heights of Sardinia.
They'll have tiny, nitty gritty glasses of their Yeah, that's a problem.
That's a problem.
But if you're staying with a bunch of friends, it makes more sense.
And I think folks shouldn't feel that's a good thing.
You shouldn't drink just to do that.
Yeah.
But it's understandable and defensible.
But your dad's discipline along those lines.
And I do want to pay some credit to him.
I mean, I've had enough meals with him where he's not eating.
I mean, the food at Mar-a-Lago is top tier food.
Oh, yeah.
So, you know, he does, that's, that I think is more of a typical diet.
Yeah.
And I think folks will point to that and say, well, that's part of it.
But I think his biggest asset is his curious.
Yeah.
I mean, he'll call me at all bizarre hours, as I'm sure he does you as well, and have questions.
Yeah, I think even if he's not going to adhere to a perfect diet himself, I think he wants people to at least have the knowledge.
And, you know, if you go back, you look at the food pyramid, all these things that we were taught as kids, it really was always upside down and broken, largely paid for by large corporations.
Yeah.
And so just getting that information out there can change a lot for a lot of people.
Yeah.
And it has.
And I think.
We just got all the hospitals in America, sent a letter to them saying we want you to adopt this food pyramid approach to the hospital foods.
You know, hospital, when I was training at Columbia, when you go to the ICU, you cannot leave the ICU because the patients are too sick.
So you have to eat the hospital food.
So all the residents, it's just the senior residents will warn you, don't eat the food.
You'll get sick.
They tell the residents that.
And, and fair enough, most of the food that we serve in hospitals, it, you know, it's pejorative to say your food tastes like hospital food.
Yeah.
And there's a great, uh, experiment now being done at Tampa General.
And Bobby and I just, like the Secretary of Kennedy and I just went down to Miami to, to launch this program at the, the, the Nicholas Children's Hospital there.
But they're a, they were able to, they're making bespoke food for people in hospitals and it's not costing them more money.
Because you throw a third of hospital food away anyway.
Yeah.
But imagine that we're giving people in, in hospitals real quality food.
Imagine kids in schools.
Yeah.
I was going to ask you the next question, obviously.
Yeah.
Kids in schools, fatter than they've ever been before.
I know it's less your world, but, you know, in the overall HHS world, uh, is there a way to work with the Department of Education to be able to bring this and implement it to young kids?
Because I think also there's a habitual component of this.
If you, if you grow up eating it right, it's just sort of natural.
There's ways to do that.
You know, not everyone can go to Whole Foods every day and get, you know, the $97 organic chicken, whatever it may be.
But there, there are basic habits that can be formed.
And if you start them early enough, they're just sort of natural and you don't even think about the other stuff.
Well, we infantilize taste buds.
We, we literally make your taste buds that of a three-year-old.
Yeah.
If we don't teach your taste buds in you to eat more sophisticated meals.
And we have done the opposite in our school system.
And it's actually Department of Agriculture.
It's Brooke Rollins group that we're working with more closely.
And this is a major initiative of Secretary Kennedy is to get the school meals addressed.
Let me give you a good example.
This is going to shock everybody.
But because there was this dishonest narrative that whole milk was bad for you, people who were in charge took out the fat.
Now, I don't know if you've tried skim milk Well, I drank it for years until I actually started doing some of the research and seeing it myself.
It's like, wait a minute, the fat's actually better for you than what they jack these things up with to create the flavor, which is ultimately carbs.
Again, another thing was just totally, totally backwards.
To get kids to drink their milk, a dairy product that's now skimmed, they add chocolate syrup.
Total calories are the same as the whole milk, but now you have skimmed milk, which is basically all carbs, because if you take the fat out, you'll have the carbs.
Then you add chocolate syrup.
Now it's more carbs.
And you teach kids that's, so that very sugary flavor is the norm that you should expect with the beverage.
And people, when they drink their calories, their brains don't register it.
That's the big problem with soft drinks, is it tricks your brain It thinks, but your brain's too smart.
And your taste buds are wise as well.
They say, wait a minute, you gave me something that tastes sweet, like if it's a, if it's a diet soda, and yet my brain didn't get calories.
So I want you to go back and find calories.
The Brain Trick Of Sugar00:04:59
The reason nuts in every study ever done, people eat nuts, actually lose weight.
They don't gain weight despite the calories of nuts is because nuts have nutrients.
They're baby trees.
They're tree eggs.
And so your brain says, my gosh, you gave me nutrients.
I don't have to keep eating.
That's why, Don, when I travel, I always keep nuts in my pocket.
Everyone should.
Carried around with you.
It's logistically easy to cart with you.
I soak my nuts.
You should try that.
And the reason for that is you germinate the nuts.
Like put almonds in water.
They plump up.
They become alive again.
You reawaken them.
Like if a tree dropped the nut right into the soil, it would begin to germinate.
So try it.
Soak your nuts.
So, so you'd mentioned some of these health habits.
It was interesting.
I was in Eastern Europe last week and I'm driving through the streets and I'm seeing and everyone's smoking, but everyone's skinny.
Yeah.
It's, it's almost the opposite.
In America, you see someone smoking today.
You're like, who, who still smokes?
And yet you see a huge weight problem.
Talk about that, you know, cause it does seem sort of ironic.
I mean, there's almost like an appetite suppressing component of that.
Are you better off being a bit of a smoker within reason and, and not fat or obese or not?
You're, you're definitely better off not smoking.
Smoking has a whole series of other problems and pathologies, but smokers know that they will stay thin if they smoke.
That's why many women used to smoke.
It was, it was part of the women emancipation So, this is getting back to, you know, the early, uh, years of advertising.
This is, you know, 20s and 30s, 100 years ago.
Um, and it was very effective, but there are no alternatives to smoking like these, uh, these heated cigarettes that are widely available in Europe.
They're not vaping.
They're, they're actually, they're, they don't exist in America that they're going to launch soon.
These are small little pouches of, uh, of, of nicotine.
They're steamed.
Yeah.
Um, in, in these pens.
So you get the nicotine, but not the carcinogenic?
Exactly.
And it's cleaner, and it's actually quite popular as an alternative to cigarettes.
Vaping are, are, some of the vapes are made in, you know, in China, so we don't know what's really in them, so we have concerns about them.
But there are other ways of getting nicotine that gives you the boost.
So, obviously, half my viewers might.
Yeah, you're pissed.
I have one in right now.
What, what, what do you think about, uh, the nicotine pouches, uh, as it, as it relates to health and overall, uh, where, where it's so popular, it feels, especially with, with younger people these days, uh, I think they're healthy enough, but let me just make one sort of overarching comment about substances in general.
You should never be dependent on an external substance to be the best you can be.
Yeah.
But all of us enjoy coffee, one of the pouches that you have in your, in right now that you can dab or use.
You don't want to destroy your gums with, you know, the, some of these products, but the ones that are out there now are made in ways that, that protect you in what, you know, enough.
And so I'm not a purist about this.
I just want you to recognize that every once in a while, you should do a little bit of a fast, so to speak.
Yeah.
You know, go without anything in your body.
Make sure you know what that feels like, and then you can go back to having your coffee in the morning.
And I bring that up because coffee is something that we all accept as normal, but if you have to have a coffee when you get up, you're addicted to the caffeine.
I actually went through that myself where I was drinking like north of a thousand milligrams of caffeine a day.
Oh my gosh.
I'd wake up, I'd have some sort of two or three energy drinks, whatever it is throughout the day, and I My mood, you know, it was great for a little bit, but 45 minutes later, you just sort of crash and then you try to double it up and you just get progressively grumpier.
