Israel VS Palestine DEBATE, Misfit Patriot VS Rathbone w/ Alex Stein
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Okay, so I think what we're going to do is we're going to start and give you guys like three to five minutes, however much time you guys need to kind of give an opening statement.
And since you are pro-Israel and right now, let's be honest, a propaganda war is not going in Israel's favor, we're going to give the floor to Miss Patriot to save Benjamin Netanyahu and this propaganda campaign that they are so desperately failing at.
Yeah, it's actually, it's no shock that Israel is losing the propaganda war.
As I said before, you know, they're outnumbered 151 as far as, let's say, Muslim nations and the people that support them versus Jews and the people that support Israel.
So when people make the argument that because they're losing, let's say, support online or support in polling, it's really like that's kind of like, yeah, no shit.
So I don't know how you really fix that.
I think that you sort of ignore that and just do what you need to do.
And everyone says that I'm like a huge staunch supporter of Israel when I'm not.
I say this all the time.
I'm perfectly fine with them doing whatever they need to do to protect their nation.
I think that they have a right to exist.
Obviously, I think New Zealand has a right to exist.
I think that Ireland has a right to exist.
As far as nation states go, if my country was attacked, let's say Mexico came in and raped and murdered like 1,200 people and beheaded a bunch of people and filmed it and put it on Telegram and we didn't go and freaking destroy that nation, I think that we would be a huge failure.
So the argument that Israel should not be doing what they're doing.
I would argue is silly because we have so many historical examples, I mean, World War II and a bunch of different things that we could point to as to why they should.
But as far as this debate goeses, I don't know much about my opponent.
So I would take my arguments to him from three points, right?
Are you making a political, moral, or theological argument?
If you're making a moral argument, my question would be, why don't you make the same argument?
about other conflicts, which I don't know if he does.
If you're making a political argument, I'd ask you to make your case without making an argument for morality, because politics and morality kind of don't align.
And if you're making a theological argument, I'll ask you to make your argument without arguing politically, because we're going to be talking about theological.
I think what people do is they conflate all of these issues and try to make this soup of theological, moral, political, when there's conflicting narratives.
And that's my biggest gripe with the people that argue against Israel.
Are you arguing against the Jews?
Are you arguing against a nation state with a government that has 120 people in it?
Because if you're making those arguments, I can pick them apart pretty easily.
International institutions are arrayed against Israel at this point.
They are condemning Israel.
Every relevant authority that pertains to diplomacy, international laws, humanitarian laws condemn Israel for the illegal occupation.
For me, it's the principal contradiction between an occupied people.
and an occupying army and occupying force.
That is the legal distinction that's being made.
And I am simply transmitting those facts, sharing that information with you because it's not about what I personally believe or feel.
It's about what international institutions believe.
And, you know, we can go into the details, you know, further, but at this point, they've lost the public opinion.
They've lost, and I'm part of that overwhelming majority of the public opinion that believes that Israel is an apartheid ethno-state committing a mass atrocity.
Yes, it is a genocide.
And I think the evidence of that is very clear.
So, you know, I'm happy to go into it further, but I disagree with basically everything you just said.
That's not shocking.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, let's not surprise.
It's not about Jews.
It's about the nations.
Like you said, you can't be Israel neutral and then pro-Zionist.
Okay.
I'd argue you can.
Okay.
Well, you can't because Israel is pro-Zionist.
And if you are just saying, well, I'm just going to stay neutral.
You are preserving the status quo.
You're preserving the inherent violence of this settler colony that is ethnically cleansing a land that is an indigenous majority of Palestinians, Muslims, however you want to classify them.
They're not Jewish and Israel is trying to establish a Jewish demographic majority in a land that is not demographically majority Jewish.
So what do they have to do?
They have to ethnically cleanse and massacre every single non-Jew in order to establish first rate citizenship for Jewish people.
And that's abominable.
That's deplorable.
It shouldn't have no place in modern society and we should reject it and rebuke it and detest it outright.
Yeah, I mean, well, I mean, fundamentally my position is America first, not America only.
I mean, obviously American foreign policy is to be realistic.
You're going to engage with other powers.
I mean, there is, yeah, there is a moral concern, obviously, with Israel's actions in the region, broadly speaking.
But then there also is, I mean, a case to be made for a Jewish state, right?
I mean, after the circumstances of the 20th century.
So, yeah, I mean., I understand the case both ways, but I do agree that I don't think people's opinion is turning on Israel purely because of propaganda.
I do think their actions in the region are a bit concerning, and specifically the United States, I think, to some degree is in violation of our America-first.
And, you know, I want to go back to a day and age when Jews made movies and not used bombs on churches.
You know, that's what they're better at.
You know, like Jewish people are obviously very talented.
They're very smart.
They're very successful.
But when they tell me that they accidentally bombed a church or that they accidentally bombed a hospital on live TV, I just think that they're too smart and too talented to make those mistakes.
So for me, why I'm starting to, I guess, get not radicalized against Israel.
I support Israel's right, obviously.
But I'm just getting very frustrated because every single thing that we see on TV or on the internet makes it almost impossible to defend.
So I'm happy that we're having this conversation.
So the first thing that I want to talk about, and you brought it up, Rathbone, is that, and Misfit, I want to get your opinion.
Benjamin Netanyahu is considered by the UN to be a war criminal.
So why does the UN have a different opinion of him than Donald Trump?
And how guilty is he if they think he's a war criminal and obviously America doesn't.
Like it's a silly argument to say it was created by the United States, therefore it's pro-American, right?
unidentified
are anti-american they support the same people that It's just that this is the international institution set up by the world superpower post-World War II, the United States, the global hegemon.
created the UN to administer international diplomacy to create peaceful settlements.
country doesn't recognize that country right right so try not to speak at the same time i know this is going to happen a little bit but let's get back let's let's take let's break this down i'm going to simplify.
