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Oct. 25, 2023 - Dinesh D'Souza
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POLICE STATE CASUALTY Dinesh D’Souza Podcast Ep693
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Coming up, I'll discuss how the emerging police state destroys lives and families.
Jerry Perna, the aunt of January 6th casualty Matt Perna, joins me.
She'll talk about her nephew's tragic death and her role in the film.
And security expert Mark Kohlberg Based in Israel, joins me.
We're going to talk about Israel's security issues and the operation to permanently disable Hamas.
Hey, if you're watching on Rumble or listening on Apple, Google, or Spotify, please subscribe to my channel.
This is the Dinesh Jhansom Show.
The times are crazy in a time of confusion, division, and lies.
We need a brave voice of reason, understanding, and truth.
This is the Dinesh D'Souza Podcast.
Today is the, well, the final day for you to watch the movie Police State in theaters.
As you know, we bought out hundreds of theaters on Monday, and we had a terrific opening Monday night.
And tonight, Wednesday night, is your second chance to go.
So if you didn't go Monday, or if you went Monday and you loved it, you know what?
Think about going again.
And there's a lot in this film, and you probably got a lot out of it, but you can get a lot more by seeing it a second time.
There's still some tickets available, although some theaters are sold out.
And the way you get tickets, policestatefilm.net.
Put in your zip code. Theaters come up.
Buy your ticket right there.
You've got to buy it on the website.
You cannot go to the theater.
You cannot get tickets at the theater itself.
Now, if you want to watch at home, you will have a unique chance to do that.
We have a marvelous program.
It's called the Virtual Red Carpet Premiere.
We fly to Las Vegas and do it out of a magnificent studio there.
Forgiato Blow will perform his song, Police State Survivor, which is in the closing credits of the movie, but he doesn't perform it.
It's just the music. But here he's performing it live.
We'll have a full screening of the film, a live Q&A with Dan Bongino and me to follow.
And it's all for the price of a movie ticket.
So it's kind of cool. You can watch it.
You and your family can watch on Friday, October 27th.
So the virtual premiere...
When you go to the website, policestatefilm.net, there's a little tab that says Virtual Premiere.
Click, and it'll take you right to where you can buy tickets for that.
Now, the film is emotionally powerful and has...
Well, there are two kinds of people in the film.
There are whistleblowers, informants, who describe the architecture of the police state, how it's constructed, this kind of evil sausage-making factory, if you will.
And then there are a lot of ordinary people, and I want to show their direct experience of the police state.
because quite frankly, if you haven't had the FBI come smashing through your door, you have no idea what that's like.
And there's a human tendency not to believe it, not to believe it can happen to you, not to believe it could happen here, not in America.
But it is happening, and a movie is the next best way to show you what that looks like and what that feels like.
So there's a lot of emotional content in this movie, but I want to stress here that there's also a lot of intellectual content.
There are questions examined in the movie that go way beyond where the current debate is.
So I'll give a couple of examples of that to give you a flavor for what we talk about in the film.
We have a police state here in America and it has a lot of the common characteristics of other police states.
But it also has some unique characteristics and I want to highlight those.
The first unique characteristic is rampant criminality in our cities.
That actually is not common in police states.
If you go to Pyongyang, you go to Havana, you go to Beijing, you can't just start harassing, murdering people on the subway, accosting them and punching them.
You can't even be a homeless guy who goes up to someone and starts grabbing the food off their plate.
The cops will show up. They'll beat you to a pulp.
They'll take you away. You'll probably never be seen again.
So police states offer a certain weird kind of benefit, which is law and order, clean subways.
And yet, we have a police state, an emerging police state, but we have dirty subways and dangerous subways and rampant criminality.
So how is this rampant criminality consistent with having a police state?
That question is examined and answered in the film.
And here's another one. Police states normally have closed borders.
Think about the Berlin Wall.
Can't get in, can't get out.
Or even, in some ways, the symbolic importance of the Great Wall of China.
There's a restriction on people coming into China, and there's a restriction about what Chinese people can do to leave.
To escape the tyranny, if you will, of China.
Or China wants to follow you if you do.
So how is it the case that we have a police state that doesn't seem to care who gets in?
There's a porous border, a largely open border.
Well, that's explained in the film as well.
So Police State is a film with intellectual and emotional content both.
