Epstein Scandal WON'T GO AWAY, Does Epstein MATTER To MAGA? w/ Colonel Kurtz & Shane Cashman
BUY CAST BREW COFFEE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW - https://castbrew.com/ Become A Member And Protect Our Work at http://www.timcast.com Host: Phil @PhilThatRemains (X) Guest: Colonel Kurtz @colonelkurtz99 (X) Shane Cashman @ShaneCashman (everywhere) Producers: Lisa Elizabeth @LisaElizabeth (X) Kellen Leeson @KellenPDL (X) My Second Channel - https://www.youtube.com/timcastnews Podcast Channel - https://www.youtube.com/TimcastIRL
Topic of conversation on the left and the right for the better part of, well, I mean, honestly, for the better part of four or five years now.
And today we're here to answer the question: does Epstein matter to MAGA?
Is this really an important topic, or is this just something that's juicy that people love to glob onto because of all the salacious parts of it and because of all the implications with foreign influence and stuff?
So we're going to get into that today.
And to talk about that, we have Colonel Kurtz.
What's up?
Hi, everybody.
Tell everybody who you are.
So I have a podcast, a YouTube channel.
I go, my handle is Colonel Kurtz99.
I'm on Instagram and Facebook and Twitter and YouTube.
And I talk about pop culture, politics, whole range of things.
Awesome.
Well, thank you.
We also have Shane Cashman from IWL.
That's right.
I'm happy to be here.
Last night, we filmed one of our best episodes, I think, yet.
We had 6-7 Kevin on, who's got a documentary coming out on Tim's Rumble channel, I think on Monday, about death cults.
I think it was in Panama and Mexico.
Insane stories.
The things he saw are wild.
I think it's very important.
So I'm looking forward to that.
We also talked about how Area 51's on fire.
Actually on fire?
All around it.
Yeah.
Oh, yes.
The gothic fire.
Yeah, the big, it's at the north rim of the canyon, right?
So all those like Lockheed Martin paints from their stealth fighters are now burning into the atmosphere, just burning out the evidence.
He'll be here soon.
And hey, Kellen.
Kellen's here.
What's up, everybody?
Yeah, I'm usually behind the scenes.
My name is Kellen.
I'm letting Tate drive in the producer chair.
But yes, on this channel that you're watching on Rumble, the Timpool channel, that's where the documentary is going to release Monday at 6 p.m.
Shout out to 67 Kevin.
He did great work.
If you watch it live for the premiere, it's free.
After that, you got to be signed up for Rumble Premium.
Also, quick announcement.
Those that may be aware of the situation with the DC Comedy Loft and our events for the Culture War Live, DC Comedy Loft did cancel all three events.
We're working very hard behind the scenes to remedy the situation.
You can look at Tim's tweets for updates.
He posted a video this morning about the situation, but please stay tuned.
We'll update you guys as soon as possible.
All right.
So why don't we just jump right into it?
I know that there are different opinions on how important Epstein is.
I personally think that what you'd call the normie voter, this doesn't really register with them.
I think that there are very committed, small, vocal groups that believe different things about what Epstein was doing and what it means for not only U.S. politics, but global politics.
I know there are people that believe that there were crimes that were committed that were not exposed when Jeffrey Epstein was arrested and Ghislaine Maxwell was tried and stuff.
But I'm interested to hear what you guys think about what it means for MAGA and also what it means for the future of not just the Republican Party, but also for the U.S. as a whole.
So why don't you start off, Kernel Burtz?
So I think there's probably going to be a kind of a delayed effect with this.
I think a lot of voters and people in MAGA are sort of hanging back and waiting to see if there's any there there here after all, or if this is just another, you know, fake news story as Trump has been trying to sell it.
But I think that Trump seems to me, I know a lot of people say, oh, well, he's always a little unhinged or he's always kind of off message or what have you, but he seems like he has really been flailing to me on this in a way that I've not seen since COVID.
And to me, there's just a qualitative difference.
That Truth Social post from several days ago when he was calling those of us who are interested in this subject weaklings, I thought it was just astounding.
And again, even for him, off message, unhinged, and he gives the impression that he's hiding something.
I'm not saying that he is, but he gives the impression that he is, or at the very least, that he's very uncomfortable with this line of thought for some reason.
So what I think is that right now there are a lot of people, a lot of Trump supporters, MAGA people who are holding back and are sort of reserving judgment.
But I do think that over time, there's going to be a cost to this if it is not resolved in some way, if people don't get answers, if there are not files released.
And by the way, the release, if anything is released by Pan Bondi, it can't just be some little trickle at something.
I know Trump said, okay, we're going to release grand jury.
He wants the grand jury testimony released.
Okay, which grand jury testimony?
What is the extent of that?
You know, he said, well, and he kind of qualified it, right?
He said, he wants it released if it's what credible or okay.
Well, that sounds like lawyers speak to me in a way.
So I know that there have been polls showing that Trump's support has not eroded, that in fact his support has gone up.
But I think that there's probably a delayed effect with this.
I think that this could be a kind of an Achilles heel situation for him, but we will see.
I agree.
I agree.
I think this is the first time we've seen him lose his confidence and instinct.
And I think he's surrounded by people who are handling him.
So that, I want to push back on that.
I'm going to end up playing Devil's Ad.
Yeah, perfect.
But I think that Trump's response is frustration.
Or what would you say to people that say Trump's response is frustration because outside of the Epstein debacle, which they handled, I agree they handled poorly and it makes sense that people are questioning it.
But outside of that, Donald Trump has had success after success after success after success.
And currently all people want to talk about is the Epstein stuff.
And it's gotten to the point where it's not just people that are in the weeds politically, it's people that would consider, you'd consider normies.
And as an example, so there's this show called Two-Way, which is Mark Halperin and Sean Spicer's on it.
Dan Tureen is on it.
They're very normy politicos.
You see it on the New York Times, their podcast daily.
They have to talk about it.
And these are outlets that generally would avoid this topic, but because there's so much heat around it, they're forced to talk about it.
And again, Trump has had so many things that have gone so well for him since the election.
What would you say to people that say, well, look, if you were the president and had done all these things and you had all this great stuff with immigration, having so much success and you just got the Doge cuts actually codified and you got the big bill and you got all this, what would you say to people that say he's just frustrated with the fact that people are focusing on this Epstein thing as opposed to all of his success?
He might be just frustrated.
It may be that there's no there in terms of his, he's not hiding some dark history or anything with this, but he needs to wake the F up.
I know it's a family show.
He needs to wake the F up because human nature is such that people like tabloid stuff.
They like red meat.
There's something about this Epstein thing that is captivating to people.
And so, you know, it's kind of, to me, it kind of, it's kind of like people bemoaning tabloid culture.
Oh, why do people care so much about Blake Lively and this kind of thing when there's so many more important, serious issues?
Well, welcome to the modern day.
I think it's way beyond all that, though.
And all the things people care about, which we should care about, immigration, economy, all those things.
The Epstein story and stories like Epstein is the nucleus of all those problems.
Like these are people who are in our government, in our country, who are beholden to people like this.
And this is not like a unique thing to Epstein.
And real quick, Trump ran on literally obliterating the deep state.
Agenda 47 was to destroy the deep state.
The deep state is an invisible network of DOJ, CIA, FBI, Mossad, Five Eyes, you name it.
It's all the people.
It's not just one boogeyman.
It's all over the world.
And Epstein is a symbol of that deep state.
We watched as a world them shoot at Trump's head.
Like we're watching JFK level conspiracies play out in real time.
The Epstein thing, like I said, is a nucleus of all of these issues because we are now, as taxpayers, funding our own destruction over the years.
Like, why are our politicians making certain decisions that are completely against our best interests?
So your take is that when people are talking about the deep state, they're talking about things like espionage and intelligence agencies as opposed to the deep state being the entrenched bureaucracy.
Because in my, the reason I ask is it's my opinion that the deep state is less about intelligence assets and more about people that work in government and they want to make sure that they can continue making their car payments.
They're unelected.
They have jobs, you know, GS15s or whatever.
They want to continue making their payments on their mortgage.
They want to continue making their payments on their cars.
They want to make sure that their kids can still go to school.
And so that entrenched bureaucracy is interested in keeping the status quo, not because there's some massive conspiracy based in international espionage, but it's people that are like, no, I just want to make sure that my pension is taken care of and I'm going to keep doing, I want to make sure that we can keep doing what we're doing.
So that way I keep my lifestyle.
But those people want a status quo and the status quo is actually a weaponized government against the American people for decades, at least a century.
And they haven't been working in our best interests.
Those people who are unelected bureaucrats want to maintain power and the quote unquote status quo for people who believe in like a normal world.
But the world's not normal.
It's been weaponized against us for ages.
And Epstein is just one facet of that.
And even people who may not have a conspiratorial worldview or who may not be as interested in the things that you're talking about right now, most people still have a fear or a suspicion that there are shadowy things going on in our government and even non-conspiratorial people.
And this Epstein thing, look, most people draw a hard line at abuse of children.
And of course, I know that there's in some of these discussions, there's some gray area about, okay, are we really talking about children?
Are we talking about young women?
And there have been claims that for the most part, Epstein actually was into just barely of age women.
Either way of sex.
People don't make those distinctions.
People have put Epstein firmly in the category of a sicko.
Like little girls with braces.
Exactly.
And I saw that private investigator talked about that, that as soon as he investigated Epstein and as soon as the girls were out of braces and he wasn't really interested in them.
I don't know the truth totally who does about Epstein.
But the problem is that there's so many people on Trump's side, in his administration, even Donald Trump Jr., as you know, who up until just recently, J.D. Vance, up until just recently, were touting this as a significant issue that needed to be exposed.
And now all of a sudden, there's nothing to see here, guys.
He's deeply entrenched in our government.
I mean, he was hired.
The martyr made just that guy, Cooper did the Tucker thing, and he went over this.
And it's factual.
You know, Whitney Webb has also talked about Ryan Dawson.
All those people have talked about this.
It's true.
Epstein was a young Cooper union dropout who was hired at like 21, working at the Dalton School hired by Donald Barr, whose son would eventually oversee him being imprisoned under Trump.
You know, it's bizarre stuff.
You can get way more conspiratorial in terms of the books he wrote about sex trafficking aliens a year before who wrote those books?
Donald Barr.
Space Relations.
For people that are watching, Donald Barr is Bill Barr's father, Bill Barr, former attorney general.
Yes.
Yeah.
So there's like weird connections there.
And then is that a connection, though?
Hold on a second.
Yes.
Is that a connection?
His father?
Yes.
Bill Barr's father wrote a book that was weird.
And then Bill Barr person.
No, you're missing a step.
Donald Barr wrote a book published in 73 called Space Relations about ants, ant aliens that had themes of trafficking.
A year later, Donald Barr hired Jeffrey Epstein to work as a math teacher at the Dalton School.
And Donald Barr was in the OSS with CIA connections.
So this is all this stuff you're talking about.
This is all circumstantial.
It's all real.
No, no, no, I'm not saying it's not real, but it's circumstances.
Circumstantial, yeah.
But I think you can't deny these strange connections.
Like, you know, I don't believe in coincidences.
And the fact that this guy is involved in those people, with those people's lives, CIA intelligence, like I said, all of them across the world, that is an indictment on who this guy is, the people he was running with.
I mean, it's crazy that he was born on inauguration day, the day Eisenhower was inaugurated, and he's entrenched himself.
That is just a coincidence that has been.
No, it's not.
No, because I think he was, I don't have to get into it now, but he was a complete cutout created by people to take over our country, not him alone.
The fact that he was born on a certain day.
Yes, January 20th is the day all of our presidents are inaugurated.
And now we have people writing, like Whitney Webb writing books about One Nation Under Blackmail.
It's weird.
I think he's a complete cutout used to destroy the country.
And these people run in symbolism.
Like, I think that stuff is, it matters.
I think it does.
Clearly, I'm going to be the skeptic today.
That's perfect.
Let's say that your average person does not understand or is not aware of the layers of the possible layers of the country.
That's maneuvers.
But let's say that they're not.
They still have, there is still a kind of an accumulative effect of all of the negative, mysterious, horrible things that people have heard about Epstein.
And by the way, things that have been confirmed.
I mean, this man, I mean, even Dan Bongino, before he became FBI director, as you know, deputy FBI director, he was talking about how he knew people in the deep state who've said, yeah, he's an intelligence asset.
This is something that even Acosta cited as a reason why he couldn't adequately prosecute him in Florida.
So it's not, what I'm saying is this is not just some far out like Diddy thing.
You know, I don't believe there was a conspiracy with Diddy.
I think that was just a per, I know y'all disagree, some of you, but I think that was just a kinky guy who had something going on with some escorts and with his girlfriends, right?
This is different.
This is not just conspiracy theories.
This is something that has been extensively litigated through the court system.
Yeah.
And like that stuff with the, what I'm saying with Donald Barr, it's weird and it's the minutiae, but then that guy evolves into someone who is in the upper echelons of societies around the world.
You know, his dealings with Lex Wesner, like why he became power attorney of that guy, this guy who was Victoria's Secret, Bed Bath, and Beyond.
You know, why is this guy running with arms dealers?
Why is he friends with all of these people from Bill Gates to Bill Clinton?
