Thomas Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste, details how his organization saved $2.3 trillion since 1984 following the GRACE Commission report. He highlights Vice President Vance's "war on fraud," noting $130 billion in improper payments for fiscal year 2025 and systemic failures like unshared Social Security death files. The discussion critiques California's high-speed rail, Pentagon spending audits, and the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation's $5.4 billion loss, arguing that eliminating such programs is essential to curb federal waste and restore fiscal integrity. [Automatically generated summary]
I've listened to his speech on the campaign hundreds of times, and I knew that when he said something about a chart, I thought, wow, the chart.
The chart's typically at the end of the speech.
And that registered right away with me.
And so then when he gestured over towards a chart, that's when the shots rang out.
And when he was gesturing, I was, you know, not as close as we are, but maybe four or five feet back.
And I had my lens on him.
I was trying to get something of he and the flag.
And then when he gestured to the rights and the shots rang out, I was actually taking pictures.
And then I just kept my finger on the shutter as soon as I heard the bullets.
Three-time Pulitzer Prize winning photographer Doug Mills, Sunday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN's QA.
You can listen to QA and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back to Washington Journal.
Joining us to talk about the Trump administration's war on fraud is Thomas Schatz.
He is president of Citizens Against Government Waste.
Tom, welcome to the program.
Thank you, Amy.
Happy to be on.
So just tell us about your organization and how you're funded.
The organization was created in 1984 following the report of the GRACE Commission under President Reagan.
The Grace Commission spent a year and a half, 161 corporate executives, worked with the members of the executive branch and came up with those recommendations, which would have saved $424.4 billion over three years.
We've managed to save about $2.3 trillion since then.
It was worth a lot more before the budget got so big.
But the organization is supported by anybody who wants to support us, basically individuals and others who care about wasteful spending.
Now, the president has tasked Vice President Vance with waging a war on fraud.
What do you make of that assignment?
I think anything that can be done to reduce the amount of waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement is great.
And there are a lot of recommendations in there that groups like Citizens Against Government Waste, the Government Accountability Office, the offices of inspectors general have been talking about for years, which is to overall make sure that money is not being sent to people who shouldn't get it.
It's simple.
In the private sector, they have internal controls that prevent that kind of spending from occurring.
If they didn't, they'd probably go out of business.
But you really can't, if you're a business, you're not going to pay someone who didn't do the work that you hired them for.
And it's just a simple concept.
It's a management question, keeping track of the money, making sure that it's being spent as intended.
And then there are lists of companies on what's called the do-not-pay list.
They shouldn't get money from any agency.
There's the Social Security death file, which until recently, Senator Kennedy had the bill to make this idea permanent.
Social Security was not sharing people who were deceased with the Department of the Treasury to make sure they weren't getting money.
I think we've been around, oh, 250 years, and this year is the first time it's been legislation to do that.
And Tom, I guess we should delineate the difference between fraud and waste.
I mean, fraud is actually criminal activity that would be prosecuted.
Waste is, I guess, a bit more subjective.
Yes.
Well, yes, fraud has a legal definition.
Someone who intentionally takes money against the law.
Waste, in our view, is money that is being spent that is not going to what either the agency or Congress intended within the confines of a statute or a regulation.
And mismanagement is Not tracking how the money is being spent and making sure before it goes out that the people or the organizations who are getting the money are following through and completing whatever the task might be.
Well, let's take a look.
I'm going to play for you a portion of Vice President Vance in the Oval Office.
This is during the signing by President Trump of this anti-fraud task force.
Here he is, and then I'll get your response.
When we first started talking about this problem, the President made it very clear he wanted us to take the fraud problem seriously because nobody had until he was president.
We started to figure out one big hole that existed is that the agencies of the government weren't actually talking to each other.
So Treasury would have evidence of financial fraud, but wasn't talking to the Department of Justice about it.
Health and Human Services had evidence of Medicaid fraud, but wasn't talking to the Department of Treasury about it.
So what this executive order does is force the entire apparatus of the federal government to do two things.
Stop the fraud on the American taxpayer and make sure that the benefits that ought by right go to American citizens go to American citizens and not to fraudsters.
And Tom, your reaction to that as far as do you think that that's the correct approach and do you think it's going to work?
Well, it is a good approach.
It's essential that the agencies talk to each other and provide information about people who are defrauding them to other agencies.
It's a pretty big government.
And again, inside a company, that is likely to occur.
Certainly a small business would be able to figure out who's getting money and who's defrauding them.