So I literally cut it almost all out, other than like a morning coffee or something like that.
And it took a little bit of time, but once I got back to like a normal level of caffeine intake, I felt exponentially better throughout the day.
I would do a little experiment.
If you're listening right now, try this out.
Tomorrow morning, see if you can go without caffeine.
If you get a headache or you just can't go, you're addicted.
So act like an addict.
Just stop.
Cold turkey is usually fine.
You might have to taper down.
Just, you know, make sure you can go for a couple days with nothing else out in your body.
That's probably, that's true for food too.
You should do a fast once a month.
Just, you know, go without food, uh, for most of the day, at least till the evening, and just make sure you know what that feels like.
And you mentioned taste buds before.
One of the beauties of fasting is you, you awaken your taste buds.
Once again, sweet stuff tastes sweet.
Otherwise, you get addicted to the feeling that everything has to have, have sweets to it.
And that's one of the major drivers of obesity in America.
And this was the biggest lie of the food pyramid.
Just to finish that topic.
We dishonestly, I say that because there were clinical trials that did not prove what was claimed.
Yeah.
And the NIH right now is reproducing all the fundamental studies because so many of them were dishonest.
And when you build an entire literature around a health topic on a faulty chassis, a bad foundation, it collapses under the weight of that because people get sicker.
Global Access To Better Drugs00:14:41
They don't get better.
So you talked about, you know, not wanting to be dependent on anything in the long term.
What are your thoughts on some of the stuff going on right now?
You see it every day.
My Instagram feed just gives it to me every other post at this point.
All of the stuff as it relates to peptides.
Because it does feel like that has made a huge, huge difference for a lot of people, but there is sort of a component of dependency on that.
Is that different because you're perhaps supplementing something you're not able to get elsewhere?
Well, let's broaden the topic to hormone replacement therapy in general.
Yeah.
So, one of the biggest mistakes. in women's health has been this, this, this, this honest narrative that hormones taken during menopause are dangerous.
There's precious little evidence to support that.
Whatever evidence there is, we believe be mitigated by taking bioidentical hormones.
Marty McCary, who runs the FDA, is taking a strong stance on this.
I think he's absolutely right.
And so if you're a woman, and this starts when you're in your forties, because you start, progesterone is like Valium for the female brain.
Think about it.
When you get pregnant, the first thing that goes is your progesterone goes up because it keeps you calm and tolerant of this big thing invading your body, right?
Having had five kids, I'm not, I'm not always sure there's such Tolerant when they're pregnant, but I'm not allowed to say that out loud.
Maybe too late.
Until the third trimester, anyway.
After that, it's all your fault.
At some point, it just becomes John's fault.
Why did you do this to me?
But Valium does tend to come, women, and when they're Valium, I'm sorry, progesterone acts like Valium in doing that.
When your progesterone starts to come down in your 40s and 50s, you become less tolerant of the BS that you tolerated.
That's why most divorces in the, in, in, once you get to age 50 are instigated by women, not men.
Because they say, well, you're a jerk.
You've been a jerk our whole married life.
I'm not tolerating anymore, and they walk.
And so, The ability to give women back progesterone or estrogen, which deals with the hot flashes, the inability to sleep, um, the, a lot of the irritability, the brain fog, fog, uh, also is helpful.
And women stop making testosterone as well.
So the libido drops.
So you give women these hormones at, at a critical time in their life and it smooths out the menopause process for at least a third of women.
Yeah.
And so the same goes to men.
Men make less testosterone.
Uh, they stop making growth hormone and they're now peptide.
Many of these developed in Eastern Europe and by the Russians.
They use them as Performance enhancing tools.
And there was a fair amount of research done, but again, it's Eastern European and Russian research, not studied under traditional American oversight.
But it doesn't mean that that doesn't work.
No, they were pretty good at what they did at the time.
Now, there's a way to overdo it.
Like everything else.
East German women's team basically turning into men.
You know, it's a little different, but it's a big deal.
I think one of the things, you know, the guys I know, now these are generally successful guys, they can afford to do some of these things.
It has sort of priced itself out of, uh, the average, you know, guy's paycheck.
Yeah.
Uh, there's the issue of compounding and be able to basically have, you know, generics of this version, which I think also eliminates sort of the black market side of this where you don't exactly know what you're getting and probably not getting exactly what you're being told.
You know, are there efforts to make this more affordable so that everyone has that same chance to be able to utilize these things to optimize their bodies?
Yes.
But I would argue the myopic approach to this space by conventional medicine.
Frankly, people like my pedigree, I mean, I'm professor emeritus at Columbia.
We have been disdainful of this area of research.
And it is an unfortunate blind spot that I do think academic medicine is engaging it now, but you have to have researchers, high caliber folks, go out and get funding and study how these things work.
For example, does testosterone help men if they have low testosterone?
Absolutely yes.
But a lot of the low T ads are for people whose testosterone is not low.
And so giving extra testosterone.
Or pure testosterone without the other things.
Exactly.
You know, it's great for a little while, then you become dependent, you stop producing natural testosterone.
So there's also the peptides that'll just stimulate your body's natural way of making it themselves, which is probably better because you don't become as dependent.
And some of these medications, as you know, that stimulate growth hormone, for example, are more natural ways of keeping you, because growth hormone is the ultimate way that you'll stay feeling youthful.
But what's the best way of generating growth hormone?
Sleep.
And so if you're not sleeping well and not doing the other things in your life, diet, exercise, et cetera, that are helpful for a youthful life.
Just, you know, mainlining some of these peptides is not going to overcome that.
So on top of that, if there's still a problem, I do think they make sense.
And folks who have means definitely seek the amount and they get good results oftentimes because they have high quality docs involved in the process.
There's this whole sort of side, not black market, it's like sideshow that there's not being embraced by traditional medicine.
And we need to change that.
This is again, getting back to this broad concept of food.
Why is it that we're forcing medical schools to teach students about nutrition.
And I'll tell you something that I don't talk about much.
I ran for student body president at, in, in, in Penn, on, on my campaign promise was to put a nutrition class in the school.
Now, Penn is a top tier medical school.
We should have had a nutrition class, but we didn't.
We only learned about these rare African, you know, Koshakor and, you know, Berry Berry, these weird, you know, nutritional deficiencies.
Why is that important?
If you don't learn about something in medical school as a doctor, you don't think it matters.
Because that was the system.
Put them on medication, you have a patient for life.
It's cash flow associated.
There's a lot of.
And you're disdainful of nutrition because if it was important, they would have taught me.
So obviously, it doesn't matter.
I'd rather give you drugs.
So we pander, we say, oh, yeah, you'll eat right, but what does that really mean?
Teaching people culinary nutrition, where we actually push you as a patient to learn how to make something with beans in it and learn how to eat them and replace some of the junk that you're eating.
And that's affordable, by the way, if you use some of these high quality sources of protein, that actually matters.
But if you never teach anybody, you don't have that until you.
create a system that's corporatized.
And that's what ends up happening.
You privatize the profits, you socialize the costs.
You make and make money as a food manufacturer, all kinds of junky stuff that is designed to titillate someone's palate.
But when people get sick eating that food, the system pays for it, not you.
Yeah.
And we can do better than that.
And that's a major part of the Maha movement.
It makes it easier to be healthy in America.
It's why moms are complaining today, and you, Don, you hear this all the time, that it's harder for them to raise healthy kids than it was for their moms to raise them.
So you see it today.
You know, young kids, the testosterone scores of kids that should be north of 1,000 are the equivalent of a man in their 70s and the 50s.
You see these numbers, you're like, how is that even possible?
I mean, and obviously there's got to be some environmental factors to it.