You know, and then the things that make it even weirder are that Ghelaine Maxwell's connections, you know, her father was Robert Maxwell.
I was saying this on IRL on Monday.
Robert Maxwell is a strange dude.
He had clear connections to the Mossad.
It wasn't maybe not Mossad, but they were a part of a big scandal, the promise scandal with stolen spyware that was used against Americans in other countries.
And he died mysteriously.
And Robert Maxwell was like a Murdoch competitor, right?
He owned Pergamon Press.
Big dude with a lot of connections.
And it's just, I don't think we can overlook how these powerful people get entrenched in our societies and have a major effect on everything.
So like what I was saying earlier, economics, you know, the wall, immigration, all this stuff, I think, is a part of the larger, the tentacled monster that these people want to maintain, control for their own good.
And honestly, I think is to destroy us.
I think they feed off human suffering.
Like legit, these people are demonic.
Who is trying to destroy?
Like, so deep state in your mind, what is that?
Well, I think they're a satanic cabal, you know?
Just like a bunch of literal demons from hell who want to feed off human suffering.
I don't know about a corporation.
Let's be honest.
I mean, you feed up demons from hell.
You're going to make me go spin out of control.
We do have like hard factual stuff to talk about, but I legitimately personally believe that this is an ancient strain of evil that has been on earth since the fall of man, and they are here to feed off human suffering.
And they do that by hurting all of us while also destroying children and innocence.
The reason I ask is if Epstein doesn't matter, the normies, right?
the average person's like dude the guy's dead I thought this is settled right how do you get through to them talking about this kind of stuff I, first of all, I think people do care more than we understand.
He's the butt of every joke all over the place for years.
I talk to people.
Polls are fake.
What's going on?
Polls are fake, Phil.
There's a lot.
Why are we going to talk to CNN about polls?
You can't just say, well, the actual evidence that you're presenting is just fake, but you should totally believe that it matters that he was born on the 20th of January.
Like, come on.
Well, because the polls, but the polls, I think, are always lying to us about this stuff.
This is stuff that's on record, legit throughout history.
And like I said, I do believe in the symbols of all these things.
I think these people are created by monsters to overtake us.
Symbolism, not symbology, correct?
I guess.
Yeah.
I mean, just making it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But like the thing about Normie's not believing in it, I think, is an indictment on journalism's unwillingness to take this case seriously, like looking beyond just the crimes, because I think it goes deeper than, you know, children being hurt is horrendous.
But this is a thing, this is a pattern in our country and the world for, I mean, forever.
You know, we have major people, you could look at the Franklin scandal, you could look at Michael Aquino, all these people.
I agree with you that this is, and this is something that I said on IRL the other day.
This kind of abuse from powerful people, abuse of other people that are less powerful.
I mean, the reason that we have the word sadism is because of Desad was his name, right?
Yeah.
So he was a French guy and he literally just enjoyed hurting people.
And people in power, if they are malevolent and if they actually have evil intentions, which I don't dispute, there are people that are like that.
I don't think that this is unique to our time or that it's something that is unique to a certain group of people.
I do think that there are powerful people that are actually good people, that are actually trying to do you good.
But clearly, there are absolutely powerful people that are, I mean, for lack of a better term, evil, that actually want to hurt people.
I just don't know that the existence of those people means that we have the ability to just point to people and say, well, because you're in the elite, You are these people.
And I think that's what people are.
There's a lot of people that get wrapped up in that, in the whole, well, they're the elite.
That means they're definitely bad.
And I think there are several levels of this too.
Even if we are putting aside quote-unquote conspiracy theories about world paradigms, just look at the way that this has been mishandled PR-wise by Trump.
I mean, there have been so many.
There's no pushback for me who I'm not.
And I think that, I think, I hate to say it, but almost to a degree, I think in some ways the truth at this point is not even the main issue.
What's the issue is that there have been so many dramatic shifts and reversals by Trump, by his people.
You have that deer in the headlights interview with Bongino.
That was uncomfortable.
They look like Johnny Depp and Amber Heard in that Australia apology video and stuff.
And people can sense that there's something up here.
To that point, right?
And again, I'm playing devil's advocate here just because there's got to be someone that's grounded.
Not to sound like a jerk, but like if we're all just sitting here saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes to each other.
Well, I think it's important and the questions are worth it.
We have to talk about it.
So what would you say to people that say, well, look, they looked like that because they had some sense of how it was going to be received.
They remember all the things they said and they're like thinking in the back of their mind, they're like, I can't believe I got to get on here and I got to say this.
People are going to think I'm lying because I was so blah, blah, blah.
But, you know, there's just, I saw it and this is actually true.
And I have to, it sucks that I have to do it.
I'm going to do a better job, though.
Well, how?
So how?
And seriously, like, legitimately, if they're like, well, I got to get out there and say it.
What is it?
What is going to convince someone that already believes?
And that's the big problem here.
There's tons of confirmation bias.
Right.
People that are like, well, I already believe this.
And people that would have six months ago said, Dan and Cash, they're going to get in there.
And I know those guys.
I trust them.
They're going to blow it open.
I trust those guys.
I can't wait.
And then as soon as Dan and Cash come out and say things that conflict with what they already believe, oh, they must have got to him.
The deep state got to him.
But you're acting like Dan and Cash and the Trump administration have done some kind of stellar PR operation and people just aren't able to accept it because I specifically said already that I'm not.
So then my answer to you would be, what can they do?
They can do a better freaking job of presenting this.
I would come out and I would say, look, guys, I know that we pumped this up, but here's what's happened.
We got into these files and we found that we didn't have this.
We got into this.
We found that.
I mean, they need to explain.
They can explain more than just sitting there.
A lot of people are pissed at because it's been whiplash.
It's been so back and forth on the messaging.
However, should we really be shocked that that's their strategy here?
They've done it on every other issue with tariffs.
One day they're on, next day they're off.
The administration has done this the entire time of just flip-flopping.
This seems more dramatic to me.
I don't think so.
The message is a more serious issue by far, but I think they're doing what they've always done.
I have to do messaging.
Go ahead.
I have to say, you know how I feel about this case.
And I do think about confirmation bias all the time.
And I don't believe what we'll see from the government.
I mean, it's gone through so many hands in different administrations.
Why should we believe what they have?
But I want to see it all.
We should have every right to see.
I don't want to see the videos, you know, of children being hurt.
That can't be let out.
That's disgusting.
But like, there's people calling for that too.
And I think that's bizarre.
But I just think the messaging is so bad.
It's schizophrenic because it's like one night they'll say nothing.
There's a here.
The next night they'll say, we're going to release it.
Bongino says we have raw footage.
It's uncut.
Next thing we get a video, it's missing a minute.
A week later, it's missing three minutes.
By the way, it's not just, sorry, just one thing.
By the way, it's not just a matter of neglect.
It's also a bizarre kind of obstinance that they're showing, a kind of frustration with people.
Can't we just move on?
You still talking about that Epstein guy?
What's with my guys and gals?
This condescension.
And it comes.
You're the guys who did the photo shoot with the binders.
There's no, so there's, I have no disagreement about anything, any of the points you're making about how poorly this has been presented.
The idea, you mentioned the binders, that was probably the worst thing that they could have done.
They killed an indie media that day.
They called it, yeah, I mean, the worst thing is they threw people that had supported Trump.
They threw him right under the bus.
They made him look like.
Was that intentional, you think?
It was incompetent.
I don't think the influencers knew what they were getting into, but I do think someone in the administration knew what they were doing by printing out binders and walking them out in front of photographers, even though they'll be like the photographers are there for some ambassador.
They knew damn well they were walking out for a photo shoot.
I know the influencers didn't really know what was going on, but they were now having this conversation today and looking back at everything that's happened, do you think that it was a setup?
I think they knew this was the way things were going to go.
They wanted to shut these influencers down.
Yeah, I think it's very common sense.
I think the people who are handling this situation, who are close to Trump, don't think very highly of us.
And they think they can just throw us some scraps and we'll get over it.
But this is one of the most nefarious crimes against children.
And he is a part of the upper, most upper parts of our society.
And he's not the only one like that.
So we can't just reduce it to some people dancing with binders on the White House lawn and then move on.
And then like, what was phase two?
What was phase three?
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, it's crazy.
It's a great bit.
But it would be if it wasn't about kids being like hurt so badly and so many for such a long time.
And also the fact that Trump does have an established, and I understand that he says that he ended it and he kicked him out of Mar-Lago and whatever, but he has an established history with Epstein.
I know we don't know how extensive that was, but when the New York magazine decided to do an expose on Jeffrey Epstein, who was one of the main people they talked to as a character reference, so to speak, as Trump, that says something.
I feel like that gets, do you remember?
Oh, it was like, what, early 2000s?
Yeah.
And that's what Phil was talking about earlier, though, is I do take into account this guilt by association thing because when you're someone like Epstein, his goal was to infiltrate every institution from Harvard, art, Hollywood, science.
So like Trump was that guy.
So you're bound to be, you know, around him for photo ops and at parties and all that stuff.
But I don't Think, I personally don't think Trump's implicated.
I don't think he's guilty.
I think his frustration probably stems from the fact that what he's been told about this case doesn't jive with his base, and now they're really mad.
And he's like, Well, I saw stuff that refutes that, but the messaging from him, from everybody, is poor.
Right, exactly.
So it's tough.
It's not just poor.
I mean, it's in the bismerror.
It's in the abysmal.
And the level of condescension here, nobody likes condescension.
This is something that MAGA voters also are not accustomed to.
Trump has never been condescending, as far as I know, to his own constituency.
And it's beyond condescending.
I mean, he called us weaklings.
I think he believes what he's saying.
And I think that's why he's so mad.
But I think he's lost his balance.
Right.
And, you know, who knows what he's seen?
You know, we could look at why Bongino and Cash looked like it was a hostage situation on that Fox interview.
And maybe they're spooked because they saw something far more nefarious.
Not to go too crazy again, because you know how easy that gets, Phil.
But like, I think Epstein's alive.
I think they found out that he's in witness protection or something, that they've used him as the asset he was, got him out, and he's somewhere living his life.
I want to drill down on that point just because I want to make sure I understand what you actually do think.
Why don't you do me a favor and articulate what you actually do think in terms of his death?
Well, not just that.
What do you think Epstein was actually involved with?
Because we talked a little, I don't know if we haven't said it today, but I'm of the mind that there are at least two major opinions that the passionate people have.
And I want to know which one you kind of fall into or if you're a mixture of both.
Probably all of them.
Gatekeeping power in this country and in other countries.
Gatekeeping inventions in science and art.
Controlling politicians, sexual blackmail, and feeding off human suffering for his own delight.
Okay.
And so what do you think has happened since we were told that Epstein killed himself?
In terms of our society in particular.
I don't think he died.
Look, that whole story is very strange, and this is just my speculation.
But I've mentioned this on the show before, but it's worth, I'll just say it again because it kind of ties in.
I had been following the Nicholas Tartaglion case for 10 years.
He's a guy who was convicted of executing four guys in a drug deal that went bad.
He's an ex-cop.
Happened in Chester, New York, where I used to be a furniture mover.
And these four men went disappearing.
Tartaglion, who's this ex-cop, was found guilty of killing them, putting them, burying them in his grave on like a pig farm, and he went to jail.
And so I was writing about this for a while, following him, following his depravities throughout his life and his career as a cop.
And he winds up being the guy who's in Epstein's cell.
And he's the reason the official story was at the time that he attacked Epstein.
And that's how Epstein was moved, right?
But that's, he says that's not the case.
Tartaglion says Epstein actually tried taking his life, wrote a note, like a suicide note.
Epstein tried to kill himself.
This is what Tartaglion says.
And then that Tartaglion says he cut him down because he had a razor blade in his jail cell.
I also want to mention Tartaglion on the night before this all happened, got a cell phone in his cell.
Remember, this is a very corrupt prison in New York City.
Lots of problems there.
Whatever happened, Tartaglion has his own story.
There's the official story.
Whatever happened, that's what moved Epstein to where he would not live anymore, according to the official story.
I think since he's such a powerful asset connected to such powerful entities in our country and all around the world, considering his lineage of Robert Maxwell, who did very similar things and, you know, hook his daughter up with Jeffrey Epstein, you know, was in a yacht called Lady Ghelane.
Anyway, I think they switched him out.
I think they got a body double or something and they brought Epstein out alive and let him live for they either they acquired that information and said move on.
And we have a history of doing things like that in this country, of seeing horrendous nightmarish stuff go on and our government, the status quo, the evil status quo government being like, we want that information.
We're going to use it.
And a good example of that would be like a Unit 731 in Japan after World War II, when we gave everyone over their amnesty for the information on vivisection, on living people, freezing hands and shattering them.
Like, that's just one of like many examples of how we like to acquire what we think of as torture, evil information, and use it.
So I think Epstein is probably still alive.
I think that whole thing was weird.
There's discrepancies in the autopsy.
Michael Baden, Dr. Michael Bodden, he doesn't believe it was a suicide.
He reviewed the autopsy.
I think, I don't know if he's actually with the body or if he reviewed the autopsy, but Boden's just interesting because he did JFK's brain autopsy and all that stuff.
He did Shannon Gilbert, who was a victim of the Long Island serial killer.