This argument, though, is kind of frustrating because there's even small tribes off of islands of Indonesia and they don't have a currency.
They don't have anything in Australia, Indonesia, the main countries that they're connected to will do whatever they can to protect themselves.
Those will be Australians, they're not like But I'm saying just because they don't have a government doesn't mean that they don't have a right to exist.
know there's something kind of cool about Goliath my point is my point is it's it's not a country just because some people some countries say it is you have to go through actual steps and you have to become an actual country and they're not an actual country you want them to be a country that doesn't change anything they are not a country they're not a country because the world superpower.
A genocide is the systematic, right, intentional killing of a people group of ethnicity, religion, or origin.
It is not anti-terrorism.
It is not trying to kill Hamas.
Because if you throw leaflets down and tell people, get the fuck out of there there.
If you drop more bombs than you kill civilians, then that's not a genocide.
If you're vaccinating the same people that you're trying to genocide, if you have people that you're trying to genocide in your government working, living in your fucking country, it's not a genocide.
You can't call it a genocide when they're doing such a bad job at it.
Israel could commit a genocide tomorrow.
unidentified
Really a silly argument to make for the simple fact that You can look at the Gaza Strip right now and 90 to 95 percent of it is reduced to rubble.
The IDF has internally reported that at least 83% of the people that are killed in Gaza are civilians and not combatants.
This is, this has been, excuse me, this has been admitted by Israeli officials who have made public statements that have acknowledged that yes, they are combatants.
That shows genocidal intent.
And indeed, when you look at the Gaza Strip, you can see the destruction of an entire civilization.
They have been removed from their place of origin, from their homes, transferred to the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
That's a war crime already, okay?
They are being systematically targeted because as they're being starved, they're being lured into these bait food traps where they're shot down and, and, and even, and, by God, if they are given flour, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll.
They'll have drugs in it.
You know, they'll be laced with poison and by the time that they get it.
When the U.S. and the Royal Air Force bombed Hamburg, Germany, specifically targeting civilian areas in order to break the Nazi regime, 9,000 tons of bombs were dropped, right?
And what happened?
It demoralized the Germans.
Because when you wear...
When you are in a war, the way you solve a war is you make it untenable for the other side to continue.
If the thing that those people care about is their infrastructure, their buildings, their civilian population, whatever, that's what happens.
Is there a genocide going on in Ukraine, in Russia, or is that two fucking people fighting because one of them started a fucking war?
And this is what you fucking people don't understand.
You keep using the word genocide.
You keep on trying to hammer it into people's heads.
It's not a fucking genocide just because you say it is.
There is a specific.
unidentified
You're right.
It's not a genocide because I say it is.
It's a genocide because that is what international institutions have concluded.
I think you guys have a good point, though, that the Internet is hurting their cause right now.
Because even though your argument is going to be, well, Palestine is running a great propaganda campaign.
I saw Megan Kelly say that.
And that's, for me, that is so dumb to think that people in caves or, you know, literally in tunnels are running some strategic marketing campaign that is making Israel look bad.
But to that point though, why won't Jordan, and this is, I guess, to you, Rathbone.
I am of the opinion these people should get a free house somewhere maybe in Jordan or Egypt, but Jordan and Egypt don't really want to take the Palestinians.
There's a whole side of this other story that doesn't get reported because Israel— He was living there and just left because of all this stuff.
Yeah, no, he just left.
He and his wife just left.
unidentified
People don't want to, you know, do business, begin getting bombed, you know.
And when you start wars with seven other countries, when you are belligerent and aggressive against everyone else in the region, people tend not to want to do business with you.
You know, it's the same thing that happened in Saudi Arabia with Yemen.
They were embroiled in a civil war.
Saudi Arabia was bombing Yemen.
Yemen was actually retaliating against Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia wants to be a global hub for capitalism, wants to be a good trading partner for Western European countries and the United States.
And they can't do that when they're getting bombed.
And nobody wants to do, you know, nobody wants to do business with people that are, you know, their investments aren't safe, you know?
Well, that's why it's a really, really good plan for Donald Trump to take over the Gaza Strip and turn it into some type of Abrahamic Accord related hub of trade and currency.
Imagine if, imagine if I spoke with the opposition leader to the King of Jordan and he was talking about how they'd love to welcome in more Palestinians.
Egypt doesn't want them because a lot of Palestinians are supporters of Hamas, right?
And they need to go somewhere.
If you are Hamas or a supporter of Hamas, sorry, you have lost your right to be there.
To quote my favorite retarded comedian, Dave Smith, that's a non-argument, right?
Because it's not the same thing.
The war in Iraq was a huge mistake, and it was a political war.
It was an operation through George Bush's narcissism that did that.
This is an ideological war.
It is not a political war.
It's not a war between two I would say dictators who are fighting over land.
These people, not the Palestinians, all of them, but any supporter of Hamas wants to fucking wipe off the map every single Jew every single Israeli every single Zionist and when they're done they want to come to America and do the same thing it is a radicalized ideology that hates everything about the West hates everything about Christianity hates everything about Judaism they want to impose Sharia law all over the world and they're doing a damn good job of it because if you look at the UK you look at the rape statistics in Germany you look at everything going on
in Europe right now it's becoming a fucking problem so what I would say Israel has not only the right but the duty to do is to make sure there is not a single Hamas member or a single Hamas supporter left.
left in Israel, left in Gaza, left in the West Bank, left in anywhere fucking near them.
Because if they are, they're just going to do this again.
So I think that I would love to hear this support on my one point.
Do you agree that Hamas is a terrorist organization?
If you think that Hamas is a terrorist organization, was the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto were they terrorists when they tried to up rise again they're Nazi oppressors okay so because that's the same exact material power defense biggest false equivalency that I don't know I mean really is that a bad false equivalency I feel like he's unbiased because if you are in the Jewish ghetto and you're fighting against the Nazis you would consider them a hero today to
unidentified
be fair like they were targeting soldiers where with Hamas there's more deliberate attacks they did they did create they did attack civilians they they did kill indiscriminately they made rudimentary makeshift weapons which were imprecise they mustered they marshallalled any capabilities that they could to violently resist their own annihilation, which they knew.
