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July 4, 2025 07:00-10:06 - CSPAN

03:05:58

LIVE Washington Journal

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Main

alexander heffner

26:04

mimi geerges

cspan 24:47

scott stephenson

35:36

Appearances

donald j trump

admin 04:32

hakeem jeffries

rep/d 01:58

rosie rios

00:33

Clips

dan hoffman

fox 00:25

dr rebecca grant

fox 00:05

kevin kiley

rep/r 00:03

kurt nimmo

infowars 00:12

patty murray

sen/d 00:04

rachel maddow

msnow 00:07

richard spencer

00:07

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justin in texas

callers 00:33

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Speaker	Time	Text
unidentified		Your calls and comments live.
		Then, television host and author Alexander Hefner will talk about his series Breaking Bread, which features conversations with politicians to bridge the political divide.
		And the president and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution, Scott Stevenson, talks about the War of Independence and the museum's exhibit of historic war flags as the U.S. prepares to mark 250 years since its founding.
		Washington Journal starts now.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
		It's Friday, July 4th.
		It's been 249 years since the birth of America, and today's program is dedicated to the Independence Day holiday.
		For this first hour, we're asking you for your reflections on the day.
		What does Independence Day mean to you?
		How will you be marking the holiday?
		We'll take your calls, texts, and social media posts.
		Democrats can call us on 202-748-8000, Republicans, 202-748-8001, and Independents 202-748-8002.
		You can send a text to 202-748-8003, include your first name in your city-state, and you can post your comments on social media, facebook.com/slash C-SPAN and X at C-SPANWJ.
		Welcome to today's Washington Journal.
		Happy 4th of July.
		We will, before we take your calls, start with a poll that Gallup conducted last month about American pride.
		And here's the headline: American pride slips to new low.
		So take a look at it visually.
		So the question is: how proud are you to be an American?
		The options were extremely proud, very proud, moderately proud, or only a little proud or not at all proud.
		So here's the top line number.
		This is in green.
		So these are the people that responded either extremely or very proud to be an American.
		And they started taking this poll at the beginning of 2001.
		It started at 87% saying extremely or very proud.
		Went up a little bit after the 9-11 attacks.
		But you can see the trend here has been a steady decline over the years.
		Finally, this last poll was at 58% of people responded that they're either extremely or very proud to be an American.
		Breaking that up into parties, here is the visual on that.
		So the red line on here on the top is Republicans.
		You can see it's been relatively stable, ending here at 92%, saying that they are extremely or very proud.
		The blue line is Democrats.
		And you could see where that has gone.
		It's now at 36%.
		But here's the dotted line also is independence.
		And that has also gone down over the years.
		Well, President Trump was in Des Moines, Iowa yesterday, and he's kicking off a one-year celebration honoring the nation's 250th birthday, which will be a year from today.
		Take a look.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Exactly one year from tomorrow, we will celebrate the 250th anniversary of America's founding with a birthday party, the likes of which you have never seen before.
		Two years ago, I came to Iowa and promised that the festivities would begin right here at the Iowa State Fairgrounds.
		And tonight, here I am.
		Okay, promise this guy.
		Every one of our national park battlefields and historic sites are going to have special events in honor of America 250.
		And I even think we're going to have a UFC fight.
		Does anybody watch UFC, The Great Day in the World?
		We're going to have a UFC fight.
		We're going to have a UFC fight.
unidentified		Think of this on the grounds of the White House.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We have a lot of land there.
unidentified		We're going to build a little.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		We're not.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Dana's going to do it.
unidentified		Dana's great.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		One of a kind.
		We're going to have a UFC fight, championship fight, full fight, like 20,000, 25,000 people.
		And we're going to do that as part of 250 also.
		We're going to have some incredible events, some professional events, some amateur events, but the UFC fight's going to be a big deal too.
		And to fund improvements and enhanced experiences across the park system, for this anniversary, I've just signed an executive order to raise entrance fees for foreign tourists while keeping prices low for Americans.
		And we're going to do that.
		The national parks will be about America first.
		We're going to take it America first for the national parks.
		And these are just a few of the many programs, initiatives, celebrations that will renew for our national pride.
		We're going to have great pride.
		I think we do have great pride.
		think we have more pride and more spirit in our country right now than we've had in 50 years.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And by the way, just so you know, C-SPAN kicks off an 18-month project that prepares for the nation's 250th birthday next year.
		All three of our C-SPAN TV channels and platforms will have extensive coverage related to that semi-quincentennial, which is the 250th birthday of the nation.
		You won't want to miss that.
		There's a website dedicated to that as well on our website if you go to C-SPAN.org.
		Go to your calls now on Independence Day.
		Mark in New York, New York, Republican.
		Good morning, Mark.
		You're first.
unidentified		Good morning, and what a wonderful program you're doing.
		I just want to say how much I love this country because my parents were in concentration camps and the American soldiers came and liberated them.
		And I never forgot the story that my father told about when he saw the American flag and that he was free.
		And my parents came here, the land of opportunity, and I was born here.
		And I have to say my thanks are to this country.
		This is the greatest country.
		Not only saved my parents, but saved the world through many wars by sacrificing our own young people to do that.
		And the last point I would make, this also was my mother's birthday.
		And we celebrated, along with the whole country, my mother's birthday.
		But also, as Americans, we are very, very proud.
		And we should be very proud of what America does in the world.
		We're the standout nation, and there's no question about it.
		There's no place like this.
		And thank you for doing this wonderful program.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And staying in New York, New York, to Cal a Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
		Good morning.
		Hello out there at C-SPAN and happy 4th of July to everybody out there.
		I'm going to be perfectly honest.
		I am homeless.
		I am 62.
		I'm black.
		I'm waking up in a tent in Riverside Park.
		And I was just listening to Jimi Hendrix play the Star-Spangled Banner.
		And that's kind of where my mind is in terms of my country.
dan hoffman ▲ ● ▼		Feel that, especially this 4th of July, that this nation is in a period of enormous violent flux of enormous change coming from all directions that coming from not only in this country, but it's a wave that's causing a massive violent change all over the world.
unidentified		And I'm sitting in my tent and just hoping, like so many other people I feel in this country and all over the world that they're somehow individually strong enough and intelligent enough and resilient enough to withstand the violent waves of change that are happening in this country, especially when it seems that government institutions, police institutions, economic institutions can't be trusted.
		Only you can trust in yourself and your own resilience.
		I feel that so many people all over the world are feeling that way on this 4th of July.
		It's beyond the pride of one's country.
		It's just an acknowledgement that the change is so great and so violent and so unpredictable that you can only hope that you're strong enough and intelligent enough to survive it, no matter how rich or poor you are.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Cal, do you mind if I ask how you became homeless?
unidentified		Well, you know, I had a very groovy job in the video industry and I left that to go freelance and that didn't go so well.
		I am one of those many people who are employed enough, you know, in that I'm able to stay alive, but you just can't make that apartment scene of a first and a last rent.