So he talks a lot about the hyoid bone and Epstein's broken three places, which isn't really consistent with a suicide.
It's more consistent with a strangulation and a homicide.
There's so many discrepancies with the story.
I don't buy the cameras going out.
We were told for years there were no cameras.
Now we have this 11-hour footage that's edited.
The security guards went to sleep.
I was just going to say, too, another way in which the Trump administration has just utterly botched this is to put out, finally, after an extensive delay, to put out this footage and tell us, look here, guys, we've got it, we've got it.
And then, oh, it turns out there's a minute missing.
Oh, well, we can explain that.
This is what normally happens every time that it reboots everything.
And then it turns out Wired magazine looks at the metadata, which why is it not, it's just a no-brainer now that people are going to look at metadata.
Like from the Baldoni thing to this, that should have been expected.
Well, you look at the metadata and it turns out, no, there's like three minutes missing from that video.
So what you've done, what they did is they were thinking that that was going to help them, I suppose, and relieve people's suspicions by putting that video out there.
And instead, it just tremendously reinforces the narrative that we're being lied to.
I refuse to believe that this is incompetence.
Like it seems intentional.
I just want to say one other thing.
If it is incompetence, you need to replace it.
I hope that disagree.
I think that there is ample possibility for this to be incompetent.
And you need to remove those people.
Like whether it's Bondi.
How many things have to happen and go wrong to allow this to happen for it to be incompetent?
When it comes to incompetence, I don't think that there is an upper limit.
Well, I agree with that.
I would agree With you on that, it can be infinitely stupid.
So, let's look at Butler really quick, and I just want to make another point after this about Epstein and the death.
Butler, Pennsylvania is a good example of what I think was mass incompetence, but evil actors using that as a shield to carry out whatever they're.
I'm investigating the people in Butler or the Secret Service in Butler now because of actual possible nefarious.
So, it's like, what, a dozen suspended agents?
Yeah, there's a lot now.
That whole thing is weird.
That's a whole thing.
But anyway, incompetence does happen.
I think sinister actors use it as cover for their plots.
I mean, Thomas Matthew Crooks thing is so weird that they cremated his body so quickly, power washed the roof so quickly.
And talking about why people are skeptical of Trump and of this situation right now, that is hovering in the background as well.
The fact that most people feel, as we do, that that was never resolved, that no attempt was even made to account for that guy's motives, Thomas, his history, all of that.
And so we've got that in the background.
And there's just this sense, you know, I think that we understand this sense that there is something pervasively wrong in our government right now.
And this is why Agenda 47 was so important for Trump to campaign on literally obliterating the deep state.
Whatever you think that is, I know it's an amorphous term, and it's hard to sell to like the normies who don't want to buy into it.
But this is what you're trying to sell.
Because like I said, if you articulate to people the deep state the way that I kind of conceptualize it.
Forever bureaucrats.
Yeah, most people don't really find objection with that.
Because they're like, well, yeah, I mean, if I had a job, I'd want to keep my job and I'd want my kids to go to school and I want to keep making my mortgage payments.
So that makes perfect sense that there's people that work in the administration or work in the government that want to keep their jobs.
But if you're like, hey, they're all blood-sucking vampires and they're the ones that are in control, then people are like, it's a tough sell.
I try it every night on my show.
But it's true.
I mean, there is such a long history in this country of vampires, like people who are harming kids and videotaping themselves do it.
Go look up Earl Bradley.
Oddly enough, Bo Biden, who Joe Biden never really talked about in terms he should have, Bo Biden put an end to a pediatrician videotaping himself, harming children in his basement.
Just because it's like, and I'm not saying that.
That's just one of many.
I'm not saying that, you know, horrible things don't happen.
Everyone knows that Ed Gein was a person.
Everybody knows who the Night Stalker was.
Everybody knows about Jeffrey Dahmer, which, you know, some of the most macabre serial killers and stuff.
So there's no question that it does happen.
And it makes perfect sense that if there are people that are powerful, that have influence and they happen to be those types of serial killers or have that kind of malicious and sadistic inclination, then they're going to use their power to cover it up.
Yeah.
And I think think that it's I don't think that it's I think it's pervasive.
I think it's so pervasive.
Because like an example I typically make is like, look, you can go look up stories of politicians with trial porn and it's insane or people who've been abused or the way they wield their power.
When you say politicians, what do you mean by politicians?
Representatives, congressmen.
Congress people.
And the reason I ask is because, yes, I agree.
You can go up and go and look and see and find many Republican and Democrats.
Yeah, no, there's not a side.
There's many of them, but you do have to, like, I do think it's worth remembering that there's 435 members of Congress at any one time.
And congressional representatives change very, very frequently.
So there's literally probably a couple thousand congressional representatives.
Joe Biden.
I think harm children.
Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I think that when you're talking about that number of people and that number of people that have like dark triad traits, because generally to become a politician, you're a little on the, I think it's psychopaths tend to be politicians.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
That kind of stuff, I think that they're probably overrepresented.
But at the same time, I don't think that, you know, if there's 435 members of Congress, I don't think 300 of them are politicians.
I don't know if all of them are, but I know a lot of their, I guarantee a lot of the staffers are, and a lot of those unelected bureaucrats probably take part take in this as well.
And the weird parties they do, you know, you look at George Santos saying recently about those cages they had beneath the offices where all these weird sexual things were going on, Senate staffers sodomizing each other in congressional hearings.
I'm more apt to believe that there is insane debauchery going on in Congress and with staffers in D.C. than I am to believe that there are multiple people committing murder and drinking the blood of the people.
And I think that that's true.
To an extent, I kind of think too that we're almost getting in the weeds with this of like, how depraved is Congress?
How depraved is our government?
I mean, the point is, is that people, even if they're not educated on all this stuff or they don't share these specific beliefs, people have a general sense that there is something very wrong with those in control of our government and our society, right?
So all you have to do is have something that taps into that and then has some basis in fact, which as we know, there's a lot of basis in fact for thinking that Epstein was hooked into upper echelons.
To that point, doesn't it, doesn't, do you, do you think that the argument that, well, people generally don't like Congress, but they generally like their congressional representative, do you think that that feeds into it?
People are like suspicious of Congress and they think something's going on, but then if you drill down, do you think your representative is doing it?
No, not mine.
That's my sense.
My sense is people would be like, well, no, I think my congressional representative is good.
And the something nefarious is going on, something bad is going on probably ends at the familiarity of their own.
I know one of our congressmen, I think it's a failure right now.
Yeah, I don't.
I know a lot of people just like my congressmen.
You know, totally neglecting FBI whistleblowers who've had their lives completely ruined for calling out FBI's unethical practices, who have not been rehired, who are completely destroyed by lawfare, one of many within FBI, and congressmen who represent these whistleblowers have done nothing, you know, and is not even say anything.
That's a problem to me.
Well, and that gets into something else, too, that I think is going to increasingly generate, if this is not better handled, this is increasingly generate anger, is that people have also the feeling that we are held to different standards than those in charge of our government.
100%.
And so there's a sense, no matter what it is, that they're getting away with stuff.
And so when you have something like this that comes along where people trusted the Bush administration, people trusted the Trump administration, they trusted Bongino, they trusted Patel, and then all of a sudden, and Pam Bondi has been talking out of her ass for months.
Oh, I've got truckloads of it.
It's on my desk.
I'm looking at it.
It's getting closer.
I can see it.
The file is getting closer.
I'm going to have it.
And, you know, it's like a horror movie.
You're supposed to, it's creeping up any day now.
But, and, and nothing.
And for most people, that is just, it's a bridge too far.
It's too much to ask people to tolerate these dramatic reversals, the sense of gaslighting, the condescension.
And again, Trump attacking his own base at this point.
There's all that for sure.
And then I'm trying to think about how, you know, we can tell people who aren't plugged in as schizophrenically as I might be to all this stuff.
But like one example could be, so we know what Epstein has done.
He's been in, he went to jail for it.
Right.
And when he went to jail the first time in Florida, look at that sweetheart deal he got.
Right.
He was given, he was able to leave whenever he wanted, still had his passport, left the country, came back, only spent 13 months in there.
That's insane.
So you're talking about like rules for the not free.
Right, right.
It's such a great example of how this guy harmed underage children and was in prison for it and then was allowed to just do his business.
That makes me believe that Epstein is not the pinnacle of this, that he is a small piece of the puzzle.
It's a cutout because when they went after the mob, they would do the most brutal mobsters that have dozens of bodies, right?
They would let them go if they could get the mob boss.
If they can get testimony.
How pervasive do you think it is then?
I don't know because this seems like a Western problem, right?
It seems like a uniquely Western five-eyes country problem.
Other cultures.
Epstein?
Wait, which part?
Epstein.
Which part is a pervasive problem?
I think that what you're talking, I think what you're articulating is an issue of familiarity, not an issue of it being isolated to the West.
I imagine, considering the fact that most people would consider Eastern European countries as uniquely corrupt or countries that are not Western more corrupt than the United States, I think that it's probably not just more pervasive in Eastern Europe and in other parts of the world, but it's actually looked at as normal.
Are you talking about corruption?
And that's so, if it's normalized in places of the world, like Eastern Europe or the Middle East, like this type of debauchery and this behavior.
Why would you have leverage over people?
Are you talking about corruption or the sexual blackmail stuff and harming children or all that together?
Kind of all of it together.
Okay, because I mean, that is ancient.
It's ancient.
It's going on forever, and America is no different.
Go look at all the child sacrifice in the Bible.
Well, I mean, not only that, but like in other parts of the world, not only is it considered normal and not shocking, if you're under a monarchy, most monarchies can just say, well, we're doing this and it doesn't matter what you think.
And if you raise your head up and say that this is a problem, we'll just have it cut off.
So I just want to say, like, thinking again about people who aren't plugged in and wondering why this is so important, wondering, I personally don't think it's just online voices screaming about Epstein.
They're the only people who seem to care about it.
And then thinking about his sweetheart deal in prison and then people saying, well, he just killed himself and just writing it off.
I don't think Epstein was a suicidal person.
I think knowing how he was treated in prison in Florida, that dude had a sweetheart deal after a ton of people came forward with corroborating evidence saying he harmed children.
I think he knew so many people in power that he had no fear of prison.
I think that whole thing was designed for him to get out of that one jail cell and maybe they used Tartaglion as a sort of patsy of sorts or maybe he's in on it.
I don't know.
To get him alone, to get him his freedom so they can keep doing these things.
I don't think our government gives up on it.
What makes Epstein so special that some regular old CIA agent couldn't do?
Because he was very, he was a smooth operator.
He was apparently very intelligent.
Right.
But after the whistle was blown, after people realized what he was up to, why would they even...
I think that's why you have to have a cutout is because he's not technically CIA.
You know, when the prime minister, the former prime minister just came out recently saying he was, I can tell you verified, he was not Mossad.
I'm like, yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure he worked with you, though.
Like Robert Maxwell worked with you.
He wasn't technically Mossad, but a lot of people who are not technically CIA, but you're still an asset.
Yeah, he was smooth and he just had these connections.
I mean, I think he was groomed into these positions and used.
And maybe because they knew what his proclivities were, you know, and they used that, say, hey, he felt above the law.
Clearly he was above the law.
Look how he was in Florida jail.
And I just want to say here, too, the fact that he received such an obvious easy deal in the Florida situation and that really it seems like for years people were over the government was overlooking his crimes.
There's no way to explain that except to say that he must be connected to or entrenched with the government.
And so the problem then with Trump or his people trying to pass off now the idea that there's nothing to see here and this was just a perverted guy committing crimes in isolation is that that does not then explain why he was allowed to get away with it for so long.
Either he was allowed to get away with it or he got these easy deals like in Florida because of his connections like Acosta said and his usefulness to the government and his and his or he wasn't.
So what would you say to people that would say, well, you know, during the 90s and late 80s and 90s, he was friends with Bill Clinton and so that was his insulation.
I think Bill Clinton was on the plane after 2016.
They were after 2016.
I think there is that.
I think Bill might have never left, but there's a ton of prominent people.
If it wasn't Bill, I want to check that, but I think it was.
But like there's a ton of prominent people who had no problem hanging out with Epstein after their conviction.
But to Christian's point, what would you say to people that are, well, I mean, he was friends with the president.
Oh, so you're saying that they would say that the rationale for him getting basically such an easy ride and being for so long tolerated by the government was because of his connections to powerful people.
I mean...
Are we supposed to understand that?
Okay, so the argument would be then that Clinton and the Clintons were pulling strings in the government to keep their buddy out of trouble?
I'm imagining because of his association.
They would be saying, oh, you know, the reason that he didn't get picked up until in the 2000s, I think the first time he was arrested was, what, 2003 or 40?
Maybe four or five.
Early 2000s.
I know it actually.
Maybe 2006, actually.
Early odds.
2006.
Say early odds, right?
So he didn't get picked up until then.
Well, that was because they were making sure, or the Clintons, specifically Bill Clinton, was making sure that he put a little pressure on people like, hey, don't go ahead and look into this too much.
He's a friend or whatever.
It could be.
It seems like that would be a great thing then for the Trump administration to delve into then.
I think people just, they want more.