And did they think that that was going to be successful for them?
Of course not.
They knew that they were going to die.
They knew that the Nazis were going to.
So what was the point of that violence?
Why didn't they just lay down and die for the Nazis?
If that's your argument, why wouldn't they just do that?
Now, did the Jews in Warsaw occupied Germany or sorry march into Germany and murder and rape a bunch of people did they set people on fire no and neither did Hamas yes they did no they didn't you're repeating the same thing I did did you see it did you think did you see when you when you saw when you saw hand gliders uh parasailing over an apartheid wall when you saw bulldozers bulldozing through an apartheid wall did you think that that was the wehrmacht
when you heard the coming you heard the soldiers destroy israel are you fucking out of your mind when you heard the terrorists calling his parents like i killed 10 jews i killed 10 jews that's resistance have you um have you watched the documentaryary?
unidentified
What are you talking about?
The most of the people that were killed on that day were killed by Israel according to their Hannibal Directive.
they kill a civilian intentionally, then it's a war crime.
It will be You made it sound like the Hannibal, hold on.
You made it sound like the Hannibal Directive says, kill anybody you want for any reason, including civilians.
That's not what the Hannibal Directive is.
The Hannibal Directive is a directive that pretty much every military has, where if you have a soldier that's being taken captive, you can take out the soldier because let's say they have sensitive information.
Let's say they have military intelligence that you don't want to give them.
Yeah, that's where that's where that's where you're talking about.
You do have to admit it.
Entire, So Zach, I think that you would be very naive to think that if they're using a Blackhawk helicopter, that it would be very possible that a civilian could get hit.
what the the i know what for it and i'm talking about i know what he's referring i have talking about publications that have reported according to the idea that What publication?
But real quick, this is how we do know vaccines are safe and effective because one of the most successful ceasefires in Gaza was so that they could do a vaccine campaign for the cause.
So that's how you know Israel loves those vaccines are very safe and effective if they're giving them out free like that.
You know, it's so wild that you are saying these people went into these kibutzis in Israel and somehow still figured out a way to blame Israel, right?
It's like, oh my God, they killed civilians when they were attacked.
Like, it's like, okay, if I don't know, thousands of terrorists that just came in and soldiers were freaking trying to shoot them and accidentally shot a civilian, and then a year and a half later, you're like, can you believe our military shot an American?
You said that Everybody that died that day is the fault of Hamas because they instituted Operation Al-Aqsa Flood.
They burst through the apartheid wall.
They attacked Israel.
That is not what international laws say.
That is not what universal humanitarian laws say.
Every, you know, you read the articles expressed in the UN Charter, it makes clear that repatriation between the Palestinians and between the Israelis.
The Israelis are legally known and concluded to be occupying people.
They are an occupying state.
How?
Because they took land in 1967 and ever, like going back to my previous point, you and Resolution 242 when they started the Six Day War in 1967.
When you say that the Arab-Israeli War, that is a misclassification.
That is a straw man of what is actually happening.
So what you're saying is that if Nazis came into your home and took your home and hogtied you and put your family in the basement and said, okay this is our home now and you if you fought back, then you're a terrorist.
The Nazis came in and they took my home, and then now it's a war well i do want to make the point i mean misfit don't you have to understand that if your dad got blown up by israel wouldn't that radicalize you a little bit so i mean can't you be a little empathetic to them i mean uh if your dad gets bombed your grandfather got bombed and you know yeah i understand i understand that there's there's the argument that if you um you know if you go after terrorists you create more terrorists right and and it's it's an argument that's predicated upon the fact that every conflict that we've
america and other nations have gotten into where you try to enact regime changes they fail miserably because there's this this um you know resistance they don't want to change they don't want want to go under your new laws and your new rules.
And we don't, God forbid, we try to fucking civilize you people.
Like we are the bullies that kind of start all this drama.
But to your point though, the Islamophobia, this thing, not all Muslims are bad, right?
I mean, what?
I mean, so when you label like every Muslim is a terrorist, I mean, I didn't label every Muslim.
I know, and I'm not even trying to get on you.
I just feel like that narrative, we've created that narrative, and that is kind of a propaganda war that every Muslim guy is trying to blow us up, which is obviously not true.
You think every single one of these instances, over 60,000 over the past 50 years that have been documented, whether you agree with the numbers or not, you think all of those are resistance.
But what Israel is doing right now, after we watched on Telegram what happened on October 7th, is not resistance.
Do you see the problem in your logic?
unidentified
I see the problem in your logic in not understanding that Israel, according to the world consensus, is the belligerent occupier ever since 1967 formally.
So 20 years, two decades before the creation of Hamas, there was the acquisition of territory that Israel occupied subsequently settled.
And that's two decades before the creation of Hamas.
So you have to ask yourself, and I know this is hard for you to have self-reflection, but in the 20 years since the War of Acquisition in 1967, 1987, what was going on?
What was Israel doing that would have led to Palestinians feeling as though we need to...
It's concluded by every relevant authority in this matter, okay, that Israel has imposed an elite.
an illegal blockade and siege of the Gaza Strip, they have starved.
Would you agree that you have working eyes and ears based off of this conversation?
I think that's in the affirmative.
Have you seen the videos of Hamas firing on their own civilians, right?
When they get those aid trucks in?
unidentified
You haven't seen them.
That's Israeli.
That's Israeli.
That's Israeli forces that have done that.
that have done that no absolutely and again again again again even if that was true which i which i even if it was true it's fucking true we're talking about a belligerent occupier occupying people why are they shooting their own they don't get the right to say they don't get the right to say oh look at them So is Hamas looking at what they're doing?