And I think that combination is really what makes a movie really powerful.
You leave, you find it emotionally...
Welcome to my show!
And the comprehensive explanation of drawing all the threads together into a single narrative, that is really powerful.
So I'm very proud of this film.
I've said a couple of times before, not a film I was kind of wanting to make.
But it's a film that really needs to be made.
But it's also for the American people because America is a country that has never had this kind of experience of a police state.
We always look for it abroad.
We don't recognize a police state when it comes at us in an American accent and with kind of American slogans.
a police state that claims to be wonderful, claims to be on the side of truth and justice and the American way, a police state that says we are saving democracy and we are fighting for truth against misinformation and disinformation, and we are impartially upholding the law and we're even affirming freedom.
Part of what I do in the film is I rip the mask, I take the veils off of the police state so you can see its naked brutality.
I bring it really up close and personal, and I think you will leave the theater with a sort of experience and with a feeling, with an understanding that surpasses that of any of my previous films.
So to close out, the website, the one-stop shop to get tickets, policestatefilm.net.
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I want to welcome to the podcast, Jerry Perna.
Some of you will know Jerry Perna's name.
She is the aunt of January 6th casualty, I will say, Matthew Perna.
And she is also, she is a very powerful, really emotionally riveting scene in the new film, Police State.
The website is RememberingMattPerna.com.
Jerry, Thanks for joining me.
We were just talking a minute ago about the very mixed feelings that you have, and I have also.
We're excited about this film project.
You obviously want to get the word out about Matt's story, and yet we can't look at this as an occasion for celebration because, in your case, you're dealing with a...
Death in the family.
In the case of the movie, the movie is a sort of urgent warning to the country.
Talk a little bit just about your feelings about being in this film, which I believe you're going to see it in the theater tonight.
Yes, we are going to see it tonight, and I'm very proud to be part of the film, but it's also a very bittersweet moment for me.
It's kind of like, I guess, a movie that...
You're excited that it's out there, but you're sad that it had to be.
Almost like a Schindler's List type of feeling.
You know, you don't come away from the theater excited and happy and clapping.
It's a different feeling.
And for my family, it's quite difficult.
I don't know if Matt's dad will watch the film, at least not now.
I mean, there is a...
In the closing scene of the film, we have, and I'm not really giving it away.
It's totally fine. There is a solitary January 6th prisoner who begins to sing the national anthem, and then another guy joins him, and another guy joins him, and it goes into a chorus.
And I've closed some of my earlier films with The Star-Spangled Banner, and it's normally triumphant, and everybody gets up and sort of jubilantly sings.
But I've noticed in the theater from Monday night's performance...
That people are singing, but they are singing with that strange mixture of affirmation and patriotism on the one hand, but also kind of a deep sadness on the other.
I've never kind of heard the national anthem sung that way, and I think it is kind of a metaphor for where we are now as a country.
I have to agree. I've seen several clips on Twitter of people who recorded the audience singing at the end.
And you're right. It's a different tone altogether.
And it's quite scary and it's quite sad.
Matt loved this country so much.
And he watched it just deteriorate.
And he's not here at this point to see how bad it's gotten.
But the direction we're going is horrifying.
Let's talk, Jerry, about the crucial facts about Matt's case.
Matt went inside the Capitol on January 6th, but he was there.
Talk about how long he was in the Capitol.
Talk about what, quote, official proceeding he obstructed.
And then we'll talk about the charges against him.
He was in the Capitol for 14 minutes, and he was recording with his cell phone, and he chanted, USA, USA. He did not break anything or touch anything or harm anyone.
And the charges originally were just the four misdemeanors that they charge everybody with, parading and...
And then they added the obstruction of an official proceeding.
And we never quite understood that because we've been told by several experts that it wasn't actually an official proceeding, unlike last week when the protesters did, in fact, protest during an official session of Congress.
And that seems to have been swept under the rug.
And then at the last moment, the prosecutors said that they were going to add an additional charge.
Talk about that and talk about the impact of that on Matt.
Well, Matt had, you know, pled guilty to the initial charges, and he was awaiting his sentencing hearing.
And a week prior to the sentencing hearing, he was told by his attorney that not only had they postponed the hearing, but the prosecutors were looking to add a sentencing enhancement, which could have increased his sentence to nine years in prison.