They feel like they've not been given anywhere near an adequate accounting of this situation.
and people don't feel like they're entitled to know top secret, all the top secret stuff or the ins and outs of everything.
I actually think people do think that they're entitled to.
Well, and I think we are.
I think we turn it inside out because these people have been operating within this government for so long.
And like Epstein's not the only one.
And there's levels above him that we don't even know about.
So if it's as serious as you say it is, and there was this risk of Trump coming in and unleashing it all, who in their right mind would keep that evidence around?
Yeah, exactly.
That's why I can't trust what they do.
And now, you know, the breaking news last night was Pam Bondi is going to release the grand jury testimony.
Is that even real?
I actually have a problem with the idea of keep this around because even things that were written down, once you digitize it and make it into a file, it never actually goes away.
So it's possible that some of the originals were destroyed, but as soon as you scan it into a computer, then there are infinite copies.
Sure.
But then America's enemies who, the hack that shut down the oil pipeline, what year was that?
It wasn't that long ago.
It was a handful of years ago.
They can shut down oil on the entire eastern seaboard of the United States, but they can't get in and release some Epstein files.
Wouldn't America's enemies want to expose that if it was there, if it was digitized?
It all depends on how it was digitized, first of all, where it was kept, and what type of internet it was kept on.
And when I say type of internet, the United States has what they call a CIPRNet, which is internal internet that doesn't actually connect.
It's air-gapped from the actual regular internet.
It follows the same state protocols, but it doesn't actually ever connect.
And that's why you have to go into a SCIF, secret compartmentalized information center, to actually see something.
So if they took these Epstein documents and digitized them and put them onto the CIPRNet, I think it's called, then that would be totally isolated and you have to physically go to a SCIF and actually plug it, your computer in and get it that way.
All the files are written by the auto pen.
Epstein is the auto pen.
They did all the JFK files releases, which were kind of like a nothing because a lot of it we knew already.
But it's interesting to see just how they keep all these things, like Operation Mongoose stuff.
Everyone knows about it, and there's new things about Mongoose in those files.
But you're just seeing these memos going back and forth about like, okay, this is CIA guys.
We're going to use biowarfare on Cuba, destroy all their crops, and they'll think it was just natural.
And they're just writing it down and we kept it.
And you could then be skeptical of that.
Why do they keep it?
But they do keep these things.
It's odd.
I do want to, Devil's Advocate, push back a little bit on the idea, though, that it's so crazy to think that Epstein might have killed himself.
I read a biography of him or an article about him in Vanity Fair from, I think it was 2003.
And it was an interview with him.
And one of the things that was interesting about that is he claimed that he never ate out at restaurants, that even the best New York restaurants, five-star restaurants were just untenable for him, that he had to have his food cooked just a certain way by his chefs.
And I'm thinking, how is a guy like that going to fare in the Brooklyn unit?
Because he knows he's going to fake his death and be at some five-star restaurant in a day.
I think if you fake your death, how are you going to go to a flash die restaurant?
Because you've got a new face.
Oh, a new face.
Okay.
Come on, Phil.
Face off.
They do that all the time.
My thing is, okay, so Florida was like strike one.
And then he caught himself caught up again with the, was it Manhattan?
Was the district?
Yeah.
Right.
When they raided the house.
So maybe the government's like, hey, we bailed you out once.
We can't come to your rescue again.
And maybe he did take his own life.
I mean, this isn't to say, you know, what evidence may or may not exist, but just Epstein alone.
It's just hard to believe.
I mean, if you lost all your power and your access and you're sitting in that jail cell, you're alone.
You know, the whole world's watching and your power is gone.
And you're facing life.
But thank God the guy who gave me my first big job is in charge of everything right now.
Thank God.
That's weird.
I don't care what anyone says.
That is weird.
I mean, I understand what you're saying.
That's weird, but I still don't feel like weird is evident.
For the normies, it's not sufficient.
No, I get it.
I get it.
There is a cumulative effect, though, over time, where, again, I think it's early to be gauging public reaction to this public sentiment.
And there are a lot of people who still don't even aren't even following the story, don't know that there's this huge disconnect right now between Trump and his administration and then the American people.
So I do think that the longer that this story continues.
So hold on, you said there's a disconnect between this Trump and his people and the Trump and the American people on the story.
I'm saying that I don't think a lot of people are still really aware to the extent that there is this growing disconnect here between Trump and the MAGA.
Okay, all right.
But so I'm saying like over time, I do think the longer that this continues and if it continues to be embarrassing toward Trump, if he can't find a way to combat this, you know, the Wall Street Journal article did him a favor because whatever the merits may be of that story, to most people, it did look like bullshit.
And so I do think he's gotten a bit of a reprieve.
You think it's not?
I think that it certainly, look, on face value, it seems Like it's bullshit, but I am now so skeptical because of the way that Trump has been behaving, the way that certain people in his administration have been behaving, and also because it is, again, it's Epstein.
There are certain components of this that have been, this conspiracy idea that have been at least proven by Ema Costa saying, like, we couldn't fully prosecute him because he's tied in with the government.
You know, I know that that writing or the way that the Wall Street Journal relayed the writing of that birthday card or whatever, I know that it did not sound like Trump, but if someone is putting together a cheeky packet of birthday messages for someone and they say Ghelane Maxwell said to Trump, we're going to put this together for Jeff, make it something really special and make it something like personal, like maybe some inside jokes between you or whatever.
I can see where you would write in a more florid way or if you were talking about some bad secret shit, you would write in a much more sort of.
I mean, who am I to know?
But I think those are scumbag journalists taking advantage of Trump failure.
They're always scumbags.
They're always scumbaging almost all of them.
It depends which kind of bubble you're in because I saw all today when I'm scrolling the news on Twitter today, like just seeing maybe there's an update from Pamboni regarding Epstein and stuff.
I see a lot of Democrats are showing these drawings that Trump did from years ago.
I guess he would auction off a drawing from Trump.
And they're like, look, dude, this proves it.
This is like the same style of drawing that the Wall Street Journal was talking about.
So you have a lot of people that totally believe the WSJ report.
Even Coffee Zilla, if you guys aren't familiar with him, he's like one of the biggest YouTube investigative journalists.
He exposed crypto scams, a bunch of them.
He believes it.
I know people on the right who do.
And so again, and if the Wall Street Journal article had just been released separate from all of this, then I think it would be a lot easier for people to look at it and say, this is BS, but it's coming on the heels of some.
Why wouldn't they release the actual letter?
Well, I assume, obviously, that they don't have it.
And reading the article, to me, what it sounded like is, of course, someone or it sounds like several people they're claiming who have seen this.
And it was in the custody of the Department of Justice.
And so at least that's the claim.
And so I assume that the Wall Street Journal at least is claiming that they have some sources on the inside, maybe in the Justice Department, who've seen it and who can relate what is in it.
Now, again, do I trust it?
Right, right.
Justice Department working with newspapers?
I've never heard of that.
Right.
That's crazy.
That's crazy talk.
That is crazy talk.
I don't know.
I just think I do want to say this, you know, this talk of normies.
I know they exist, but I think there's a lot less now after COVID and lockdowns when everyone saw the government turn against them and mothers widespread across the country saw their children literally attacked by the government, forced vaccinations, and people started waking up to the fact that, wait, this thing I've been buying into hates me, hates my children.
And I have to, that's why RFK Jr. was so popular.
And then through that, you see a ton of people saying like, now they're looking into conspiracies, right?
People grew up into it, yes.
And I say conspiracies, I think it's history.
Right, right.
Conspiracy theorists are just historians.
And these things we know our government's depraved.
So I don't think a lot of, I think a lot less people are like, I think a lot more people are open to the fact that our government is completely out of control and depraved and willing to do anything to hurt you to maintain power.
It's trending that way.
And I think like the COVID era was a catalyst for like, the more people that get social media and smartphones in their pocket, the more I think people are given so much information that it kind of forces you to critically think.
Hopefully, you know, that's the goal.
That's what I hope.
They're also susceptible to bad information.
That's right.
And they weaponize that against you.
Which I think helps feed conspiracy theories, whether it's Epstein or Bigfoot, whatever it may be, you have all this different information coming at you.
Well, and it's becoming harder too for people, because there is so much information for people, harder than ever to differentiate what's legit and what's not.
For instance, I don't want to take this on a tangent here, but as someone who followed the Diddy saga closely, I'm amazed at how, and I believe that that was a legit trial.
And again, I don't think there was a big conspiracy there.
Come me, though.
I'm amazed.
I just think she was incompetent.
I'm amazed at how many people will say to me, though, yeah, but you had all of those celebrities going to those freak offs.
No, there were no celebrities who went to freak offs.
There have been a number of people who have filed shady lawsuits against Diddy, most of them by that scoundrel sleazebag lawyer, Tony Busby, who have claimed that, oh, yeah, I saw this celebrity here, this celebrity here.
But really, what came out in that trial is really that there's really no there there.
And so my point is just that people are inundated now with so much information that it's very difficult for them to sort out what is just conspiratorial bunk and what is more valid.
People are so willing to believe anything they want.
You're talking about confirmation bias earlier.
There were so many things coming out of the Diddy trial.
I had friends there too, and they were getting hit up all the time.
Was Prince there?
Like the ghost of Prince showed up or something, and they were hearing Prince recordings.
Totally fake.
Right, right, right.
And people I really like were totally believed.
They didn't even question the fact that it was fake.
You know, I think everything's fake.
Right.
Well, I mean, I saw.
Not just polls.
Even the things I think are fake.
I saw some.
Clouds are definitely fake, Phil.
Don't derail this conversation, Phil.
That's what I do.
Anyway, I won't take us down the Diddy Pathway.
I've done some videos on that.
People can check it out.
But I'm just saying that I think it's always been true that it was hard for people to separate conspiracy from the truth.
But now, because we're so inundated, it's just, it's like a constant.
You scroll down Twitter and you're just inundated with all these theories.
I just think conspiracy, that word, I hate that word, but I think that toward that attitude within our government is the norm.
You know, you look at Gladio, Northwoods, Agent Orange, Gulf of Tonkin, all these things.
That is the norm.
There's no question.
Look, when people get wrapped up with the term conspiracy, conspiracy is just multiple people getting together and talking about something.
It's a conspiracy theory.
That's all it is.
But when it comes to whether or not conspiracies are real, that's without a, there's no question about whether or not conspiracies are real.
I think the validity of the information is what's really the important thing, you know, whether or not there's substantially, whether you can find substantiated evidence as opposed to just, oh, I heard this guy talking about this and he said a bunch of other guys said that.
But I do want to bring it back to the topic of the show.
What do you guys think this actually means for MAGA and the Republican Party going forward?
I think it's a total fracture.
You're seeing the people who I think are intellectually dishonest, like Ben Shapiro, just falling by the wayside.
Like, I don't think they have any value.
I have not been following him.
What is his response to all of this?
He's the normie.
If you're talking about normies, he is the quintessential normie.
But he's lost me since COVID.
So Shapiro's point is, look, I was open to the idea of the ideas that have been presented here, right?
So before the information is already coming out from the current administration, he's like, I was open to these ideas, but I know Dan Bongino.
I trust Cash Patel.
I know them.
And I guess he knows them personally.
And he's like, this is what they say.
So I'm going to believe them because I don't have any evidence to the contrary.
And I also believe Pfizer.
Well, I mean, there's this sentiment that with all the points.
The point is, you know, he's just taking the story at face value.
Yeah.
So what I want to say, though, is I think it's fractured people within MAGA, but I think you see a lot of, in my terms, I know there's people online saying the people in my life don't care about Epstein at all.
That's not what I'm experiencing, but look at me and I'm crazy.
I know a lot of crazy people take that into account.
I think there's a lot of people coalescing around the Epstein story because they've always cared about it.
People always hopefully care about children being harmed.
And when you tie that to the government and possible blackmail, that's a very important thing.
So I think I love seeing people coalesce around it online and offline, demanding stuff, even if it's in the face of this theory of like, trust the plan, bro.
Trump's doing some 5D chess, which I don't really think.
But if he does, I'd rather not be a political pawn.
I'm tired of hearing about the 5D chest.
I'd rather not be a political pawn.
There is some serious sentiment, I think, from the administration and a lot of people in MAGA that it's like, look at all the wins.
So this excuses this one blunder, but I think that's just a logical fallacy.
You don't get a free pass in real life.
You know, you're supposed to be good and just all the time.
You don't get to, and I think that was Trump's reaction was like, that's why he insulted people and he got flustered.
He was like, I've done so much for you.
I've done so much.
Are you really complaining about this?
Look what he's been through.
I mean, of course.
I totally understand.
I'm not one of those people who's going to go burn my MAGA hat.
I don't have a MAGA hat.
If I had one, I'm not going to burn it.
I'm not someone who's going to denounce him publicly.
I'll criticize him.
And I support those wins, you know, the steel, natural gas, the we are arresting pedophiles.
Nixon had the same complaint.
Nixon's like, I went to China.
I normalized relations with China.
I did this and that.
Why do you care about this Watergate thing?
Well, you can complain about it as much as you want, but I don't care.
And I'm not denying that, but I'm just saying that politicians can complain as much as they, or commentators can bemoan as much as they want to the fact that this is at the moment overshadowing Trump's games.
But that is the game.