There's got to be, you know, it's a whole hodgepodge of things.
Certainly food is a big part of it.
Yeah.
And that part, I actually believe we have it on America's radar screen, but they're still going to be people who need medications.
And this is a topic that has been on your dad's radar for a long time.
And I'll just put it out there right now.
The argument he'll make in private is why are we paying three times more for the exact same drugs made in American factories oftentimes than the Europeans are paying for that?
And so he tried to address this in the first term.
It's one of the first things that I remember he brought a lot of us, Secretary Kennedy, me, and a bunch of the pharma guys together early on.
And he said, you guys are going to have to fix this.
No longer are we going to tolerate global freeloading.
Other countries have to pay for this.
You're talking about most favored nations' pricing, right?
I mean, that's a really big deal.
And I saw those stats too.
It's like the guy in America buying insulin, spending hundreds of dollars a month, in Europe, eight bucks.
And it's like, wait, this is an American company manufacturing America.
Like the American taxpayer was subsidizing the health of European nations while getting screwed themselves.
It never made any sense.
And I know in the first term, they sort of took care of it on insulin.
But there's a lot of other things that people have to deal with there.
Talk about a little bit of that because I know that's been a huge, huge push that, you know, and again, with our media, no one's going to give them credit when you guys get something done.
You've learned this, you know, probably the hard way as well.
You can do all sorts of great things, but if no one hears about it, they don't even know.
They may not even know these things are available to them.
Talk about that most favored nation because that is feeling, you know, it seems like that's trillions of dollars over, you know, a few years of savings to the American taxpayer that no one's even heard about yet.
And it's a moral hazard when we can't afford our medications.
Let me give you a stats going to blow your mind.
One in three Americans, when they go to the pharmacy to pick up their medications prescribed by a doctor, leave empty handed because they can't afford the medication.
That should never happen.
And so in the Trump administration, there is a all of government approach to this.
So working with commerce because overseas pricing matters here, working with health and human services, working with every facet of government.
We have gone out and negotiated with the biggest drug companies out there and done something never imaginable.
And it only happened, I'm confident, because the president was loud and clear.
We will not tolerate this.
So either peacefully do the right thing.
Be, you know, be, uh, fair in your pricing.
And it's called MFN, most favored nation pricing, which means if you sell a drug for a price in you, in the, in Europe, you must sell it for that price or less in America.
And that has now become the norm.
No one thought it was possible, but it's like NATO.
What happened to NATO?
The president said, guys, we're, you're defending yourselves against a foreign threat.
Everyone's got to ante up.
We can't just be America paying for Europe.
And so all the European countries increased to 5% the amount of their GDP they were dedicating to defending themselves.
Well, guess what?
Cancer is a threat too.
It's an internal threat.
So we're doing the same thing.
You guys all have to ante up an increased percentage of your GDP.
And we will still pay a lot.
But we're not going to pay unfairly more.
The American people aren't going to be mistreated.
No more global freeloading.
And now we have gotten countries like England, which is one of the toughest negotiators.
They have agreed they're going to pay more for their drugs.
We're going to pay less.
Globally, we're going to have access to better drugs.
We're not going to cut out innovation.
So the president, again, very wisely protected the innovative American companies making these life-saving drugs.
By getting Europe and in Asia to pay more, letting Americans pay less, but it's a sustainable program.
And you know what?
I'll tell you, this is a, you know, inside baseball, but it's critical.
You look at a pharma CEO in the eyes and you say, it's over.
We're not going to pay three times more than you're charging our people.
And if they, as they're charging other countries.
And they all said sort of the same thing.
You know, one day we knew you would come knocking.
We're not going to play with the fire that the president represents because then he'll come after us.
We'll make a deal.
And they have God bless them.
Every one of them came to the table.
And did the deal as they should have done years ago.
Why it took this many years to get a powerful enough person in office to be able to push this to the finish line is shocking, but at least it's happened.
How do you lock that in in perpetuity, right?
Because I could see, hey, we all understand how DC works, the special interests, the pharma lobbies, whatever it is.
Trump leaves office and you get a Democrat.
It's like, hey, we're going to make a big, sizable campaign contribution, but we want to be making trillions of dollars here on the back end again.
How do you lock that in?
Because that seems like, you know, that's a generational shift for the better for America.
How do you make sure you codify that into law so that they can't just go back to their old ways the second they're like, you know, go back to someone who doesn't care, is in on the grift, whatever it may be?
It is an existential fear that we should have that all this great progress will revert back to the way it was a year and a half ago if we don't continue to win these elections.
I do not believe there's a way for these, these rules to stay in place unless either we codify them, which means we get Congress to ratify them to last beyond this president.
Now, again, let's be very transparent.
The president did what he promised to do and these deals are intact throughout his administration.
Correct.
What he's trying to do now is protect the future administrations so that these companies will not go back to business as usual.
So either we're going to codify it through Congress or we're going to have to push the companies to make other deals to protect future administrations.
But this is a generational opportunity for us to fix healthcare in America.
It's one of the reasons that President Trump is so focused on this area.
Wait a minute.
Why am I getting phone calls at odd hours?
Because he's thinking about it a lot and he's focused and he's not getting credit for it.
And he should, but these kinds of advances aren't going to normally happen.
So let's not waste this opportunity.
Let's make sure that most favorite nation Pricing of drugs that's fair for Americans is the rule of the land going forward.
Let's make sure that we're smart about some of the other changes that have to happen within healthcare, like taking the fraud, waste and abuse out.
Don, it's a hundred billion dollars a year we're spending a fraud.
If I just put that numbers that you might make it more translatable, if you're worried about Medicare being there for you when you retire, which most young people are, we would double the life expectancy of the Medicare trust fund if we stopped defrauding Medicare.
So we're, these are, So we have affordability toward most favor, most favor nation.
We have affordability because we're driving, uh, fraud out of the system.
We have affordability because we're making people healthier, which remember, 80% of the money we spend on healthcare is because of chronic illnesses that are caused by the lifestyle that we have allowed to be fomented by folks who profit off illness.
And all of the friction in the system is profit.
Think about this.
There's probably 150 million, 150 million people in America who make it a fortune because they have friction in the healthcare system and they take tolls every time they open up a, A little opportunity for you to get healthy again, they tax you.
So we don't, we want that gone.
And the biggest way of changing the old system that has basically created the largest healthcare system in the world.
And we are at risk of basically being a large healthcare system with a small country attached is AI.
Yeah.
And let me ask you a question.
When was the last time you saw a movie about AI with a happy ending?
Never happens.
The Terminator.
The Terminator, right.
That's the happiest to guess.
The Armageddon and destruction of humanity.
We have got to change the narrative.
AI has risks associated with it.
But if we can get people to appreciate that AI can be incredibly deflationary, incredibly effective at saving money, why?
Because it improves quality of care.
Yeah, so I imagine, I mean, maybe talk a little bit about your role at CMS.
AI As A System Disruptor00:15:41
I don't know that people understand exactly what that is, but what it can do to help prevent that fraud.
And then maybe the integration of AI.
In preventing the fraud again, because that's all upside back to the balance sheet to keep this going, but also then to optimize outcomes later on.
I mean, because you're right, the popular thing these days, AI doomsday scenario and everything, but it can actually be utilized to implement so much of what you're doing that an actuary, an accountant, a couple guys crunching numbers can't possibly deal with the sheer level and volume of data that's out there to be able to figure out where these things are, both from the bad on the fraud side and the good.
from the health benefit side.
You make an excellent point, but let me ask you sort of a higher level question.
Why is it that AI is such an important part of detecting bank fraud?
The reason is not just because it's better at churning numbers.