So they're engaging, they're stealing the loot, they're looting the aid.
And we had a civil war over the issue of slavery, right?
And some people thought they were right and the other people thought they were right.
And they fucking killed each other.
And I think that it was necessary to end slavery.
I wouldn't say that the North and the South both didn't believe what they were doing is correct.
But I think that we can all agree that one side was right, one side was wrong, and the good guys won.
And this is no different.
This is no different.
This is you have the Palestinians, not the Palestinian people, not the Palestinian people, the Hamas supporting Palestinians, and you have the de facto.
government that they elected.
And this is why they don't have a right to any of these arguments of, we're a territory, you're occupying.
Because the Palestinians got together like 20 years ago, and they said, you know who we want to be our government?
It's because the Israelis installed subcontractors to carry out the duties of occupation in the name of the PLO.
And the Palestinians correctly realized that their situation was not changing.
The Oslo Accords in the 90s did not come to a peaceful appropriation of their rights.
And so what do you do?
You become disillusioned.
You're smug and you're not under occupation.
You don't know what it's like being systematically starved.
You don't know what it's like to have your families bombed in the middle of the night.
You don't understand what it's like to have these campaigns of terror instituted against your territory, against your homes and families.
So you don't get it.
But the Palestinians understood that under the PLO, they were being subverted.
They were being subjugated and it was really just a Mossad cutout at that point.
They installed subcontractors to take on the duties of occupation and so that the Israelis could wash their hands clean and say, look, we're not really involved, even though they were very intimately involved.
And that's been spelled out throughout the entire 90s.
And that led to the Second Intifada, which began peacefully.
It was a peaceful protest against the occupation forces.
And guess what happens?
According to the Israeli minister at the time who was involved in the Oslo Accords, Shlomo Ben Ami says that the IDF escalated the situation.
It was an authentic Palestinian struggle for self-determination, the second intifada I'm talking about.
I'm listening to this.
You're listening?
Okay.
2000, 2001, the second intifada began peacefully.
It was a peaceful protest against the occupying force and the finance minister, Shlomo Ben Ami, or maybe he was the foreign minister, I forget.
He concluded that it began peacefully and it was an authentic Palestinian struggle for self-determination.
And it only escalated into an all-out war when the IDF started shooting them down after, you know, maybe a kid was throwing a rock or something, you know?
that well it's we could go back to the beginning of the 3,500 Biblical rites have no status in the world today you can't invoke the Bible we're talking about modern history dude let's start with the the creation of the nation state of Israel yeah okay that was a that was a the the UNGA 181 partition plan which gave Israel the international birth certificate was itself a declaration of war I do not That's what that's what I do not agree with the decision
Theodore Herzl's vision for a modern state of Israel where Jews have a right to live in peace and exist in that particular location, which was not his formula.
It wasn't even really part of the original plan to be a state.
unidentified
If you read Theodore Herzl's diary, he makes clear that he knew that they would have to dispossess and spirit, quote, spirit the penniless population of the territory to come over to our side.
After we've dispossessed and taken their lands and resettled it, We're going to give them breadcrumbs to make sure that they're going to be copaceted to the whole situation.
But let's look.
They knew it was dispossession and depriving of the land, resources, and labor of these indigenous peoples was always part of the plan.
That's the formulation of Zionism at the beginning.
Okay, but let's just at least agree on the point that Israel was created and whether you agree with it or not, it was created.
It's a nation, right?
And then there was a dispute over which...
that is sorry there's there A lot of deals were turned down by the Palestinians and they were offered this territory and that territory and they said, no, no, no.
And they started war after war after war after war.
And you think, hold on, you think all of these wars, right, that have been started by one side, right?
It's a very one-sided initiative.
initiation of conflict, you think all of them are justified because all of its resistance just because of the mere fact that Israel was created.
unidentified
Again, I'll give you this metaphor.
I come into your home, I hog tie your family, I give you the basement, I take over the upper three floors of your house, okay?
And then you somehow free yourself and you try to come up and attack me and I say, oh, you're starting a war with me.
Okay?
Why would you do that?
That is exactly what has happened in 1948 with the creation of the State of Israel.
Remember, you said that, oh, we were so benevolent.
We gave them all this land.
No, you took the majority of the land that was allotted to the Jewish Zionist settlers was afforded by the UN.
We'll talk about them for another, for 30 more seconds.
There were two women who were released from Hamas captivity who said, I was raped repeatedly.
At least half the women in captivity out of the 200 and something hostages were raped repeatedly.
There is documented evidence from firsthand accounts.
unidentified
If you watch a documentary Screams Before Silence, I doubt you will because you'll just call it israeli propaganda well they go over they go over all of the evidence that i do not trust anything out of israel's phone of course you don't because then you'd have to be a belligerent liar no there's no this is called cognitive dissonance this is there's absolutely no legitimacy so they're lying i just want to there's no legitimacy until there is a actual independent you know what is really you know this could be verified israel doesn't let third third party in organizations come in and
actually do investigations the documentary wasn't hdf the idf said so so we got to go with the women said so the women said so on camera let's okay so the women are you calling them liars.
There's Palestinians that will have sex with a goat.
No offense.
I'm just saying, you know, they'll do.
So I'm not surprised they've raped a human.
my point is though even if there were some sexual assaults which is horrible still being murdered is worse than a sexual assault you know what i'm saying he's calling it resistance it's not resistance to rape again You know, then we're talking about occupied people.
We see the narrative constantly rape rape rape and because i'm sure there was a rape that probably happened does that mean little kids should not be able to get flour to make bread you know what i mean they again they're they we have like you just said earlier we have built a pier for aid we have aid being dropped in.
You know that October 7th wasn't a bright, beautiful day.
In fact, there were 2.3 million people enclosed in a concentration camp who were slowly starving to death, and they decided, you know what, we're going to do something about it because I don't want to die anymore.