And Trump, by the way, you know, he initially got into politics by trying to prove that Barack Obama was not born in the United States.
So he's not really one to tell us what we should be interested in.
I want those papers.
I mean, I'm with them.
And the more you tell people not to care about something, the more they're going to be coming for your throat.
But I really want to pull this back.
What do you think it means for MAGA and for the Republican Party moving forward?
We can talk about all the mistakes that were made.
And we've talked about that for an hour and it's been covered ad nauseum by about every podcast in the past six months or whatever.
What do you guys think this means for MAGA?
Do you think that this is a coalition-breaking issue?
Or do you think that at the end of the day, people are going to say, well, he did do all these things that I do like.
I don't like this.
And the options are the Democrats.
Do you think that people will stay home in the midterms?
And now, keep in mind, the midterms are, you know, there's a significantly lower turnout.
And the people that go to the midterms are more politically plugged in than the average person.
So, you know, for lack of a better term, the normies generally stay home in the midterms.
Or do you think that this is something where people will say, oh, even though it's bad and I don't like this, I'm still going to go out and vote for things that I think are actually better for me?
Because at the end of the day, if you're MAGA, the policies that the Republicans are talking about are going to have a better effect on your life than the policies of the Democrats.
I mean, I personally, although I champion those wins from Trump, I feel like a lot of the joy has been superficial.
I think people are suffering in this country.
People are not having, their paychecks are still being robbed.
These taxes are coming out.
The groceries are so expensive.
Gas is so expensive.
So if the economy does get better, I'm sure they'll go out to vote in the midterms.
I do see a lot of, I don't say nihilism, apathy amongst voters, you know, and they're not really getting the wins.
I mean, we're out here in the panhandle.
I know a lot of people who were fired by Doge, who were Trump voters, and they don't understand why they fired.
And it's hard because I'm like, I wanted Doge to destroy the government, but I also have sympathy for people who don't understand why they lost their jobs and are replaced by AI that was made by a guy, you know, who don't get me started on Elon.
You know, like, so that's, that's tough.
I also think the left is activated now more than they've been in a while in their hatred for Trump, like always, right?
So you're going to have to watch out for that.
I think it would be MAGA exists beyond just Trump and the people who just worship Trump like cat turd.
Like, that's a problem.
Like, you shouldn't have a false idol, right?
Cat turd is really having a rough couple of weeks.
I really can't stand that person.
But like, I thought he was ghostwriting a lot of Trump's truth social posts recently.
But I think if Trump fails on the Epstein stuff, that is a big loss in my opinion, despite the wins, because of how I feel about the importance of the Epstein story within our government and the world.
And it would be an indictment on Trump not being the wrecking ball that I think a lot of people voted for.
It's representative of a larger phenomenon.
Yes.
We thought he was going to go in there and obliterate the deep state, but I don't know if that's possible.
You know, that is evil you're talking about, like legit evil.
I don't know if you can do that despite Running on it.
It reminds me of that Oliver Stone movie, Nixon.
It's a great movie.
And there's an anecdote in there, which is actually based, in fact, where Nixon would go to the Lincoln Memorial in the middle of the night to talk to protesters.
And there's this great scene, you probably know it, where he's talking to one of the girls, female protesters, and she says, and he basically says, I'm trying to tame the system.
I'm trying to make it do some good.
And she's like, you can't control it, can you?
And he has this epiphany.
And he's like, she was right.
And I want to say one other thing, too, that I think is also going on right now with this anger from MAGA at Trump.
I think that there are a number of Trump supporters, MAGA people, who have gotten tired of over the years being told that they are just mindless followers in a cult.
And I think that consciously or unconsciously, this is offering people the opportunity to say, see, I'm not in a cult.
I'm not blindly obedient.
I have a problem with this Epstein stuff.
And I see people online who seem to be, and I'm not saying this is wrong, it's understandable, seem to be reveling in the opportunity to take a stand against Trump to show.
I just think that's a side benefit of it in a way that people may not be aware of.
But I think that's going on as well.
Phil, to answer your question, I think with this Epstein stuff coming out now, I think it won't really have an impact on the midterms.
That being said, I am not optimistic for Republicans performing well in the midterms.
I think a lot of people are one-issue voters that may be Epstein and that may make them stay home.
Most people stay home, as you pointed out, as it is.
Now, the economy, right?
Phil, you constantly point this out.
This is the number one driver.
If people can't afford their groceries, people can't afford gas.
I'm Gen Z. When you tell me, oh, are you thinking about buying a house?
I laugh at you.
I think you're making a joke.
If that's still the reality, it's not that I'm going to go vote Democrat, but it's like, will someone like me actually be motivated?
It's like, oh, it's a Tuesday.
I've got work.
I've got to go to the doctor.
I'm not going to vote in mid-2000s.
That's right.
I don't think people are going to switch votes, right?
Like, I don't think there's going to be a mass exodus from the Republicans now back to the left.
I think you saw a lot of an exodus from the left to the right, and now they might not feel so good about it, whether it's the economy not doing as well despite what they say.
I mean, the economy might be doing better.
The tariffs didn't destroy the economy like they said they're going to on the left, but people are suffering.
It was a giant hole, and it's not one term, one four-year presidency is not going to dig us out of this hole.
It's going to be a great start.
And, you know, the Democrats are not doing themselves any favors.
They're like, Zoron is becoming the new face of the party, and they're embracing it.
I haven't heard from any prominent Democrats other than Zoron in the last, what, month?
You know?
I mean, Bernie Sanders came out.
Yeah, so it's like, if they keep embracing socialism, I mean, that's going to turn away the moderates.
I mean, that'll turn away the moderates, but it can actually.
And what's the more attractive party for a moderate right now?
Like, what's the more attractive party right now for a moderate?
Demon by the name of Gavin Newsom will take advantage of the party.
That fraction of the party going so fresh.
That's still down the road, though, because you're presidential stuff.
Talking about stuff for midterms.
I do say if there's some kind of new coalition, like not a MAGA, but like what Elon's floating and Andrew Yang's interested, you're going to get those like moderate kind of...
I think it would split MAGA, and I think Democrats probably would stay home.
I think it would split the...
Or it could just siphon off enough.
It's the big tent common sense party.
And a lot of things, Epstein's not going to be that one issue that makes or breaks the election.
That's honestly my sense as well.
I think that the Epstein story matters a whole lot to a very small vocal group of people.
I think that they're just going to be able to do it.
But it is still early.
And I think that because there is such a controversial tabloid appeal to this, that just in a very human sense, rational or not, it really gets people.
I think this could become, right?
It's still early days.
I think this could become bigger if it's not handled properly.
Trump needs to put a tourniquet on this thing.
How does it get bigger?
Because I feel like for it to get bigger, new information has to come out or new information has to come out that the administration denies.
If there's no new developments beyond, I mean, the Wall Street Journal thing that came out yesterday that was supposed to be like, oh, this is going to be a big thing.
This is going to be an issue.
It was such an prior to it actually being released, the rumor was that it was such a big issue that Trump himself called the Wall Street Journal and actually gave a statement to him, talked to him.
So this was supposed to be a big deal.
And that is a total nothing burger.
I'm not sure it's as much of a nothing burger, though, as you were saying.
You were talking about how you see a lot more people online than you would think who were buying it.
And again, all of this is cumulative.
So it's kind of like taking on leaks, you know, in a leaky boat, one, two, three leaks, whatever.
But over time, it weighs it down.
But no, I don't.
If you put a gun to my head and ask me, I don't think it's going to have a tremendous effect on the midterms.
What does matter mean?
Because Shane Gillis just got up on stage at the Espys and made an Epstein joke.
Does it move people not to vote for their own interests?
Yeah, if you're talking about Epstein as like a political motivator to get to the polls, yeah, I don't think it matters.
I think it is definitely mainstream.
People are making, you pointed out people are making jokes about Epstein just like they do 9-11, like another giant conspiracy that people talk about.
Like it's mainstream, but it doesn't motive.
People aren't not voting Republican or Democrat because they think 9-11 was an inside job or not.
just to sum up your opinion you don't think that this is going to change MAGA significantly I think it will change it.
I think a lot of people do care about it, but a lot of people will also not change their vote because of it.
But I think there's a large group of people who are disenfranchised with MAGA right now.
And there are people who came over from Maha, not happy with a lot of the FDA stuff that's been coming out recently, which is completely contradictory to what RFK Jr. ran on and his books, you know, the six-month-old stuff.
It's not good.
You know, I think that's not very, very, very bad.
And so I see that's a big coalition, you know, those moms.
And by the way, there are a number of people who have supported Trump or consider themselves MAGA or maybe peripherally MAGA, who can be peeled away from this, at least in terms of their enthusiasm.
I mean, I would count myself in this category.
I supported Trump in all three elections that he ran in.
And I feel like this, I'm so disgusted right now with the way that he is condescending to, and I feel gaslighting his people and calling us weaklings that I would be inclined to just kind of be apathetic next election.
I think he can redeem himself.
I think there's still time for that.
You know, we've seen him pull off other crazy stunts.
I'm not happy with, obviously, how this has been handled.
But Trump, I think, can regain his balance.
I don't know how it's going to happen.
I think their messaging has to get much better.
What do you think it, Trump just told Pambondi to release all of the pertinent information.
Well, he said the part that, yeah, a pertinent or credible, right?
Credible.
Pertinent, credible.
So that plays right into my point.
How many people, man, I personally think the people that care about Epstein, I think a large percentage of them, no matter what the government releases, it's not going to be enough because it doesn't confirm their bias.
It won't be enough for it.
Well, there you go.
So that's the point.
How much does it matter for what they release, considering what we kind of all agree to, that no matter what comes out, unless it confirms people's bias, how much does it matter that they're doing this?
Because Trump said, he's like, you know, you won't let this die.
So here, have all of it.
This is why the messaging should have been better much earlier on.
But the point that you're making then is it doesn't matter.
No, I'm not saying that actually.
No, I'm not saying.
I'm saying earlier on, if the messaging had been good or consistent or not condescending or whatever you want to say, then I and others would have, I think, been a lot more willing to let this go.
But what this has done is like picking off a scab or stoking a fire so that now moving forward.
Yeah, I think he's almost kind of, I think he's in danger actually of what I call a PR death spiral, where maybe there's nothing that's going to, that's going to fix this, but he could certainly, he could certainly change his tone.
No, that's a basic, that's a basic thing.
Stop acting like you are befuddled at why.
Have you met Donald Trump?
Have you seen how Donald Trump behaves?
There's two, honestly, you'd like to think about it.
Well, I've never seen him calling his followers weaklings.
No, but he calls everybody else.
He's incredibly critical of another is always telling him.
As soon as they say something that he likes, he's like, oh, they're a great guy.
Everyone knows that's how Donald Trump acts.
Right.
Everybody knows, but his supporters have never had that focus on them.
It's not his supporters, because there are people out there that are like, no, I support Donald Trump and this is all BS.
So it's the people that are, you know, that, again, as we've kind of discussed.
Because they have a preconceived idea about the Epstein stuff and what it is.
Well, it's not preconceived, though, when he's been feeding into it.
When you botch something as badly as he's botched the PR on this, then you're...
Because the botching doesn't debotch.
What part's preconceived?
Well, they already believe, like people that believe that, the people that believe that it's about, you know, people that believe that it's about pedophiles or people that believe that it's about Israel.
They've always believed that.
And they always will believe that.
I mean, no matter what comes out, there is verifiable stuff out there about why is a former prime minister of Israel, Ehud Barak, going into his mansion in 2016.
So again, this is not, but why would anyone, would you ever go to someone's house after they've been convicted for what they did?
My point is, people that believe these things believed them before Trump got into office.
They believe, again, these are the same people that believe Cash and Dan Bongino and Pam Bondi and Donald Trump are going to get in and show them all the stuff.
And show them all the stuff meant give me the confirmation of the things that I already believe.
And so now any more information that comes out, I don't think that they're going to say, oh, this I believe.
Well, yeah, I don't think people should have believed anything that came out, especially like after the binder situation.
You know, I'm one of those people who's going to be skeptical of anything they release because what I was saying earlier, it's been through so many hands.
Who knows how it's been modified or completely changed?
I think we need something bigger.
I think we need some sort of trials.
I think we need people to be on the stand talking and interviewed almost like a Nuremberg, but for everyone connected to him, I don't care if they're innocent or not.
No, I think something along that lines.
I think at this point, it's gotten to the point where it's going to take something big.
But let me just say what's going on.
What do you arrest those people for, though?
I don't, honestly, it's going to, I mean, it's going to have to depend.
We'll see.
Bill Gates, I mean, I could arrest him for trying to kill the son, but in terms of Jeffrey Epstein, it's going to be tough, you know, because you're like, why are you with these people?
And you're going to say, well, they can be whoever they want.
They charged Trump.
What was the.
Yeah, and that wasn't right, too.
And it doesn't have to be.
But you're talking about using the justice system to attack people that you believe have done something without any actual evidence.
Which is exactly what they did.
So we think there's a crime.
So you could convict.
But that was wrong and that was bad.
It has to be that dramatic.
I think we need intelligence people talking on trial.
I think we need a bar.
I want to see Ghalan back on trial, like something really big.
These people were handling him around him.
Let her talk to neighbors.