		And frankly, there were a couple of roommate situations that I had that were so bad that it was better to be living in a tent in the park, frankly.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And are you following C-SPAN on your on an app?
unidentified		Yeah, I have it on my phone.
		I have it on my iPad.
		Frankly, it's the only news I watch.
		I can't watch that gobbledygook on any network at all.
		I watch the live video feeds.
		I was glued like so many people to the Senate slug out and the House slug out that in a way that only you provided.
		It's another way of keeping attuned to what is really happening and how you can stay resilient to it as opposed to watching some other news organization sway you one way or the other and make you upset and hostile.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		We appreciate that and good luck to you, Richard in Minneapolis, Minnesota is a Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Hi, Richard.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		Morning.
		And happy 4th of July.
		Yes.
		Well, I appreciate the freedom we have here in the United States.
		Spent four years in the Navy and North Korea shot down 31 of good friends and crew members back in 1969.
		And things I don't like about America are mostly America is great, but the city council here in Minneapolis are mainly socialists, communists.
		The property tax is so high that I might have to move to South Dakota because of the property tax.
		And one other thing I wish that the country would, the Congress would repeal a law that says that The people can't file bankruptcy for their student loan debts.
		Everybody should be able to file bankruptcy.
		I don't have an interest in that, but.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Richard, how are you celebrating the 4th of July?
unidentified		Go to the VFW and meet with friends and family and maybe go to South Dakota and go to the lake.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And as Richard mentioned, the so-called Big Beautiful Bill did pass the House.
		It is on the President's desk for signature today.
		We're expecting that around 5 p.m. this evening.
		Be sure to tune in if you'd like to watch that to the C-SPAN networks.
		Here is House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries.
		He alluded to the Declaration of Independence during his speech opposing President Trump's bill.
		Here it is.
hakeem jeffries ▲ ● ▼		But the aspirational part of the Declaration of Independence, of course, that is often famously quoted.
		But then if you read other parts of the Declaration of Independence, extraordinarily written document, it lists, it reads like an indictment against the extremism of the king.
		It reads like an indictment against the kings.
		I think of King George, it reads like an indictment against King George's flood the zone strategy.
		It reads like an indictment against King George's shock and all strategy.
		It reads like an indictment against what I think may have been called Project 1775, which is what brought us to Project 1776.
		And you look at this indictment, and one of the things it alludes to, it talks about is the notion of the king's effort to stop the assimilation of people from other parts of the world into the United States of America.
		So we understand that from the very beginning of this great country, there was a recognition, of course, of the importance of immigration to the success and vitality Of the United States of America.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Taking your calls this morning.
		This program is dedicated to Independence Day this July 4th, 2025.
		And the minority leader mentioned the Declaration of Independence.
		The New York Times actually has the whole thing printed for you on the back of their front section.
		So it is here.
		If you would like to read it, this is what it says towards the end.
		I'll just read you a little bit of it.
		It says, We, therefore, the representatives of the United States of America in General Congress assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the World for the rectitude of our intentions, do in the name and by authority of the good people of these colonies solemnly publish and declare that these United Colonies are and of right ought to be free and independent states,
		that they are absolved from all allegiance to the British crown, and that all political connection between them and the state of Great Britain is and ought to be totally dissolved.
		That's a portion of the Declaration of Independence printed in the New York Times.
		And back to the calls now to Gregory Sherman Oaks, California, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Hello.
		I am pleased and proud to be speaking to my country here in literally the very first hours of the 250th year of the United States, the very first hours of the second quarter millennium of our country.
		And I am not as proud of my country as I would really like to be on such a momentous occasion.
		There's a whole lot of ways in which I can frame this.
		One of the most important ways has to do with this country's effect on the global environment.
		Well, arguably, our main and biggest export is carbon dioxide and methane and heat-trapping gases into the atmosphere.
		Our legacy portion of the gases that are right now ruining our planet, causing fires and floods and droughts and plagues and the spread of tropical diseases all over the planet, that is arguably our greatest export.
		And we've just passed a bill in which we are just doubling down and saying, F you to the rest of the world.
		Somebody should look at the list of rescissions under Title VI from the Environment and Public Works Committee in the so-called big beautiful bill.
		It's just we're going to double down on just thrashing our still insufficient, but in the last few years, very admirable attempts to create more clean and green energy, which is arguably the single most important thing that we can manufacture and should.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Gregory.
		Yep.
		Did you have one more thing?
unidentified		Example.
		In Israel, we are partnering with the devastation of Gaza, with Israel.
		And we've created this ridiculous humanitarian, well, what's it called?
		The Gaza Humanitarian Commission that is doing a terrible job of feeding the people who aren't eating, who aren't getting enough food to eat, and they get shot to death trying to get food.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Gregory.
		And this is the front page of the Washington Post.
		Big GOP bill is ready for Trump's pen.
		This is Speaker Mike Johnson applauding yesterday after the passage of the bill.
		The vote was 218 to 214.
		Here's the front page of the New York Times.
		Trump policy bill clears Congress.
		Picture of the speaker bringing the gavel down.
		All but two Republicans were in favor, voted yes on that bill.
		Those two Republicans are Representative Thomas Massey of Kentucky and Representative Brian Fitzpatrick of Pennsylvania.
		Both those Republicans voted no.
		All others voted yes.
		Back to your calls on Independence Day.
		Ronald, Troy, New York, Republican.
		Hello, Ronald.
unidentified		Good morning.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Morning.
unidentified		I'm Colin.
		I love Independence Day because I'm American and we're free and I'm proud to be American and I'm proud of Trump.
		And I hear the Democrat Party crying all the time about pollution and all this stuff.
		And they're talking about all this stuff in the air, what's going on.
		Well, we got a man and God in heaven to take care of that.
		He brings upon the reins, wash all the carbon out of the air and all this out of the air.
		And that's where rocks and all this other stuff come from.
		It turns into that.
		And people don't know that.
		The Democratic Party is dumb as a rock.
		They want to argue about all this air and stuff pollution.
		They don't realize Trump knows all what's going on.
		And we are Christians.
		Christians prayed for Trump to get in.
		Christians' prayers were answered.
		And I'll tell that to Democrats to their faith.
		Thank you very much.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Bill, New York, New York, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Bill.
unidentified		Good morning, and thank you.
		And happy Independence Day to everyone.
		I see New York is really calling in this morning, but what I want to go to is go right to the definition of the word independence.
		I'm reading from the dictionary, the quality or state of being independent.
		So that is your independence.
		And I would say with regard to that, these people who fought at that time for independence from their foreign country who was putting so many taxes on them and keeping them oppressed by their ruling and how they treated them, I'd say that they were true fighters and stood up for this nation.
