The Culture War - Tim Pool - Tim Pool Vs. Liquid Death CEO DEBATE w/ Mike Cessario (Liquid Death)

Oct. 18, 2025 - The Culture War - Tim Pool

01:13:22

Tim Pool Vs. Liquid Death CEO DEBATE w/ Mike Cessario (Liquid Death)

BUY CAST BREW COFFEE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW - https://castbrew.com/ Become A Member And Protect Our Work at http://www.timcast.com Host: Tim Pool @Timcast (everywhere) Guest: Mike Cessario (Liquid Death) My Second Channel - https://www.youtube.com/timcastnews Podcast Channel - https://www.youtube.com/TimcastIRL

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mike cessario

36:17

tim pool

36:18

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Speaker	Time	Text
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Hello there, friends.
		Uh, if you're watching on Rumble, you saw me do a quick frame check already, because you know, we're chilling.
		Uh I'm gonna be having a discussion with the CEO of Liquid Death, a canned water and beverage company, over issues I take with their company.
		And I will start by saying uh I respect that he's willing to have this conversation because um I uh I I think it's a bad company.
		I certainly think that there's worse companies for sure.
		But I take issue with the misleading claim death to plastic, while all of their products, or I shouldn't say all, because I don't know everything they sell, but their cans are all lined with plastic.
		Not only that, they sell packets of drink mixes, which are also aligned with plastic.
		There are alternatives to plastic that are readily available and low cost, which is glass and stainless steel.
		And so uh for that reason, we will have this discussion.
		And uh let me start by pulling in the CEO himself of Liquid Death.
		And uh, and again, I'm uh I am honored that he is willing to have this conversation.
		Let's make sure we have uh audio is working, checking seems to be good.
		Let's kick it up.
		Make sure everything's here.
		Mike, can you hear me?
unidentified		Gotcha.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Uh thanks for joining me.
		I do appreciate that you're uh willing to have this uh conversation.
		Let me of course not.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Glad that uh you're willing to have it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Let me put my head uh how how make sure the audio is good, but I'll put my headphones on.
		So uh let's just start from the beginning of of how this kicked off, and I'll start with my tweet, and uh I'll be as crass as I need to be, and then you can uh address it.
		I said that uh I'll refrain from swearing, but I said your company was ish, you know, S-word, and that you mislead the public into thinking you have plastic free products when you actually sell plastic lined products and other plastic products.
		And uh I'm I'm not okay with that.
		I'm not a fan of that.
		Uh so I'll make the claim.
		I believe the uh intention of your company with this death to plastic slogan is to trick people into thinking that they're buying something that's more environmentally friendly when in fact they're buying plastic, fully aware that plastic bottles are worse.
		And the reason I say this is because uh a few years ago, as we've uh entertained the Maha argument, uh, and we've seen it rise up and the conversation become more notable.
		I was seeking out uh plastic alternatives for my studio.
		We have about 40 employees, we have uh a dozen or so contractors, plus we have three or four guests coming in every single day.
		So we like to stock up on various beverages and snacks.
		Now, we would order pallets of plastic water bottles because some people just don't care.
		We would also order glass bottles, and it was usually Saratoga Springs glass water bottles.
		I'm fully aware that the plastic caps have uh, I'm sorry, the caps, they're metal, but they have plastic sealers.
		And uh a friend of ours, Richie Jackson, told us how he rode for liquid death and that we should consider aluminum as an alternative to the plastic.
		Uh, the purpose being uh because we wanted non-plastic contaminated uh goods.
		So we didn't want our food products for those that are or serious about it.
		So I ordered thousands of dollars of liquid death uh over the next couple of months for our staff.
		And then my brother informed me, in fact, all of these cans are lined with plastic, and we're not actually getting away from it.
		We're still using it.
		I was incredulous.
		I said, What do you mean?
		It says death to plastic, they're aluminum cans.
		And uh silly me, I guess I just didn't realize that aluminum can meant aluminum and plastic can.
		So my brother using caustic soda dissolved the can and then showed us the plastic bag, which we are drinking out of.
		And I was I was a bit uh uh perturbed by this, not because I I don't recognize that plastic lines everything.
		We buy bacon, it's in plastic, but that the can says death to plastic, and I'd bought plastic, assuming I was buying something that wasn't.
		So in fact, what ended up happening was instead of me purchasing a glass bottle product, which would be substantially less plastic, I ended up buying more plastic and increasing my plastic consumption and the uh the direct contact we make with our with our with our food goods.
		So uh I'll just throw it to you to respond and then give us like an intro or how you want how you see it and what you what you want to say about all that.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Sure, yeah, and you know, and and you bring up a good point, and I think to kind of walk back like how Liquid Death started and what the idea was from the inception was so Liquid Death, we started the company basically in 2018.
		And at that time, plastic pollution was a big thing.
		You were seeing that like Marriott and all these huge hotel chains were getting rid of plastic straws.
		Uh at that time, there was news that was out there around The whole China plastic bottle recycling thing.
		So this idea that people were discovering plastic bottles are not actually recyclable.
		Yes, technically they are recyclable, but they're not actually getting recycled.
		What's happening is you're sending your plastic bottles in your blue container to a recycling facility.
		That facility in the past for decades was then putting it on a ship to China and marking it as recycled.
		What happened once it got to China?
		No one knows, no one cared.
		They could have just dumped it in the ocean.
		They could downcycle it into carpets or whatever.
		Then I think it was, yeah, right around 2018, China said, we're not accepting any more plastic trash from the US.
		We don't want your plastic trash anymore.
		It's useless.
		Then that was a problem for all these recycling plants.
		Now they have nowhere to market as recycled.
		They just have to send it to the landfill because the cost try to process plastic bottles, grind them up, then resell that at a profit to the facility so that they can actually be a business that generates income.
		They would lose money.
		They would go out of business if they actually processed all the plastic bottles.
		So what we did learn was aluminum is the only thing that actually gets recycled.
		And aluminum is subsidizing any of the small amount of recycle that's happening for plastic and also glass, because metal is a valuable material.
		You melt it down, they can put it in bricks, you can sell those bricks for I forget what the price of aluminum is now.
		It's like 1500 bucks a ton or something like that.
		So cans from a recycling standpoint, if you're talking about environmentally friendly, that's a big word.
		What does that mean?
		It can mean a lot of things.
		If you're talking about sustainability, meaning, hey, I can drink a can, it's going to get melted down and made into a new can over and over and over again.
		There is no material, including glass that comes close to aluminum when it comes to sustainability and especially plastic bottles.
		So in the original days of liquid death with death to plastic, everywhere it said death to plastic on our bottle or on our pack, it said we donate a portion of proceeds to help kill plastic pollution.
		And we work with uh companies that we put on our site, like five gyres that fight plastic pollution and a couple others.
		So for us, plastic was just shorthand as a beverage company for plastic bottles.
		And a lot of people understood that.
		Even now, I think we surveyed some liquid death drinkers, and it was like 80% assume that the reason they're buying the can is for recycling reasons, not because, oh, I believe that it's so much healthier to drink out of an aluminum can because pollution is a big thing to people and plastic bottles being in the ocean, all of that.
		That was how we built it.
		Now, over the last couple years, this idea of microplastics is a very new thing that people are discovering and that people are getting more aware of.
		Like liquid that touches plastic can potentially leak particles, and you're actually drinking plastic particles.
		And there's not been a ton of research on exactly what it is.
		Some of it is so, so nano small, like at like an atom-like level that you need special stuff to even detect it and figure it out.
		So if you're looking at, okay, well, people are concerned about liquid touching plastic.
		And to your point, hey, doesn't a plastic bottle mean that there's less plastic?
		Well, it's not true because in that plastic cap, there was a French study that was done.
		They found more microplastics in glass water than even plastic.
		Because with that cap, it's put on with so much pressure and there's paint on the cap, there's plastic seals on it, that just that act of turning it off is releasing so many particles into the water itself that it could even be more than a plastic bottle.
