The Supreme Court struck down Trump’s IEPA tariffs, leaving refunds unresolved despite Democratic demands like Newsom’s $8.679B Illinois claim and Pritzker’s $1,000/household estimates. Trump imposed new 15% tariffs under Section 232/301 while callers debated—Republicans backed refunds for veterans and Americans, Democrats dismissed them as illegal, Independents urged debt or education funding. Trade Rep Greer cited court uncertainty; Turley warned Congress may retroactively block refunds. The episode ends with a public debate: who deserves the $140B in tariff revenue amid economic fallout and a $38T national debt? [Automatically generated summary]
Another place to learn about your rights, taxpayer-rights.org.
That is the Center for Taxpayer Rights.
Dina Olson is the executive director, and we do always appreciate you stopping by.
Thank you.
That's going to do it for our program today.
We'll, of course, be back here tomorrow morning, though.
It is 7 a.m. Eastern.
It's 4 a.m. Pacific.
In the meantime, we hope you have a great Monday.
On this Monday morning, a live picture here at the White House, where President Trump is hosting families of victims of foreign criminal organizations.
The president is expected this morning to sign a proclamation designating February 22nd as Angel Family Day.
This is live coverage here on C-SPAN.
Once again, live picture from the East Room of the White House this morning, where President Trump will be hosting families of victims of foreign criminal organizations.
And the President will sign a proclamation this morning designating February 22nd as Angel Family Day.
President expected any moment now.
Live coverage here on C-SPAN.
And a very good Monday to you.
You can go ahead and start calling in now as we show you the headline from USA Today this morning.
Supreme Court Ruling Impact00:15:55
Time for a refund, they asked the movement to give Americans tariff money.
Democrats have demanded refunds after the Supreme Court ruled against President Donald Trump's sweeping tariffs.
They write it's the latest hypothetical plan to redistribute tariff income back to Americans.
It was yesterday on CNN's State of the Union that the Treasury Secretary Scott Besant was asked about potential refunds.
This is what he had to say.
I do want to start with the big question.
Will you refund the roughly $134 billion in revenue taken by these emergency tariffs?
Well, Dana, that's not the big question.
Let's just level set here.
What the Supreme Court did was a very narrow reading of the president's authority under the IEPA tariffs.
We have other tariff authorities which have been functioning, Section 232 tariffs, Section 301 tariffs.
And Dana, when you say it's a big question, that's bad framing because the Supreme Court didn't even address that.
The Supreme Court remanded it down to a lower court.
And, you know, we will follow what they say, but that could be weeks or months when we hear them.
So the Supreme Court did not address refunds.
Sure, they didn't address refunds.
That is clearly going to be up to you, which is why.
No, no, no, no, Dana.
It is not up to me.
It is up to you.
It is not up to the administration.
It is up to the lower court.
Let's just be clear on that.
Okay.
Well, the Justice Department told a federal appeals court in this very case last year: if tariffs imposed on plaintiffs during these appeals are ultimately held unlawful, then the government will issue refunds to plaintiffs.
Again, I'm not going to put it ahead of the court.
We will follow the court's direction, but as I said, that could be weeks or months away.
That decision was not rendered on Friday.
The Treasury Secretary there on CNN State of the Union yesterday.
Meanwhile, President Trump moving ahead with tariffs under new authorities.
This is the headline from today's Wall Street Journal.
Trump to boost global tariff to 15%, new tariff rate up from the 10% level that he announced after his high court setback on Friday when the Supreme Court ruled as unlawful the tariffs implemented under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, or IEPA, as you've heard of it.
That debate continues, and we ask you this morning your thoughts on whether the administration should issue refunds for tariff costs.
And if so, who should get them?
Give us your thoughts on phone lines split this way.
Republicans, 202-748-8001.
Democrats, 202-748-8000.
Independents, 202-748-8002.
We mentioned Democratic leaders calling for checks to individual Americans.
This was California Governor Gavin Newsom on CNN yesterday.
This is what he had to say.
The whole thing is a farce.
I talk about petulance.
It was 10% two days ago, maybe 20% tomorrow.
I mean, this is madness.
He's failing.
He's a punch-drunk boxer.
He's just, you know, he's just trying to hit anything, a shadow.
And he's a shadow of himself.
He's lost a step or two.
Under the IEEPA, we were the first state to sue.
I was out there in the Central Valley talking about how this is going to impact ranchers and small businesses and farmers, the ag community, my state larger than any other state in the country.
