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Dec. 14, 2023 - Dinesh D'Souza
51:02
FESSING UP Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep727
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Coming up, I'll discuss the implications of a new Rasmussen survey showing a substantial number of Americans confessing to participating in voter fraud.
I'll reveal how SCOTUS is likely to tell Special Counsel Jack Smith to hit the road, Jack, with his bogus case against Trump.
And Emmy Award-winning journalist Liz Collin joins me.
We're going to talk about her documentary, The Fall of Minneapolis.
If you're watching on Rumble or listening on Apple, Google, or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Show.
The times are crazy and a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
A stunning survey from the Rasmussen polls has just come out.
It's a survey that Trump is actually all over.
He in fact calls it the biggest story of the year and Republicans must do something about it.
And in fact this is a survey that prompted me to say it seems about time for me to release 2000 Mules free for another week on X.
And of course in the past Rasmussen, in fact this was right around the time of 2000 Mules, did a survey that shows that 77% of likely voters who saw that movie said the movie convinced them that there was systematic and widespread fraud in the 2020 election.
But look, it's one thing for people to say, I believe there was fraud.
The movie has convinced me that there's fraud.
It's a whole other thing for people to say, I did fraud myself.
And that's what this new survey is about.
This is why it's so interesting because it's a telephone survey.
It's a survey that asks people questions about the 2020 election.
And this was done by Rasmussen in conjunction with a group called the Heartland Institute.
Here's what they find. 21% of likely US voters who voted by absentee or mail-in ballot, the key to this is the absentee ballot.
And the key to it is the absentee ballot.
Why? Because the absentee ballot is filled out outside of observation.
See, when you go in to vote, it's really difficult for, let's say, somebody else to vote for you.
They can't do it. You're alone in the booth.
I feel like an idea.
And then you have to give him show your ID. All of that.
So all of the shenanigans occur when that observation is removed.
21% of likely voters say that they, in part or in full, filled out a ballot for somebody else.
Meaning a friend or a family member.
This is illegal.
And by that I mean in some states it is legal to take and deposit a ballot of a family member into a dropbox.
But they have to fill it out.
You can't fill it out for them.
You can't sign their name.
You can't vote their vote.
They have to do it, and you are then permitted.
Again, only in some states, not all, you're able to then be sort of the courier of the ballot to the dropbox.
So that is violation number one.
But it doesn't end there.
17% of mail-in voters in the 2020 election say they cast a ballot in a state where they are no longer a permanent resident.
Illegal. You're not allowed to vote.
You can't even vote in a state where you used to live.
Why? Because if you move to another state, you are now a permanent resident there.
You're supposed to vote in that state.
You're a legal voter in that state.
So you can't say, oh, my friends are in Georgia, so I just decided to go vote.
No, you can't do that.
So now these violations are often not caught and We're good to go.
But in a telephone survey where they presumably have no reason to lie, they're asking you, hey, listen, did you cast a legitimate vote?
Did you vote in the state you're supposed to vote in?
Oh, no, I decided to vote in the state I used to live in or in another state because I thought it was going to be really close over there.
I wanted my vote to count in that election.
Or, you know what?
I've got some relatives. They just weren't in town at the time, so I filled out their ballot.
So, think of this.
We have been fed the propaganda that this is the most secure election in U.S. history, 2020.
Now, that was on the face of it always absurd.
And I noticed that after 2,000 meals, people don't really say that anymore.
But this is how the left is.
They don't admit they were wrong.
They don't say, yeah, that was a lie.
They just kind of quietly, it's like stealth editing for a newspaper where they go back and change their story to pretend like it always was like.
They never, they don't have an apology.
They don't have a correction.
They just go back and modify the text.
And so I think that this Rasmussen survey, very significant, adds to our body of knowledge about the 2020 election and continues to put in the grave the idea that this was the most secure election in history.
It manifestly was not.
it could arguably be the least secure election in US history.
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This will be coming up in the spring of next year.
It was a case that was raised before the court by some January 6 defendants, including a fellow who's been on this podcast, Jake Lang.
