King Charles and Queen Camilla arrive in Washington for the 250th anniversary of U.S. independence, while Emma Davidson-Tribbs of the National Women's Defense League exposes systemic sexual harassment in government. Citing 2023 reports revealing 162 accused state officials and 49 members of Congress, she highlights that legislative staffers face the brunt of abuse yet lack safe reporting mechanisms, with resignations often serving as escape routes from accountability. The segment concludes with updates on James Comey's indictment, Hakeem Jeffries' FISA demands, and a Capitol shooting, underscoring urgent needs for reform in both foreign diplomacy and domestic workplace safety. [Automatically generated summary]
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Ethics Committees in State Legislatures00:15:21
That the government prosecutor was improperly appointed to her position.
King Charles and Queen Camilla have arrived in Washington, D.C. for a state visit, which also coincides with the 250th year of the United States declaring independence from British rule.
Later in the afternoon, King Charles will address a joint meeting of Congress as part of his first official state visit to the U.S. since his ascension to the British throne.
And at 7 Eastern, the White House will host a state dinner for Charles and Camilla with U.S. and U.K. government officials and other dignitaries.
Follow live coverage on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile app, and online at c-span.org.
Welcome back to Washington Journal.
Joined now by Emma Davidson-Tribbs.
She's co-founder and director at the National Women's Defense League.
We'll be talking about sexual misconduct in state and federal government.
Emma, welcome to the program.
Thank you so much for having me.
Can you first just talk about the National Women's Defense League, what your mission is, and why you decided to found it?
Yes.
The National Women's Defense League is a national nonpartisan organization dedicated to ending workplace sexual harassment.
We research the issue of sexual harassment and advocate to address harassment and misconduct in governments, specifically state houses and Congress, alongside survivors.
And your funding, how are you funded?
We are funded through private donations, some very supportive and generous donors.
And was there a specific incident that caused you to feel that there was a need for an organization like this?
Or was this something that you had been working on for a long time?
My co-founder and I founded NWDL really as the Me Too movement had hit its height and started to decrease in political power.
We were both from state legislatures.
We've been working as advocates and campaigners in state legislatures our whole careers.
And we certainly saw and experienced sexual harassment in our own jobs and then had several friends across multiple states who had experienced really the worst parts of sexual harassment and misconduct in state legislatures.
And so we saw that this was not about a single bad apple.
It was about a systemic issue, something that was holding back women from running for office, from taking on leadership positions, from being successful lobbyists and advocates.
And so we said we can do something about this.
And so that's why NWDL was founded.
Now, you did put out a report.
It's just been released.
It's an annual abuse of power report.
I've got it up here.
If people would like to look at it, it's nationalwomen'sdefenseleague.org.
Can you explain what this report is and what it tracks?
Sure.
We did our first abuse of power report back in 2023, looking at a decade of public accusations against sitting state-elected officials.
So going back to 2013, this is all publicly available information.
There's no, you know, behind the scenes FOIA or anything like that.
This is what we know publicly.
So it was initially released in 2023.
That was the first time that anyone had really looked, done a comprehensive study of sexual harassment and misconduct in state governments.
We've done that.
We updated those numbers and released those earlier this week.
And then we also added in a companion piece, looking at the public accusations of sitting congresspeople.
So those two reports were released last week.
In the states, we have identified 162 sitting state elected officials since 2013 who have been publicly accused of workplace sexual harassment.
That's from 424 accusations.
And in Congress, we've identified 49 members of Congress who have been publicly accused of some kind of workplace sexual harassment or sexual misconduct from 137 accusers.
So what are the trends, Emma?
You said you first put this out in 2023.
What have you seen?
Has it been increasing or has it been decreasing?
Well, the number one thing we know is that our numbers are way off.
There is a massive underreporting issue in all levels of government on this issue.
Survivors do not feel comfortable or safe coming forward.
The rules and policies do not allow for simple reporting, easy investigations, and certainly not a thorough or consistent set of outcomes.
So we know that it's only about 30% of people who ever report workplace sexual harassment.
So one of the biggest takeaway is these numbers are hip of the iceberg.
If you've got a question.
Another thing that we...
Oh, yeah.
