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May 30, 2025 - The Culture War - Tim Pool

02:56:35

Why Men Are LEAVING The Left, Society's ATTACK On Masculinity w/ Kyla Turner & Nacho

BUY CAST BREW COFFEE TO SUPPORT THE SHOW - https://castbrew.com/ Become A Member And Protect Our Work at http://www.timcast.com Host: Tim Pool @Timcast (everywhere) Guest: Nacho @AmericanNachos (X) Kyla Turner @notsoErudite (X) Producers: Lisa Elizabeth @LisaElizabeth (X) Kellen Leeson @KellenPDL (X) My Second Channel - https://www.youtube.com/timcastnews Podcast Channel - https://www.youtube.com/TimcastIRL

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Speaker	Time	Text
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Young men still seem to like the guy.
		So what is the phenomenon?
		Driving people.
		Younger men, particularly, away from the left and into the hands of conservatives.
		We're going to have that debate.
		So we got a couple of guests joining us tonight to have that, joining, it's not tonight, it's the morning, joining us this morning to talk about it.
		Ma 'am, would you like to introduce yourself?
unidentified		Yeah, my name is Kyla.
		You can find me everywhere at NotSoErdite.
		I do streaming and stuff.
		I typically talk about gender, so it's a good topic for me.
		Oh, gender.
		And kind of like sociocultural commentary.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All right, sir, who are you?
unidentified		I'm an American Nacho.
		I'm a Christian, conservative, husband, father.
		I work full-time supporting my beautiful stay-at-home wife in our two recent editions.
		And I stream video games and politics as more of like a hobby.
		you could say like a mover and shaker in some of the political communities.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right on.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		To start, I think we're in agreement that young men are moving to the right.
unidentified		I think if you're denying that, you're just denying data.
unidentified		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, Vox, Washington Post.
		Everybody's bringing it up.
		I think the question is why, but you agree young men are going rightward.
		So I guess, is there a disagreement on why it's happening, or do we actually agree why it's happening?
		What's your view on why young men are...
unidentified		I think as a liberal, I'll be very clear, I am liberal.
		And I spent the last several months being asked this question by liberals and Democrats.
		I think the answer is that the left kind of hates and fears masculinity broadly.
		I think it doesn't like it.
		And I think you can see that in the fact, I don't know if you know this, the APA, it's the American Psychiatric Association.
		This year they came up with rules and guides about how to treat men in therapy differently than women and like tricks and stuff that they need to be aware of.
		Right.
		And it's like shouldn't be like 2025 where we're coming out with this stuff.
		I think the left has just broadly neglected the male issue because it's been.
		Not politically correct to talk about.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And what say you, sir?
unidentified		Do you agree with that?
		To some degree, yeah.
		I think men are moving to the right because men are more rational than women.
		Young men are shifting away because left-wing ideologies.
		They feel kind of disconnected from reality.
		We're living in a society where we're having economic stresses, we're having geopolitical stresses, and men are seeking pragmatic solutions to economic and social changes, valuing free expression and preferring empowerment over this collective guilt that seems to be following us around like a cloud.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		I—what would you say to that before I jump in?
		He said— Men are more rational than women.
		Yeah, and liberal ideologies are—how did you describe it?
		Not rational or not?
unidentified		Yeah, they seem—it seems like—it seems like young men are experiencing sort of like a disconnect from, like, left-wing political narratives.
		Like, it's not like—they don't make sense to especially young men.
		And even older men, like myself, like, starting a family, I'm looking at what world my— Yeah, when I look at young men and young women especially, I think most people are not very rational.
		I don't really give rational points to most people or most voters in general.
		I think women are, like, influenced a lot, whether they like it or not, by things like hormones, right?
		I think women's, like, hormonal fluctuation is daily.
		are monthly, but at the same time, But then you'll see men like punching holes in walls and like doing crime.
		And so this argument that like men are just more rational than women.
		It's like, well, no, like different emotional systems and different arguments appeal to each of these groups because each of these groups are fundamentally self-interested.
		And I think what's failed on the left is to make any appeal to anything for young men.
		The left hasn't offered young men anything.
		There's nothing that would be appealing to a young man when you look at left policy.
		But there's lots of things that are appealing to young women.
		And so I think if Democrats want to talk to young men, they have to talk to young men.
		But I don't I don't think it falls as simply down to like rational versus irrational.
		I think that's like a flattening of the nuance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think that modern liberal orthodoxy is antithetical to masculinity and that the the men who remain on the liberal side are largely what we call and I quote.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are y 'all familiar with that term?
unidentified		Yep.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you familiar with sneaky fucker?
unidentified		Laid out for me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So in biology, there are some species, there's an example of one fish where there are two different types of males, large and small.
		The large male...
		earns favor with the females by being strong and powerful.
unidentified		Oh, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The sneaky fucker goes in the middle of the night and inseminates the eggs and flees.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so, largely, I see what you're saying.
		And my view is, obviously not absolute.
		There's a lot of men who actually are into leftist liberal ideology.
		I'm just saying, I think it's a generality, that an ideology that...
		The orthodoxy focuses on oppressors, who has the power, is going to be antithetical to a man who is seeking to empower himself and become strong.
		And then what you end up with is, among millennials, the data in 2018 was that 70% of millennial women were Democrat, 30% were conservative, and 55% of millennial men were conservative and 45% were Democrat.
		The data probably changed, but I think you get a large portion of weaker males Males who find their path towards, I guess, sexual marketplace success in being the male feminist pandering to women, telling them what they want to hear so that they can earn favor, whereas the other guys are defiant dude bros chest bumping.
		And that's an exaggeration, but that's, you know, you get the idea.
unidentified		Yeah, I think there's something.
		So, like, the sneaky fucker is very fun.
		In evo human psych, there's not, like, a ton of evidence for this.
		It's like a mating strategy.
		It's more like birds that do this.
		But this idea that I think is actually more true, that I think is more grounded on reality that we're talking about is this idea that essentially for you to perform well as a man in the liberal space, there has to be a certain level of like castigation you have to do toward masculinity and like a promotion of femininity that's almost exclusively performative.
		Right.
		Especially because as a woman, I wouldn't say liberals are like inherently better at like certain forms of sexism.
		Right.
		Like there's a lot of times where I feel like just my existence, I just don't get respected as much like at a default, even in liberal spaces.
		And so what I think happens is there's a lot of performativity.
		And in the case of on the left, we've had this issue where if you want to be left coded and by left coded, I mean perform.
		You've got the language, usually some aesthetic, right?
		I appear more left than I appear right.
		I've got like a choker on and whatnot.
		In all these ways, if you want to perform left, you have to do some level of service to femininity.
		And if you're going to talk about masculinity, you have to caveat and couch it within these other things.
		That's how I kind of view it, which if you're a young man, you're just like, what the fuck?
		Where am I?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maybe that's a good way to put it.
		It's just easier to be on the right.
		have to do a whole lot.
		You could sit around eating chicken wings as long as you're talking about football and you don't say weird leftist things.
		The right's going to be okay with you.
unidentified		Yeah, that's one thing that I always wanted to point out too is that I think that, you know, they're moving right because at least the right is listening or at the very least, they're just like cool with it.
		You know what I mean?
		Like you're saying, you can just sit on the couch and hang out with the bros a little bit to a degree.
		When you're disagreeing with right wingers, They're not going to destroy your lives because you have a disagreement.
		So you're both maybe on the right, but I'm probably a little more farther right, or you're a little closer to the center.
		You're not going to be ostracized for this.
		On the left, you have like a large shift going extreme left.
		And these people are like tearing down even their own.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think that the Democrat Party and left currently is actually kind of fighting with its And the reason for it is you get a lot of people on the right and they say that wokeness is critical race theory, critical gender theory, Marxist.
		That's not correct.
		While that is a large component of liberal orthodoxy, support for Ukraine does not fall into that.
		People try to shoehorn it in by saying, oh, but Ukraine is the weaker being oppressed by the Russians.
		And I'm like, that doesn't explain NATO expansionism.
		NATO expansionism is not the – Russia is small compared to NATO.
		NATO is encroaching on Russian space.
		There's a big debate over that.
		So the oppressor oppresses it make sense there.
		Islam being the second biggest religion in the world and a strong theocratic fundamentalist militaristic religion also doesn't quite make sense.
		It is the adherence to the modern liberal orthodoxy, which is relatively amorphous.
		And so I pulled up.
		Just this real quick example.
		The Four Lights from Star Trek.
		Are you guys familiar with the Four Lights?
unidentified		I'm not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Star Trek The Next Generation, Captain Picard.
		Oh, everybody's not a Trekkie.
		He is groaning.
		Don't care.
		Captain Picard is captured by an enemy faction.
		He's brought into a torture room where the enemy commander has four lights above him and he says, how many lights do you see?
		And Picard says, four.
		And then he gets electrocuted.
		And he says, you are incorrect.
		There are five lights.
		And now, how many lights do you see?
		And Picard says, four.
		He gets electrocuted again.
		And the whole episode basically finally ends with him screaming in the face of the commander, there are four lights, which becomes a cultural meme, especially among millennials and those who watch The Next Generation and grew up with it.
		The captain refused to bow to a false reality he was being forced to through pain of punishment.
		That's how I view a lot of younger guys and a lot of people on the right, a lot of post-liberals, former liberals, whatever.
		The left is demanding.
		You adhere to things that are completely false.
		Otherwise, they will cause you pain.
		They will take your job.
		You will be kicked out of social circles.
		The right has no such precepts.
		Now, I would also put a timeline on this.
unidentified		I think it's really important to look at a timeline.
		So I was actually watching your conversation with Bill Maher.
		Oh, Bill Maher.
		How do you pronounce his last name?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maher, I guess.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maher.
unidentified		Maher?
		Send it, yeah.
		And he pointed out to you something that I think is really important, where he talked about like, well, yeah, the left and the right, when we're talking about it from like 2016 to now, I think I agree broadly with your narrative.
		I might not use like all the same language.
		Like I don't call it cult, like I call it religious.
		I think it's like fundamentally religious in like performance, which not all religions are cults, right?
		Because like the left isn't making you like abandon your family necessarily.
		They're making you fight with your family.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, I got to pause you there.
unidentified		They're not making you a bad in your family.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Prominent left personalities have said, cut off your family.
		Even on MSNBC, they've said, don't show up to Thanksgiving.
		Was it Jen Psaki who was like, don't go to Thanksgiving with your family if they support Trump or something?
		Maybe it wasn't her.
		But this is MSNBC.
unidentified		Sure, I imagine that there are And honestly, I followed a little bit more of your kind of line.
		I actually followed you a lot more in like 2018 because I was also like coming from the left.
		Around 2016, getting into politics when I started a family and stuff.
		You saw a wave of people getting, you know, all this pushback saying not to, just what you're saying, not to talk to your family.
		All these videos, you know.
		And then now, again, you're seeing the same thing on TikTok.
		Waves of them after the election.
		I stopped talking to my family because they voted for X. Sure, but we don't use like, we have to be really cautious, right?
		So as somebody who's on the left, right, who is friends with lots of people on the left, grew up fundamentalist right, by the way.
		I don't cut off anyone in my life.
		I have lots of conservative family.
		I would never cut them off.
		I'm very close to my neighbor who is a dogged We're talking in general.
		This is my argument, right?
		There are loud, squeaky wheels that we need to do on the left a better job of policing.
		It is better if the left goes, hold on, that's crazy.
		Okay, we don't agree with this.
		The left's problem is that we don't kick out our extreme left, not that the extreme left represents the broad group.
		The problem with the left, especially my side, is that we're kind of cowardly and soft and status quo, and so we don't speak up to our extreme fringe right.
		Which is why the far-left progressives have so much more ability to speak, despite the fact that their actual functional policies are only pretty weakly represented within the Democratic polity.
		The Biden-Obama party is the strong party within the Democrat party.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So how do you define what left means?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does it mean to be on the left?
unidentified		I mean, it's, like, spectrumal, right?
		But, like, essentially, you're probably going to be pro-welfare state.
		You're probably going to be pro, like, trans, gay, LGBTQ.
		So you're going to be, like, economically and socially left, by and large.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But you use left in the definition.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So pro-trans?
unidentified		Sure.
		So, yeah, when I say—I use left in the definition because I think we know.
		But, like, when I say socially left, it's usually, like, you're— Chill with gay people getting married.
		You don't really care if trans people exist.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean, you don't care if trans people exist?
unidentified		Like, you're probably going to support them transitioning, things like that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
unidentified		Economic.
		Left would be welfare state.
		You're going to be pro-social safety net, and you're probably going to be pro-regulation of the market.
		These are typically what we view as left policies.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What about, I mean, there are people on the right that are trans themselves, are pro- They're pro-welfare state.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're moderate on abortion, but they're still called right.
unidentified		Well, there's kind of two problems.
		One is that politics has devolved...
		I'm obviously not right.
		So if you want to have...
		And so whichever one you want me to speak to, I can.
		In my group, I would say, I'm not sure.
		You're probably somewhere politically on the spectrum on moderate, maybe shifting right.
		I don't know all of your policies necessarily, but you'd probably be somewhere in the moderate center space.
		But performatively, they're going to feel like you're demonstrably right-wing, particularly if your audience is demonstrably right-wing.
		The way that I...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So let's start here.
		We're talking about young men wanting to adhere to reality.
		They're tired of being told there are five lights when there are four.
		And the trans issue is a really great example.
		It relates to the broader political correctness.
		But you can't get your average left liberal, I mean both, Even a member of Congress to define woman.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If you're a young guy entering the political space and you see an interaction where a woman says to another woman in Congress, what is a woman?
		Well, I'm not a biologist.
		I can't answer that.
		You're a young guy going, what the fuck?
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Now, I think for young women, they're saying don't – like I think women are motivated by social hierarchy and social order.
		Women are subject-oriented on average.
		Men are object-oriented on average.
		So that's why I think we get this divide.
		Young men say, that is insane, whereas women say, you're speaking out against the group, against the collective.
unidentified		Well, and it's a bit of a joke, too, to say men are more rational.
		But it is true that men are more pragmatic.
		They're more based in logic and reason.
		and women can operate a little more emotionally.
		And so I think they're...
		I've had discussions with close female friends of mine, and we have children, and we're discussing things like this.
		And they're also afraid of what their children are going to grow up in, what their children are going to be taught, because the leaders of society can't even define what things are based off of what you're saying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Pure inconsistencies like...
		And so when you ask, like, what's the logic of telling children they can't permanently alter their bodies when they're minors, except in this one instance?
		Additionally, you said that one of the things about being left is you're gonna be okay with transition and things like this then you have the Why is this the one DSM-5 disorder that we affirm and the others we don't?
		And there's no answers for this.
unidentified		Well, there is an answer.
unidentified		It's because transition seems to reduce suicidality by 60%.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		False.
unidentified		It's not false.
unidentified		This is like repeated.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Define suicidality.
unidentified		Suicidality is in attempts.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's incorrect.
unidentified		It's not incorrect.
unidentified		This is unquestionable.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Chase, what was the Supreme Court argument from the ACLU?
		Did you listen to that?
		The ACLU's lawyer said, in fact, it does not.
		To the Supreme Court.
		And so what we look at is, here's where I'm at.
		Don't know, don't care about whatever the DSM mental disorder is, be anorexia, bulimia, pica, don't care.
		What's the treatment?
		We find that the existing scientific research says that desistance rates, not detransition, desistance, where a child who is trans entering puberty simply desists from being trans is greater than chance.
		Some estimates between 65 to 90 percent.
		Suicidal ideation is around 37% to 40% among people who do transition.
		That would imply there is a greater possibility to reduce suicidal ideation by not intervening with medical treatment.
unidentified		And the other option is actually to affirm the birth-given gender.
		I tried to look up some studies for this.
		And I don't think there's ever been any studies done where they're specifically on people who have body dysmorphia or trans, you know, ideology or whatever, and think they're another gender and are trying to transition being given the like testosterone, if they're male and estrogen, if they're female.
		But there are studies that have been done that are given to patients who have depression.
		And there's, I'm pretty sure there's a handful of studies that were double blind where they give them testosterone or testosterone.
		So this is where I want to go back to this timeline conversation, right?
		I'm not here interested in defending the crazy left.
		Most of my career was spent fighting them, right?
		I fought most of these people most of my career because I believe that if the left wants to represent anything, they need to have a strong back.
		They need to believe in something and they need to kick out their extremists, right?
		And I think that the left failed to do that.
		The issue is that a lot of people are looking at the left and right and they're looking 2016 to now and they're not looking.
		Yeah, but you would consider yourself to be probably in support of that position, right?
		Which position?
		About gender-affirming care.
		It depends on what you mean when you say gender care.
		For children, specifically.
		By and large, I'm pretty skeptical about the process by which we properly evaluate children.
		You would generally support it, though, right?
		If it's managed better right now, I think it's too experimental.
		But you separate yourself from the extreme left.
		And as more of a layperson, sort of on the right, that's extreme left to me.
		What do I mean?
		Yeah, even considering...
		Right?
		Like, the issue is that, like, we can talk about the far left, and I'm probably just going to agree with you that there's a lot of crazies.
		The timeline conversation that we need to have is we need to remember what it was like from like 1990 to 2016 when the right had a lot of strong cultural war.
		I remember growing up in a very conservative idea where evolution was viewed as evil and bad and anti-human.
		This is an anti-science perspective that was dominant on the right.
		And it feels like we've forgotten about this.
		I grew up in a school where parents were advocating to remove any mention of evolution, any mention of adaptions over time.
		they just wanted to basically cut out a large portion of biological science.
		And so while I agree that the left won the culture war in 2016, well, they canceled their And they did a lot of bad stuff.
		And they went too far.
		I would just agree with that.
		The issue is that I'm still fundamentally left because my principles and my policies fall left.
		And I believe in a party, whatever party it is, that stands up for those things that I value.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which specific, like, so outside of the crazy left stuff, what particularly would you look for in a party?
unidentified		Strong institutions.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
unidentified		Strong institutions means institutions that are effective, that are power balanced, and are reactive with speed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Does this mean, like, the FBI?
		Or the Federal Reserve?
		Like, what institutions do you mean?
unidentified		Most of them.
		So, like, most of the institutions that I think that we have erected are, by and large, pretty good.
		I think there's good reason for them, though I don't know all of them.
		Sure, but I don't know, like, all of the history for it.
		I'm willing to basically grant that I'm not smarter than, like, 200 years of American institutional development to just assume that I know better than the FBI necessarily, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm just—I'm not trying to—it's not a gotcha.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, like, when you say the institutions, does it mean universities?
unidentified		Does it mean the post— Universities, health care, the three branches of the government, the central banking, the— Central banking, wow.
		Yeah, the NGO that exists to kind of like counterbalance and third-party check certain things.
		So when I talk about the institutions, I'm talking broadly about most of the institutions.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but I think you recognize many of them grow corrupt over a long period of time, right?
unidentified		Right, so this would be my counter.
		On the left, we say strong institutions, and the problem is that I think a lot of them have become rigid.
		And I don't know if you know much about metalsmithing, but there's a site-Very little.
		It needs to be both flexible and strong.
		So if it's too hard and not flexible, it'll break, right?
		And if it's too flexible but not hard enough, it'll bend.
		And so when I say strong institutions, I mean basically the properly crafted sword.
		It needs to be flexible enough to react to stuff, which I think proceduralism has killed our flexibility, but it needs to be strong enough to withstand people who might want to attack the Constitution, people who might want to be corrupt, which everyone, most people that enter politics are probably somewhat corrupt to some degree, right?
		It needs to be able to withstand these things with the assumption of what incentive structures do to human nature.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So who did you vote for in 2024?
unidentified		I'm not American, so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're not American?
unidentified		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're Canadian?
unidentified		I'm Canadian.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		All these Canadians coming to our country trying to influence our politics.
unidentified		True.
unidentified		I do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Who did you vote for in Canada?
		Trudeau?
unidentified		I didn't vote in this last election because I haven't been in the country for almost two years.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ah, okay.
unidentified		Before that was Aaron O'Toole, who's a conservative.
		Before that was...
		Yep, I vote all in Canada.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We don't have this like.
unidentified		Well, we have like six, right?