And it concerns a charge that has been made against many January 6 defendants, a charge that has been widely used to give people much more severe sentences than they would get just from the good old disorderly conduct of parading in a public building.
Because this is a more serious charge.
Obstruction of an official proceeding.
And this is a charge that can carry years in prison.
It's a felony. Jerry Pern, I saw, just put out on X the statement that this is sort of the charge that the DOJ used to try to put her nephew, Matt Pern, in an otherwise peaceful guy.
Walked into the Capitol.
He was there for 15 minutes.
Didn't damage anything.
Didn't get into any fights or fracases.
Yet he was facing years and years in prison with a potential terrorism enhancement.
That's what caused the poor guy to take his own life.
So this has been a kind of centerpiece of the DOJ's prosecution of January 6th defendants.
Even more than that, it is a centerpiece of special counsel Jack Smith's prosecution of Trump.
The prosecution in the January 6th case, or in the, quote, overturning the 2020 election case, the case in D.C., hinges on this obstruction.
The Trump obstructed justice.
Remember, Trump is not accused of incitement.
He's not accused of inciting an insurrection.
No, he's accused of obstructing an official proceeding and conspiring to do that.
Now, This obstruction of an official proceeding goes to a statute that is 18 U.S. Code 1512.
It's part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act passed in 2002.
And this was intended to prevent people from destroying evidence.
It goes back to the Enron case, and the idea is that when you have an investigation or a proceeding, you can't go around destroying documents, preventing the investigation or the proceeding from going forward.
That was the context for this law.
The problem with the law is that it's written in a somewhat, perhaps broad is the right word, or maybe even ambiguous way.
It says, I'm now going to read the relevant section, whoever corruptly, and that's a key word, corruptly, Now, that part of it is not relevant to January 6th or not relevant to Trump.
No one is saying that Trump destroyed, mutilated, or concealed records or documents, at least not in this case.
But the second part of it is whoever corruptly obstructs, influences, or impedes any official proceeding or attempts to do so.
This is what the DOJ has used to go after January 6th defendants and now Trump.
And as I mentioned, prosecutors have not only used this for enhanced sentences.
Let's give the guy five years because this is a felony.
But in some cases, they have convinced judges to do pretrial detention.
Think about the shaman guy, Jacob Chansley.
This guy was behind bars.
For, what, two years before he accepted a plea and was then sentenced to 41 months.
But how did you convince the judge to lock up this guy who was obviously kind of a whimsical fellow but no threat to anybody?
Answer, he tried to obstruct an official proceeding.
Oh, okay, let's lock him up.
So the D.C. Circuit of Judges is deeply vested in this law.
Obstruction of an official proceeding charge.
This is why it's really important that the court take it on.
Now, when appellate court judges have looked at this issue, they have looked at the word corruptly.
And the key question is, what does it mean to corruptly interfere with an official proceeding?
Now, according to one judge, this is Judge Karen Henderson, she says for someone to act corruptly, They have to try to be getting something out of it for themselves.
So when you corruptly, for example, try to destroy a document in a proceeding, you're trying to prevent yourself from being held accountable or you're trying to hold on to the money that you stole.
But what were the January 6th defendants trying to hold on to?
What was their corruption?
Their only corruption was that they believe that the wrong guy is in office.
They believe that the election was stolen.
So the judge goes, well, that could be erroneous.
They might be wrong, but where's the corruption?
I think this is really where the Supreme Court is going to zoom in.
Because the Supreme Court is going to realize that if you just take the word corruptly to be meaningless, well, they obstructed the proceeding, so it has to be corrupt.
Then what about the innumerable left-wing groups, even since January 6th, on multiple occasions, who have interfered with official proceedings and yet none of them have been prosecuted in this way?
Certainly not in this systematic manner by the DOJ. The Supreme Court, I think, is getting ready to strike this down.
And if they do, there are going to be hundreds of convictions that are going to be called into question, overturned.
It's going to be chaos.
And chaos in a good way.
Chaos in the sense of chaos in moving from tyranny toward justice.
Also, it will knock out key pillars of the charges against Trump.
Everybody knows this.
