Washington Journal on March 28, 2026, details a 43-day partial government shutdown where the Senate funded DHS excluding ICE and Border Patrol, yet House Republicans rejected it for a two-month extension. Amidst Iran's fifth-week conflict, President Trump extended a 48-hour ultimatum by 10 days while the Pentagon requested $200 billion; Secretary Marco Rubio cited objectives to destroy Iran's military capabilities. New DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen aims to streamline operations following controversies involving former Secretary Kristi Noem, as listeners debate deportation fatigue, nuclear threats, and the efficacy of "No Kings" protests across six continents. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
Source
Participants
Main
e
elise labott
21:04
m
mimi geerges
cspan19:22
t
taylor popielarz
cspan18:03
Appearances
b
beverly gage
00:44
b
brian lamb
cspan00:46
c
carlos a gimenez
rep/r01:21
d
dasha burns
politico01:07
d
donald j trump
admin01:39
h
hakeem jeffries
rep/d01:38
m
marco rubio
admin01:38
m
mark warner
sen/d02:13
m
markwayne mullin
sen/r00:43
m
mike johnson
rep/r02:48
t
tim walz
d00:55
Clips
c
chris hayes
msnow00:03
d
david rubenstein
00:26
d
don bacon
rep/r00:06
l
lloyd blankfein
00:27
r
ro khanna
rep/d00:02
|
Speaker
Time
Text
Shamed to Call Myself American00:13:13
unidentified
And then we'll talk about Saturday's No Kings protest, the goals of the movement, and plans for the day with one of the organizers, Indivisible Co-Executive Director Leah Greenberg.
Also, the Washington Examiner's Anna Giratelli on the ongoing DHS partial shutdown and where the agency is headed under the leadership of newly sworn-in Secretary Marquaine Mullet.
Here are two stories that dominated the headlines.
After a 42-day standoff, the Senate voted early yesterday morning to fund most of the Department of Homeland Security, excluding funding for ICE and Border Patrol.
However, House Republican leadership rejected the bill and instead passed a two-month extension of all funding.
Both houses recessed for Easter break.
The White House ordered DHS to pay TSA agents out of existing funds.
In the Middle East, the conflict in Iran enters its fifth week today.
President Trump has extended his 48-hour ultimatum by 10 days to allow for talks.
The Pentagon is moving forward with a request for $200 billion in emergency funding as national average gas prices hit a four-week high of nearly $4 a gallon.
The lines are open.
Which story from this week is most important to you?
Democrats, 202-748-8000.
Republicans, 202-748-8001.
And Independents, 202-748-8002.
You can text us at 202-748-8003.
Include your first name in your city-state.
And we're on social media, facebook.com/slash C-SPAN and X at C-SPANWJ.
Welcome to today's Washington Journal.
Get an update first from the Hill.
After rejecting the Senate deal, House passes short-term DHS funding bill.
That's the headline.
It says that House lawmakers on Friday passed a Republican bill to fund the Department of Homeland Security in its entirety for eight weeks after GOP leaders rejected a Senate-passed bill that would exclude money for immigration enforcement.
The partisan package was a nod to conservative immigration hawks who hailed Speaker Johnson for pushing it through, but it has no chance of passing the Senate and ensures that the weeks-long DHS shutdown will become the longest in history.
Well, here is Speaker Mike Johnson speaking yesterday before the vote about why he's against that Senate-passed bill.
I'm quite convinced that it can't be that every Senate Republican read the language of this bill, and I'm going to just read you one excerpt of it because it's pretty alarming and it says everything that you need to know in Section 4.
This is on page 2 of the bill.
This is an actual copy of the bill, that excerpt.
It says, quote, the contents printed under the headings of this bill, U.S. Immigration AND Customs Enforcement AND Border Security Operations under THE heading of U.S. Customs AND Border Patrol AND Protection shall have no force or effect for purposes of this act, and amounts specified in the final bill under the subheading Border Security Operations and under the heading U.S. Customs AND Border Protection and under the headings of U.S.
Immigration AND Customs Enforcement and the Department OF Homeland Security shall be ZERO.
We're not doing that.
And it is unconscionable to me that the Democrats would force some sort of negotiation at 3 o'clock in the morning and try to hoist this upon the American people and then get on their jets and go home for their holiday and pretend and think that we're going to go along with that.
So we're going to do something different.
We're going to do the responsible thing.
Republicans are going to continue to govern and do the right thing morally, legally, and politically.
We are going to take care of those who take care of us.
Now, there were three Democrats that voted with Republicans on that bill.
They were Representative Henry Coyar of Texas, Don Davis of North Carolina, and Marie Glusenkamp-Peres of Washington.
And here's what she said on X.
This is Representative Marie Glusenkamp-Perez.
She says, I believe ICE reform is necessary.
I voted for this bill because I believe that it's wrong not to pay people for their work.
It's also foolish not to pay people for their work because you think it's going to get you unattainable goals.
And this is what Minority Leader Senator Chuck Schumer said.
He said, a 60-day CR that locks in the status quo is dead on arrival in the Senate, and Republicans know it.
He says, we've been clear from day one.
Democrats will fund critical Homeland Security functions, but we will not give a blank check to Trump's lawless and deadly immigration militia without reforms.
Wonder what you think about that.
There's also the conflict in Iran going on.
We'll go straight to the calls now to JJ Hollister, California, Republican.
Good morning.
unidentified
Good morning, John, for taking my call.
I'd like to first talk about war in Iran.
And here's the situation.
The intelligence, intelligence are right on because they had said that certain people at certain places and they were blown up and all that.
But the intelligence is top-notch.
So that same intelligence told the president they were near inventing the nuclear bomb.
So he had all this feedback coming back.
And I would go with the intelligence because they've been right on.
And then also said that, are you willing to take the chance when you have a country that will shoot their own, what, almost 3,000 protesters?
That kind of country don't hesitate to use that nuclear maybe on our bases and then extend the rockets to go further.
So I'm willing to take that chance that that never happens.
And so that might change because here's the headline from Federal News Network that Trump signs order to pay TSA employees a mid-shutdown standoff.
It says that formal order to pay TSA staff came out Friday as Senate passed the DHS funding bill.
However, that funding bill did fall apart.
But Trump did sign an executive action to pay TSA agents and employees.
Jake in New York, Democrat, you're on the air.
unidentified
Hi, good morning.
How you doing today?
Good.
Not trying to be funny, but honestly, just watching that clip of Mike Johnson, I don't know if anyone noticed his hair is getting a lot grayer than usual.
And I'm saying that because I think the pressure is finally starting to affect him very much because he clearly knows he's trying to go out on an uphill battle that he can't win.
And he's going to continue to try to fight a battle for Donald Trump.
And at this point, I've gone through the TSA lines.
I went there last week through Phoenix and New York.
It was a nightmare.
It is going to get worse.
People understand this has nothing to do with voter ID.
This is all about, and we're talking about the SAVE Act, this is all about taking voter rolls and trying to make it an embarrassment and trying to do whatever he can to spare himself for not getting impeached after the midterms because the blue tsunami is coming.
And on the front page of the Washington Post today about the Iran war, it says reliance on costly tomahawks stirs alarm at Pentagon.
It says the U.S. military has fired more than 850 Tomahawk cruise missiles in four weeks of war with Iran, burning through the precision weapons at a rate that has alarmed some Pentagon officials and prompted internal discussions about how to make more available.
It says the missiles, which can be launched from Navy surface warships and submarines, have been a staple of U.S. military attacks since they were first used in combat in 1991.
But only a few hundred are manufactured each year, meaning the global supply is limited.
The Pentagon does not publicly disclose how many missiles are in its inventory at any one time.
I mean, obviously, it was an opportunity to talk to our allies on the G7 and outline the perspective of what we have going on with Iran.
We talked about a lot of things, but obviously in the Iran operation.
And we're very clear, as we've been from the very beginning, the objectives of this mission have been clear from the very first night the president announced it.
We're going to destroy Iran's Navy.
We've destroyed their Air Force.
We are going to basically destroy their ability to make missiles and drones in their factories.
And we're going to substantially, and I mean dramatically, reduce the number of missile launchers so that they cannot hide behind these things to build a nuclear weapon and threaten the world.
As the Department of War has consistently outlined, we are on or ahead of schedule on that operation and expect to conclude it at the appropriate time here in a matter of weeks, not months.
And the progress is going very well.
Obviously, we have some work to do.
We've got to finish the job, and we are finishing that job.
In the last 10 years prior, I would have called it as a Republican.
I voted for Trump in the last three elections.
And as a result of his actions after the Epstein affair and with this unjustified war with Iran, I have become now an independent rooting for Thomas Massey, who seems to be one of the few people in Congress actually fighting for Americans right now.
As a veteran, you know, I heard one of your previous callers, the 85-year-old woman, thinks she's ashamed to be an American right now.
And I can relate to that.
As a veteran, it hurts me to even say that I'm ashamed to be an American, but that's the honest truth of what this president has caused to the American people is we've committed an unjustified war against Iran that we are going to lose.
So Patty mentioned going to the Social Security, that's SSA.gov.
This is AARP.org just with information here from last year about six big social security changes for 2026, cost of living increase, higher Medicare costs, and a new tax break affecting beneficiaries bottom line.
So you can go to that as well if you're concerned about Social Security.
It's got to be all tied together if you'll let me do it.
Okay, now, if you find out how much we have spent, some of these, let your audience know, some of these intercepted missiles cost as much as $20 million apiece.
These smart bombs cost millions apiece.
Now, we have bombed every building in Gaza thanks to America's weapons.
Now we got China over there, probably going to take Taiwan.
I mean, we're just throwing our weapons out there.
So, Len, this is why the Pentagon's asking for another $200 billion to replenish those stocks.
unidentified
No, check this out now, ma'am.
This can really blow your mind.
Now, I did a little studying myself.
Now, you know, when you look at the Afghanistan war and the Iraq war, which is Republicans, that was $10 billion for those two wars.
If you add up the interest, you're looking at another over $10 billion.
If you're looking for the bailouts, it was another $5 billion.
The Republicans was the reason that we're in this deficit.
I heard nothing once you have a shit on the deficit.
We're running these deficits.
We want Democrats in charge.
It's always deficit, deficit.
I don't know why Democrats are a little stupid too, because they don't know how to talk about this stuff like Republicans, you know.
But this thing is happening all over again, and there's nobody to fact check it.
And then we sit here, and I seen the way you protect Israel just then, when Houston Ware Israel didn't say they were going to threaten, said they don't want nobody to exist or something like that.
It kind of related to the last guy that called, and it was about how, well, first, how Donald Trump raised the military enlistment age from 35 to 42, I think it was.
And he was talking about a draft recently, or his press secretary at least was talking about raising or allowing a military draft, but wasn't denouncing it from happening.
And I kind of figure that this might be something as a result of Israel and their influence on the United States.
And I was just wondering what your personal opinion was on this.
Well, I personally think that Israel might be controlling the United States in certain ways by, you know, paying out our politicians and stuff like that.
And I also figured that how can I come without sticking my finger in my ass?
It says that Army ups the max enlistment age to 42.
And this is from three days ago.
Those in their late 30s and early 40s can now join the U.S. Army.
The Army increased its maximum enlistment age to 42 this month.
That's March bringing its accession policy closer in line with most of the U.S. other military services according to updated service regulation documents.
John in Virginia, line for Democrats, you're on the air.
unidentified
Good morning, thank you for taking my call.
I just want to say to every time I'm listening to Mark Rubio, it's really a shame that this man is representing us as the Secretary of State.
Because when you're dealing other countries and trying to make deals, you have to have a your words mean something.
Your deals have to be whatever you're telling them that they will accept it.
It seems to me that he's going there and trying to dictate his idea that he doesn't even believe what he's saying.
Because if he tells the European country something, Donald Trump will reverse it next hour and say something else.
So you're dealing with professional politicians and they expect you, your words mean something.
Now we're taking away Ukraine, the weapon, and taking to Iran.