		We just, it's less culturally baked in that like if you're, Like, most people in Canada will vote, like, maybe NDP locally.
		At a provincial level, they might vote, like, liberal.
		And then at a federal level, they might vote, like, something else, right?
		Like, that's pretty standard in Canada.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So U.S.-wise, you would probably still find yourself aligned with the Democratic Party?
unidentified		Yeah, theoretically, if I had been able to vote and I was American, I probably would have voted for Congress.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is what I can't understand.
		I mean, by all means, criticize the Trump administration, whatever, I don't care.
		Obama administration.
		I'm not going to speak to anyone before.
		Like Bill Clinton, I can say very little about.
		I was a child.
		But I can say that Bush sucked and violated the Constitution.
		Obama sucked and violated the Constitution.
		And we can go into great detail how.
		And Joe Biden and his administration was probably the most egregious violation of constitutional norms in our institutions that I've ever seen in my life.
unidentified		Sure.
		And then now we have like 2024.
		Trump, who I would argue is like also violating the Constitution, like pretty openly.
		And so I guess my question to you would be, First of all, if I was an American, I'd be voting in my midterms and my primaries and my locals, right?
		Not just my federal, which most people don't even do.
		Most people that complain about their politics don't even vote at their primaries, which is how you get the nuance in your own party.
		If you're mad, like this is what I say to leftists, if you're mad that the Democrats don't represent you, vote in your primaries.
		If you're not voting in your primaries, you'll never get represented at a federal level.
		Like, what are you even talking about?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's a word for this when someone believes in voting to change things that the left uses.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I forgot what it was.
unidentified		Probably a stupid liberal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's like, no, it's like votarian or like, it's some word like that, voterist or something, a person who believes that voting will change a system.
unidentified		I believe in democracy, right?
		And I think democracy is the best system we've arrived at thus far.
		Not because I think democracy is a fundamental good, or capitalism.
		I think that they are two systems that we have created that take incentive structures that almost make people always do bad shit, power, money, greed.
		And it has, with those incentive structures, made the best country with the most human rights and the most flourishing in all of human history.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But we aren't a democracy.
unidentified		We are a democracy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The United States is a constitutional republic with democratically elected representatives.
unidentified		Do you know why the founders said a constitutional republic?
unidentified		Because a liberal democracy wasn't a term that was invented yet.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Liberal democracy is like a semantic term historically to represent countries that function with some kind of electoral organization.
unidentified		So is a constitutional republic.
		Because if you look back at the constitutional republic and what they describe, it later became what we know now as a liberal democracy.
		The reason that the founding fathers, like Hamilton and Madison, who are the people writing on this in the original letters, the reason that they explicitly talk about not using the word democracy is because when they think of democracy, they thought of the Greeks.
		And they're like, well, we don't want some crazy vote by population.
		Democracy.
		We don't like that thing.
		We want something that is more like essentially what we have now, which is a liberal democracy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Publicanism.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Various jurisdictions who send an elected representative to go and represent the interests of the area.
unidentified		Sure.
		The issue is that we just do have a democracy.
		Fundamentally, if in every way we're functioning as a democracy, we're acting as a democracy, we're voting, then at some point we have to call the duck a duck.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Except Congress does not enact policy based on the will of the people.
		That's a fact.
		It's usually the will of the wealthy and the elite, which is what the Founding Fathers intended, which is why the 17th Amendment got ratified in the early 1900s.
		Because the original idea of how senators were sent to Congress at the federal level was that your state reps would choose to represent the state.
		So you would vote for a state rep who would then, in their own council, say, we want our state senator to be that guy over there, and no one had a say in it.
		So in the early 1900s, they were like, hey, the problem That's a fact.
		They're sending cronies.
		So we're going to change this.
		I don't actually agree.
		I think they did it because it allowed the subversion of state choice, state authority.
		But the general idea among the founding fathers was that we needed, quote, better men to decide for the public, not a democracy.
unidentified		Right.
		This is why you have the Electoral College in the first place.
		This is why I tell people, vote in your primaries.
		But this is a democracy, right?
		Just because you vote for an elected and then that elected gets to make decisions on your behalf.
		This is still fundamentally, in every way, democracy, right?
		The function of a democracy is that the will of the people transfer their authority and their power to an elect who then speaks for them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And we can talk about whether or not the people who speak for them Do you think in the past 100 years the US government has actually enacted policies at the will of the American people?
unidentified		By and large, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think the data shows us that the answer is no, they don't.
		There was the Plutonomy article from Citibank 14 years ago where Citibank drafted this internal paper to be shared with a bunch of financial interests saying the United States is not a democracy.
		it is a plutonomy where the wealthy control the political class, and the political class enacts the interests of the wealthy elite.
		I think that's actually fascinating because They represent the lobbyists, the corporations.
unidentified		That's because you were mixing me up with, like, far-left people.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm not mixing you up.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying it's interesting that you would assert that when the left liberal occupy Wall Street, the moderate, largely view corporations as unduly influencing our political system.
unidentified		I think most people would agree, though.
		Like, the issue is that...
		Just because there is corruption, it doesn't mean that democracy isn't occurring, necessarily.
		We can definitely say corruption is happening and there's something that needs to be done about it, but essentially my question would be, what's the alternative?
		Do you want America not to be a democracy?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, I guess the issue is how you define the phrase democracy, right?
unidentified		Do you want to take away people's right to vote?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Again, all people everywhere all the time.
		Do we want to put certain restrictions on voting?
		Do we want to open up voting to literally anybody?
unidentified		I'm asking you.
		I genuinely don't know your position.
		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So when you say, do you want to take away people's right to vote?
		What's going to happen is there going to be a semantic manipulation on the left where they say people means everyone.
		And then what you'll get on the right is something like.
		They're going to vote for their families back home.
		Why wouldn't they?
		I expect them to vote for their families, right?
unidentified		Sure.
		And I would agree that there should be, like, some limits on who gets to vote, right?
		This is why I think citizenship is a really good standard by which who gets to vote, right?
		There's also even a good question like should expats get to vote?
		If you haven't been in the country for 30 years, even though you're still a citizen, what's your like...
		You pay taxes, yeah.
		Americans do.
		expat Americans do.
		I don't know the answer to this, right?
		So I'm willing to grant that there should be limitations to who votes.
		My question to you is still, essentially, are you opposed to America being a democracy?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Again, it depends on what you mean by democracy.
unidentified		A transfer of the people of power to an elected official who then does their will.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love it.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		What do you want that to look like?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Not like it looks now, to be completely honest.
unidentified		That's fine.
unidentified		But what do you want it to look like?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like a person goes for the people, has a conversation over what the representative block wants to see happen in their various political structures, be it at the state level, local, city, or otherwise.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Those individuals go and then enact the will of their voter base and to the best interest they possibly could.
unidentified		Without the pit stop at the NGO.
		Agreed.
		Yep.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And not having luxury steak dinners or being flown on private jets or going on boats and all that stuff.
unidentified		Sure.
		Okay, so we should get money out of politics, like by and large.
		Agreed.
		Okay, so I would totally agree with you.
		Like, carry committees are the worst thing ever that happened.
		And the problem is that now we have a Molox game, right?
		This is the big issue with politics, is that when, and this is my biggest criticism of the carry committee, is that essentially one, sorry, just to make sure everyone is aware of what a carry committee is and stuff like that.
		Not aware.
		Okay, just want to make sure.
		And it's fine.
		You don't need to know esoteric words.
		It's not a gotcha.
		So a carry committee is essentially what we call like a super PAC.
		It's usually going to be a combination of, sometimes it'll be a non-profit or a charity, a C4 and a C3.
		And sometimes there'll be some other little fun things thrown in there, but that's essentially what it is.
		And it essentially, this combination of things allows infinite donations, some of them, most of them, which can be hidden into who does it because they would be a C3, right?
		Which means that they're bipartisan.
		They usually are not bipartisan.
		And this is true on both sides, just so it's clear.
		Both sides are doing this.
		So carry committees get introduced.
		And the problem now is that if you want to run for federal office ever, You must participate in the evil thing that you despise, because if you don't, you will be limited in how much money you can raise, and the reality is that money does make elections work, which is gross, but how are you going to get your ads out?
		How are you going to pay for your tour?
		How are you going to pay for your staffers?
		How are you going to pay for your flyers?
		Right?
		So money has to be infused to some degree in a democracy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's no way not to do it.
unidentified		Exactly.
		And so then this issue goes, okay, well, if everyone, even if they want to play the game, Even if we've got Jesus, okay?
		Jesus comes down and he's going to become a politician, which I would argue he would never do.
		But say he does.
		I'd vote for him.
		Jesus, me too.
		I would vote the fuck for Jesus, okay?
		The question is, Jesus also will have to have a carry committee.
		This is the Moloch's game, where essentially, once the bad thing is in play, if you don't participate, you don't get to play at all.
		And so now we have this issue where we already have a bad thing, in this case, just the carry committee, and both Both sides have to participate.
		And the issue is, now there's no incentive to get rid of it, because nobody's going to canvass and, like, promote themselves on saying, I'm anti-carry committee, because if they do, they will get no funding.
		Isn't this kind of part of the problem, though?
		If we're trying to figure out why men are leaving the left, we're not able to have a conversation like this with most people on the left, to be honest.
		Currently, there's no evidence that shows that the Democratic Party is interested in having people like that represent them.
		The people that they're supporting, the Parkers, the Harry Sissons, the Deans, all that stuff.
		Just recently, they put up that lady Olivia Giuliani or whatever that was going around on X. There's no evidence that they're even willing to concede on any of their positions.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let me tell you, so we did a live event for the show, and we're planning a series of live shows.
		That was our pilot.
		We're trying to figure out how it works.
		I can tweet who wants to come and debate on the culture war, and on the right, you'll get...
		I'll get a text from Charlie Kirk saying, I'd love to find some dates that work.
		On the left, they say, contact my agent and we'll give you our rates.
		Then if we, a few people I'll give credit to, the Krasensteins, as much as, you know, there's contention between our opinions.
unidentified		They're fun to make fun of.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		But I respect that they've come on the show.
		They've said, let us know when you have dates.
		We'd love to be a part of the conversation.
		And I, very few people, you, very few people want to do these things.
		And so that makes it impossible.
		I think the reason why is the fear that if you defy the orthodoxy, you'll be excommunicated.
unidentified		Yep, they're right.
		Dean is fully audience captured.
		I mean, his friend Harry Sisson.
		It's crazy.
		I'm sure he did, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, he got scared.
unidentified		They all do, though.
		And that's what I was going to bring up, too, in regard to all of them.
		I think a big problem, too, is that this new TikTok culture, like you're saying, has them.
		Audience captured, and what is the audience on TikTok?
		TikTok is largely designed for women.
		It's got to be left-leaning.
		It's a lot of female users, more than any other app, I'm pretty sure.
		Yeah, anytime I defend feminism, I do well.
		Anytime I defend men, not so good.
		So, yeah, so, I mean, so these platforms are shaping these young influencers, and then they're terrified to go anywhere without their mute button.
		Sure, but there's, like...
		Because you've got to talk about China and all these other blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
		This goes back to my timeline, right?
		Which is essentially for me to say, do I think the left fucked up by letting the progressives win the culture war?
		Yes, I think they did, because I don't think the progressives actually represent most people.
		And now, unfortunately, they've convinced a bunch of young, stupid kids that they do.
		And so a bunch of kids put, like, a black box in their Instagram to pretend that they care about black people, but they still find, like, the unk biking down the highway with, like, loud music annoying and stuff like that, right?
		Like in all ways there's this performance that I think has ransacked the left in a way that I think is repugnant.
		The issue is that I'm, And the reason that I am left is because when I go all the way back and I look at the systems that I believe in, I fundamentally keep falling left.
		I just fundamentally do.
		And so then the only question is, I guess I have to fight for what I believe in within the group, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I, my opinion is that, uh, Nope, because I don't believe in what I think Trump advocates for.
unidentified		Like I fundamentally think that Trump doesn't reflect my values.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you have in the Trump coalition, RFK jr.
		Which is a predominantly left health worldview that was dominant for decades.
		That is, uh, you know, people criticize him on vaccine stuff, but he's been pro vaccine the whole time, even recommending the MMR vaccine.
		The health craze was a left culture war my whole life until these past several years.
		had abandoned it and started siding with weird corporate interests on foodstuffs.
unidentified		Yeah, partisan hacks are bad.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Tulsi Gabbard is anti-military industrial complex, anti-interventionist, and anti-regime change, which has been a position to the left my whole life.
		And so I look at Donald Trump and he says, we want a border barrier.
		That was Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders'position even up to 2016.
		And so looking at what Donald Trump is offering, he's moderate on abortion to the chagrin of conservatives.
		He's got left-coded anti-war, which is not left anymore.
		I don't know.
		Now they're pro-war, I guess, pro-war with Ukraine.
		Donald Trump may be moderate right-leaning on a lot of issues, and he's built a moderate left-leaning coalition that satisfies a lot of my liberal policy views.
		So it makes literally no sense, in my opinion, then, for someone to defend the president of I don't know.
		Yeah, they arrested Trump's lawyers.
		That's unconstitutional.
		That's like an egregious violation of institutions and norms in this country.
		And they did it in numerous states.
		They falsely accused Trump of several crimes.
		They violated statute of limitations.
		Now you've got Letitia James falsely accusing Trump of mortgage fraud for paperwork he didn't even handle.
		And what I view as the divide between left and right, once again, going back to why young men are leaving, this is what I was saying to Bill Maher.
		You are left or right not based on your policy views.
		You are left or right based on what you believe to be true.
		And Bill agreed, despite the fact that we believe different things.
		So, for instance, he said, yeah, Trump wasn't a Russian agent, but he was certainly working with the Russians, and he lied.
		And when I brought up the Ukraine scandal, he didn't know about it.
		He did not know that in 2017, Politico reported, at the same time as they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia, Ukraine and the Democrats were literally colluding to assist Hillary Clinton to win, and it backfired, and it caused problems.
		We had Hunter Avalon on Tim Kest IRL, and when I pointed out that Joe Biden said, quote, if you don't fire the prosecutor, you're not getting a billion dollars.
		He immediately smirked and said, it never happened.
		And I played the video for him and he was like, no idea that it happened.
		So what I typically run into is liberals tend not to know what's going on in the world.
		And probably the reason why they're scared to do shows is because they default to, I didn't know that.
		And so we've even offered up friendly, certain friendly liberal personalities.
		I'll leave their name out of it because I'm not going to try and drag them.
		You know, dirtbag leftist types.
		They're anti-woke, but they're leftist politically.
		They cancel on us all the time because they know they're going to sit down and they're going to end up sounding like Alex Jones.
		I'm going to pull up an article from the New York Times that says a Ukraine court ruled that they illegally interfered in the U.S. election to aid the Democrats, and they're going to have to reconcile with that and say, yes, that happened.
		But then when they go back to their Democrat circles, they're going to say, how dare you make that claim?
unidentified		Well, I was actually like a Yang Gang kind of guy leading up to the 2020 election.
		And something that turned me back towards Trump was, just like you're saying, I started seeing all these articles.
		A couple of them I think you covered on your show.
		Remember the one about, there's a video of Trump.
		There may or may not be a video of Trump in an elevator.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love that one, dude.
unidentified		It's like the most bizarre headline I've ever heard.
		It's a great one.
		Then another one was...
		There were great people on both sides.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Come on.
		Huffington Post.
		A tape might exist of Trump doing something in an elevator.
		Though exactly where that somewhere is and what that something might be, no one in media can say.
		That's because no one in media seems to have seen the tape or is even confident it exists.
		Yo, Huffington Post literally wrote an article about Trump may or may not have done something that may have been recorded.
		We don't know if it was recorded.
		We don't know what it is.
unidentified		Yep.
		And then my top three, those are my three favorite ones.
		That one, there were good people on both sides, and then Trump puts ketchup on his steak.
		And that one hit home for me because I grew up dirt poor.
		There's eight kids in my family.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's try this one.
unidentified		I put ketchup on my steak because we were eating cheap steak.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm actually going to make the bet you'll get it right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Did Donald Trump call white supremacists fine people?
unidentified		I don't think so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What did he say?
unidentified		I can't remember.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I just like – my assumption is that it's clip-aided because most things about Trump are – Joe Biden launched his 2020 campaign claiming that Donald Trump called white supremacists fine people, which he never did.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's fake.
unidentified		And the video – What was the actual – I don't know.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		During Charlottesville, Trump said, I've seen the videos and there were very fine people on both sides and I am not talking about the white nationalists and neo-Nazis because they should be condemned totally.
unidentified		Gotcha.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And the entirety of the Democrat-aligned media apparatus cut off the back half of the quote and showed Trump saying, very fine people on both sides, clip, and then showing white nationalists marching with tiki torches.
unidentified		Gotcha.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And that was how Joe Biden launched his campaign.
		And this is why I say...
		I think abortion is wrong.
		I think it is a bad thing, but I also don't, I don't know how you get to a governmental system where a woman has to get a court writ to be able to have any kind of medical procedure.
		The end result, of course, I don't want to – you always got to rehash the abortion debate because people don't understand the nuance.
		But you end up with a system where it's like a woman goes to the doctor and they're like, heavens me, you're having an emergency.
		Insert something.
		We have to terminate the baby to save your life, like unrelated to the pregnancy.
		And it's like, okay, let's try and get a speedy writ from a judge to confirm this.
unidentified		But the medical abortions has never really been a problem though.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So my point is the end result is that you get people abusing the system.
		So this is the challenge in trying to find a compromise.
		But without rehashing the abortion, my point is the left's position is abortion up to nine months for any reason, no matter what.
unidentified		This is actually what I want to kind of discuss.
		I would say if we had more programs to help after, I'd be fine with that too.
		But look at Colorado.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Colorado removed all restrictions on abortion up to nine months.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Which is what Canada has as well, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which is insane.
unidentified		Well, the issue is that in Canada, that basically never happens as a result of it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't matter.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like, why legalize murder and then be like, yeah, but people don't get murdered, so we're going to legalize it.
unidentified		What?
		Probably because this fundamentally should be more of a congressional issue, right?
		Like, the fact that Roe went through the judicial system in the first place is probably fundamentally part of the problem, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I disagree.
unidentified		Here's what I would maybe zoom out to.
		We're talking about partisan hacks, right?
		It's really annoying.
		To talk to partisan hacks.
		As somebody who's left-leaning, but I'm not really a partisan hack because I don't have a buy-in on your guys' election.
		Fundamentally, I'm not voting, right?
		So I don't care about Biden or Kamala because they represent X party.
		And, you know, I'm sure you're familiar.
		The left wouldn't even acknowledge that, like, Biden was kind of weird because he had a bunch of clips kind of like sniffing kids.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sniffing little girls.
unidentified		Yeah, it's weird.
		It's fucking weird.
		It's super, super weird.
		The issue is that on the right, And if Donald Trump wants to get rid of the Constitution, that's fine with me.
		And it's like, all of this is crazy town.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but that's not Charlie Kirk or Ben Shapiro or who else do we have?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Stephen Crowder or, you know.
unidentified		Sure.
		We have different things like, for example, getting really mad at certain violent jokes from the other side, but then celebrating the same types of violent jokes on your side.
		I think both sides are— Would consider some of them extreme left, and then, yeah, the rest of them are probably right.
		Because when you put a—well, first of all, part of what I'm trying to say is we're not still talking to each other, right?
		Like, I'm here, and I'm defending far-left positions.
		I don't hold any of these positions.
		There's lots of people around me that don't hold these.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, why?
		Don't defend them.
		I don't know.
		Well, those are the only things— My point is that you're a conservative.
unidentified		I'm not a conservative.
		You are.
		I'm just not.
		I'm fundamentally not, right?
		I like Ezra Klein's abundance policies, right?
		I just like this.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What is that?
unidentified		Ezra Klein?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I know Ezra Klein.
unidentified		His abundance policies, for example, is very big on basically removing a lot of proceduralism, figuring out where the inefficiencies are, and making it the case that blue states can build the things that they believe in, like green energy, high-speed rails, etc., etc., etc.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Who disagrees?
unidentified		Lots of people on the far left.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Steve Bannon wants to tax the rich.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He thinks the billionaire should be taxed at 100%.
unidentified		Sure, but then the- Is he left-wing?
unidentified		I don't know much about Steve Bannon.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, he's considered like the architect of J6, a far-right white nationalist, which he's not, by the way.