One of the problems is the incompatible accounting and computer systems that agencies have, that they will not upgrade, that they won't make them work together.
There are a lot of examples of that.
Health records from the VA and the Department of Defense, they've been trying to combine that for years and trying to make it simple.
If you are in the Army or the Navy and then you become a veteran, your record should go like that to the Department of Veterans Affairs, but that doesn't happen.
So interoperability is a big deal.
And without information, which is underpinning everything, it is impossible to determine if somebody has or is likely to defraud a federal agency.
So this is a good idea.
It's a question of getting the systems in place to be able to literally look at a list that has everybody in one place.
But that's never been done.
And agencies tend to be a little protective of their systems.
And if you'd like to talk to Tom Schatz, he is the president of Citizens Against Government Waste.
You can start calling in now.
Democrats are on 2028-8000.
Republicans 202-748-8001.
And Independents 202-748-8002.
Well, Tom, one of Vice President Vance's first tasks was to put a pause on federal Medicaid reimbursements to Minnesota.
What do you think of that as the first move?
And do you think it'll be effective?
Well, that has been reported that there's been extensive fraud in Medicaid in Minnesota.
It's likely in other states as well.
I think they have probably more evidence there than anywhere else.
And of course, doing this should be based on the evidence, not on anything related to politics or not liking somebody.
I'm not saying that's the case here.
I'm just saying generally the fact should be that there has been sufficient fraud in Medicaid in Minnesota that they have to stop everything and reassess how the money is being sent and how it's being spent.
And really that should be done across a number of programs and agencies.
Improper payments, which the Government Accountability Office reports on every year, was about $130 billion in fiscal year 2025.
And the GAO said that since 2003, that total is $2.8 trillion.
Now, again, not all improper payments are payments that are going to people who are ineligible.
Some of them are overpayments, but most of them are payments that should not have been sent in the first place.
And NGAO said there's between $250 and $500 billion in fraud.
Again, back to fraud.
And so this is, there's a lot of good information about what's gone wrong.
It's a question of trying to get it right.
And that's, I think, with the task force and other efforts being made.
Senator Joni Ernst at a hearing last week introduced legislation to require cost transparency.
So there's a lot going on.
Well, staying with Minnesota after Vice President Vance was tasked to take on fraud.
Here is Governor Tim Walz.
He talked about his administration's efforts to against fraud.
This is from the end of February.
I've asked again, I've asked the president, we're tackling this.
We want to partner with you.
We need you to quit firing U.S. attorneys who are good at fraud.
We need you to quit firing FBI agents because they carried out their job.
We need you to partner with us because I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
And I will continue to say this.
You can trust me on this.
The person who's angriest about this fraud is me.
There is certainly no political upside to having fraud in your state.
And it undermines the very program that I have spent a lifetime advocating for and trying to implement.
And we have got criminals.
It seems like the Republicans, the only people they're not concerned about in this are the actual criminals, standing with the criminals.
This president has pardoned people who took part in Medicaid fraud, who were responsible for paying back almost $300 million.
And because he pardoned them, that went away.
Tom, what do you think of that?
That's a hard argument to make because there is a lot of information about the governor and his team made aware of the fraud many years ago.
It was a hearing in 2018, and one of the Minnesota representatives, U.S. representatives, brought it up.
That's eight years ago, and it didn't really become a big deal until about maybe six or eight months ago.
So it has been ongoing, and not enough was being done.
And that's one of the reasons that the federal government had to step in.
And what are the typical ways that the money is accountable when it goes to the states from the federal government?
What are the things that are already in place and what broke down in the case of Minnesota?
Well, a lot of states don't have sufficient anti-fraud systems in place.
Again, we're back to computer systems.
Funny, we talk about artificial intelligence, but some of the programs, the software systems and the hardware systems and federal and state agencies, some go back to the 60s and you can't find anybody that knows COBOL anymore.
Probably people listening have no idea what that is for the most part, unless you're of a certain age.
But you can't find people to program the systems.
So there's a lack of upgrade.
There's a lack of interoperability, as I've said before.
If the federal and state systems were operating the same way with the same information, somebody gets money from a grant and the state knows who it is, they can then see is that person getting it?
Are they doing what they're supposed to do?
Is it being wasted or stolen?
They just don't have enough of those systems in place.
Doesn't mean that it's an excuse, but they could do a lot more to get better control.
All right, let's talk to internal controls, it's a big deal.
Let's talk to callers.
Dwight is up first in California, Independent.