And it seems to me that we as an Americans need to understand one thing.
I don't worry about the stocks or oil.
I worry about every time I go to the grocery store, how much this food is going to cost me.
How much am I paying this?
How much am I paying the gas?
We are focusing things that don't help me, my family, or my country.
We have to understand one thing.
We want wars.
We want Iraq.
We want Afghanistan.
At the end of the day, we lost.
We came back home.
And we're doing the same thing.
And I want to say one more thing, if you quickly.
I'm asking any Republican out there, there's a lot of good Republicans that we need to lift.
The people who call themselves Republican, they don't work for Republicans anymore.
I'm not saying people should vote Democrat, but at least there's something wrong when we vote on people 30 years and they don't care about our families.
They don't care about our country.
They don't care about our constitution.
We have a problem.
Our constitution that can clear everything for us.
We're not even using it right now.
And it's a sad.
I'm an immigrant who came a long time ago, and I'm crying inside because this country, if you don't know this is the heaven, this country, you have to understand that if there is a heaven on the earth, this is, but the people don't understand how to keep this freedom that we have day in and day out.
As President of the United States, I would never allow the world's number one state sponsor of terror to obtain a nuclear weapon.
I said that for a long time.
And I didn't.
To defend America and our allies over the past 27 days, the U.S. Armed Forces, most powerful in the world, have been annihilating Iran's military capacity with force, precision, skill like the world has never seen.
It was violence, actually, really violence.
We're crushing Irans.
Currently, as we speak, I just looked.
We had another big day.
We hit them.
They don't know what's happening.
Remember this?
They lied about three days ago.
I said, yeah, we're negotiating with this.
We are not negotiating.
They're being hit so hard.
Anybody would be negotiating.
They are negotiating.
They're begging to make a deal.
They're begging to make a deal.
Turned out I was right.
They were negotiating, which they admitted two days later.
And in order to make up for their misstatement, they said, we're going to send you eight ships of oil.
And the following day, I saw on, this is two days ago, I saw on one of the networks, very strange.
There were eight ships of oil coming out of Iran.
And then they actually said, we're going to add an extra two.
And they added an extra two, so we had ten ships.
And then people realized we were actually negotiating.
We're negotiating now.
And it'd be great if we could do something, but they have to open it up.
They have to open up the strait of Trump.
I mean, Harmouth.
Excuse me.
I'm so sorry.
Such a terrible mistake.
The fake news will say he accidentally said, no, there's no accidents with me, not too many.
And do you think that the best way to handle that threat from Iran is militarily?
That we're going to be better off at the end of this military conflict.
unidentified
Yeah.
Listen, whether Iran is going to have a nuclear weapon or not, have you ever heard of a dirty bomb?
They use plutonium and dirty bombs.
And if they set off a dirty bomb in New York City or LA or anywhere, you can't even exist in the area for quite some time.
So we're dealing with radical people that believe that if you don't believe in their Bible and the Muslim ways, then you are an infidel and you'd be killed.
And this is Deb, who says on Facebook, her biggest story is a No Kings.
It's the biggest protest yet today.
She says, join us.
And you can actually watch the protest in Minnesota here on C-SPAN.
That's going to be live today.
You'll see Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, and singer Bruce Springsteen, along with other celebrities, activists, and elected officials.
They'll be speaking at the No Kings protest in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Again, live coverage starts here on C-SPAN at 3 p.m. Eastern Time.
It's also on our app, C-SPANNOW and online at c-span.org.
George in Buffalo, New York, on the Republican line.
Go ahead, George.
unidentified
Hi.
Thanks so much for taking my call.
Preventing Iranian Nuclear Capacity00:07:52
unidentified
Regarding the Iran conflict, you know, I've been thinking about it a lot, and I think there's a simple question that just deserves a simple answer.
The simple question that I ask people is: do you believe Iran should have nuclear capacity?
Again, do you believe Iran should have nuclear capacity?
Everybody I ask that to, they all say, no, by no means, they should have nuclear capacity.
Never met one person that says, well, yeah, I do think they should have nuclear capacity.
Everybody agrees with that simple question.
So if that's the answer most people, if not all people, give, well, then, you know, what you have to do.
And I think Donald Trump has always been consistent on that question: that Iran cannot have nuclear capacity.
What past administrations have done, President Obama and President Biden, as far as giving them millions, if not billions of dollars with the understanding that they cannot progress, meaning Iran cannot progress their nuclear capacity, they never abided to it.
They took the money from America and have been consistently developing their nuclear projects.
If they could reach America, I'm sure they would do that.
And one last point.
I mean, that's how I feel about the Iran conflict.
And I know somebody called in about the New Kings protest that's going on today.
I don't know who they're referring to as the king, who they're protesting against, because like your previous caller said, The Independent, since Donald Trump has been in office, he's been moving our country forward.
This is what I believe.
He's been doing everything he can to keep our country, to place our country first.
And the biggest crime, in my opinion, that has been committed against our country, and I've said this on your show before: the biggest crime is under the Biden administration, between 10 to 20 million illegal immigrants were allowed to come into your country without nobody knowing who they are or were.
Good morning, Mimi, and thank you for taking my call.
I have a simple solution that should bring Iran to the bargaining table.
They apparently are able to blockade the Straits of Hormuz from the land.
We should blockade it from the air, and we should say either all the ships come through or none of them come through.
We've already demonstrated we can destroy ships or small boats, speedboats on the open seas.
So we should just say, Iran, you come to the bargaining table, or nobody comes through the Strait of Hormuz, or everybody comes through the Strait of Hormuz.
We enforce that from the air, or we have superior air power, and we don't lose putting any boots on the ground and excluding precious American blood.
That's my simple solution to get them to the bargaining table.
Way back in the 70s when we had an oil shock, 7% of the world's oil went through the strait.
Today, 20% goes through.
Back in the 70s, no natural gas. went through the straight of Hormuz.
Now, close to 20%.
So the closure of the strait has wreaked havoc on both the global oil and gas supply chains.
As I said, normally about 20% of the world's oiled and liquefied natural gas passes through the strait.
Today, traffic through the strait has nearly grounded to a halt.
Literally, down 95% since the start of the war.
The International Energy Agency has already called the effective closure of the strait and all the other ancillary items coming out of this the worst global energy disruption in history, eclipsing even the Arab oil embargo of 1973.
Old enough to remember that, I know the center from Maryland's, old enough to remember that which caused huge gas lines and damage all around the world.
So if we just measure what's happened so far in these three weeks plus to date, the closure of the strait has removed approximately 400 million barrels of oil around four days of world supply from the market.
And again, much of the oil that's still getting through actually started on tankers before the war started.
And that 400 million barrels of oil that have been removed and that number will rise exponentially now has led to price increases of around 50 percent for brent crude.
Now that's the the global benchmark for oil as well, and this has gotten some coverage in our country.
But not enough.
Iran has also carried out significant strikes on oil and gas facilities throughout the Gulf.
In total, more than 40 energy sites in nine countries across the Middle East have been severely damaged due to the conflict, including the world's largest liquefied natural gas facility in Qatar to be closed down.
Yeah, my two top stories is that the first one is that I wish you can look it up so like I'm lying about it.
That our president, he refused to stand next to a black female officer when he in public.
And then our Secretary of War, he refused to promote two black female officers and two black male officers.
You know, he removed them where they couldn't even be, you know, promoted to whatever they rank they supposed to be going to.
And, you know, I just don't think that's fair for, you know, we have soldiers that's fighting in the war, and then they refuse to promote them to they, you know, so they rank.
So, Dwight, let me, I know you've got one more point, but let me update people on that.
This is the New York Times.
Hagseth strikes two black and two female officers from promotion lists.
It says Defense Secretary Hagseth's highly unusual decision to remove officers from a one-star promotion list has spurred allegations of racial and gender bias.
That's at the New York Times if you'd like to read that.
Okay, go ahead.
What was your second thing?
unidentified
Automaton Square, Trump, he refused to stand next to a black female officer doing, you know, whenever he on stage, they say he refused to stand, you know, next to a black female officer.
Donnie, we're having trouble here and you try again.
unidentified
I'd like to start by saluting the everybody involved in the Operation Episode Fury.
That's, I assume that's The callers or even senators or congressmen or women who would call this a war or a conflict rather than an operation or whatever the legal justification that term is, they would not probably be able to say the difference between Iran and Iran as well.
But the top news story of the week would be, obviously, I just saw that the No Kings Rally is again going to be folding up here in Europe as well.
They're going to have one in Paris, London, and Madrid, of all places, Spain, which is that the president was kind of talking about.
You saw it, organic leadership on the streets that showed that peaceful protest and resistance, standing up for human rights, constitutional rights, is proved to be a very popular thing.
And I think Donald Trump, just like so many things, breaks it and moves on.
Some of it's buffoonage, Trump stakes, Trump University, but he sent the federal government armed agents in here, killed our citizens, did massive damage that will take years to recover from.
And I did listen in that opening, which was fantastic, Chris.
The one thing Donald Trump said I agree with, I'll use his line, never forget.
We will never forget what happened here, and we're taking action against it.
And I think you'll see it very visibly in the No Kings rallies and grateful to folks across the country.
But an understanding that I think Minneapolis and Minnesota provided the template here for pushing back on this guy.
And there's work to be done.
There's work to be done because we still need justice.
So, meaning you would make sure that you would want the president to tell oil companies they are not allowed to sell oil produced in the United States overseas.
Is that what you mean?
unidentified
That's correct.
They make the United States market for oil, because now we have an excess of a production of energy.
According to President Trump, we don't need the rest of the world for energy.
So we should be able to be energy efficient and energy dependent from the world.
So why do we have to be on a worldwide market for gas?
He can use the War Production Act.
He issues executive orders for lots of other things, most of them ridiculous, but he does nothing for the American people.
And this is Rolling Stone magazine with what Dwight was asking about with the headline: Army Secretary was told Trump wouldn't want to stand next to black female officer, according to a report.
And it says Trump is known to muse about how military men he interacts with as president straight out of central casting.
He doesn't seem to want that to include any black women, according to a report released Friday by the New York Times.
That's reporting by Rolling Stones, originally by the New York Times.
Here is Mary Elizabeth in New York, New York, Democrat.
Good morning.
unidentified
Good morning.
Good morning, all.
You know, this is a conundrum that we're all living through.
And no one people are calling in with their various and sending opinions, but I have an opinion, and it is this: I think people need to remember Ben Dung.
In 1955, in Bandung, Indonesia, there was the first meeting of the non-aligned countries, and they said, We are not capitalist.
We are not communist.
Islam is socialist in nature.
We do not want to go shopping.
Our Secretary of War seems to want to relitigate the crusades.
He's running around talking about having no mercy.
It's really, we're in a real conundrum.
I think everyone needs to go to church and pray and/or go out and as the No Kings marches are saying, live with your neighbors, inner exchange with your neighbors, because this country was founded, and we're going to be celebrating 250 years.
And it was an idea, and we were marching towards an idea.
And it seems like the people in charge now want to take away from our idea and put us back many, many years.
In the 20th century, there were liberation movements.
People were reducing the colonialism, and people were marching free.
I think Democrats and Republicans should get back to the Capitol and vote on that straightaway, correctly, so everybody gets paid, because Trump's doing it right now for the first, for now, for the last month.
Look, I think there was a good off-ramp when the president dismissed the former head of Homeland Security and now named a new one.
I think that was a sign that things are going to change, and you've seen changes.
ICE is no longer that issue that it was two months ago, right?
And so, and myself and a lot of my colleagues on my side of the aisle were not happy with some of the things that were going on with ICE, and we expressed that, expressed in a different way, actually worked inside the government, okay?
And so we saw some changes.
Now, maybe what needs to be said from the administration is, look, these are the things we're going to be actually focusing in on.
There are 700,000 criminal aliens right now still on the loose.
That's plenty of work for ICE.
And I don't think anybody argues with criminal aliens need to be deported.
I don't think anybody argues with this.