Right.
Like, I think that would be a good step in the right direction.
And look, don't trust everything she says because she's literally an asset who was groomed by her father who was doing crazy things.
It's not true.
But you're poisoning.
But I want to.
But I do want to point out, though, we finish your thought.
Yeah, I'll just say, like, yeah, you have to because you're never going to get the full truth, you know?
And we can't trust any institution to give us the full truth.
But the more they can do to at least try to be better at being transparent and let us be the judge, that's all I ask for because you have to be skeptical of everything they're telling you because they've been lying to us our whole lives.
You know, I'm not going to trust Cash and Dan because they just do podcasts.
You know, even if I knew that, I don't know them, but like I'm not just going to blindly trust them.
Not because maybe they are lying to me and they know it, but maybe they've just been lied to, like what I was saying with Trump.
So yeah, you kind of do have to poison the waters, but you also have to demand more transparency.
And there's a whole bunch of people like Ghelane or Barr and I would love to see on trial, not trial, but on the stand, just questioned, grilled about all their connections.
Yeah, and I want to go back to something that you said just a minute ago.
You said, if you have all of these people who already believed that there was something nefarious going on with Epstein and they thought that Trump's people were going to get in and take care of it, aren't they going to now continue with that bias basically?
Nothing's going to be good enough for them.
Yes, you have those people, but you also have people like me who did not really give a shit about the Epstein story.
I mean, yeah, bad guy, whatever.
I didn't care, but now my ears have been perked up just by the mishandling of it.
And so I think people like me could be placated if the approach were changed.
I do think there are some who.
Is the messaging really the biggest issue for you?
Because they dropped the investigation into Prince Andrew.
They fired the process of the, was it the top prosecutor for Epstein?
Maureen Comey.
Was she the top prosecutor, though?
Yeah, she prosecuted Ghillain, Nicholas Tartaglion, the guy I was telling you about who was jailed as well.
It's not just the messaging that's a disaster.
Those actions, those moves are really suspect.
On top of all this, the WSJ report, now we're getting grand jury testimony.
Something stinks.
Something really.
Something's rotten in the state of Denmark.
Yeah, and I think normal people, it's way too esoteric.
I think normies to kind of go back to the whole point of this show today.
It's too esoteric.
It's too many details.
It's too many different directions.
And maybe that's the goal.
Maybe it's to overwhelm it where people are like, I don't know, man.
Part of the reason why I have this sense right now is just look at the chat.
The chat is excoriating me.
Because.
Those are bots that I bought.
They're excoriating me.
And it's like, I'm implicated.
I did this.
But those are trolls, too.
I don't think some of those people would believe.
The point that I'm making is the only reason people would watch this is because they care about it.
So the chat's full of people that have a bias and they care about it.
But there are also a lot of people like me and people I've talked to who are not so politically invested who did not care much about Epstein, but now have been, their ire and their curiosity has been aroused.
And so I do think that there's a whole other layer on top of this.
And look, again, we can't act like the messaging on this has just been inadequate.
I mean, I feel like it's like that scene in Apocalypse Now, to quote my favorite movie, when you've got Martin Sheen sitting there in front of Kurtz, and Kurt says to him, do you find my methods unsound?
And Martin Sheen says, I don't see any method at all, sir.
That's kind of how I feel, right?
The horror.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, people certainly have their confirmation bias and I understand why.
And I also think, like I was saying earlier about this being an indictment on journalism as a whole, because for what, to your point, it's hard to even write about this.
There's so many moving parts if you want to go down a Robert Maxwell path.
What happened with the promise scandal, the octopus murders, which happened in Martinsburg, West Virginia.
Really?
Which is about a journalist was looking into the promise scandal, which is about the stolen spyware when Robert Maxwell is a part of that Mossad U.S. and all this stuff.
And this journalist was starting to connect the dots and was meeting with a source in Martinsburg.
And the journalist was saying, you know, this is, he was calling it the octopus.
It's many tentacled thing, right?
With all these, you know, which I like, it goes to Kurt's, what she was saying about Nixon talking about this wild animal, right?
I mean, that's what's going on, I think, behind the curtain of our reality.
And the journalist was found with his arms like just slid up real bad.
They ruled it as a suicide, but it was just, it was really bizarre.
When was this?
I don't remember when it was.
I don't want to say maybe late 90s, maybe later.
I'm not sure.
I think there's a documentary on it.
But like, that's one path.
And that's just Robert Maxwell.
You can go into Pergamon Press.
You know, we were talking earlier about science.
You're talking about the Epstein thing from that show.
Yeah, yeah.
The expands.
It's called the Epstein Drive.
So then thinking about journalists, you can go down the path of like Epstein and science.
Why was he a math teacher?
Why was he part of the Harvard math department?
Talk to Eric Weinstein, who was part of the Harvard math department.
He's like, why does Epstein know about my research?
He doesn't know what he's talking about.
Why does he care about gravity stuff?
It's bizarre.
What are you talking about, Eric Weinstein?
Eric Weinstein, I think he met Epstein once, but Epstein ingratiated himself into the Harvard math department.
And he thought he was gatekeeping innovation.
It's almost like the plot of Catch Me If You Can't with Epstein.
Right.
Except he, I think, phony.
He conned his way to the top and then lived kind of this degenerate life.
But so like there's all these things, all these moving parts with this insane story, not to mention the most depraved part about the children.
Right, of course.
But then the power play, who is he hanging out with?
Lolita Express, all these things.
Ghalain.
So it's hard to condense it into a story that makes sense.
And I think a lot of people also have an issue willing to accept just how evil people are.
Like when I wrote that story about catching those pedophiles with Alex Rosen right in Ohio, that was the most evil stuff I had seen like right in front of me.
Like these guys were straight up demons who were going to go find, you know, they thought they were going to meet an 11-year-old girl.
Right.
And, you know, people were like, I appreciate you writing this story, but I just can't read it.
And I totally understood because it's like, it's torture.
Like listening to them talk was literal torture.
And we could have done that in Ohio for three days nonstop.
There were so many people on the, on that, Alex's list to take care of.
Every few months you hear like a huge bust where they get like 100 people with human trafficking.
It just happens.
It's like these people are just hanging out.
Sortaria, Operation, I think it's Sortaria and Operation Dragon Eye.
Those just happened early this year, maybe like last month.
Hundreds of kids saved, hundreds of pedophiles arrested.
Amazing.
You know, this is in Texas, I believe, in Florida.
It's so prevalent amongst, I think, every level of our society.
That's why I think it's prevalent up top and it's prevalent down below.
Like those people we're in Ohio catching just monsters at 7-Eleven, but they're politicians as well.
We know they're in colleges.
They find their way in churches.
This is an evil thing, this urge that they need to satisfy this bloodlust with, this need to destroy innocence.
So it's really hard to be written about and it's really hard to understand.
And that's why the people who are so-called normies, I think they have a hard time really wrapping their heads around all of this and all the conspiratorial stuff that I like to get into.
That's kind of like just the minutiae of it.
But there's hard evidence of stuff you can talk to.
It's just a matter of figuring out how to condense it into something that's palatable.
I think the average person is latching on to the messaging failure about Epstein rather than what Epstein's actually about.
Like when you're talking, Trump doesn't help when he says it's a hoax because I don't think I don't think Trump means the whole thing's a hoax.
I think he means Trump literally said that the Clintons did it.
So he's not good with his messaging right now.
But did he mean, this is where I talk, Trump's messaging needs to get better.
I mean, that's a tough ass.
I hear what you're saying.
I think he means this list and this fervor over, you know, whatever's going on with him and people connected is a hoax.
Manufactured outrage.
Right.
But like there is real things that happened, but he's just blurting out it's a hoax.
And you're like, well, what do you mean?
Like Russia hoax?
Because that was, I think, he literally said like Russia.
He did say it's like a broken.
So is your interpretation of him saying that then, that he means Epstein?
Everything about Epstein is a hoax, even why he was in jail?
Because that's insane.
I don't know what he means at all.
He needs to say that.
He needs to say that.
And I think that what he's doing is just trying to use tactics that have worked in the past.
It's not looking good.
No, it's not.
I think it's a mix of that.
I honestly do think as we talk about this, I think the play is confuse the hell out of people.
Say one thing one day, say a different thing another thing.
Call it a hoax.
Wait, say, no, we have files.
Oh, no, we don't have files.
We have a truckload.
They're on my desk.
They're not there.
I think you're overwhelming the system.
I think that's what's happening.
I don't think it's intentional.
He's just floundering.
I don't know about that.
I think that Trump normally goes by gut instinct and his instincts have been absolutely phenomenal for the vast majority of his life.
And I think on this particular topic, his instincts are wrong and they're failing him.
And he doesn't know what to do because his instincts have always served him so well.
I think they found something that they were not expecting to find that makes it worse, in my opinion.
And I don't think they found a nothing burger and they just want us to move on.
I think there's something they found they can't talk about.
Right.
And, you know, but the messaging, I also do think to Kellen's point that there is a lot of this, I don't want to call it strategy and it's not from Trump.
I think it's Bondi maybe telling people things.
Or Baron.
Well, yeah, I mean, he is a time traveler.
You think he'd be better at it.
But like, why is Bondi saying one thing and Bongino and Cash saying other things?
Oh, I know.
They're a complete conflict.
And then Cash is on Rogan talking about things.
Rogan's mentioning like things about the Epstein case that Cash doesn't even know about.
I'm like, dude, how invested are you in this?
Like, these are things that I thought we all knew.
Well, I see one of two possibilities.
Like, either they're just lying.
They're just lying and they have to admit that they're lying or you guys are telling the truth.
There's nothing to see here with Epstein, but you guys have such disconnect and the administration is so dysfunctional where you've got the head of FBI saying one thing and then Pam Bondi saying the opposite.
There needs to be change.
I'm not like, I am not okay with this.
If this truly is just like a messaging disaster internally, people aren't talking to each other, communications breaking down.
I'm not okay with those people remaining in those positions.
Oh, yeah.
There needs to be change.
But take that into the context of the whole administration, right?
You're like, this particular issue has been terribly messaged.
What compared to another one?
The point that I'm making is this particular issue has been terribly messaged.
But if from the administration's perspective, they're like, we've done all this other stuff that's been great and all these other things that have fallen right in line with the way we want.
And all these other things that we promised have happened.
This one isn't working out the way we wanted.
Should we fire people who've done great in other ways?
Because when has the key pieces of the administration been at odds with each other like this?
I can't remember another example.
I mean, he has a history of bad collaborators.
This second and first term.
This second term, though.
You're only six months in, homie.
I know, but you can't give it time.
Dude, there hasn't been another example of Pam Bondi saying the exact opposite of what Cash Patel is saying.
Or Sean Duffy.
Dude, yeah, it must be chaos.
You're going to have to just buy into my idea of how Epstein is part of the deep state for this to matter because that's just how I see this.
But Trump campaigning on taking down the deep state does matter and it undoes his wins, in my opinion, because you're then just allowing this machine to keep going.
And this is the machine that tried destroying Trump violently and with lawfare.
And that machine is against us, right?
That's what he was campaigning with that meme.
They're not after me.
They're after you.
I'm just in the way.
Right.
But now it's become, it's not me, it's you.
Right.
And it's like, wait, this is, we've all been on this train with the, we're trying to obliterate this.
You have to accept the premise that there is stuff going on.
Yeah, and I do.
And all of the things that.
Well, even if there isn't, let's say there isn't.
Because there's two, two, and hold on.
The two points that I'm making is there is error and they have had bad messaging or there's actually things going on and it's not error, but it's miscommunication about how to present the information because they're trying to cover up.
So those are the two.
The pattern of this country has been that they lie to us and they hurt us at every possible turn that they can, whether it's your children or but are Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, Donald Trump, and Pam Bondi, are those four people part of they?
It's very possible.
Okay.
It's very possible or they are so afraid that they can't do anything.
So then what does that mean for MAGA?
Is there a future for MAGA if they are part of quote-unquote since people are unwilling to accept just how evil it is in the way I see it, they will continue to vote MAGA-ish, but maybe give up on Trump.
Well, Trump, I mean, he can't do much else now unless he does that third term, which I don't think he has.
We're in it right now.
But like, I don't think people widespread in this country are going to give up their votes because they do believe in MAGA.
Me personally, it is super disenfranchising, although I've been disenfranchised forever with the government and how they treat us.
But I was holding out a little bit of hope for Trump to do what he was saying he was going to do, considering how horrible they attacked him all this time with all the lies.
Obama spied on him, right?
Like, it is insane.
Spying on his campaign, the lawfare, the violence, throwing his lawyers in jail.
I mean, this has to stop.
And if he's out, and then the left is that activated again, which I think they are, and they get back in, then they just have the reins to the machine again.
And then it's us all alone once again.
Uh, so it's why this is important to me because Epstein is just a facet of the deep state that must be destroyed or exposed.
Like, I want to drag the demons into the daylight.
I know it's a tall ask because there's so many, but look at where we are.
We're watching, we're watching him get shot at in Butler, all these assassination attempts.
This doesn't stop.
American, political violence is an American tradition that's been going on since the beginning, and it doesn't stop.
And it's always shrouded in lies.
Like, we still don't, I just had a guy on the show.