Bank managers don't think like fraudsters.
Yeah.
So if you're trying to catch a fraudster, you've got to kind of find someone who thinks like them.
And there's a natural disconnect.
So when banks began using AI to catch fraudsters because AI can think like a fraudster, it began to think ahead of fraudsters.
They shut it down before it started.
Yeah.
We have to do that in healthcare.
I get to administer Medicare and Medicaid.
The people I hire are not good at fraud.
They don't come in the government to be fraudsters.
So you've got these.
They assume people are being honest dealers and no one's going to game the system.
And even if they suspect bad apples out there, they don't think the way they think.
These guys are so reprehensible.
Like you would never, never let someone die to make money off them.
But these assholes, I'm sorry, these jerks do that.
It's okay.
They're assholes.
It's fine.
And they are more than willing to weaponize that and take advantage of us.
So they will, they will work with foreign governments.
Oftentimes they are foreign nationals.
They flee back to the native country.
So we're playing in a very different game.
AI allows the healthcare system to get ahead of where the fraud is, to think about where they're going next and shut them down.
The same way it prevents fraud in banking, it can prevent fraud in healthcare.
But the bigger opportunity for us is not fraud, it's abuse and waste.
If we can get to you and connect with you about things that are important to your well-being and nudge you to make wise decisions, you'll be healthier and it'll save us money.
I'll give you one concrete example.
So if you're on Medicare, older folks over 65, you get a free, free Annual wellness visit.
At no charge to you, you can see a doctor and get them to examine you and give you advice about your health.
What percentage of Americans actually take this?
Less than half.
Why?
Because they think they're healthy.
But Don, we have claims data.
I know if you're healthy or not.
And it turns out, although you think you're healthy, you're actually sicker than the people who take their free annual wellness exam.
So what do I do?
I've got to convince people who think they're immortal.
They think they're Superman who are not getting advice from a doctor about their illness to actually participate.
So for the first time ever, we are actually paying technology companies to develop apps to reach out to the American people and meet them where they are.
So if you're worried about you know, some health problem.
You don't have to guess or run away from a doctor.
I'll come to you in the form of an app.
I'll use an avatar.
I'll use a gentic AI and I'll be able to connect with you about stuff that's important that you might not otherwise want to deal with.
But with my help and AI, you'll start to connect with us.
I need to talk more to the American people.
Medicare and Medicaid are the agency your dad put me in charge of.
We are the insurance company for 170 million Americans.
If I could get them to think differently about Their obligation almost to be healthy, because it's your most patriotic thing you can do.
Stay healthy.
You'll be there for all of us.
Well, it fixes all the other problems in the system, right?
If you prevent someone from ever actually getting sick, you're not spending hundreds of thousands of dollars per individual to keep them healthy.
And this is going to blow your mind, but it's really critical and cool when you understand it.
If we could get the average American to feel so healthy, so vibrant, so strong that they want to actually work one year longer, instead of retiring up to 35 years of service, they go 36 year, that is worth Wow.
The productivity of the American people is so powerful that just one more year of work deals with a lot of our budget issues.
So the real opportunity is what we unleash from getting people healthy, which is why allowing AI to meet you where you are.
So critical.
Here's my prediction.
A year from now, we're going to start launching Agentic AI.
What does that mean?
Instead of me sitting back as Medicare, Medicaid and waiting for you to get sick and call me, we're going to reach out to you.
Telecom companies are doing this now.
So we're going to reach out and say, hey, Don, you know, Uh, you're on this program.
I noticed you didn't do this or you didn't take this appointment or you didn't get that test based on what we know about you.
And you've let me look at your medical records because, you know, we're making that easy to happen.
Now you own your records.
By the way, you paid for them.
You own them.
You should use them.
Give them to whoever you want and hide them from whoever shouldn't see it.
You've given me your records based on this.
You ought to do these three things.
And I'm going to avoid you getting an illness, maybe even Alzheimer's.
So you have now years more productive life to build value in America, help America be more productive as a nation.
That's the future that we're going to unlock.
And I mean, I would think that actually has an exponential sort of effect as well, because you talked about Alzheimer's.
Someone with Alzheimer's doesn't just take that person out.
It takes out multiple other people in, perhaps in the family who then have to care for this person.
So, I mean, it's really a, you know, a multiple hit.
You know, in all the interviews I've done, no one has actually picked up on that fundamentally important observation.
It's not just a sick person, but you're dragging the people who love them out of the system as well and destroying their quality of life.
The caregiver burden is massively important.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Alzheimer's is a great example because we have a blood test now.
That can predict that within 10 years you will develop Alzheimer's.
It's not 100%, but it's darn good.
If I could give you that test and you would know that you're going to become a burden to your family in 10 years, would you change your life?
Would you take precautions?
Yeah.
And maybe your family members may help you with that.
Exactly.
They're part of the solution, by the way.
That actually exists.
The question is, are we willing to give this test now?
And I'm a little nervous because until we are confident. that we have tools to dramatically change that natural history, we're going to scare a lot of people.
We believe if we gave that test to all seniors, one in three would test positive.
Wow.
Now that's also possibly a good news item because if the lifestyle changes that we now believe to be effective, more effective than drugs even, based on a series of studies from top notch doctors around the country, if we can start to implement that into the programs we offer in Medicare, for example, and dramatically change that natural history, I mean, Imagine the productivity we would unleash, the valuable years of extra quality of life and the reduction of pain.
That gives me goosebumps to think of that opportunity, but it only really becomes possible if we can meet you where you are and we need AI to do that, which is why right now we're in an existential problem.
We've got people who don't trust AI.
Everything they're hearing in the media scares them appropriately.
We've got every day more bad news about how AI could destroy us, but the other side of that story, the power to do good isn't being And you can never get behind the eight ball on that.
Once you lose that race, you get to a point you can never catch back up because it's just, it feeds off of itself.
It is the biggest opportunity we have and it's the biggest risk we're facing.
And the administration is very aggressively trying to do that balancing act, but there needs to be an honorable discussion about this.
And just because of who your dad is, I'm concerned people aren't willing to have it.
Whereas this is an American problem.
Trump derangement syndrome will make you take a logical thing and make it not so logical.
And blind us to real fears that all of us, red and blue, should be worried about.
So if you're running Medicare, Medicaid right now, what is the most urgent part of those programs that needs that cleanup?
What can we implement right away to be able to, again, extend this out so those young people who are paying into these systems forever actually get that benefit from them?
The biggest opportunity. in healthcare in America is to pay people because they provide value, not because they provide services.
Historically, the best way for me to pay you is to say, Hey, Don, you're a heart surgeon.
I'm a heart surgeon.
Take me.
I'm a heart surgeon.
I got paid per procedure.
Now, if I did an inappropriate operation, I got paid too.
If I had a bad outcome, I got paid too.
The most expensive thing in healthcare is bad quality care because I pay someone who's not able to do a good job or did it inappropriately, unethically.
I pay them anyway.
Then I pay someone who's high quality to fix the problem.
And then I got to pay for the downstream complications.
There's a Turkish proverb.
It takes one fool to throw a coin in a well and 99 wise men to pull it back up again.
That's what we're dealing with in healthcare.
If we could shift everything to just paying for value.
Only pay if you provide outcomes that are good for the American people, for you as an individual, it would dramatically change all the incentives.
Maybe talk about that in sort of the form of also insurance, because there seems to be a serious malalignment of how these things work.
I mean, I see the stories or I hear it from friends.
You know, they go in, you know, I needed eight stitches.
They got a bill for $15,000.
Straight stitches.
You know, like I've given myself stitches.
It's not like I'm not saying, like, you know, I'm not a doctor.