		My point is left and right is not defined by your policies.
		It's defined by what you believe to be true.
unidentified		I would say it's how you perform, mostly.
		That's how you appear.
		I would agree with Tim.
		I think it has to do with the underlying culture of each side, too.
		That is how you perform, right?
		the underlying culture.
		You code switch really well with men and you say things that are like, Yeah, code-switch, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's a left-coded language.
unidentified		Code-switching?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The right doesn't say it.
unidentified		Code-switching is, I'm pretty sure, from black culture.
unidentified		It's definitely not a left-coded thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Continue, but I'm going to pull it up.
unidentified		Code-switching?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I love this article.
unidentified		I'm a boomer.
		I don't even know what you're talking about.
		It's a black cultural thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
		I mean, maybe.
		Conservatives don't do this.
		White liberals present themselves as less competent in interactions with African Americans.
		The idea of, like, when Tim Walz was like, I can talk to white guys.
		Conservatives were like, huh?
		Because conservatives tend not to change the way they communicate for other groups of people.
unidentified		Sorry, just look into the origin if we need to have this fight, which we don't even need to.
		Code switching comes from the black culture, which is talking about black people who are existing in academic spaces who have to code switch from the way that black people talk and interact and culturally exist amongst each other to being super white.
		This is what code switching comes from.
		It's not even relevant.
		That's just what code switching is.
		What I'm talking about here is that when you're thinking about left and right, it's, it is reducing on like what policies are.
		And that's part of my problem is that left and right should be policies.
		And the fact that it's performance based, which you might argue that started with the left, maybe it did.
		I'm not fully sure, but say it did say it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It goes back and forth, actually.
unidentified		I would agree with that.
		I think it's bad all around.
		I think it's harmful in every single way for people to look at me and go, she's got a choker, an earpiece, so this is probably her worldview.
		It probably isn't.
		In fact, I think about my worldview.
		It's much more complex than new.
		And I think that we need to do that to each other.
		I need to go to Tim Pool and say, what do you believe?
		Because I know that you're not a stereotypical MAGA.
		I don't know what it is exactly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's right wing.
unidentified		What?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What you just described.
		Let me put it this way.
		Carl Benjamin had a really great breakdown of my conversation with Adam Conover, and the clip that went massively viral, like Asmongold was talking about it, and he did a really funny bit, was I got exasperated after an hour and a half into the conversation where the dude was clearly not interested in truth.
		And, you know, with all due respect, like Adam Conover, I think he was great in terms of wanting to come on the show and with respect, but politically.
		He does not represent us.
unidentified		Yeah, but he probably represents the average.
unidentified		I mean, he probably represents a typical lefty guy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		20 million views per video on left liberal content.
		He's got a new podcast.
		He's getting tons of views.
		He's doing tours.
		Granted, he got a lot of flack over that crypto thing.
		But anyway, the point is, I said, the very fine people hoax.
		And he says, which is?
		And I said, that Trump called Nazis fine people.
		And he goes, right.
		He said, there's very fine people on both sides.
		And then I immediately said, and not the neo-Nazis and white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.
		To his response, he said that.
		And I was like, yes!
		And I pulled up Snopes that said Trump never called him this.
		And his response was, I don't know anything about it.
		Immediately got called out by everybody saying, wait, you just quoted it.
		You literally just referenced the very fine people on both sides, which is what he was accused of saying, without citing the remainder of the quote.
		So you do know what this thing is.
		Now you're claiming you don't.
		Carl Benjamin pointed out, he said, the ethos of the liberal.
		So Tim is desperately trying to say, and I'm quoting Carl, not speaking in third person, this is what actually happened, whereas Adam is trying to maintain his adherence to social orthodoxy, which I refer to as wokeness.
		He does not value truth.
		He values what needs to be said to create social cohesion.
		Whereas I value truth over social cohesion.
		It's actually, I think, a masculine-feminine-coded thing, actually.
unidentified		I think that's true, and there's a question I'd like to pose.
		Do you think it's easier to change men's mind or women's mind?
		Women's mind.
		You think so?
		Yes, the meme that women just become the political system of their boyfriend and husband is like a...
		Yes, it is.
		Women just shift towards typically the opinion of the people around them by and large.
		This is just unquestionable.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would actually argue it's neutral.
		Different.
		Men respond to different kinds of arguments and women respond to different kinds of arguments.
		So understanding the expectations that women have on average that are different, you can exploit either and to believe in whatever you want.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean that's true.
		I just feel like intuitively – I haven't dug deep into it, but it was something I was thinking about.
		And it was a good segue into it.
		I just think intuitively men are probably looking for more logic and more reason-based solutions or more if you can prove it to me.
		Obviously there's outliers and there's crazy people who are going to stick with it to the end.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But so that doesn't necessarily confer a logical system.
		In fact, a lot of guys will be convinced to follow a guy because he's driving a flashy car.
		This is where you get fake it till you make it.
		A guy will – there was a guy that I knew who ran a business in California, and he made something like $60,000, $70,000 a year.
		He spent all of his money on – I can't remember what kind of car it was.
		He got like a Lotus or something, which is like 50 grand.
		It's not the craziest, but it looks crazy, and was broke living in a bachelor apartment.
		But when he pulled up to business meetings in a Lotus wearing a nice suit, they said, I want to be like him.
		not realizing he lived in squalor, he was putting on that And he was able to sell his company and he made a lot of money.
		Fake it till you make it.
		That's Hollywood, baby.
unidentified		performance right this is what i'm That is the social media.
		It's true.
		It's the social media domain, which is unfortunate.
		The issue is that I'm very tired of hearing like right-leaning people being like, the vibe side is just the left.
		It's like, it's all of you.
		It's all of you all the way through.
		And it always has been the biggest problem with the Enlightenment and like to some way.
		What you're saying, I mean, like, men are like the logical, rational ones.
		I'm like, not really.
		They tend to be more object-oriented, right?
		But subjectivity and emotionality is a fundamental part of understanding the world around you because abstraction is essential to engaging in the complexities of what the world is around us.
		This is fundamentally Soarite's paradox.
		Yeah, I mean, I think the better way to say it is like, yeah, I probably more agree with what Tim was saying is that maybe they're more abstract thought oriented and then men are more like pragmatic That would not be good.
		I think men are able to do abstract thought just as well as women.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let me put it this way.
		Typically, everybody always gets mad when you reference their group.
		They're like, I don't do that.
		Yeah, I get it.
		If you want to convince a woman to follow and do something, you need to have ten women standing in front of her all telling her that's what you're supposed to do.
unidentified		That's what I was trying to get at.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If you want a man to follow, you need a bunch of men looking up to one big strong guy lavished in gold and jewels telling them what to do.
unidentified		But you can also – I feel like – so I work in the automotive industry.
		Like if there's a guy doing something – if there's a guy doing something the wrong way, like doing the job the wrong way ten times and he's like losing time on it or whatever, if a guy like picks on him enough and he's like, oh, yeah, you're going to do it that way again?
		You're going to drop – you're going to go this way?
		And you can kind of give him shit and you can kind of break down there and show it to them like, hey.
		It's better if you try to do it this way.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I've got to be honest.
		I actually think in most interactions, if a guy was working on a car and was doing it wrong, and another guy walked up and said, oh, actually, if you use the ratchet, it'll go faster.
		He'll go, oh, for real?
		No, thanks.
unidentified		Sometimes they're stuck in their way.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, I get it.
unidentified		They're like...
unidentified		And then you go back out there and they're...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But I do think the typical interaction with a guy is he'll be like, try doing it like that.
		You know, like for me, there are people who skateboard.
		I've been skateboarding longer than they've been alive, and I watch their trick tip videos.
		I have no illusions of, like, I'm not going to lie to myself.
		I can't do that thing.
		Here's a guy who's 15 years old who's better at me.
		He's going to tell me how to do it.
		Dang, I've been skating longer than he's been alive.
		I'll take the advice that I can get.
		But more to the point, I think there are obstinate guys who are going to be like, I know what I'm doing.
		Get out of my face.
		But anyway, the major point is the Democratic Party is female-coded.
		The Republican Party is male-coded.
		You are mentioning that it's like performative and vibes, but I would argue that's a generality of the left and a tendency of the right.
		So on the right, I was on trigonometry.
		It was like two months ago.
		They put out a month ago.
		And what the guys on trigonometry said to me was that you're just blanketing the left.
		I could say something about the right, and I said, you're wrong.
		Yeah, you're wrong.
		On the right, you have Tulsi Gabbard, former liberal, RFK Jr., former liberal.
		You have Elon Musk, former liberal.
		Technically all still liberals, I guess, but working with the Republicans.
		And then you have Christian conservative Charlie Kirk, probably the most prominent, who says, Tim Pool, you're a moderate liberal-leaning guy.
		Come sit on my stage for the biggest event of the year in politics and talk about what you think.
		And that's not vibe-coded.
		I can go on that stage and say Donald Trump should be criminally investigated for the commando right in Yemen that killed a seven-year-old American girl.
		And the conservatives are like, OK, but heaven forbid a liberal go in a They went after that guy.
		Went for his throat.
unidentified		Well, they couldn't admit that there was some signs of early dementia or some signs of mental degradation.
		And then as soon as he gets out of office or maybe they're thinking about running Kamala against him, oh, he's falling apart.
		The group that is accepting is always the group that's been on the tail end for the last little bit, right?
		So the left was the really accepting chill group that just basically allowed everyone in as long as you stood for a lot of similar ideas.
		And they would kind of talk to everyone during the entire rationalist era, right?
		It was a very, very open space.
		The issue is that then the left won the culture war by canceling a lot of right speakers off of their platforms.
		And then they got deranged and echo chambered and wouldn't talk to anyone anymore.
		So now the right is the accepting side.
		but to assume that it will remain the accepting There's no evidence to even support that it's doing that.
		Whereas you look back to the early era when the right was culturally leading again, if you look back into maybe the 90s or whatever, you see a very strict system on the right where if they find out that you've ever cheated, you're out.
		If they find out that you've got a baby out of wedlock, you're out.
		If they find out you've sworn too many times, it was very, very purity testing because typically the group that is in the higher level of cultural power will create purity testing because they're better.
		And so they can kick people out and then the other group absorbs them until that other group gets more power and then it'll be back and forth and back and forth.
		The reason I am left is because of what I believe.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		And that's it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I'm left too.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Except no one in the modern political space will say Tim Pool is left wing.
unidentified		Potentially.
		I don't know all of your political leanings.
		So you might be left.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So like Steve Bannon is a better example.
		So I don't talk about myself.
		I've argued with him.
		He's left of me.
		He said we should be taxing the billionaires at everything.
		Take their money.
		They're crooks.
		They're ripping us off.
		They're flooding the electoral system.
		They're buying our politicians.
		Take everything they got.
		And I was like, why?
		And he goes, so they don't have it.
		It has nothing to do with – you love saying we're going to fund – he said, no, no, no.
		The billionaires are bad.
		And then I laughed and I was like, Steve, you would have fit right in at Occupy Wall Street.
		And he's like, you think?
unidentified		And I was like, that's literally the Occupy Wall Street position.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The billionaires are ripping us off.
		They flooded the zone in politics with money.
		They don't represent our interests.
		They're selling out the working class.
		They've been doing it for a long time.
		This is why Bernie Sanders was popular.
		He literally said in 2015, open borders is a Koch brothers proposal.
		No open borders.
		And the World Socialist website called him a nationalist capitalist for wanting secure borders.
		Left and right has nothing to do with your policy views.
		Literally nothing.
unidentified		It must.
		What I'm saying is I don't care what these bullshit assholes say.
		I don't care.
		They don't get to rob us of our words, and they don't get to rob us of our principles, right?
		I'm a Christian that lots of Christians don't like, and that doesn't mean that I'm not a Christian.
		That doesn't mean that I don't love Christianity, and I fight for it, like, vehemently because I believe in it, despite the fact that most of the group would kick me out.
		I'm a feminist that most feminists call a pick-me.
		They don't like me very much, but I'm a feminist because I believe in what the actual movement of feminism says.
		So is Nancy Mace.
		And guns.
		I think gun laws are very fast.
		I'm just not right-wing because left-leaning policy is strong institutions, regulated economy, right?
		It is taking care of the vulnerable welfare state, and it is allowing individuals freedoms and liberties to do what they would like to do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I get what you're saying, but I'm going to say it again.
		colloquially today people don't use that word in that way.
		So my point is, let's just say this.
		We'll call it tribal left, tribal right.
		We'll call it team red and team blue.
		You're team red.
unidentified		I'm team gray.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're actually team red.
unidentified		Scott Alexander writes about this company.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's fascinating that...
unidentified		I don't want to get into Trump bashing here, especially because I really do want to avoid doing too much domestic policy conversation as a Canadian stuff.
		But I'm...
		Because I think what the conservative purpose is, is to preserve and to consecrate and conserve tradition and values and constitution, which made us in the past so great.
		And the point of the left is to progress us and push us forward.
		And I want to do that.
		I want to push us forward.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's the right.
unidentified		It's not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's the colloquial right.
unidentified		It's not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like 9 million Obama voters in 2016 voted for Donald Trump.
		And one of the big reasons was that Donald Trump went on stage at the RNC and unfurled a pride flag to thunderous applause.
		Donald Trump came into the Republican Party and pushed this political faction in a progressive direction.
		He's a moderate.
		Even Vox called him a moderate.
		Trump supporters.
		Donald Trump said on the issue of gay marriage.
unidentified		Not a fan of any of that.
		Someone who's further right.
		Trans people have to have M and F on their passports.
		So now most trans people cannot go internationally anywhere where they don't appear as like an M on their passport.
		That's just not...
		If you want to do...
		She, in every way, Is a woman.
		Nobody would look at her and think that that person should walk into a male bathroom, but because she's trans, she has an M on her passport, and she now cannot go into multiple very conservative countries because of threats to her life.
		Well, to be fair, he'd be under threat if they went anyways.
		No, she wouldn't, because most people, first of all, she was not super out about her transness.
		Most people never knew.
		At all.
		And she has gone into these countries numerous of times in the past.
		She can't anymore.
		At all.
		Because of this passport change.
		That isn't helping trans people.
		That is fundamental.
		That just seems like a self-inflicted problem.
		I mean, you're choosing to go to those zones.
		She's a war correspondent as her career.
		Yes, she goes to Iraq, but she's always gone to Iraq.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You know, I'll concede this is a lefty position, and it is, I would refer to as...
		Farcical, fantastical.
		I did conflict reporting.
		I didn't go to any active war zones.
		I went to civil war and conflict and crisis and disaster zones.
		And it was always fascinating to me because of this political correctness reality, especially pertaining to HR and stuff.
		The story that I usually tell is I was doing what's called heat training.
		It's redundant.
		Heat includes the word training.
		Hostile environment action training.
		And they couldn't actually tell the women not to go to these zones.
		And prepare them for what happens to women in war zones because they'd get sued if they did.
		And so someone asked this former MI6 guy, should women who go into conflict zones be concerned about rape?
unidentified		And he went, men get raped.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Men get raped.
		Anyway, so moving on, because he literally couldn't say if you're a woman, you go to a war zone, you're captured, you'll be mercilessly raped and sold into slavery.
		And if you're a man, you probably won't be.
unidentified		You'll be killed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because if he did, that would be sexual discrimination in a work environment because this is a contracted company for insurance providers and media outlets.
		He's not allowed to say these things.
		So stupid.
		The idea that a trans person thinks they have a right to go to a conflict zone and, oh, heavens me, my passport.
		Dude, you die.
		You go to conflict zones.
		You assume the risks of who you are and what you are.
		And this idea that you are entitled to some special privilege to go to a foreign country where you may be killed in any circumstance is laughably insane.
unidentified		What's the benefit of changing any of these passport things?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In 1993, there was a law passed in the United States because forever, when medical testing was done for drugs, they did not do it on women.
		And so when women would go to the hospital with pain, they'd say, take this painkiller.
		And the woman would say, it hurts, and they'd go, women are such fucking babies.
		And then they were like, hey, maybe drugs work differently on men and women due to physiology.
		So they passed a law saying from now on, medical research has to be done on both men and women because we are just kind of realizing, The drugs work differently on women.
		So if someone, considering men and women have different organs, quite literally, there's a reason for why we designate your gender.
unidentified		On your passport?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's an ID.
unidentified		Why on my passport does it need to say for somebody who in every single way, it's like Blair White, look at them and say it looks like a woman.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are women allowed to walk around outside in Islamic nations?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Without a man?
unidentified		I was going to say with a man and usually covered, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So with a man.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if a female decides to get a visa to...
unidentified		No, of course not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Of course not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so why do you think you have a right to subvert the laws of a foreign nation that has invited you into their country?
unidentified		How is it subverting the laws?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Lying to subvert their laws which have specific gendered laws.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You say, I should have a government document that lies so I can break the law in that country.
unidentified		It just doesn't make any sense to me.
		The laws that they would be breaking is that if Blair White has M on their passport, I guess Blair should be walking around without head coverings.
		And wearing like keffiyeh and not having a person, which they would kill her for because they would see a woman.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What right do you have to someone else's nation?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't understand.
unidentified		This isn't about a right.
unidentified		This is about your own country granting you the ability to exist and perform in the way that every single person is going to treat you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're talking specifically about your friend who wants to go to conflict zones in foreign countries and lie to their government to get privy to access.
unidentified		You have the right to go and do your work.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You do not have a right to someone else's nation.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They grant you a privilege to enter under a visa.
unidentified		Sure, but the issue is that you're making it seem like I would grant you that if it was the other nations getting mad at America being like, put M on trans passports.
		But that's not what happened.
		Trump made the decision himself, unrelated to any external pressures.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm not even sure why.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You said they could be killed.
unidentified		They could be killed.
unidentified		Why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Would the government take action against this person?
unidentified		They probably would get in major trouble at the border at all.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Agreed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you're asking the U.S. government to produce a false document to lie to a foreign government.
unidentified		Are you saying that it was a false document before?
unidentified		That the government was just lying this entire time?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If you're a man and they put female on your passport, they're lying.
unidentified		If you put gender and put woman, is that fine?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's no W. It's male or female.
		Those are sexes.
		It's biology.
unidentified		Sure, but couldn't we just update the passport to be gender?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Why not?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because we're identifying a biological structure of human beings for a purpose because different laws- Indeed.
		It's an ID.
		And we have international treaties with foreign nations because they have different laws than us.
		This idea that Americans get to go and do whatever they want whenever they want is so stupid.
unidentified		That's not what I'm advocating for.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You think an American male should be able to get a passport that says they're a female so they can enter a country where it's illegal and do things that are otherwise illegal?
unidentified		I think that the idea that, like you were basically saying that Trump is pro-trans in every way.
unidentified		You said that he was very moderate.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A moderate on the issue.
unidentified		Yeah, exactly.
		And I said he immediately did something that actually has security and life threats against your civilians.
		You know what the American government has responsibility for?
		Protecting its citizens.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that have to do with entering a foreign country under sovereign jurisdiction?
unidentified		Because you're still an American citizen that the government has a procedure to protect.
		So if that trans person goes, you know what?
		I'll embrace that.
		Blair White goes, it should say M on my passport and then goes in.
		Does the American government have to go rescue her when she inevitably gets attacked and assaulted?
		Or does she just have to give up on her career as a war correspondent?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, you do.
		You're not entitled to these things.
		This is weird.
unidentified		It's such a wild thing for you to say.
unidentified		It's totally chill that the American government can just be like, nah, you're not allowed to do your career anymore.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think you're lying.
unidentified		I'm not lying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You think Americans should have a right to commit crimes in other countries?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes or no?
unidentified		That's not what I've said.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying you are, but is the answer no?
unidentified		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So Americans should not be able to break the law in other countries?
unidentified		Correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Even when those laws are bullshit?
unidentified		By and large.
unidentified		And the American government should protect you when you do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Don't go to, where is it, like Dubai?
		Like if a woman gets raped in Dubai, you go to prison.
		Okay.
		So is it illegal for women to walk around in these countries?
		It is, right?
unidentified		Yeah, without the male and et cetera, et cetera.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if a female...