		I would also like to give a big shout out to the foundational black Americans who built this country from the mud.
		We found out that it couldn't have been done without them.
		They were the first pieces of stock on the stock market and built this country.
		So I would like to say thank you to them, from all of the immigrants who came into this country and really made a better life for themselves.
		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And thehill.com is headlining that free, quote, free America anti-Trump protests are planned on 4th of July weekend.
		The article says that the Women's March is organizing protests across the country on the 4th of July in a push to, quote, free America from President Trump and his billionaire allies.
		The group has listed some 150 gatherings in the District of Columbia, New York, Maryland, Wisconsin, Illinois, Florida, Massachusetts, and dozens of other states on its website.
		And that website is action.womensmarch.com.
		And you could see here on their website, if you put a zip code or a city, you can see what are some of the rallies and the protests that are planned around you.
		We are taking your calls this morning on this Independence Day.
		Mike, an Independent in Norwalk, Ohio.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		Today means everything.
		I'm a veteran, and my family goes all the way back to 1780 as far as serving our country.
		Now, if you're a veteran and you've been all over the world and in some very bad situations, anytime you seen the flag coming back to the base, you knew you were safe.
		I cannot imagine the people nowadays.
		If everybody just worked together, we could be something great again.
		But as usual, the Democrats are trying to split everybody, divide everybody, and take out and take control of the country again.
		The last four years have been disgraceful.
		Biden was not in control.
		Somebody else was controlling the country.
		King of Jeffries or Jeffries or whatever his name is, he's spent, what, 30-something hours on the floor.
		You can imagine if he spent 30-something hours actually working for his constituents in his own district.
		When are the people going to wake up, Democrats, and realize your party leaders are only out for themselves?
		God bless America.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so, Mike, just a correction, that was just a little over eight hours that Hakeem Jeffries spent on the floor.
		And of course, we have it all on our website, c-span.org, if you'd like to go back and listen.
		This is Bill, a Democrat, in Plainwell, Michigan.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Happy Independence Day.
		I'm very, of course, proud to be an American and what this country has afforded to me, but also I'm really embarrassed and ashamed of America after what transpired yesterday.
		And I think most rational people feel that way.
		Just a couple of comments on your last couple callers.
		The guy, the Republican three calls ago, he called Democrats, he said we're dumb as rock.
		And his solution for cleaning up the air and global warming is praying for rain and doing rain dances.
		I mean, I think that kind of speaks volumes of where we are as a society and the dumbing down of our nation.
		I grew up in a single-parent household.
		My mother was on food stamps, Section 8.
		I was on Medicaid, covered as a child.
		And I'm so thankful I've grown up in a country that had that social safety net.
		My mom is now elderly, and she is on Medicaid.
		And if she wasn't, it would be a huge burden on my family.
		I just continue to be in awe and dismayed of so many friends that I have whose parents are in the exact same situations.
		They're aging, they're relying on Medicaid, they're in homes, senior homes, and they still vote against their own family's best interests.
		They still vote for the party that wants to cut billions.
		And I know there's a religious element to it.
		I know there is a racial element to it.
		Because other than that, there's really nothing else that they stand to benefit from.
		These people make $150,000 a year, most of them, hardworking guys and women, but they've been convinced by a swindler that their country was somehow stolen from them.
		And it's just very disheartening.
		It's a very interesting time in our country's history.
		And I'm just thankful that I grew up in a country that just because I was born into poverty didn't mean I didn't have a shot to go to college or better myself.
		And I hope that it will continue to be generations true for generations to come.
		But my fear is that it's not.
		And I think they're unconscious of cowards, the Republicans, for doing what they did yesterday.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And this is Connie sent us a text in Parker, Colorado.
		She said, I am very proud to be an American, but I question if we'll have independence much longer.
		When that bill passed, I was profoundly sad because of the cruelty in it.
		So I will be in mourning today.
		And this is Kristen in Portland, Maine.
		Today we celebrate our independence from a tyrant king.
		Many of us feel we have another wannabe king.
		We're setting ourselves up for a new Independence Day kicking off in 2026.
		And this is Jim in Tampa, Florida.
		For once, the Republicans stood up for working America.
		And for this, I am proud of the party.
		This legislation will keep money in working Americans' pockets.
		Yes, I am proud to be an American.
		And Barb in Long Grove, Illinois.
		The 4th of July was always a time for parades, picnics, carnivals, and fireworks commemorating our victory during the Revolutionary War and the founding of our country and democracy.
		It is a time to reflect and take pride and give thanks for being able to live in a free country.
		Wonder what you think.
		We'll go back to the calls.
		Ralph Springfield, Ohio Republican.
		Ralph, what does Independence Day mean to you?
unidentified		Well, I'm just very thrilled.
		I come from a military family, and my mother was a naturalized citizen, and she was very proud to be an American once she got her citizenship.
		And we always celebrated the 4th.
		I'm very happy with the bill that passed yesterday.
		I'm proud the Republicans stuck together and got this done.
		I feel bad for the Democrats who listened to their people yesterday spew lies about what's in this bill.
		It was all full of falsehoods.
		I think this is going to be a great thing.
		If this hadn't passed, everyone's taxes in the country would have gone up at the end of the year.
		And I think people can't afford that, especially the working class.
		So I think it's a wonderful thing.
		I do think people need to look at the Democrat Party, what it's become.
		All they got to do is take a look at what the candidate in New York is now for mayor.
		That is what the Democratic Party is sliding into, socialism and anti-Semitism and terrible things.
		I hope they can turn it around for the sake of their party and their people.
		But if not, I think that means that we Republicans will be in office much longer.
		Happy 4th, everybody.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Happy 4th of July.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear a little bit more from President Trump from Des Moines, Iowa yesterday celebrating the passage of that bill.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Saved our country.
		We've got the hottest country anywhere in the world, as said by many, many leaders of other countries.
		And we will ignite trillions of dollars in economic growth, increase take-home pay for the typical family by more than $10,000 a year.
		And very importantly for Iowa, this bill rescues over 2 million family farms from the so-called estate tax or the death tax.
		In other words, before Trump, you were losing farms to the banks.
		Before Trump, you were losing the farms like nobody's ever seen before.
		You love your children.
		You don't feel so well.
		You pass away.
		You leave everything to your children and they have to pay a big estate tax or a death tax, as we call it.
		And they couldn't do it.
		They go out and borrow money and all of a sudden the bank is foreclosing on the farm.
		Not going to happen.
		You have no more estate tax.
		You have no more death tax to pay.
		Now that's if you love your children.
		If you don't love your children, it doesn't matter.
		Just forget about what I said.
		It's not going to help.
		But if you love them or if you love somebody that you're leaving it to, think of that.
		No death tax, no estate tax, no going to the banks and borrowing from, in some cases, a fine banker.
		And in some cases, shylocks and bad people.
		But they took away a lot of family.
		They destroyed a lot of families.
		But we did the opposite.
		So, just remember, to me, it's so important.
		And it was mostly important for places like we're at right now.
		It's really, I'm so proud of it.