		And then if you're talking about, well, and then last thing, if you're even just talking about the amount of plastic used in a plastic cap, the amount of plastic, and then a lot of plastic bottles are actually using plastic labels that they use to put like the branding and whatnot on there.
		That amount of plastic used in a plastic bottle versus this basically microscopic coating that they put on a can, Even a glass bottle is using 10x the amount of plastic that a can is using.
		So again, it's a gray area, which is why I wanted to talk about it.
		There is no kind of perfect material or perfect solution.
		Everything kind of has you know pros and cons to it.
		Glass and glass and cans are far better than plastic on most levels.
		But that that's kind of a quick overview of it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's a lot to break down.
		You mentioned uh donating proceeds, you mentioned recyclability, you were mentioned you mentioned the study about uh plastics, microplastics, all those things.
		So we gotta we'll try and go through these.
		Uh the first thing's the obvious one.
		Uh why don't you disclose on the packaging, the cans, the boxes, or otherwise, this product does contain plastic inside.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		And it's and it and it's a good point.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Uh, and we are actually as a because I think to your point, the need to talk about plastic being in there, even though if the plastic has absolutely no effect on the recyclability, which is really what our message is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's that's also not correct, but let's we'll stick to the first point.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, it is correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the plastic in the cans, where do they go?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		That layer inside the can is microns thick.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		When that when those cans are smelted down in the process, that is completely burned off.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Where do the particulates go?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		There's no impact.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		What's that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Where do the particulates go?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		In whatever facility that they're burning that in.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Now, so there's pollution made from it, correct?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		What's that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Plastic burned creates pollution.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Where does that pollution go?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Does the does the facility have certain filtration that they're capturing?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are they so where do the filters go?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		What's that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The argument that there's no pollution made from the plastic you're using is a stupid argument, okay?
		When you when you burn off aluminum cans, the plastic is fried and it breaks down into plastic particulates, carbon dioxide, and water vapor, which is captured by filters in these facilities, and those filters create massive landfill waste.
		So this idea that this is another issue I take with what you're saying.
		You've done numerous interviews where you say infinitely recyclable, which is not correct, okay?
		About 2% of your cans are still plastic.
		I fully accept and recognize it's still better than a plastic PET water bottle, substantially cheaper.
		You can get it for a fraction of a cent per ounce in a in a plastic water bottle.
		But again, my point is you are using these these manip this is called assumptive reasoning in marketing and manipulation to convince people that you are doing something that you are not doing something you're in fact actually doing.
		You burn the cans down to melt.
		I think it's 700 Celsius or higher, and the plastic fries off into pollutants, which are captured by filters, and those filters are waste product, and the filters have to exist because you're burning plastic.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		But Tim, you are absolutely wrong.
		They are infinitely recyclable.
		You there is the plastic's not recyclable.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're not burning down the filters to make more more uh epoxy resin lining.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Infinitely recyclable means these cans can be used, melted down, that metal material can be used to make new cans without having to go mine more additional metal to make new cans.
		Plastic cannot be.
		You cannot, it is not happening where plastic bottles are being melted down.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let me ask you a bottle.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So it is infinitely recyclable.
unidentified		So okay, so let's say what percent of your cans is plastic?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What percent of your cans are made of plastic?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Less than one percent.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the the the industry estimate is that it's about 0.5 grams to a gram of plastic in all aluminum cans.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You guys, I don't know if you're still doing tall boys or the 12 ounces.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		It's 0.3 to 0.6, but yeah, go ahead.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Uh so the the standard estimate is around one to two percent of a can.
		I do the low end because I want to be I want to steal man as much as possible.
		Uh so when you say the can is infinitely recyclable, are you saying that minus the plastic, which is a percentage of the can?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Infinitely recyclable.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		You are you saying there's a difference between saying infinite and 100% of this can is being reused.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's a difference marketing.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		It's not marketing, it's it's the English language tip.
		Infinitely recycling.
		Aluminum can the can can be recycled over that metal material.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, that's still not correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The aluminum can be, but the can itself can't because it contains chemicals you have to burn off.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		The can be infinitely turned from a used can into a new can.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, the aluminum over and over and over.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You cannot take, you cannot take uh you cannot take a liquid death can Burn off the plastic and melt it down and convert that into another liquid death can because you will need new plastic to line the inside.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You are so the can itself is not infinitely recyclable, the aluminum of the can is.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Not to mention, my understanding is that so 90, 99% of the can is infinitely recyclable.
		You are correct.
		99% of the can is infinitely recyclable.
		Zero percent of a plastic bottle is infinite recyclable.
		Zero percent of a glass bottle is basically infinitely recycled.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I also disagree with that because I have glass bottles that we reuse all the time and have arguably recycled.
		I understand your point you're making about sending a glass bottle to a facility to melt it down.
		But I I I look at uh let's address the comparison that you've brought up over and over again, because once again, we're we're we're pitting this as if it's you know, cans versus bottles.
		But as far as I can tell, there is no metric showing that canned water has displaced plastic uh PET water bottles in any significant way.
		In fact, plastic water bottle consumption is higher than it's ever been and growing exponentially, especially in the third world.
		So when the argument is made that we are better than plastic, but when you look at the net product of liquid death still produces more plastic on top of existing plastic, I don't see how this actually is an argument.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So if you look at the top 10 plastic bottled water brands right now, since liquid death has been around over the last six years, and look, liquid death is still a small brand, like we're not Coke, we're not Pepsi, but we're on the start to at least have people think about alternatives to plastic bottles.
		Like, yes, we're, you know, if you look at the publicly available scan sales data of all our categories, in which, by the way, still water is less than 15% of our revenue now.
		Mostly what we have are healthy soda, healthy low calorie iced tea, and then we're launching sort of healthy, better for you energy drinks coming going into next year.
		So if you just look at still water, it's it's it's becoming a smaller, smaller part of our revenue.
		But if you look at the top 10 plastic bottled water companies over the last six years, all of them are declining in sales, except for smart water.
		Smartwater is the one brand that is up in sales.
		However, smart water has moved a lot of their bottles to aluminum.
		If you go in an airport right now, almost all the smart water that they're doing, they're putting in aluminum cake.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's clarify that real quick.
		You're you're saying specific companies' sales of plastic water bottles are going down.
		Right.
		That's fantastic for those those 10 specific companies.
		But in general, PET water bottles and the sale of plastic of water in plastic bottles has increased exponentially year over year.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So are you saying just don't do anything?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Uh are you gonna answer my argument or are you gonna shift and divert?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, but I'm no, I just told you of the top 10 brands that are doing all the volume.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I don't care about top 10 brands, I care about total plastic consumption, of which liquid death says death to plastic, but contribute significantly.
		To be fair, small company, I understand you are you're a big company, but relative to the big players, you're not the biggest.
		My I I want to I want to say something real quick too.
		I actually I love your drinks.
		Um, and I think this is this is great.
		I uh liquid death, I've always I've always been a fan.
		I just don't like how you market this as though you're not plastic when you're contributing to plastic.
		And there's a lot more to add to this.
		I mean, you have single-use uh plastic lined packets, you don't need to do that.
		You could do stainless steel, you could also do glass.
		It's a my my argument is you are using this marketing scheme to try and to try and sell a product.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Well, one, we did get out of the packets, and we there's another company that's no more death dust.
		All right, there's another company that wants to license our name so that they can create death dust.
		And now what we're trying to look at is what packages are available that are not that are that are that are a better option than than what's currently there.
		With that stuff, there's not a lot of great options right now.
		So the original thing for Death Dust, that the thinking, just so you see how we're thinking, was that what we did find was because most of those packets are used by people who are like pouring them into reusable water bottles and going to the gym and using these things.
		So you can make the argument that by using a packet, there's it's like 98% less plastic material than a plastic bottle if you're buying a Gatorade, that people kind of making their own sort of sports drinks, you're kind of eliminating the need for someone to buy a plastic bottle, so that if someone's not buying a Gatorade and they're Making their own Gatorade, you can argue that it's it's less plastic consumption that's happening.
		And then hopefully, as technology moves along and packaging moves along, that there are better formats that can be used for these things, given that there's such a new category that out of the gate, it's not the most ideal solution.