The January 6th defendants know it.
Trump knows it.
The DOJ knows it.
Jack Smith knows it. And everybody is sort of regrouping.
So the Trump case is now effectively on hold.
It was supposed to go on trial in March.
It's absolutely not going to go on trial in March.
I predict it will not go on trial until after the 2024 election.
Number two, a number of January 6th defendants, well, some of them who have already served time, they go, well, this is really nice that the court is going to consider it.
And notice, they're not considering it tomorrow.
They're considering it in the spring.
The court does move slowly.
They're like, listen, we've already paid the price.
We've already taken the blows on our back, if you will.
Now you're telling us that this is a bogus charge.
What kind of justice is it for us when our relatives and loved ones have already been locked up or locked Well, look, it's still better to get vindicated.
It's still better to get your relatives out.
It's still better to get this stuff all cleared up, better laid, as they say, than never.
And finally, for Trump, I think this is important in two respects.
One, it automatically punts the case.
But second, it's a big reversal for Jack Smith.
a big reversal for him because suddenly the centerpiece of his charges against Trump are now in the hands of a, well, conservative Supreme Court.
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Guys, I'm really happy to welcome to the podcast Liz Collin.
She's producer of the film.
We're going to talk about The Fall of Minneapolis.
She's a multi-Emmy award-winning reporter, a news anchor.
She's also a media producer.
She wrote the Amazon bestseller, They're Lying, the Media, the Left, and the Death of George Floyd, and of course the documentary, The Fall of Minneapolis.
Liz, congrats on making this groundbreaking documentary.
It seems like it is...
It is transforming or recasting the whole way that we see George Floyd, BLM, and what in retrospect appears to have been almost a kind of show trial in Minneapolis.
Is that overstating what happened to Derek Chauvin?
Well, Dinesh, first of all, thank you so much for having me.
It truly is an honor to be able to speak to you and for your kind words about the documentary.
But absolutely, I think you're right.
Just to back up a bit here, I was in mainstream media for nearly 20 years in total, but I left due to all of these lies, especially when it came to this case.
I'd never seen before how the press was so privy to all of this information and just refused to pass it on to the public.
So much so that I left for independent media To put some of this all together and put it out there.
But absolutely, it seemed that the script was written here from the very start.
Talk about that. Let's go into the newsroom a little bit in terms of your own experience.
So you would, what you're saying is that these are not new facts that have come out subsequently, even at the time you were aware that there was a different narrative than the one that was being put out. So describe the process of, I mean, how does it happen in the newsroom? Do you say, well, hey, I found this out and the producer goes, oh, no, we can't talk about that.
How does that actually work?
Yeah, it seemed day in, day out on this, which is why I actually called the book, They're Lying, because I kept shouting that I felt like for months on end here.
But this is the very first time that the Minneapolis Police Department withholds the body camera footage in a critical incident from the public.
and the press seemed to just sort of go along with that.
Well, one would say now, after you actually see the body camera footage, this 18 minute interaction with George Floyd, which is why we start the film just with that exactly, what actually that shows.
You also have the police chief, the very next day after all of this, and the mayor of Minneapolis saying, this is not a part of training.
They have no idea what these officers are doing out there at 38th and Chicago on May 25th of 2020.
But if you listen to the body camera footage, they're clearly discussing this MRT.
But also we discover that two pages of the training manual are just mysteriously gone the very next day after this incident.
And this is something that I tried to pass along to say, you know, they're lying.
We need to press back on this because why are these two pages gone from the manual?
But again and again, it seemed that the media cared more about this narrative than actually the facts of this case.
Let's back up to the very beginning because all of this, of course, started with a video and the video then went viral on social media.
And I remember seeing the video myself.
I probably didn't see all of it, but I saw some of it.
The video originally did look incriminating.
By that I meant it kind of infuriated me and I wasn't alone.
And so a lot of us reacting only to the video or what we saw essentially said, this is horrible.
It looks like this guy is putting his knee on this poor guy's neck.
And regardless of whether this guy needs to be apprehended or what he did, surely there's another way to sort of...
Keep him under control.