Secure the border, 95% issue.
Criminal aliens need to be deported.
Gang members need to be deported.
And those that have active deportation orders, which are about 1.6 million, need to be deported.
That's going to keep ICE very, very busy.
We didn't want, a lot of us were not happy with what went beyond that, all right?
And so I think the administration has gotten that point.
And by the way, Henry Queyar was one of the three Democrats that voted with Republicans on that bill in the House to extend funding for two months.
And ceasefire is going to be aired right after this program at 10 a.m. Eastern.
If you'd like to see that full program, you can stay here on C-SPAN for that.
Bob in Ohio, Democrat, what's your top news story of the week?
unidentified
Top news story of the week is the one that's been ongoing.
We have a president who is dividing the entire country every time he opens his mouth.
He does nothing but lie.
He does nothing but divide.
And that really is the bottom line of things.
We have him earning billions of dollars for his family on our backs and raising our prices as he goes.
And I think it's ridiculous the number of people, doesn't matter which side of the aisle, but most of it is from the conservative right that actually buy into this crap.
And Carl, Independent, Westchester, Pennsylvania, you're on the air.
unidentified
I agree with the last caller, but I just wanted to say, Mimi, you seem to be quite worried about Israel today.
Is our poor baby Israel going to be okay?
They have free education and health care all while we put the bill.
What about all the babies and God are dead now?
Are Hamas still hiding behind civilians today?
Does every Hamas casualty have three babies attached to them?
What about the West Bank settlements?
The thing you've ever asked about that when people criticize Israel on Erin, even when people bring up Israel positively, why don't you ask about their human rights violations on our dime when people say something positive?
Carl, I would appreciate if you can stick to your own comments.
You don't need to worry about my comments.
It's not about what I think.
I will sometimes give an alternate opinion, an alternate viewpoint, so that people can respond to that.
That is not about what I personally think.
This show is not about what I personally think.
So I heard your comments.
Is there anything else you'd like to add about the news story for this week?
unidentified
If you're trying, okay, so Mimi, I appreciate you, but if you're trying to give the contrary opinion, perhaps maybe when people call in about Israel and say such positive things, you can actually give the contrarian opinion to that too.
When you say in Congress, they decided not to pay TSA.
So both what passed the Senate and what passed the House would pay TSA.
But because they're not the same, it doesn't go through.
unidentified
They want changes to ICE.
They want them to take their masks off.
Correct.
And they want them to get judicial warrants for every single arrest because two or three people got killed in these protests.
And they had their own hands in their own demise.
I'm so sorry to say that, but they contributed to their deaths by protesting.
And it's a terrible thing.
But because of these three deaths, they want to totally disrupt the whole nation for it.
And this is the Trump derangement syndrome also.
But these TSA boys can't quit, or they can't strike, but they can quit.
And besides that, it's just terrible that any member of Congress can take paychecks away from humans in this country, in this world where we are today.
It's terrible.
And the Democrats, the way they're fighting Donald Trump, boy, oh boy, when the Democrats, if they ever get in charge again, they're in trouble.
Lack of Clear War Strategy00:02:48
unidentified
The Republicans are going to really lay it on them.
Derek, Independent, Rock Hill, South Carolina, you're on the air.
unidentified
Yes, thank you for taking my call.
A top story I had that I noticed this week was the House Armed Services Committee and what a fiasco had seen it was in terms of Pete Hexes and his group giving direction on the war in Iran.
One of the things that stood out to me is that they don't have a clear strategy.
Also, they appear to be thinking about putting boots on the ground in Iran, a mountainous country, 92 million people, three times the size of Texas.
And it's just asinine.
And it really belies the point that our elected officials and those who have been appointed by the president, including the president, don't know what they're doing in terms of this war for Israel against Iran.
And by the way, one of their main strategies, one of their main goals is for Iran not to get a nuke.
And what they are doing is they are incentivizing this country to get one.
The previous Ayatollah, Ayatollah Khamenei, the father, had a fatwa, a religious edict, which said it was sinful under their religious structure to get a nuclear weapon.
You kill him.
Now, his son, who is more radical, you could say, more than likely will try to get the bomb.
Besides that, we have a person who has been termed as a madman in North Korea.
They have a nuclear weapon, and nobody is bothering them.
And I wonder why.
And so this whole Iran war, excuse me, is just, it's hard for me to put into words how idiotic and stupid this was to get into this conflict, not to mention the fact that the JCPOA that Obama put in, Iran was abiding by it, and they were not moving toward making a nuclear weapon.
I understand that some folks are going to say, we were enriching Iranian to 60%.
They were going to use that as a bargaining chip to give away in negotiations to put another JCPOA-like format and structure in so that folks in this country or this government and the sanctions could be relieved and that Iranians could get on and live their lives.
This is Politico, Top Republican, attacks Pentagon for not providing details on Iran.
It says the House Armed Services Committee Chair said the department owes lawmakers more information about the administration's plans for U.S. troops in the Middle East.
And, of course, you can watch all those hearings on our website, c-span.org, if you missed them earlier.
And this is Lisa in Atlanta, Georgia, Democrat.
Hi, Lisa.
unidentified
Hi, Amini.
I just want to let you know that you are, you do an exceptional job.
You are the best.
I just want to let you know that.
My top story this week, if you have some information, I don't know if it was talked about before I called in or before I tuned in, about the insider trading that is going on with this war and how Trump family is making billions dollars off of the war.
How Jerry Kushner is, the companies are making billions of dollars off of this war.
I still haven't gotten over the $40 billion that Trump gave to Argentini and Chrissy Noam's the commercials of $200 million.
Trump got his hands in American government treasury, treating it like it is his own personal bank account.
He has no oversight of what he is spending out of the treasury.
And that should be, that should scare the heck out of everybody.
What is going on with this insider trading and Trump family making billions of dollars off of this war?
People are sending their sons.
Their sons are getting killed.
And we do not know the strategy, the end game of what is going on with this war.
Trump talks out of both sides of his mouth and he's just confusing the American people.
And, you know, this is not Trump's money.
He should not be spending money out of the treasury like this.
Yeah, no, so Lisa, I just wanted to tell you a couple things.
So we did, we haven't talked about it this morning, but we had a segment, a full segment yesterday, yesterday's program, the Friday program, with Craig Holman.
He is of Public Citizen talking about the whole issue of insider trading, the betting going on.
And I also wanted to show you an article on NBC News in case you want more information on this topic.
The headline is, Insider Trading Concerns Around Oil and Military Moves Are On the Rise.
Can anyone police the bets?
It says, so far, no American has faced federal charges related to insider trading on event-driven news, but accusations about questionable trades are mounting.
Here's Joe in Dayton, Ohio, a Republican.
Hi, Joe.
unidentified
Hi, good morning from a beautiful sunny day in Ohio.
Mimi, I got a couple comments.
Number one, no one has talked about the Democrat congresswoman in southern Florida who embezzled, I think it was probably close to $4 million of COVID funds.
And Hakeem Jeffries is refusing to take her off the remove her seat, but she has now been convicted of doing that.
And now you've got other Democrats finally coming out this week, and they want her gone.
So, Joe, that's Representative Sheila Scherfilis-McCormick of Florida.
Yes, go right ahead.
unidentified
And then, number two, Mimi, is these people make me laugh.
See, my parents and my grandparents lived under Benito Mussolini, fascist.
That's why my parents came here to the United States, was to get away from fascism.
These people make me laugh when they have these king rallies and king parades or whatever.
If Donald Trump was truly a king, do you honestly, I'm not going to ask you any for your comment, of course, but do you honestly believe that they would be able to have a king's rally or parade?
That would never happen.
The police would round them all up and, you know, all the secret police would round them all up and then have them put in camps and maybe killed.
I mean, that is just unheard of.
We live in a free country that we're able to express our First Amendment rights.
There are no kings in this country.
And these are nothing but paid protesters.
And number three, real quick, Mimi, to your last caller, she's concerned about insider training and about who's making money off of this military.
Mimi, I made a fortune on NVIDIA chip on NVIDIA stock.
I bought it at $90 a share.
And then when Nancy Pelosi passed it, passed the CHIP Act, I bought 2,000 shares of it.
I got to run because later in the program, we'll talk to Washington Examiner's Anna Giratelli.
She'll discuss the future of the Homeland Security Department under newly appointed Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen.
But coming up first, we'll look at the latest news coming out of Iran with global affairs journalist Elise Labbitt.
unidentified
We'll be right back.
Watch America's Book Club, C-SPAN's bold original series.
Sunday, with our guest, Beverly Gage, a professor of American history at Yale.
Her book, G-Man, J. Edgar Hoover, and The Making of the American Century, received numerous literary awards and prizes, including the Pulitzer Prize for Biography, the Bancroft Prize in American History, the National Book Critics Circle Award for Biography, and the Los Angeles Times Book Prize in Biography.
Her most recent book is This Land is Your Land, a road trip through U.S. History.
She joins our host, renowned author and civic leader David Rubinstein.
Now, when biographers spend five years, 10 years, 15 years or so with a person, they often fall in love with them because they spend so much time with them.
Did you fall in love with J. Edgar Hoover or do you come away saying, geez, he's not as good as I thought or wished he was?
First of all, the U.S. and Israel have made spectacular, I would say, success in terms of the targets they went after, which are the Iranian missiles, the depots, the weapons cachets, certainly going after a lot of the leadership of the regime, the Israelis, that is, and hitting close to 10,000 targets.
So they've been degrading the Iranian weapons capability and also some of their nuclear capability.
However, Iran is still proving resilient.
Not only what they're doing now is they're reserving missiles to be very strategic with them, but they're also using drones, which are low cost, very effective, and harder to shoot down.
So the Iranians are proving to be still in the game.
And everyone has seen that they've closed the Strait of Hormuz, which is where 20% of the world's oil goes through.
A lot of shipping goes through.
And so they've really grinded the oil market to a halt, shipping to a halt, and as we've seen, gone after the Gulf.
So even as the U.S. continues with Israel to degrade Iran's weapons capability and ability to wreak havoc, they're still wreaking havoc.
So the war is not over and it's not finished no matter what President.
Well, we've seen that part of Iran's strategy is not only to go after Israeli and U.S. targets in the region, but the Gulf.
Why is that?
To show that they can cause pain throughout the whole region, and really, this is about the global economy and grinding it to a halt and causing pain not only for the Gulf allies, but putting pressure on the U.S.
The old king Abdullah said, cut the head off the snake.
They did cut the head off the snake, right?
They killed the supreme leader.
But you don't know what's, I think a couple of weeks ago we said, we don't know what's going to grow back in that head, right?
It could be more dangerous.
What the Saudis said originally is that the defense minister came here and said to, and what Prince, what Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman had said, is, here are your various scenarios.
If you're going to go and use military action, and we're not advocating that you do, but if you do, you have to go all the way.
You can't, as you say, be half pregnant on this, right?
And so now the Saudis are saying, okay, you're in.
You have to be all in.
You have to finish the job.
And I wouldn't be surprised if we see the Saudis get in.
And the Saudis have been shooting a lot of missiles down, working with the Gulf allies in defense.
You know, the president says negotiations are going well.
The Iranians say there are no negotiations.
I think what we could say is there are indirect talks going on.
Countries like Egypt, Pakistan, Turkey, Qatar are kind of being intermediaries between the Iranians and the United States, putting proposals.
We heard about this 15-point proposal by President Trump that he sent to the Iranians.
Essentially, Mimi, unconditional surrender.
Give up everything, stop the war, give up all your nuclear material, cut support for proxies.
And the Iranians are saying, look, we have the enemy, as I say, and this is what we want.
They gave five points, which is basically pay us for all the damage that you did, stop the war, give us control over the Strait of Hormuz.
So you can see how far apart those two sides are.
And listen, Iran is continuing to be degraded, but you can see how it still is able to cause havoc by closing off the Strait of Hormuz.
One thing that we saw very interesting is that the Houthis, this proxy in Yemen, supported this Iranian proxy last night or yesterday, launched a missile towards Iran.