		But the minute there was something better that you could migrate over to it.
		And that was kind of the thinking that we had going into so why not glass?
		Glass bottles for liquid death.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Couple reasons.
		One, the recyclability factor.
		They're not actually being recycled.
		So the idea that you have a plastic bottle, you put it in your blue bin, it goes to a recycling facility.
		They don't wash it out.
		Like think about it.
		You have a Coke bottle.
		They own that exact shape and modeling of the bottle.
		You're not gonna wash that out in a facility and then it goes, and then all of a sudden your sprite is in somebody's old use Coke bottle.
		That's not what's happening.
		Europe actually has a better recycling system for glass.
		And the reason that is is because they don't have a mixed recycling plan.
unidentified		They have very specific glass containers, metal containers, plastic containers, all but but but why does recycling of glass matter?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Because if you're talking about sustainability of something that a material that doesn't have to be created from new always, that you can have material that's created new gets reused over and over and over again, you're not constantly having to create new.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And that's part of what's sustainability can be I I look at it like you know, calories per per bottle, right?
		So if the argument is that recycling is good because it requires less energy to to recycle a glass bottle versus produce a new one, I suppose there's an argument there.
		But the reason why they they don't recycle glass is because it's actually not correct, it costs more to recycle the bottle than to produce a new one from scratch.
		Considering that glass bottles are rocks, and when they sit in landfills, it's a landfill full of rocks.
		I don't really have a great concern about that.
		Plastic bottles you and I agree on, but I would actually uh uh make the argument that it, you know, for my for my personal experience, we we we stopped buying the Saratoga Springs glass water bottles.
		I'm familiar with the study that perhaps, according to this one study, there may be a couple, there's more microplastics in the bottle because of the cap.
		There are alternatives.
		There's cork, there's uh uh silicone, things like that.
		But in my experience and what I've encountered, the argument that people are gonna not buy a plastic water bottle because liquid death is an alternative, I think also presupposes that people will choose not to buy a glass product with less plastic because they see liquid death as a cheaper alternative, which in fact just increases total plastic consumption worldwide.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but you you're you're really going out on a limb to make to assume that millions and millions of people are making the same exact assumption that you are.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm making a balanced assumption that there's no data to suggest a person has foregone buying a plastic bottle in favor of liquid death when the inverse could equally be true that they chose not to buy a glass bottle in favor of liquid death, which has more plastic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would actually argue this.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I'm a that doesn't have more plastic, there's more there's more plastic in a glass bottle than in a liquid death can.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In every single glass bottle, even with a cork cap and with the with a paper sticker.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Show me one bottle that exists in a retailer anywhere in this country that is not alcohol that you're charging $15 a bottle for that has a cork in it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The cork, so we've it is funny because you sent me this big long post uh on X about you know our pool water gag product, and we're talking to a variety of distributors that have offered cork sealers as well as silicone, which is a bit more expensive.
		So it certainly exists.
		Like my my point ultimately is No, it exists, but it's expensive.
		That's what alcohol brands use it because liquid death is is what eight eight times the cost of a plastic water bottle per ounce.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, false.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		False.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I can go, I can go to Walmart right now, and for 0.8 of a cents, uh a point just like not even a single cent per ounce.
		I can get water from a plastic bottle.
		Liquid death, I found at the lowest eight cents per ounce and the highest 17 cents per ounce.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So let's talk about the beverage business then.
		So you can talk about how we get the pricing.
		Because I think people are really confused about how pricing ends up on the shelf where it is.
		And that was part of my post to you to understand that.
		Because even in the early days of liquid death, when I'm had the idea I want to make this beverage company, there are so Many costs that I never even realized existed until you actually get into it.
		So there's two ways you can sell a beverage to somebody.
		You can ship it direct to them from your warehouse and sell it on your website, which is kind of what it seemed like you're you know, you were doing with the gag product, right?
		Then there is selling in a retailer, and there's only one way you can basically sell in a retailer.
		You have to sell to a distributor who then sells into the retailer.
		If you're a non-alk beverage product, the only distribution system for the most part that you can use is the beer distribution network.
		Because the other two non-alk distribution networks are Coca-Cola's network, Pepsi's network, Curic Dr. Pepper's network.
		You cannot be distributed in their network unless they own your brand.
		It's locked off.
		Beer distributors, because of the alcohol laws in the US, alcohol manufacturers are only allowed to own 20% of their distribution network.
		You can't produce the booze and also sell the booze to retail.
		So there's about 400 independent Anheuser-Busch distributors, Anheuser-Busch Corporate only owns 20 of them.
		So for those other 300 plus distributors, they're all individual family-owned distributors around the country.
		You can go to them one by one and say, hey, will you distribute my product?
		And most of them say, unless you have massive chain authorizations in Walmart or 7-Eleven or Albertsons, we don't want to deal with your product.
		We've got a hundred other brands.
		So it took Liquid Death a lot of time to do that.
		So once you build out that network, we've got about 300 Anheuser Busch and other some Miller Core, some non-ALC distributors around.
		They want a 30% profit margin to sell your product to the store.
		So me, let's say I can make, let's say I can make a 12-pack of Liquid Death water for call it five bucks is my cost by the time you have the can, the filling, the carton, shipping from the bottler to your own warehouse, then also the cost of shipping from your warehouse to the distributor.
		That all adds up to be a lot.
		As a beverage company, on the low end of what you can sustain yourself as a company is a 30% gross margin.
		At scale, you want to be north of a 40% gross margin.
		Companies like I mentioned, Monster Energy are at 54, Coca-Cola's at 60.
		You start adding that on five bucks plus shipping, give a 40% just mid-range beverage company margin on there.
		Then it goes to the distributor.
		They need to they need a 30% profit margin on that to the retailer.
		And then the retailer, if it's a grocery store, they want a minimum of 35% profit margin when they sell it to the customer.
		In a convenience store, when you're selling singles, they want a 50% gross margin.
		So you start adding that up.
		That's how you get to these prices that are yes, higher than what Coca-Cola can sell it for when they own the entire supply chain.
		They own the cans, they own everything.
		So the beverage game in general is very capital intensive because as a small company, you will never get anywhere close to the cost benefit of a Coca-Cola who own most of the products on the shelves that you see.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What's uh I are you allowed to disclose the profit margins for liquid death?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I can't give an exact number, but I could say we're around 40% gross margin right now.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The uh public uh estimate is 333 million in sales last year.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is that public number correct?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		That's retail scan sales.
		That means when uh there's certain uh data centers that track big retailers like Walmart or Albertson's, what goes through the register?
		That's not our revenue, that's how much liquid death was sold through the registers in retailers.
		So we're not allowed to disclose our actual revenue.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So uh can you are you allowed to sell uh say how many cans or how many how many units you sold in the last year?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I don't have an exact number, but you could kind of back out probably something close to like around uh a buck a can through the register.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So if you're so oh, probably like close to 300 million cans.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Wow, that's a lot.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Uh so is the argument, I suppose, that you don't want to disclose your products contain plastic, or that as it pertains to using glass bottles, you could not find a way to reduce the label or maybe even use the no label.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So Since you since the post the other day, and this is something we've been talking about for a little while.
		It's not like we're like, hey, this is something that we're in a room.
		How do we manipulate the public and get them to buy?
		That's not happening.
		Death to plastic is a marketing tagline, right?
		Marketing taglines at the high level like that, they're not claims.
		We're not saying our product contains zero percent plastic.
		Death to plastic is like just do it or gives you wings.
		It's a short form to get people to then look deeper into the brand of like, oh, what is this?
		And then if you actually go to our website or you read on the can or you look into it, there's more info of what it is.
		Now I agree.
		At this point, because of all the other concerns about plastic, we should absolutely update our line to death to plastic bottles, and we should have on our site, and we actually, if you go to our site now, I had my team update.
		Hey, let's just change the logo now, death to plastic bottles.
		Let's actually talk through everything that we talk through.
		Hey, yes, they do contain a plastic liner.
		And here's what it's all about, and here's what's happened.
		And reality is about microplastics and plastic bottles, and let people make their decision.