But what you're saying is that the video perhaps is not giving the full picture, a full picture that can only be obtained by looking at the body cam footage and listening to the surrounding conversation around that.
Is that what you're saying? Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, nobody denies, by looking at this viral Facebook video, how troubling it certainly seemed.
Obviously, nobody denies that at all.
But many people didn't even know other officers were even on the scene.
You have two other officers, two rookie officers in Thomas Lane and Alex King, who are also on top of George Floyd, who is unruly and also refused to comply for nearly 15 minutes.
You have George Floyd talking about how he can't breathe long before Derek Chauvin even arrives on scene.
You have George Floyd being pulled out of a cramped vehicle, but then yet he says he's claustrophobic and he can't go in the back of a squad car.
Police are asking again and again, what are you on?
What did you take? Because they recognize something is not right with him.
And he says nothing, did not take anything.
You can clearly see things on his tongue as he gets out of his car to be arrested.
And let's also not forget that he's arrested by a black officer in Alex King.
But yet we're told this is the most racist interaction with police in U.S. history.
But these are all things that the body camera video clearly shows.
And I also think most importantly you have George Floyd asking himself to be laid on the ground because he does not want to get in the back of the squad car.
And you have Thomas Lane calling for an ambulance 36 seconds after that happens.
Also, some information that was kept from the public for so long.
We'll be right back with Liz Collin, producer of The Fall of Minneapolis.
By the way, the website, thefallofminneapolis.com.
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Boysintheboatmovie.com I'm back with multi-Emmy award-winning reporter and news anchor Liz Collin.
We're talking about the film The Fall of Minneapolis.
The website is thefallofminneapolis.com That'll take you to places where you can watch the film.
You really should check it out.
Liz, you referred to the MRT. Let's talk about the procedure that is used by Derek Chauvin here to control and apprehend George Floyd.
What is the MRT? What does it mean?
What does it permit? What does it not permit?
Let's start with that.
Yeah, so I always, you know, like to say that I'm a journalist, so I'm just going off of, you know, what is in public documentation.
I'm certainly not a police officer, not an attorney, not a medical examiner involved in this case, but I do know that records clearly show the MRT, the maximal restraint technique, has been a part of Minneapolis police training for decades.
We found manuals that refer to the MRT going back as far as 1993.
So this is just a restraint that officers, all of the officers that I interview in the film talk about how they've been trained for years in MRT, but just to get an unruly suspect under control.
To go ahead and...
Obviously, George Floyd is arrested earlier, but he, again, is refusing to comply.
And they're holding him there until medical response is available.
And they're also questioning in this body camera footage, you can clear where the ambulance is.
They're wondering why this is taking so long.
I know there's always a lot of questions as to why this went on that long, but in the MRT, in the manual itself, it talks about how to stay there until EMS does arrive.
And you have Thomas Lane talking in interviews that are all part of...
Part of the case as well, that they believe that George Floyd passed out.
We obviously have the benefit now of knowing what happened, but it's not uncommon for that to happen and then for suspects to come back and also be unruly once again.
So they just think that he's passing out and that EMS will be there in just a moment.
So again, we know obviously a lot more now, but everything we've been able to find out about Derek Chauvin as well, including from Alex King, who Chauvin helped to train, even asking Alex King in the film, do you blame Derek Chauvin for any of this?
And he quickly says, no, he's always been one to follow his training.
He's a very by the book cop and had been for 19 years.
Now, did the prosecution produce police officers and maybe even senior police chiefs to come out and say, oh, this is not part of our training?
I'm trying to get a sense of what was said, because if the jury heard what you just said, they would think, well, look, maybe Derek Chauvin, you know, was...
Not a great guy, or maybe it's that he even used excessive force, but it's a whole different matter to say that he murdered George Floyd, let alone to say that he's a racist who murdered him out of a bigoted motive.
And that's really what they were going for in the public narrative.
But what did the jury hear about this?
Did they hear false testimony about MRT? Yeah, what I always say is it's not so much what the jury was allowed to hear in Derek Chauvin's trial that happened 10 months later in the same area where buildings had burned to the ground in the riots prior, But it really was about what the jury was not allowed to hear, and that includes MRT.