It could be two things, that the Iranians kind of held them strategically for now, or they were really damaged Damaged after October 7th, and so they wanted to keep their powder dry until they were really needed.
And what they're threatening to do now is close off this alternative shipping route and oil route that the Saudis use a lot, which is the Babel-Mindeb Strait.
And that, if you close off the Strait of Hormuz and you close off this area, that's really kind of choking the oil market and shipping and really the global economy.
You know, I heard an analyst say that essentially from now on, Iran is going to use the Strait of Hormuz as a giant toll booth and just milk it because now they realize how much power they have over global markets and say, look, anybody that goes through is going to have to pay us handsomely.
President Trump said it was a big present for him, but it was a present for the Iranians because, you know, they're letting Chinese go through or Malaysian go through.
You know, these countries need the oil and are willing to pay.
And this is what, listen, the Iranians have always said, you know, want to go to war, we're going to close off the Strait of Hormuz.
I think it's still not like what we saw in Iraq, 150,000 troops and for a ground invasion.
But the suspicion is that this is to take Kar.
And sources that I've spoken to that are informed say this is for Karg Island.
This is what the Iranians are using to kind of choke off the Strait of Hormuz.
And that's where all of their oil depots are, where they hold all of their oil.
So if the U.S. has a small expeditionary force to hold the Strait of Hormuz, that really takes away a lot of the Iranian leverage.
So I would say, Cliff, a couple more weeks at, you know, at best, but if you're going to take Karg Island, then if you're going to try and get that Iranian enriched uranium, which is fissile material used to make a nuclear weapon, those troops could also be used for that.
I mean, obviously, it was an opportunity to talk to our allies on the G7 and outline the perspective of what we have going on with Iran.
We talked about a lot of things, but obviously in the Iran operation.
And we're very clear, as we've been from the very beginning, the objectives of this mission have been clear from the very first night the president announced it.
We're going to destroy Iran's Navy.
We've destroyed their Air Force.
We are going to basically destroy their ability to make missiles and drones in their factories.
And we're going to substantially, and I mean dramatically reduce the number of missile launchers so that they cannot hide behind these things to build a nuclear weapon and threaten the world.
As the Department of War has consistently outlined, we are on or ahead of schedule on that operation and expect to conclude it at the appropriate time here in a matter of weeks, not months.
And the progress is going very well.
Obviously, we have some work to do.
We have to finish the job, and we are finishing that job.
He said, I don't think ground troops are necessary.
I think that if you want to reach all of your objectives, which is getting that nuclear material, you can't do it from the air.
So unless the Iranians are going to dig it up and hand it over to us, which looks unless there's a deal and they agree to do that, you would have to have troops on the ground.
I want to encourage first the public to start listening to Judging Freedom with Judge Napolitano.
He used to be on Fox News.
And I'll ask her a question, but they're having people like Colonel Wilkerson on, who was under the Bush administration.
They're having the former weapons inspector in Iraq, Scott Ritter on, regularly, which C-SPAN or Washington Journal had on many times in the past, but I'm not sure why you guys aren't having him on now.
And former CIA Middle East analyst Ray McGovern, who told the truth prior to the invasion of Iraq.
But so I want to encourage you guys to have some other guests on who aren't so pro-war like this lady.
She just said, you know, Iran is causing havoc or wreaking havoc.
I mean, that's all a matter of perspective because many of us believe that Israel and the U.S. are wreaking havoc in that part of the world.
Many well-informed and people within the governments have said that Iran was no imminent threat, including Rubio said that.
So I want to ask this guest, we know that Israel has nuclear weapons.
Iran does not.
So I want to ask her, because a lot of these way more well-informed and on the inside experts have said that Israel is highly likely to use the nuclear weapons, as well as why are we not getting information on the damage done in Israel?
And I want to make a comment about Joe from Dayton earlier saying that the people who will be at the indivisible rallies today are paid.
I think I'm trying to just kind of lay out the calculus of both the U.S. and the Iranians.
I know Colonel Wilkerson.
I was at the State Department during that war and knew him working with Kohler Powell and Scott Ritter as well.
I don't know CIA General McGovern.
It is true that Israel does have nuclear weapons.
We don't talk about it that much.
But I think it's pretty well documented that Israel does have a nuclear arsenal.
I don't know that they would use it.
I think people consider nuclear weapons as a kind of last case scenario.
And in terms of Iran, I think agree that the word imminent is what people are getting on right now.
What the Trump administration is saying is that the threat would be that they were about to build it, and I think that's negligible.
But they were trying to prevent Iran from coming together and get a nuclear weapon.
And that's why I said earlier, if they don't go for that nuclear material, then you're not really ending what they say is the main question here about preventing Iran from having a nuclear weapon.
And we know that Iran has enough material to build it.
They haven't been able to what we call weaponize, which is fit a nuclear warhead on a ballistic missile.
So they are a ways away, but estimates do say they could do have enough material probably within a couple of months or something to build a bomb.
So, you know, yes, you need to see where this goes and whether the U.S. is really going to get rid of that nuclear fissile material.
My question is, I have a question, then I'd like to make the comment.
My question is, the oil tankers that seem to be coming out that Iran is shipping out, why would we not seize them once they come through the strait and cut off their money-making machine?
That I don't quite understand.
And then my comment is, Mr. President, finish this job.
Don't leave it for my three and a half-year-old grandson.
And number two, set you side on the Panama Canal before we have a conflict.
Like, you don't, you know, President Trump said that he didn't want to have forever wars, right?
And when we were in Iraq the first time or Afghanistan, that was 20 years, and that would put Jay's grandson kind of squarely in.
So I think the U.S. doesn't want another forever war.
You know, you hear Secretary Rubio, the president, it's almost finished.
We don't know if it's almost finished, but they're not talking about years long.
On those oil tankers, that's a great question, Jay.
Why they're not seizing them after they come out.
Those are international waters, and I think the U.S. probably doesn't want to get into that, you know, kind of international water, you know, not necessarily Iranian territory.
So it is like a, you know, it's complete antithetical to what the goals are, right?
And what the president says is, okay, well, that oil was headed directly for China.
Now we're putting it on the oil market and everyone will get it and it'll ease up oil prices.
Listen, and they also lifted sanctions on Russian oil.
And so now we were trying to end the war in Ukraine and the Russians are getting additional money from their oil, lifting sanctions so they can continue to fight Ukraine.
So all of the things that the administration says they're trying to do in terms of squeezing these countries isn't really happening.
And the Panama Canal, something to watch, Jay, the administration has been saying, and you see what happened with Venezuela and the region, the U.S. is much more active.
And the president has spoken about the Panama Canal before.
I don't think we're looking at a 20-year war like we were with Iraq because the administration is very clear that it doesn't want what we call nation-building, right?
Which is part of the reason that the U.S. stayed in Afghanistan, stayed in Iraq, was to try and help shape what came after.
And that was what took so long.
I think Iran is going to be significantly more degraded in the next few weeks.
The goal, I think, is to really squeeze the Iranians so hard that they have to make some kind of a deal.
And even though there are people that say that President Trump is eager to see this through, I think what he's trying to do right now is still create a lot of leverage.
But Kenneth is right that you're not going to be able to get the nuclear material without putting some kind of forces on the ground.
I don't think we're looking at 100,000, Kenneth, from what people are saying, military experts.
They're sending about 17,000 to the region.
I think you're looking probably more in the area of 20,000 troops.
But still, that's a lot of troops.
I mean, it's a lot.
It's not like a team of 10 people going down there and digging it up.
They're easy to make, they're cheap, and that's why now the targets, there were the missiles and the interceptors, and now they're trying to go after the drones depots and the drone production facilities.
So if you can go after the production facilities, first you get rid of the drones that are available or the missiles that are available, and the drones are harder to get.
But if you can go after the facilities and then you get rid of the arsenal, that's making a significant damage.
And I think in a few weeks we're going to see some of those targets being hit.
Howard, Fort Lee, New Jersey, Independent, you're on the air.
unidentified
Good morning.
I have a what-if question.
What if we send in about 5,000 troops to take over Carg Island and the Iranians basically take over part of Carg Island and captivate and capture 20 to 50 United States troops and start hanging them one day at a time, every day, one day at a time.
Well, I'm not a military expert, and I don't know once the U.S. takes over, if the U.S. were to take over Carg Island, you know, I think they would try to make sure that they've already started hitting some of the military facilities in Carg Island.
They haven't hit the oil, but they're going after some of the military facilities.
And so I would assume that the U.S. would actually kind of take over all superiority of the island before they put troops on the ground.
But that is a, you know, you think back to Blackhawk Down when in Somalia, when, you know, the American troops were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu.
Like that's the image that's still in, or the American hostages.
Those images are still in our thoughts and in our memory, seared into our memory.
And, you know, listen, you've seen like when Israel, when one soldier is taken, remember Gilad Shalit, how much it affects the negotiation, what you're willing to negotiate.
Okay, and he is, I think, I think Trump and them are talking.
When they say they are talking to somebody, I think they're dealing with him.
And he was talking about coming back, not to take, because they want the Iranian people to vote to get the new regime in, but he was talking about coming back and rising up with the people of Iran.
So I think there is negotiations going on that we don't know about.
I think there's a lot that's going to happen in the next couple of weeks.
Do you think that that's a possibility?
That's number one.
And number two, where do you get your information?
When I hear you talk and you're bringing up all kinds of stuff, can you tell me where exactly is, are you talking to Trump's people?
Are you talking to the Pentagon?
Who are you talking to when you give us information on C-SPAN?
My former New Jersey girl, I grew up in New Jersey as well.
So first of all, when I'm talking to people, I'm talking to a lot of different sources.
I covered the State Department for 20 years, and so I have a lot of sources in and out of the government and experts.
And I talk to people in the region, diplomats.
So it's like a wide range.
And we talk to, you know, we don't here at C-SPAN look at, you know, any ideological.
We're just talking to people to get that information and give it to everybody and not really make a judgment on it either way.
So on the Reza Pahlavi, who is the son of the former Shah that was deposed by the U.S., you know, that was put in by the U.S. and, you know, that whole history of the U.S. in Iran.
He does have, you know, this kind of nostalgia, his father, for, you know, a time in Iran where things were better.
I think what he's seen as, and a lot of diaspora, Iranians that live outside of Iran, and a lot of people inside Iran, see him as maybe someone, as you said, that could be, Jerry, a bridging figure until a transitional figure if the regime were to collapse.
It's questionable how much support he has.
The administration has talked to him.
I don't think they see him as somebody who has a big constituency in the country.
Interesting enough, CPAC, the conservative conference, which will be covered on C-SPAN this weekend, he's speaking to C-SPAN to CPAC, which is kind of interesting.
The Israelis are certainly talking to him, but I'm not sure.
And I know that he's met with Steve Wickoff and others at Mar-a-Lago.
I'm just not really sure how much the administration sees him as someone that they're ready to work with.
And I think, to be quite honest, I think that if, you know, when you want to get rid of a regime, there are two things that you could do.
You could get rid of the entire regime, which is what I think the Israelis are trying to do, or you could, you know, try and have like a transition where you work with some people in the regime and try to create the conditions for eventual transition to another Venezuela model.
The Venezuela.
The only problem is this Del C Rodriguez, this Maduro deputy that is in there now, that doesn't really exist in Iran because it's not figures, it's more of a system.
I would like to point out that the war with Iran has been going on now for 47 plus years and they've killed thousands of Americans ever since then.
The caliphate that has taken over Iran is a radical, extremely radical version of Islam.
We are at war with this radicalism.
The people who run that caliphate in Iran are commanded in their minds, they're commanded by Mohammed and by extension, Allah, God, to kill the infidels wherever they are, whoever they are,
Richard, Grove City, Ohio, Independent Line, you're on the air.
unidentified
Yes.
I got a real basic question.
Sometimes I think the Iranians are really stupid for citing the non-proliferation pact.