		At the same time, this bill cuts $1.5 trillion in spending.
		So, wasteful spending is being cut by $1.5 trillion.
		And I got to tell you, I want to thank Republican congressmen and women because what they did is incredible last night.
		And the Senate, the Republican Senate, we got, not with all of the things we did with the tax cuts and rebuilding our military, not one Democrat voted for us.
		And I think we use it in the campaign that's coming up the midterms because we got to beat them.
		But all of the things that we've given, and they wouldn't vote only because they hate Trump.
		But I hate them too.
		You know that?
		So it's so to me.
		I really do.
		I hate them.
		I cannot stand them because I really believe they hate our country.
		You want to know the truth?
		But it kicks illegal aliens off of Medicaid and food stamps and allows us to hire 3,000 new Border Patrol agents and 10,000 new ICE agents.
		And they are great patriots, the Border Patrol and ICE, to carry out the largest deportation operation in the history of our country.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		This is a YouGov poll that has just come out, was taken last month in June.
		The headline is: Pride in Being American Has Fallen in the Past Year.
		So this is just looking over the past year.
		And here's the numbers.
		So 68% of Americans say they are proud to be an American.
		In June of 2024, so a year ago, it was 83% said that they were proud to be an American.
		So that dropped 83% to 68% over the past year.
		Here is Trish, Seattle, Washington, Democrat.
		Hi, Trish.
unidentified		Hey, perfect timing.
		I just got my teeth brushed.
		Hey, everybody.
		Yeah, I don't know.
		I have two situations about 4th of July and being an American and whether I was proud to be an American.
		The first one was my mom and my brother and I went down to the Seattle Center on 4th of July for naturalization.
		It was a great day, excellent day.
		We met up with these four guys.
		No, they were family.
		I have pictures of it.
		And they all had their American ties.
		And I give her a climp just thinking about how happy they were.
		I don't remember.
		I think they were from some European, Eastern European country, and how happy they were to be here.
		And I was so proud to be an American.
		And it was like, wow, you guys get to be with us.
		How cool.
		And then the other time I was really proud to be American.
		I was coming back from vacation in Jamaica and staying at the little hotel by the airport and getting into my room.
		And this gentleman said to me, Are you from America?
		And that was like the first time I'd ever had anybody ask me that question, Are you from America?
		And I was like, Yeah, I'm from America.
		Today, I don't feel that way.
		I am so sad that this is what we have done to our country.
		We want sick people to be sicker, hungry people to be hungrier.
		We used to have the most brilliant minds.
		We were the envy of the world.
		People are laughing at us.
		And the saddest part, and I'm going to end with this, is China is going to eat our lunch because of all of these idiotic policies.
		Just watch.
		They're going to eat our lunch.
		So today I'm proud to be an American.
		It's sick.
		It is sick.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Brenda, a Republican in Clovis, New Mexico.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Brenda.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I am a disabled veteran.
		I served my country for over 10 years.
		Married my husband, settled in Clovis.
		Patriot to the max.
		And we need to get back to that.
		We need to educate our kids.
		We need to bring civics back to our education system.
		We quit teaching our kids about the American system.
		I have grandchildren that don't even know what America is.
		I had a 16-year-old grandson that got shot twice by a 14-year-old because our country has just gone wild.
		You know, we need to bring patriotism back.
		We need to bring our economy back.
		I'm fortunate.
		I've been blessed by God.
		I'm blessed by this beautiful country.
		And I think people need to stand up instead of just buckle down, you know, stand up, buckle down for what we believe.
		People are afraid, so afraid to offend someone.
		I have Democratic friends that I've lost since Trump come into office because they hate Trump so bad that they won't stand up for what's right.
		They would rather go down burning than admit that he's doing something good for our country.
		And it just amazes me that people have lost all common sense.
		It don't matter who's president.
		They still stand up and be an American.
		Take care of yourself.
		Take care of your country.
		You know, and they're not doing that now.
		They don't teach it in school.
dr rebecca grant ▲ ● ▼		I was my stepfather stationed at Fort Knox when I was 13 years old.
unidentified		I went to a military school.
		Loved it.
		We lived in a little NX Pritchard place right across from Fort Knox.
		Every day when I went to school, Highway 30, we drove right by Fort Knox.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Brenda.
		And here's John in Heatsville, Maryland, Independent Line.
		Good morning, John.
unidentified		Good morning.
		This is my birthday today.
		I was born in 1952, 73.
		And that means I was born in the middle of the 20th century.
		And I tell you, listen to these callers, Republicans in particular, it's embarrassing.
		That caller from Ohio is typical.
		He could even pronounce Hakeem Jeffrey's name.
		And then he misstated or he just lied about how long Jeffrey spoke at the House, shall I say in front of Congress.
		He was eight hours.
		That was Corey Booker, Senator Corey Booker, who spoke 24 hours.
		Okay?
		And this is typical of the lies that some of our Americans seem to be unable to discern or to I don't know.
		It's just incredible.
		I do not hate this country.
		I had an incredible life.
		I'm an American from African descent, and I hit all, my family hit all the benchmarkers.
		My children are better educated than I am.
		And even though my wife and I are college graduates, they living on their own.
		They own their homes.
		And I am grateful, but I am truly embarrassed that the continued slide into racism is what's fueling this thing.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, John, how are you marking the day?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What are you going to be doing today?
unidentified		Well, it's my birthday.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Well, happy birthday.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I forgot to say that.
unidentified		That's what I'm going to be doing.
		And I am going to continue to listen to my fellow Americans.
		I'm going to celebrate by talking to friends and those who disagree with me.
		But I'm just to wrap it up.
		I'm just, I agree with others.
		It is a very weird and a very sad, dark place where grown adults cannot seem to discern lies.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		We got that.
		Let's talk to Michael, Smithfield, North Carolina, Republican.
		Hey, Michael.
unidentified		Good morning, Minnie.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Happy 4th of July.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What are you going to be doing today?
unidentified		Happy 4th of July to everyone in the United States of America and around the world that are American citizens.
		I'm going to watch Washington Journal.
		That's what I'm going to do.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Well, we appreciate that.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What else are you going to do?
unidentified		Yes.
		Well, it's a long day in Reseda, as the song says by Tom Petty.
		It's a long day in Reseda.
		You know, it's such long days of light right now.
		So I was thinking about going down and visiting my mother at Surf City here at North Carolina at the beach.
		There's a Surf City, New Jersey, and I think there's definitely a Surf City, North Carolina.
		It's a small beach area.
		I may go see her this weekend or today, but I may not.
		I really just feel like sitting here and watching a lot of good media coverage.
		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And what, I mean, do you want to tell us about how you feel about Independence Day and what it means to you?
unidentified		Oh, it's the best holiday other than Thanksgiving and Christmas that we could ever have.
		It's the only home we'll ever know.
		I don't know about you personally, Minnie, but it's the only home I'll ever know in my short lifetime.
		I don't think a lifetime can ever be long enough, but they all seem to be too short.
		Because right when we start figuring stuff out, it seems like we take two steps back.
		So I'm really proud of our country.
		I love my country, and I love everyone in the country.