Go ahead, Dwight.
Hey, good morning, Nimi.
Good morning, Thomas.
Mimi, I think you're coming up on four years now, joining us in the morning.
Yep, I completed four years.
Thank you, Dwight, for remembering that.
Congratulations.
Thomas, I'm here in California.
We have this thing that we're called a high-speed railway that the government has been spending billions of dollars on, and I don't know how many years.
And we don't even have track laid yet.
Back during COVID, California had almost a trillion-dollar surplus.
Now we're in a deficit.
And down in Los Angeles, they were auditing the homeless money that went during COVID, and they couldn't find $500 million.
Now, you can call it waste fraud or abuse, but in my opinion, Tom, that's all criminal.
How can you lose $500 million and not be accountable for it?
So I'm not a Trump fan at all, but shaking up this fraud in the government and all this stuff, somebody needs to take a look at that.
Can you comment on that, Tom, and thank you?
Oh, great.
Great points.
I'm going to start with high-speed rail.
We wrote with the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Foundation and Reason Foundation report on the high-speed rail system, and I think it was 2009.
And at that time, off of memory, maybe it was supposed to cost $12 or $20 billion, and it was going to be done by 2020.
Anyway, as you are aware, nothing's been done.
And the federal government decided to cut off the $4 billion that was due to the high-speed rail system in the past year.
And it's simply never going to work.
From the beginning, I'm going to make it quick.
California is honestly just too big.
If you think of high-speed rail in Europe, it's a very compacted area geographically.
So it just isn't going to be what it's supposed to do.
The Northeast corridor, sure, because it's not that far from where I am in D.C. to Boston.
You can get a lot of people.
You can get things done.
And then on the homeless spending, you made a good point, right?
It's not criminal to waste money in the government unless the person who is handing out the money steals it.
So if you follow what I said, you can hand out money as a government employee.
I'm not disparaging now, but generally, you can hand out money.
It can go to waste, and there isn't a consequence.
And that's the same with Congress, right?
You can waste money.
You can have these pork barrel earmarks.
You can have all kinds of things.
But unless the voters say, hey, you've wasted too much money, we're going to get rid of you, it's not criminal.
Let's talk to Ronald in Largo, Florida.
Republican, you're on with Tom Schatz.
Good morning.
I would like Ms. Schatz to discuss maybe for 30 seconds or a minute the federal false claims statute.
And I'd like to make a suggestion.
In every government office, on every elevator, in every break room, at every time clock, promulgate the false claims statute and then change the name from false claims statute to whistle blower awards statute and watch the fraud that will be exposed.
Whistleblower Awards Statute00:10:19
Tom, explain the false claims statute.
Right, false claims act is called the Keith Ham Act.
And what the False Claims Act does is if you, as an individual or government employee, bring an example of fraud, criminal activity to the federal government, you get a percentage of the amount of money that's recovered.
I don't recall off the top of my head how much it is, maybe 10% or so, or maybe a little more.
But that we, by the way, we've suggested, Citizens Against Government Waste has suggested over the years that there should be some kind of bonus system for federal employees who identify and expose and eliminate fraud just internally.
It has nothing to do with the False Claims Act, just as part of their job.
And the agency gets to keep the savings.
So that's also an incentive.
The KTAM is a much more limited statute.
It requires bringing a lawsuit.
It requires going to court.
So it takes a lot longer.
There are much bigger cases.
But simply, hey, you know, there's too many paperclips in this agency.
Here's, you know, $150 bonus.
That's to us a better way to do that.
We got a text for you from Melody in Kansas who says, it seems Republicans rarely look for fraud and waste in the Pentagon.
Well, the Grace Commission, where I mentioned the 2,478 recommendations and $424.4 billion in savings, about a quarter of those savings came from the Pentagon.
And really the issue with the Pentagon is that every penny that is wasted is a penny that's not going to the warfighters and not helping to protect the national security of the United States.
So we have been as an organization pointing out waste in Pentagon spending for many, many years, especially earmarks.
We've done a lot of writing about the F-35.
And so we've been the second engine for the F-35 as well.
So there's a lot out there on the Pentagon.
We do wish that they would do a better job of eliminating the waste, making it more efficient, because that would help everyone.
And of course, the Pentagon is the only agency that has not completed a clean federal audit since every agency, every other agency has done so.
Only the Marines have done that inside of the Pentagon.
And why is that?
I'm not even sure where the money is.
Why is it that they're not able to have a clean audit?
Like, is there a reason?