		Um, like again, nothing's perfect, and we're not trying to do this to deceive people.
		Again, it's always hard for companies in a lot of areas where companies are so close to their own products, where it's like we live and breathe every day all the details of liquid death, and what we might assume is something that is easily assumed might not be the case, and then we learn and we adapt.
		And I think that's what that's what you have to do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I didn't I did notice this too, um, because I I pulled up your website and saw that you do have this section now which talks about plastic liners, which I believe you put up yesterday.
		And uh, was it yesterday?
		It was yesterday.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, no, I did.
		As soon as we had this conversation, and I saw some of the traction on there, again, this is something we've been talking about.
		I'm like, guys, like we've been talking about this for a while.
		One, it should have been updated earlier.
		I was like, why isn't this updated?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, why did you do it years ago when all these articles came out and the the videos of the plastic bag and the liquid death bottle were going viral like back then it didn't matter, or or you know, I I I look at it like here comes a guy with millions of followers posting on X, I have this issue, and you see all it's like over a thousand comments are made, hundreds of retweets, and then you update it.
		But all the information I'm talking about, I've actually discussed privately, or not even privately.
		I've gone without naming liquid death out of respect for uh mutual and you know, uh uh individuals, mutual colleagues that we have.
		So I've I've actually done shows where I've talked about the issue of can liners without naming liquid death, but uh but there's articles from three years ago talking about how you guys line your product with plastic and don't disclose that, and only now you change it.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I mean I'm glad you did.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Don't get me wrong.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and that's what I mean.
		It's like, well, one, I we didn't believe that and based on because look, we we don't just make decisions in a vacuum of three people sitting in a boardroom.
		Like, we look at shitloads of survey data.
		Like we have people we're surveying liquid death drinkers to find out what is it, why are they buying?
		Is this a problem?
		And what we identified was the fraction of people of all the liquid death customers, the fraction of people that would be in this camp of, oh, I thought I was buying something that had no plastic in it, and how dare you deceive me was so small.
		And even now, it's a very small number of people.
		But hey, sometimes you do have to cater to hey, let's ultra clear.
		So there's nobody that can that can do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I appreciate you coming on, but did you talk with your lawyer before doing this show?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And you you brought up Red Bull gives you wings, which you know the FTC fined Red Bull for as a misleading statement, and then you just stated that you But that's a ridiculous thing.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		How many people actually are buying how many people are buying a liquid debt or no?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		How many people do you think are buying a Red Bull saying, I believe this product is going to give me wings?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Fascinating because that wasn't the FTC's argument.
		The argument was that Red Bull's statement misled the public into thinking that it provided more of an enhancement than any caffeinated beverage.
		The statement Red Bull gives you wings did not trick people into thinking they would grow wings.
		People believed Red Bull was an energy drink, and then they found out it was a standard caffeinated soda.
		That's why they got fined.
		I think it was 13 million dollars.
		So when you say to me, we knew death to plastic was a marketing slogan and our products Contained plastic, and there was a portion of people who genuinely believed it was plastic free.
		Sounds like you've just admitted to an FTC violation.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		You're completely wrong because death to plastic is not a claim.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Death to plastic is a point of view.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Neither is Red Bull gives you wings.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Not all plastic.
		We don't say death to all plastic.
		Our product contains zero percent plastic.
		That's not what we're saying.
		And we have, if you look at any ad that liquid death has made recycled plastic surgery center, the most recent thing we did with Whitney Cummings, the whole thing is about recyclability.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's about putting plastic in your body, which microplastics do when they leach into your food product.
		I I thought that was pretty funny because I like Whitney Cummings and you and you did this commercial where they're jamming plastic in their body.
		And I was like, kind of like when you consume uh plastic lined food products with microplastics leaching into them, right?
		Look, look, I'm I'm gonna say that.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, Tim, Tim, no, no, no, no.
		You're trying to, you're trying to spin something here.
		And look, that's what you do too.
		You spin.
		Spin and you're trying to spin it.
unidentified		Yeah, you spin it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'll tell you, I'll tell you exactly what I'm doing.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		This is a good thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I bought a product at death to plastic because I didn't know aluminum cans had plastic in it, and you told me you knew people, there's a portion of people who didn't know that, and you kept selling the product without disclosing it.
		That pisses me off.
		I would not have bought liquid death as a plastic alternative had I known my food product was lined with plastic because it defeated the purpose of purchasing it, and I stopped buying my Saratoga Springs, thinking this didn't have plastic in it.
		That's my whole argument.
		You said you knew that was the case for a portion of your customers.
		I'm pissed.
		I was one of those customers, and not just that, I'm buying thousands of dollars.
		I'm buying, I think a hundred like dozens of cases, maybe even a hundred cases, because we have 40 employees and we were drinking a lot, and our guests were drinking a lot.
		And we've done special events where we've had people put liquid death on our table.
		I don't care if Coca-Cola, liquid death, or Celsius or whoever has plastic lined cans because we get that.
		I was unaware of that.
		I learned something.
		I care that this can says death to plastic on it.
		And I thought aluminum cans didn't have plastic, and you knew this was the case for some of your customers, and I was buying a product through misleading advertising.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So what you're saying was if it if it specifically said death to plastic bottles, there's no issue.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, not at all.
		Uh there's there, you said no issue at all.
		It's not an absolute.
		I take issue with the marketing campaign, which insinuates you don't use plastic and you're actively working against it, when in fact you are contributing to the production and consumption of plastic.
		It may, it's it's absolutely better than plastic bottles, but there's no data showing a comparison between liquid death consumption and a decline in PET bottle use.
		In fact, exponential increase across the board.
		So when I look at your cans, can for can liquid death produces the same amount of plastic as every other canned soft drink manufacturer, and you're growing.
		And now you're getting away from water and you're going into standard soft drinks, which typically are in aluminum cans because of pressurization.
		They're not going to work in these thin PET bottles.
		You are the same as every other company, but you have this thin veneer of we're environmentally friendly for some reason, or better, despite the fact if you put on these cans, these cans do contain plastic.
		I know I would not have bought them.
		I would I would have kept buying glass.
		And so that's what I'm bothered by.
		So so I'll I'll say this.
		Put on all your products.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Tim, glass has more plastic.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So you're optimal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, you're arguing that that's not correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We don't know that's something it's correct.
unidentified		You're not going to be able to do that.
unidentified		No, it isn't.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely wrong.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Where is how does glass have more plastic?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's in the glass.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Plastic inside the cap of a plastic bottle.
		It weighs about three grams worth of plastic.
		And can I get one without it?5 grams.
		That's all the plastic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		On the high end, it's one.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So just the cap alone is six times the amount of plastic material as what is in a can.
		And then if you have any plastic on the on the label of the plastic bottle, which a lot of them have, that's another couple grams.
		So you're talking on average, and you go ahead, chat GPT, AI, whatever the fuck, a plastic bottle, they estimate has five to six grams of plastic used in the in a plastic in in a glass bottle.
		Which is 10 times that of an aluminum can.
		So make the yeah, so you could make the argument that that's what I'm getting at is yes, there is no perfect thing.
		And when it comes to plastic, that's the bigger thing.
		Let's just say you made up a glass bottle that somehow uses no plastic whatsoever.
		If you're talking about microplastics, water in the bottling facility is touching plastic all over it.
		There's no way to get away from plastic in the modern industrial society, unfortunately.
unidentified		Water is passing through plastic tubes.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		There's plastic nozzles on the on the bottle fillers that the that the water goes through in the facility.
		So we live in a world dominated by plastic.
		So there is no way to get away from any risk of microplastics, regardless of what the container is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I agree.
unidentified		Yeah.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I I agree with that.
		And that's why we have liquid death.
		And my issue is not that Coke lines their cans with plastics.
		My issue is that your marketing misleads into people thinking that it's not the case.
		But with the point, the point, the point was made.
		So uh we we can move on from there.
		I do have a question though, because you sent me that big long uh Twitter thread about the cost of shipping glass.
		I I certainly think glass is still uh point made about beer caps.