Actually, Sarah Roy, a Harvard economist, has studied this extensively going back to the 90s.
And she, as well as a plethora of other economists have determined that the 90% of all the tunnels that go into Gaza and come out of Gaza were created post-2005, which means that after Israel imposed the harsh blockade.
Yes, predictably.
And after they committed these operations, these terrorist operations in the Gaza Strip where they demolished the entire strip, yes, they created more tunnels to circumvent the Israeli occupation.
No, I don't mean like bombs actually, because most of the shit, like I just said, that went into Rafah from Egypt was food, clothing, construction materials.
Well, I understand that, but it's like a lot of those bombs.
I mean, I don't know how big of a- No, it's the factual history that they're actually afraid of.
It's not really.
unidentified
Alex is right.
There's studies done on this.
There's documented evidence that shows that, you know, an overwhelming majority of the rockets that are fired into the green zone, the green line in Israel are glorified bottle rockets.
Okay.
And they're counted as if they are, oh, it's another, oh, we're under attack.
A resistance force that was in Detroit that was firing rockets at their neighbors, you know, like outer Detroit, whatever.
And we were saying, okay, these people are literally embedding themselves in downtown Detroit and they're constantly firing rockets out and they're hiding among civilians and we can't do anything about it.
Well, I mean, it's just, we're talking about like dispensationalism, right?
And I think it's fair to say that dispensationalism, which is a sort of modern view, a modern way to view the Bible, has completely guided our foreign policy over the last 70, 80 years.
And now you are seeing pushback.
from Christians, specifically Catholics and Reformed, Reformed Protestants against sort of this dispensational view of the Bible.
And I think that's why you're seeing sort of a shift of Christians not supporting Israel on theological grounds anymore?
You can support the people of Israel, which I believe are the ones that fall under the Abrahamic Covenant, which is the Jews, the people of the Jewish faith, right?
Not secular Jews, not this nation-state of Israel.
That's more where I come from from my arguments on it.
But, you know, you talk about dispensationalism and how, you know, the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church don't really align with the modern Zionism.
And I think that you would be right.
It's not as big of a percentage as I think a lot of people are inflating it to be.
But the Second Vatican Council declaration, a nosratate, affirms God's covenant with the Jewish people has never been revoked, and official Catholic teaching holds the old covenant retains its value and that the Jewish people remain most dear to God.
So modern Catholic documents reaffirm that the abrogationist supersessionism, the view that Christianity has replaced Judaism entirely lacks foundational Catholic doctrine.
Well, it's not a replacement, but I believe, I mean, I'm a Reformed Protestant, but the Catechism of the Catholic Church does hold the view that, like in the Pauline letters, like in Galatians, where the promises made to Abraham were fulfilled in Christ, that's the new covenant.
And the argument that I would make, which is the, I guess you could call it the dispensationalist argument, it's not really, but you know what I'm saying, is under the Abrahamic covenant, it's an everlasting covenant, right?
So, and if God, if God is omnipotent, doesn't make mistakes, then he can't create an everlasting covenant that would have an end date, right?
Right.
So, and it wouldn't transfer because if it would transfer, then they wouldn't have to create the new covenant.
And there's the argument that the people that are defined as Israel are now Christians, right?
And Jews are not.
And there's this, that would be replacement theology.
And I just think it's a lazy, a silly way to view the Bible because there's so many references in the Bible that that kind of uh that refute that there's uh all yeah I think you're right Kellen what yeah so like and you know what I don't know what you're all talking are you just looking up Gaza I thought you were looking out something someone in chat said there's a McDonald's operating in Gaza I don't think exactly I don't think that's well you know they just spent they just spent $50,000
on a rooftop they just spent everything's there they just spent $50,000 on a rooftop party in Gaza and that's uh that's on video there's a roof in Gaza?
It's that Tel Aviv is, without a doubt, one of the gayest cities in America is one of the gayest, you know, obviously very friendly to the gays and a lot of progressives, you know, are very pro-gay and then you see Hamas and culturally, you know, Islam is not necessarily Sharia law.
But you can see how that, you can just see how that argument does.
unidentified
kind of create uh uh sure you know but you know also i also i don't think that israel is sympathetic to gays necessarily because gay gay marriage is outlawed yeah you are right about that you know but it's just they are more friendly to gays so you see that argument from the left where it's yeah yeah hey if you're pro-lgbtq then why would you why would you Palestine I'm just saying that is a tough argument you know because you're like because I debate both sides we're having to be to me it's not a good argument because you're trying to run cover for the IDF bombing indiscriminately What do you say indiscriminately?
Well, it's like you're saying how they're not even a country.
unidentified
Well, then in that case, they're not even an en enemy and then and then really they shouldn't even be fighting well i mean you one one could make the argument that it is a civil war well you know the jews in auschwitz were a weaker enemy so i think maybe according to your argument we should have more of them yeah but i mean that's a you know we should just terror bomb if you could get it that perfect bomb auschwitz right the the jews were where where was the jews army what was exactly yeah no but i'm saying did they have a they had resistance movements yes what what was the resistance movement well
I mean, famously, you had the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943.
They're an armed resistance group, but I wouldn't classify them as the Wehrmacht or the Russian army or anything.
like this so they don't have the infrastructure they've been denied and that's the thing is that israel has denied them military infrastructure healthcare infrastructure education infrastructure denied what what do you mean denied by bombing them relentlessly and uh and and this is all before october 7th i'm talking about going back decades 2014 operation protective edge worst atrocity since october 7th uh since this current genocide which was a response to an attack and uh no It was not.
It was a pretext for a larger invasion.
And that same thing played out in Operation Castlewood in 2009.
I mean, it's what the Israelis acknowledge as mowing the lawn.
They have to periodically go in there and mow the lawn.
And what does mow the lawn mean?
It means massacre a bunch of people, destroy all their buildings, and then blockade them from having access to actually reconstruct.