		I think we should allow more and more good people and some people that's having hard times into the country because we are that shiny light on the hill.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael.
		Happy 4th of July.
		Here's Norman, a Democrat, in Norristown, Pennsylvania.
		Good morning, Norman.
unidentified		Well, thank you for taking my call.
		Excuse me, I'm a first-time follower of C-SPAN, and I think I have something important to share with today's listeners, if you'll patiently give me the time.
		As background, I'm 88 years old living outside Philadelphia, where I retired from the computer manufacturing business.
		I was born and raised in the Detroit, Michigan area.
		My high school buddies and I all served our time in the military.
		As a child, I have distinct World War II memories from 1944 and 1945.
		Given my background, I want to describe the bicentennial event that occurred July 3rd, 1976 in Valley Forge Park for the 4th of July celebration the following day.
		It was a time when people were proud to be Americans and were spontaneously, laughingly, and joyously breaking out into patriotic songs on buses, on subways, on trolleys, and at every sports venue.
		On that July 3rd, my wife and I were in Valley Forest Park at the moment that six horse-drawn, authentically reproduced Conestogue wagons simultaneously entered the park.
		They had started out following original wagon train paths from the state of Washington and various southern states in wagons, trains consisting of hundreds of wagons.
		A final six chosen wagons perfectly timed their simultaneous arrival into the park.
		It was a moment so emotionally powerful that the thousands upon thousands of people gathered there, my wife and I included, began crying like babies.
		The following day, then President Gerald Ford declared Bralleforge Park a National Historic Park, and the wagons spent the summer there.
		And here we are, soon to be commemorating but not celebrating our 250th year.
		Our country's spirit of union has been totally destroyed by Donald Trump in nine short years of endless lies, hateful speech, cruelty, and the total disregard of the normal civil discourse and social behavior that we all grew up with.
		The ending of USAID by Donald Trump and causing 14 million people to die of starvation is not the America I lived in for the first 97 years of my life.
		Thank you for taking my call.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Gray in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, Republican?
unidentified		Hi, yes.
		Fourth of July.
		Well, first, let me say to the previous caller, thank you for your service.
		And wow, what a long life.
		I guess 4th of July, to me, I go back to bicentennial celebration.
		I'm sure I remember 4th of July before that, but I do remember the extra-long fireworks.
		And I do remember baseball game and events that I saw on TV.
		I was a young kid, eight or nine at the time.
		And Fourth of July, to me, it's family and celebrating what it means to be America.
		It's just about celebrating the things that we share in common much more than the things we share and differences.
		You know, our founders didn't agree with each other.
		George Washington told us not to.
		He said it would be best if we didn't have political parties.
		He called them factions.
		He's like, they lead to division.
		But before he even finished his first term, we already had the makings of our political party system.
		And it did lead to divisions in the beginning, and we still have those divisions today.
		We get some good out of it.
		We get some bad out of it.
		I would like to say something about the new bill that has just passed Congress.
		You know, it's only in Washington speak that you can get increases that are called cuts.
		What I'm sure that many of your listeners don't know is that each year going forward, we're going to spend more.
		The federal government will spend more.
		We as U.S. taxpayers will fund more Medicaid that year than the year before.
		And every year going forward in this bill on the budget roadmap that they laid out, we'll spend more.
		We just won't spend as much as this supposedly independent agency called CBO said that we should spend.
		Okay, so in Washington, not increasing as much as anticipated is a cut.
		And the last thing I'd like to say about it is, is that the people who are going to lose their Medicaid coverage are going to be people who are able-bodied, working adults who refuse to work 20 hours a week.
		Okay, this is not get a job so that your employer covers your insurance.
		It is just you need to work, do something.
		You can't just stay at home and play video games, watch C-SPAN, although that would probably not be a bad thing to do.
		You just got to do some work.
		So I wish that there was a little bit more clarity in what was said in media reporting.
		Anyway, I wish everybody a happy 4th.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Happy 4th to you, Gray.
		And on your screen was the Union Station, the train station here in Washington flying those flags.
		You can see those flags.
		And this is an article from the Miami Herald about flying flags.
		It says, who flies the American flag?
		Poll finds major partisan divide ahead of July 4th.
		It says Republicans are far more likely than Democrats to own and fly an American flag.
		According to new polling, that's a YouGov Economist survey.
		More than two-thirds of GOP respondents, 68%, said they own an American flag at home, while 37% of Democrats said the same.
		Among respondents overall, 51% said they owned a U.S. flag.
		Here is Kevin in Papillion, Independent Line, Nebraska.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		Happy 4th of July.
		I would just like to comment on the big beautiful bill.
		I don't think there's enough for us common folks.
		And as far as he said there'll be no taxes on Social Security, what we're going to get is a $6,000 tax deduction.
		But that doesn't mean we'll still pay taxes on the rest of our Social Security.
		I'm 69 years old.
		I grew up in the Vietnam War.
		I was draft number so much as 68.
		I was never so scared in my life because I don't know if I would have gone to Canada or what I really would have done, but I just don't think I could kill anybody or go to war.
		So I was so happy six months before my 18th birthday, they ended the draft.
		And I was so relieved.
		You just wouldn't know, Mimi.
		And I want to thank you and C-SPAN for giving me this opportunity to say.
		And right now, I used to go to my nephew's every year for the 4th of July.
		But currently, right now, I'm handicapped and I'm in a wheelchair, and I won't be able to go anymore to his house.
		But anyway, you have a happy 4th of July, Mimi.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Happy 4th of July, Kevin.
		Here's Jim, a Democrat in White Right, Texas.
		Jim, what does Independence Day mean to you?
unidentified		It means everything to me.
		I can hardly explain it.
		My entire family is in the military.
		I mean, the boys' side.
		The girls never went.
		But it is my home.
		And everyone thinks Texas is all Republican.
		We got a lot of Democrats here.
		And we love our country more than anything, even more than our children.
		And I don't think you can understand that.
		But if you ever went outside the country and saw how everybody else is living, and they're all the dictators and whatever, and you see the poverty, my God, the poverty is so bad there outside of this country.
		And this country is really the choice country on earth.
		It is the land of milk and honey.
		It is what is written in the Bible as the one special place for people to be and one want to be.
		And I'm so, so proud to be an American.
		I know you hear about the Republicans flying the flag.
		I'm flying my flag and I'm a Democrat.
		Thank you very much.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Joel in Mountain Home, Arkansas, a Republican.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Joel, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		How are we doing to everybody?
		A happy July 4th to everyone.
		And this is the very best country there is.
		As a veteran of the Army, 22 years I retired in 1983.
		I'm 83 years old now.
		And our president, we have now, he has accomplished more than any other president except Ronald Reagan.
		Now, everybody can't be happy with this new bill, but we don't always get what we want.
		I remember at Christmas, I didn't get everything I wanted.
		So, yes, there are people unhappy.
		He did get the overtime away from the waitresses and on overtime people work and everything.
		And if you're unhappy here in America, just pack up and leave.
		I don't understand why you can be so unhappy and everything.
		And I'd just like to say my mother had to raise three of us kids when my father was killed.
		I was seven years old.
		We didn't have all the benefits that you got today.
		Also, he increased the Child Care Act and things of that nature.