Well, let me tell people that if you've got a question about sexual misconduct or sexual harassment in Congress, in the state houses, you can give us a call now.
The numbers are Republicans 202, 748, 8001.
Democrats 202748-8000.
And Independents 202748-8002.
Go ahead, Emma.
You are going to continue.
Yeah, another thing that we see across all of the data set is that this is a problem for both parties.
In the state legislatures, the numbers are actually pretty even.
We've seen those who, the people who have been accused, it's about 52% Republican, 48% Democrat.
And in Congress, we know that it's about 60% Republican and 40% Democrat.
So this is a box on both houses.
This is a problem that both parties need to take time to address.
And the other thing that we know across all of it is that legislative staffers are the number one target for sexual harassment and misconduct.
At state level, they make up about 40% of accusers and about 77% in Congress.
Well, let's take a step back and if you will, define for us what constitutes workplace sexual harassment.
We see it as anything that brings a sexual connotation or discomfort or conversation into the workplace.
I think it's hard sometimes for people to see that the government is a workplace and a somewhat unconventional workplace.
It is not like corporate America where you have set procedures and policies that, you know, getting an employee handbook that you can refer to if you are uncomfortable or if there's been a really inappropriate conversation.
Most state houses don't have an HR department.
There's no one overseeing the behavior and the appropriateness of what's going on in a workplace setting.
And so coming forward is a tremendous undertaking because it's not as simple as I'm just going to make a meeting with HR and have a conversation.
It takes, it has a lot of different pieces that weigh on survivors and who really are showing up to not only do their jobs, but to serve our country.
These are federal and state employees that our government and our democracy really relies on.
So Emma, what do you mean that there's no HR department that you can go to?
Like, how does that work with these state or congressional offices?
Who runs those kinds of functions?
I mean, who are people supposed to go to if they are having a problem at work?
It varies wildly depending on the state.
Sometimes it differs between the caucuses or the chambers themselves.
So one state Senate might have a different procedure than a state House of Representatives.
In most cases, there is some kind of ethics committee that you can report to.
But usually what happens is they develop a whisper campaign where people on the ground in the building, staffers, lobbyists, journalists, everybody starts telling other people, hey, don't go into this office.
And eventually that will become a large enough situation that hopefully someone reports it to the official channels.
But really in every statehouse that we go into, it is very unclear about the full procedure, who is the best person to report to, who is going to do and run an investigation, and then how are you going to come to a conclusion and what that means for both the accuser and the survivor.
There's very little transparency.
There is very little written procedure.
Most of it is not codified into law.
It is part of the rules of decorum when you start talking about what a lawmaker, the lawmakers' behavior themselves.
So we actually don't really know the full answer of what you're supposed to do.
And then, Emma, where did you get the data for your report?
If this is very underreported, as you're saying, where are the reports that you're relying on to draw on this data?
In the states, we mainly use media reports.
The media is one of the only ways that survivors can get their story out there.
The systems that are in place are not transparent and do not provide any kind of reporting out of how many complaints there have been and any kind of resolution.
So it's typically media reports, obviously legislative and court documents, if and when we can get our hands on them.
And then at the federal level, the Congress actually does put out some report on some of the incidents.
It's usually what cases have actually moved forward to a full ethics committee.
And so we get that from several offices in the congressional records and then accountability websites like GovTrack.
And then you mentioned the ethics investigations in Congress.
A lot of times a member can just resign and then that ethics investigation just goes away.
Is that a lack of accountability from your perspective?
Not only a lack of accountability, it's a get out of jail-free card.
These lawmakers are able to resign with some kind of stature.
Usually if you resign, you get to keep a lot of your benefits from being a lawmaker.
That can include your pension.
That includes retaining floor privileges in several states where you get to come back to the chamber whenever you feel like it.
So resignation is helpful.
It gets the perpetrator out of the building and makes sure that they cannot further harm anyone.
But that's usually where the accountability ends.
New York actually has a great law where if a lawmaker does resign, the legislature maintains jurisdiction and gets to continue moving forward with investigations for up to three years after those resignations.
But that is an exception and not the rule.
Usually, it's resignation means we have dealt with the bad actor.