		Like, let's say a woman in Saudi Arabia starts illicitly taking testosterone to appear like a man to go around.
		They would get in trouble for that, wouldn't they?
unidentified		Probably not if they passed well enough because nobody would know.
unidentified		No, no, no.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying when they got caught, it's a crime.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It is illegal to do.
unidentified		Because they're trans, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I don't understand how you're arguing.
unidentified		You're basically saying that trans people just shouldn't go where it's illegal for them to exist.
unidentified		That's what you're saying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why would you?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, hold on.
unidentified		Any reason that you might want to do war correspondence?
unidentified		What do you mean?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do you recognize that war correspondence can die?
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I don't understand what your point is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		My point is that you should be allowed— People have a right to go to foreign war zones without the risk of death, and they should be able to— That's not what I'm advocating for.
unidentified		They have a right to be able to go, and their government shouldn't be immediately outing them to make it more dangerous.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You think people have a right to go to any country they want?
unidentified		Assuming that the government approves their visa, etc., etc., yet not right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I agree if they approve their visa, right?
unidentified		They had the liberty to go, I should say.
unidentified		Right is probably the wrong word.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Assuming that foreign government says we will grant you the visa.
unidentified		Yeah, the liberty to.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do people have a right to lie on their visa applications?
unidentified		No, but the issue is that before, the government didn't view that it was a lie.
unidentified		And now they do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
		Because we're not talking about gender on passports.
		You agree with that.
		We're talking about biological sex.
		I'm advocating that essentially you probably should allow somebody, like Blair White, You are upset that Donald Trump said you have to have your biological sex on the passport.
unidentified		You undid something because it was already done.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because they were putting fake sexes on passports.
unidentified		Essentially, yeah, which would have been better if they did gender instead.
unidentified		I agree.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so then the issue is, which this is where the contention is, you have a friend who wants a false biological sex listed on their passport so they can defraud a foreign country into entering.
unidentified		Not really.
unidentified		I want them to be able to have the liberty to go there and that the moment that they go there, they won't.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		At the permission of the government.
unidentified		Both of them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Who expects you to tell the truth on things like what your biological sex is.
unidentified		For example, if your government just agrees that essentially you perform as a woman and they're willing to give you an F so that you can enter spaces safely and walk around and not be attacked for just how you appear, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do you think countries like the Emirates and Dubai appreciate the fact that people are lying about their gender to bypass?
unidentified		Probably not.
		Probably not.
		I just don't really...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't care about...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is like American citizens can present false paperwork to foreign countries to get access to their nation.
unidentified		It's not false paperwork.
unidentified		The government verifies it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It is.
unidentified		It's not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So when the government says it, it's true?
unidentified		On the passport, fundamentally.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If the government asserts something, it's a fact.
unidentified		That's not what I've said.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And it's not true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A government can lie.
unidentified		Well, Tim, do you want to engage with what I'm saying?
unidentified		Or do you want to create a version of words?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think you're lying.
unidentified		I'm not lying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		An individual has no right to a foreign country.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Period.
unidentified		I've never said that they have a right.
unidentified		They have a liberty to it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A liberty to what?
unidentified		To apply to go there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And is lying to that government okay?
unidentified		It's not lying if your government is willing to agree that essentially you can be F. Are males females?
		No.
		They're not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so if a male says, I'm female, is that a lie?
unidentified		Uh, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if a person applies for a passport to the government who is male and says, I'm female, is he lying?
unidentified		It depends on if the government is willing to allow female to include woman.
unidentified		Woman looking.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about sexes, not genders.
unidentified		Yeah, and if the government I'm answering you.
unidentified		I'm answering you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is why men are leaving the left.
unidentified		You have to let me talk, right?
unidentified		I'm engaging with you in exceptionally good faith.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is why men are leaving the left.
unidentified		I'm answering your questions directly, and I'm not pivoting away from them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You are.
unidentified		You just don't like my answers, which is totally okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A male who says I'm female is lying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because we're talking about biological sex.
unidentified		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if a male goes to the Saudi government and says I'm a female, he lied, correct?
unidentified		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do you think people have a right to lie to foreign governments to get visas?
unidentified		To get visas?
unidentified		I'm sure there's some exceptions that I might be okay with it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That you can lie to a foreign government to get a visa?
unidentified		Yeah, so for example, I think a lot of people lie to North Korea on their visas.
unidentified		It's like what they're doing, who are helping smuggle in information and helping freeing North Koreans, for an example.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sure, to be fair, we're talking about subterfuge.
unidentified		Actually, I shouldn't say anyone who does this, right?
		But there are people who do this to really extremist regimes like North Korea.
		In that case, they're lying on their visa.
		But I'm kind of okay with it, right?
		because they're trying to help the North Koreans.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, so in this case, if you've got a country Yep.
unidentified		So if you've got a country that looks at trans people and says that they don't exist and there is no way for Blair to enter safely without us killing her, I'm okay lying a little bit to that country so that Blair can enter safely and do her job.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And the government should aid that lie.
unidentified		Well, the lie would be...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think this is a really great example of why young men are leaving the left.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because I'll just give you my personal feelings, which just how I interpret this moment right now.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Your statements are illogical.
unidentified		They're not.
		They're just not face that.
		They're not face valid, right?
		You know what that means?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You've made a claim that you've backtracked a little bit.
		When you fluttered between gender and sex, you then said that we should change passwords to be gender, not sex.
		You acknowledge that sex is different.
unidentified		Sure, yeah.
unidentified		I shouldn't have baked in extra arguments.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You've asserted an entitlement to lie to foreign governments for access to their countries.
unidentified		To some degree, yeah.
unidentified		You agreed to that, though, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
unidentified		Yeah, you said, yeah, there are certain situations that you're going to lie.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I was acknowledging what you had said about people lying to get into North Korea.
unidentified		Do you think that people should lie to get into North Korea to help aid those people in freeing themselves from the extreme oppression that North Koreans experience?
unidentified		You think it's bad when humanitarian Why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it's a question of the sovereignty of nations.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't like North Korea.
unidentified		Shouldn't America be like, hey, North Korea, just a heads up, these people?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Careful.
unidentified		They're not entering just to do tourism.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They actually want to help your people.
		I think if we have treaties with nations we are not actively at war with, we should do our best to adhere to them.
		And so the question of international treaties pertaining to visas, the idea that the U.S. government would permit people to lie on their passports, it's a weird thing to advocate for.
		Sure, the issue is that, again, this is why I said I don't understand.
unidentified		Why insist on having biology on your passport?
unidentified		Why not have gender?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because there are laws in certain nations.
		Because it's a redundancy?
		It's meaningless?
unidentified		It's not redundant.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you put, I'm a male woman?
unidentified		Well, Blair White.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What is a woman?
unidentified		What is a woman?
unidentified		It is a performance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
unidentified		It means that you appear a woman.
		It's like porn.
		What's porn?
		Well, you see it when you know it, right?
		If you look at it, that's porn.
		That naked image, it's not porn.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why can't liberals answer this question?
unidentified		Because the, because, do you want me to go why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because they're scared to?
unidentified		No, because of, uh, we went into it before.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is a woman as an adult human female?
unidentified		No.
		Not at all.
		The issue is that it's Sorite's Paradox.
		Do you know what Sorite's Paradox is?
		Okay.
		I've got a thousand grains of sand.
		And I say, that's a heap of sand.
		Would you agree with me?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, I know this.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I use it all the time.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How many grains of sand makes a heap?
unidentified		Exactly.
		Right?
		And the line there is hard to know.
		Right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's really not.
unidentified		So Blair White is a man.
unidentified		Is a man.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And Blair White will tell you Blair White is a man.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		That's fine for Blair White.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Blair White literally makes videos where No.
unidentified		Oh.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Why not?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, my position on this is like, Blair White walking to a men's room will create a weird social chaos, and I'm not really concerned about Blair.
unidentified		What social chaos would it make?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So for men, it's a bit different for women, right?
		And so the issue is not specifically about Blair White.
		It's about Buck Angel, a better example.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Buck Angel walking into a women's room is going to start a fight.
		And so we— Because Buck Angel is a masculine, bicycle-mustached, male-looking individual.
		Should be using the men's room.
		Hulk Hogan with a vagina is a literal woman.
unidentified		Hulk Hogan with a vagina should be using the men's room?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Gotcha.
unidentified		Why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Social order?
		The social piece is that people make judgments based on appearance and there have been instances, there was one story out of McDonald's where a lesbian female was pulled from the women's bathroom and the police kept calling her sir despite the fact it was a literal biological female because of this this controversy and conundrum.
		So I don't have this staunch right conservative you know make everybody use their biological gender space because that will just be chaotic.
		That being said there's no simple answer.
		Why?
		Because a male who was exposing himself to children went into a spa.
		in California, in San Francisco, exposed himself to women and children.
		And when a woman complained, they said, the assumption is this person is trans and we can't intervene.
		When in fact, it wasn't a trans person, it was a male who was exposing himself to children.
		So therein lies a much greater problem.
		On the surface, I think the simple answer is I don't see how any guy is going to appreciate Buck Angel walking into a ladies' room with their wife.
unidentified		Exactly, because people make judgments on appearance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
unidentified		And those judgments on appearance that we make is that performance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And that has nothing to do with your entitlement to government documents nor entering foreign countries.
unidentified		I'm not getting there yet, right?
		If we make judgments based on appearance, you look at me and how do you know I'm a woman?
		Did you check my passport?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Did you check my vagina?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Nope.
unidentified		I could have a penis for all we know.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Probably not.
unidentified		I could.
unidentified		Why are you assuming I'm a woman?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, you have a woman's body.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Yes, I perform very woman.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's roll.
		Your skin.
		Men have thicker skin.
		It's usually the brow ridge, your facial features, the structure of your shoulders compared to your hips, the fact that you have breasts.
		These are all probably a woman.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		So if a woman gets breast implants, is she more or less a woman?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Neither.
unidentified		Okay, but she appears more feminine, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No.
unidentified		Yeah, like a super, super busty woman is obviously going to be more hyper femme.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't agree.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't think your breast size makes you more or less of a woman.
unidentified		I said femme at this point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't think femininity is reduced to like the size of a woman's breasts because then morbidly obese women will be more feminine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That doesn't make sense.
unidentified		Well, it's more, again, it's performance, right?
		Like this is why if you search for porn and you look up like super like hyper feminine or hyper feminine like porn, you're going to get women with huge tits and a huge ass.
		This is obviously true.
		These are feminine traits, right?
		Men don't typically have big tits and big asses.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So creating subcategories to define something doesn't change that woman and man are typically used to define adult, human, male or female.
unidentified		Yeah.
		I would say, like, 90% of the time.
		And the problem is that we have to legislate for like also the 10%.
		And so when it works, 90%.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Substantially less.
unidentified		Sure, but we still have to legislate for it.
		We can't just be like, eh, fuck you guys.
		You're not our problem.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Actually, the argument from trans people is it was better off before any of this was happening when trans people just used bathrooms.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what I'm noticing.
unidentified		I agree that the trans movement.
unidentified		Well, legislating for it in the way that the trans movement has legislated for it has caused problems, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They were trying to get it removed from the DSM-5 as well.
unidentified		I believe so, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which would mean they can no longer get medical treatment or prescriptions for it.
unidentified		Look, here, if you want to have somebody who's very critical of the trans group and thinks they're full of retards, you found the girl, right?
		I think there's lots of issues with trans advocacy, but I'm not talking about that.
		I'm not talking about the group.
		I'm talking about the idea, which is what I'm wanting to gauge in.
		People make judgments on appearance.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What about body dysmorphic disorder?
unidentified		What about it?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Should people have a right to get their hands chopped off?
unidentified		It depends on if there's evidence that it benefits them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, how would it benefit someone to cut their hand off?
unidentified		Well, how would it benefit somebody to transition?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't.
unidentified		It does.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It literally doesn't.
		Suicide ideation is unchecked.
		is actually, to quote Chase Strangio, suicide attempts and suicide do not decrease from transition.
unidentified		Chase Strangio is not a strong one to...
unidentified		Sure, but you probably shouldn't use a lawyer when you're talking about trans research.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A lawyer who's trying to convince the Supreme Court is not the better example?
unidentified		No, I would say researchers are, right?
		Like, we should go to the actual data.
		I don't care what lawyers are making arguments.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Desistance rates are in the majority.
unidentified		assistance rates for under 18 are, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The issue is that if you look at data, Do you want me to tell you about the data?
unidentified		Sure.
		Okay, so there's tons of research on specifically adults, and this was before it was super, super, super politicized, because right now, most of the data that you look at for trans science between like 2018 to about 2024 is politicized on both sides.
		There's groups that are very anti-trans doing science and it's garbage.
		And there's sides that are very pro-trans and they do science and it's also garbage.
		And so the issue is that we have like only So we have to look back at like the earlier stuff and be really scrupulous about the methodology specifically.
		And so one of in the most methodologically sound studies, it's an RCT, it's longitudinal, it is...
		I believe it came out in 2003.
		I could be incorrect, but it looks at adults over time who transitioned or did not transition, right?
		And all the effects in sequelae.
		And when you look at the adults who transitioned over the, like, 10-year period that they were studying them for, there was a 60% reduction in attempt rate.
		And by attempt rate, I mean medically diagnosed, confirmed at a hospital attempt rate, which is huge.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but hold on.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't care.
unidentified		Why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about kids.
unidentified		I'm talking about adults.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I know, but I don't care what adults do.
unidentified		But when we're talking about passports and like traveling and all this sort of stuff.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		government treaties and trying to get access to a foreign nation which you have no right to attain.
unidentified		Sure, that's one argument that you're making.
unidentified		But when I'm talking about trans people...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Use the bathroom of which you most likely socially align visually.
unidentified		Yeah, by and large we should also allow their passports to not immediately out them as a group, that a culture that we believe is hateful Why are you checking American passports on the fly?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like, are you going to bars and being like, let me see your passport?
unidentified		When you go through TSA...
		Not an American.
		Who cares?
		I'm talking about Iranians.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why are you going to Iran?
unidentified		Because you have the liberty to do so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Not if Iran says no.
unidentified		Again, my issue isn't that Iran can or cannot say no.
		My issue is the government, your government, outing you in a dangerous way for no other reason than petty jabs because trans people went too far with policy.
		I think that's bad politicking.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think there's political ramifications internationally for us having false passports.
unidentified		Again, if the government will create a way that you can basically allow trans people to have a passport that looks in the way that they are presenting so that they don't get in trouble in countries that will throw trans people off of buildings, I think it's good for your government to try.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why would you go to a country that they're going to throw you off a building?
unidentified		What do you mean?
		What is this question?
		Why would women go to any country ever that they care about and do work to help the poor?
		I don't know, because they want to.
		They have the liberty to do so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		This is why I asked, why would you do it?
		You gave an answer.
unidentified		Liberty.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And my point is, sometimes you die, right?
unidentified		The government shouldn't be outing you to kill you.
		I don't care if a trans person goes to Iran and then in the process of being in Iran, they die as a war correspondent.
		I care about your own government outing you and setting you up to be killed for no other reasons than petty jabs.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I'm going to say once again, the reason why I think young men are leaving the left is that this sounds like sophistry.
unidentified		So again, let's talk about face validity.
unidentified		Do you know what face validity is?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Explain.
unidentified		Okay, face validity is this process in science.
		So when we do science, we look for things.
		So like when we test whether or not I'm testing depression, there's validity measures that we apply to ensure that I'm capturing depression and not something else like anxiety, right?
		One of the ways that we can test for whether or not we're capturing a construct is called face validity.
		And all that means is it appears good.
		And the issue is that the world is so much more complex.
		Every scientist knows that face validity as a form of validity is garbage because everything Even though all the questions might sound good, and I ask you a bunch about Green Day and all these sorts of things, and I ask how many black types of makeups you have.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're not emo.
unidentified		Right.
		They might be goth, right?
		There you go, right?
		They might be something else.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I call them cult punk now.
unidentified		So this is why face validity is a really weak thinking system.
		And my problem with the right and what you said before with men is that you said it's easier to be on the right.
		And I would say that's a weak answer because as a human being, it's not better to take the easy path.
		You should take the right pathway.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No one said that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You agreed with me that it was easier to be on the right for a man.
unidentified		It's not nonsensical for me to say taking the easier path isn't good.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Calling my answer weak is not saying...
unidentified		I didn't say your answer is weak.
		I said that men who take the easier pathway...
		That's weak.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's the weak path.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I think if we dive into this, men don't want to live in a world of sophistry.
		They don't want to be told to say there are five lights through pain of penalty.
		So when it's easier to be on the right, it's more like if you're on the right and you go to someone and say that you're gay, most people on the right, not all, are going to be like, I don't need to know that.
		I don't care.
unidentified		How do you know what's true?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's a good point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You don't.
unidentified		Right.
		And so what I'm arguing is that— The only thing I know is that I know nothing.
		Sure.
		But you know some things, right?
		And it's good to know that you know— We believe some things.
		Well— I'm an objectivist when it comes to, like, I'm a science realist, right?
		I believe that there are things we can discover that are true and will stay true, regardless of how people feel about them, right?
		I think my pencil will fall, and that's due to gravity, because it's true, and it doesn't matter if I'm like, oh god, please don't do it!
		Oh shit, I lost again!
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		we agree on that, but that's a less than one millionth of reality.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So, arguing that we can understand something basic like, a question I like to ask people is, Gravity's sequelae of falling is basic, but we don't even know what causes gravity.
unidentified		Right, right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if I were to take this phone and whip it as hard as I could at that window, what would happen?
unidentified		I don't know how thick your windows are, but it would at least smash your phone.
unidentified		It might smash your window.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's a great answer, because some people say the window would break.
		I say, actually, you don't know that.
		The assumption is the window would break because typically hard object thrown at window breaks window.
		However, it could be a bulletproof window.
		So while there are certain things that we can agree on, like if I drop object, it falls because gravity is a thing, most things we assume or believe, but we don't know.
unidentified		So why did I arrive at the right answer when you might have expected me not to?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I didn't have an expectation of your right answer.
unidentified		Sure, but why did I arrive at the correct answer if it's interesting?
unidentified		I don't know how thick your window is, but your phone would probably break at least.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Higher IQ?
unidentified		Probably not.
unidentified		For example, Adam Conover is probably not stupid, but I think he says lots of stupid shit.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because he's trying to adhere to a liberal orthodoxy.
unidentified		Because I...
		Yes, actually yes, yes, because partisanry defaults your brain to bad thinking strategies.
		And what I care about, And face validity is not a valid way to determine whether a construct is true or not because it falls apart the moment you look at the complexities of the world.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which is why I say when you go so hard on this, passports out you, people don't buy it.
unidentified		I don't care.
		If I explain to them how blitzscaling works as a venture capitalist system, you might be like, that shouldn't work.
		I don't really care.
		It's really complicated.
		It's infinitely complicated.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But you sound like Adam Conover is my point.
unidentified		A what?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You sound like Adam Conover.
unidentified		No, because I don't deny IQ and I don't deny signage, right?
		I don't sound like Adam Conover in any way other than we might align on, like, trans stuff.
		The issue is, like, I'm not engaging in science denial.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's try this.
		The issue of being able to travel to a foreign country is predicated upon the acceptance of that foreign country letting you in.
		It's their sovereignty.
		So internally, there really isn't an issue pertaining to your passport saying MF or whatever.
		I mean, unless you're trying to get a ladies'night discount, which is unconstitutional anyway, and they get sued a million times over for it.
		There's very rare circumstances other than the emotions of the individual where it matters, except in the medical field.
		Are you saying in a medical context?
unidentified		Female.
unidentified		The way that you would define female.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, we make assumptions on the surface for the most part, but I fully recognize for someone like Blair, I have no problem saying she and her.
		Why?
		Because Blair gives me respect.
unidentified		Yeah, you're a respectful person.
unidentified		And?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And Blair returns the respect.
unidentified		It would also be really fucking weird to say he, him, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, not really.
		I mean, Blair has said that she is actually a he and a man.
		And I think Blair even called her boyfriend gay.
		And so I'm kind of like, I don't know.
		Blair's nice, respectful, entertains things logically, and asks me his preferred pronoun.
		I say, okay.