The judge ruled very early on that that was not allowed in trial, and people I know after seeing the film have been very surprised by that.
But he said there was no proof that Derek Chauvin took the last training that Minneapolis police conducted on MRT.
They couldn't find Derek's name to sign in.
Again it was just a very strange ruling that the defense certainly questioned.
But again you obviously have to follow through with these rulings that are made.
So no, the jury was not allowed.
And then not only that, but you have the chief of police, Madera Arredondo, who has since retired, and also the head of training, Katie Blackwell.
She has since been promoted.
She's the assistant police chief in Minneapolis now.
But they both testify that they don't recognize what Derek Chauvin is doing that day.
It's not a part of police training.
And that's why in the film we bring out Derek Chauvin's own mom, who actually has his training manual, with an exact picture of MRT and also these other officers then talking about how this really sent such a strong message that these people were willing, in their opinion, to lie on the stand over all of this.
Would it be fair to say that there is not one shred of evidence that Derek Chauvin was motivated by any kind of racial motive or bigotry?
Was there any proof of bigotry that was brought forward in the trial at all?
No, and I think that that is so telling as well, because you're right, we're sort of sold this bill of goods very early on.
Not only that, but everything to the contrary.
I mean, Derek Chauvin, most of his career, he was partnered with a minority officer.
There'd never been any problems at all.
So race did not play a part.
And you even have Alex King speaking to that.
Again, the black officer who arrested George Floyd, that seems to have been forgotten in all of this.
You know, his story didn't matter.
It didn't fit the narrative. So, you know, nobody wanted that side of things because, you know, there's a reason that that was all kept secret.
We'll be right back with Liz Collin, producer of The Fall of Minneapolis.
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I'm back with Liz Collin, Emmy Award-winning reporter and news anchor, producer of The Fall of Minneapolis, website thefallofminneapolis.com.
Liz, we've talked a couple times now about the narrative.
And I'm interested in how the narrative as it is gets framed and also how it plays out into the courtroom and with the jury.
Is this a case where...
You think the left was sort of looking for, as they always are, a kind of clear-cut racial tableau.
A white guy, a black guy.
The white guy is, you know, beating up on, in this case, the black guy.
So, aha! We've got it on video.
And so, the narrative forms around that.
Then, of course, you have the reaction to the narrative, which is people start protesting, they start looting, they start burning.
Political pressure inside of the political wings of the government, but also in the police department and maybe to some degree with the judge and the jury, where everybody now is in a new environment shaped by this really bogus narrative.
Is that what's going on?
Yeah, I think that, you know, you look back, this is a presidential election year when this transpired, so certainly that played a role.
And I also like to point out, too, I'm married to a now former Minneapolis police lieutenant.
He was serving as the union president at the time, so obviously I had, you know, was kind of privy to a lot of this information from the start.
But there were so many things that had never happened in a case before, including the FBI being called in, I should mention, just within a few hours of this happening.
But just taking people into the newsroom where I'm working at the time and not caring about the facts, instead, mainstream media, where I was, they set kind of this mandate that half of the people that we put on camera from then on had to be non-white or from a protected class.
So I'm pushing back and saying, so we're fine just implementing racism now.
This is the definition of racism, that we need to now judge people on the color of their skin before we decide to interview them for the news.
So it made no sense to me.
We have the hashtag Black Lives Matter being used in reporting by a lot of these mainstream stations, and that was fine as well.
But you're right. I mean, I think fear permeated the air in Minneapolis and certainly spread across the country, too, because you couldn't get out of that lane.
Or are you going to face consequences?
Police officers, at least the legend goes, I mean, I'm assuming there's some truth to it, are notoriously protective of each other.
And police departments are supposed to rally behind a policeman when he's accused of something and at least make sure that the guy gets a chance to defend himself.
It appears like even that I mean, do you think that this is a case where, in a sense, Chauvin's fate, and to some degree, even the other officers around him didn't directly participate, but were present, that their fate was sort of sealed from the outset?