Um, the Zapruder film, the Zapruder film is a, I think, a fake, right?
Like, you can look into that and how the CI manages the Zapruder film.
There's so many things we don't know about.
And like, they, it's this pretend transparency that they all leak out, but it's not because they like what Epsom was doing and like other people like him, they handle, they're handlers to the narrative, they're handlers to extreme power, and they're part, and they're complicit in destroying this country and feeding off of our suffering.
And I think on there, they need a scapegoat.
Unfortunately, it's gotten that bad that if someone's not removed or they don't pin the blame at the very least on someone for this messaging disaster, because they're never going to admit that they lied to us, which I think is the likely thing.
And then what's the other scenario?
Oh, we are bad at communicating with each other.
We can't give actual messaging out to the public.
Well, you say they can't admit that they've lied to us.
Could they admit that the reason that their messaging has been bad is because there were truths that they felt like they did not have to tell us, and now they see that they have to?
Like, could Trump come out and say, well, look, we were trying to hold this intelligence operation together or do this or this or this or whatever, protect innocent people.
But now I see that the American people, they demand more extensive answers, so we're going to give you more.
I mean, that sounds great, but I think that's a fantasy.
I don't think there's any reality where that happens.
I think you're right.
I think it would be great, but it's not going to...
To your point, you talk about they need a scapegoat.
I don't think the scapegoat, I don't think that there is any scapegoat that will satisfy because Epstein himself was supposed to be the architect of all this stuff, and he's dead, and Gilane is in prison now.
Not for the crimes, though.
Again, like my government, like Bondi, Fire Bondi or something.
Right.
My bigger issue is not that people are contesting Epstein's crimes.
It's the fact that we don't have the evidence.
We know it exists and we know they, you know.
So when you say the evidence, evidence of what, like what is the evidence that you know exists and what is.
What is it?
Banner.
What are you?
Those are matters.
What is the evidence on that?
Well, we heard these are not things that are on them that are written in the middle of the middle.
This is where it's going to be in the medium, sure.
But it's like, why not just show us that?
That's where it gets tough because we were told that FBI took all these videos of people with underage girls from the Manhattan place.
Were we told that or were we told that he has videos?
I mean, because you can't trust the FBI.
So again, we were told that.
We have been told.
There's video of them hauling out.
Rental chairs.
That was the story.
But then you can't release that video because I don't want to.
No, no, the videos, if I understand correctly, those videos that you're referring to were videos of public spaces, not in the rooms.
I heard it was part of his in the Manhattan apartment.
But even still, those would have been like, they were like in the hallways, not in the actual rooms.
Is that not?
I don't know.
I mean, this might be the Mandela effect, but I remember like holes in the walls with cameras that they reported on.
But again, it's like this whole thing is so misreported, it's hard to know.
But that's how I remember people having like a vault of footage of alleged clients for the blackmail.
What was with the recent, I mean, there was the recent FBI disclosure, right?
That, or was it Justice Department, that prior to this whole controversy, that there were a thousand victims?
They had upped the number to a thousand.
So they say, you know, and then they, and then this is where it gets all crazy because, you know, someone like Virginia Guffray, who just died, she said that Ehud Barak abused her.
Of course, her credibility.
This is the other thing that gets complicated.
Megan Kelly is one who's pointed this out, is that Virginia Duffray and a number of the other accusers have lied about some things where it's been demonstrated at least that they were dishonest.
And this was something that Dershowitz pointed out as well when he said that there were files that had not been released.
And it turns out he was talking about evidence of the duplicity of the accusers.
Yeah, well, Dershowitz, I love when he wrote a book defending Bill Clinton and Monica Lincoln's sex scandal.
And I love when Newsweek cover that story.
I know he's not the most credible.
Yeah, and he's also pals with Vepstein too.
But that's kind of the point.
Or this stuff that we're talking about, there's always more conspiracy.
There's always, you know, conspiracies live in, conspiracies live in the information that we don't have.
They live in the cracks.
Lack of transparency.
Exactly.
Well, not just the lack of transparency, but as long as someone can say this and this, and there's space in between, and that is where I'm going to fill in my information, right?
But I think that's the normalcy bias we should have, honestly, because that's the way this country operates in terms of the way they brainstorm all these ridiculous operations, whether it's mind control.
I mean, this is all documented stuff.
So if you have a normalcy bias, your normalcy bias should be rooted in the fact that they are constantly plotting against us.
Operation C-Spray, biowarfare, you know, the MKUltra stuff, Charles Manson's ties to CIA.
This is just the norm.
So like people got mad at me on Monday when Tim asked, you know, would you do it if it meant communism would happen, which is, you know, a crazy hypothetical.
But I said, we'd do it no matter what.
Would you do what?
Tim asked me on Monday night on IRL, would you like expose everything with Epstein, even if that like destabilized the entire country and led to communism?
To which my reply is to a lot of these angry messages I got, the country's already destabilized.
We're already living under violent tyrants.
It's just modern barbarism, and it doesn't look like what you think of as a pole pot, which we did fund, Carter-funded pole pot.
You know, it's like we are violent and insane.
I had that thought.
Like, when Epstein died in 2019, was it 2019?
It was kind of like when the world broke, COVID.
And I was like, what if for some weird, effed-up reason, Epstein and this operation was somehow holding everything together, holding the veil up?
How many times on IRL have I said, I think COVID is connected to Epstein?
I think they shut the world down because of Epstein.
Because I think this is deeply...
He looks surprised every time I say it.
I told you so many times.
They shut down the world with a fake virus.
And they tried lying about us with a bat soup.
What do you mean by fake virus?
I mean, they told us we were all going to die.
Six feet separation, locked down.
It was so fake.
So it was the flu.
Are you saying that COVID didn't happen?
COVID was the flu.
I think Shane is saying the response was not appropriate.
My state locked down.
Cuomo threw sick people with the flu into nursing homes.
Tens of thousands of people died.
Small businesses totally destroyed.
So that's what I'm saying.
But I do think that there was a connection between Epstein dying.
That was like when Epstein went to jail, we were all united for a brief amount of time with the joke of, well, Clinton's going to get him.
That was the thing on Twitter.
Someone keep him alive.
Right.
And then sure enough, he quote unquote killed himself.
But I personally think that this stuff is a deep ancient evil that operates around the whole world.
And COVID was a way to get back at Trump and to put everything back in the bottle.
And everyone was sent home.
You couldn't work.
You were forced to do certain things you shouldn't have to do to your body to keep your job, especially if you were a cop or ER, you know, working in emergency rooms, hospitals, doctors, soldiers.
That's, you know, in my crazy opinion, but I'm just, I'm just an insane person.
It's just weird that the world just kind of all went mad in that same one to two year period.
I mean, giant.
I thought that the world went mad in 2012 at the end of the mind calendar.
You know, I've heard people say.
Well, Y2K or the fall of man, I would say.
Your math was a little bit off.
So I think that also the advancement of technology and social media and stuff in congruence or in conjunction with COVID.
Like it does, yeah.
And the same thing we were talking about, conspiracy theories.
Now you just have access to so much information.
It used to be 20 years ago, even if someone were more conspiracy-minded, you had to search out books.
You had to go to the library.
You had to watch an Oliver Stone film or whatever.
Right.
And now it's just, you're inundated with it, even if you don't want to.
There's so many times when I'm scrolling on Twitter and I think, I don't want to read all this crap right now, but it's still coming at you, right?
Yeah, it's inescapable.
But just because people weren't worried about it years ago doesn't mean it wasn't happening, you know?
And I think now we are more attuned to it.
But you also have to be very aware of being manipulated by people who want you to go deeper and crazier.
You know, as someone who is borderline insane, like I do have to worry about like everything that might confirm whatever biases I might have.
And I, you know, you'll see it, whether it's on podcasts, mainstream news, there's little narratives that are seated in there that I think are putting out.
We know about Operation Mockingbird.
We know the government tries to manipulate the news.
And it's not just ours.
You could look up Yuri Bezmanov talking about how you destabilize an entire nation.
That's literally what they do.
And we hire them sometimes.
But Besminov was saying that's what communists do to try to do.
We do it here too, for sure.
So Besminoff's argument was communists want to destabilize Western countries so that way communists can take over.
Why would people that currently control the world, control the West, say the United States, why would they try to destabilize the United States?
I mean, I don't know why, because I think our universities are completely controlled by Marxists.
Their idea, I guess, would be what the Marxist dream is, to turn it into their idea of a paradise, a utopia, totally a heaven on earth.
It's anti-God.
So that is probably part of it.
But in my opinion, we are living in a weird post-World II era where we hired Operation Paperclip Nazis, and then they ran our government and created NASA.
And then we filled the universities with Marxists.
And they're directly opposed, right?
But they are in control.
I think the Nazis only went to the Scientist department.
No, no, I think they only went into architecture, science.
I think they did a lot.
Just Paul's department.
They worked on rockets and stuff like that.
I think the communists were actually far more influential in the government.
And I think part of what's going on with the Epstein, with the Fuhrer over this, is that even if people don't have an allegiance to, say, all the conspiracy theories that maybe Shane does, no offense, there still is just a pervasive feeling that there's so much more going on in the world and in our government and so much more evil than we perceive.
And so all it takes then is something like this where our leaders start behaving in a way that seems completely illogical.
It's like, what is Trump doing?
Why is he attacking his base, et cetera, to then make people think, well, maybe there is something to this idea that there's an evil web of connections.
Look at Time magazine, February 2020, the article about the secret cabal of people who helped to kill the election.
That's just one mainstream example of how corporations, influencers, politicians all work together.
Jake Tapper book and Biden.
Oh, yeah, that's great too.
And that's just upper level, surface level stuff, you know?
Low-hanging fruit, yeah.
So that's why my normalcy bias is rooted in that they're always working against us and they're always lying to us.
Shane, do you think that if you had to guess?
The moon is fake, yes.
Is that where you're going?
No, I was going to ask, do you think it's a good one?
There is something up there.
It's just not what we think it is.
If someone put a gun under your head and said you had to say, do you think that Trump is covering for himself, if you had to guess, or do you think...
My gut says no.
I don't think so.
I mean, the things people could look up online are weird, for sure.
I mean, he was with Robert Maxwell.
Trump and Robert Maxwell have relate, like, had some sort of relationship.
That's weird.
But I don't think he's.
Can you clarify the question?
So I'm just asking, does he think that Trump's failure here is PR failure, failure of managing this Is stemming from a place of that Trump is actually implicated in having sex with minors.
He's having sex with minors, basically.
No, I don't think that's true.
Like supermodel.
Is Trump aware of exactly what Epstein was up to?
Oh, yeah.
I think, yes.
I mean, he kicked him out of his Florida Lago.
I think Trump definitely knows, at least has somewhat understanding of how deep this goes.
Yeah.
And maybe it's his friends.
Maybe it's stuff.
Maybe it's like Tim's theory.
Maybe it's people that are literally running this country.
And if you arrest them all, shit breaks down.
And he should be okay with arresting them all.
If he found out it's his friends and they're degenerates like that, then he should be totally fine with throwing them in prison forever.
Society will go on to, this is something I went on Megan McCain's show a week ago and she said, people are saying, there's this idea that if we released the list or the evidence of people who are implicated, then there would be mass hysteria because so many people would be implicated.
There's not going to be mass hysteria.
That's like a kind of a narcissistic cop-out.
You're arguing with a narcissist and they're like, don't get mad or anything.
People know that there are aliens visiting our planet.
Nobody gives a shit, you know?
And so I think life can go on.
I think the thing is, though.
I don't think there are aliens visiting our planet, but go ahead.
You don't actually?
No?
We'll have to do another episode on this.
Yeah, we have lots of opinions on this.
So you completely don't believe in that.
I believe there are aliens.
I don't think they're not flying around the sky.
Because the distances are just so, so vast.
Warp drive.
You guys are crazy.
I've seen Adam Schiff in person.
I know for sure there are aliens in this place.
But I don't think there will be mass hysteria either.
There'll probably mass anger.
Yeah, exactly.
People like Bill Gates say he was implicated, which doesn't it seem like to you his wife is all but said that he was doing shady shit with Epstein.
She keeps bringing that up in her like divorce tour.
She's probably Michelle Obama.
That could be her trying, and I hate to even defend Bill Gates, but that is her trying to win over public sentiment.
I'm not a big fan of Melinda either.
I mean, Bill Gates should be sent to fake moon, in my opinion.
But even if people, let's say people found out, though, that Bill Gates and people of his ilk were implicated with Epstein and his crimes, people would jeer.
It would be a topic of conversation, but nothing's going to happen.
It's not going to destabilize.
We're not going to stop buying Microsoft products.
Right.
And the other sad reality is that's kind of the, kind of like the point, like with the whole MAGA stuff that we're talking about, right?
So the, you know, the question at hand is, is Epstein going to fracture MAGA and destroy it?
Like people hate on Bill Gates.
They think that he's trying to change the weather, buy farmland.
Yes.
Let me get through this.
I'm sorry, Phil, but yes.
I know.
I'm an hyperactive child.
I know you.
Get him over the table.
About to jump over the table.
The point that I'm making is like everybody, there's so many people that have so many things to say about Bill Gates and people in positions of power, but they're still buying Microsoft stuff.