And Justice Roberts, by the way, basically our arguments were literally laid out in detail in his response.
So it was always an illegal act.
He needs to return that money.
He needs to refund that money with interest.
He could do that in a nanosecond.
They could do that electronically.
They could do it electronically.
They have the tariff codes.
They have the ability.
They do refunds all the time.
They have the ability to do that.
The problem is for families, it's been about $1,701 a year.
That's a different requirement that I think he has to pay the American people back.
I saw Besant out there almost gleeful.
He was gleeful that no, we won't be doing it.
This is dumb and dumber, Trump and Bessett.
They've wrecked this economy.
1.4% GDP growth in the last quarter.
Inflation back up to 3%.
The worst jobs market we've seen since 2013.
2.2% GDP for the entire year.
He inherited 2.8%.
It's a wrecking ball presidencies, wrecking this economy.
Gavin Newsom on CNN yesterday, in terms of the numbers here of what it cost average Americans, you heard Gavin Newsom there say $1,701.
That number coming from a Joint Economic Committee Democratic report that came out that notes that the average American family has paid just over $1,700 in tariff costs as of January.
Another estimate by the nonpartisan tax foundation said that in February, tariff costs each household in America an average of $1,000.
So a lot of discussion here about whether tariffs should be refunded, how much it should be.
And that's what we're asking you this morning on the Washington Journal.
What do you think?
And we have phone lines for Republicans, Democrats, and Independents as usual.
Samuel's in California up first this morning, Republican.
Samuel, what do you think?
I think that the president should give a tariff refund to Americans a rebate check.
And he should also give tariff money for disabled veterans during the Vietnam era from 1964 to 75 that fought against communist aggression for this beautiful country.
They should get money too.
They're disabled veterans.
He gave veterans a tariff check for active veterans.
But these are disabled veterans that don't get too much money every month.
They should get a check too.
And one other thing, I love this treasure.
He's doing great job.
He has done so much in everything he campaigned on and to the presidency he did.
And no Democrat can do what he can do.
Thank you very much and have a good day.
That's Samuel in California.
Jason's in Alabama.
Democrat, good morning.
Hey, good morning.
The stupidity of American citizens is unfathomable, especially MAGA supporters, right?
Donald Trump has been saying for the past over a year that American citizens don't take tariffs.
So why would he give you a refund for the tariffs?
You didn't pay him, right?
But now you want to check.
It amazes me.
There's so many rural people that depend on Social Security and rural hospitals that need that money from the federal government voted for Trump even though their hospitals are closed and their health care is declined.
Farmers voted for him even though his tariffs hurt them the first time and now they're losing their farms.
People like the previous gentleman, veterans voted for him, even though he's going through the VA system altering the way veterans can apply for their disability benefit.
So Jason, to the question, what do you think should happen with the money collected under those tariffs that the Supreme Court last Friday ruled were illegal?
I think Trump should take that money and put it in his bank account just like he put over like $3 billion or his net worth is going to $3 billion.
He should keep doing what he's been doing.
Trump is a scumbag and he's proving that.
So it's crazy to have a conversation when this man has shown he don't care about nobody.
And if you think you're going to get that, if you think you're going to get that tariff check, you're going to get that the same day Donald Trump's hairline comes back and you get that doze shit.
Got your point.
That's Jason this morning.
It's a confusing process and Justice Brett Kavanaugh used the word mess in his dissent.
You might remember on Friday, President Trump reading from Brett Kavanaugh's dissenting opinion from the Supreme Court decision.
This is what Brett Kavanaugh said about the idea of returning tariff money that had been collected.
He writes, the interim effects of the court's decision could be substantial.
The United States may be required to refund billions of dollars to importers who paid the IEPA tariffs, even though some importers may have already passed on the cost to consumers and others.
As was acknowledged, that the oral argument, the refund process is likely to be a mess, and it's still being sorted out.
As Scott Besson said, a lot of this is in the hands of the lower courts.
But as this is a question right now in the wake of that decision, we want to know what you think.
Should the Trump administration issue refunds for tariffs?
And if so, who should get them?
Republicans, 202-748-8001.
Democrats, 202-748-8000 is the number to call.
And Independents, it's 202-748-8002 having this conversation on a Monday morning.
The Congress returns today, the House at noon, the Senate at 3.
And of course, we are in State of the Union week on a snowy day on Capitol Hill.
We are one day away from the President's State of the Union address tomorrow night, and we hope you watch it with us on the C-SPAN networks.
Back to your phone calls.