This situation is over.
We can go back to business as usual.
All right.
And Emma Davidson Tribbs is our guest, and she'll be with us until the end of the program at 10 Eastern.
If you'd like to join the conversation, you can call us.
We'll talk to Linda, King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, Democrat.
Good morning, Linda.
Yeah, good morning.
Hi, thanks for C-SPAN.
I've had my own experiences.
I once took a class at a public university, a two-year college, anyways.
And the professor lied to me.
He wanted me to go on a date with him when the whole class was done.
And I said no.
And right then and there, he threatened me that because of that, I would not get the A I deserve.
And I mean, that sent my whole body shaking.
I went to the library to calm myself.
So I do believe that there is a show of power with sexual abuse.
Okay, I'm sure I have to ask a question.
No, well, Linda, I have a question for you.
What year did this happen?
Oh, my gosh.
I'm out of, yeah, I should have done it.
I'm actually 70 years old, and it happened when I was 25.
And did you actually not get an A?
Did you get a B?
What happened?
No, no, he knew right from wrong.
When I got my paper grade in the mail, it was an A.
But he threatened you nonetheless.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, that was very, very uncomfortable.
And that's actually one of the topics I wanted to mention: I think sometimes when women are uncomfortable, let's say with harassment, because sexual abuse is a legal issue, and everything you're talking about needs to move forward in the legal way.
But I think that when women are uncomfortable, you know, like I had been, seeking help, I did go to therapy some years later, not for that, but other things as well.
Anyways, I think our women can become stronger and not feel as weak as we can feel sometimes.
I also think there's good men that may become shy to meet women, and I think that's an absolute shame.
I don't understand why the sex abuse training, again, I'm calling harassment separate from training, okay?
That I don't know why the training that our legislative folks get isn't working for them.
So I think, you know, can we re-look?
Can we re-look at the training process?
Got it.
Go ahead, Emma.
Yeah, Linda, thank you for sharing that.
I'm so sorry that you experience that kind of harassment and threats.
I'm so sorry.
You bring up a great point about training, and it is something that I think certainly is a standard in corporate America.
We have surveyed the state legislatures all across the country, and what we have found is 40% of state lawmakers do not receive required sexual harassment training.
So that is the place that we can certainly, that is a political and policy change we can be making.
Let's make sure everyone is getting full sexual harassment training.
Addressing Workplace Harassment Issues00:14:20
I think what has been so wonderful about the last few weeks is we've seen really strong women come forward and not only share their stories, but support each other.
And sexual harassment and misconduct is a tool meant to separate and isolate survivors.
And we've been really inspired and so touched by the voices of the survivors that have come forward against former Congressman Swalwell and Gonzalez.
We see it across the country where survivors find each other and are able to move forward together in a real sense of power.
And NWDL was founded to really help support that and to provide this sisterhood that we think really helps shine the light on the problem.
Jeff in Binghamton, New York, Independent Line.
Good morning, Jeff.
Good morning.
So I think there's definitely a problem there, but I want us one thing in common.
We have Congressman we had in the last five years, 10 years.
So Anthony Weiner, we had President Bill Clinton, you had Attorney General and Governor of New York, Elias Fetcher, you had Andrew Como.
Now we have Eric Swalwell.
It seems to be a real big problem in the Democratic Party.
And I thought they were supposed to be the party for women.
Emma.
Yeah, so what we're seeing is it is a problem for both parties.
Based on our numbers in Congress at the federal level, the numbers since 2006 show 60% of those who've been accused are Republican, 40% are Democrat.
It is much more even in the states.
It's 52% Republican, 48% Democrat.
So it may feel like it's one party versus the other, but really both of them have very serious issues with this and need to be doing more to address it.
David in Cape Main, New Jersey, Republican, you're on with Emma Davidson-Tribbs.
Hello, ma'am.
Thank you for taking my call today.
I really appreciate it.
As a survivor myself, I wanted to ask you about this.
I had a problem when I was in university that I was falsely accused of sexual harassment, and I had to go through this whole process to show that it was because I had rejected her advancements that she had accused me of this.
So as a survivor of harassing myself, what would you recommend I do now?