I don't pretend to be, but I was like, you know, I was just in a bad spot.
This is what I could do.
Not $15,000 worth of work.
And yet, if they go, well, I don't have insurance, I'll just pay cash.
Oh, that'll be $300.
How is that possible?
How have these sort of disincentives been created?
Because ultimately, the insurance side is either paid for by the other people on those programs in the form of higher premiums or ultimately backstopped by the American taxpayer.
How come you can't have most favorite nations in that aspect as well?
Uh, because, you know, it seems like in this case, the hospitals are just taking advantage of people paying insurance because there's too many bureaucrats, too many middlemen throughout the process.
Your dad, if you really want to get me started, ask you about transparency.
Yeah.
Uh, we have a proposal to Congress, uh, that we believe is critically important to provide the transparency that we've been not talking about since your dad's first administration.
And the reason it's important is what you just said.
If you're going to go buy a car, And people don't tell you what it costs before you buy it.
You can't make a wise decision.
Yeah.
We remove the market forces of the purchaser.
If you don't inform people about what the opportunities are, you disintermediate the market system from the healthcare system and people can charge whatever they want.
And so if you provide transparency, if a hospital says this is what it costs to get stitches, it's $300 pay now and you get the stitches.
That's great.
But if you don't get told that number and they know they can balance bill you $15,000, And eventually put you in the poorhouse over this, even though they don't want to, they'll do it because everyone else is doing it.
It corrupts the system, which is why we are demanding transparency and we will start finding hospitals starting now.
Just this month, we have the rules in place to be able to go after hospitals who don't exchange information fairly and who don't actually provide transparency on these topics.
And some of them are smaller hospitals.
It's hard for them to provide transparency, but enough's enough.
We as a nation have to be able to at least tell people what we're going to charge them for, like any other sector of the U.S. economy.
So, who are the bad actors in that?
I mean, like if you specifically had to pick out a middleman, a contractor, a billing shop, who are the people that are really gaming that system and turning that into an exorbitant profit center?
Because how do you attack those individuals?
Because I can't imagine, it's just not one place, right?
It's got to be sort of along the chain.
There are 15 middlemen, most of whom probably aren't adding all that much value, but everyone's getting paid.
Right.
So, as you describe it, it sounds like a flaw in the system.
But for people in the system, it's a massive feature, right?
Anytime I create friction in a system like this, I, I make sure that there's profit that's extracted.
So the folks who are involved in particular with, uh, the designing of hospital bills and the recollection of those expenses and, uh, the, the, the insurance companies pretending they're saving a lot of money when they're really not.
Yeah.
Because they could have gotten it for a much better price, but they remember they get paid a percentage of the total amount of money that's charged.
So, The higher the amount of money, the more percentage they get paid.
Now, in fairness, across the system, if you don't police this, then people are going to take advantage of it.
So, I have to actually come back to the government and to the role that we have played over the years and say, we have got to be serious with these folks.
We're going to come after you, and your dad has charged us to do this, if you cheat the American people.
If you treat them fairly, yeah, it's expensive.
By the way, $300 is still a lot of money for a lot of people, right?
Oh, it's a lot of money.
It's not free, but is that what it is?
$15,000 the right cost for an ERB?
Well, what's shocking is really the Delta.
Yes.
Yeah.
How can one person get it for 300 and one person's getting it for $15,000?
Like, there's no, there's no additional value.
Uh, it was just like, eh, we can charge it, so we will.
We're going to deliver a transparency platform, and this is again part of the larger build out of what we're doing within Medicare and Medicaid, and we want to be the leading payer.
We want to be the gold standard, so you copy us.
If you're not, you know, the U.S. government, and you don't want to copy us, uh, that's your problem, but ideally most people will say, well, you know, these guys figured it out.
So we want, when you go to get an MRI scan for a knee injury, we want you to look on your app and see 12 different places around where you live that offer different prices for MRI scans, and hold people accountable For those prices.
So if one place is $300 and one place is $3,000, which is, by the way, these are real prices, hopefully the American people will say, I'll go to the $300 place because obviously there's something about this.
Now, there may be other reasons you want to go to the $3,000 place.
That's your choice.
You can pay more if you want because that's your, you can buy an expensive car, cheap car.
But if the exact same car costs 10 times a month different, you'll probably buy the cheaper car.
So you're obviously going to run into a lot of internal resistance, you know, whether it's the hospital or whether it's one of these middlemen.
Do you have any internal resistance even from You know, sort of legacy government people who've just been like, well, we just don't want to actually have to do the work to actually fix these things.
Cause it sounds like you have a plan.
It seems very logical to me.
And yet the fact that it hasn't been implemented before screams of a much larger problem.
So a couple of epiphanies on this topic.
One, the average employee in the federal government is not like the sloth in Zootopia, which is what I mistakenly thought.
You know, they're just moving slowly and mandering.
They actually want to do their jobs.
And they often gave up really good paying jobs to come in.
The problem is you get lobbied aggressively, even when you're trying to do the right thing.
And the best part about this job for me is when I go tell the president, your dad, Hey, this is going to be a real problem.
People are going to make a lot of noise.
You know what he says?
I don't give a damn.
I didn't come into this job to be able to make friends.
I got plenty of friends.
I came here to do the things we came to, we promised the American people we would do.
And that gives us carte blanche to go out there and fight for the American people.
I have been the subject of some massive lobbying campaigns and not once.
Not once have I been told to stand down because of lobbyists.
There are times when what we're trying to do might not be the right thing for the American people and takes us a while to figure out that there's a better way of doing it.
Lobbying Against Government Reform00:10:42
That's a different discussion.
But the fact that we can tell the entire organization, march forward in the battle.
We have artillery behind us, air cover over us.
Just do your jobs is, uh, is an effective and, and, and very motivating strategy.
And, you know, I, I, I love telling our teammates, you know, we just released this week to, To a big town hall, our objectives and key results.
When I go in there and I say, All I'm asking you to do is do your job.
The reason you came here, the reason you're proud to be an American, the reason as a patriot you want to fix a system that's failing too many Americans is that we've not been free to do our jobs.
Go out there and do them.
These guys march in the battle.
They're almost with religious zealotry.
I'm so proud of them.
I can't tell you.
That's great.
Talk a little bit about Trump RX.
I know you guys launched that a couple months ago.
I've looked at it myself.
I mean, the numbers are insane.
I mean, obviously, we want to get people healthy.
Hopefully, they're never dependent on prescriptions.
But if you are going to be dependent on prescriptions, and a lot of people will, talk about that because it's one of these things that I was like, I saw it.
I was like, that's the greatest win ever.
That's incredible.
I mean, we touched on it a little bit as it relates to pricing.
This is a program, you can go in there, you can say what you need, and the cost savings aren't like, it's not like, you know, 10, 15%.
I mean, these are, you know, 3, 4, 5x what you were paying, you know.
To the favorable side.
And yet, you know, I don't know if that's the media.
I don't know if it's just, you know, messaging.
It feels like no one even knows about it.
I mean, in going through, you know, various things, even for myself, it's like I go just out of curiosity.
I got to see what, you know, I'm blessed to probably be able to pay for, you know, my drugs, whatever it is.
It's like, oh my God, these are game changing things.
And yet, again, maybe it gets lost in some of the chaos of the rest of the world, or maybe it's sort of one of these lies by omission that you have from the media where they're never going to give you credit for that.
Can you talk about that program where people can find out about it, where people can compare?
the stuff that they're buying, because it seems like a no-brainer for everyone to be looking at this stuff.
One in three Americans know about TrumpRx.gov.
I'm going to say it a dozen times so everyone thinks about it.