It's almost like you plead guilty to A, B, and C, but we're going to pull D out during the 11th hour and try to convince the judge that you deserve more time.
And that was just more than he could take.
And Jerry, wasn't the enhancement sort of a terrorism enhancement, as if to say that somehow Matt was part of a terrorist outfit that was trying to attack the Capitol?
Yes. Yes, even though there was no evidence whatsoever that Matt was part of any group of any kind, he had posted a video after he got back to his hotel room on January 6th, and in the video, Matt is very calm,
cool, and collected, and you can watch the video on our website, and he says the words, Mike Pence proved himself to be a traitor today, and a couple sentences went by, and then he said, but don't worry, don't worry, this isn't over yet.
Well, this isn't over yet, is what they focused in on, and that's exactly false as far as what they were trying to say that he was intending to cause additional harm or something.
Matt was simply reiterating the fact that the election results would be examined and investigated, and that's why he said that.
But they twisted it.
Let's take a pause. We'll be right back with Jerry Parna.
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I'm back with Jerry Perna, the aunt of Matt Perna, the website rememberingmatperna.com.
Jerry, I cannot even describe what must have happened when you first found out that Matt had hanged himself in his garage.
And the impact on you, you describe in the movie, I'm going to let people watch it for themselves and sort of take it in because I think it brings them into the soul of someone who has suffered greatly.
But then I also think about Matt's dad.
Talk a little bit about him, your brother.
Well, Matt's dad also lost his wife eight years before Matt passed to leukemia, and it's been a very difficult time for him, to say the least.
And my brother has two sons, and one lives very far away from him.
So Matt was close to home, and Matt was the one that was there for Larry the most.
And his absence has been devastating for not only my brother, but our entire family and Matt's huge circle of friends that they just look to him.
He was the one that held everything together for everybody.
And he so sadly missed.
The world is not as bright without him.
Jerry, describe the scene where you found the telephone number of the prosecutor and you decided, I'm going to give this guy a call.
Talk about that. A couple of months after Matt passed away, we had this giant box of paperwork from his attorney's case.
And I was going through and putting everything in order because it was given to us in such a manner.
It was just a mess. And I was going through and putting it in chronological order.
And when doing so, I came across an email from the prosecutor that was sent to Matt's attorney.
And his phone number was on the email.
And I just had this whim.
I thought, you know what?
I'm going to call this guy up.
I just want to talk to him.
I want to understand his justification for this sentencing enhancement.
So I called the number and I got a voicemail and I left a message saying who I was.
And an hour and 15 minutes later, the phone rang.
And it was an operator telling me that I was on a recorded line with several witnesses and that the prosecutor would be joining the call.
He came on and I again introduced myself and he said, well, let me just start off by saying that myself and many people in our department, which would be the Department of Justice, were very sad to hear that Matt took his own life.
And I responded, well, yourself and the many people in your department are the reason Matt took his life.
And I asked about the sentencing enhancement, and he said, well, if Matt just could have waited another month, I don't think the enhancement would have stuck with his judge.
And Dinesh, those words cut me like a knife.
Because you're just basically throwing threats out there, not caring how it's going to affect the person, and then telling me after the fact that you don't think it would have stuck anyway.
That must have been so bitter because, in a sense, it creates a sense of futility.
In other words, Matt didn't even know that they were using this as a kind of legal ruse.
The reason I think this is really important is that this type of legal bludgeoning goes on all the time.
I mean, we're seeing where they threaten you with A, B, C, D, and E, and what they're really trying to get you to do is essentially tearfully confess and sign right here and take a plea deal so they can then go see the guy even admits himself that he's guilty.
Isn't that the game that they play?
It is. And they're doing that with all the January Sixers.
And the thing about it is, when they plead guilty, because they know they're not going to receive a fair trial in D.C., that segment of society that believes they are truly insurrectionists sit back and they say, see?
They pled guilty.
Obviously, they did it.
Wow. Jerry, talk finally about the—I know this has been a source of real frustration for you because you posted recently about this on X, where, you know, you post about this, you tag a Republican congressman, you tag senators— And you've noticed a certain kind of wall of silence.
I don't know if indifference is the right word.
Well, how would you characterize it?
And talk a little bit about how people have not come to the defense of Matt and the other January 6th defendants.