Because it's been a few years, but I'm still traumatized by this.
What ended up happening, David, in that case?
Well, in that case, and this is the, I'll be very plain, very, very short.
I was just told to stay away from her.
And they basically told me, the administration basically told me, men up and just walk away from it.
Did they believe you or did they believe her?
After a lot of people, a lot of discussion and having to bring multiple witnesses forward to say, no, no, she approached him, he rejected her, and then all of a sudden, a week later, she said, you're harassing her.
So I took witnesses, took time, but instead of the believe in me because I'm saying, no, I'm innocent, I had to come up with all these witnesses.
But when she said, oh, the big bad man harassed me, instantly the administration believed her and was ready to throw me out of school.
All right.
Let's get a response for you.
Yes, I'm so sorry that you got embroiled in one of these situations.
What I will say is false allegations are very, very rare.
It's between from an NAH study, we know it's about anywhere from 2% to 8% of accusations are false.
Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, but they are exceedingly rare and even more so in government workplaces.
When you combine the huge disincentives and the risks, power imbalances, the retaliatory threats that these survivors face if and when they come forward, it is very, very rare that we see false accusations.
However, this is exactly one of the reasons why we would push for better policies, more transparent procedures, easy ways to report, therefore easy ways to come back and investigate and solve some of these issues so it doesn't become a he said, she said, or a larger dandel in a state or in the federal government.
By having procedures in place, we're able to really provide everyone who is involved in the situation with full investigation and what we would see is hopefully a very fair outcome.
In Washington, D.C., on the independent line, Susie, you're on the air.
Hi.
Yeah, I just wanted to recount my experience trying to get help with some sexual harassment at work.
I got like professionally just taken down.
I worked in like a West Coast corridor of power, media, and big tech, and in a creative capacity, in a freelance capacity.
And when I reported it, I literally had my insurance company proactively call me to talk about my new diagnosis of psychosis.
My neurologist of 30 years transferred me to a different one who said there was no such thing as migraines.
I could not use technology to update my union classes, including the sexual harassment one, ironically.
And I've had some kind of like man-in-restricted software for the entire eight years this has happened.
It's like my life became a John Grisham novel.
And I mean, I was just taken down.
So Susie, have you been able to?
Have you been able to work after that?
Did you change fields?
I had to do early retirement.
I worked happily in peace.
I was like a well-regarded person in the film industry, but lots of commercials and meaning big tech ultimately and broadcasters were my employers.
So, I mean, just totally powerless as an independent, you know, freelancer.
All right.
Susie, let's get you into a response.
Izzy, I'm so sorry.
I don't think that people always understand how long the trauma of one of these situations lasts.
Even if the person who harassed you receives some kind of censure or is removed from the situation, the trauma that survivors carry with them lasts far longer than I think people fully understand.
So thank you for sharing.
I would say you can call us.
Hello at nationalwomen'sdefenseleague.org.
We would love to talk to you and please, please share your story with us.
We can't always fix every part of the problem, but the solidarity of other survivors is usually a really impactful way to move forward.
And we would love to talk to you.
Roxy Hagerstown, Maryland, Independent Line, you're on the air.
Oh, hi.
I was a sexual assault counselor in Fort Stewart, Georgia, for about five years.
And this was about probably 30, 40 years ago.
And every single soldier had to come through sexual assault and rape counseling where they were trained then.
But I think that once you're an adult and you're into this culture, that that's too late for training, although you're getting the new information and it can prevent you from doing something heinous like that.
Training needs to begin in grade school when a person says no, it's no.
And what are boundaries that are set between the male and the female and what should and shouldn't happen in the workplace and waiting until they get into a workplace and you may or may not have an HR staff that can give this training.
It's almost like begging issues to happen.
And I'm wondering with all of the experience of your guests there, are inroads being made to have training start and maybe middle school.
Emma.
Thank you so much for that question.
We have not seen a huge amount of movement at the state level in terms of legislation or policy about bringing some of this training into younger people.
I will say any not, I mean, really any workplace, but certainly the more non-traditional workplaces, for us, that means governments.
A lot of the people who are being targeted for the harassment are very young.
They are the interns and the pages.