I get it.
But it is one of the most spectacular examples of government gone good.
So let's just open the kimono here and describe what really happened.
We got these great drug deals with most favorite nation drug pricing.
MFN drug pricing allows now Americans to have access to prices that, to your point, a tenth of what they used to be just a few months ago.
We have to put these prices somewhere so the American people had access to them.
So think of TrumpRx.gov as a transparency site.
No matter what you're out there doing and what you're thinking of buying, before you make a decision, you should go to TrumpRx.gov and just check out the site to make sure you're not getting ripped off or that maybe if there's a better price there, you might want to get it through the TrumpRx system.
Again, we don't make any money on it.
This is a transparency site.
This is a gift from the president to the American people.
Just take advantage of this transparency site.
So you're going to go out there and let's say you want to buy a weight loss drug, GLP1 drug.
You go to TrumpRx.gov.
If you go to a And are you still going to get from the same store?
You could.
Sometimes you can.
Sometimes you can buy it directly from the manufacturer.
Sometimes there's another place to get it.
It's okay.
The pharmaceutical industry and the pharmacies have both sort of chipped in here and been transparent about the pricing.
Just buy it from the best place.
That drives market forces to push the prices down.
So everyone gets the best prices.
There's still profit in this business.
No one's going bankrupt.
But now we're paying what they pay in Europe.
Not what, not, you know, several times what they're paying in Europe.
You go, you get the drug, and now you'll actually start to use it.
It opens up a marketplace.
So for the first time ever, we're giving Medicare beneficiaries access to GLP-1 drugs for obesity.
Why are we doing that?
Because we're going to save money for the taxpayers within two years.
Because if you're taking these medications and losing weight, and because you lose weight, you have less hypertension and less diabetes, and all the downstream problems that are caused by hypertension and diabetes, like strokes and heart attacks and kidney failure, we're going to save a lot of money.
And make people healthier.
So, both because you're able to keep working and because you're not charging money to the healthcare system unnecessarily, we're saving America money.
Yeah, so you may not always just get the benefit if you don't specifically ask or look about it, right?
Exactly.
I mean, that's the thing.
You need to know.
It may be available, but, you know, someone's not just going to give it to you.
I mean, the whole system sort of screwed up between pharmacies and the PBMs, and, you know, there's been a lot of pulling out.
So, if you're not specifically going out there and sort of proactively looking for it, favorite nations pricing may exist.
You may just not get it.
They're not just going to give it to you automatically.
And that, you know, at this point, it becomes buyer beware.
Once we put all the numbers there and made it easy for you to access them, now it's a little bit of an obligation on you.
But I'll give you one concrete example.
It's actually one of the most popular things on TrumpRx.gov.
Fertility drugs.
So, one in three Americans is under-babied.
By that I mean, they either have no children or they want to have more than they have.
One in three.
Our fertility rate, I don't know if you saw the, you know, just this week the new numbers came out.
1.47.
That's, I mean, shockingly low.
When you and I were young.
That's not getting to replacement value at all.
Replacement value is 2.1.
2.1 because you do lose some children.
They, you know, so you have to make more than the father and the mother.
They got to make more than two kids on average.
And so, we're now at 1.47.
One of the big reasons that's given for why Americans are under-babied is they can't afford To make the baby, they're having fertility issues.
So, the major drug that's used is a drug called gonol F.
And it comes with other drugs as well.
That drug costs $3,000, $4,000 in America.
It's a tenth that price in Europe.
That drug now is the same price in America as it is in Europe.
It's one tenth the price.
But you have to go through.
You got to go to TrumpRx.gov to get the medication at that price.
But now we're having Trump babies.
People are actually getting the medication there.
We're making Trump babies.
Well, but it's also, yeah, it's also gotten harder because, you know, people have gone into careers longer, women, you know, the whole.
And so, you know, starting in your forties is a lot harder.
It's a lot harder, A, to do it.
You've put off a lot of those years.
And so I would think the IVF, drugs, and all of these things, if that's part of it, that's a huge deal.
And it allows people to actually, many of whom, you probably know a lot of them because I know IVF was a huge part of your practice prior to you taking a government job and doing this.
But people just couldn't afford to do it, even if they wanted to, even if they regretted perhaps waiting so long because of a career that ultimately their corporation then fired them or they went nowhere.
And they're saying, wait, I just gave up my effectively fertile years to do this.
We have the ability to extend that stuff.
People can do these things, they just weren't always aware.
And it's, it's the classically American thing is give everyone a fair chance.
Get people in the playing field and let them do their best.
But if you can't afford to get on the fail, the playing field, you can't afford the price of admission, then you get boxed out.
And it's really a tragedy because a lot of people would love to have children.
They'd be great parents, but you can't afford these massive numbers.
And so by bringing down drug prices, which are an important part of fertility, uh, practices, you're now democratizing making babies.
It's as creative.
And opportunities you can offer literally the American people.
And it all came about because the Trump administration led by your dad said enough is enough.
So TrumpRx.gov is an incredibly important part of our efforts philosophically.
It's not just a money saver.
It's the ultimate definition of fairness.
And it's a big deal because it's also, again, it's not just Some sort of drug.
I mean, if you can use it for GLP 1s and weight loss drugs, that also has a health benefit, obviously.
In the end, if you can use it for IVF, I mean, it's not just probably what you're thinking of typically in your prescription.
It's literally anything you could be using.
Yeah, and we're adding more drugs.
Like today, literally added more drugs before I came to sit down with you.
And we're going to continue adding drugs.
You've talked earlier about the message not getting out.
One of the reasons I wanted to spend some time talking to you is because podcasts are an incredibly effective way to get people just to stop.
Do the merry go round for a minute and just focus it on a few things that are life changing.
What we are recognizing now in America is we could actually fix the problems we've all been lamenting.
And I don't care where you are in the political spectrum.
There have been some very brave decisions taken by this administration because there's a leader, your dad, who has over and over again said, I don't care.
I'm going to do the right thing.
And so when you've got someone who's got the fortitude, the cojones to make these choices, we need to finish the job.
Yeah.
We've dropped, we've, we've brought affordability to healthcare in several ways.
We're most favoritization drug pricing with TrumpRx.gov is the ultimate payoff, taking out the fraud, waste and abuse in the system.
Challenging some of the legalized money laundering that was bankrupting the healthcare system.
We saved Medicaid.
Your dad did and Congress did with the working families tax cut legislation.
Uh, we have had huge impact on tax bills, which right now Americans are finally realized what a big gift this was to get them back on their feet again.
But some of the challenges that were created in the past four years will take time to fix.
We cannot stop moving forward.
There's a famous line that, um, Winston Churchill offered during the darkest days of the Battle of Britain in 1940 as the Second World War was progressing.
So, when you're going through hell, it's no time to stop.
Yeah.
We are moving forward in positive ways in so many of the existential challenges to our nation.
Challenges that, as a people, we would be defined by.
And when I go out and recruit people to enter government, which is the most important thing I do, Don, it's the, and I do think it's probably true for a lot of folks in the administration.
You know, my job is to hire the smartest people I can find and make sure they don't kill each other.
Literally, just get them in there and let them fix the problem.
TrumpRx.gov is beautiful because Joe Jebia and Ed Corstein, these brilliant programmers and designers, Ed, you know, is a, is a brilliant 20 year old and, and Joe Jebia built, uh, uh, Airbnb.
Yeah.
They don't, they're donating their time and their lives to fixing the, the, the front end of the U.S. government websites.
But when they build a world class website like TrumpRx.gov, that's the fastest processor of any website I've ever seen in my life.
That's a donation to the American people.