I tag several of the congresspeople, the more popular ones per se, and they are silent.
The silence is actually deafening.
And I'm disheartened by it.
There are congresspeople that I looked up to, ones that I trusted.
I recently posted a photograph on X. It is a piece of notepaper with several congresspeople's names and their phone numbers underneath.
Matt's aunt on my sister-in-law's side of the family called these numbers weekly and never, even once, received a return phone call.
Ever. The entire 13 months of Matt's ordeal.
And so I'm disgusted with these people in Congress because they're ignoring it.
It's like they don't want to talk.
It is the elephant in the room, as far as I'm concerned.
And it's disheartening.
Yeah, I certainly agree with that.
Jerry, it was a real honor to have you in the movie.
I hope that the film is a transmission belt for getting the story out to many, many people.
So at least there are Americans across the country and maybe some people around the world who will understand what happened to your nephew and understand what's happening inside this country.
Jerry Perna, thank you very much for joining me.
Once again, the website RememberingMattPerna.com.
Thank you for having me on, Dinesh, and thank you for including me in your film.
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To fall back on. So, in the north of Israel, you have Lebanon, you have the terrorist group called Hezbollah.
Hezbollah is, in many ways, more powerful than Hamas.
Hezbollah has all kinds of military capabilities that Hamas does not have.
Hezbollah is a direct extension of the state of Iran.
Now, Iran is funding Hezbollah.
Iran is also involved with Hamas, but Israel is involved with Hezbollah to a greater degree.
The Israeli full invasion of Gaza, which I believe is coming, has not started yet.
Debbie keeps telling me it's imminent, Dinesh, it's going to happen.
There appears to be some attempt by the Biden administration to ask the Israelis to not do it, but rather to hold back, to wait, to allow for civilian evacuation, to also allow for attempts to secure the release of the hostages.
And the Israelis, at least from news reports, not just news reports here, but news reports in Israel, are getting a little bit impatient.
They're like, there was this horrific attack.
The world has fully seen what's going on.
We need to be able to, I think avenge is maybe the wrong word, but nevertheless retaliate.
There's nothing wrong with retaliating against this kind of a grievous wound inflicted upon the state of Israel and of course the decimation of so many Israeli families.
Thanks for watching!
The Queen of Jordan issued a statement that I was sort of thinking about because I've had a pretty favorable impression of the Queen of Jordan.
I actually met her years ago at an event put on by the Aspen Institute in Colorado.
It just so happened that I was at a dinner.
I was speaking and she was sitting next to me, so we had a chance to talk the whole dinner.
And she seemed like a very refined and dignified person.
And so I was like, I wonder what she's going to say about this.
And what she said was, well, a little disturbing.
Not the worst thing in the world.
In fact, not half as bad as what leftists in the United States are saying.
She didn't say anything about the Israelis are colonialists or settlers.
They had what's coming to them.
She didn't say decolonization is not just a theory.
And She made a humane statement for the most part, but it was disturbing to me because of the moral equivalents built into it.
Basically, what she said is the following.
She said that, For the civilians who were killed in Israel.
That was wrong. That is condemned.
The world is aware of it.
The world is rightly denouncing it.
And then she goes, but, and it's a very big but, she goes, I don't see the same level of condemnation, the same level of compassion when you have civilians on the Palestinian side who are killed.
So basically what she was calling for is...
In her view, a single standard of evaluation or assessment.
Let's realize, she says, that all civilians are innocent, they are not the perpetrators of these attacks, and so one should condemn with an equal voice.
this is the key point, the Hamas attacks on Israeli civilians and the Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians.
So you can see that this is a message that will actually, well it will resonate with Muslims around the world, I think it's pretty clear.
It will also resonate with a lot of other people and it will certainly be taken up by progressives in this country who will say look here's a reasonable person who is warning against the excesses that the Israelis are committing and are going to commit against the Palestinians.
So, Debbie and I were talking about this and sort of assessing the logic of this and we don't think that there's a whole lot of logic to it for a couple of reasons.
Debbie actually gave an analogy which I think is pretty inspired, and so I'm going to allegorize it from her.
She goes, there he goes again, my ideas, and he says to him, everyone was, Dinesh is so smart, Dinesh is so brilliant.
It's really Debbie behind the scenes, the puppeteer, coming up with these ideas, right, Eddie?