		And my wife came from a foreign country.
		She's so grateful to be here.
		You people here in this country just don't realize what you have.
		If you've never been outside of your city or your home state, you don't know how grateful you should be.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Joel.
		And the Washington Post does have an article, how Trump's big bill will affect you from Medicaid cuts to tax cuts.
		The legislation has big implications for seniors, families, Medicaid recipients, immigrants, and others.
		It breaks it down here according to, like this is seniors, how it'll affect taxes, health care for families, the child tax credit, low-income households, again, tax cuts, benefit cutbacks.
		But you can read that at the Washington Post if you'd like to delve into your specific situation and how the bill might affect you.
		Here's Michael, Delaray Beach, Florida, Independent.
		What does Independence Day mean to you, Michael?
unidentified		Hi, Amimi.
		Good morning.
		Independence Day to me means victory.
		It means that we are victorious to the Lord our God who created us when we were all here under tyranny from Britain and our forefathers were taking control and we won the war and the independence and they wrote the Declaration of Independence and that's the way it should have been all these years.
		But little by little, both parties, Republican and Democrat, they've been chipping away at it, chipping away with it and you see a lot of problems that we face now because of that in our country.
		But I just want to say that we're going to be victorious again because the Lord God put a great man in office right now.
		And Donald Trump, if you could hear me, I just want to say God bless you and keep being obedient to the Lord God because through him, you're going to be victorious in every single thing you do.
		God is going to reshape this country.
		And also for everybody else that's listening out there, don't be fooled.
		The Lord isn't going to delay.
		His rapture's coming.
		He said it in his word.
		He means it.
		And the rapture will take place.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Michael.
		And here's Lisa Des Moines, Iowa Democrat.
		Good morning, Lisa.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Thank you so much.
		I'm a first-time caller.
		I've been listening for a bit.
		Independence Day today means to me picnics with my family, carnivals, car shows, fireworks.
		And it rarely had anything to do with, oh, I'm sorry.
		I was there in 1976 for the celebration of our country.
		And it's not what it was.
		The country that I live in today is unrecognizable.
		I'm ashamed to call myself an Iowan.
		Republicans have, as far as I'm concerned, raped this country.
		We're harming people of cuddler every day.
		And white people seem to think that that's the way it's supposed to be.
		And we are always supposed to give people a hand up.
		We never give people a hand down.
		And I just wanted to say that America needs to go a long way to get back to where it was.
		People are important.
		Trump is just taking every penny he can get his hands on and cramming it in his pockets and in his family's pockets.
		And when he runs out of family's pockets to fill it up, he's going to find oligarch friends to fill up those pockets.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Lisa.
		Here's Angela in Virginia, Republican.
		Good morning, Angela.
unidentified		Good morning.
		And I want to say that I am very, very excited and happy to be an American.
		And also, you know, I think about my ancestors who were enslaved.
		And, you know, from 1776 to 1865 was about 89 years.
		And from 1865 to now, it's been 160 years.
		So my family have been free in this country for over 160 years, for right in 160 years longer than my ancestors were ever enslaved.
		So I'm grateful to the United States for doing something that other countries in the history of the world did not do, and that was to fight to end slavery in this country, which under the American flag wasn't even 100 years.
		And the way that the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights and our Constitution was written, it was written so that the day could be realized that America does not want to hold slaves.
		That was passed on from England, from Europe.
		And being a new country, it was only, it was less than 90 years that they held slaves.
		And so I think that is a testament to our country and what freedom means.
		And I can trace my family back to 1818 in North Carolina.
		So I am grateful to be an American.
		And I am grateful that our country had the vision to begin to end slavery in the world.
		And it started here with the Civil War.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Got it, Angela.
		And Lori on Facebook says that Independence Day to her means freedom to enjoy this country.
		Unfortunately, I don't have that freedom anymore.
		Thanks to the current administration, I won't be celebrating today.
		And Gerald also on Facebook says this is probably one of the best Independence Days because of the big, beautiful bill that is going to get signed today.
		It's great to be an American because with our great president, we are winning every day.
		And that bill is on the president's desk.
		As Gerald mentioned, it's expected around 5 p.m. this evening, and you can stay with the C-SPAN networks to see that.
		Here's Nell, Frewesburg, New York, Independent Line.
		Good morning, Nell.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		When I think of this day, what independence means to me is what G.K. Chesterton, G.K. Chesterton, the great British writer, social commentator of the last century, said, America is the only nation in the world that is founded on a creed.
		That creed is set forth with dogmatic and even theological lucidity in the Declaration of Independence.
		Meaning, we are all endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
		And that government is instituted simply to protect these rights, not to give handouts, not to perform welfare, but simply to protect the rights of the people.
		So I am so happy to be an American because we have this wonderful creed that's been with us for nearly 250 years, and we're celebrating that today in Mayville, New York, that has the best Independence Day parade, I feel, in the nation.
		And it's based on Christmas in July.
		Think about this meeting.
		John Quincy Adams, the son of John Adams, said, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior of the world.
		Jesus came to redeem.
		And that redemption has political implications, freedom for people.
		And I feel like our creed, the Declaration, sets that forth in such a profound way.
		And I'm celebrating that today.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Nell.
		And later on, the Washington Journal, we'll take a look into the founding of our country as we kick off an 18-month initiative here at C-SPAN commemorating America's 250th birthday.
		We'll be joined by Scott Stevenson.
		He's president and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia to discuss that era in American history.
		But first, television host and author Alexander Hefner discusses his series featuring conversations with politicians, an attempt to forge political unity and civility.
		We'll be right back.
unidentified		America marks 250 years, and C-SPAN is there to commemorate every moment.
		From the signing of the Declaration of Independence to the voices shaping our nation's future, we bring you unprecedented all-platform coverage, exploring the stories, sights, and spirit that make up America.
		Join us for remarkable coast-to-coast coverage, celebrating our nation's journey like no other network can.
		America 250.
		Over a year of historic moments.
		only on the C-SPAN networks.
		Book TV, every Sunday on C-SPAN 2, features leading authors discussing their latest nonfiction books.
		Here's a look at what's coming up this weekend.
		At 6:45 p.m. Eastern, former President Bill Clinton talks with his co-author James Patterson about their latest novel, The First Gentleman, a White House mystery that leads to the first gentleman facing trial for murder.
		And then at 8 p.m. Eastern, author interviews from this year's Freedom Fest.
		First, Freedom Fest founder and author Mark Scousin shares his book, The Greatest American, about the life and ideas of Benjamin Franklin.
		He's followed by Pacific Research Institute Vice President Tim Anaya with his book, The California Left Coast Survivor's Guide, where he and his co-author criticize the Democratic Party's governing of the state.
		And at 9 p.m. Eastern, Pulitzer Prize-winning biographer Ron Chernow examines the life and writing career of Samuel Langhorn Clemens, better known as author Mark Twain.
		Watch Book TV every Sunday on C-SPAN 2 and find a full schedule on your program guide or watch online anytime at booktv.org.