		We had a drag queen on the show.
		I said, I use she.
		I said, okay, I don't care.
		Whatever.
		People who are disrespectful all call all sorts of weird names.
unidentified		Sure, I'm not asking about people who are like...
		This is my point, conservatives, I don't know who Blair is, okay?
		I'm a random person plucked from the internet, from the world who has never seen the internet.
		Which pronouns would they guess Blair is?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		She, her.
unidentified		Why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because Blair White looks female.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		And so that looks female piece is something that I think is worth applying a word to, which we call gender.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Trans.
unidentified		Gender.
		Right?
		Because that's the word that we...
		Right?
		The reason that you know that I'm a woman is because I perform like a woman in every single way.
		Even though it is possible, technically, that I'm a sneaky XY chromosome haver.
		So I even have a vagina, but I'm technically XY.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's androgen.
		I forgot the actual thing is called androgen immunity.
		Some people are born XY.
		But the testosterone never—they're immune to testosterone, so they develop like females.
		I think the issue largely is just down to why does that matter if someone's ID says their biological sex on it?
		Because, say, for somebody like intersex— Well, intersex, how do you even— Well, intersex actually has the capability to change.
unidentified		What?
		If your birth— Yeah, I think they have to pick whenever they're younger or something like that.
		They just pick a sex?
		Yeah, like I think they have both and the parents basically have to choose.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you this.
		I will grant all luxuries afforded to anyone who is legitimately intersex.
		I have no issue with that.
		It's a minority of the population.
		I don't think we should legislate for the majority for a minority in that way.
		So by all means, let's say, sure, intersex makes up like 0.017% of the population, and let's try to accommodate them.
		It's unfortunate they ended up in that circumstance.
unidentified		Sure.
		So like, for example, the Algerian boxer Amane, right?
		Everyone insisted that she was trans.
		Seems like there's no evidence that's come out.
		It seems likely that she might have some intersex stuff, her testosterone.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's why I think.
unidentified		Yeah, like she might be androgen resistant or something like that, but in a way she's like, she's been, she's Algerian, right?
		They've thought she was a female from birth and Algeria is not exactly, uh, gender open, right?
		When we looked at that situation, the right got really agitated because essentially gender was thrust in their face.
		And it's hard to solve, especially if you won't even, well, they said it was a guy, In any way, shape, or form.
		And in fact, insisting she, with breasts, is a guy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		She didn't have breasts.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That was the issue.
unidentified		I think that she has like some level, I think most ex-wives will have some level of mammary development because without testosterone you often, this is why pedophiles who are on SSRIs often have mammary development.
		Mammary development is kind of default unless you have androgen to prevent it.
		I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think you're right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's why, like, dudes with steroids, when they stop producing testosterone after the fact, they end up growing boobs.
unidentified		Some boobies, right?
		And so she did have breasts.
		They were probably small.
		I wouldn't be surprised.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Bitched at Bob was his name?
unidentified		Sure, but, like, Asian women have small tits, and that doesn't mean that we're like, that's a man now, that's a man!
unidentified		Otherwise, my argument that more tits equals more women would be true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The issue largely just stems to the, we don't legislate for the absolute minority.
		It's like, well, we can't – if you don't fit into the category we've provided for the overwhelming majority, then maybe a secondary category or something would make a lot of sense.
		Because if someone was born without feet, they're not going to be runners.
		We don't say like – We're going to give you a robot leg so you can run.
		That was actually the Oscar Pistorius debate because he didn't have legs and so they were letting him use these prosthetics that people argued gave an advantage.
		He argued didn't and it was contentious.
		And then he killed his girlfriend, I think, and got arrested for it.
unidentified		The fair play guy, right?
		The big question of fair play.
		Something I was trying to ask you earlier was sort of that too.
		What he's kind of touching on is that, well, how can you say that in this one – like right now you're saying we should – Basically, legislate for the minority.
		We always legislate for the minority, just to be clear.
		But you're saying, well, we shouldn't be listening to these By and large, that's what most judicial criminalities For example, I guess I would say, I'm sorry that the left got so crazy.
		It wasn't really my doing.
		I've only been in this industry for three years.
		I've always fought them.
		I don't like them.
		Why are you treating me like I'm them?
		I'm not a crazy leftist.
		I'm a reasonable liberal, and we are a growing group, a vastly growing group, because a lot of people are being like, yeah, progressives are kind of stupid.
		Like, they're a little cringe.
		And I agree.
		I've been fighting them my entire life.
		The issue is that I refuse that the alternative has to go, well, if it looks and feels that way, it is that way, except for when I don't want it to be that way.
		It's like, that's not a satisfying answer.
		What we're talking about, though, is the minority.
		There are not tons of Blair Whites and what's the other guy?
		Yeah, there's not a lot of trans people.
		I forget his name.
		Buck Angel.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Buck Angel.
unidentified		It looks like a guy, yeah.
		That's why they're like a unique case.
		That's why everybody cites them is because they are the minority.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here's another issue.
		Let's move on from this.
		The policies that you've espoused outside of like the transgender issue, many people on the right completely agree with.
unidentified		I agree.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so the issue then becomes reformer versus revolutionary or are you lying?
		And so when you have – in 2020, I donated the max to Tulsi Gabbard and Andrew Yang.
		And I wanted sane Democrats to kick out the lunatics.
		Instead, they all stood there and raised their hand about opening the border, decriminalizing crossings, giving health care to non-citizens.
		And I was like, what the fuck is going on?
		And then they basically booted Tulsi Gabbard and she still endorsed Joe Biden.
		Andrew Yang ended up taking a job at CNN and once again just trying to pander to the left.
		And so I was like, wow.
		Who am I going to vote for?
		Donald Trump then came out and said, the DEI stuff needs to be removed from government.
		I said, hey, I'm for that.
		He said, no new wars.
		I'm for that.
		He said, we're going to set a timeline for withdrawal from Afghanistan.
		I was like, wow, these are things that I, as a liberal-leaning person my whole life, have longed for.
		I think this is the best chance I have because Joe Biden is lying about Trump's statements.
		The media is lying about Trump's statements.
		They're falsely framed what's actually going on.
		And Joe Biden is the guy who sold contracts, got his brother contracts in Iraq.
		This is military-industrial complex times 10. I'll take Trump.
		Then you come to 2024 and Donald Trump says, we're going to bring in Tulsi Gabbard, RFK Jr., Elon Musk.
		We're going to bring in a coalition of liberals to help lead foreign policy and economic decisions.
		And no new wars, blah, blah, blah.
		We're going to set peace.
		And I'm like, well, this is the most functionally appropriate thing to select, which I will.
unidentified		But then he lied, right?
		About what?
		Well, he's like, for example, the Gaza war rollout has exploded under him because essentially the war council was having the brakes pumped on them super hard.
		He is literally celebrating the idea of basically steamrolling Gaza and displacing all of the citizens.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Have you been following the news?
unidentified		Huh?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Have you been following the news on this one?
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He recently came out and told Israel he was breaking from them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		He doesn't want to be involved in their wars.
unidentified		Do you remember why?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Iran.
unidentified		What do you mean Iran?
unidentified		To avoid a war.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		To avoid a war with Iran.
		He said, we're going to stop supporting you because you're pushing too hard.
		Israel said they're going to engage in strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities.
		And Tulsi Gabbard told Trump, don't do it.
		And Trump said, we won't.
		Tulsi Gabbard was excellent, excellent choice.
		Man, if we got Kamala Harris in there, holy shit.
unidentified		And another, I mean, this brings it back to the topic.
		Why are men leaving?
		I mean, we don't want to be.
		Fighting the wars.
		I mean, I think we realize who's going to be sent overseas.
		I'll just kind of own.
		I'm not like pro-war because I see war as like the most tragic evil thing.
		Yeah, I'm not saying you are.
		But I see war as an absolute necessity.
		I will say, yeah, I think Democrats are more pro-war than they let on.
		They like to pretend.
		They like to do this thing where they're pretending that, oh, we're just doing our thing here.
		Yeah, we're nice and sweet.
		And then really we're fighting three problems.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'll put it this way.
		As a liberal, as a liberal, I see Donald Trump He did.
		I see him rejecting DEI, which is a violation of the Civil Rights Act and illegal.
		And I see him bringing on Tulsi Gabbard for national security, RFK Jr. for health, and I'm like, wow.
		This is the first time I've actually gotten, like, liberal administrative policy in the federal government because Obama wasn't doing it.
		Obama was blowing up children overseas.
		So I've said numerous times, Obama should be criminally investigated, impeached, and charged for the killing of Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki, and Donald Trump should be investigated for the killing of Abdulrahman Al-Awlaki's seven-year-old sister.
		But Donald Trump, as an administration, is eclectic with much more liberal tendency than the Democrats offer.
		Again, the reason why I think young men are leaving is, for one, It's not just ideology.
		It's literally just conservatives had babies 18 years ago.
		So that's a big function of it.
		But what we did see is among the Gen Z that were 25 five years ago and that are now, or I should say 24, and they're now entering the late 20s, we have seen an uptick in anti-LGBTQ, anti-gay marriage, pro-Jesus.
		so that shift has happened a little bit.
		And I think it's largely due to the fact that if you were looking at it objectively or pragmatically or rationally, you're saying...
		Yeah, I don't like Republicans on this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, but they're offering me that, this, and otherwise, and the Democrats are doing nothing, so I'll take Republicans.
unidentified		I'm not sitting here criticizing the voters.
unidentified		That's not what I have issue at.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, I'm just saying that's why they're moving to the right.
unidentified		Well, sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Also, I think they're all lying, right?
unidentified		My problem is that they're doing this based on this idea of they're all lying.
		For example, military complex.
		Okay.
		Musk just got multiple, several multi-million dollar military industrial complex.
		Contracts, right?
		With SpaceX to develop a bunch of tanks, specifically.
		Oh, wow.
		Yeah, and Tesla also got some armored vehicle contracts.
		I don't think that this is good, right?
		For you to be so anti-military and war, right?
		He's been unable to stop the Ukrainian war, which we knew.
		Under his first term, he was doing multiple strikes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Are you sure about this?
unidentified		The Musk stuff?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The tanks, you're referring to like Armored vehicles.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Armored vehicles?
unidentified		Tesla or SpaceX?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maybe Tesla.
		Tesla tanks.
		I don't know.
		SpaceX doesn't come up.
		The SpaceX story that comes up is he got a contract for water tanks.
unidentified		Yule tanks.
		I think SpaceX as well.
		They're considering them for the golden...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't...
		You know, I'm not saying you're wrong.
		I'm just trying to find it.
unidentified		I'm not seeing anything Well, even if we grant that, why is that necessarily wrong?
		I mean, I think there is something to like a peace through strength kind of deal.
		I don't think it's a problem to continue building our military and our defenses.
		Sure.
		Yeah.
		So I believe that America is the best global hegemon that we have ever had, and I want them to stay, and I think that they stay by military power.
		I think fundamentally we must invest in our military.
		Right.
		So even if we grant that that's true what you said, why is it a problem necessarily?
		It's a problem if Trump is saying he's anti-war.
		And then he's engaging in all sorts of Warhawk behavior, just like everyone else.
		Yeah, but is developing the military Warhawk behavior, though?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm going to say this with a caveat.
		I have not been able to locate any source on SpaceX or Tesla getting access to tanks, and a Google search pulled up nothing.
		I asked ChatGPT, and it says his DoD contract specifically referred to satellite launches, Starlink, and Starshield, spy satellites, and rocket cargo, but no military armored vehicles or anything of that nature.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		So they are getting military contracts just not for tanks but for armored vehicles and cyber spy stuff.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm clarifying this because I went on Joe Rogan and I mentioned that more than half the country is a constitutional carry.
		He said he didn't believe it and then Jamie pulled up a source which was wrong and I said, I guess I was wrong about that.
		And then after I left, I Googled it.
		I was right.
		They just had a bad source.
		Sure.
unidentified		I could be wrong, but it sounds like he's getting potentially some military contracts with at least cyber warfare.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, spy satellites.
unidentified		Tesla, you said, is getting armored vehicles?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Tesla, there were early reports that they were working on an armored electrical vehicle contract that was never put in place.
unidentified		Gotcha.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Elon Musk publicly denied there was ever any such deal.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		That's not super mean.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I got to be honest.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would love it if the U.S. government was giving Elon Musk massive contracts for SpaceX.
unidentified		Sure.
		Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at.
		Like, even if we grant it for the sake of the argument, why is it bad?
		Yeah, you're asking why it's bad.
		I'm just curious.
		So, it's not bad.
		What I'm pointing to is this idea that everyone lies.
		No, but you said it was bad.
		You've got to let me finish, right?
		So you guys said, well, the left is lying.
		I'm like, yeah, probably did.
		Every time the leftists are like, we're anti-war.
		I'm like, no, you're not.
		You're all war hawks and you have to be war hawks.
		The entire axis of resistance wants to kill everyone.
		The reality is we're all going to have to be war hawks to some extent.
		So what I brought up before was the war hawk behavior where we both agree that we're actually engaged in proxy wars, etc.
		Not that we still aren't, but we're trying to dial that back.
		But then you said that...
		because they're giving the contracts, that's somehow not a piece.
		I would say like his initial support of the Gaza rollout, the Houthi attacks, the increased No, but specifically giving contracts to SpaceX.
		I was just trying to figure out why that's bad or why that's bad.
		If we're just building a military defense.
		If you're anti-military industrial complex, you probably shouldn't be giving more contracts to more and new companies that were never military industrial complex beforehand.
		My point is that I think the military complex, the military industrial complex, whenever we talk about that, we're usually talking about the involvement and constantly being in hot wars, not necessarily just building up defense.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so that's why I like new companies.
unidentified		Cold wars and proxy wars are okay, but hot war is not good?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So let's break that down.
unidentified		We're not actually anti-war.
unidentified		We're just anti-our soldiers going to war.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		Hold on.
		There's going to be conflict and crisis in every capacity.
		If we don't get involved in certain areas of the world, then China does.
		And so what is our means of dealing with this?
		Proxy wars, not so much.
		Cold wars, I kind of get.
		The argument is we should be using soft power.
		I agree.
		That's why I don't fault the United States and NATO for their involvement in Ukraine politics pre-war and why I think Russia was wrong to invade.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The U.S. was using soft power to combat Russian interests, and I think soft power can be aggravating, but it's the way we should handle things.
unidentified		But also hard power, right?
unidentified		Like in the case of the Houthis, I think Trump had no other option, but then to kind of like nuke them out of orbit, they were basically shutting down the entire canal, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Left you on that one, I guess.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm decent.
		I'm for sure.
		So that's fair.
		But this is the same thing that I would grant.
		Like, I think Obama having multiple strikes on terroristic cells was okay.
		Like, I don't think it's always okay.
		I'm sure you could point to me multiple drone shots.
		And I'm like, yeah, that was bad.
		Bush, not so good.
		But this idea that like, we just allowed.
		I'm not pro-Trump.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You said it was good that he bombed the Houthis.
unidentified		I'm not.
		Well, here's the issue.
		Not being deranged.
		No, not being deranged about Trump doesn't mean I'm not pro-Trump.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		These are gotchas.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm just screwing.
unidentified		Yeah, yeah.
		It means I'm a good.
		What it actually means here is that I'm a good faith interlocutor.
		I can grant Trump his wins, right?
		I'm totally fine with that.
		I have no issues with Trump doing good policies.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You don't call rapists, terrorists, austere scholars?
unidentified		Trump?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So when Trump killed the head of ISIS, Washington Post called him an austere scholar.
		What does that even mean?
		He was like a guy who kidnapped and raped women and had women trapped in his basement.
unidentified		I think it was an awesome thing that he basically decimated ISIS.
		I have no problem with it.
		I think it was good that we got Saddam Hussein.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They changed it.
		Liberals.
		Abu Bakir al-Baghdadi, extremist leader of Islamic State, dies at 48. Wait, that guy's 48?
		I ain't looking too good, right?
unidentified		That's rough.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's pull up the original.
unidentified		It's rough for 48. And been out in the sun a lot, so.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Here's the first one.
		Where is it?
		I love this website.
		Let me see if I can...
		Here's the original article.
		Abu Bakir al-Baghdadi, austere religious scholar at home of Islamic State, dies at 48. Wow.
unidentified		Austere religious scholar.
unidentified		That's crazy.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So, I mean...
unidentified		Yeah, we should probably talk about men at some point, too.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We did, we did.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But I think we talked a lot about ideology, and we're forgetting that liberals don't have kids.
unidentified		Yes, true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so the reason why we're seeing a young Gen Z be shifting rightward is actually kind of simple.
		There's a lot less younger Gen Z than older Gen Z. That just means it's not an issue of winning a culture war.
		A large component of this is quite literally Christians just had more kids, so that's reflected in the data 18 years later.
unidentified		Maybe, but this is, I think, almost always been true historically, that conservatives typically have more children than liberals.
		Like, I think this is true not just in the last 20 years.
		I think this is true for, like, the last century.
		The issue is that before, the left was really effective at essentially their kids would go to college and their kids would become left, right?
		Which is why typically we see through all of generations except for Gen Z that millennials, for example, are much further left than their parents, right?
		And then as they age, they shift towards being more moderate.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's see.
		So far, the only data that comes up is from the 2000s onward.
		What about 1970s, right?
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let's see, they say about 1970.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It was becoming observable with the rise of second wave feminism and birth control.
unidentified		That the conservatives were having more kids.
unidentified		But yet, their children were still going liberal, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Actually, no.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Gen X is the generation that gave Trump his victory.
unidentified		Millennials.
unidentified		Millennials are their children, and those children are predominantly left.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		1970?
unidentified		The children of the people in 1970, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I see what you're saying.
unidentified		So we've been left for young people until recently.
unidentified		That's why this election is such big news.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		So I agree with you.
		In 1970, the Gen Xers who were born ended up leaning conservative in the 2024 election.
unidentified		In the 2024, but they were leaning left all the way up until then.
		And millennials, even when they were 20, were leaning left.
		It's only recent.
		So I don't know if it's the—I think it's not a bad theory.
		I just don't know if that's borne out with a historical timeline.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I agree.
unidentified		I think it's ideology.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It is more likely ideology.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think, for one thing, men have no purpose, and religion gives them one.
unidentified		Yep.
		I would agree with that broadly.
		Um, I don't know if I'd say like the, the right is doing the best at religion necessarily.
		Cause I think Trump is like fundamentally like very anti-religious, but they are more religious.
		I think what he's saying, like as men are becoming more religious, they're, they're going to fall into that camp.
		Sure, but lots of conservatives are atheists.
		Tons and tons of conservatives are atheists.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's only one reason men are going to the left, and it's because they watch those Charlie Kirk videos where he owns the libs.
unidentified		True.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And they were just like, yo!
		And they don't know anything that's going on.
		They just like saying yo.
		I'm half kidding.
unidentified		I think men are down.
		I think men are down bad.
		Like, hard.
		And I think, yeah.
		And they have been fucked over by history.
		I would say, like, people cite, like, the 1970s.
		I don't know if you've ever seen the website, like, what the fuck happened in 1971.
		But essentially, there's a bunch of, like, crazy graphs that start exploding after 1971.
		but I think men have this history where they have an entire generation wiped out in World War II and then all the dads that did come back had PTSD and then the They died, had PTSD, and we had nothing else to offer them.
		And the only men that stayed back were the men that wouldn't go to war, which is not your prototypical man.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is another reason why I think a lot of guys are moving away from the left.
		Liberals are the pro-war party.
		And maybe that's just in platitudes.
		You know, one example I love to give is when I actually was defending Hassan Piker.
		And I said, I agree.
		Like, I think we agree, both he and I, about the military industrial complex getting too much money.
		We don't want to be involved in these wars.
		And that's why I think our involvement in Ukraine is wrong.
		He immediately made a reaction where he mocked me.
		He agreed with me on the military industrial complex and then said, yo, this guy wants to, like, just leave Ukraine.
		What?
		This guy's pro-Ukraine war?
		How does that make sense?