Yeah. I'm embarrassing her now.
But anyway, the analogy, really good one.
She says, look, imagine you're going on the highway, you're driving your car, and you are assaulted by a group of carjackers who come in their own car.
And let's say they block your car, they jump out of the car, and they try to attack you.
But they come with their children.
They actually bring some family members with them who happen to be in the car.
Now you happen to have a gun, you're armed, and so when you see them approaching you, guns drawn, and let's just say they open fire and they start shooting at you, you pull out your gun, they run back and take refuge behind their car and they're shooting at you and you shoot back at them.
And you kill some of their family members.
Are you guilty of quote killing civilians?
Is this the same thing as if the carjackers had gotten you, they had pulled you out of the car, they pulled your wife out of the car, they raped your wife, they killed your kids in cold blood, and then they took your car?
No, there's no equivalence here.
On the one hand, they are the attackers, you are the attacked.
Number two, they are deliberately targeting civilians.
They're choosing to commit these atrocities, which they don't have to commit.
Even if they were just stealing your car, they could just take the car.
Or even if you're the target, why would they go after your family?
You are not going after their family.
That's not your objective.
You are in self-defense, shooting back at the attackers, and if their family members are killed, It is incidental damage.
It's not something that is intended by you.
It's not something that you seek to happen.
It is the collateral damage of you aiming in full justice to protect yourself and in this situation.
So apply this analogy to Israel.
The Israelis are defending themselves.
They're striking back at people who attacked them first.
They are not targeting civilians.
They are targeting Hamas targets.
And if Palestinian civilians get killed along the way...
It's not the same thing as what Amas did.
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It's D-I-N-E-S-H Dinesh.
Guys, I'm really delighted to welcome to the podcast a new guest, Mark Kohlberg.
He's an Israeli security expert, actually based in Israel.
He's the director of MKISC and MK International Security Consulting.
This is a guy with an amazing record.
He served in the South African Defense Force, the Israel Defense Force, the Israel National Police.
He is, in fact, the architect of some unique ideas, including a unique program called the Secure Zone Concept.
He is currently assisting the Israel Police International Spokesperson's Unity as a volunteer.
The website, by the way, mksecurityconsulting.com.
Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for joining from Israel.
Let's begin by asking, what is the latest situation in Israel now?
Is there the danger of a new attack?
Or is Israel in a position where we've absorbed the attack, we've seen what's happened, we've now secured the country, and it's now time to go back and go after the bad guys?
Denish, to be honest, we've been attacked for the last 18 days in a row, including today, and including quite a serious incident last night, which the IDF thwarted with a group of terrorists coming through from Gaza.
Why the sea and trying to attack, again, another kibbutz, another village on the seashore?
They were thwarted. They were caught at sea by our Navy and by our Air Force, and they're taken out pretty much.
Just today, we've had some missile fire, a rocket fire from Gaza.
Basically, going into Eilat, which is the first.
Eilat is the southernmost Red Sea border part of Israel.
And going, I'm not sure, the north.
Obviously, the Lebanon border is a...
It's heated up. Things are happening in Lebanon, but on a very, let's call it a lower scale in the meantime.
But certainly there's this anti-tank fire and the IDF is responding.
The Israeli police, who are in charge of internal security in Israel, are dealing with classic crime and dealing with a terror threat all the time.
So it's quite a situation.
We're at war. Mark, can you give us an idea of the...
Well, it's hard to use the word logic of terrorism, but if I think back to the 70s and 80s, a lot of times what the terrorists would do is take hostages.
And the logic of it was obvious.
They wanted something in return, and so they would take over a plane, and they would say, we'll only release the passengers if you do X, Y, or Z. What is the logic from the Hamas and Iran point of view of launching a kind of attack on civilians, an attack that is sure to provoke a strong response?
There is no logic.
There cannot be logic.
There's no logical thought process in doing what these monsters, these savages did on the 7th of October.
If we could share with you the atrocities that these people did.
Rape. Burning people.
Putting landmines underneath two bodies so that when the emergency first responders came to try and give them first aid, they were also blown up.
Beheadings. The videos and the pictures that I've sadly been witness to and I've seen, I haven't been there.
Words cannot describe.
You cannot describe. What people saw there.
And, you know, I come from the police.
I've spoken to police officers who have survived.