Yeah, I think timing of all of this, you have political leaders, instead of, again, presenting the facts, I still think to this day, if they went through the body camera footage with the public the next day, if they went through George Floyd's autopsy that was done within 12 hours of his death, I don't think we'd be here having this conversation today.
But instead, this is kept from the public.
Even the autopsy is...
It is kept for nearly a week, you know, long after buildings had burned and people had died in the riots here and obviously spread elsewhere.
But there was just things that had never, you know, even the police union, they were not allowed to see the video.
So they didn't know a lot of this information.
And, you know, I think there's a lot of shoulda, woulda, coulda as far as, you know, coming forward.
But it certainly sent a strong message as parts of Minneapolis were burning to the ground.
Now, was it the case that the medical examiner's report showed that what killed George Floyd was the drugs in his system and not anything that Derek Chauvin did?
Was it as clear-cut as that?
And also, was there any sort of attempt to influence the medical examiner to come to a different conclusion?
Let's talk about that.
Yeah, so you have, again, 12 hours after George Floyd's death, the autopsy, for the most part, they have to wait on toxicology results, of course, being completed.
And it's a multifactorial death that he points to, including no strangulation, no bruising on the neck, no asphyxiation.
He has three times, eventually, we learn three times the lethal limit of fentanyl in his system, methamphetamine.
Also, some serious heart problems, 75% blockage in one artery alone.
He had just recovered from COVID.
He also has a pelvic tumor that many have said required a lot more testing that I think will probably play a role in things that come forward.
But instead of putting this information out there, you have these backdoor meetings with prosecutors that go on over the course of several days.
This is when the FBI is involved at this point.
The Attorney General of Minnesota, Keith Ellison, who's mentioned quite a bit in the film and in the book as well.
But you kind of have this changing narrative when it comes to his death.
You have Dr. Baker who says if George Floyd is found anywhere else, this is considered an overdose.
Just as clear as that.
And now we have some public documentation that just came to light very recently that we also included in the film that Dr.
Baker acknowledges, you know, what if this narrative, what if the findings here don't match up with the public narrative, what they've decided on already?
And he says, this is the kind of case that ends careers.
So again, they're acknowledging the pressure they were under, and it's all a part of the public documentation in this case.
We'll be right back with Liz Colin, producer of the Fall of Minneapolis.
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It's D-I-N-E-S-H, Dinesh.
I'm back with Emmy Award-winning reporter and news anchor Liz Collin.
We're talking about her film, The Fall of Minneapolis.
The website is thefallofminneapolis.com.
As Derek Chauvin gets convicted and he's in prison, you were able to do an exclusive interview with Chauvin.
Talk a little bit about Chauvin himself, his demeanor, his feeling about all of this.
What did you learn about him, not just in everything you already knew, but in the one-on-one conversation with him?
I'll be honest, I didn't know him before any of this happened and have had many conversations with him over the course of a year at this point.
But it is really remarkable how the media can turn someone into a complete monster.
It's really... Incredible power that they have.
And when you talk to Derek, it's almost like this is the guy that is the most racist cop in America.
He's a small guy.
He's actually kind of shy and timid.
You know, George Floyd clearly is a big guy.
Guy, 6'6", and Derek Chauvin, like, you know, 5'7", and 140 pounds or something along those lines.
But I will say that he's very, you know, by the book, even to this day, he can really recite so much when it comes to police policy.
He has a military background, almost robotic in a sense, I guess, is how I describe him.
So, you know, he's thankful that this story has been put out there.
But then, you know, nine days after we released the film, you know, there's this horrific attack in this prison where he's been for 15 months without any incident, and he's stabbed 22 times.
It's just horrible.
I mean, in some ways, isn't it even possible to view the stabbing as just an extension of that corrupt narrative?
Because I saw a report where the guy who did it was like, oh, yeah, you know, I mean, he was essentially giving us the BLM talking points as to why he was doing this.
So it's almost like the narrative follows you even into prison.
Where is it? Yeah, and we raised this FBI involvement in the film, and then out of nowhere, this guy who was a former FBI informant all of a sudden decides to do this.