But I mean, look, let's talk about that real quick right these online polls that you guys are living not you guys but you know people some people are living in the online world and they're not They're not in the real world.
Well, they just did the Red Heifer, and you saw Adam King talk about this.
Listen, now they're trying to build the third temple so i mean obviously they have they have some some big plans but but real quick now let's talk about because because we're talking about the propaganda war Zach I want to get your opinion on this and I know this isn't necessarily Israel Palestine but doesn't it frustrate you when you see this guy Tom Alexander is a cybersecurity executive for Benjamin Netanyahu gets caught in a pedophile sting and you know I'm not even really mad that they extradited him I kind of understand they want to protect him he's an important guy but what makes me mad is that you haven't seen any mainstream media
coverage of this.
Have you noticed that?
I know you and I see it a lot on Twitter, but you're not seeing it to a level that if this was a Russian cybersecurity, if this was a Palestinian cybersecurity directive.
If this was a cybersecurity directive for basically any other country, it would have been, you couldn't have not heard about it, but instead you have people like me, you know, that don't have that many followers and smaller accounts sharing this.
Don't you think it's kind of weird that stuff like that happens and it's not a bigger story?
I mean, but the argument that I'm seeing online, and I know that this is kind of separate from the media coverage, which I think they should cover it.
Absolutely.
They should definitely cover it.
And I don't know why they're not covering it.
And maybe somebody has, maybe you have an arch actual maybe israel has a lot of power in our media you have an argument for israel's like don't talk about that and i and i think that's wrong so we can agree there but um i think that some of the rhetoric online is that there's some grand conspiracy and i don't see that what i don't see is some like the the jews pulled some strings and and that's why no he was he was arrested arreigned indicted and
let go under the same conditions as everyone else in that stink.
They didn't take anyone's passport.
restrict anyone's travel and that's common for that area like that's common for yeah listen I'm familiar with bonds you got a $10,000 bond he is technically allowed to leave if the judge didn't give him a restriction which that was the case but I'm saying you'll hear me here's when you'll hear me going like full send on on agreement with all these other people if he does not come back for his trial and Israel does not extradite him then you'll hear me make an argument that that's absolutely fucking bullshit you can't do that we get him back
unidentified
here now or or when will have a problem with israel the da sigal chada you know yeah i know she said it was not her it was a judge it wasn't her she kicked it's a federal case and she kicked it down and then blamed them for their mishandling of it.
It seems pretty Yeah, but if she had there was something weird with that, but at the same time though, if because that was, I know it's a felony, but it's not actually that uncommon for them to make it a state case and not a federal case, you know, unless they had a ton of evidence.
Well, no, I was just actually the thing I was, I just thought the whole story about the Tom Alexandrovich and his extradition, wasn't he in Las Vegas for a cybersecurity conference?
That doesn't mean all Jews are bad or child predators.
That's what they're going to try to clip it because we talk about this.
But I just get frustrated because the media does have a lot of control of the narrative.
And when it comes to Israel, especially, they're not very critical.
And I think that that's done on purpose.
And that's why on social media the propaganda war israel is losing so bad because people are like like i want to talk about this and i don't have any outlets so i think that's why the woke right and that's why i want to kind of get to the woke right a lot of conservatives and rather when you go first what do you see about the infighting between conservatives that are pro-israel and anti-israel What do I see about the conservatives between people?
Well, the reason I bring that up is because Misfit is fighting with conservatives all the time you know he's really not now you're more of a progressive or leftist whatever you want to describe yourself yeah i'm just saying usually it's he's fighting against jake shields or some other guy that is a trump supporter i know that's that's anti-israel i find it really interesting i i again i don't side with them but i think that they're right in that particular way well isn't that how all politics are like you know really nobody's just far right like we're really more in the middle and there's obviously some like i'm more conservative
unidentified
but i do think we should have socialized health care caps or something to make health care more affordable so i think they're imperial neocons and they like imperialism and they like to do all these things but i think they see with Israel, and it's true, Israel is an albatross around our neck.
Well, it's funny that you bring up World War II because America actually didn't get into that conflict until after Pearl Harbor, and they tried whatever they could to not get involved in that conflict.
That is a very good point because I'm seeing a lot of isolationists and a lot of, you know, nationalists who are saying like are anti-interventionists who are saying like oh we should go back to that that mentality like last time america tried that this is the thing when when you are not a force that is sort of i i don't think that we should be totally interventionalists i think that there's a a happy medium between isolationism and interventionism where you just take the only the necessary steps to to stop evil
that's happening because if it's if it's going to affect us if you're america first you should be looking at who are our enemies who are our threats and how do we stop that threat and i think i would make an argument that hitler hitler was a threat to the jews but he was also a threat to america.
you look at America's biggest export basically being bombs or the military industrial complex America is only encouraged by more war and you know that so that's why we've been I don't like the way we do it right now.
I forgot to bring crayons to the street I'm trying to tell you that necessary yeah because it again israel under international law Well, according to you, you can cope and brood and seethe about it all you want, but that's the truth..
There is something to be said too is like, I do think, I disagree with the characterization that American foreign policy is strictly, I mean, not strictly, but largely driven by economic.
Because you can look at like our embargo of South Africa, for example.
It'd be extremely beneficial for the American elite to have.
the arrangement that they had in South Africa because of mineral extraction, direct access, and that sort of thing.
And then they place an embargo because of ideology, right?
It's wrong to, apartheid was morally wrong.
So obviously, as a motive, there's been moments in America.
unidentified
Sure, sure.
There's, you know, there's the, I think of it like there's the economic base, and then there's the superstructure of culture, social, political life and ideas.
And the economic base gives life to all society, politics, culture, and influences it greatly.
However, there are times when you can see that culture also influences the economic base.
I'm just, I think I'm just making a broad thesis here by saying that economic systems, generally speaking, drive foreign policy, drive military and political events.