We've had 58 policemen killed on the 7th of October.
For Israel, that's a lot of policemen.
It's a full police station.
And it's a tragedy, but Israel is strong.
And I think that these violent monsters called Hamas terrorists I think they are going to get what they deserve.
Can you give us some idea Mark about You've been very involved in establishing security zones and ways to sort of insulate cities and populations from this kind of attack.
I'm sure there's a lot of internal examination in Israel.
And there's, of course, an equally important question about US intelligence agencies.
But is there any determination so far about how such a massive attack could have penetrated without seemingly being detected at all?
I'm not privy to investigation.
I'm a civilian today.
I've heard on the TV politicians and military people come out openly and say we've had flaws.
I guess that our allies maybe also had flaws.
The intelligence, I imagine, was there.
It wasn't dealt with, I'm not sure, so I don't want to say anything that I don't know.
On a personal level, the writing has been on the wall for a long time, and maybe not the scope.
And what we saw happen was thinkable, was imaginable.
Who could have thought that Hamas would do something that makes ISIS look like nice school kids?
Do you understand what I'm saying?
This is an attack, and the world's scariest movie, Danish, cannot describe the words of the scenes that I've seen there.
I've been in 16 terror attacks.
I've been at the scene of what was the worst terror attack in Israel in the Jewish Passover of 2002, the Passover attack in Netanyahu.
We carried out bodies on tables from the dining hall.
That, for me, was post-trauma.
I suffered from post-trauma because of that.
But what I see now, I mean, you don't want to compare a terror attack with a terror attack, but this is something that...
The world needs to wake up and understand that this is not only about Israel.
This is going bigger.
I have Christian friends.
I have Druze friends.
I have Muslim friends around the world that cannot believe what I've shown them and spoken to them about.
They cannot believe. It's got nothing to do with anything else but pure brutality.
It's inhumane. It's savage.
I don't have the words to describe what I've seen.
We'll be right back with Mark Kahlberg, the website mksecurityconsulting.com.
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I'm back with security expert Mark Kalberg, based in Israel.
He's the director of MKISC and MK International Security Consulting.
his website MKSecurityConsulting.com. Mark, you were talking about the just inhumane, the savage, the bestial conduct of these terrorists and it struck me that even though sometimes people are accused of making exaggerated comparisons to the Nazis, in some ways you'd have to say here that these guys paraded their brutality in the way that even the
Nazis did not.
I mean, the Nazis, for example, put their death camps outside of Germany.
The idea was we don't want to show the German people what we're doing.
Whereas it looked like with Hamas, they were jubilant.
They were boastful. They were almost putting this on exhibition.
Look what we did.
And that gives you an idea that you're not only doing evil, you're not even trying to hide it.
You're 100% correct.
It's what they did, how they did it, And they videoed everything.
They used GoPro cameras.
They used their cell phones.
And they videoed atrocities.
I don't think there is an international court in the world that can punish them.
They should be... They're not worthy of being human beings, what they did.
When I say atrocities, burning people alive, tying two people, a boy and a girl, a man and a woman, tying them together, Rating them and burning them, that is not human.
And filming it and showing it.
And this is something I strongly, on one side I'm saying, yes, you can't show people, you can't show normal, sane people this type of carnage.
But on the other side, the world needs to see because somebody has to show this type of thing.
And if we don't show it, we're always going to be questioned.
Israel is always going to be the bad guy.
Do we compare it to the Nazis in the Second World War, the Holocaust?
We can compare it, but it's much more savage because of the video.
Yes, the Nazis did try and hide everything.
They didn't do it overtly.
They did it overtly. They tried as much as they could, obviously.
But this was premeditated.
It was down purpose.
They knew they were going to take one or two hostages.
I don't think that they dreamed they would take 220 hostages.
And just the savagery that they've done on the way is...
I saw a statement, Mark, yesterday, I believe.
It's from the Queen of Jordan.
And I want to sort of lay out her logic and have you sort of respond to it.
She said, yeah, we have to have a uniform standard here.
She said, we rightly condemn what happened to the Jews and what happened in Israel.
But she said, we also have to show an equal consideration to civilians who...
I think she was appealing to a sort of ancient logic of proportionality, which says that, okay, there are so many people who are harmed in Israel, we gotta make sure that not more than that are harmed on the Palestinian side.