If they had a nuclear weapon and had demonstrated that they had like an underground test or something along that line, would we be doing what we're doing right now?
That's a great question nobody talks about, Richard, which is you look at a country like North Korea, you know, did a test.
Is a nuclear, you know, no one wants to recognize it as a nuclear state and bring it into the nuclear group, if you will, but no one's taking military action against North Korea.
Well, I mean, that's, you know, that's the real kind of irony of nuclear weapons, George, is that, you know, the U.S. and look at the U.S. and the USSR, the Soviet Union, and now Russia.
It's really a deterrence.
And, you know, the responsible nuclear states, yes, it is deterrence.
And a lot of people think that all states, would they really use it, although, you know, Russia has threatened to use it recently during this war in Ukraine.
The question has always been whether Iran wanted to use it or wanted to have what they call this nuclear umbrella that gave them the deterrence to be able to do whatever they else wanted in the region.
I don't really know if they would use it, but I will say that it's a good point that going after them almost like kind of encourages you to go.
A lot of people think that now that Iran's going to rush to make a nuclear weapon, look at what happened to Libya.
Libya gave up all of its nuclear weapons.
The U.S. took them out and all of its material.
The U.S. took it out of Libya, and then the regime was toppled anyway.
So, you know, for rogue states, the message is you need a nuclear weapon.
And that's like, you know, the big irony of nuclear weapons.
Later in the program, we'll talk to Washington Examiner's Anna Giratelli.
She'll discuss the future of the Homeland Security Department under the newly appointed Secretary, Mark Wayne Mullen.
But first, it's open forum.
You can start calling in now.
Democrats are on 202-748-8000.
Republicans 202-748-8001.
And Independents 202-748-8002.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
Watch America's Book Club, C-SPAN's bold original series.
Sunday with our guest, Beverly Gage, a professor of American history at Yale.
Her book, G-Man, J. Edgar Hoover, and The Making of the American Century, received numerous literary awards and prizes, including the Pulitzer Prize for Biography, the Bancroft Prize in American History, the National Book Critics Circle Award for Biography, and the Los Angeles Times Book Prize in Biography.
Her most recent book is This Land is Your Land, a Road Trip Through U.S. History.
She joins our host, renowned author and civic leader David Rubinstein.
Now, when biographers spend five years, 10 years, 15 years or so with a person, they often fall in love with them because they spend so much time with them.
Did you fall in love with J. Edgar Hoover or did you come away saying, geez, he's not as good as I thought or wished he was?
As a follow-up to the most recent BookNotes Plus, featuring Seth Harp on his book, Fort Bragg Cartel, we are replaying an interview from June 12, 2012.
The guest on QA, the television program, was 31-year-old Michael Hastings, author of the book, The Operators, which he said is what the special forces call themselves.
It is based on a Rolling Stone article that allegedly led to the dismissal of General Stanley McChrystal, who is a commander of the Joint Special Operations Command from 2003 to 2008.
One year almost to the day after our interview with Michael Hastings, he was killed in an automobile accident when he was driving in Los Angeles at 4.25 in the morning.
unidentified
We revisit an interview with author Michael Hastings about his book, The Operators, The Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in Afghanistan.
BookNotes Plus with our host Brian Lamb is available wherever you get your podcasts and on the C-SPAN Now app.
A new era of space exploration is underway.
C-SPAN brings you special live coverage of the Artemis II moon mission launch.
Join us Wednesday with live video from the Kennedy Space Center.
We'll also bring you expert analysis on the mission and its crew.
Watch your calls as the nation looks ahead to returning astronauts to the moon's surface.
Don't miss C-SPAN's special coverage of the Artemis II moon mission launch.
House Democratic Leader Response00:05:01
unidentified
Join us Wednesday at 4.30 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app, or online at C-SPAN.org.
Welcome back to Open Forum, your chance to weigh in on the many political news stories of the day.
As a reminder, we would love to hear from you if you want to call in and you're a Democrat.
The number is 202-748-8000, Republicans 202-748-8001.
And Independents 202-748-8002.
You can also text us here at C-SPAN 202-748-8003 or weigh in on social media.
We'd love to hear from you.
There is a lot going on.
Today, of course, is day 43 of the partial government shutdown impacting the Department of Homeland Security.
You could see here a headline from The Hill.
After rejecting a Senate deal, House passes short-term DHS funding bill.
This happened late Friday night after a pretty chaotic 24-hour period on Capitol Hill, where the Senate voted through a funding bill Thursday night into Friday, and then the House rejected that and voted on its own.
So the shutdown continues.
Here's a glimpse of what House Republicans were saying before the vote, expressing their frustration with what the Senate passed.
I'm quite convinced that it can't be that every Senate Republican read the language of this bill.
And I'm going to just read you one excerpt of it because it's pretty alarming and it says everything that you need to know in Section 4.
This is on page 2 of the bill.
This is an actual copy of the bill, that excerpt.
It says, quote, the contents printed under the headings of this bill, U.S. Immigration AND Customs Enforcement AND Border Security Operations under THE heading of U.S. Customs AND Border Patrol AND Protection shall have no force or effect for purposes of this act, and amounts specified in the final bill under the subheading Border Security Operations and under the heading U.S. Customs AND Border Protection and under the headings of U.S.
Immigration AND Customs Enforcement and the Department OF Homeland Security shall be ZERO.
We're not doing that.
And it is unconscionable to me that the Democrats would force some sort of negotiation at 3 o'clock in the morning and try to hoist this upon the American people and then get on their jets and go home for their holiday and pretend and think that we're going to go along with that.
So we're going to do something different.
We're going to do the responsible thing.
Republicans are going to continue to govern and do the right thing morally, legally, and politically.
We are going to take care of those who take care of us.
So that was House Speaker Mike Johnson on Friday before convening the House late Friday night to vote on this separate opposing funding bill for the Department of Homeland Security.
It did ultimately pass.
Three Democrats joined Republicans in voting for it.
But as the Speaker alluded to, because the Senate had passed their own version and then left town, it's unclear where things stand.
But we want to tell you what Democrats were saying.
Here is what House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries had to say after it became clear that House Republicans were going to take this alternative route.
You know, Megan Mike Johnson is really struggling right now.
They have a new message every week.
But you know what also is happening?
Republicans have been losing elections for the last 15 consecutive months, over and over and over again, including in deep red places like Texas, Louisiana, and most recently in Florida.
As a matter of fact, Donald Trump will now be represented at Mar-a-Lago by a Democrat in a district that he previously won by double digits.
Make no mistake, Republicans are falling apart.
When are they going to learn their lesson that the American people are rejecting their extremism and actually want Congress to focus on making life better for everyday Americans?
That's what Democrats are continuing to do.
We're fighting to lower the high cost of living, to fix our broken health care system, to clean up corruption, to get ICE under control, to end the chaos at airports, to stop this reckless war of choice, and to actually focus on the things that matter.
The American people know Republican priorities have nothing to do with making their life better and everything to do with jamming their extreme and radical right-wing ideology down the throats of the American people.
And Exhibit A today is the fact that House Republicans are rejecting a bipartisan bill supported by 53 Republican senators that would end the chaos at the airports, pay TSA, and stop inconveniencing millions of Americans.
That was House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries before the vote last night.
One more component to this that President Trump stepped in to do yesterday.
Here's an article from the federal news network.
It says Trump signs order to pay TSA employees amid shutdown standoff.
The president on Friday directed the Homeland Security Department to redirect funding to pay Transportation Security Administration employees, even as other DHS staff continue to go without pay during the partial government shutdown.
Let's hear now from some callers.
First up, we have Catherine calling in from Panama City, Florida on the Republican line.
Good morning, Catherine.
You're on.
Actually, let's go to Mia calling in on the independent line from Maryland.
Good morning, Mia.
unidentified
Good morning.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to be a bit vitriolic this morning.
How does it feel for the reporters at C-SPAN and the reporters by extension at legacy media to how do you guys feel knowing that you're part of the propaganda machine that is brainwashing and destroying our country because you guys are being beholden to the powers that are controlling our government?
How does it feel reporting on a war that is completely illegal because we've done so many, knowing that our boys are dying because of oil and money to interest in our government?
You know, I know that you guys are getting very scared that due to social media and the world being so small now and being connected by all of these things, now everyone's waking up.
Republicans, Democrats, progressives, libertarians, we're all waking up to how you guys are just running this propaganda machine.
And I want to know how that feels for you because here's the thing.
Our government is being run by Israeli interests.
They wanted us to attack a country, so we did.
And now we're going to have a hard time getting out of there.
Our boys are dying over there for nothing.
We cannot just have a time of peace in this country.
And then we made Iran give up their nuclear weapons so there was no deterrent, you know, for us attacking them.
You're making it seem like they're the bad guys for the past 40 or 50 some odd years when we're the ones that keep toppling people's governments so that we can control their resources.
So again, how does it feel being a part of this propaganda machine?
Because we're waking up.
And if all the parties unite of regular Americans, knowing that you guys are destroying our way of life, destroying our standard of living, and all of those things, when we wake up, what are you guys going to do about it?
Because you're going to be on the wrong side of history.
I think to your point, and we're going to be talking about this shortly, there's actually another No Kings Day protest happening across the country today for people who, it sounds like, feel similarly to you with how the Trump administration has been handling things.
We're going to be talking about that shortly.
Let's hear, though, now from Ed, who's calling in also from Maryland on the Democratic line.
Good morning, Ed.
unidentified
Good morning.
I'm going to talk about DHS funding.
I disagree with my Democratic Party.
We do not shut down government, not paying the TSA workers.
These are people who don't make a lot of money.
Tariffs alone should disqualify the RE Republican Party.
We just do not do that.
What they are fighting about are masks, badges, and cameras.
They're causing all of this pain for these people not getting their paycheck.
I just want to say I disagree with what my Democratic Party is doing right now.
When a party is falling off the cliff, that's what the Republican Party is doing.
To your point, there were three Democrats who joined House Republicans on Friday night voting for that alternate funding measure.
One of them was a Washington State Congresswoman, Marie Gluzen-Camp Perez, who talked about her desire to see reforms to immigration and customs enforcement, known as ICE.
But she said, to your point, she wanted to see people get paid and she did not think the shutdown was the way to leverage that.
Let's go now to Minnesota.
Craig calling in on the Republican line from Cass Lake.
I'm going to move on just so we could get some more voices in.
As a reminder for folks, you can call in here on Open Forum: Democrats 202-748-8000.
Republicans 202-748-8001.
Independents 202-748-8002.
Let's go up to Ithaca, New York, up in upstate.
Faye is calling in on the Democratic line.
Good morning, Faye.
unidentified
Good morning, C-SPAN.
My first concern, I have several points, is the protection of our vote.
Because everything that is happening, which is horrifying to me, is going so Trump is going to try to suppress the vote.
It is very clear that this is already happening.
And I'm afraid he's going to call for martial law and call for ICE officers to be at the voting booths.
And I plead with Republicans to not support this kind of imperialism.
The hypocrisy of this administration, I mean, talking about what other countries do and authoritarianism, when that's happening here, this administration is completely fraudulent.
Okay, they don't go before Congress.
It's unbelievable how rogue it is.
Okay, it has really taken over the country.
It is a coup.
And what he does to the media, which I appreciate C-SPAN, by the way, I saw the history last week with Brian Lamb and Susan, and I appreciate everything they've done and having C-SPAN.
But what Trump is doing to the media, he's trying to suppress the truth.
And this is so important.
The guy talks about everybody being derained.
But guess what?
He is the one who's derained.
And I'm not trying to say that to be mean.
It is the truth.
He has mental health issues, and he is beholden not to our country.
He is beholden, it's so obvious, to Russia or Netanyahu or other countries that are in with this scam, because it is a scam.
Let's go now uh, to Lewis or Louise, you could tell me which are.
Which is correct, from Groveland Florida, calling in on the republican line.
unidentified
Good morning yes, good morning, C-span.
Um, I just had a couple of topics, um that i'd like to discuss uh, one of which is is just common sense.