		Um I did a quick search and um I'm I'm not getting for for for pop caps, which are not resealable, which I would consider to be uh more comparable.
		Let's let's try and get a hard number.
		Uh so so one of the concerns with like what is the demand for a plastic bottle and resillable resealability is a is a big deal.
		So it looks like even in pop caps, oh I'm sorry, it's 0.03 to 0.08 grams in a pop cap.
		A typical beer cap contains about 0.05 grams of plastic.
		Okay.
		So it looks like there is an alternative with less plastic in it than your can.
		Because I figured that'd be the case.
		It's kind of silly to think that a beer bottle would somehow have more plastic in it than a plastic lined can, right?
		So uh uh glass bottle cap structure is mostly steel and aluminum aluminum, 95 to 98% capped by mass with a total standard uh weight of 2.2 grams.
		The plastic liner is usually 0.03 to 0.08 grams, roughly one to four percent of the cap's total weight.
		So uh again, let's let me let me say I respect fighting against plastic.
		I think it's good that you offer alternatives to plastic PET bottles.
		I don't, however, see a real market displacement.
		PET is on the rise.
		I think you're more likely to pull people from glass bottles, like Topo Chico, for instance, is gonna have substantially less uh or Minaragua, for instance, less plastic than yours, as based on what I just looked up.
		And not to mention, uh comparable price.
		I've got 8.4 cents per ounce at my local Walmart, Walmart for glass bottle Mineragua with a single use pop cap.
		So I can get is it's funny, Minaraguas not even marketing that they're anti plastic and there's less plastic in it.
		Now, to be fair, maybe the label has a certain degree of plastic, but we could mitigate that.
		We could do a paper label or something else.
		So I ultimately what it comes down to is I'm I'm willing to accept that you didn't really think about it all that much.
		You didn't the microplastic thing is only new in the past several years, but there's still a few factors that I think matter.
		One is you could have always gone with glass and single-use pop caps, which has less plastic than the can.
		You could have disclosed on your site on the can, this product still does contain plastic, which I think is important.
		And uh I on top of that, um, I I genuinely just think that liquid death is overall a contributor to the market, not a displacer for the market.
		So consumption of single-use plastic is only going up.
		I take issue with the phrase infinite recyclability because that misleads people into thinking this can is pure aluminum and the whole thing can be reused as a can.
		It can't.
		You've got to get new plastics.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, again, you saying that they're not infinitely recyclable, like you're you're really stretching on that one.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let me ask you a question.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If I took this can of liquid death after it was done, melted it down into aluminum, could that aluminum just in and of itself be reformed into another can of any size?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It could.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, and then to your point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So why don't we so then why do you put plastic in your cans?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		All beverage cans are required to have a liner because the liquid would interact with the metal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so let's try this again.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If I took this liquid death can, finished it, melted it down to aluminum, reshaped it into a can, it would not be capable of holding your beverage because it would react with it.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yes, but you're talking about the word infinite.
		What do you mean by the word infinite?
		Let's get let's start there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		A liquid death can.
		I'm not saying aluminum.
		A liquid death can is not infinitely recyclable because of the portion of it, which is plastic, ink or otherwise.
		The ink, by all means, whatever, however, it's it's it's colored, we can throw that out the window because it's it is what it is.
		But the plastic has to be reproduced.
		Not to mention when it's burned off, the plastic uh will emit carbon, water vapor, and plastic particulates, which are soaked into a filter.
		That filter becomes waste.
		It is tons better than plastic bottles, certainly not better than Topo Chico or any other single use pop cap on a glass bottle.
		So it is not infinitely recyclable.
		That is a marketing term.
		And when you actually look into it, every confirmation is infinitely recyclable as a marketing term used to make it seem like it is.
		Now, if you said the aluminum in our cans can be recycled infinitely because it's a metal, that would be a fair statement.
		And by all means, make that distinction, I suppose.
		Once again, my point is all of these factors line up and show us an avalanche, which says to me, I don't believe that you guys were unaware of the impact.
		In fact, you said to me just a moment ago, you knew a portion of your consumer base thought this was plastic free, and you did not put on the can that it was in fact containing plastic.
		Even if that percentage is two or one percent, it shows that you are willing to say that portion of our consumer base is okay to lie to or mislead.
		It's not lying to just it's all it's lying by omission, it's misleading them and thinking death to plastic doesn't actually mean us because we're we're producing more single-use plastic.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		We have tons of info on our site that is always talking about recyclability of of plastic versus aluminum.
		We're never claiming that these are healthier to drink from in any way.
		We're never claiming anywhere actual claims of like zero percent plastic.
		Death to plastic is a rallying cry.
		It is not a claim.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let me let me ask you, yeah.
		I I get it, I get it.
		And and I'm not trying to try I don't mean to cut you off, but just because I I hear your point and uh duly noted.
		Uh so one one other question I have it says on on this can we donate a portion of the profits from every can sold to help kill plastic pollution.
		Um I checked your site.
		Uh, do you want to explain?
		Uh I don't know if you're allowed to tell us what portion of the profits actually goes towards fighting plastic pollution.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the early days of liquid death, it was we had a specific number.
		We had uh it was like five cents a can was what we what we donated in the very early days.
		As the business well, actually, it was the original thing was five percent of the profits we were donating.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Your site in 2021 says 10%.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, not 10%.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The website liquid death archived 2021 says 10% of all sales per can goes to uh fighting plastic pollution.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		That was never on our site.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's not 10%.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't say 10%.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How much you want to bet?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Gentleman's bet, because I have the archive pulled up.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Million dollars.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you are you sure?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I I'm ready.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		We I know we never put that on there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Uh everyone watching right now can see archive.org, 10% of the profits from every can is donated to help kill plastic pollution.
		I don't know if you're able to see uh actually, you know what I yeah, I can't I can't put it on my screen.
		Um if you if you uh everybody watching can see that it says 10%.
		Buddy, you owe me a million bucks.
		Hey, hey, hey, hey, you said it.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Tell me where to make the check out.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Um to a plastic fighting charity.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Um I'm not mad that you're saying 10%.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think it's good.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		That that I can I can show you detailed legal stuff within there.
		That is someone who needs to be fired that running our website because that is never, it's never been on a can, it's never been anywhere else.
		Like that is not at all what we've ever claimed.
		Like that's somebody who copied and pasted something that that's a typo and it's not on there now, and it's not ever going to be on there.
		That's not true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		August 1st, 2021 uh liquid death website.
unidentified		Uh it's not, yeah, that's typo.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		And it's been updated.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		And if you look on every can we have now, every packaging thing we have now, it's it does not say that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, currently it just says we don't need a portion.
		So here here's here's another issue in uh my argument that I think this is a marketing ploy for you guys.
		Uh I looked into these nonprofits and I was shocked to find that uh relative to the size of your company and your sales, these are microscopic nonprofits.
		They look fantastic.
		Um, you know, I don't want to dis dis Uh uh disparage them in any meaningful way.
		But I'm just surprised to find, I mean, is is liquid death the principal contributor to these nonprofits, or do you give them like a check for 100 grand every year?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Well, five gyres is the biggest nonprofit we could find that is solely dedicated to helping with plastic pollution and plastic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So there's another, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how much how much money do you give them?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we can't disclose exactly what it is, but we are probably their biggest, if if not their biggest, one of their biggest contributors.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So, according to their 990, uh for the year of 2023, they brought in 1.2 million dollars.
		To be fair, I know that you guys have uh seen exponential growth over the past couple of years, but and I'm not trying to immediately just go totally dark and negative, because I think it's good that you guys are doing this, but it seemed it seemed low, to be honest.
		Um, that their total uh contributions for the year is 1.2.
		The prior year before that was 1.1.
		This is the latest 990 that I could find.
		And the current assets for uh Thirst was about 500,000, though I didn't pull up their direct 990.
		It just seems small for you know the the latest reporting period.
		Again, I'm not trying to disparage the fact that you actually do this, but I look at it and like to be if it's uh I looked at what they do, they do like cleanups and things like this.
		They advocate, they say that principally they're what they do is science.