To me, there's a sort of fallacious moral equivalence here, because number one, who started it?
You know?
And number two, for the Israelis to truly have proportionality, you would have to go into Gaza and do exactly to the Palestinian civilians what Hamas did, which is obviously not what Israel or the IDF is going to do.
So can you talk a little bit about this attempt?
And some of it is well-meaning, but I think very misguided, to say in effect that Israel has now got to be corralled and curtailed to a standard that does not exceed the law of proportionality.
There is no proportion to what happened here.
And I don't think she understands.
I would be very happy to share with her, to invite her, and show her the evidence for her to see.
And who started this?
Not Israel. I can tell you right now, I was the police spokesman in the, well, not the police spokesman, but in the spokesperson's unit in 2005 in the disengagement from Gaza.
And Israel disengaged from Gaza.
They got so much money over the years to build a Riviera.
They have a beautiful beach.
Instead of building a community and a country and everything that they could have done, they chose to go to war.
And this war hasn't been...
The war was started officially now.
But this has been going on since 2005.
Way longer. With the missiles and the rockets.
Every year they play a game with firing rockets.
We are... A defense force.
Israel is a strong country.
Why do they want to do this?
They have a special, if you understand the ideology of, I don't care if you call them Hamas or Hezbollah, or everybody's under the same umbrella.
And the Queen of Jordan maybe realizes this.
Maybe she's trying to appeal to a certain But she should know that we didn't start this.
We gave them the opportunity.
They have so much money.
Where's the leadership of Hamas today?
You tell me. The leadership sitting in Qatar in some way, drinking champagne maybe, or maybe they don't because they say they're religious.
But I guess people could prove different.
Flying around in private jets.
Do they care about their people?
Do they care about the Koran which says don't kill babies and old women and old men?
Where was that? Were the commanders taking control of the Koran?
Maybe the Muslim community of the world can come out and tell the Queen that the Koran says don't do what Hamas did.
I mean, it would seem that there could be no moral code in the world that could give any sort of justification for what happened.
Let me ask in conclusion, are you confident that now the Israelis are united enough, strong enough, determined enough, To carry out the task of just finally defeating Hamas so that that particular, doesn't end terrorism in the world and probably not even in the Middle East, but at least that particular force is squelched for the foreseeable future.
I think, Danish, that the IDF, the Israel Defense Force, I think the people of Israel, you know, I'm going to say it like this.
Internal security in Israel, people don't know this, but the Israeli police controls internal security.
The IDF does nothing within Israel.
Except the home front command in case of emergency, search and rescue, so forth and so on.
The very same home front command that goes to countries after tsunamis and disasters and earthquakes to health.
The IDF is our Israel defense force.
And if you notice, we haven't attacked first.
We've been attacked. We defend.
But the people of Israel have come together.
So the Hamas has done us a favor.
We were split for the last year.
The people of Israel were split.
The Hamas has done us a great favor.
They've brought us together. They've made a mistake.
A huge mistake.
And I think that the government of Israel, the military, and the police inside Israel are determined to get rid of Hamas because it will be doing the world a favor.
The Jews in Israel, the Muslims in Israel, the Druze, the Bedouins, the Circassians, the Hindu, everybody in Israel is together.
The Hamas killed from all religions, not just Jews.
And the world needs to know that in the Israeli police, I can tell you in the Israeli police, there are Muslims.
There are Bedouins. Do you know how many Bedouins were killed?
Bedouins are Muslim. The Hamas killed Muslims.
Where's the world? Do they know about it?
I doubt it. Wow.
We will win this battle.
We will win this war. And let's hope that the decision makers get rid of Hamas.
Mark Kahlberg, thank you very much for joining me.
The website mksecurityconsulting.com.
Very informative. Thank you, Dinesh.
Thank you so much for having us.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn is continuing his discussion of interrogation techniques in the gulag.
So here we go. Light effects.
So you can imagine what this is.
use of light, psychedelic light, also darkness to create an atmosphere of terror, of confusion and of fear. He also talks about the box. So the box is a small kind of packing case and you put the prisoner in the box and quote he can sit down but which is sometimes dark and constructed in a way that he can only stand up and even then is squeezed against the door and he
is held there for several hours. So it was sort of immobilized inside a box. The accused could also be compelled to stand on his knees, not in some figurative sense but literally to sit on his knees without sitting back on his heels and with his back upright. And Solzhenitsyn says this is sometimes compelled for 12 or even
24 or 48 hours. Who is it aimed at? One already broken, already inclined to It's also a good method to use with women.