Anytime and you, you tell me, anytime you go on vacation to any country on this planet, whether you fly, whether you go by cruise, it doesn't matter you have to fill out a paperwork that says the date you're coming in, the date you're leaving and where you are staying.
And the reason why they do that is to control who is coming into that country.
Why is it that we have to have open borders and just let anyone in without knowing what their intentions are, who they are and whether they can take care of themselves or not?
It just makes no sense.
On another note, this whole thing with Iran this is the best thing, the reason why I say that is Iran for years has been causing issues all over the world um, with terrorism, with Isis, with Hezbollah, and it needs to stop.
Several folks have mentioned and we've talked about how today is the latest edition of the No Kings Day protests and we have Leah Greenberg joining us.
She is a co-founder and co-executive director of the group Indivisible, which is one of the organizers of today's events.
So a lot of people are probably familiar with No Kings Day as they played out over the last year.
There were events back in june of 2025, october of 2025.
Several million people turned out.
For each of them, there were thousands of locations.
What can you share about today's goals and what kind of you're hoping to build on in terms of what we saw over the last year?
unidentified
Well, today we are seeing 3300 uh protests across six continents, and one of the things that we think is most exciting and interesting about this is how much of that spread has really been outside, outside of city centers and into red and rural areas.
The majority of protests taking place across the country at this point are in uh are outside of urban centers, they are suburbs, they are rural areas.
What we're seeing is that the outrage uh against Donald Trump, against his illegal, catastrophic war, his masked secret police, that all while costs are rising for American families.
Can you talk about a bit what is planned specifically in Minnesota?
Because it, of course, was such a hotbed for national attention back in January with the immigration raids and with the deadly shootings of Renee Good and Alex Predi.
So what are the goals there?
unidentified
Well, we think it's really important that Americans really hear the story of Minnesota, how this state faced a brutalizing occupying invasion by Donald Trump secret police, a reign of terror, racial profiling that was pushed back by the organized, dedicated efforts of regular people, immigrant rights organizers, union folks, teachers and faith leaders and moms and retirees,
all collectively coming together and organizing to say, we're going to protect each other, we're going to protect our neighbors, and we don't allow this kind of massive overreach by the government in our country.
We are pushing back together.
That is a story that the rest of the country really needs to hear.
And so we're leaning in.
We're leaning in with the help of folks like Bruce Springsteen to tell the stories of the people who organized to protect their neighbors in Minnesota because we think it's a lesson that the rest of the country really needs to absorb.
I wanted to get your response to an op-ed that was published on MS Now's website just yesterday by a man named Christian Schneider.
He's a contributing writer for the National Review.
He hosts a podcast and he wrote this criticism of no kings.
He said, what does a politician do in response to no kings?
Trump has already answered that question by going on Fox News and saying, sensibly enough, I'm not a king.
He's right technically.
And that's the trap the movement has walked itself into.
When your protest is built around a metaphor rather than a policy, you've handed your opponent an easy exit.
He wrote, organizers have enlisted heavyweights, including the Service Employees International Union, the Human Rights Campaign, the National Education Association, Move On, and United We Dream, among others.
But it means the grievances on display at the protest will range from immigration and customs enforcement to LGBTQ rights to federal science funding to Gaza to the cost of groceries to the war with Iran.
When everyone is marching, no one is marching for anything in particular.
What's your response?
unidentified
Well, first of all, I'd say if he thinks he's not a king, then he is welcome to stop acting like one.
We are right now in the middle of an illegal, catastrophic war that he launched on his own and is driving up all of our costs that is costing a billion dollars a day, money that could be going to health care and education.
He literally dispatched a masked secret police to brutalize an American state because they did not vote for him out of a political grievance.
These are the actions of a man who believes he is above any kind of law, who is not accountable to any other branch of government, who is not accountable to the American people.
So he is welcome to hear the message of the protest and step back.
But until he does that, we're going to continue to push.
And from what we're seeing, collectively, people want to come together across issues.
We want to stand up for each other, right?
We are here because we care about immigrant neighbors, our immigrant neighbors.
We are here because we care about civil rights.
We are here because we care about the families whose health care premiums are going up.
It's not a matter of having one specific demand.
It's a matter of anyone who goes to a No Kings rally, any politician who speaks at that No Kings rally coming away and thinking, oh gosh, I got to fight harder because people are expecting me to do everything that I can to protect my constituents.
And maybe that ask, maybe that's going to look different if you are a local city councilman or if you are the attorney general or the governor of your state.
But collectively, our message is that the people are furious, we are outraged, and we expect everyone who is in any position of power to take every action they can to protect people and push back.
I'm looking at the No Kings website and there's a section that talks about the flagship rally at the Minnesota State Capitol.
Among the attendees there, Governor Tim Walz, Senator Bernie Sanders, Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.
I'm curious from your perch, especially as you've heard from some of the callers, frustration with Congress over the DHS shutdown and the impasse there.
Do you think, especially Democrats in this context, are doing enough on Capitol Hill and here in Washington that reflects the energy and the turnout that you've all been seeing and trying to build upon through No Kings over the last year?
unidentified
Well, I think you see some interactions.
I think you have seen Democrats' spines get stiffer as they have seen people stand up all over the country, right?
What we are seeing right now is that for the last month and a half, Democrats have repeatedly offered to fund TSA, to fund all the other aspects of DHS except for ICE and CBP, for which they need to see significant reforms that would stop this lawless reign of terror.
And they've held firm on that.
And that is good.
That is a good action.
That is something that our folks are ready to stand up and cheer with.
The message that we are saying is not that we are aligned.
This is not a partisan movement.
It is that we will stand with people who fight for us.
And what we've seen over the last month and a half is Democrats actually taking a stand and fighting.
I'm thinking back to a few callers within the last 10 minutes who expressed their deep discontent with the president.
And they basically were talking about everything from lawmakers to the media not doing enough in their view to call out the criticisms they have.
What do you say to folks who argue, great, a day of protests is wonderful and it's cool to see the grassroots aspect of it, but that's not changing anything.
Do you think there are deeper ways for your organization and for this movement to sink into it?
Or is right now big gatherings like this the best approach?
unidentified
Well, let's be real.
We're organizing every day.
The media only calls us and asks us to go on TV when we have the big protests, but my people are out there every single day.
They are doing mutual aid.
They are doing immigrant defense.
They are doing advocacy.
They are organizing and registering voters.
This is actually one of those moments where you see the wave crest, but that doesn't mean that the wave has not been building out at sea for a long time.
And frankly, every major No Kings event is also a recruitment event.
When people come out for the first time, it's an easy on-ramp.
It's a welcoming environment in which people are invited to show up, even if they've never been to a protest before.
But somebody gets your phone number.
They invite you to a follow-up meeting.
They ask you to get involved in your community.
These are events that are designed to serve as on-ramps for a larger array of civic activism and engagement.
And we're asking people collectively, you know, show up, absolutely, but don't let that be the end of your involvement.
We are collectively building the power in this country to push back on this administration.
It's never going to be about a single day.
It is going to be about what we can build locally that is capable of making our voices heard over the long term.
What are you hoping this could help or how this could impact the midterm elections in November?
unidentified
Well, look, I've got a lot of folks across the indivisible movement who are collectively already organizing.
They've been organizing in midterm or off-year elections, like in Virginia and New Jersey.
They've been organizing in specials or local elections like the one that recently flipped to Mar-a-Lago Blue.
What we are seeing is that outrage that is expressed in protest regularly translates into voting shortly after.
We saw, you know, the major waves of protest in 2017 and 2018 were followed by a midterm route.
Everything that we are seeing suggests that any Republican who is looking at this should be terrified and should think, oh gosh, maybe I thought my seat was safe, but maybe this is the cycle where there are no safe seats.
Do you think that will be a big factor in today's demonstrations, or do you think it's more on domestic policy issues, you know, when people are going to fill up their gas tank or dealing with groceries or dealing with immigration enforcement in their hometowns?
unidentified
I think all of this is incredibly connected.
We have got a, we've got this violence and authoritarianism at home that is being directed at us and our neighbors, and we've got violence and authoritarianism abroad that is expressed in the form of an illegal, catastrophic war.
That same war is driving up our costs.
Gas costs much more than it did a month ago.
Our grocery costs are going up.
This administration is going to Congress and asking for $200 billion to fund this war that nobody wants while telling us all that there is no money for health care.
There is no money for schools.
There is no money for the things that actually give us a good and dignified life in this country.
So I don't think it's about a domestic versus an international agenda.
I think it is about a collective understanding that this country is on the wrong track, that the forces who are in charge are imperious, unaccountable, uninterested in hearing from the people, and that we have got to have a mass show of defiance that kicks everyone into gear to fight back.
Leah Greenberg, she's the co-founder and co-executive director of Indivisible, one of the organizers for today's No Kings protest that will be happening across the country.
Leah, thanks so much for your time.
And for folks who want to watch here on C-SPAN today at 3 o'clock Eastern Time, there will be coverage of the flagship No Kings protest that's happening in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, as we talked about, Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, they'll be joining singer Bruce Springsteen, along with other celebrities and activists and officials.
You can watch their remarks here on C-SPAN on c-span.org and on our free video app C-SPAN now.
Several million people turned out for the last few No Kings protests, so it'll be interesting to compare the numbers today.
Let's hear from some more callers, whether they want to weigh in on the No Kings Day protests or the war or the ongoing government shutdown.
Let's go to Isaiah, who's calling in from Ohio on the Democratic line.
Do you think the organizers are focusing on the correct things?
Or do you wish that it was being put in a different direction?
unidentified
No, they're doing the best that they can with the tools that they have, but you're actually facing a king.
He has all the tools of the government at his disposal.
He does things and everyone reacts afterwards, which is what a king does.
The only thing that's different from him, as far as being a true king, he doesn't go out and just slaughter people, but he's actually getting his way in the meantime.
I really think the Republicans, even though I am a Republican, but they need to work with the Democrats on these people getting their money.
I mean, I believe I heard on TV a TSA worker on the average made $35,000 to $45,000 a year.
And I mean, that's hard enough for somebody trying to make it on that type of a salary and then have these other things going on.
It just shouldn't be taking place.
And I just feel that, you know, regardless of how the Republicans feel or the Democrats, the Republicans need to think about these workers who are out here working without pay.
Number two, I completely support our nation going against Iran.
I mean, if they would ever gotten nuclear capability, you wouldn't be worrying about high prices of food or gas.
You'd be worried about martial law if they could ever get a nuclear weapon to come over here.
And one more thing.
Number three, I think that the ICE, they need, I back the badge.
I fly it on my car, a tag.
I pay $100 a year extra for it.
But you have to have certain states or certain cities when the Obama administration, when they went in, they actually worked with the illegal aliens that they already have jailed.
And I think the Republicans need to talk with Trump that an illegal alien who's been here 10 years and has never been no problem.
DHS Shutdown Impact Analysis00:03:51
unidentified
There should be a more speedy way for them to become citizens.
The ones that came in through the prior administration, that is the ones you need to worry about.
But the Republicans need to really work on their illegal alien problems.
But if somebody's been here 10 years and has worked and been doing the right thing, there should be a speedier way so they can become a citizen.
Appreciate you touching on all of those topics and appreciate those calling in on Open Forum.
Coming up, we're going to be hearing more about the DHS shutdown.
We're going to be talking to Anna Giratelli.
She's a reporter with the Washington Examiner.
We're going to be talking about the efforts to restore funding to the Department of Homeland Security and also how it will now be run under newly appointed Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen, who just got confirmed and has taken office.
We'll be right back.
unidentified
Book TV, every Sunday on C-SPAN 2, features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books.
Here's a look at what's coming up this weekend.
At 5:30 p.m. Eastern, California Governor Gavin Newsom discusses the moments that influenced his political career in his memoir, Young Man in a Hurry.
And then at 7 p.m. Eastern, it's America's Book Club.
Host David Rubenstein sits down with Major League Baseball Hall of Famer Cal Ripken to talk about his writing and athletic achievements.