When the prices that are put in there are negotiated by world class negotiators who are never in government normally.
And in fact, if you talk to our counterparties in pharma, they want to hire these guys.
They've never seen negotiators like these folks.
When you have world class folks like David Sachs who's trying to get AI to be part of the next generation of American leaders, because that way we'll stay ahead of China.
Generational Opportunity For Change00:10:30
When we got things like Secretary Kennedy who are bravely taking on the food industrial complex, you don't get these folks in the room usually.
Mike, I pray we continue this unique time in American history, a Camelot type experience for the next couple years so the president can finish his agenda.
Because we will lead this country so much stronger if we can pull that off.
I mean, I think that's such an important point.
I mean, you know, people who are willing to step out of the private sector, good jobs, making a lot of money.
I mean, you did it yourself.
I mean, you, incredibly successful doctor, incredible, incredibly successful businesses, TV personality, all of these things.
I mean, you sort of had an interesting, you know, way of getting in it.
Like my father, he sort of, after a while, was like, I'm sick of this shit.
We, we, we can't just throw stones from the sidelines.
We got to get in the game.
I mean, you actually ran for Senate against, you know, John Fetterman before ever taking this job.
Talk a little bit about that because A, I know from experience, it takes a lot of guts to get into that, especially in the worlds that you came from, certainly the world that my father came from in New York City as a real estate developer, you know, in the industry.
Now, you know, whether, and this, what you're doing is really apolitical, but like, you're working for a guy that's a Republican.
And so I imagine that wasn't easy.
Talk a little bit about that because it sort of feels like you went through hell in a Senate race.
That's a brutal type of thing.
Didn't win, but now you end up here.
I mean, just opening that door to be available to fix these things seems like such an incredible experience.
Tell me what that was like.
Your dad is very fond of commenting how lucky I am that I lost that race.
Yeah, it was the only thing you ever lost.
You're probably better off having lost in a certain way.
Well, I think he's right.
And there is a God.
You look for your purpose.
I've always believed that was the change business.
Yeah.
I wanted to change the way we practice heart surgery.
I wanted to change the way we talked about health.
That's why I launched the show.
Um, I, I, I ran for government office because I, I really felt that the bigger changes needed to involve, in my, my case, the Senate.
Yeah.
Um, it was very painful to lose that race.
You know, it's interesting was because before you run for an office, you should do opposition research on yourself.
So I hired a group to just find out where all the warts are in my past.
No one's perfect.
And the guys came back and they said, gosh, this is remarkably good.
And I said, oh my goodness.
Sat up.
I was so proud of.
Wow.
You know, I've had a flawless life.
You know, no major issues.
And they said, that's not good.
I said, what do you mean?
He said, if there's nothing that's obviously a blemish, they're going to have to manufacture something that's plausible.
Which makes it worse.
Yeah.
So you don't, now you don't know where it's coming from.
And they're going to make up stories about you that are believable, plausible, because they're going to have to do something.
They're not going to just let you win.
And so you go through and your family does a lot of pain through that process.
But I liken it to the samurai sword.
I think this is true for your family as well.
The samurais would take steel and they'd bend it and heat it and hammer it.
And then they'd bend it again and heat it and hammer it.
And they did it enough times that they could make the steel so strong that it could not be broken.
And when you go through those difficult times, I actually find that it does steal you.
And in my case, I think my family is better able to deal with the incoming now.
But you also realize.
But it is a culture shock at first, right?
I mean, it's like a cold plug.
It's like you guys were loved by everyone and then now you're going to piss off some people.
A lot of people that I thought my friends were clearing.
Didn't say I wasn't their friend anymore.
But I tell you, there are a lot of folks that are not cowards that will bravely say, listen, I appreciate that you're doing this.
I know you would.
Well, it's guys like you that also opened the door for others who should be doing what you're doing instead of people who are just like, well, you're there.
So you're a bureaucrat.
Get in there.
I mean, I think just opening that door for other real people to say, you know what?
I'm going to take a couple of years of my life to actually make this change is a huge, is a huge deal.
And it is a generational opportunity.
And what I tell every person that I'm trying to recruit.
And right now, in case you're not clear, I'm trying to recruit you because if you're listening to this podcast, you could help.
And I'll speak about this, you know, obviously from my health perspective, but it's true of any arm of government.
If you do not come and join us now in this generational opportunity to change our country for the better, you will regret it for the rest of your life.
And here's why.
If we succeed, you could have been part of history and you'll have missed out.
You could have been in the room and you'll be watching from the sidelines.
And if we fail, which we're not going to, but if we fail, you'll blame yourself for not helping.
We don't have the luxury of being intellectuals.
And as a surgeon, that's one of the Your fundamental insights you have in your time of need when the patient's bleeding out and you've got to make that stitch, you do not want to be surrounded by intellectuals.
You're going to be surrounded by people of action who are willing to stake a position and move forward.
And I think that's our greatest opportunity.
You know, I love heart surgeries.
It was my passion my whole life.
I still take great pride in my heritage.
Government is just like surgery, it's just a lot bloodier.
So come on down.
That's politics.
Yeah, exactly.
Come join us.
That's awesome.
You know, with all of the things that you're talking about, you know, on your plate, dealing with the fraud, dealing with the upside, you know, I'd love you to touch a little bit on sort of the overall aspects of Maha as well.
But, but what is between Maha and, and generally, you know, what does victory look like?
You get another, you know, two and a half years.
What does victory look like when you come out of this thing?
Uh, what do you want to have accomplished?
Victory for me is having a relationship with 170 million people.
Who are my customers?
More than half American adults are touched by us.
And so, and most kids are born in the Medicaid.
Yeah.
So we have a lot of people whose lives we can improve if I can just talk to them.
So I believe that we will be able to use agentic AI to reach out and be in conversation with you in any way you want.
I'll meet you where you are.
You want to disclose your medical records because they're yours and you own them.
We'll take them and help you identify what's important and all the risk factors you ought to be worried about.
And we'll help you find the right doctor and make the right treatments available and make sure you can afford all these care opportunities.
If you want to stay more private, that's fine too.
Wherever you are, I just want to be able to make sure you know that we're here to help without weaponizing a surveillance system that could control your life.
That is a balancing act that we have to respect, it is hard to do.
Yeah, that's a big fear on our side of the aisle, right?
I mean, you saw what happened.
It seems like everything was always weaponized against conservatives, whether it was media, whether it was search engines, whether it was shadow banning.
There's a lot of, and rightfully so, skepticism on our side.
And yet, with the advent of these technologies, When your health is on the line, there has to be a fine balance of having some trust that maybe you can get some more information that you wouldn't otherwise have.
You're going to want to have your own AI to protect you.
This is going to happen whether you wanted to or not.
And listen, you met my wife.
Lisa is about as far out there as you can get in not trusting big government, big data.
She's Mensa, right?
In my house, the prophecy should work.
Very similar.
Even when she talks with Bettina, I'm like, I've got to break out the tinfoil hats for all of you guys.
And I'm pretty.
Freaking conspiratorial, so I guess it's just, but she's what she often says.
If you're not a conspiracy theorist by now, you're a fool.
Yeah, you're an idiot.
Yeah, 100% right.
But there's things that I do believe we're going to have to accept are coming down the pike at us.
And it's not whether you want it to happen, but how you're going to protect yourself when it does happen.
And there's too many opportunities for us to help, especially folks who've fallen or having trouble getting up, folks with substance use disorder, a lot of folks who are vulnerable or having issues with mental health concerns.
I mean, if I'm trying to deliver mental health services in rural America.
And one of the greatest gifts that your dad and, um, and Congress has given to the American people is the Rural Health Transformation Fund.