		And so it seems like most of the financing is going to uh paying individuals who probably aren't getting a full salary, to be completely honest.
		I think it's respectable because most nonprofits I think are scams, but they have a big team, and at the rate uh of revenue that they bring in, these people are really they they seem to be really doing the work.
		But it does seem to be relatively low, especially considering the size of the company.
		Uh I will photo I will totally give, I think the estimates for total sales for liquid death in the in the ending fiscal year 2023 was like less than half of where it is now.
		So uh factoring in retail sales don't uh account for your total sales, you guys are making the drink, you're then selling them to distributors.
		It's probably substantially less.
		If you're doing a buck a can and uh 330 million cans, that's that's out the the retail store, right?
		The the bucket can was like retail price, I think you were you're pointing out retail price, yeah.
		Uh by us single uh tall boys are three dollars and thirty cents at our our at our sheets and our 7 Eleven.
		And then the the regular cans at Walmart are like a dollar eight per can.
		So are you guys still doing tall boys?
		Or is it now just all the small ones?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, we still have the tall boys.
		We we got rid of uh cases of tall boys this year for most of what we have.
		And then because basically, if you look at the beer industry, all single cans are big tall boys that you buy, like cold, all cases of beer is 12 ounce.
		So we kind of moved to that, but now we realize there's enough people who do want to buy full cases of big cans for a couple hero skews and flavors next year, we're gonna re-release some of the big cans.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So just um, because I'm I'm I'm I'm not trying to be so dark on this one because I think it's good that you're doing this, but am I wrong about my interpretation that the nonprofit only brought in 1.2 in total contributions and you guys are generating, you know, like I don't know, I don't know, tens of millions of dollars.
		Is it it it comes off immediately?
		Again, I'm trying to be careful because I don't want to be too mean.
		I actually respect this, but it does come off like you're contributing very little.
		It's a lot relative to the nonprofit, but 1.2 million for a nonprofit is actually on one of the is one of the smallest nonprofits, you know, in the industry.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		And and the reality is there's not a lot of nonprofits dedicated to plastic pollution.
		They're the biggest one that there is.
		Second, the other thing you have to keep in mind is yes, liquid death sold 300 million cans.
		We are still not yet a profitable company because as much as it cost, like we're still operating, like we said, on a 40 40 margin that took us forever to get there.
		Big reason for that was during COVID, ocean shipping costs went up five X. We used to produce our product in Austria because there literally was not a single co-packer in the United States who could put spring water in aluminum cans.
		Did not exist in 2018.
		Um, so we, you know, in 2022, we moved our whole supply chain to the US, you know, it ate our margins.
		But what that shows is like most beverage companies, the game is stacked against you with Coke and Pepsi to start a new brand.
		And most most new beverage companies, what you have to do is you start a company, You have to price your product where Coke and Pepsi prices it.
		Even though you don't have the economies of scale, you can't just say, oh, we're gonna be an eight dollar can of water next to $1.79 smart water because that's what we need to make a profit.
		No, you have to price where Coke price price is, lose money for years, raise capital, and then eventually you get to enough scale where your costs come down enough where, hey, you're actually maybe able to generate a profit.
		And for example, the company uh body armor, they're like the Gatorade type product that got bought by Coke for five billion, I think two years ago.
		They had to get to almost 600 million in revenue before they were actually generating profit.
		So even though we're a company that's not even making money, we are still donating.
		So yes, that's why we're not donating these massive amounts.
		As we get bigger and we have more profit and become a bigger company, we could continue to donate.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you are you planning to sell Liquid Death?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Our excitement is as a company, because we're a multi-category brand, and because the kind of marketing we do could never survive in the Coca-Cola corporate structure or Pepsi corporate structure.
		They any of the stuff we do would die in a focus group or would get killed by you know somebody in that system.
		That that's not the kind of marketing they make.
		So, yes, maybe one day someone could come to us and say, Hey, Liquid Death's taking enough of our market share, we're just gonna buy them.
		But for us, we're more excited about the potential of one day becoming a public company like Celsius or Monster or Vita Coco, where we still kind of control our own destiny.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No one can tell us how to market and we can uh you know continue to drive company value that's entertaining uh the possibility that a sale could come at some point.
		Have you guys taken any actions which could benefit you in a sale of the company?
		And uh specifically for the reason of maybe this will make us more uh appetizing to someone to buy us out.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I mean, yes, I mean, we work with a ton of smart people.
		We have a board of people that understand MA and and people who have been a part of other brands, sold brands, been a part of the Coke and Pepsi's who have bought other brands.
		So we have a pretty good hold on what it needs to look like if you are going to get acquired by someone.
		But again, most beverage companies are built to sell, as they call it.
		They're like, hey, we're gonna start this thing, we're gonna burn cash, and the whole plan the whole time is we're gonna flip it to Coke or Pepsi.
		Yeah, that was never our thing.
		Like we we built this now to kind of be a long-term company.
		Now, to your point, if Coke or Pepsi comes to us and says, hey, liquid death, two and a half billion, we got to think about that, right?
		Because there's a lot of people that have busted their ass with this company.
		Every employee of Liquid Death owns shares in the company.
		Um, Jason Ellis, as you know, owns shares in the company, like Dane Berman.
		Yeah, one of my favorite people on the planet and skaters who put together the liquid death skate team.
		Just unfortunately, after six years, uh, you know, we just realized, like, hey, we it just doesn't fit in like into our strategy.
		And you know, we we just can't do it anymore.
		And I as much as I loved Richie, I know that there wasn't many other sponsors he had, and it hit him really hard that hey, we can't keep paying you that couple hundred bucks a month anymore.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I don't think that was the issue for Richie.
		I think it felt more like you stabbed him in the back.
		And uh my understanding is that it that the entire skate team is now gone.
		And uh, you know, when when when Richie first told me to buy this stuff, and I did, and then shortly after found out there was plastic in it and got pissed because I thought, you know, the marketing was misleading.
		I said, for Richie's sake, to be polite, I'm not gonna start a public spat uh with liquid death.
		But then you went and asked the whole skate team, and I said, I don't gotta hold my tongue on this anymore.
		For Richie, not to, you know, I don't want to speak to his business, but I mean, the the the things this guy did for you was really it was really amazing.
		Um, he would always make sure he had a can of uh liquid death in every video we're we're producing to make sure it was on camera and everything else.
		And for 500 bucks a month, you cut them off.
		And he's been with you since the beginning.
		You really couldn't afford 500 bucks a month.
		I mean, Corey Duffel and the rest of the team, is it you're you're doing really that bad?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So let's talk about it again.
		Yeah, no, no, let's talk about this.
		I think it's important because I mean you're a skater, I'm a skater.
		Let's talk about skateboarding and liquid death for a second.
		So the skate team started when in 2019, we had like no sales, like we were a small, Small company.
		I went to uh it was a skate event where uh it was one of the concerts.
		It wasn't warp tour, but it was like some kind of skate and concert thing.
		I met uh Dane Berman there and Adam uh Arunski, and I we had Liquid Death at this event, and they were videoing themselves like doing stuff like over a can.
		And I I got to, I'm like, hey, this I started this company.
		He's like, oh, this is cool.
		And I got to be friends with Dane.
		And Dane said, hey, maybe I could put together like a little skate team for Liquid Death.
		And I was like, hey, look, like, we don't have big budgets for this right now.
		Also, from the beginning, our strategy as a company was never to try to go into skate in extreme sports.
		We did it because I personally skateboard and love skateboarding.
		But the reality is Monster and Red Bull and energy drinks, they write massive checks into that world that we could never compete with.
		So it would be really dumb for us to go try to buy our way in to skateboarding against all these other big energy drinks that throw so much money around.
		But it's like, hey, if we could do this thing really cheaply, and you know, these are cool guys, and Dane's like, yeah, I'll get some cool guys together.
		We did this for six years.
		Now, in no way does it actually fit into what the marketing strategy was.
		So in the early days, me as the CEO, my personal likes, I can kind of keep around.
		But now, as we get bigger, when we have a team of people and marketing strategy, and they're like, hey, Mike, like you know, we've been paying these guys for six years.