So, you know, there is like, you look at like the global war on terrorism, for example.
Like, I don't think it's a fair characterization people reduce it just down to oil like there's obviously a lot more moving parts there is obviously sort of a bullshit the oil i mean we had some but that's trump said where's the oil and it's very salient where's the weapons we have more we have more uh petroleum oil and gas in here in pennsylvania than they have let's Let's take Henry Kissinger at his word when he said that to control people, you can control their food.
unidentified
And if you want to control countries, you got to control their oil.
And that's empires do empire shit.
Empires plan accordingly.
United States as an empire it has
and that was all in an effort to control the oil and we don't even need the oil we don't use the oil we just need to control the oil because if we have their hand on the spigot then we can control these countries and we can it's another lever of geopolitical strategic power well would you also agree that if if uh if there is a perceived threat then uh then a nation has a duty to, I guess you could say, engage in conflict to prevent that threat from happening.
So the argument that I would make against you is some of the, some, not all, some of the interventionism that we do is just like your argument that you think like, oh, well, Israel's occupying Hamas, so Hamas is resisting.
You can say America is just a resistance force that's fighting another evil force that's going to be a threat to our sovereignty.
unidentified
Where is America being threatened at its contiguous borders?
You have the Ayatollah, who's – I would say that it's pretty widely agreed upon that they don't view us very favorably.
And they are enriching uranium way past the point of civilian use.
unidentified
And they have these facilities that are, I would say, producing – Do you think Iran is a resistance group or is it a terrorist organization?
I would say Iran is a part of the subordinate aspect between the principal contradiction of imperial capitalism versus indigenous nationalism in the region of the Middle East.
There is no analog that you can say.
Do you have any Muslims?
The Iranians are posturing in the Western Hemisphere the way that the United States is posturing in the Middle East.
Well, Mumar Gaddafi, actually, his people loved him.
They had basically a very successful socialist country.
And then when he tried to put his money on the African dinar, you know, his petroleum, oil and gas money to take it off the petrodollar, they killed him.
So, and that regime change, actually, the quality of life has gotten much worse in Libya, and now they have slaves.
And there was a short time ago with Gaddafi, they didn't have slavery.
So, I mean, that regime change was worse for the people of Libya, probably better for us.
unidentified
I think there's one theme playing out across the world, and that is when indigenous people living in wherever, when they try to appropriate their land, their resources and labor for themselves, and it is antithetical to American capital accumulation, then they deserve to be either bombed, starved.
The whole array of tools that the United States has at their disposal will be met.
Well, actually, you bring up a good point because we talk about World War II a lot and you hear now this, you know, constantly talk about the Holocaust.
And then you have people like, even me, for being a little critical of Israel.
They might, you know, consider me a Nazi, even though I'm not.
But a friend of mine, Jake Shields, he has CTE, but they call him a Nazi.
I love Jake.
But this is where it gets really frustrating for me because if you actually look at World War II and you look at the thing called Operation Paperclip, that is where we actually took the top Nazi spies and some of the top Nazi soldiers.
And Warner von Braun was a rocket scientist that.
used rockets to decimate Poland was a real Nazi card carrying, worked for Hitler.
He came here and got to start the NASA program.
Nobody called him a Nazi.
They said, Oh well, you know, we rehabilitated him.
I think that people are, I think that there's a lot of jealousy and resentment over the success of the Jewish people, despite the fact that there have been several extermination events against them historically.
And I think that that's where a lot of this leads.
I'm saying because the Jews were systematically exterminated by Nazis, maybe they feel like it's okay to do it to somebody else because they were a victim of it.
It's kind of like, and I'm not trying to compare into pedophiles, but a lot of people that are pedophiles were actually sexually abused as a child.
So they feel like it's okay because they were victims of it.
So now Israel feels less bad because they were victims.
I think that argument would be great if they were doing it.
That's the problem.
Like I said, there have been more bombs dropped than civilians have been killed.
So they're either really shitty at genocide or they're not committing a genocide, right?
If you use that word, right, John Spencer's a really good person to go to if you really want to understand the actual technical legal definition of the word genocide.
And he makes the argument against why Israel is, or makes the argument for why Israel is not committing a genocide.
And if you actually read his writings, he's making very valid points.
They are not committing a genocide.
They are engaging in anti-terrorism.
They are in a war.
Nobody's saying that Ukrainians are trying to genocide Russians.
Nobody's saying that Russians are trying to genocide Ukrainians.
But to your point, you talk about how they dropped more bombs and people have been killed.
You know, that's also a money laundering scheme.
It's like when you go to the range and we shoot bullets that we're not actually using.
they're practicing blowing up bombs that they're going to keep using their stockpiles to get more weapons also a lot of those bombs just blow up buildings maybe they don't kill a lot of civilians but they blow up all their infrastructure.
You're making very valid arguments for Hamas' strategy while not acknowledging that they are also a terrorist organization.
They are literally embedding themselves in with civilians using them as human shields right they are literally saying i'm i'm going to dress like a civilian i'm going to hide my weapons in church they don't have going to hide my weapons in boss they don't have clothes they don't they can't make uniforms they can't they can't they don't have enough to make a matching uniform blockade on the gauze street walk out of here yeah i can't if you're telling me that hamas done on this, okay?
Well, it's gor guerrilla warfare let's say we don't uh that's a stupid argument well do you have the kill and i just texted you something i don't know if you can pull this up oh do you give me a second but this is actually a palestinian in the 1950s it might take a second but guys we have a few minutes left and we're gonna definitely give you guys each a you know closing argument i want to say thank you guys for watching this uh tim is still sick but he is on the min he is gonna be back so you don't have to look at me and tate's ugly faces well tate's handsome but uh guys this has been a spirited debate
i i've learned a little not a lot um but i've had a fun time and uh before we wrap things up i kind of just want to play this clip clip to kind of get your opinion of this.