		This Independence Day, celebrate our nation's birthday with our 4th of July sale going on right now at cspanshop.org, C-SPAN's online store.
		Save up to 15% on all C-SPAN products site-wide, including all things red, white, and blue.
		There's something for every C-SPAN fan, and every purchase helps support our nonprofit operations.
		Scan the code or go to c-spanshop.org to shop our 4th of July sale going on right now.
		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to the program.
		We're discussing bridging the political divide with our guest, Alexander Hefner.
		He's host of Breaking Bread and the Open Mind.
		He's also co-authored a documentary, History of the United States.
		Alexander, welcome to the program.
		Happy 4th of July.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Same to you, Mimi.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So talk about the premise of this program called Breaking Bread and where you came up with the concept.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Well, it was during the pandemic when we were mostly quarantined.
		And the idea was simple.
		Having a meal really opens up the discourse in a way that the kind of dysfunctional political dialogue in D.C. we've witnessed has not in these recent decades.
		And so when you were in those periods of isolation and yearning for our deliberative democracy, to have dialogue across differences, to learn what it feels like to be an American from the perspective of an Alaskan or a South Dakotan or a New Yorker or a New Mexican, that's what I endeavored to do.
		And so 22 episodes later, after two seasons of Breaking Bread, which you can find on 13.org or theopenmind.com, we did that.
		And I think that they are illuminating of our culture across these boundaries, across all 50 states and our topography, geography, creed.
		And that itself in this media environment, I hope can be celebrated.
		The idea of learning about the constituencies in these different places.
		And of course, the premise was Anthony Bourdain meets Washington Journal or Face the Nation, meet the press to talk about meaty public policy.
		And if I can, on this July 4th, your callers reflect the spectrum of American political disposition and viewpoint.
		That is across ideas of pluralism, of patriotism, of what it means to be an American.
		And we used to be able to have that collage of disparate viewpoints and ideas collectively and then deliberate over them.
		And that's what the founding of the republic and this union that we seek to preserve, protect, and defend.
		That's what it's about.
		It's about the meddley of these ideas and compromise, coalition building, and doing so in a way that's empathetic, that's learned.
		Our framers, founding fathers and farmers, were educated people.
		They were enlightened.
		And they were also evolving in their consciousness and their morality as human beings, because that's what we do.
		We evolve in the way we think.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So, Alexander, getting back to the program is breaking bread, it takes place over a meal.
		I mean, there's lots of conversations, but yours, there's a meal involved.
		Why food?
		What's the benefit of eating with your guests?
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that it disarms.
		I think that it puts people in a happy place.
		You know, whether it was Governor Cox in Utah and his favorite Thai food, he got a text from a friend and constituent saying, you got to try this Thai restaurant in Salt Lake City.
		It's the best Thai I've ever had.
		There's a sense of community because as Kennedy said in his American University speech, during the Cold War, as an appeal to peace, we breathe the same air.
		And the food, whether that is through farming or commerce, we also have to do that for our sustenance.
		So there's something about survival.
		And ultimately, politics and decision-making that informs politics is about survival.
		It's not about ideals.
		Initially, it's about furthering civil society and the survival of our fellow human beings over a period of time.
		So food does that naturally.
		As Majority Leader Thune said in our episode in Murdoch, South Dakota at a diner, you know, what's going to bring the echo chamber to a halt and what's going to bring the Republicans and Democrats together?
		He said good old-fashioned pizza and ice cream on the Senate floor.
		I asked him about what snacks are in the respective chambers in the cloakrooms.
		But that's the problem.
		And it's been the problem with the landmark legislation that it has been uniformly Democrats or Republicans.
		And when we've had landmark legislation in the past, and you alluded to the president signing new landmark legislation at 5 p.m. this afternoon, it has been part of a deliberative process.
		And that's where the failure is now.
		There's no deliberation.
		It is one-party rule.
		And if the Democrats are in control, they are going to vote for that legislation.
		If the Republicans are in control, they're going to do that.
		And that's what our series endeavored to confront, this idea that there are good ideas, there's Republican and Democratic innovation going on in all of our states at different levels.
		And that leads me, Mimi, to the third season of Breaking Bread that we're just going into production now.
		And we're going to focus on mayors of the world, of the world, not just the United States.
		So I'm sitting down with the mayor of Miami in a couple of weeks.
		We've got the mayor of Detroit, mayor of Atlanta, and then the mayor of Athens, the mayor of Lisbon.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Mimi, you just want Portuguese and Greek food.
		I think that's what it is, Alexander.
		But before we get too far away from it, I want to let people know that if you'd like to call in and talk to our guest about bridging the political divide, you can do so.
		Our lines are Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		And Independence 202-748-8002.
		Let's take a look at something from season two that you did with Breaking Bread with your conversation with Wyoming's Republican governor, Mark Gordon, about the extremes in our politics.
		And here you're eating steak.
		Take a look.
unidentified		I do think that is the problem when the government tries to fix everything from a centralized regulatory premise.
unidentified		I think we've got to allow for people to make their own choices.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		There are moderates who posture to moderate or moderate to posture.
		And then they're moderates, and you're self-described conservative too.
		But they're moderates who are moderate because it just makes sense.
		It just resonates with you and folks and feels right.
unidentified		Well, I feel that there is a radical center that is where things get done.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		What do you say to those politicians who are exploiting the dysfunction for their personal or partisan gain and to the point of bringing the country to a default, to crisis?
unidentified		Sure.
		I tend not to try to talk because usually when you have decided to exploit that frame of reference, you've got to exploit it at all costs.
		For me, if there's a better way and a way to be able to bring more people along by being reasonable, by listening, by recognizing the fact that the power is not in the individual, it's in the people.
		My hope is that people will start to come off of those extremes on either side.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		As our medium rare steaks come out.
unidentified		Absolutely.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		I hear this is your favorite cut.
unidentified		Or one of your favorite cuts.
		Yes, yeah.
		I love a flat iron.
		What are your favorite sides to have with a steak?
		I love a baked potato.
		Always have loved a baked potato.
		I grew up hating Brussels sprouts, but lately, our kids have been grilling Brussels sprouts, and I love a good grilled Brussels sprout, a little parmesan, a little garlic on it.
		And your steak's good, just right.
		Yeah, perfect.
		Perfect.
		Perfect.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Alexander Hefner, quite the pivot there from extremism and politics to how do you take your steak?
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, there are pivots, and I think the organic chemistry comes out as the dishes do.
		But, you know, on this Independence Day, I want to just give a shout out to my elementary school brethren.
		Yesterday, as I always do, I prepared for an annual viewing of 1776, The Musical, in which I performed as Thomas Jefferson.
		I've alluded to this on The Open Mind in the past.
		Born through that production and Gary Miller, the music teacher, beloved music teacher, I gained a sense of identity as an American singing.
		This was notoriously, or happily, Richard Nixon, President Nixon's favorite play.