50 million, 50 billion dollars.
50% more money than ever before put by Medicaid into rural health is going into rural health.
It's already now.
It's already out there.
And that's a opportunity for us to right size rural health care.
One of the ways we're going to have to do it is to meet folks with mental health conditions with avatars.
Why?
Because we don't have enough people to do it.
There are not enough mental health practitioners to the 60 million Americans listening right now in rural America.
So we're going to have to find solutions.
The question is, how do we make sure these folks don't destroy your life or penalize you because you don't think the way, the right way?
Correct.
And so that's why I encourage folks to get involved.
You know, help us find better answers.
If the only people thinking about these are folks trying to monetize it and profit off it, they're not going to care about you.
Yeah, even when it comes to that, I mean, getting people involved can also be, you know, even on the whistleblower side.
I mean, people see some of this stuff going on.
People see some of this fraud.
And yet, in the prior administration, it feels like the whistleblowers were the people that were penalized, uh, you know, and held accountable for doing the right thing.
Not, not the people committing the fraud.
I mean, can we make people comfortable that, hey, if you're seeing something that's bad going on, point it out that there's good, people are going to be receptive to that.
Listen, the, uh, the, the arc of history bends towards truth.
Yeah.
Eventually, those whistleblowers do get heard.
I mean, our biggest allies in Minnesota taking on the fraud, especially from the Somalians, but others as well, including folks serving in Minnesota, uh, were the whistleblowers who were ostracized, driven out of government, penalized by being moved to obscure areas in the administration.
And, uh, now when they have a chance, they're very clear about what went wrong.
So, uh, it does take brave people, but that's what it's always taken.
Yeah.
Right?
You know, you don't change society with, with committees and You know, and, you know, these folks are talking to each other at the faculty lounge with their tweed jackets as they smoke a pipe.
Society changes because a few powerful, passionate people don't take no for an answer and just keep pushing until they get heard.
And I have confidence that's what's going to happen in America.
That's why I trust elections when they're done right.
If we are able to actually clean up some of the fraud that's out there and allow the American people to speak, they will make the right decision.
They made the right decision in 2024, despite an overwhelming avalanche of media.
That was against us because they saw through it.
And I think they'll make the right decision in 26 and 28.
And until the Democratic Party course corrects, and I think they will, there's plenty of Democrats now who are quite loudly saying we've lost our way.
Trusting Plastic Surgeons Blindly00:05:45
I mean, when we have, I just read this morning, it's frustrating, you know, nuns providing care to terminal patients being criticized by the state of New York because they're not willing to offer DEI and transgender concepts.
To these terminal patients.
I mean, what are you talking about?
Like, no Democrat wants that.
It's like a South Park episode.
This is all performative.
My son, Oliver, who you know, he's an intern now at Columbia, but he just finished medical school.
And when he was going through medical school, they kept training him that he had to introduce himself to patients by his pronouns.
And he said, no, I'm not going to do that.
I'm not going to talk to an 80 year old Korean war vet who's going into open heart surgery and say, I met he, him.
He doesn't care.
And why am I interviewing him?
He's going to cardiac arrest just hearing that.
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, why, but why am I imposing my belief systems on him?
Let him be a patient.
By Oliver, I'll just go ahead and tell you, because this is, you know, I think you'll treat this with, you know, the sensitivity that you should.
Oliver was in medical school taught how to separate kids From their parents, so he could ask them about gender issues.
And Oliver said, I am not going to do that.
That is grooming.
If the parents have an issue, they will come and ask our advice.
But I'm not going to get between a parent and their child and introduce complicated concepts that are going to be very difficult for the family to address later on.
I just don't think that's right.
And they dinged him.
Are you able to, you know, from where you are through HHS, are you guys able to do anything about that?
And, you know, you see that a lot these days the indoctrination within the medical school systems, the same.
You know, forcing those sorts of things, uh.
Well, one of the things that you realize in government is elections have consequences.
The American people brought your father and Vice President Vance, who runs the task force, into government to fix these problems.
So in this particular case, and there's a whole work stream around this that we were successfully able to complete.
We first wrote a white paper, which you might say, who cares about that?
Because it put all the evidence out there that the transgender procedures, the gender changing, rejecting procedures were a lie.
Yeah.
We then, uh.
Oh, the recidivism rate was like in the 90%.
You know, people.
People were pushed to do this.
They were manipulated into doing this, uh, indoctrinated into these things, groomed.
And a couple years later, they realized like, wait a minute, this hasn't actually solved any of my problems.
It's actually made it much worse.
The lies around these procedures were exposed.
In fact, the Europeans have now come back and they no longer are advocating for these procedures.
But we took this white paper.
We used it to write a rule.
What's how government changes policy?
We wrote a rule saying you may not use federal tax dollars in Medicaid to pay for gender rejecting procedures.
That, that, that rule, which was a, you know, we caught hell for it, but it's the right thing to do.
And then we went out, and this is really important.
We went to the major medical societies and to the medical schools, and we made it very clear what we expect them to do and what the data was, uh, out there needed to be respected.
So the, God bless them.
The plastic surgeons put their hand up.
They went first and said, we're the people who do these operations.
We no longer advocate for them until you're 19 years of age.
Which, by the way, I'm fine with.
When children are.
If you're an adult, you can do your own thing.
No, but kids may long, no longer get these procedures because they're experiments.
And unless you're doing them in a clinical trial, you should not be selling this stuff because people are making a lot of money.
You know how much it costs to, to, to, to take, you know, to do gender operation, create a new penis, to take off breasts?
These are hundreds of thousands of dollars.
You get paid more to take a breast off a child than a woman who has breast cancer.
Crazy.
We actually pay more for a gender-rejecting mastectomy than a woman with breast cancer having her breast taken off appropriately.
So this kind of stuff, we stopped.
Not happening.
And the medical societies, because you know what you learn?
You have these advocates that get in there and they pollute the system and they intimidate people, literally scare them.
It's all an intimidation thing.
Once we come to their help, once we come in and say, you know what, you're allowed to say what you believe, you may no longer be intimidated, they change.
So the plastic surgeons went first, then the American Medical Association, God bless them, Say, you know what?
We trust the plastic surgeons.
We're going to support their position.
Wow.
And now you see the medical society.
That's a big change.
It is.
You know, from even the COVID era, where if you said, hey, maybe the Wuhan virus started in a lab that studies the exact virus in question at the place that was ground zero, like, you couldn't say that.
I mean, of course it did.
Like, I got canceled.
I was thrown off social media because I said this.
Like, well, Don, you're not a virologist.
I go, I know I'm not a virologist.
I just don't have to be a fucking idiot.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, this isn't wrong.
You don't need to be a virologist.
You just have to have a little bit of common sense.
And that was totally missing.
Common sense is not so common.
As you know.
And the ability for us to give voice to the many people who have common sense and actually happen to be world experts as well, like the plastic surgeons, to say what they believe is true.
And then turns out that the American Medical Association is comfortable supporting their brethren who are actually experts in this area.
You start to see the dominoes start to come back to us.
And that's why having brave people like your dad lead a government who don't care about getting canceled because you can't recancel somebody, don't care about the media not honoring what they're saying or covering what they're saying because they know the American people are curious.
And that's why podcasts like this matter a lot because what folks have heard today, I'm hoping they will share at the water cooler, at a cocktail party.
Just find an excuse to put this stuff on the agenda because it's only through podcasts like this that the American people get a version of reality that happens to be aligned with the truth.
Well, I appreciate you doing it.
And we're always happy to spread that word.
Dr. Oz, great seeing you as always.
God bless, Don.
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