So I think there's just a lot of questions that remain.
Darius is lucky to have survived the attack.
Honestly, he was making copies the day after Thanksgiving in the library when he was attacked from behind by this guy and never had any incident he knew of him, but didn't have any interaction with him before.
So, yeah, you're right.
I mean, I think that's the point of all of this, is are we okay with this, the government and the media manipulating these messages, and here we are three years later having to deal with all the consequences of these lies.
I mean, Liz, I think part of what is so disheartening about all this is that even when facts come out, there appears to be no media reassessment.
We saw this with Russia collusion.
You know, every time you bring it up, let's say I see it on CNN, the reporters always look a little uncomfortable, but they'll never say, oh yeah, you know what, we did put out that false narrative for two years.
We're really sorry because we did believe it at the time, even though we now know it was bogus.
Nothing like that. And similarly here, I bet, You know, you have a film, it has this new information, you have the medical report, you've put all the facts together, but I mean, I don't think you or I could be waiting for any apologies coming from the people, whether local or national, who participated in this propagandistic false narrative.
Yeah, you have, I think, more than 5 million people now who've watched the fall of Minneapolis in barely a month.
So it's been remarkable and incredible.
But you need somebody to sort of do something.
You can put this information out there.
But even in that 5 million, you know, I'm lucky enough to be doing an interview with someone like yourself.
No mainstream media has called me for an interview yet.
I know you're not surprised out of anyone.
But But that's really the problem here.
There seems to be this line in the sand, and we're all worse off for it.
What about the courts, Liz?
Is it the case that, unfortunately, when you are convicted at the local level, even though you appeal that the appellate courts don't revisit the facts of the case and kind of look to see whether the jury got it right, they simply look for points of law, is it the case that ultimately this case will not have I shouldn't say a happy ending, but what I mean is that this injustice will not be rectified simply because, in a sense, they pulled it off.
They had a show trial, they got the result they wanted, and now the other courts are just going to kind of shrug and sign off.
Yeah, I think you're right. It's a long battle ahead, long road ahead for something to happen.
You had the Minnesota State Supreme Court already deny Chauvin's appeal.
That was based on a change of venue.
His new attorney has argued that there's no reason this should have been held in Hennepin County where the riots had just happened.
Also, you have a $27 million award given to George Floyd's family during jury selection in Derek Chauvin's trial.
But then you have the U.S. Supreme Court, who also said, it was actually just recently, that they were not going to take this appeal either.
So there are a couple more legal maneuvers.
I know that Derek Chauvin's new attorney, Bill Mormon, is exploring, so we'll continue to follow all of that.
But absolutely, this is a legal fight at this point.
I mean, I think what you've outlined is a tragedy, but it's not just a tragedy for Chauvin It's a tragedy for justice.
It's a tragedy for the country.
Because, you know, we were all raised, I mean, I know when I came to the country, on a civics book idea, you know, better nine guilty men go free than one innocent man get convicted.
And yet, if I were to say what your documentary is about, it's about the conviction of an innocent man.
Yeah, and I think Alex King speaks to this quite a bit in the film, too.
You know, are we okay with mob justice in this country?
Are we going to be okay with that moving forward?
And that's really what we need to examine here.
Even in Alex King, you have...
Minneapolis kid grows up, wants to be a Minneapolis police officer, kind of his dream.
He lands that job and works hard for it.
And he, after his third day on the job, off of his field training, he's thrown in prison for three and a half years.
He'll be a lifelong felon after all of this.
And again, are we okay with moving forward in this so-called justice system?
Wow. The film, guys, The Fall of Minneapolis, you gotta see it.
The website, thefallofminneapolis.com.
Liz Collin, thank you very much for joining me.
Thank you very much. We're now in a new chapter of Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago, where he takes you inside prison, sort of life in the cell of the gulag.
What is that like? What does that feel like?
What's the experience of it?
And he begins by saying that it creates for you, the prisoner, a new reality.
You suddenly find yourself in a different world, different than anything you've had before.
And in some ways, initially, it is oddly calming.