		Democrats are pro-war.
unidentified		Yeah, I think any sane politician fundamentally recognizes that America needs to remain as the hegemonic superpower, and something like Ukraine is something that has to be responded to in some degree because of such a massive breach in sovereignty.
unidentified		I think if there isn't a response there, then we are moving towards a global hot war.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
unidentified		I can't vote in America.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, I think like women in the United States...
unidentified		Like you want to tie the vote to the draft?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, 100%.
unidentified		But that's never been the case.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right.
unidentified		It's always been citizenship.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's actually been more than that, right?
unidentified		Well, before it was land ownership and citizenship, but now it's just citizenship.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the issue I take with this is that I say women shouldn't be allowed to vote as a hyperbolic statement meant to cause shock so that people will go, oh.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But what I'm actually saying is – To touch on what you guys were talking about, I think some of that even too is unintentional, that they're the more pro-war party, that they're heading towards a hot war.
unidentified		Because if you're continuing to, like you were saying, you know, men are looking for a sort of empowerment and, you know, abandoning the kind of guilt that's being laid upon them.
		If we continue to feminize all of our males in society and make them sit down and shut up and behave and, you know, you're sort of inviting in because you...
		You become kind of like a sitting duck or a target.
		Yeah, I think tying the vote to the draft is like super unprecedented.
		I don't know almost any democracy that does that in large part because it's like, okay, so what?
		Just like disabled men also can't vote?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can serve in a bunch of ways.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You don't go to war.
unidentified		Oh, so just as long as women serve in any way at the war, then they can vote too.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Not about war.
		Right?
		So, I mean, like, we've had selective service, and we haven't had a draft since the 70s, and it's largely considered ineffective.
		My proposal is that you have to sign up for selective service to receive your voter card.
unidentified		Sure.
		I just, like, think that women, like, just like disabled men can go to war, so can women.
		And I think if women want to vote, then, and under that system, which I reject the draft idea tying it to voting, because I don't think it makes a good voter in any way.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can clean up garbage at a park.
unidentified		We could just have mandatory service to the military also.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can clean up garbage at a park.
unidentified		What, the disabled soldier?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You, a woman.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying you don't have to go to war to provide service to your community.
unidentified		Neither does a disabled man.
unidentified		Indeed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		As long as you're doing something to assist your community.
		My issue right now in the extreme is that women are not drafted.
		Senate will not let them be drafted.
		Conservatives will not let them be drafted.
		But they can vote collectively to send men off to die.
		Yeah, young men are going to reject that outright and be like, all these millennial women.
		These cat ladies are voting for us to go to war in Ukraine?
		That I'm going to have to fight?
		I'm 22 years old and I got to go die because these lunatics?
unidentified		This is the tit for tit of citizenship is that everyone gets to vote on things that fundamentally apply exclusively to other groups regardless of whether that...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, it doesn't.
unidentified		Who else carries babies?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The issue of abortion affects fathers.
		Not the same way it affects women.
		This is another reason men are leaving.
unidentified		Wait, wait, wait.
		War affects women then.
		If you're going to attach a degree of separation, war affects women because their husbands and sons are going to war.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't disagree with that.
unidentified		So then your argument has been nullified.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		My argument is that you can send me to die.
unidentified		You can make a woman have to carry a baby.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I think we can either make it so that men have no obligation to the woman.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which they currently do, regardless of what they choose.
unidentified		I agree that that should be changed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yet women don't have the same caveats when it comes to war.
unidentified		I'm fine with changing that.
		Agreed.
		The issue is that I don't think the draft should ever be tied to the vote.
		What does the draft have to do with it?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm talking about service guaranteeing citizenship.
unidentified		Okay, so what does service include?
unidentified		Just like serving your community?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Okay, sure, I guess.
		I mean, there's the army engineer corps.
		You can be in the military and not go to.
		Sure, I'm fine with that.
		I would just basically be like, yeah, the fact that women aren't fully barred from that is just positive sexism that's remaining.
		We should probably get rid of that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But conservatives are the ones who actually oppose it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They don't want women in combat.
unidentified		Of course, because conservatives are probably the most staunchly positive sexist and negative sexist, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So my point, going back to what you were saying about voting on things that affect other people, is the Constitution and the Civil Rights Act are supposed to be the remedies for that.
		That if you are discriminated against in this capacity, we can sue and actually stop these laws from happening.
		So interestingly, we got rid of segregation.
		You can marry whoever you want.
		But when it comes to selective service, only men.
		It's clearly unconstitutional.
		And every time it's challenged, it's actually Democrats who challenge it and largely the female Democrats.
		It's conservative to say, no, women should not be drafted.
		And yeah, I don't think women should be in combat roles.
		Maybe I will caveat that with, I mean, ground infantry, special forces, Navy SEALs.
		There are certain combat affiliated roles women can absolutely do.
unidentified		Artillery.
unidentified		They can do artillery.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Or yeah, or like logistics, combat, like providing intelligence.
		Basically pressing the buttons to launch the missiles.
		There's combat roles there.
unidentified		As long as they meet the minimum threshold for that job physically, they can do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So there's no reason they should be exempt from selective service.
		It's just about where a person...
		And it depends on the disability.
unidentified		Yeah, I mean, I'm just here for you on this.
		Like, going to Israel and watching the fact that you've got both men and women in the military.
		They have to go, and they've got this entire civilization, like, citizenry that has a knowledge of guns, that has a knowledge of violence, and understands how to respond to high-risk situations.
		I just think it's a good thing, and not that I'm saying that we should have a mandatory draft.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		She thinks Israel's a good thing.
unidentified		As a country?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm kidding.
unidentified		I mean, sure, like 75%.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm not super happy with what they're doing right now.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I was just screwing around because I know that that one gets everybody super heated.
unidentified		Yes, it does.
unidentified		It does.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But I don't like...
		I don't like mandatory service in the way they do it.
		I do think this country would benefit from – we've bounced around a few ideas of like to graduate high school, you have to do like a month of basic training or something.
		Where I grew up, you have to do 20 hours of community service to graduate because the idea was you have to provide a communal service.
		And then everyone bitched about it and it became nothing.
		I'm saying like, nah, basic training.
		And I think it's fun.
		I think for a month you go to a summer camp basically and you crawl through the mud and you climb stuff and you do push-ups.
unidentified		Yeah, that would solve our birthright issue.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How so?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean?
unidentified		If you do basic training that's co-ed, everyone's going to fuck like crazy.
		Of course.
		This is obviously true.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, in the military, they let women do whatever they want.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The basic training for women is nonsensical.
unidentified		Well, I would obviously oppose that, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		I'm pretty pragmatic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, the issue is like in the U.S. military, this is the thing about we tried having this blank slate government of civil rights.
		And then people are like, yeah, everybody's actually different, and creating these universal policies didn't actually work.
		Like, men and women are different?
		That's the easy thing.
		The race thing doesn't really make sense.
		Racial discrimination makes literally no sense because a black guy from Somalia is going to be 5 '5", and a black guy from Haiti is going to be 6 '3".
		You can't just be like black people because that doesn't mean anything.
		But men and women largely does mean something.
		So what ends up happening is the military says, women get potty breaks because they have to have them for hygiene reasons.
		If women cry, We'll get sued.
		Send them home.
		Men, shut up and do push-ups.
		So, like, clearly something doesn't make sense in any of this stuff.
unidentified		I mean, what are your positions on conscription?
		I mean, I guess both of you.
		I mean, I think it would probably be.
		Yeah, me too.
		I mean, I think at least a year or so.
		I mean, right out of high school, you go do something.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't agree with that.
unidentified		Like mandated?
		Like the government's forcing you into it?
		Like Israel does?
		I think, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think that in the time of invasion of the homeland, conscription is a good thing.
unidentified		Yeah, I think Israel should do it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Otherwise, no.
unidentified		I don't think America should.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The United States should conscript any and all able-bodied individuals for any and all jobs they need in the event that the United States is invaded.
unidentified		Yes.
		I agree.
		But I just feel like it would help pull some of this culture a little bit together as well, too.
		And people who are having to go and serve and go into the military.
		That's what I mean.
		I don't think the leftist would be like me.
		I think a lot of that fantasy-like ideology, utopia.
		The left would be me.
		This idea that the left is just weak and soy and all this sort of stuff, it depends on what you mean.
		If you mean left as far as principles, there are lots of us that are left that are principled, that are not cowardly, that understand that violence sometimes has to happen.
		And it's a tragedy when it does.
		And we are pragmatic in our solutions to making a better world.
		This left does exist.
		It has been stomped on over and over again from both sides, by the way.
		The worst part about my position is that all of you are nasty to me.
		I get doxxed and swatted from all of you guys.
		And so there's this issue where it's like if you want a good left, which in a two party system, you want a good left, just like we want a good.
		The leftists are, yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The disaffected liberals are not.
unidentified		No, the far right is.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, we don't like them either.
unidentified		Sure.
		The issue that I'm saying is in this conversation, I've had to spend 80% of the conversation pointing at leftists and being like, yeah, I think that is crazy and not good, but that doesn't mean that I'm not left.
		Because those are the people that are the general audience.
		And work with me to help make a better world.
		Well, I mean, that's part of this, is calling it out.
		If trans stuff is less than 1%, just let us have some trans stuff.
		Just let us.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that mean?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You want to cut kids' balls off?
unidentified		No, passports.
		Passports and allowing them to transition if their insurance wants to cover it.
		This is like Democrats with gun laws.
		I'm like, come on, guys.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not.
unidentified		Just work reasonably with Republicans.
		It's not reasonable to put faith.
		And it's like, yeah, I get it.
		Trans people are really, really, really, really scary.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, that's bullshit.
		You know it's bullshit.
		Come on.
		You claim you're reasonable.
		You said people are scared of trans people.
		No.
unidentified		I'm, of course, being hyperbolic.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're not going to change government documents because some people's fifis are hurt.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Sorry.
unidentified		That's not at all what I'm talking about, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's literally no functional reason to have the wrong sex on your ID.
unidentified		There's no functional reason necessarily to have sex on the passport.
		You could easily just have gender.
		You could easily do that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There is a functional reason, actually.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Identify you.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
		Just have criteria for gender.
		If you want to identify as a woman, you have to have a whole number of things that include with you.
		And your sex has to be on some other form of ID.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There is...
unidentified		You can have other IDs that force sex.
		You can just do this.
		I'm not opposed to having sex identification.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There is limited reason.
		At all for listing biological sex on identification.
		However, there is reason to do it when it makes sense and there is none to change it.
		That is, medical purposes make sense and in issues of where the law pertains make sense.
unidentified		How is the passport relevant to medical issues?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If you are a man, you have different organs than if you are a woman.
unidentified		How does a passport have to do?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's an ID.
unidentified		Most people are just carrying around their passport.
unidentified		Isn't it mostly driver's ID?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, actually, a lot of people carry passports instead of IDs.
unidentified		In America?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, they do.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Interesting.
unidentified		Does anybody have their government ID or driver's license?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would say a good portion of people who work here don't have IDs.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They have passports.
unidentified		Okay, my driver's license from Alberta.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		A good portion, three or four maybe.
unidentified		My driver's license from Alberta has basically all of my medical decorations.
		In Canada, we put all of our medical decorations on our driver's license because that's the thing people actually care about because the passport, if you lose it, is a nightmare of a situation.
		So if I lose my driver's ID, it's not a big deal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Did I put the wrong age on my ID?
unidentified		No, but there's absolutely space in the ID in Canada for gender and sex.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do you know how old I am?
unidentified		I would guess in your mid-30s to 40s.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		How old do you think I am?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		40s?
unidentified		Oh my god.
unidentified		Mid-30s to 40s.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Give me a number.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		36. I'm 39. Do I look 36?
unidentified		Who knows?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That was the guess you made because you- You've got a lot of accrued wealth.
unidentified		I'm assuming you're not in your 20s and you have like some.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Can I put that on my ID?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You can put your age on your Why not?
unidentified		for date of birth typically.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but what if like, you know, Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And what if I want to go to those countries?
unidentified		That's why date of birth verification is super important.
unidentified		Like you can't lie about your date of birth.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
unidentified		For date of birth verification.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that functionally do?
unidentified		I'm not asking people to lie about their sex.
		I'm asking passports to not have sex on it.
		I'm saying it should probably have gender so that trans women are outed when they go international.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why does it matter if age is on it?
unidentified		Your date of birth.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that matter?
unidentified		It's tied to your SIN.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		To your SIN?
unidentified		Oh, sorry.
		You guys have SSN.
		Yeah.
		SIN in Canada is the SSN.
		I was like, what?
		It applies to what you carry, the cross you have on your back.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What's the functional difference between age and sex?
unidentified		Typically your performance, people don't tie nearly as much to age post-18, whereas people tie a lot socially script-wise to your gender.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What if you're 40 but you feel 25?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like Brian Johnson.
unidentified		I think, say for example...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Should he be allowed to put that on his ID?
unidentified		I'll tell you what.
unidentified		If there's a whole bunch of Brian Johnsons that emerge and we identify that there seems to be a collective sequelae of behavior patterns that keep occurring all the time, that the DSM recognizes as occurring all the time because I'm pro-criteria for trans and for gender.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This does exist.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's called the midlife crisis.
unidentified		Sure, but it's not something that can get treated.
		For example, if we showed that this group was suiciding at an astronomical rate, higher than schizophrenia, by the way, and it shows that if you put 25 on their ID, it might reduce their suicidality by 70%.
		I might even be open to that argument.
		I just think it doesn't exist.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So we don't have to have it.
		Every day on Fox and Friends, and it's probably just targeting me because I'm 39, it's the most annoying commercial ever.
		I hate it.
		I hate this product.
		I hate these people.
		It's the guy who goes, most men over 40 look in the mirror and see this.
		And it shows a guy with liver spots.
		And then he says it again.
		Most men over 40 look in the mirror and see this.
		And it shows a guy with his teeth falling out or something.
		I'm exaggerating.
		And then he's like, buy this special cream that tightens your skin to make you young.
		And I can't stand it.
		I'm like, dude, just be old.
		My beard's turning white.
		And people, when I first started getting white in my beard, I kept getting comments where they're like, Tim, you got something on your face.
		Because they didn't realize it was just like three white hairs.
		It was a piece of fuzz.
		And I did not do anything about it.
		So the fact is, there are a lot of men who are going through an identity crisis where they're buying just for men.
		They're doing ridiculous things like putting particle cream on their face or wearing beanies to cover up their male pattern baldness.
		Things like that because they're having an identity crisis and they should be allowed to change their passports to say they're young.
unidentified		Nope.
		What I said is that they shouldn't be allowed to change their date of birth because their date of birth is tied to their SSN.
		And that's fundamental.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So is your gender.
unidentified		Your sexes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Your sex.
		Sorry, you're correct.
		Right.
		So we shouldn't be allowed to change your sex because it's tied to your SSN.
unidentified		Of course not.
unidentified		I've never said that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So on your passport, it should say your biological sex.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		said you should probably do gender if if there's if there's good reason that trans people are worried about that yeah you should be able to have a So I should say sex M, gender W. The Democrats should have never tried to force the way through by using sex in the first place.
unidentified		They should have always been sticking to gender, and they should have been consistent about that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So you agree that Trump was right to keep it aligned with your SSM?
unidentified		I disagree with his change now because it was only petty and jabby, like changing the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It was just petty shit.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, so he's a petty asshole, but functionally it's the right thing to be doing.
unidentified		Mmm, no, I think if he wanted to do the functional thing he would...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Or remove sex and gender altogether.
unidentified		I don't know if it's that important.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Your biological sex and date of birth should be what they are because it aligns with your SSN.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And functionally, that's the right thing to do.
unidentified		Correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
unidentified		Identification.
		Your sex should never be changed legally in any way, shape or form.
		I'm opposed to that.
		Right?
		Which is why I opposed the idea of having passports doing sex changes for trans people.
		I always think that the conversation should have been functionally either, I don't know enough about all of the details of passports, but can gender just be removed?
		Because I don't know if it's actually important for passports.
		You've got passport number, date of birth, location.
		There's so much identifying information that is sex actually.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What if there's like a big fat woman with like stubble?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You kind of can't tell if she's a man or a woman.
unidentified		It doesn't matter.
unidentified		She knows the name, the date of birth, and she matches.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But she does identify as a woman, and she is a female.
		And then she goes and someone calls her sir.
		And then she's like, I am a woman.
		What about that?
		Her ID should say woman.
		What do you think I'm arguing?
unidentified		Engage with me or engage not with me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Her gender is coded male, but she doesn't identify that way and she doesn't want the passport to say it.
unidentified		She's got like polycystic ovarian syndrome?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, she's a fat woman with stubble or something.
unidentified		Women don't grow stubble typically, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They do, yeah, sometimes.
unidentified		No, they have polycystic, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, sometimes they just give up.
unidentified		Do you guys know what polycystic ovarian syndrome is?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, PCOS.
unidentified		PCOS, yeah.
unidentified		So typically when women are growing beards, they have that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm not saying she has a beard.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying some women, they'll get older and they'll get stubble.
unidentified		Okay, they're just like growing extra facial hair?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This happens.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, let's just stop.
unidentified		Hold on.
		What do you think I'm advocating for?
		Rather than creating these strong and funny versions of what I'm saying.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying you said the passport should be gender coded, right?
unidentified		Gender or maybe gender removed.
unidentified		I'm open to a lot of options, to be clear.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What if a woman is very masculine and manly and appears like a guy?
unidentified		Maybe that's a good argument for why we should abolish gender or sex from passports and have it exclusively on driver's license.
		But it's still identifying, you know, like paperwork.
		If you don't have your license on you, you get in a car accident.
		All you have on you is your passport.
		It should have your sex.
		Emergency services can help you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We've got to perform an emergency hysterectomy on this, ma 'am!
unidentified		I've already said I'm open to a lot of strategies on the passport.
		This idea that it has to be my idea isn't what I'm advocating for.
		I'm saying caring about trans people being able to safely travel internationally.
		actually does matter, and we should be able to have a pragmatic conversation about ways to solve this.
		That's bullshit.
		I'm sorry if we don't solve for the vulnerable population.
		You've got to let me finish talking.
		To be honest.
		If you say that you care about vulnerable populations, then the reality is that these are the niche things that you have to make policy on, and you have to be pragmatic about it.
		And I think the left wasn't pragmatic about it, which is bad.
		But the right is also not being pragmatic.
		You're being angry.
		That's not a good solution.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't even think it's angry.
unidentified		I agree.
unidentified		I think it's indifferent.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I understand your worldview.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You think we should intervene in Ukraine?
unidentified		Like soldiers on the ground?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Just in some capacity.
unidentified		Support Ukraine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We should be involved in some way.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so when you're talking about the trans issue with being able to travel to other countries, there's a kind of like American exceptionalist view that you have.
unidentified		I believe the government should protect its citizens and do its best to find pragmatic solutions to protect those citizens in all sorts of ways.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, and so my view is...
unidentified		I understand your argument.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		And so that's why I don't think we should be in Ukraine.
		And the point I'm making is you think there should be some degree of involvement in Ukraine because of the issue of sovereignty.
		And your view is we in the West have the authority, nay, the liberty.
unidentified		Wait, I don't think you know what my Ukrainian position is based on what you said.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You said we should be involved in some capacity to support the Ukrainians.
unidentified		Yeah.
unidentified		So when I say sovereignty, what do you think I mean by that?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ukraine sovereignty.
unidentified		Two.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Their land.
unidentified		Where's their land?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ukraine.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Gotcha.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		U.S. involvement in that country is a form of American exceptionalism.
unidentified		How?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The U.S. having the right to intervene in a foreign war 8,000 miles away?
		Why would the U.S. have the right to go into Ukraine?
		We're across an ocean on the other side of the planet.
unidentified		Didn't you just say that you were pro-Cold War?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Soft power.
unidentified		Soft power is this.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, it's not.
		Yes, it is.
		American special forces are on the ground.
unidentified		If you don't deal with the Russian sovereignty breached in Ukraine, you are moving towards hot war between high powers.
unidentified		That is reality.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		U.S. special forces are on the ground.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		U.S. special forces are in Ukraine right now.
unidentified		Are they frontline?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		And they're providing intelligence and military assets.
		And it was the U.S. that sank the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet of Russia.
		We are not talking about, what's her face, Victoria Nuland.
		Aiding through USAID protest groups in Ukraine to be pro-EU.
		Soft power I'm okay with.