I think it's just so big, and it's not the priority.
That's probably the simplest explanation.
Congress has tried to hold their feet to the fire, but there's not a lot they can do.
They're not going to cut off money in the Pentagon if they don't have a clean audit.
Cecilia, Birmingham, Alabama, line for Democrats, you're on the air.
Yes, I wanted to mention there is a lot of fraud and abuse, but still, this president has got rid of a lot of checks and balances by firing different departments.
So how are you going to find out more fraud and abuse if you keep firing the federal employees in different agencies?
See, you have to maintain the system of some kind of checks and balances.
And that's being lost in this current administration here.
And, you know, and one more thing, you don't punish people that need certain programs.
They need like Medicaid, Medicare, these programs that are helping the poor.
Because if there is fraud and abuse, let's weed that out.
But don't punish, on the other hand, don't punish the population from certain vital programs that people need.
That's all I want to mention.
All right, Cecilia.
And regarding the firing of the inspector generals, Tom.
Well, every president comes in and does at least a number of those.
And while they are helpful, they don't have the enforcement problem.
Again, not disparaging their recommendations, but those recommendations must be acted upon by Congress.
And a lot of what is being uncovered has been presented to Congress.
And if you look at the GAO reports and the IG reports, they, in many cases, say the same thing year after year.
A lot of things we've mentioned, internal controls, tracking the money, the cost transparency, like Senator Ernst is doing.
You know, those things must be done.
And as I said, it requires Congress.
I mentioned the bill by Senator Kennedy that the Social Security Administration has to share the death file with Treasury.
Again, why wasn't that just done?
Linwood, College Park, Maryland, Independent Line, you're on with Tom Schatz.
Good morning, Mr. Schatz.
I'm calling in particular in regards to an independent executive federal agency out of Washington, D.C., in the law enforcement capacity.
It's called Court Services and Offender Supervision Agency.
And there, I was a supervisor there, and it was riddled with fraud.
Matter of fact, I had an employee that fraudulently used the government credit card over 64 times.
I proposed her termination, and rather than them terminate her, they terminated me.
Likewise, I had a peer, high-profile murder cases, and they give the person employee of the year and bonuses.
And what you said is exactly correct.
You can provide bonuses, et cetera, et cetera.
But that was basically bribe and hush money.
And I was a whistleblower.
I was retaliated against, and et cetera.
And I exhausted my rights.
However, I think there should be an investigation into that agency.
It's under the White House, so it's in Mr. Trump's front yard.
As a matter of fact, it's on his porch.
And it is, I can't speak for the entire federal government, but I can say that I've seen a great deal of fraud and abuse and waste coming from that particular agency.
What do you think, Tom?
Yeah, thank you for the information.
I was unaware of that agency's activities, and I'm sorry that this all happened to you.
And it's not atypical for people who report fraud to be retaliated against, because if you report fraud and the agency gets less money, that means fewer employees.
I know that sounds weird, but that is kind of the thinking in many of the agencies.
Well, we need to have this money to do our job.
And of course, the budget itself is based on what agency spent in the prior year, not how well they're doing.
It's called the baseline budgeting.
So if you have an amount of money in one year, that's the baseline for the next year.
You don't have to prove they did a great job with it.
You just say, here's what we spent, give us the same reward.
Again, that's a systemic problem throughout the government.
And there are a number of members of Congress who are trying to help the whistleblowers and avoid these kinds of things that have happened to the caller.
We got this from Sue in New Jersey on text.
For years, we've been told by those in office that fraud makes up a small amount of where taxpayers' money goes to.
President Trump tells us differently.
He says there's massive fraud involving taxpayer money.
Which version is true?
Well, I'll just look at what the government accountability office said, $250 to $500 billion, and some reports say it could be a trillion.
And then they use the word fraud, although I think they probably meant it a little more broadly.
So in any organization, you can easily find 10% to 15% of kind of fat or waste or whatever you want to call it, a way to make the whole thing more efficient.
And so when you say a trillion in wasteful spending or inefficiency or mismanagement, it's not an unreasonable number.
Paul is calling from England, Republican.
Hi, Paul.
Hi, Mary.
I'll speak to you again.
Mr. Shatz, the question I wanted to ask you is, how do you combat fraud in government spending, whatever?
You're asking how to combat fraud?
So, we are just one organization of really maybe two handfuls.
There are not a lot of groups like Citizens Against Government Waste that are focused on wasteful spending.
Pretty much everybody else here in Washington is focused on getting money from the government.