Let me read Solzhenitsyn.
He goes, We're good to go.
You find yourself in this new world and think about your old life where you were like, oh, you know, I got to get this done.
I got to pay my tax bill.
I've got to go do this. I got to do that.
I have these responsibilities and suddenly you realize I don't have any responsibilities.
I don't have to do any of those things.
In fact, I don't have to do anything at all.
I just have to sort of subsist and I have to let time pass and And of course, if I'm in for a year, five years, for 20 years, at some point perhaps that will be over and I will get out and then have to resume my normal life.
But it's not going to be picking up where I left off because think about it.
You go in at 30, you come out at 40 or 50.
Your life is totally different.
The people you know are gone.
Some of them are dead.
So Solzhenitsyn is capturing this dramatic change of circumstance.
And he says in this situation, he says, you become very attentive to very little things.
He says, for example, how gratefully the prisoner's fingers reach out to feel and crumble the lumps of earth in the vegetable garden.
So, you know, in your normal life, it's like, who wants to go outside and play with mud?
When you're a prisoner, it's like, wow, I can touch the earth.
And he goes, but alas, in many cases, it's asphalt.
You don't even have the mud. He goes, how his head rises of itself toward the eternal heavens.
He goes, but alas, this is forbidden.
Solzhenitsyn says that when prisoners raise their heads up as if in reverence or as if to pray, the guards shout, look down, look down.
They're not supposed to even look up.
So this also gives you a sense of how in prison you are at the mercy of arbitrary orders.
The only other example I can think of similar to this, and of course much more benign, is in a hospital.
Because in a hospital, there'll be raise your arms, close your eyes, they stick something in your mouth.
But of course, all of that is presumably for your benefit.
So even though it's arbitrary or just going along with it, yeah, sure, ah, you know, in prison, you have the same thing, but it's not for your benefit.
In fact, it's usually for your torment.
And then he says, And how much touching attention the little bird on the window still arouses in him.
Think of it. You're in prison.
Sometimes you see the same two or three guys or the same ten guys.
And then, hey, this little bird.
Hey, look. And you can watch that bird if it sits there for hours.
A bird that normally would not even cause you in normal life to turn your head.
You would pay no attention to it at all.
I think, for example, you might remember the...
Was it honey in the Shawshank Redemption?
There was a little... Was it a bird?
Or maybe a squirrel?
Something like that, just at the grill of the prison.
But it symbolizes freedom.
And in any event, this is what Solzhenitsyn is getting at.
He then talks about a guy named Nikolai Kozira, who he says was a brilliant astronomer who made an important astronomical finding while in prison.
And Sol Jensen describes how that came about.
He goes, the guy was getting books, and you're allowed to have one book every 10 days.
And he goes, it was really annoying because you get the same book, and typically it's the same propaganda.
There was an edition of a book called Red Concert.
He kept getting this ridiculous book, which he didn't even bother to read.
And then he goes...
One day, they came to change his book out, and they gave him an advanced course in astrophysics.
And he was an astronomer.
So he was like, wow.
And so he began to study and memorize that book.
And out of that book, he had an astronomical insight and was able to make a permanent contribution to astronomy.
Of course, he had the intellectual equipment to do this.
But Solzhenitsyn's point is, again, to his unbelievable good luck, Whether it's providence, whether it's coincidence, this astronomer got an astronomy book.
And the book was something that he was able to delve into.
And Solzhenitsyn also goes that it took his mind away from the prison.
In a certain way, he began to live.
This is how he writes.
Nikolai Alexandrovich Kozirev, whose brilliant career in astronomy was interrupted by his arrest, saved himself only by thinking of the eternal and infinite, the order of the universe, and of its supreme spirit, of the stars, of the internal state, and what time and the passing of time really are.
So interestingly, this mysterious phenomenon called time...
Think of it. Einstein himself wrestles with the concept of time.
What is time? Einstein comes up with space-time.
So this guy is able to, here in the prison cell where he has a lot of time on his hands, able to think in a sort of profound way about the meaning of time itself and make scientific advances even in the horrific conditions of the gulag.
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