This is Damon in Columbus, Ohio Independent.
Good morning.
Hey, good morning.
Thanks for having me on the call.
And this is my first time calling, so I want to stick to the subject matter, but I'm excited to share.
So good morning, everyone.
Just as a novice politician or a novice in paying the citizens, I focus on money.
I focus on my own business.
Of a small business owner.
I don't understand how we could even bring a refund of tariffs for countries that have been selling into America for years and years.
I don't see how there could be any confusion as to why, even though we are, you know, we're bending the rules quite a bit and how we run the country.
We got to look at it.
This is a superpower.
You know, we don't make mistakes when we charge people to do business with this.
It doesn't make sense to me how people can approach this as we need to refund all these countries that we've been doing business with for several years because of the fact that we increased the amount of money that we're charging to do business with America.
I don't see how that overall, for any of us, for any of our families, for any of our kids, for any of us, how that makes sense.
So, David, the question is: if these tariffs are illegal, as the Supreme Court ruled on Friday, who should get a refund?
It's not necessarily other countries.
Is it businesses that paid the import tax?
Is it consumers who may have had that cost of that import tax passed on to them?
What happens to this money now?
Or does the federal government keep that money, a federal government that's currently in the realm of $38 trillion in national debt or so?
I think we should look at the overall big picture because, you know, half of us don't know what to do with the money we bring into our households in terms of what to do.
Are we buying cigarettes or are we buying beer?
Are we buying eggs?
You know what I mean?
So I think overall we need to get that together before we start talking about trillions of dollars that we're bringing into the country in a way that we're not used to.
I mean, I just don't see how that could be looked at as bad.
I mean, even though there are a lot of things that I disagree with, lots of things I don't understand, I just don't see how bringing more money into the country could be a discussion point when we're bringing the money into the country from people who are already making money on us.
Gotcha.
I don't really see how we can.
Got your point, Damon.
And we're not talking trillions of dollars at this point.
The estimate's somewhere between $100 and $200 billion in tariff revenue under these tariffs that were ruled illegal on Friday.
Just like Governor Gavin Newsom in California, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker telling President Trump to cut the check.
That's what his ex-post read from over the weekend.
He also issued an invoice to the Trump administration from the families of Illinois.
He writes that on behalf of the people of Illinois, I demand a refund of $1,700 for every family in Illinois.
There are 5,105,448 households in my state, bringing the total damages that you owe to the state to be $8,679,261,600, saying that your tariffs have wreaked havoc on farmers, enraged our allies, and sent grocery prices through the roof.
J.B. Pritzker's letter to President Trump from over the weekend.
This is Paul in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Republican line.
Good morning.
Good morning.
First of all, this idea of refunds is not new.
The first person to actually talk about a tariff refund was Donald Trump.
And this is documented in newspaper headlines, what, going back four months, three or four months ago?
And he was telling them about the dividend check for American consumers.
So this isn't even, I mean, the Supreme Court in the Democratic Party, they weren't the first to talk about any refund.
It was Donald Trump.
Anyways, I would like to inform people, the press is controlling our lines.
So I would like to show the viewers that they may be in favor of tariffs and they don't even know it.
And I'll ask you these questions.
If a country is banning U.S. goods and charging tariffs on U.S. goods and making it impossible for U.S. goods to be sold in their country, shouldn't we treat them the same way that they treat us?
If you do, then you must be in favor of Trump's tariffs.
If you thought there was a way to bring $19 trillion worth of factories to the United States and have great jobs for Americans, then you must be in favor of Trump tariffs.
If there was a way to settle differences in Eurasia and Southeast Asia that could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, wouldn't that be a good idea?
Then you must be in favor of Trump tariffs.
Finally, if there was a way to save the social programs, and I'm talking about Social Security and Medicare, if there was a way to alleviate the emergency status of these programs in the United States without really any you feeling it that much, then you must be in favor of Trump tariffs.
So really, people are in favor of Trump tariffs.
It's just the news media in the United States won't allow people to think about them in the proper way.
So, you know, as far as the tariffs themselves, the legality, Biden was in, and the Democrats were in power for four years.
Why didn't they revoke the tariffs when they were in power?
The tariffs were invoked by President Trump under IEEPA, IEPA, as it's known.
But you're right that President Trump has talked about some sort of tariff rebate to Americans before in the months since invoking those tariffs.
Using Tariff Money Wisely00:06:38
The question has come up since the Supreme Court ruled those tariffs illegal on Friday, whether there would be some sort of rebate or some sort of check written to American citizens about it.