At 8.15 p.m. Eastern, radio host Dennis Prager reflects on his latest book, If There Is No God, The Battle Over Who Defines Good and Evil.
And at 9.15 p.m. Eastern, Oliver James in Unread describes being functionally illiterate and learning to read at age 32 while documenting that journey on TikTok.
Watch Book TV every Sunday on C-SPAN 2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.org.
Sunday on C-SPAN's Q&A, former Goldman Sachs CEO Lloyd Blankfein, author of the memoir Streetwise, on his upbringing in public housing in Brooklyn, attending Harvard, and rising through the ranks of one of the world's largest investment banks.
He also talks about the 2008 financial crisis, which happened during his tenure as CEO, and the power and influence of Goldman Sachs executives within the U.S. government going back decades.
There's a lot of ex-Goldman people, you know, so much so that there was a time, and this was meant as a pejorative government sax, as if going into government service was a pejorative.
We took it as a compliment.
And then there were comments about revolving door, but our door didn't revolve.
We didn't hire from government.
Government hired from us because the ethic of Goldman and the people we hire tend to be service-minded.
unidentified
Lloyd Blankfein with his memoir Streetwise, Sunday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN's Q ⁇ A. You can listen to Q ⁇ A and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app or wherever you get your podcasts.
A new era of space exploration is underway.
C-SPAN brings you special live coverage of the Artemis II moon mission launch.
Join us Wednesday with live video from the Kennedy Space Center.
We'll also bring you expert analysis on the mission and its crew.
Watch your calls as the nation looks ahead to returning astronauts to the moon's surface.
Don't miss C-SPAN's special coverage of the Artemis II moon mission launch.
Join us Wednesday at 4:30 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN, C-SPAN Now, our free mobile video app, or online at c-SPAN.org.
It is day 43 of this partial government shutdown impacting DHS.
It seemed like yesterday there was a glimmer of hope that it could end.
But then as we played earlier for our listeners, Republicans in the House said, no, no, no, we want to vote on our alternative funding bill.
What struck you about the last 24 hours?
Were you surprised that the House ended up not going along with what the Senate passed?
unidentified
You know, nothing surprises me at this point.
It is significant, right?
There's been three, four attempts now to come together on this, and they haven't been successful from the House.
I think since Mark Wayne Mullen, the senator, has come in to DHS and taken over, we are seeing increased attempts, you know, possibly likely behind the scenes action by the new Homeland Security Secretary to broker a deal to even get House Democrats and Republicans on board on the same thing.
The House is looking for full funding for DHS and not going to cave on what the House Democrats are seeking, reforms to ICE.
And the Senate is instead looking at funding that would only fund TSA, FEMA, CISA, the Cybersecurity Agency, not include funding for immigration operations, which are already pretty heftily funded.
So they still can't make an agreement.
And as of tomorrow, even though this is a partial government shutdown, it could turn into the longest government shutdown we've ever seen.
We've had a lot of callers this morning talk specifically about TSA agents.
I feel like in many ways they've become the face of this shutdown because of the long security lines at airports and because so many people travel.
Can you go a bit deeper just in to the extent of how have immigration operations at large, the wide umbrella of DHS, what has been impacted by this shutdown and what has been operating kind of business as usual?
Because there are so many different agencies within the department.
They all get different funding streams.
So can you try to break some of that down?
unidentified
They do.
So there's three agencies.
So first within DHS, you have 23 offices and agencies.
It's a huge portfolio for MOLA to oversee.
You have TSA, FEMA, CISA, those are the types of agencies that are not funded right now.
Their employees are not law enforcement.
Whereas you have Customs and Border Protection, a 68,000 person agency, the largest law enforcement agency in the country, which includes Border Patrol, customs officers at the ports.
And then you have ICE, which includes enforcement and removal operations, which are the people who go out and arrest immigrants illegally in the country inside the United States.
And then you have their investigations arm, which is separate.
And you also have Secret Service, which is federal law enforcement, as you know.
It's ICE, Customs and Border Protection, and Secret Service who are funded, but their law enforcement are funded.
So all of the men and women behind the scenes who are not law enforcement, who do the paperwork, who do a thousand different responsibilities are responsible for those things, are not getting paychecks, but being required to work through this.
So it's a mix.
DHS has 260,000 employees, over a quarter of a million.
It's a massive, the third largest in the country.
And right now, as of yesterday, over 80,000 are not getting paychecks throughout this.
And it's only about a third, a little more than a third of the department, but 80,000 is a lot of people.
This isn't their first shutdown to be dragged through this again and continue have to come into work.
The shutdown last fall, the longest government shutdown in history that is currently tied today, lasted 43 days.
So these workers are dealing with basically a bad case of deja vu.
I want to put on screen what Democratic lawmakers have been calling for at the root of this shutdown: demands for ICE reforms for immigration and customs enforcement.
They want to have a judicial warrant to enter private property for these immigration agents.
They want them to display their names and ID numbers, not use conduct enforcement near hospitals, schools, and churches, not wear face coverings.
Interestingly enough, at the airports, we've not seen them wear face coverings, and President Trump has asked for them not to there.
And Democrats also want ICE agents to use body cameras.
Anna, as you've been tracking this shutdown, Democrats have tried to remain as firm as they can on that list.
Do you foresee any scenario where the Trump administration and Republican leadership in Congress accepts any of that list or enough that could lead to an actual deal?
unidentified
I don't.
I think the Trump administration and the White House have been very firm to this point, and they're not looking to buckle.
And the flip side of that is that Senate Democrats, House Democrats, Hakeem Jeffries, has also remained committed to what he's asking for.
And we are in an impasse.
And right now, the trouble, the trouble for Democrats and the good thing for the White House is bringing ICE into the airports.
They started at 13 major U.S. airports earlier this week and now have continued to increase those airports.
I think it's backfired for Democrats.
You know, people were worried, very concerned at the beginning of the week, ICE coming in, being present, even without face masks.
You know, they're in their bulletproof vests.
They're carrying guns.
TSA officers are actually not law enforcement.
They cannot enforce laws.
They are screening individuals.
And it's actually sheriff's departments and police in the local communities who will make an arrest if someone is found to be carrying a gun through security.
But I digress.
And so it's actually, we've seen ICE officers giving out bottles of water to people, engaging in conversations, just being visible.
And I think ICE also has such a diverse workforce besides men and women, but just backgrounds of where people are from, even ages, that I think it's given the public a chance to really see ICE, see who's behind these masks and get to see that.
It's just, it's different than seeing headlines when you see these same officers, some of them who are in Minneapolis, Charlotte, Portland, Chicago, New Orleans, all these different cities.
And so I think it's actually been good for the Republicans because it puts a face to that.
We haven't had any incidents.
To my knowledge, ICE has not arrested a single person.
They are doing more now in terms of screening.
They're looking through items as they're coming through TSA checkpoints.
But TSA officers have a serious job.
They're not law enforcement, but they have to learn how to screen baggage.
And that's not as simple as it may seem.
There's a lot of computed topography on the computers that they're trained to look for.
And so bringing ICE into that and having them get involved is not as simple as just, you know, throwing them in the line and say, you know, take out your computer or take off your shoes.
Yeah, people might not realize TSA agents undergo months of training and practice to get to their positions.
We're talking with Anna Giratelli.
She's a Homeland Security reporter for the Washington Examiner.
Let's have some callers weigh in as we talk about this DHS shutdown and the new Secretary of Homeland Security, Mark Wayne Mullen.
Patrick is calling in from Naples, Florida on the Democratic line.
Patrick, good morning.
Do you have a question for our guest?
unidentified
Yeah, thank you for taking my call.
I'm just wondering why we're spending billions of dollars to police or a secret police when we have people, they're taking away their Medicaid and they're taking away their food stamps.
And it seems like they're robbing from the people who really need the money to give it to people paying $50,000 bonuses to these ICE agents when the THA agents haven't been paid in over a month.
It comes down to the Trump administration's priorities.
And they have actually, even under the Biden administration, they were giving hefty bonuses to Border Patrol agents, the largest ever seen, to recruit because attrition was so high and people were not joining.
And so we've, again, seen the Trump administration prioritize immigration enforcement.
What you don't see the Trump administration prioritizing, at least publicly, is cybersecurity.
And that's a huge, huge concern right now.
And so, you know, the next administration or Trump could change his mind and focus on those things.
But I certainly hear what you're saying that they've continued to focus on immigration enforcement and putting money towards that, even in Congress, where you have, you know, the same agencies, TSA, CISA, even FEMA, maybe not getting the support that they could be getting.
And that obviously echoes a lot of what President Trump has said, both on the campaign trail and since he's return to office.
Do you think, especially after we saw the tensions play out in Minneapolis at the start of this year, and we've seen this debate and Democrats kind of say we're not going to agree to funding ICE or customs and border protection unless there are reforms, do you think that's resonated by and large with the American people?
Or do you think a majority still align with what the president had campaigned on and with what that caller was just outlining?
unidentified
You know, we've seen support for President Trump's deportations hit an all-time low since he took office.
That's not a good thing for him, obviously.
I think there is deportation fatigue.
I think the public supports it.
They support the law being enforced.
They certainly, even Democrats and Independents, to certain percentages, support people with criminal histories who are actually violent, who are actually a threat.
Those people being removed from the country, going through the immigration court system and being removed.
And ICE doesn't just arrest people and remove them.
They actually have to go before an immigration judge who will decide if they're going to be removed, and then ICE will carry it out.
And so I think that is fading.
But what's interesting is we see a lot of Republican concern over the Department of Homeland Security's spending by Secretary Christine Noam, now former secretary.
I did a story yesterday that came out that focused on what Christine Ohm was prioritizing as secretary.
She took down all of the pictures in her office at Customs and Border Protection's headquarters in D.C. of men and women who work for CBP, who work for CISA, who work for Secret Service.
And she replaced them with more than 10 pictures of herself.
We call them glamour shots because they were all pictures that put her in a great light, center of the picture, a lot of times out of focus in the background with her in the middle.
And it really communicates a different message of how she was spending those tax dollars at DHS.
There's certainly plenty of other contracts in question, including one over $200 million that was given to an organization that was created eight days earlier and has subcontracted to a company that was tied to her spokesperson's spouse.
A lot of questions.
So I think that's really taken over the deportation debate.
People are more focused about not the fraud in Minneapolis as much as the fraud or possible fraud, I should say, and spending within Secretary, former Secretary Noam's Homeland Security Department.
Yeah, Secretary Noam's tenure was notably controversial and she became the first member of President Trump's second cabinet to be pushed out.
You've also reported a lot on her successor, now Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen, up until a couple of days ago, Oklahoma Senator Republican.
You wrote this piece recently, how Mark Wayne Mullen would lead DHS differently than Christy Noam.
I want to just read the top line and then ask you about it.
Senator Mark Wayne Mullen promised to make a number of changes in how Department of Homeland Security agencies operate if confirmed as secretary, assuring lawmakers during his confirmation hearing on Wednesday that he would calm the controversies that surrounded the DHS under his predecessor.
He, of course, has now been confirmed.
He has taken over this agency in the midst of a very long shutdown.
What would you encourage people to look for in terms of his start to this job and whether or not there could be really noticeable differences compared to Secretary Noam's time in the position?
unidentified
Just in the 48 hours that Mullen has been sworn into office, I'm already hearing from officials across DHS that he is taking action.
He has allowed agencies, they weren't allowed to promote senior officials within those agencies under Christy Noam.
She and her cohort, Corey Lewandowski, wanted to approve every promotion, and that just delayed vacancies from being filled across the department and various agencies.
And so he's already started to allow them to promote people from within.
He also said he's going to take away, I believe, the curb on contracts over $100,000 needing Christy Noam's approval to get signed and to get those funds to get dispersed.
And so that's held up.
Over a thousand contracts NBC News has reported are delayed at this point.
And honestly, I think it actually might be higher than that because that's DHS is such a complex portfolio.