		We don't really track, is it doing anything for the brand?
		Is it selling any more water?
		Like, we're just kind of doing it because you like these guys.
		Like, we might have to kind of start phasing this out.
		So we we had to do that.
unidentified		I don't like the way you had to do it.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		It's part of my team.
		I have to respect my team to a level to say, hey, Mike, this doesn't fit into the strategy anymore.
		We have to do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What was your budget per month for the skate team?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I think all in, like, they're probably to pay all these guys every year.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I think it's like 40 grand a year that all in we're spending on the skate team.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I hear you on the uh, hey, we don't know if there's real value in these guys kind of statement, I guess.
		But it's it's kind of crazy for a company recently evaluated at 1.4 billion dollars to be like, you know, these guys that have been here since the beginning, it costs us 40 grand per year.
		Let's fire them.
		And so, you know, my my thing, uh uh, I know people have already tried to make in the argument.
		The only reason I'm arguing is because I'm friends with Richie and and and Jason and some other people.
		Uh I just think you know, look, I I want to stress this.
		I actually think Liquid is a great company.
		I just don't like the marketing that you do, and I think you should fix it.
		And really, I have very little to say after the fact if you do fix the marketing and say, like, we get it, cans use plastic, we're gonna try and be better than everybody else.
		Then there's nothing.
		It's like, okay, all right, we'll make that the play.
		Outside of all of that, as we have like the last few minutes here, bro.
		I there's I don't I don't see an argument to be like, I'm a skateboarder, it costs me 40 grand a year to keep a skate team on, and we just brought in a bunch of investments.
		Like, what's for so it's like 3,600 bucks a month to keep the guys from the beginning on who have who have never missed a beat for you and you cut them off?
		That's that's that's shady.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		It's not shady, Tim.
		Like you're you're basically saying, okay, if you become a liquid death skater, you should be paid forever.
		Doesn't matter if you if if you're measuring what you're doing, what you're posting.
		Also, I have I can show you a text message.
		When we brought Richie on, about I think it was a year into it, he came to me and said, Mike, I want to produce my own YouTube show that's kind of funny about skateboarding.
		Will will liquid death give me the money to do it?
		I said, How much is it gonna cost?
		He said 50,000 for 10 episodes.
		I said, Richie, there's there's no way we can do that.
		Maybe we can swing 20 grand.
		And he's like, Oh, okay.
		So we gave Rick, we wired 20,000 to Richie.
		He made three episodes of this show.
		It got no views, and he got really bummed out.
		He's like, I don't know why there's no views, and he gave up.
		He didn't even make the whole 10 episodes.
unidentified		We didn't even get pissed at him.
unidentified		Yeah, even though we wired them the money.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		We said, Hey, look, Richie, you tried, it just didn't work out, it's all good, whatever.
		And we still kept paying him for years.
		So it's not like we've done a lot.
		And of all the skaters, I have a text from Corey Duffel from uh Dane.
		They all were like, Mike, I just want to say thank you so much for the last six years.
		Like you paid us literally, Corey Doofle said, you basically paid us to do nothing for six years.
unidentified		And I really appreciate that.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		There's it wasn't easy for us to go find sponsors at our various stages of career, you know, where that is.
		Thank you so much.
		Like, I appreciate everything I had.
		Richie was the only one who went and you know posted something out of anger.
		And I will say, I don't like the way that Richie was let go.
		I wasn't even, I knew that we were moving on.
		I had no idea when it was gonna happen, and that I found out after the fact, oh, someone just called them and said, This is it.
		I wanted to more personally do this.
		And yes, I was not happy about that.
		But I look at the rationale of it, that that's a whole different story.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I have no logical argument for your business rationale, and I think it is largely correct.
		Uh, and so I'll make sure that you know everybody who's listening understands this.
		I run a business as well.
		There comes a time when you're like, listen, man, we've done this for a long period of time.
		We've got to wrap things up.
		My understanding is my understanding is you offered to keep paying everybody for you know several months after the fact, even though the team, I don't know if it was you, but whoever was in charge said, we're gonna we're actually letting you know it's happening now, but we're gonna give you several months lead time, which is respectable.
		So I I just think it's kind of like the personal and uh professionally, you make a good point.
		You're correct.
		Personally, right now, skateboarding is at its worst moment ever.
		And so to see a company as successful as yours be like, it's 40 grand to keep these guys in skateboarding in some capacity.
		Nah, let's not do it.
		It feels like no love of the game.
		And there's no real logical argument that I have against you for doing so.
		It's just like it sucks that skateboarding is burning down and this is just another log on the fire.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I and I totally get that.
		And I hope that in the future, as Liquid Death actually, because so much of our focus right now, it's like, hey, look, we've grown, we've raised a lot of capital.
		We're at the point now where it's like you need to become a big boy company that's actually making profit and making money, or it's just gonna go away, right?
		So when it starts getting to like profitability, that's where all of a sudden little amounts of money here and there all start adding up, and that's really what you have to do to really drive how do you how do you become a profitable company?
		And if we get bigger in the future and and and we have more marketing budget to spend on things, I would love to maybe get back into skateboarding in a much bigger way where we can actually write the kind of checks that we have to compete against with Monster or Red Bull or any of these other companies that can just throw money at guys, like how are we actually gonna go make make a big debt unless we're we just have so much money to spend on?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So, just two two last quick questions.
		Um, this one you may require a longer answer, but uh when I talk to a lot of people about the brand, and you know, when people I got a bunch of messages from people when I was tweeting, a lot of people say that they there's two reasons they won't drink it.
		One, there's like this hippie dippy, it's not really political, but there are these people who believe that water contains emotional energy.
		I'm sure you're aware of this.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we made a commercial making fun of that very recently.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, they're like water molecules, they're like, I won't drink anything called death because it's bad for the spirit.
		But there are people who have said your either mock or legitimate cursing and satanic worship or prayer of the water means they'll never touch it.
		And I'm not, I'm not you know, that deeply uh theistic.
		So I'm like, I don't know.
		Like I drank it, whatever, I got a camera here.
		But um, do you think that's gonna impact your growth?
		This this there, there are a lot of people who are rather pious, I suppose, who won't go near the brand, and that's gonna inhibit your your your growth capability.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, two things.
		One, it's not a lot of people.
		Um, I I think most people always forget about social media.
		What you may or may not know is like the 90 10-1 rule.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yep.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, 90% of people who are viewing social media do not interact with it.
		They treat it more like a television, they're just watching kind of the circus.
		10% of the people watching social media will do a light action, like maybe I'll click the like button.
		Maybe that's 10%.
		Only one percent of the people consuming social will actually take the time to write and comment on something.
		And then of that one percent, how many are the people who are like the angry people?
		So I tell people all the time, people try to make business decisions based on angry things they see on social media.
		But the reality of what's happening is like imagine being in a football stadium sold out.
		There's one group of 10 people at the top screaming that this team should sell and they're the worst team ever.
		How much does the actual ownership of that team going to put stock in those 10 people when you've got literally a full stadium of other people who are all bought in?
		But because of the way social media works, you only see the negative stuff really easy.
		So it could feel like it's a lot more than it is.
		But you really have to look at no, no, no, what's actually happening?
		I tell my team all the time, hey, if we have 20,000 likes and two angry comments, I'll take 20,000 to two all day.
		You're never gonna have a hundred percent of people who love you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Same as true for Yelp and Google reviews.
		So I guess just last question.
		First, I I do appreciate you having the conversation.
		Uh it's very, very respectable.
		Uh, will you uh change the uh uh in some meaningful way the the branding or whatever on these cans to make it very apparent that uh there's plastic in them?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so we are starting to make the updates of having our tagline be more specific to say death to plastic bottles.
		So we're gonna have that on cans packaging.
		Now, the way the cans and packaging works, it's gonna probably have to happen in cycles over time because there's inventory and we're not obviously gonna like burn inventory.
		And again, what we feel like is that the number of people that it's actually, you know, that this is actually an issue for is small.
		So we're gonna continue to update it.
		We already have it updated on our website, and we'll continue to, you know, where we can make things very clear on the packaging, but also again, be very clear about what that means.