It was the president's trade representative, Jameson Greer.
He wasn't on ABC's this week yesterday.
He was also asked about this.
This is what he had to say.
And I want to ask you about refunds.
It's estimated that the tariffs raised $142 billion in revenue through the end of last year.
Will you refund the money immediately or wait for a court order?
Well, we need the court to tell us what to do.
They've created a situation where they struck down the tariffs and gave zero guidance on this.
Historically, as a trade attorney, in my experience, courts will normally give you some instruction on what to do when the Court of International Trade, which is a district-level U.S. court, my expectation is that they'll have to step in and give some direction on how they want that to be done, if at all, whether plaintiffs had to have made a claim or not.
We just need to have guidance from the court.
Trade Representative Jameson Greer there on ABC's this week, taking this conversation to the Washington Journal this morning and taking your phone calls on it on phone lines for Democrats, Republicans, and Independents.
This is Tedla out of Flushing, New York, Independent.
Good morning.
Good morning to you, sir.
I mean, well, it is $100, what, $140 billion?
And then we have a national deficit of $38 trillion.
So let's think this way.
I mean, the country is debted at $38 trillion, and each one of us owes money.
So is it not a better idea to cut?
Even if it is minor, I mean, why don't you just use it for the federal deficit?
And then that will be a common good.
Otherwise, let's each state do whatever it wants.
And most probably we can use it for our educational system, whatever.
So let's use this money for a common good rather than arguing, playing politics with it.
For me, the money is, if you give me $1,000, I will spend it.
But I would rather prefer if there is a common thing we can do in New York to help education, whatever, and then we better spend it over there because the mayor now wants to put tax on us, local tax, common property tax.
So we are in trouble in our state now.
So I think we better use it for the common good so that we will go together alone because this country has to go a long way.
$38 trillion.
What is the common good these days?
Can we even agree on what the common good is?
Yeah, for example, I'm very much worried about education in our country.
Many kids go out of college and they have no job.
And if there is any job creation, whatever, let us try to help the young people now.
Because the young people are now restless.
Because I have college graduates, kids.
They are confused.
So let's do something for the future generation, please.
Thank you very much.
That's Tedla out of Flushing, New York.
This is Annie in Lexington Park, Maryland.
Democrat, good morning.
Good morning.
Go ahead, Annie.
Good morning.
I say if we have anybody going to get any money back, it should come back to the American people, please, to the folk who were hurt most about the action of this president, in my opinion, who should not be the president since he's a 34-count convicted fellow.
That's Annie in Maryland.
This is Larry in North Carolina, Republican.
Good morning.
Hi, how are you doing?
Doing well.
First, I'd like to say Gavin Newsom and J.D. Prince are their piece of crap.
Rather than insults, Larry, what do you want to add to this conversation?
This money, I think it needs to go to the national debt.
It's about $140 billion.
We're talking about close to $39 trillion national debt at this point.
Larry, do you think it's going to make much of a difference?
Listen, we've been paying these countries all these tariffs to get their product, and we can't charge.
Is this what y'all say?
That's Larry in North Carolina.
C-SPAN viewers are familiar with Professor author Jonathan Turley.
He also has a column in the Hill newspaper, and he took up this issue of what to do with the tariff money in one of his latest pieces.
And Jonathan Turley writes, in reality, these tariffs are not going away.
Trump will just have to rely on less nimble laws, but he can pursue the same policies in the name of other causes, such as securing greater market access and other concessions from foreign governments.
So what about coughing up those past tariff dollars?
He writes.
Newsom may ultimately be disappointed.
Unless members want to further add to the deficit, Congress should intervene and uphold the tariffs retroactively.
But that may not be possible, he writes.
Democratic politicians like Newsom are not likely to want to help Donald Trump, even if that means wounding the national economy in the federal budget.
But this may offer Republicans a unique opportunity to force such a vote.
Do Democrats truly want to vote to give hundreds of billions of dollars back?
There are already more than 1,000 claimants for that money.
Those claimants, mostly the businesses who have lined up as claimants, and new calls now for checks for American consumers who are impacted by the tariffs.
Asking you what should happen to the tariff money?
Should there be refunds?
Who should they go to?
This is Bethany in Wisconsin Rapids.
Independent, good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Yeah, I agree with the last caller.
I just think it should be applied to our national debt.
Sort of any little bit helps, Bethany, and certainly $140 billion is not a little bit.
Absolutely.
I think that's probably spreading it around to the American population the best.