So, we do a lot of work in coalitions.
We have sent letters to Congress with up to 50 or 60 organizations on various issues.
We testify.
I've testified.
My colleague, Vice President, has testified as well.
Sometimes we go out to the states, which our health and science policy director did last week in Tennessee.
So, we are as much as we can do.
We're only 10 people.
It's not a big organization.
And so, we really try to work hard with other groups to make sure that the executive branch and Congress hears what we're saying.
And then, we rate the votes of members of Congress through a lobbying arm called the Council for Citizens Against Government Waste.
So, members of Congress are aware of what we think, and we are having somewhat of an impact.
But it's a we're doing, you know, as I said, it's a matter of resources and fighting against much, much more organized and literally organizations with a lot more money to push through what they want.
Brenda Democrat, Two Harbors, Minnesota.
Good morning, Brenda.
Good morning.
I'm going to find out what a citizen does at the county level when the county caseworkers have been alerted, notified, given proof of fraud that was charged to my insurance, and they say, Oh, well, we'll investigate.
We'll put together a graph and see if your timing is right and if, you know, what.
And then they just say, Well, we're not going to investigate that.
We don't care.
County Level Investigations00:03:15
What do you care?
Because it's not your money, it's the insurance.
So, what do you care?
And I'm like, It's fraud.
But at the county level, they won't do anything.
So, I don't know what to do.
I've been fighting it for over two years, and I don't know where to go next.
Have you gone to a county council meeting and brought this up, maybe to the council itself?
Well, she's not there anymore, Tom.
But that would be a suggestion of mine.
I always suggest that people go and talk to the local officials and make their case.
There are a lot of open meetings, a lot of opportunities.
Write to your member of Congress.
They have caseworkers in congressional offices who may also be willing to help, especially if you say that somebody locally is not doing what they're doing, supposed to do to help you.
Mike, Mechanicville, New York, Independent Line.
Good morning.
Hi, Tom.
I've seen you on here on and off for many, many years.
We in New York are worried about two big projects we know are already wasteful.
That Second Avenue subway extension, which has been going on for probably 30 years, and the high-speed rail going up the west side of the Hudson, which they're talking about, but they're moving so slowly.
I know they've been having trouble buying people out or whatever, but the west side Hudson just seems to be taking forever.
I mean, the one that's a high-speed rail, like between New York City and Albany.
I was wondering if you could comment on that.
And the Second Avenue subway extension, which has taken apparently billions and billions at a half a mile, half a mile apiece to move it.
Yeah.
Well, I am from New York.
I'm from Long Island originally, so I know this pretty well.
I came to DC in 1974 to go to law school.
So, yes, that has been going on as long as I can remember.
Second Avenue subway.
It's, I think, geographically difficult.
It's slow.
Every time you wait, it gets more expensive.
High-speed rail, I had mentioned earlier, the Boondango in California.
Most high-speed rail systems don't work, especially when you're running it locally.
And what are you going to save between New York City and the Bronx or New York City and Albany?
10 minutes, maybe.
And then you have to have those tracks that can hold the high-speed rail.
So I said the Northeast Corridor, Amtrak, that makes sense.
But beyond that, it's very hard to find any good reason or any successful high-speed rail in the United States.
Sandra, New Haven, Indiana, Republican, you're on with Tom Schatz.
Good morning.
I seem to remember years ago when the Constitution was written, they said that they've given us this constitutional republic if we can keep it, but it has to be done by a moral people.
If you're not a moral person, then you're not going to be able to hold this.
And I think that's part of what's happening.
If you look around at all the looting in the ceiling and people don't care, and they just, I saw a video the other day, they put up a FedEx truck that stopped to make a stop.
And 25 people climbed in the back and just took everything, you know.
Strengthening National Morality00:03:16
So what we need to do is do something to strengthen the morality of our country.
But what I really called about was things like this.
Here's a story today by Lowell Caulfield.
And it says, broad report: 89 hospice companies are located in one Los Angeles office building.
Now, you know, how can you just look at something like that and know that that's not broad?
And that's why we need this birthright citizenship change.
For example, here's another one by Becky Noble.
Give us your tired, you're poor, your freebies.
Nearly half of U.S. immigrant households are on welfare because their children become citizens.
And then the entire household can be funded by welfare.
And this is the main problem.
Here is a U.S. citizen is taking the helm of Mexico's fiercest cartel, exposing the ugly truth on birthright citizenship.
All right, let's get a response, Sandra.