They are usually it's their first job out of college.
And in many cases, those programs are run alongside the universities.
So making sure that young people have the information of what's appropriate in a workplace, where they can go to report something that didn't feel quite right, making sure that they have trust in the system itself are all really vital places to start, especially when you're starting your career.
And for our purposes, you want to be in public service.
We certainly think that that is an important piece that any job should be training people on, especially if it's a more non-traditional workplace where there isn't a lot of these guardrails already established.
We've got a question on X from Laura in Spokane, Washington, who says, Glad to see this topic because it's overlooked frequently.
My question is, has she gotten access to the Hush Fund files yet?
If not, please do so.
Do you know anything about that, Emma?
We have seen the reports about the fund that is there to pay out some of these settlements.
We have not gotten access to it.
We have seen a lot of the reporting and are grateful for the investigative reporters who are talking more about this.
We are looking into doing more research on the cost of sexual harassment in workplace situations.
I will say the taxpayers of New York have been shelling out millions of dollars for former Governor Andrew Cuomo to initiate lawsuits against his survivors, against the women, in an attempt to clear his name.
And because he's a former governor, he gets to utilize state funds for that.
So taxpayer money is certainly being utilized in not the best way for this topic.
So I think it's a great place for more investigation.
John, Washington, D.C., Line for Democrats.
Good morning.
John, are you there?
Yeah, yes.
Can you hear me?
Yes, go right ahead.
Yeah, I wasn't going to call, but I heard a man and it kind of prompted me and it brought back memories.
Something similar happened to me.
I was on a team that traveled around the country and I had a female supervisor.
And we used to hang out after work just to get to know the city.
But one day, my supervisor, the female, knocked on my door and had a borrow White Russian.
I felt very uncomfortable.
I let her in.
I was watching the basketball game.
So we continued to watch the basketball game and finished the White Russian.
And so about one o'clock in the morning, I said, Well, I'm going to bed and you can let yourself out.
She lives right around the deck, two doors down.
And so I go in my bedroom, close the door, and all of a sudden, my door opens.
My female supervisor sits on my bed.
I'm afraid to even look at her, pretend like I'm asleep.
Long story short, I didn't do anything with her.
This was a Saturday night.
On Monday morning, her whole demeanor changed.
And I was going to be with her for another three months at this location.
When we get back to town, she tells her boss that I wasn't a team player.
And so I was removed from the team.
And I couldn't, I was so embarrassed.
And I didn't think anyone would believe me that she had come to my room, sat on my bed, got in the bed, and I did nothing.
I didn't think it was believable.
So, John, we are running out of time, so I'm going to ask Emma to make a final comment.
Yeah, I'm so sorry that you experienced that, John.
I will say we have seen that perpetrators of sexual harassment and misconduct can be both men and women.
Our numbers show that in state governments, it's around 93% of those who are accused are men, and in Congress, 97% are men.
But we certainly have seen examples where women in power are also abusing it in this way.
So it is less common, but it absolutely happens.
And I'm so sorry that you experienced that.
All right.
That is Emma Davidson Tribs.
She's co-founder and director at the National Women's Defense League.
That is their website, NationalWomen's Defense League.org, if you'd like more information.
Emma, thanks so much for joining us today.
Thanks for having me.
We're going to leave this here as beginning.
Honoring Vice Chair Ted Liu00:02:16
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Reuters and others are reporting that former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted again by the Trump Justice Department.
The article notes that while the specific charges have yet to be disclosed, some sources are indicating this new indictment stems from a social media post by Mr. Comey that apparently showed seashells arranged to say 8647, a reference to Mr. Trump, the 47th president, that some have found threatening.
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House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries was joined by party lawmakers for a news conference on the Democratic agenda.
The vice chair of the caucus, Ted Liu, said he would support FISA reauthorization if FBI Director Kash Patel were removed from office.
Members also discussed affordability, artificial intelligence, and funding for the Department of Homeland Security.
Good morning.
Honored to be back here with Vice Chair Ted Liu.
First, I want to say how grateful we are that everyone is safe after the shooting this weekend, and we're so thankful for the quick actions of the United States Secret Service and law enforcement to stop the gunmen.