		Like just saying it contains plastic, but being clear about okay, well, so what?
		What does that mean?
		Is it is it worse for me?
		Is there more micro plastic?
		Is it less than a bottle?
		Because you don't just want to give a blanket statement that people could then misinterpret three other ways.
		It's like every time you try to fix one problem, you can make three more, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here's what here's what what I would appreciate.
		And I it's very difficult.
		I I don't think you can write out this huge paragraph like you done your site explaining that cans contain substantially less plastic, though there is still gonna be some in there.
		How do you let people know that you you are doing better than a than a PET bottle, but the the can is line with plastic, you're still substantially better off.
		It's very difficult to convey, which is why I took issue with just hashtag death to plastic.
		I don't feel that death to plastic bottles uh rectifies any of the past or anything like that.
		Not that I know how you you would do that other than update the site.
		But uh as far as changing the marketing so that people know you're not saying outright all plastic or the can doesn't contain plastic, it's probably a a step in the right direction.
		Yeah, you know.
		I got one more question for you, actually, because I'm looking at this can.
		Uh the iced tea says manufactured for liquid death in Los Angeles, California, and the ingredient just has water.
		What's the water source for this?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		So for almost all uh soda, iced tea, anything that's not bottled water, they're using what's called usually RO, reverse osmosis water.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which is that what you guys are doing?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		For for those for for our flavored beverages, we use reverse osmosis water, which is basically it's municipal water, tap water that gets filtered of literally everything that's possibly in the water is filtered out of it.
		It's how basically all soda, all drinks are made.
		That's the other thing about bottled water that most people don't realize.
		Most of the big bottled water companies, essentia, uh aquafina, Dasani, that's all just purified municipal tap water.
		It's not actual premium source spring water.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So this is actually really funny.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Dasani's water source is municipal public water supplies.
unidentified		Yes.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		And they sell, they do a billion dollars in revenue.
		They put tap water in plastic bottles and they sell a they're the they're the number two bottled water brand.
		It's crazy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So just just to clarify the the the rest in peach that I'm holding, you guys take it's municipal water that's reverse osmosis filtered and then used to brew your drinks.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		Exactly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay, right on.
		Well, um, I think I've I've I've made my claim.
		I think if you guys are honest in in your commitment to you know, I will add what a silly debate for me to be having, you know, disrespect to you, just like getting me getting angry over the plastic branding on a liquid death thing.
		I tweet about it, and then here we're having a conversation.
		Um, I respect that you're having the conversation.
		And if you if you uh our guys are committed to updating that so that people are aware, then uh I don't know.
		I I guess uh I'm content, you know.
		That's all that's all I'm at about.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		All right.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		And if you need a show sponsor, you you know who to call.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, here it goes, huh?
		Uh yeah.
		Uh well, anyway, man, is there anything else you wanted to add before we wrap up?
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		No, like I said, thank I appreciate you having the call.
		And again, again, like I'm big on a big reason I I'm I'm a fan of you, even though we might not totally align on certain political things and things like that.
		What I do like is that I do believe the problem right now is most of us here in the world, we live in the middle.
		And there's so much extreme on either side that is somehow steering the conversation in that.
		And I feel like we need more people getting in the middle where it's like people just need to talk to each other and not have it be, well, I'm left, so I'm never gonna fucking talk to someone on the right, or you know, everything about Trump is just he's a fucking villain and a Nazi and everything else.
		Like, yeah, I don't love Trump, but is there some stuff I think he does is good?
		Sure, yeah.
		Is there a lot of shitty things he does?
		Yeah, but it's like I I feel like we need more conversation and make try to somehow get back to like just having dialogues and not having it be just pure fucking vitriol on the other side.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I uh unfortunately don't know if we're trending in a positive direction in that regard, but I do appreciate you having conversation.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you got like social media or anything you want to shout out before we wrap?
unidentified		No, no, no.
mike cessario ▲ ● ▼		I think we're good.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right on, man.
		Well, I again I do appreciate it.
		Thanks for the call.
		Thanks for the conversation.
		Uh I saw that you updated your website the other day, thought that was a good thing.
		And uh I appreciate you being as candid as you have.
		I look forward to seeing the new labels on Liquid Death.
		And I will add, I am impressed, and you're doing substantially better than literally any other beverage CEO in addressing concerns consumers have.
		I can't believe you gave me the time of the day to actually yell at you on the internet about why I'm pissed about the marketing, but you did it, so I have to respect it.
		So uh brother, thanks for hanging out.
		And I guess I'll just I'll see you on X. All right, thanks, brother.
		Have a go and take care.
		Well, I gotta give it to him at least as far as it goes with that.
		Uh he had the conversation, he addressed the concerns.
		We'll see what it means moving forward.
		And uh I will stress it is kind of funny and silly that it's like the least uh important thing, I guess.
		Um there there's some good stuff you clarified.
		Uh I will reiterate my position just as I wrap this up.
		Death to plastic leads people to believe they don't use plastic.
		The can itself says it contains 70% recycled materials.
		Saying infinitely recyclable implies that they are actually recycling 100% and they're not.
		There's plastic in it.
		And uh again, it says literally in the can 70% recycled material.
		So they are still a portion being reused.
		The aluminum is.
		And I'll also stress when I looked at their nonprofits, I try to be light on this one.
		I'm not here to just rag on someone and be insulting or mean.
		But for a small nonprofit to bring in only 1.2 million and this company to make as much as they do, I'm curious what their actual profits are and if it really is that much.
		He says they're actually not.
		Uh I also think it's absolutely hilarious because I'll I'm I'm gonna pull this one back up.
		Uh he owes me a million dollars because uh he made the bet.
		10% of the profits from every can is donated to help kill plastic pollution.
		And he says, that's not correct.
		That's wrong.
		Well, that's what you're marketing.
		And I will stress this.
		Well, I'm not gonna be petty.
		I respect I I gotta put it in perspective.
		Ain't no other drink CEO is gonna come on here and have this conversation with me.
		But I'm going to stress my friend, someone someone commented 30% disappears.
		Fair point.
		It it oxidizes.
		I'm going to stress he did say to me, he knew a portion of their consumer base, believed their products did not contain plastic, didn't update the packaging.
		So that that still irks me.
		I mean, that's still kind of shady, right?
		But not everybody is gonna be perfect.
		And if he's if he's gonna address it, he's gonna take action now because there's some weight behind it, he's doing better than everybody else, I guess.
		So I'll take I'll take it.
		Hey, this is a special live stream.
		I had fun.
		Uh Mike, I appreciate it.
		Thank you guys for watching this uh weird stream and conversation.
		I think even outside of what my argument or disagreement may be with Mike, the conversation may have been very informative for many of you to understand packaging processing, drink monopolies.
		Dude's got a great point about how you can't get into the space because Pepsi and Coke own everything.
		People have asked us why we don't do cold brew cans.
		We wanted to, because the expense the the cost is is just absolutely insane.
		As for our gag product pool water, we can sell this locally at low cost.
		If we want to have this be available in other regions, I don't know, that's where it gets crazy.
		Because we can actually the the this the supplier and producer is actually within 10 minutes driving from us.
		That's why we could do this.
		But if you do order it, we are going to put it up shipping's going to be expensive depending on where you are if you're local it'll be dirt cheap.
		So the other thing I'm going to stress too um they could do glass right I'm I'm not going to attack liquid death because they're not a glass bottle company.
		I'm angry over their marketing because if they want to say death to plastic even death to plastic bottles like you're saying is going to do I still think it's fair for me to say Topo Chico, Minaragua, other glass bottles with single use pop-top caps have substantially they have 10% of the plastic that's in this can.
		You could do better but you know let the perfect be the end and be the good guys thanks for hanging out this has been fun.
	I'm going to go eat food because normally I'd be eating food by now I really enjoyed this and I I really do appreciate Mike having this conversation.
	I wish liquid death the best and I don't I don't want anybody to fail.
	And uh it it hurts my heart that he fired a skate team but he's not wrong mathematically he's just wrong spiritually.

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