So this is a TikTok of we don't have to watch the whole thing, but I thought this is very interesting.
unidentified
So he's great.
Why won't your organization engage in peace talks with the Israelis?
You don't mean exactly peace talks, you mean capitulation, surrendering.
Why not just talk?
Talk to whom?
Talk to the Israeli leaders.
That's kind of conversation between the sword and the neck, you mean.
Well, if there were no swords and no guns in the room, you could still talk.
talk no i haven't been i had never seen any talk between a colonialist case and a national liberation movement but despite this why not talk talk talk about what talk about the possibility of not fighting not fighting for what not fighting at all no matter what for Yeah,
and people usually fight for something and they stop fighting for something.
So you can't tell me even why should we speak about what?
Well, stop fighting.
Or why talk to stop fighting to stop the death and the misery the destruction the pain the misery and the destruction and the pain and the death of whom of Palestinians of Israelis of Arabs of the Palestinian people who are uprooted thrown in the camps living in starvation killed for 20 years and forbidden to use even the name Palestinians.
They're better that way than dead though.
Maybe to you, but to us it's not.
To us to liberate our country, to have dignity, to have respect, to have our mere human rights is something as essential as life itself.
Yeah, no, you know what it is you don't look like you don't look like muhammad to me but i'm saying that guy is the same patriot that you are for america he's willing to die for his country because he sees somebody come out that's a false equivalence you're a patriot and yet you are defending a state that has attacked america in 1967 israel every day israel attacked that was an accident you're talking about the friendly fuck was i was wondering i was wondering when we were going to get to the youth the friendly fuck was an accident which has been which has been tried which is where they nailed on both countries have sort of just been like
yep we acknowledge what happened israel apologized we paid the money it's all sort of it's all sort of okay look it's just like the um it's just like the argument against um you know like ukraine dropping attackums on a beach in Russia.
Okay.
Now, did Ukraine intentionally try to kill civilians on a beach?
We don't call it the worst atrocity that's ever happened in this war.
And the reason you don't do that is because Russia is the one who invaded Ukraine, right?
And they are fighting however they feel necessary and the mistakes are going to be made.
So if you're arguing that there's never a mistake in a war and that wasn't a mistake on the USS Liberty, it was.
They agreed to it.
They acknowledged it.
They apologized for it.
I don't understand what the fucking happened.
unidentified
They said they were sorry, guys.
Yeah, we did.
This guy is extremely based and he's saying there is no point in talking at this point because I want to remind you all that the Balfour Declaration was made in 1917 and when it got...
when Palestinians got...
as indigenous people in living on that land.
They formed seven separate Arab Congresses in the interwar period between 1917 to 1939.
And every time the British Empire would not lend their ear, they wouldn't even make it, they wouldn't even allow them counsel.
In fact, they said that In order for us to listen to you, Palestinians, you must accept that we are coming in and taking your land.
And the very thing that they were vying for, which is just their human rights, they had to deny.
just to get the ear of the king, so to speak.
So it's true.
You know, Kanafani, I think is how you say his name.
They're at that point, you know, this has been going on for decades and decades.
They're done talking.
They realize that Israel does not want to talk.
It's a settler colony that's hell bent on incremental expansionism.
They're not talking about, I mean, yeah, there's a few there's a few Jews that are talking about Greater Israel, but nobody is like Benjamin Netanyahu, like the most powerful Jews.
unidentified
Yeah, I mean, but I'm saying, like, it's a little smooth road.
But you were speaking earlier about the—sorry to go through the theology again, but like the Old Covenant in Genesis where he promises the land from the great river of Egypt to the Euphrates.
So there is an expansion that's built into the— And every argument that's been made by Andrew can be turned back on him by saying that if you actually go the theological argument, then they are the original inhabitants.
They are the indigenous people, and they are being occupied.
Therefore, everything they are doing is resistance against the Palestinians.
And you can literally tie their lineage all the way back way before 1948, way before 1948, way before 1967, way before 1920, way before 1900s, way before any of this conflict even started in the modern nation state.
Palestine shouldn't exist because you just said that any state that commits crimes against humanity should not exist and October 7th was a crime against humanity.
My opponent here wasn't even able to acknowledge the fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Anyone that can't do that shouldn't be taken seriously, right?
They're designated a terrorist organization.
But again, if you just go back to one day where a group of people filmed themselves committing the worst atrocities we have seen since the fucking Holocaust, then you lose this debate on its face just from that one point.
But you've also lost the debate on many other points, right?
You said that if genocide is bad, or you say genocide is bad, then you ignore the fact that the people that are living in the region that you think should be a full state have fired thousands and thousands of rockets into another state trying to kill people based off of their ethnicity based off of their religion based off of the fact that they are israeli that is attempted genocide and just because they're bad at it doesn't mean that they are not doing it okay if you are there is a there is
a law there is a charge against people called attempted murder and murder okay so they are attempting a genocide over and over and over again and um and again if you say if you say people that do that shouldn't exist then by your own logic They shouldn't exist.
And finally, you say that you want a place called Palestine that has equal rights.
There is a place called Palestine right now.
And in that place, they don't have equal rights.
They will throw you off of a fucking rooftop if one is left and that's if you're gay if you're a woman that has a fifth grade reading level or higher if you are a Christian if you are a Jew if you are anything other than a Sharia practicing Muslim so you know every argument that you've made in this entire debate can be labeled can be leveled right against the people that you're defending so yeah on that note I guess thanks for coming but here's your L Wow.
Maybe we should next time or something but before we go uh shout everybody shout out your socials wrathbone you go first sure uh my youtube page is at wrathbone with an extra e and uh yeah follow me there okay yeah at real tape brown everywhere no the theology debate got shortened pretty quickly but if you want to go at it you can go like pretty autistic on twitter so follow me there And then everybody just go follow Kellen, the money man over there.