They're still living their lives because the most important thing to people are their own lives.
And whereas they'll go ahead and watch this stuff and they'll watch the show and they'll say, look, this matters to me.
And they'll jump in the chat and they'll be all kinds of vocal and stuff.
At the end of the day, this is why I think that the economy is what is the most important thing when it comes to voting.
At the end of the day, the things that affect people's wallets, their immediate family and their lives are the things that motivate them to actually go and vote.
I think you're right.
I think the short-term consequences will get the people voting.
But my worry is the long-term consequences of this invisible, sinister network running the country and my children and their children inheriting that world.
But then on top of that, which is I don't believe in black pills, but I do think you get rid of.
I don't believe in black pills.
You've been doling out black pills.
He's on black pills.
All day.
He's on black pills.
All day.
No, no.
Those are white pills because I understand this.
Just reality.
There are interdimensional vampire demons that are running our country and trying to be so glad to know them.
That's a white pill.
It's a black pill if you don't know that that's happening.
And I also have faith in Christ, and that is my white pill.
But that is a white pill.
So the evil to me is defeatable.
But on this fallen planet, you get rid of Epstein and whoever's controlling him, it's like a Pez dispenser.
Another one's going to pop up.
But that's why I think these are white pills to understand how nefarious all of this is.
And I'm not going to change the world or defeat it.
But I think everyone talking about it does help because these people go to great lengths to shut you up.
The people who investigate these things, whether it's Maxwell himself implicated with the promise scandal, Epstein, whatever happened with him, the people looking into something like the Franklin scandal, which was a horrible thing with children, they will come after you.
You're threatened.
Vanity Fair in 2002 saw Gerard.
Jen and Chad are threatening me right now, bro.
Guys, don't do that.
I did not pay for the bots to threaten you.
That was an extra.
I'm not about.
I'm not following you.
Because I'm playing devil's advocate.
Oh, that's good.
Well, they believe, well, Jet9, I'm not going to say they because there's different people.
Who's they?
There are people.
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Who's they, though?
That's, yeah.
But the point is, like, people really do get animated about this stuff and get upset, especially speaking.
Well, that's what happens when you're called a weakling by a man that you have surprised me.
I didn't call anyone a weakling.
I'm talking about Trump, though.
I'm saying, well, okay, but they think you're speaking.
They think you're coming off as naive, even though it's on purpose for the sake of the conversation.
Yeah, I mean, exactly.
But the thing is, if you, if you, but this is part of my point, if you don't confirm people's biases, they get upset.
Right.
And I think that, I think no matter what Donald Trump and the administration release, people are not going to like it and they're going to be upset when it comes to the committed people that already believe.
And I think that this whole conversation, all of the stuff we're talking about, people have their opinion they believe, whatever it may be.
And that is not going to change no matter what the administration says, no matter how Donald.
And this is not to say that the administration has handled this well because I think they've blown it as badly as they possibly could.
This is the worst handled topic that they have throughout both of his presidencies, right?
So his first Administration and second.
This is the worst they've performed.
And I think that, but even in spite of that, with that taken into account, people are not going to be satisfied because the two things that they, the two things that animate people the most are the idea that Israel controls the United States and Epstein is the key to that.
And then that Epstein was a child trafficker and he's hurt children and there are other people involved that hurt children.
Those two things animate people more than most other topics.
It's going to matter for people when it matters.
When Trump was running for the second term, everyone knew his life was in danger.
But when at Butler PA, when that shot rang out, people were like, holy shit.
You knew it was always a possibility.
But when that happened, you're like, oh, my God.
So I think the same thing, if they release a smoking gun that implicates someone, you know, take your pick.
And people are like, holy shit, he was doing that on the island or he was doing that with it.
I think that's when people are going to be like, okay, now this is real.
It's in front of me.
Now people are actually, they're not just pissed.
Now they're energized.
Now they're motivated.
I mean, I would like to see it.
I would like to.
I don't know if it exists.
And also again, like it's not a, it's, it's not a homogenous group of people that have an issue right now with the way Trump, the administration, is handling this.
Yes, there are some people who are super energized on the Israel stuff and all that.
I'm not one of those.
But there are also, I think a lot of people like me who, again, are not super invested in some of these narratives, but who have just found Trump's behavior and his administration's behavior and their PR so inexplicable and so obnoxious that we're riled up.
I think that I could be pacified if the PR strategy changed.
I really do.
If Trump were to come out and do like a full court press conference and he had Bondi and Patel and Kat and Bongino standing up there with him and he got real with the American people and dropped the snark and the anger and the condescension, I do think it could have an effect.
I'd be happy if they got rid of the IRS while the ATF.
Candace Owens mentioned that.
Just to take out the income tax.
Get rid of the Federal Reserve and all those things go away.
All the things.
Everybody talks about like get rid of this administration or this organization, this bureaucracy, that bureaucracy, get rid of the Fed and they all go away.
100%.
So what's the consensus?
Epstein kind of matters to normies?
Would you guys say that's fair?
No.
No.
Epstein doesn't, to the average person that's not politically, you know, politically involved and not even just politically involved, remember, because like this kind of stuff is kind of a niche thing.
But the average person, it doesn't matter.
Most people that watch, you know, that are, they would consider themselves normies that are into normal politics, this is a tertiary topic to them.
And for the very, very emotionally invested and committed minority, it's something that they're probably never going to be.
I disagree.
I think I agree with you about how it's not, it might not change people's votes, but I disagree that people, even normies, however you want to define that, care deeply about it, even on a surface level, even though they don't know anything beyond the story of Epstein being in jail for trafficking or Ghelane being in jail for trafficking as well.
I think they're like, this is emblematic of something that's horrible.
I mean, so many people have been abused as a child.
You know, this is something that unfortunately a ton of people can relate to.
You were talking about just hundreds of children rescued just like in the past few months.
And that's just two operations.
I think people see Epstein as some sort of face to something much bigger.
Not in maybe the sense I'm talking about big, like the deep state invisible network of things.
It's like a signifier of something larger than I think they can't let that go.
I don't think it'll change many votes.
Maybe it will.
We'll see how it goes.
Things are going to, I think we're far from done from this story, but I think people do really care.
The other thing, too, is that it also, maybe it has less of an effect on the faithful, so to speak, or the MAGA, but there are also a lot of moderates who take, to some degree, I think, take cues from MAGA.
In other words, like, well, look, even now Trump's people are thinking he's corrupt.
Even Trump's fans are turning on him.
There must be something here.
And so I have friends who are not Republicans.
They're not conservatives.
They're not right-wingers.
They're not Trump supporters.
But they could perhaps be induced to vote for him if they, you know, if the alternative was not to their taste.
But they're looking at this and they're like, wow, even his base is turning on him.
His base thinks that he might have had sex with minors and stuff.
This is ew, you know?
I think it could have an effect on his family.
You know, Phil always, go ahead.
A friend of mine just texts me and his name, we'll keep his name out of this, but he straight up said, I honestly can tell you that if I ask my brother who Jeffrey Epstein was, he would look at me with a deer and a headless look.
And he's as average an American as you can be.
So Phil.
I think we need to ask him who Jeffrey Epstein is.
I have so many different experiences, and I know I talk to a lot of different types of people, but like I do have normal people in my life who I don't talk about the moon or other things that certainly cares.
That's because they would stop talking to you.
A week ago?
They'd care more about me voting for Trump than they'd probably care about me not thinking the moon.
A week ago, and I agree with your friend's take on it, but when Shane Gillis got up there at the SPs in front of the whole country, that changes.
Trevase at the same time.
I think that the jokes that Shane Gillis made, first of all, they were great.
It was hilarious.
Second of all, I think that Epstein, the phrase, Epstein didn't kill himself, is a meme more than anything else.
And I think that it is an allegory for you can't believe what the government says, which that is a general consensus with the American people.
Most people are kind of like, well, you know, the government lies.
Everybody kind of has that kind of idea.
And so I think that the jokes that Shane Gillis were making or was making, I think those tap into that sentiment.
Yeah.
But I would say that it is a highly charged signifier, and it's becoming increasingly so for a larger idea of corruption, of our leaders and the elite being held to different standards than we are and of all these things.
And it's just going to become more and more highly charged until I feel like Trump tries to deal with this.
So I don't know.
That's my opinion.
I don't think that Trump can diffuse it.
I don't think so either.
And the reason I think that he can is because just of confirmation by and I think that perhaps maybe he could have diffused it, like I said, better if he had tackled this or had a better approach early on.
But he is in danger of falling into a kind of a PR death spiral.
I just want to see trials.
I want to see people close to Epstein get on stand and talk about it at length and be grilled about it.
No one's ever talked to Lex Wesner about why Epstein was given power.
She wants to talk.
Yeah, let her talk.
I mean, be skeptical of everything these people are saying.
But why hasn't anyone talked to Alex Wesner?
I want to know, when you mentioned Lex Wesner, I want more people to look into where Epstein was getting his money, where the money, why was he a billionaire?
That's a great point, that's a great point.
And this is another angle on why this is so deranged.
The judge looking into the strange money.
The reason I say that.
The reason I say that stuff is because the amounts of money that Jeffrey Epstein was spending and stuff, you can't hide that.
That isn't some, it's not like you, you, these kind of, there are financial statements.
There are definitely people that have given him that kind of money.
There's financing from banks.
All of that stuff is, you know, it's all, it can all be, what's the word I'm looking for?
They can all be subpoenaed and it can all be brought to light, possibly FOIA.
I'm not sure the details, but all of that information can be brought to light.
I don't know why there aren't journalists and people, even people that are in the, that would be in the quote unquote conspiracy space.
Why aren't they doing everything they can to get every bit of information about who was giving money to Epstein?
I mean, there are some things you could look up, like the Lex Wesner stuff, like why, I mean, Lex Wesner gave him power of attorney for 16 years.
So I was going to say in this bio that I read in Vanity Fair from 2003 or whatever, it got into this.
And apparently, now this could just be propaganda, but apparently, originally Epstein made his money by performing a service for billionaires where he specialized in getting the billionaire's financial house in order.
In other words, what he says in this article is that as people acquire more wealth, they tend to do it in a sort of disorganized fashion.
It's like you start off with a small house and then you keep adding on to it and you've got all this like kind of random stuff here and there.
And so he specialized in sort of taking all of the disparate aspects of a billionaire's financial matrix and sort of bringing it into line.
Now that could just be BS.
I know we're running out of time quickly.
I just want to say two things real quick.
One thing about the Vanity Fair thing, I think that's a completely compromised article.
Sure.
No, when they were talking, when that writer, what's her name?
Carter?
I don't remember her name.
She was looking into him and seeing all these connections and then finding out the allegations.
He threatened Vanity Fair.
Epstein threatened Vanity Fair.
There was a decapitated cat and a bullet left outside of Graydon Carter's apartment who was running Vanity Fair.
They totally took out everything bad, like really bad from the article, killed that story.
So, you know, that's bizarre.
That's huge.
That's conjugate, right?
And then what Phil's talking about with the money and finding that, there was an investigation into that.
It was in the courts.
They were looking into his Deutsche Bank, whatever's going on there.
Someone showed up to that house of that judge, dressed as a FedEx employee and assassinated her son.
You know, that's what I'm saying.
Like, you get close to this thing, they take your life or they destroy you in other ways.
And it's not everyone because, like, look, there's a billion podcasts talking about it all the time.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, so, Colonel Kurtz, do you have any last thoughts or anything on this?
Just I'm glad that this went better than my last visit here when I had to hold my hand over my eye the whole time.
I scratched my eye.
Yes, yes, much better.
So everybody, I'm glad to be here.
And yes, the shirt is a joke, y'all.
It's just some satire.
Don't crucify me over it.
But check out my channel.
I'm on all platforms, Colonel Kurtz99.
I focus mostly on MeToo hoaxes, but I get into politics, philosophy, all kinds of stuff.
I've had Kurtz on my show.
We've had great conversations.
I've been on your show a bunch.
Love talking to you.
It's always fun.
This is fun.
Thank you guys.
I'm glad my bots were going up.
No, I'm just kidding, Phil.
I did not do that.
You can find me at Inverted World Live on YouTube and Rumble every night, Monday through Thursday at 10 o'clock p.m. Eastern Time.
Again, last night we had a great conversation with 6-7-Kevin and his documentary that's coming out on this channel on Rumble on Monday.
It's incredible.
So find me there.
You can find me at Shane Cashman Everywhere Else Online.
Yeah, I will second that.
Documentary.
I mean, we were talking about Epstein, all the human trafficking.
It hasn't gone away with Epstein.
It's still very much a problem when it comes to mass migration to the United States.
That gets touched on in the documentary.
Rumble, 6 p.m. on this channel.
You can watch it, 6 p.m. on Monday.
Watch the documentary.
My name is Kellen.
You guys can follow me at KellenPDL.
Thank you guys for having me on the panel today.
Shout out, Tate, for producing.
Yeah, thanks, guys.
I am Phil That Remains on Twix.
You can send me all of your upset tweets there.
And make sure that you appreciate you doing such a great job.
This is so much fun.
It's just a great conversation.
Make sure that you all come back right here tonight at 8 p.m. for Timcast IRL Live.
I will be hosting because Tim is away doing personal things, but we would love to have you.