There are so many different components that need funding and need different projects to be funded.
Plumber Background Controversy00:15:21
unidentified
So those are two things that I'm really looking for, the contracts and the vacancies, if they're going to be filled.
What DHS officials shared with me this week as I spoke with them after Mullen took office was he doesn't have to do a lot.
He has to revert course back to letting senior officials across the department, across agencies, career officials, do the jobs they know how to do.
And I think a lot of times bureaucrats get a bad name, not necessarily, I should say, sometimes it's valid or warranted, right?
But we're talking about senior career law enforcement, especially when it comes to immigration enforcement, who know how to do the job.
They don't want to go out and round up people and use racial profiling as we saw Greg Bavino do under Christy Noam.
They want to carry out very targeted enforcement.
They want to go after specific people in a way that makes sense and is effective use of law enforcement resources.
Anna, I wanted to ask you, as he was talking about Secretary Mullen and listening to Mullen's testimony during his confirmation hearing, it stood out to me.
I cover the White House most days.
It stood out to me that he said, I don't want DHS to be in the headlines every day.
And as that caller was just alluding to, there are a multitude of issues going on each day that our government should try to tackle.
How much of Secretary Mullen's job do you think is going to be having DHS fly a bit under the radar after Secretary Christy Noam generated headline after headline?
unidentified
I think it's going to be a lot of his job.
And that's how the department should run, right?
Put out press statements, speak with the media as necessary.
You know, I reported yesterday too that under Secretary Noam, she limited press contact, or I should say public relations officers contact with the press more than even under the Biden administration.
And I can personally attest to that.
Getting answers from agencies, CBP, ICE, TSA, under Secretary Noam's tenure was incredibly difficult.
They just wouldn't respond to email after email.
And that's because they were requiring those press officers, these are tenured apolitical people, to go to DHS to get a statement approved, which may sit there for days, weeks, not get approved, and come back.
And really, it was the spokesperson for DHS, Tricia McLaughlin, who's not there anymore, who was approving every statement and issuing the statements herself.
So, you know, what we've seen since Mullen has taken over is the new DHS spokesperson is getting statements out, not as fast, but very simple statements.
They are not full of jargon, full of things really going after immigrants.
They're staying simple.
Yesterday, I asked for a third time, is Corey Lewandowski still working at DHS despite Noam having departed?
And they wrote back and said, Corey Lewandowski is no longer with the department.
So they are putting answers out.
And I think the key is putting out simple answers, yes, no, answer the questions, put out the information.
If you're going to claim to be the most transparent administration in history, be the most transparent administration in history, people just want to see their government run.
They don't want to necessarily see all the fighting and the adjectives constantly being thrown out, vilifying certain parties or people.
They just want to see the government doing what the law says it should do.
As Anna was talking about Corey Lewandowski, that name might ring a bell to folks.
He was one of Donald Trump's first campaign managers in his first campaign in 2016.
But Lewandowski has essentially been attached at the hip to Christy Noam throughout the last couple of years, shepherded her through the political process of becoming Homeland Security Secretary.
And then there was a lot of reporting about his role as a special government employee.
Here's an article from Politico saying, DHS confirms that Lewandowski left the department along with Noam, as you just talked about, Anna.
And it says, still unexplained, is why he accompanied the former secretary to Guyana.
They had been photographed and seen traveling the country and the world over the last year.
She was even asked recently in congressional hearings about alleged rumors that they were having a romantic affair on the side of this.
In your view, Anna, do you feel like that became a story that overshadowed this very key agency that President Trump talked about and kind of focused so much of his second term on?
unidentified
Yeah, I think ultimately from my sources have shared is that what took Christine Noam down in the end, and it took a while to get there between January and March, but was her claiming that she had a conversation with President Trump and he approved her spending over 200 million on advertisements.
And Trump said, no, I didn't.
And so that was possible perjury right there.
And so, but I think it was the affair.
And it was during the week before where she was testifying before the House Judiciary Committee and she was asked twice by Democrats if she was having an affair with Corey Lewandowski, which the Daily Mail reported in 2023 began in 2019.
So this is seven years potentially now.
And she didn't say no.
She said the question was outlandish.
She said that she is not, she said conservative women are made out to be stupid or sluts in her words.
And that's that, I think that surprised many people, including the White House, as to how she handled that question.
And ultimately, she's distracting from the issue at hand.
She's the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
And I think the administration found a way to shift her into a different role out of the spotlight and bring someone else in who, admittedly, his background is a plumber and an MMA fighter.
But I think this is the fight that Trump thinks Mark Wayne Mullen is ready to handle.
Certainly, DHS has had so many leaders in the past who don't actually have any experience within DHS before that.
It's a lot of turnaround to understand all those agencies and what they need and intricacies, especially of immigration law.
But that's where President Trump is putting his money right now.
And I think Christy Noam's fading into her new role of special envoy with Corey Lewandowski raises new questions.
You know, Corey doesn't have any history or background in the State Department.
And we're just trying to get answers to why the administration moved him there.
There were questions initially about why they moved Chrissy Noam there and now with Corey.
So certainly we're going to keep asking questions about that.
One of the main things is that it seems to me that so many people or so many of the guests come in and they say, they make the comment, the American people want.
They don't have a clue on what the American people want.
They haven't talked to anybody.
I haven't talked to them.
And they're making that up.
And then they also say the polls show, who are they polling?
I have no idea who they're polling.
They want to tell us that we're being misled by villainizing, making immigrants villains.
But this is the point I want to say.
Why is it that they're afraid to give the American people what the Democrats is asking for when it comes to DHS?
All we are asking for is we just want them to take off their mask, put on the cameras, and don't do home invasions in innocent people.
Why is that happening right now?
Anyway, I want to thank you guys so much because you guys always give us a voice.
First off, shed some light for people covering an agency like the Department of Homeland Security.
You, of course, have to develop sources and folks behind the scenes who are willing to talk with you.
What can you share for that caller's question about how you get information and what the reporting process is like for you covering an agency that's under such a bright spotlight?
unidentified
Yeah, I've been covering the Department of Homeland Security solely for eight years now.
I was in Washington for seven years.
I left DC because I was assaulted on the street outside a couple blocks from the U.S. Capitol.
And my assailant went to prison and I fled for safety.
And so, listen, I know what it's like to live in regular America.
I have family and friends as far left and as far right and in the middle as possible.
And those are the people I talk to.
I don't live in DC anymore.
I left in 2021 and haven't been back, but still get to cover the department.
A lot goes into that.
And I've been to the border and out with ICE and different agencies almost 70 times in those eight years.
And so those are men and women that I have met in Washington on many of my trips, who I maintain relationships with, who I know the birthdays of, I know when they have children born.
You know, this is old school journalism, I think, as it should be, where you develop relationships with people and they reach out to you when they see something, they say something.
And it's my job to look into those things.
It's also looking at press releases from the department and its agencies and covering news and policy developments in Congress and how DHS might be changing rules that are not laws, which is legal, all those types of things, and the relationship with Congress and the White House.
It's an incredibly complex portfolio, but I take it very seriously, and so do my peers at many, many news outlets.
You mentioned the assault that you faced here in the nation's capital.
You actually have a book coming out next week that we want to put up on screen.
It's called Under Assault, a Crime Reporter's True Story: Overcoming Sexual Trauma and Exposing Injustice.
Obviously, this is slightly separate from the DHS topic, but as you alluded to, it does kind of tie into your reporting mission.
Tell us a bit about the book and, in many ways, how it helps fuel your continued reporting of this top agency that is under such a microscope that has to do with crime, with reporting details being covered or uncovered.
Talk a bit about that.
unidentified
Yeah, you know, as someone who's covered DHS and works with federal law enforcement, I never expected to be a victim of a serious crime.
I was physically and sexually assaulted on the sidewalk in daylight in D.C. six years ago, next weekend, is the anniversary.
And police arrested him months later with DNA that they got from my clothing from the assault.
And they let him go.
The judge let him go the next day.
And in the year and a half it took before we went to trial, he was arrested five more times and released the next day, all five times.
And so in the midst of this process, he was homeless, lived very close to my apartment by Capitol Hill.
I left DC because I didn't feel that the Justice Department was protecting me, the police department, all those, the whole system wasn't protecting me as a victim.
And so eventually I found out that the crime stats by the DC police department, I should say, he ended up going to federal prison.
He was charged with sex abuse and sent to federal prison.
Did less than two and a half years for my attack, assaulting another individual, and the five other arrests.
And he has been released since.
But my assault was not in the DC crime stats because it was not deemed significant enough.
And I had no idea until I became a victim and I looked at the stats myself and I knew how to look for my crime that I discovered this.
And it wasn't just mine that's covered up, it's countless crimes.
We don't know.
What I was told in 2020 was that only first-degree charges of felonies were in the crime stats.
Mine was not a first-degree sex offense.
It was a different degree.
And so, how many other, how many other countless felonies of all different types of crimes are not being counted?
And so, I spoke out last August.
Valid Concerns About Conflicts00:04:29
unidentified
I wrote an op-ed and was seen by, you know, got an incredible reaction.
Millions of people saw it.
And I wrote the book that I wanted to read as I went through this past six years.
I felt as a woman who was sexually assaulted, 18 million women have survived assault since 1980, according to Rain.
And I said, there's a huge need out there.
We know this is an issue.
I've heard it from my girlfriends.
Unfortunately, it was not my first experience being assaulted, which made that more difficult to get over.
I wrote the book that I wanted to read when I was a victim to get through this.
What does it look like to go through a federal prosecution by the U.S. Attorney's Office?
How do you get over something like this?
What do you do when you find out the stats are skewed and not including you?
And there is some justice, but not full justice and not soon enough.
And so that's why I wrote this book.
And I'm hoping that it can help anyone who's gone through something similar or people who are just curious and want to know more about how the system actually works.
Before we wrap up, I want to go to at least one more caller.
We've, of course, been talking more broadly about DHS, the ongoing partial government shutdown, and the new secretary of the agency, Mark Wayne Mullen.
Alan is calling in from Miami, Florida on the Republican line.
Alan, what do you have to say to our guest?
unidentified
Okay, thanks for having me.
As far as Mullen is concerned, he's a very dangerous actor.
He is highly unqualified.
Even in Congress, he challenged somebody to a fist fight.
If the administration tells him to do something that is unlawful or unconstitutional, no problem.
He'll do whatever they say.
And the other thing is: how does a president's son start a drone company and then immediately gets a huge contract by the Department of War?
That sounds a little bit like a conflict of interest.
Anna, let's talk about that first point about Mark Wayne Mullen's temperament.
He's a very social media savvy political figure.
That was, I believe it was the Teamsters union head who he got into a shouting match with at a committee hearing at one point.
Mullen has a background as an MMA fighter.
We only have about a minute left, but what stands out in terms of what that caller pointed out?
unidentified
Yeah, I think your concerns, I mean, it's not for me to say they're valid, but I think you're bringing up really valid concerns.
So it's true what the caller said happened.
And I think those are valid concerns.
The Senate Republican overseeing the committee where Mullen was appearing for his confirmation hearing, Rand Paul, said Mullen wouldn't come out and say he apologizes for saying that Rand Paul deserved being assaulted by a stranger years ago.
And so I think there are those concerns about how he would handle certain situations.
Would he step in and say no to President Trump if he asked him to do something that could be illegal?
And we're going to continue to monitor it.
I can promise you the press is going to continue to monitor that closely And certainly moving on.
Welcome to Ceasefire, where we look to bridge the divide in American politics.
I'm Dasha Burns, Politico White House Bureau Chief, and joining me now on either side of the desk, two guests who have agreed to keep the conversation civil even when they disagree.
Remember that, gentlemen.
Florida Republican Congressman Carlos Jimenez and Texas Democratic Congressman Henry Queyar.
Look, I'm a Democrat, he's a Republican, but I still follow the words of President LBJ, where he said many years ago, I'm an American, I'm a Texan, I'm a Democrat in that order.
And I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican, you got to put country before any party.