In one case, Solzhenitsyn, having set young Lorik Pinadzi on his knees, the interrogator urinated in his face.
And what happened?
Unbroken by anything else, Lorik Pinadzi was broken by this.
So it's the surprise element.
It's the kind of sheer degradation of it, and you're like, okay, I can't take it anymore.
So here are the prisoners.
They cannot sleep, but, says Solzhenitsyn, the interrogator himself could go home, sleep, amuse himself in one way or another.
This was an organized system.
Watch was kept over the kneeling prisoner, and the guards worked in shifts.
So they don't even have to stick around and observe the whole thing.
I'll stay for a few hours, and I'll move on.
Another guy comes in. And then Solzhenitsyn moves on.
He's now talking, this is number 20.
They ordinarily deprived a person of water.
There you go. Dehydration and the kind of effect of that on the body.
Sleeplessness, which they quite failed to appreciate in medieval times.
Here, Solzhenitsyn almost whimsically alluding to history.
You know, there were a lot of medieval torturers, and you can go these days to museums and see the various, the rack and the ways to crop off your ears.
But somehow, the very simplest thing, don't let the guy sleep.
Didn't seem to occur to the practitioners of the Inquisition or other types of ancient torture.
They did not understand, writes Solzhenitsyn, how narrow are the limits within which a human being can preserve his personality intact.
Our body has a kind of daily or circadian rhythm.
It needs sleep.
You deprive it of sleep and the whole system, in a sense, begins to shake, begins to break down.
And this is now understood, says Solzhenitsyn, by the modern, which is to say, in his case, the 20th century, but obviously, by extension, the 21st century torturers.
Well, we think, for example, today of prisoners in solitary confinement, they don't do these exact tortures, but solitary confinement is a form of torture.
Imagine being in a cell for, what, 23 hours a day.
You have little or no access to light.
You don't have books.
You don't have a TV. You have nothing to occupy yourself with.
You're just sitting there, sometimes in the darkness or semi-darkness, and you are looking at the wall.
For minute upon minute, hour upon hour.
I would submit that that is a torture not incomparable to some of the things that Solzhenitsyn is describing.
Quote, they didn't let you sleep?
Well, after all, this is not supposed to be a vacation resort.
The security officials are awake too.
This is what they say. This is Solzhenitsyn giving the kind of contemptuous rationale and then he goes, no, the security guys are catching up on their sleep during the day.
They're keeping you awake at night and they're doing a night shift, but they sleep plenty during the day.
One can say that sleeplessness has become the universal method in the organs, the organs of the system, organs of the state.
It became an integral part of the system.
The above method, right, Solzhenitsyn, was further implemented by an assembly line of interrogators.
Not only were you...
Not allowed to sleep, but for three or four days, shifts of interrogators kept up a continuous interrogation.
And so we've heard of, in fact, I describe in police state, interrogations that are five hours, six hours, seven hours long.
Imagine extending that to days.
One interrogator interrogates you for hours and he leaves.
Another guy comes in and he begins.
The process just continues.
There's a line, I think, that Steve Friend, the FBI whistleblower, uses in the film that the process is the punishment.
And sure enough, that's the case here.
The process itself is part of the punishment.
It's not the whole punishment because the interrogation is a prelude to incarceration.
And that's coming next.
But the interrogation is the beginning of the torture, the beginning of what the gulag is going to do to you.
And then in the cells, writes Solzhenitsyn, a human being was systematically worn down also by starvation and also by cold.
Occasionally they use heat.
But think about these basic elements.
The human body normally takes so much for granted.
We take for granted the air that we breathe in.
We take for granted that we're going to be within a temperature that the human body can endure.
And so what you do is you control those basic things.
You control water, you control food, you control air, you control light.
And in these ways, you take the organism, just the physical organism called the human being, and systematically break it down.
It's that crushing of the body accompanied by a crushing of the spirit that is the essence of the police state and the essence of the gulag archipelago.
Dinesh D'Souza Podcast on Apple, Google, and Spotify.
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