Go ahead, Tom.
Well, those are the kinds of things that we hope that the fraud task force will address because some of them are related to a specific program.
Some of them are related to more systemic issues in terms of how money is being spent.
So you've just pointed out a wide variety of issues that they should take a look at.
Well, your organization, Tom, puts out a prime cuts list.
And I want to put on the screen for our viewers Prime Cuts 2025 and ask you about a couple in particular.
One is to eliminate the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation.
Can you tell us what that is?
We actually have on our website an entire page devoted to CMMI.
CMMI was created in the Affordable Care Act.
It gets $10 billion every decade.
And the idea is to create models, payment models for Medicare, Medicaid, children's health insurance program.
The intent is to lower costs and improve care, and they have done none of that.
They were supposed to save $2.8 billion between 2011 and 2020.
They lost $5.4 billion, another $1.3 billion by 2030.
So we're hoping that Congress takes a good look at this.
We've had a large campaign about CMMI.
To us, there really couldn't be a much better example of something that isn't working.
They're also getting involved with price controls through what they call most favorite nations.
So to say that, oh, maybe they'll do better in the future simply doesn't cut it.
So we've been trying to do something with this while working with members of Congress to get some legislation introduced.
And another recommendation is to eliminate earmarks for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program.
So the F-35 is a long story, but it's not a good story.
The F-35, it's being used, but it's not successful in any way.
They're kind of moving on to the next generation of fighters at this point.
But it was one of the most expensive weapons programs in history, and they have had a lot of problems with grounding them, with not being able to use them.
So it's a good chapter to read in Climb Cuts to get all the details.
Interagency Cooperation Systems00:03:34
And this is Lincoln, Clarksburg, Maryland, Democrat.
Good morning.
You got to mute your TV, Lincoln.
We can hear it in the background.
Sorry.
Here we go.
Say that the Save America Act is just another distraction.
This man will throw the whole world under the bus to save himself.
I am so embarrassed.
So, Lincoln, we've got Thomas Schatz with us.
Do you have something about waste or fraud in the government?
Yeah.
Donald Trump is a fraud and his whole family.
I feel that he says this, and he does the total opposite.
I think that this is not acceptable in this country.
And how can you say that anyone is above the law, that no one is above the law?
All right.
Let's get Alan from Ohio and Independent Line.
Go ahead, Alan.
Yes, I want to talk to you about the fraud.
If you're in an office and you have all this money out there and you're wondering what I can do with it all, you start thinking about how I give this guy a pay raise or whatever.
So, and that's a part of fraud.
But I think if you're in charge and you tell your other offices to check to find out if you can find any fraud, and if you do find any fraud, just write me a memo.
I think all of it gets lost in the paperwork.
All right.
Any comment there, Tom?
Well, I think any reporting of fraud is helpful.
I think it's a matter of whether the agencies are taking it seriously.
Again, I think the fraud task force that President Trump would take Vice President Vance in charge of is trying to do more to have interagency cooperation, better interoperability of their computer and the county system so they know who's not eligible to receive money.
Many times you see someone who goes to the SBA and doesn't get a loan, goes to the Department of Agriculture, who unfortunately has the same kind of loan, and they get the loan.
So that shouldn't happen.
All right, one more call for you, Tom.
Sue, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Republican.
Go ahead, Sue.
So, yes, I seem to recall that the president at one point was looking into the Fed and to the Treasury to see how much gold we actually had left.
And the Fed chair was just done in a news report stating that he was proud of the fact that the Fed was an independent organization controlling all the central banks.
Well, some people would feel otherwise, myself included, because you have a bunch of families, Rockefellers, Rothschilds, all maintaining super wealth from control of our banking and treasury systems.
What about that fraud?
That's a huge fraud in 1940 against the American people.
Let's change that.
Last comment, Tom?
Not something we've looked into, but maybe it should.
But as I said, there are a lot of issues out there that need to be addressed.
That's Thomas Schatz.
Banking System Wealth Control00:00:30
Is the president of Citizens Against Government Waste?
You can visit their website at CAGW.org.
Tom, thanks as always for joining us today.
Thank you, Mimi.
Welcome back to Washington Journal.
Joining us now is Stephen Hawkins.
He is the Global Director of Research at the organization More in Common, and he's here to talk about a really interesting study into President Trump's GOP coalition and the reaction to the war in Iran.
Good morning, Stephen.
Good morning, Taylor.
Thanks for being here.
So first off, for people not familiar with More In Common, describe your