		We do that to avoid hot kinetic war.
		When Russia invaded, that's a point where we're like, they've gone to a hot conflict and we do not escalate beyond where we are.
		Instead, U.S. sent in special forces, U.S. spent in I'm not super familiar with this.
		Probably 2022.
		Intercept reported it.
		U.S. special forces.
		The game that the West is playing is the American troops that are on the ground?
		Volunteers.
		The special forces?
		Just providing intel.
unidentified		Do you mind?
unidentified		Because I know you were saying that people often say that they don't understand, and I know that I don't know this, so I don't want to put the burden on you to always search these things.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Oh, man.
		2022, is that when they reported it?
		Let's see here.
		One former special, I think it was Delta Force.
		I could be wrong.
unidentified		And you said Frontline, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		So now let's clarify.
		They are not pulling the trigger.
		And that's the point I was making.
		The game that they're playing is the U.S. individuals that are trained by the military and former military that are shooting at Russians are volunteers.
		And the special forces that work for the United States that are there are providing intelligence.
		But if a U.S. special forces looks at a Ukrainian guy and says, if you press that button, it'll launch a U.S. rocket and blow up a Russian vessel.
		You cannot claim that Russia is doing it.
		The U.S. is not doing it.
		This is hot war.
unidentified		Now we're having, like, these loophole issues of Americans who believe in the Ukrainian war want to support it and are militarily trained.
		I looked it up, right?
		It's important to know that individual American volunteers have joined Ukrainian forces independently.
		For instance, U.S. and Iraq war veterans.
		John A. Peepley was killed in Ukraine while serving the Ukrainian.
		These individuals act on their own accord and are not sent by official U.S. military deployment.
		The U.S. has not sent troops to Ukraine to engage in combat whatsoever, and there are no current plans to do so, right?
		Americans are going to and they're volunteers and it's like Americans can choose to do that.
		Just like Israel-Americans, a lot of them went to Israel on October 7th to join up on the IDF.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There you go.
		2023.
		It was reported earlier in several months prior by The Intercept that Western Special Forces were on the ground directing the combat operations for Ukraine.
		U.S. personnel actively pulling the trigger and shooting, but they're former military.
		Former.
		Not under the command of...
		I love this.
		U.S. Special Forces and U.S. intelligence direct the Ukrainians who direct their volunteers who are American.
		This is a hot conflict.
		It's a hot war.
		The U.S. is involved, and we've got U.S. military in Poland training people for this conflict.
unidentified		If this is a hot conflict, then most of our proxy wars were hot conflicts directly between Russia and U.S. And it's just not, right?
unidentified		I understand that you're looking at this and being like, this is a loophole, which I might even grant.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Vietnam was a proxy war with the communists, but we were actively fighting the Viet Cong.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The U.S. was in Vietnam aiding— I'm at least referencing Middle East, right?
unidentified		That's typically the areas that we mean when we say Cold War proxy wars.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The reason why this is not a proxy war is that U.S. individuals under the guidance of Ukraine, under the guidance of U.S. Special Forces and U.S. intel, are shooting at Russians directly.
		We have U.S. citizens shooting Russians.
		In the former proxy wars of the Cold War, like in North Korea and in Vietnam, U.S. troops were aiding the forces there to fight the other forces there.
unidentified		Are U.S. troops not allowed to volunteer?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're not U.S. troops.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're former veterans and contractors who volunteer.
unidentified		Are U.S. citizens not allowed to volunteer with foreign militaries?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're allowed to volunteer wherever they want.
unidentified		Are they being funded directly by the American military?
unidentified		Is the American military paying these people to go?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You want to play?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We can play a game of semantics.
unidentified		It's not a game of semantics at a legal level, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We can play a game of semantics and say they are not directly funded by the American.
		This is what you're going to get from, like, the defense secretary.
		He's going to say, no U.S. dollars are being spent to send these people to Ukraine.
		They are there of their own volition.
		And they want the truth.
		but we do give the money to Ukraine and tell them to pay these guys.
		So the volunteers who join the Ukraine foreign Well, they call it a volunteer coalition, but the private military contractors get paid.
unidentified		Sure.
unidentified		They go there, and they probably get some money from the Ukrainian government for what they're doing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which is American money funneled through the Ukrainian government.
unidentified		Not just American money, though, right?
		It's Ukrainian money, American money, and probably EU money and British money.
		Sure.
		Mostly US money.
		Yeah, probably NATO money, I think, would be the most comfortable way to say it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Which is the US.
unidentified		The issue is that, are you saying that basically the US should ban those American citizens from going?
unidentified		No.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I'm saying U.S. should not have special forces on the ground like the BBC reported in 2023.
unidentified		So they should ban them from going?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		U.S. special forces were ordered to go.
unidentified		If you're an ex-Marine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no, no.
		U.S. special forces are active duty personnel ordered to go to Ukraine.
		That should not have happened.
		If you're a former military and you want to go to Uzbekistan, I don't care.
		If you want to go fight for whatever.
unidentified		They were fighting front line?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		On the ground.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Call it what you want.
unidentified		Well, what does that mean?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It means they're in control of the operations that are happening and they're giving direction to the Ukrainians.
unidentified		First of all, you need to have evidence to support all these cranes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Is the BBC...
unidentified		They're on the ground.
		They're controlling the Ukrainian military operations.
		That's a pretty big leap.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's what's happening.
unidentified		You need evidence for that.
unidentified		Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		To be fair, like I said, in the philosophy of truth, we largely believe these things based on the reports that we get from the corporate press who lie quite a bit.
unidentified		So this is your evidence that not only they're on the ground, but they're controlling the Ukrainian government.
unidentified		Ukrainian military, sorry.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You know what the challenge is, to be honest?
unidentified		I'm just saying you need extraordinary evidence for that claim.
unidentified		You could be right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I can sit here.
unidentified		You could be right.
		You have to find not just one or two articles saying somebody hearsay said this.
		You need to find dollars moved.
		You need to show that the U.S. is actively supporting this, even if it's under tongue-in-cheek.
		You need to show evidence that Ukrainian soldiers are being controlled by these individuals and that they're high up in the Ukrainian military government.
		If they're in charge of a platoon, We're stretching the definitions of these things at this point.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		My point is that U.S. special forces, active duty, are in Ukraine.
		They are doing what's called operational coordination.
		Here's the simple way of describing it.
		The U.S. says, here's where their ships are and here are some missiles.
		If you press that button, it'll blow it up.
		Yeah, that's U.S. involvement in a war with Russia.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So then why hasn't Russia claimed that they violated— So why aren't they striking US or NATO?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because that would expand the war beyond the borders of Ukraine, and Russia's not prepared to do that.
unidentified		Right.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And because Russia won.
unidentified		Won which?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Russia has largely won the war as of right now.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I largely just think, like, you know, Trump's getting really pissed because Putin isn't...
unidentified		Their roles included providing security for VIPs and assisting with oversight of U.S. equipment and supplies being sent to Ukraine.
unidentified		That's your evidence that they're controlling the Ukrainian military.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You're going to have to find more evidence than that because that's one article you pulled up and not just here to say he should.
unidentified		Well, hold on.
		I'm agnostic.
		You have to find the evidence.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		I'm asking you for it.
		I don't have to find it.
		The only evidence I have weakens a lot of what you're saying because they're at the embassy which they're allowed to be at and they're providing security for VIPs.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That's one article.
		That's your own logic being used right back at you.
		You understand that, right?
unidentified		No, I'm agnostic to this.
		You have the affirmative claim.
		You must prove.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		And then you found one article that you thought asserted a truth and used it to make your point.
		My argument is the same argument you made.
		If you're going to make a claim that special forces are only at the embassy, you need more proof than just that article.
unidentified		If I'm going to be good faith to just ask your questions and read out what I find, that doesn't mean that you can go, see, that proves that they were controlling the Ukraine military.
		No, it doesn't.
		All it proves is that there were...
		That doesn't show anything that you're claiming.
		Because you said...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Let me make my point.
		I'll make my point.
		I've been covering the Ukraine war since it started.
		I can tell you, I was physically in Ukraine when the conflict started.
		I was there twice and I got to witness the collapse of the statue.
		I got to go to the Statue of London after it was toppled and people were stealing things from it.
		And in covering this, I have tracked numerous stories from the beginning of the Yom-Aid-N protest movement, which was physically present, to the Burisma scandal, to physically being present in Kiev during the separatist conflicts in 2017.
		And in all of this research...
		These are paid private military contractors, former U.S. military personnel, and there is operational coordination from U.S. special forces on the ground in various capacities.
		In saying all of that, you asked me for proof.
		To be fair, what I was going to say is it's very difficult in the span of 20 minutes to pull up.
		10 years of research, but if I were to start digging through those articles, which I would be happy to do, we're already 20 minutes past time, and it's going to be very difficult.
		You then said you can't pull up one article.
unidentified		That's not what I said.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You said you're going to need extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence, and if you're going to pull up this article, that's a he said, she said, it's not enough, and then you literally pulled up an article of a he said, she said, like a counterclaim.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is the sophistry of which I'm referring.
unidentified		Hold on.
unidentified		Sorry.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Also here, Russia won.
		Here's the proof.
		Russia owns the Donbass.
unidentified		So let's just, like, break down.
		I don't love meta-litigating the conversation, right?
		But what I said, so a really common thinking way to think, a way to purify and ensure that you're not thinking poorly about things is called extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		We're familiar.
unidentified		Okay.
		So what I'm saying is that that article you cited, I found exactly what they were talking about, the special forces that were on the ground, and I showed you this is what they were doing.
		They were at the embassy, securing VIPs, giving them security, and helping facilitate missiles.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		To which your previous point was, a single article is not enough to prove or disprove anything.
unidentified		Correct.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So citing the single article does not prove or disprove anything.
unidentified		Right.
		The issue that you have is you're in the affirmative position.
		I'm agnostic.
		You just have to have a burden of evidence to convince me that this is the case.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed, which is not going to happen in half an hour with 10 years of research.
unidentified		I would argue that if you have 10 years of research, you could probably succinctly list out a fair bit of really strong evidence of at least dollars moving and that front line, these embassy workers, for example, ever being front line, killing Russian soldiers, anything like that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You want me to do a 40-minute treatise on the history of the Ukraine?
		I love this subject.
		What's the Qatar-Turkey pipeline, my favorite launching point?
unidentified		I don't know.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So in 2012, The Guardian reported that the U.S. had been working on a project to build a natural gas pipeline from Qatar through Syria, Turkey into Europe to offset the Russian Gazprom gas monopoly.
		Russia controls about a quarter of natural gas into Europe through Ukraine, which leads to high gas prices in Europe.
		Russia basically controls it.
		So the U.S. went to Syria, the Assad regime, and said, we're going to build this pipeline.
		It's going to provide Europe with cheaper energy.
		It's going to lower the cost across the board.
		Syria then conferred with Russia, their ally, who has a military base in Tartus.
		And Syria came back to the U.S. and said, we're not going to let you do it because it would violate, it would be damaging to the economics of Russia.
		So the U.S., Was upset, obviously, but it got really bad when Russia, Syria, and Iran plotted to then build a rival pipeline from the exact same oil field through Iraq into Syria, Turkey, into Europe to strengthen their monopoly on energy.
		The U.S. got pissed.
		It's around this time that they said the Bashar al-Assad regime needs to go in their terrorists, and that's when we got Operation Timber—what was that one?
		Let me pull this one up.
		See, it's like, you know, Timber—Sycamore.
		Operation Timber Sycamore was when the U.S. started providing weapons and CIA training to various revolutionary factions in Syria, ultimately, which ended up joining al-Nursra and ISIS.
		And that's how we ended up seeing U.S. weapons and training in the hands of ISIS expanding in the region, because the U.S. wanted to topple the Assad regime so we can build a pipeline.
		So, where are we today?
		Well, the U.S. has other means of trying to get the prices down and control natural gas in Ukraine.
		That is, through Burisma, an energy company in Ukraine for which the founder was a man named Michael Zalchevsky.
		The U.S. had a former CIA director of terrorism on the board as well as the son of the sitting vice president, Hunter Biden, which seemed to make no sense, except when you realize it was a U.S.-aligned foreign influence operation to control the government of Ukraine to put pressure on the land leases for which they could.
		It could cause problems for Gazprom, which is Russia's ability to supply energy to Europe.
		So then we get the Burisma scandal.
		Viktor Shokin, the prosecutor in Ukraine, was currently investigating Michael Azarchevsky, the founder of Burisma, for corruption.
		Joe Biden got an email.
		He got contacted by Devin Archer and Hunter Biden over their involvement in Burisma and the fact they're being investigated by a state prosecutor.
		Viktor Shokin signed a sworn affidavit That the only reason he was terminated was because Biden personally flew in and threatened to illegally withhold congressionally approved loan guarantees unless he was fired.
		And it had to do with Hunter Biden being on the board, who was getting $83,000 a month, potentially more.
		He was then fired from his position.
		Now, the fascinating thing is Michael Zodchevsky, while he was under investigation for corruption, fled Ukraine.
		I believe he went to Monaco.
		At this time is around when Devin Archer, Hunter Biden are making contact with the State Department saying, we need help on this.
		Within a few days, Joe Biden flies out completely illegally, tells the president of Ukraine, fire your state prosecutor, you're not getting the money.
		To which this person replied, I believe it was Poroshenko, you don't have the authority to do that, you can't do that.
		And he says, call the president, see what he says.
		Son of a bitch.
		He got fired.
		And they put in someone good, is the quote that Joe Biden said.
		However, this guy they put in drops the investigation into Zlachevsky, whose funds were frozen by London under corruption investigations, who then immediately returned to Ukraine.
		So this whole period, they're saying none of it's happening.
		It's never happening.
		And in fact, once the investigations were dropped because of Joe Biden's involvement, the guy who was accused of corruption returned back to his operations.
		Where we currently are is following the failures of Western soft power to secure this.
		This energy conflict, of which there's a bit more, Russia wanted to build a trade federation, and they had a free trade agreement with Ukraine.
		Ukraine was also being offered up Schengen zone access and EU access if they chose to go with NATO in the West instead.
		A large portion of Ukraine split largely on the...
		And what did we see with Poland?
		When they entered the Schengen zone, Polish people immediately started moving to the UK and to other countries where they can get higher standards of living.
		Same thing happened with Greece, which caused economic instability.
		So the West told Ukraine, we're not going to let you into the EU unless you reach a certain standard.
		You end up getting Victoria Nuland.
		She flies down.
		She's heavily engaged in the politics of Ukraine, trying to convince people to be in Ukraine to support Western expansion and not the Russian Trade Federation.
		Vladimir Putin said at the time to Ukraine, if you open up a trade agreement with Europe and a free trade agreement with us, it's going to mean cheap European products are going to flood into Russia and damage our economy.
		We can't allow that.
		What ends up happening?
		The Yuromaydan movement ousts Viktor Yanukovych, stripping all Russian interests, Russian-aligned interests from the country, and puts in power an administration that was more pro-West And they had their referendum, which I think is largely fake bullshit.
		They just walked outside and said, hey, look, everybody's Russian now.
		Crimea, however, had in the past voted for independence and were blocked illegally, I would argue, by the Ukrainian government in the 90s.
		This ends up with a separatist movement emerging in the east, outraged the president, who was duly elected, was removed in what people who are pro-Russia would call a coup, but at the time they were saying an illicit removal of the president of Ukraine.
		Russia began supplying weapons and training to the eastern separatist movements, which largely did not expand in any meaningful way.
		However, after Donald Trump lost in 2020 and Joe Biden came in, Western interests were reignited in Ukraine, and this pause was largely due to the fact that Donald Trump was uninterested in this direct involvement in Ukraine, much the way the Democratic administrations had been under Obama and with Hillary Clinton at his State Department.
		Once Joe Biden got in and started to re-up U.S. interests in the region, largely over getting cheap energy into Europe, Russia then decided to do a hard invasion.
		I think they were wrong to do it.
		I think they had lost the soft power battle.
		I think soft power is an appropriate means of force in winning conflict.
	But I admit that soft power can often lead to hard conflict, but I'm not so stupid and naive to think that wars don't happen.
	Russia crossed the line militaristically.
	However, the U.S. then immediately intervened and started supplying – I should say NATO in the West – started supplying Ukraine with weapons, which kind of shocked the Russians who thought they were going to win this relatively quickly, though they never said three days.
	That was actually, I think, someone on the BBC who said that.
	Russia has been now flooding the zone, and they've seized the entirety of the eastern region, for which their principal purpose in starting this war is not about seizing Ukraine.
	It is about controlling Sevastopol, where they have a $300 million or multi-billion dollar military naval infrastructure, the home of the Black Sea Fleet, which is their access to the Mediterranean through the Bosphorus, and then ultimately into the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden and the Arabian Sea.
	What the United States derisively calls Russia a cold gas station.
	Russia needs access to the Black Sea to be able to sell oil and natural gas and other resources along the Mediterranean.
	And if they get cut off from the Black Sea, it's going to be massively damaged to their economy.
	Hold on.
	Sochi, I think, is the name of the city.
	They have access to Sochi.
	They could build a base there.
	Russia's not going to give up a military base to the West, to the EU.
	That's not going to happen.
	So they're going to do what they have to do to secure this region of the country.
	Now, we can look at a few other instances where I would argue that our involvement in Ukraine has been bad for us.
	That was Germany accused, a Ukrainian national, of bombing Nord Stream 2. And Ukraine is accused of engaging in actions like this to create public support for U.S. and Western involvement in this country.
	So, all in all, the U.S. should not be meddling in the foreign affairs of the Middle East and Eastern European nations for the purpose of securing cheaper gas and energy for NATO.
	The tangential reason, what they argue on the surface, is that there is a concern among the Western economic bloc that China is expanding too rapidly.
	And that in order to make sure that NATO can grow commensurately with China so they don't become the dominant unipolar force, Europe is going to need access to cheaper energy and a larger labor force.
	Which is why they've had the mass immigration movement, largely from sub-Saharan Africa.
	And it's why they want to get cheaper energy into Ukraine.
	If the argument is, you know, as people have made...
	That's fake.
	And that only works on people who've not done any research on the region or the conflict.
	And my final thought on this is what I know about this is massively limited compared to actual people doing intelligence and working in the region.
	But it is over the span of 15 years of actually actively being involved to a certain degree journalistically, as I have friends who've personally gone to Syria over the civil war, tracking this and many other stories related to the Qatar Turkey pipeline, and have personally been to Ukraine at the start of the conflict, watching it happen and interviewing people in Ukraine on the ground and even going to pro-Yanakovich rallies to learn what they were talking about.
	This does not mean in any way that what I'm saying is But I certainly have more experience in the matter than most people who are pushing bullshit platitudes about the sovereignty of Ukraine.
unidentified		Sure.
		Okay.
		So I want to make sure I summarize you so that you tell me that I've heard you correctly.
		And obviously it won't be as long.
		So just tell me if my summary is reasonable and good faith.
		Basically, there was a major soft war struggle, that soft power struggle that started happening over natural gas energy.
		Right?
		And Ukraine is an important nexus for this struggle, and essentially NATO wants to support Ukraine in keeping it NATO, and they want to make sure that they get pipelines through that area that goes to EU so that they have energy access.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Pipelines are there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They want governmental authority to control the prices that Russia is setting when they transport this energy.
unidentified		Yeah, they want to compete with the Russian monopoly.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This is not competition.
unidentified		Well, wouldn't Ukraine and Syria be owning it versus Russia?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's not going to happen.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the alternate method that the West has is if we can't offset the monopoly, we can control their access.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That means we're going to militaristically, or I should say through subterfuge and soft power, restrict their ability to have access to this market.
unidentified		Gotcha.
		Okay.
		So they are restricting the Russian monopoly on energy?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Attempting to.
unidentified		Okay.
unidentified		Through soft power.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, and through kinetic force.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Ukraine was accused by Germany, a Ukrainian national, at the behest of the government of bombing the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to shut down Russia's delivering of natural gas into Europe.
unidentified		Right, okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So that is the Ukrainians using military force against NATO.
unidentified		Right, so if that's true.
unidentified		Allegedly, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So if that's true, then the Ukraine is also potentially using kinetic force to try to interfere on the power situation.
unidentified		So essentially you've got...
		Is that correct?
		Does that feel like an accurate summary?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would say Russia is seeking to maintain its ability to trade in energy, as it is largely an energy exporter that's maintaining its economy.
		The U.S. is trying to control the prices they sell to Europe.
		Ukraine, in an effort to protect its sovereignty in the matter, has engaged in hostilities against NATO.
unidentified		Gotcha.
unidentified		And so the Nord Stream is there.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		According to CBS News.
unidentified		Yeah, Ukrainian.
unidentified		But is it like a military?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Allegedly.
unidentified		Gotcha.
		Okay.
		So it's not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So we don't know for sure.
unidentified		Okay, that's fine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I'm not going to like ding you super hard over that.
unidentified		So if I'm understanding.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It could be untrue.
unidentified		But it is a soft power fight that happens.
		And basically Russia loses, right?
		They get stripped.
		And Russia goes, fuck that shit.
		and then they turn into a hard power fight, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They don't just roll in, but they have lots of people in Crimea.
unidentified		They release the soldiers, they release the hounds and they make a really big push for Kiev.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Probably because if you control the capital, you control the country, you can have bigger say on what's going on.
unidentified		I'm assuming.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know what your reasoning is for Kiev, but essentially-No, I don't think they- This is, to be completely honest, like, conflict opinion.
		I don't think they pushed for Kiev.
		I think that we saw the invasion from Belarus to the north as a pincer attack so they could split the military forces of the Western powers and then seize the Donbass because the military force they applied to the eastern land bridge into Crimea was substantially greater than they applied through Belarus in the north.
unidentified		Sure.
unidentified		Okay.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So essentially, soft power fight goes on, Russia loses, turns into a hard power fight, which you say Russia's wrong for doing that hard power piece.
		Okay, so They cross the line into the Right.
		So I would fully grant that US has used lots of soft power in Ukraine based on what you're saying.
unidentified		I'm not opposing that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What I was asking for is evidence that right now there is U.S. sanctioned soldiers that are operating front line, fighting, killing Russian soldiers and controlling the Ukrainian military system.
		Right.
		What I offered up was a treatise on the history of the Ukraine conflict.
		I didn't say I was—I could have spent the last 20 minutes Google searching articles.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's just that's what I asked evidence for.
unidentified		So, like, I'm granting you all of this history.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The issue is that that doesn't necessarily prove the extraordinary claim, which is that U.S. is controlling the military of Ukraine and telling it what to do and has all this stuff.
		I'm sure that it's important for training.
		I'm sure that it's important for facilitating in ammunitions.
		And I'm sure that it is motivated to have Ukraine not lose to Russian control.
		But that isn't the same thing as what you're claiming.
		Was this the guy who was a...
		Joseph Kofor Black, was that his name?
		When the CIA installs...
		When CIA directors are installed as board members of foreign energy companies, we tend to ask ourselves, what is the CIA doing in Ukraine?
		And when you have the son of the vice president on the board alongside a CIA director and, you know, going back to the history of this and U.S. involvement, There's a soft power struggle for control, right?
		Which, to my point is, right now, first, let me say, I'm not going to pull up every article on what's called operational coordination in Ukraine.
		we can go back.
		There's also something to consider in that...
		Like the CAA is probably entirely Like, not just Ukraine.
unidentified		The CIA is probably in Israel and most of our allies, right?
unidentified		Yeah, well, for sure in Israel.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And it's probably also in a whole bunch of other countries that we're, like, allied with or, like, wanting to be allied with because it's important to have embassies and, like, locus of control, like, military outposts in various locations because geography matters in war.
		Wow, look at this.
		In the wake of the Hunter Biden email controversy, the Wall Street General...
		My point is, there is this game they're playing where Ukrainians and their international volunteer coalition, they call it, are the ones engaged in the hostilities.
		These are not active duty U.S. personnel.
		Special forces are providing what's called operational coordination for the actions they take.
		The U.S. is providing the weapons.
		The intelligence and the weapons that were used to sink the flagship of Russia's Black Sea Fleet was the United States.
unidentified		Yeah, we're sharing intelligence with them.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But having a U.S. military personnel look to a Ukrainian and say, if you press that button, my missile will be fired that will blow up a Russian vessel.
		It's silly to argue that's the Ukrainians who did it.
		The issue is that if all the Ukrainians are rallying behind it, they support the war, they don't want to lose certain lands like the Donbass and Crimea, and they have large, tremendous support for what's going on.
		I'm sure that there is— I think one of the largest mass migrations in human history is the Ukrainian exodus.
		Like, lots of times civilians flee war-torn.
unidentified		Like, lots of Afghanis left as well.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They're not having elections either.
unidentified		Aren't they in martial law right now?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You don't typically do elections during that.
		Lincoln did.
		Sure, but did Churchill even do that?
		I don't know if the...
unidentified		I think elections ceased during World War II for most of the democracies involved, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's like super standard that democracies stop doing elections because if you're all...
unidentified		Wow.
		Well, hold on.
		Let me finish this argument, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		If all of your money and your energy is invested towards fighting off what you view as an invading enemy, you don't have time to coordinate very expensive elections to go to the polls.
		Lincoln instated martial law, suspended habeas corpus, arrested politicians, and still had an election.
		So do you think that Winston Churchill was stupid for not having an election?
		Is it true that he didn't have an election?
unidentified		I'm not sure, but if he didn't, would that be stupid?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It could go either way depending on the circumstances.
		I don't know.
		You're talking about hypotheticals you don't even know the facts around.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, the hypothetical is that most democracies, when they have martial law, don't have elections, which I believe is true.
unidentified		Except us.
unidentified		Huh?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Except us.
		You guys have also suspended elections during war.
		Which ones?
		I'm not sure my understanding is that you guys have.
unidentified		You can look it up.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Maybe.
		We have gone way over, so we do gotta go.
		But I don't know if we have.
		Abraham Lincoln famously held an election despite arresting a bunch of state legislators in Maryland.
		The U.S. has never suspended or canceled an election due to war.
		Even during Civil War, World War I, and World War II.
		Is that because they ended before the next election?
		No, Lincoln had an election in the Civil War.
		They just excluded the rebelling states.
unidentified		Sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So the argument from the Ukrainians is we can't hold elections in the occupied region, so we can't have an election.
		It's like, what?
		The U.S. did.
		They're not like us, I guess.
		Whatever.
		I'm just saying, you know, let's just say this.
		Let's just say the U.S. has no boots on the ground at all for the purpose of argument.
		The U.S. should not be involved in Ukraine in this conflict.
unidentified		I just disagree with that.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So to what degree do you think the U.S. should be involved?
		I think that it should be sending support, arms, helping the Ukrainians fight off the invasion.
		And my final thought is, once again, why young men don't want to be on the left or associated with Democrats.
		It's not because of the Ukrainian war.
		I'm saying a component is largely, like I mentioned, 70% of millennial women voting in favor of war policies.
		Advocating for escalating a conflict to which could result in World War III, to which Russia recently threatened to Donald Trump after Trump called Putin crazy.
		And you've got a bunch of young guys who are in Gen Z who are first in line to be sent to Ukraine.
		I've got to tell you, there's not a single exit poll where young men cite the draft anywhere near the top of the reasons why they switched.
		No, I'm just saying it's a grain of sand making a heap.
		The issue is that I'm really interested in the heap, which is what we came to talk about, right?
		And there's a few grains that are related to the fact that young may have to fight and die in wars and don't want to be involved in it, and they're being told they should by women who don't.
unidentified		It's not even by women in this case, War of Ukraine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Well, first of all, I'm four women being drafted.
unidentified		So I'm a woman saying I want to be equal.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In the case of war hawking, well, it's men and women.
unidentified		It's governments, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Except the issue right now is that millennial women And Gen Z women are like three to two.
unidentified		Why?
unidentified		Is it the draft?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think social order.
		Like, why are women pro-war Ukraine?
		Like, it doesn't make any sense.
		Most women probably don't have too many thoughts about Ukraine, by and large.
		You get all the Democrats in Congress waving Ukraine flags and inviting their president to our country and offering him money.
		And then you go to like, if you, we're in a rather mixed area, but if you go to like The Gap, it's the city they call The Gap.
		And I'm like, what the fuck are these people flying Ukraine flags for?
		Who are these people?
unidentified		A lot of them are Ukrainians.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And Democrats are skewing female on the younger generations.
unidentified		Sure, but it's against It's not about the draft, though.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		This idea that the left is deranged and obsessed with Ukraine is just super not true at all.
		In fact, the Ukrainian war stopped being interesting to most average left people probably four weeks, maybe five weeks after that.
		are pro-Ukraine.
unidentified		Yeah, but I think Republicans are, too.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Half.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There's that horseshoe theory that shows the maps of Israel and Ukraine.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Right, like Trump is being like, no, Putin's doing a lot of bad stuff.
unidentified		He needs to stop doing what he's doing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Okay, we do gotta wrap it up.
		You don't think that Trump would be opposed to Russia having a monopoly on energy?
		Energy is the greatest bottleneck of all GDP and all growth in all countries in the entire world.
unidentified		It's the most important thing.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Because he wanted to go in there and say, Putin, knock it off.
		And Putin told him to fuck off.
		And he was like, what?
		So I don't think Trump cares about Ukraine.
		I think he's personally slighted.
		But we've gone way over.
unidentified		This is an unfalsifiable worldview now.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		That Trump is egotistical?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, that essentially it's like, well, Republicans are anti-war except for when they're upset, and then when they're upset, it's justified, and then Trump is justified.
unidentified		It's just like it's all— That's the sophistry I've been talking about.
unidentified		Sorry, you're the one engaging in this circle, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You made a point about Trump and Russia, and I said Trump's got an ego, and now he's pissed off at Russia.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		What does that have to do with, like, the factions of the right?
unidentified		Republicans supporting Ukrainians?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, half maybe?
		Okay, yeah, so Republicans, at least half of them support Ukraine.
		The principal MAGA coalition...
		Young men are not voting right because of Ukraine or the draft.
unidentified		They're just not.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's housing, economy, and probably ideology.
		Indeed, which is why I said it's a grain of sand in the heap.
		I didn't say.
		Literally the only reason anybody wants to go to the right is because they're angry about Ukraine's—about U.S. involvement in Ukraine.
		Well— Never said it.
		Sure, but then you also, like, flatten things to, like, see, you, this is the reason why men are leaving the left, because of the draft.
unidentified		And it's like, this isn't it.
		No, no, I didn't say the draft.
		You did.
		It's women wanting to send men to war.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You said that.
unidentified		But when I say this, I'm referring— No, no, no, you were referring to me.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes, the sophistry.
		No, you were saying that I believe that men should go to war.
		I'm a woman who votes left, right?
		Uh-huh.
		Okay, so that I'm the reason men are going to the right.
unidentified		And I'm saying, this is not it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Philosophically, the point I'm making is, there's a dude sitting back watching this right now who doesn't know much about Ukraine at all, nor cares.
		And he's like, why is this lady so hell-bent on us being involved in this war?
		That's my point.
unidentified		Because sovereignty matters.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's important that Russia doesn't push borders, which it has always done.
unidentified		You can talk to Belarus and Poland.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why is it important?
		Because Russia has a historical history of being highly tyrannical.
		What about China?
unidentified		And consumptive.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		China is like that, but not really.
unidentified		What do you mean?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		They've been sinking ships in the South China Sea.
		They've been killing Vietnamese fishermen.
		Yeah, China is expansionary, but they're expansionary around the nine-dotted line, which is very different than Russia's expansionary.
		They're flying sorties over Taiwan.
unidentified		I just don't know why we're comparing these two countries.
		China does lots of bad stuff, too.
		Because other countries exist.
		Yes, we live in a society.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Should we send military aid to India and Pakistan?
		Depending on which one we want.
		I think we're gonna side with India probably.
		Should we, right now, of the Kashmir conflict?
		China's got involvement in that.
unidentified		Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
		And when you look into the history of it, it is...
		Well, hold on.
		It's a classic Sykes-Picot, like, fuckery.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I don't know, like, when you want to go, like, well, where should we be sided with with another Sykes-Picot Middle Eastern boundary issue?
		It's like, I'm not really sure, because every single boundary line that was raw was complicated.
		Why Russia, then?
unidentified		Why should we oppose Russia?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why is Russia more important than literally any other border conflict in the world?
		Because they're the greatest superpower opposing America.
		Russia is.
unidentified		Yes.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Not China.
		China's probably competing now because Russia's, like, blown a lot of its money on the war.
		How many people live in Russia?
unidentified		I don't know.
		More live in China.
		The problem is that they're not educated, right?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I think-How much money is spent to influence- I'm going to guess Russians are more literate than Chinese.
unidentified		Really?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, but I'd argue that a communist system is going to have higher rates, either lying about it or forcing it.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You know what I mean?
unidentified		Very, very unlikely.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I guess if they keep excluding ethnic minorities and things like that, then they're going to have a high literacy rate, though.
unidentified		Yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Like, China is like a new threat to the global order, for sure.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And I think it would be better if we try to find a way to have peace with them.
unidentified		Absolutely.
unidentified		I'm for peace by and large.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I want, what I really want in the world is that we have trade negotiations and relationships with everyone so that there is economic benefit for everyone to work together.
		I think we should use the systems of capitalism that is good at turning human greed and power consumption to good ends, which is things like having trade negotiations with countries that we have tensions with.
		This is the Israel model for making peace with like Behran and the UAE.
unidentified		And I think it's a good model.
unidentified		It's what America did to have peace with the multiple countries.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Why not?
unidentified		Burma.
		Why don't I know anything about Burma?
		Because I can't know all infinite things.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So I'll frame it this way then.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		There seems to be a social order to the interest in Russia that doesn't exist for other nations.
unidentified		Probably, yeah.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so when it comes down to, once again, a guy sitting back drinking a Coke or something or a spindrift and watching a show like this or Liquid Death, he's like, I don't know why I should care about Russia.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Over literally any other conflict in the world.
unidentified		You shouldn't.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		You should care about housing, economics, and the fact that you feel that you have no purpose.
unidentified		Yeah, we do, but then I also have children.
		You know what I mean?
		I'm the guy.
		And I also have children, and I don't feel like raising my son to potentially be drafted for some hot war because we're getting more and more involved in this.
		Nobody wants to go.
		Yeah, but it's easy to say that without skin in the game.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		No, because if I have sons, I also don't want them to go to war, and I have a husband, and I also don't want him to go to war.
unidentified		But you'll sit and vehemently advocate for this stuff.
unidentified		Well, hold on.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I've advocated for peace and economic trades, and I think war is always a tragic situation.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would agree with you that when the soft war was won in Ukraine, Russia shouldn't have invaded.
unidentified		That was bad.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		But what do you think would happen if the U.S. had zero involvement in any capacity or NATO in Ukraine?
unidentified		Ukraine would have been consumed by Russia.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And what does that look like afterwards?
unidentified		For Ukrainians?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
		Probably not very good.
		Why?
		Because the entire history of Russia consuming, particularly Ukraine, who seem very, very rebellious and resistant to being consumed, is fractious.
unidentified		Holodomor not good.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Lots of really awful things happen every time Russia has control of Ukraine.
unidentified		Holodomor is just the first one.
		The Red Scare, right?
		The Bolsheviks hated Ukrainians.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And then the Leninites hated Ukrainians.
		And then the Stalinites hated Ukrainians.
		And then we had like four years with Gorbachev that was like kind of base because he was like, let's just work with all of the global powers.
unidentified		And then he fell.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Do you think more or less people would be dead?
unidentified		In Ukraine?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
unidentified		Probably less people.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		So more Ukrainians would be alive?
		There's things that you value more than your life.
		Should the U.S. be involved in someone else's ideological battle is the question, I suppose.
		We involve ourselves in other people's ideological battles all the time.
		And that's another grain of sand in the heap of why young men are moving to the right.
unidentified		I don't know how...
unidentified		I guess I would tell young men...
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I would genuinely, I would tell young men, I'm sorry, you need to look at foreign systems and how they work.
		If you don't want America involved in like other countries, then isolation.
		Yeah, we're not talking about isolationist.
		See, that's sophistry right there.
unidentified		It's not sophistry.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		It's not isolationist.
unidentified		What's the alternative?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Saying we don't want U.S. military involvement in a foreign country's war is not isolationism.
unidentified		What's the alternative?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And this is the Bush-era issue that I think pushes a lot of disaffected liberals to the right.
unidentified		This is not just Bush-era.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In the Bush-era, when we said things like, why are we at war with Iraq and Afghanistan?
		The answer from the neocons was, isolationism doesn't work.
		And when I was talking to Sebastian Gorka recently, he said something similar to that.
		But he did concede, we don't want regime change intervention in the Trump administration.
		Agreed.
		But he said the Houthis, we can't just remove ourselves completely, so we're going to do surgical strikes.
unidentified		Why not?
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		In this view— In Yemen, why can't we remove ourselves entirely from being violent to the Houthis?
		The U.S. view is that the Houthis are obstructing a major trade route with the Sinai Peninsula and the Arab—what is it?
		The Red Sea and the Gulf of – not Oman, is it?
		Aden.
unidentified		Aden.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And so with the Houthis striking trade vessels, the Trump administration's view on this is we have to stop them from shutting down global trade.
		The problem for us in America is why should I care?
		Our trade doesn't go through there.
		Why are we the world police?
		And there's a lot of people who've been asking this question for 20 years, and we've repeatedly gotten responses from warmongers of both parties.
		We have to do it because no one else can.
unidentified		And American bonds, right?
		Like, we're not gold-backed.
		We're basically fiat-backed.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Indeed.
		Forcing the petrodollar.
		What would happen to US bonds if we just pulled out, U.S. bonds is probably more important for understanding the global reaction to how people view a country as stable or not, right?
		Indeed, but the petrodollar matters more because we don't produce things.
		The United States is largely a service economy because what we produce is global policing.
unidentified		When you say matters more, what do you mean by that?
		Sorry.
		Not to interrupt, I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		The petrodollar, you're familiar with the system of the petrodollar.
		We don't export anything.
		Like, we do, but, like, functionally we don't.
		We export finalized products, so we need gas to move the products back and forth.
		The U.S. is not an exporting nation.
		We do export things like movies we make money off of, but the main reason the U.S. has wealth is not because we are an exporter, which you typically need to be increasing the wealth of a nation.
		So if you say, I want to trade oil on something else, we say, that's great.
		We'll kill you.
		And then what happens?
		The U.S. launches no-fly zones, blows up world leaders, kidnaps and kills them, or stages coups and things like this.
		So typically what the CIA does with USAID and things like that.
		So the purpose.
		For U.S. involvement with, say, the Houthis or Ukraine is largely about maintaining a global, what we refer to as the liberal economic system of maintaining control of the international monetary system through the IMF, through the World Bank, through the SWIFT payment systems, functionally advancements on the petrodollar.
		Now, I think that's all stupid bullshit from a bygone era that has failed us and is currently on the verge of collapse.
		The U.S. should be focusing its resources on securing its border, fiscing its roads, getting kids in school, increasing literacy, maybe working on better means of energy generation and restoring manufacturing to the United States.
		When you then look at Ukraine and you're wondering why we're exerting so much of our influence and resources over that country, once again, They want to start trading with China and the Saudis outside of the U.S. The U.S. just lost their 50-year contract with the Saudis.
		We're now going to start trading oil outside of the petrodollar.
		And we're at risk of World War III because of this.
		However, we're an hour over.
		I do have to go.
		Sorry.
		Thank you for coming.
unidentified		No, I'm sorry.
unidentified		Thank you.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this was fun.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		And Nacho, it was great having you as well.
unidentified		Sorry for not talking about men and talking about Ukraine for two hours.
		I came prepped about men and should have prepped for Ukraine, apparently.
		Although I'm not the expert on Ukraine.
		We got a nice lecture, though.
tim pool ▲ ● ▼		I don't even consider myself to be an expert, but I certainly think that I know more having just experienced a bit of it.
		But I'll leave it at that.
		My friends, this was fun.
		And thank you for going extra on everything.
		There is food downstairs.
		We are going to be back tonight at 8pm for YouTube.com.
		I'm sorry, Rumble.com slash Tim Castile.
		Excuse me.
		And 8pm, we will see you there.

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