		And I say that not tongue-in-cheek, because in reality, the lyrics of that song, Dear Mr. Adams, and the entire track of 1776, which you can watch on Tubi for free right now, they speak to our contemporary dilemmas and debates as Americans and human beings.
		The same things that I'm talking about with Governor Gordon, about the deliberative process of democracy, republicanism, human values, human rights, civil rights.
		And it's that sense of community that after years of not connecting with one of the singers in that song, Dear Mr. Adams, a friend from elementary school, I texted him yesterday.
		He replied pretty instantly.
		I showed that I was listening to the track on Spotify.
		And to me, that idea of community is so resonant that it doesn't matter if you're from a rural or urban community, to have the opportunity to learn about the founders, the committee that wrote the Declaration of Independence.
		That's what it means to be an American.
		And I think that we lose track of that too often in our current debates about politics.
		There can be unifying threads in our communities.
		And that's why I think it's important to tackle this from the perspective of mayors and local issues.
		As the former mayor of New York City used to ask pedestrians on the street, how am I doing?
		Right?
		He wanted to know the real McCoy with candor and authenticity how fellow New Yorkers were feeling about potholes being repaired or not.
		And that's the defining act of a public servant is to assess the quality of life for that person and see if they are representing the will of that person.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's take calls now.
		We've got Alice, a Republican in Arvada, Colorado, who wants to talk to you.
		Alice, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm a Republican who did not vote for President Trump, not because I didn't want him to be president, but because I didn't want to experience all the hate that we're feeling now.
		I get hate on the TV.
		I get hate that they hate Donald Trump.
		My fellow Democrats who are neighbors, oh, it's hard to even have a discussion about anything.
		They always bring that up.
		So what I was going to ask the guest is, what did you think about the No Kings March?
		I felt it was disrespectful on a date where we were celebrating our 250th year of the armed forces.
		And I just feel it's, you can give your viewpoints, but more than half the nation voted for President Trump.
		More than half the nation, I think we both, on both sides, should respect each other.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
		We were born out of a rowdiness.
		I mean, you can think of the Boston Massacre, the Tea Party.
		And when Americans feel as though they're not represented in political life, we have this indispensable First Amendment that is empowering us to safely protest civil disobedience that is safe,
		but first and foremost, people on the streets with permits and the opportunity to petition their government through legal means.
		So I think there's always going to be agitation.
		President Adams and President Jefferson in their correspondence post-presidency both commented on the nature of executive power and their responsibility as being to the whole of the country.
		And They were both vilified by the press at various points in their presidencies.
		The early pamphleteers and the Paines, the Thomas Paynes of the era, were speaking out about the tyranny and totalitarianism of the British.
		And so, in our evolving as Americans, I think we want to continue to foster free and open protest, elections, discourse.
		And where it gets tricky is in the event of violence.
		And that's why we ought to pride ourselves on the aspiration of civil society and understanding that what civil discourse means is dialogue, deliberation, and disobedience that is not violent, that is safe and not endangering your fellow Americans.
		And I think we lose sight of that too, because we've had protests in this country, whether it was Vietnam or the Iraq War or the No Kings protest, where there was a predominantly peaceful engagement of ideas.
		And then bad apples or single actors can completely defy that understanding.
		And that's regrettable.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Ellen in Oyster Bay, New York, Democrat.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, Oyster Bay.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, I love Oyster Bay.
		Here we are, gorgeous.
		Happy 4th of July, everyone.
		We're going to our local parade right now.
		I am absolutely horrified by the extreme measures in politics that are going on, in particular, as you mentioned, the centralized regulatory environment.
		I got an email from the Social Security Department.
		I'm an old lady, 74 years old, and I am horrified by this email because it means there's a totalitarian takeover of our entire government.
		Why am I getting that?
		Any other time when we've dealt with Social Security, it's very, you know, it's nonpartisan for everybody in the country.
		This email, all of you have it in your email box today.
		Anybody who deals with Social Security issues.
		And it actually shouts out and lauds this, what I feel is a horrible law that just passed.
		And it talks about how wonderful our President Donald Trump is.
		We never got anything like this during any other time in history directly from the Social Security Department, which is supposed to be, I think, non-political.
		But when you're talking about centralized regulation, and Frank Bizignano, who is the highest paid CEO in the country before he took over the Social Security, I think is horrifying.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Ellen.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Alexander.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's useful to know.
		And if, in fact, what the caller said is happening, which is this centralized politicization of something like the Social Security Administration, that is troubling.
		It is the prerogative of the governing party, whether it was the Affordable Care Act or the Recovery and Reinvestment Act or the Infrastructure Act under President Biden.
		It is the prerogative and it is within their legal right to laud and tout those achievements.
		Now, this legislation that is a significant tax cut, from what I understand, for large corporations and billionaires, how that is consistent with supporting the fiduciary infrastructure of Social Security, I don't understand that.
		So, I would be interested from the caller's perspective, what was the substance of that letter?
		Let's be honest, ideologically, intellectually honest.
		We're at a stage, this has nothing to do with President Trump.
		This has to do with American life and technology, where you can call something a big, beautiful bill, and it is whatever the beauty one thinks it is, or whatever terrible horror one thinks it is.
		We're at this precarious moment in our political life where we've lost any semblance of context, depth, or nuance.
		And I mean, I think that we're not honoring our forefathers, those members of the Declaration Committee, Mr. Adams, Mr. Jefferson, Mr. Sherman, Mr. Livingston, Mr. Franklin.
		These are the cast members on my text thread this morning.
		We're not honoring them when we call something a big, beautiful bill and do not support the context, again, or nuance of understanding what something means.
		So I'm concerned about this kind of reductionism in our political life, saying we can't afford to understand the specifics of things.
		And that is a non-ideological transmission, extrapolation towards anti-democratic life.
		We're supposed to be represented in those ideas.
		And that's why I'm a big proponent of participatory democracy, where every given town, municipality, state, city engages in debates and discussions before and after a budget to do it together as a community, not one council member who's the majority leader, one committee chair.
		And I fear that the unilateral approach in executive power is a betrayal of our roots.
		After all, we fought the king and these taxes that we thought were unworthy of representing us.
		And we did not feel that the public policies that were being deployed did represent us.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's talk to Mark.
		Little River, South Carolina.
		Republican.
		Good morning, Mark.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Happy 4th of July.
		What we need to, a lot of Americans need to reflect, Mr. Hefner, on this great holiday is when the United States was unified.
		When JFK was president, they had people that said they voted for him and they didn't vote for him.
		Actually, his points of views today would be considered like Republican point of views.
		When 9-11 happened, everybody got together.
		Nobody's like, are you Republican or are you Democrat?
		And I look at sports.
		Sports is a big universe.
		No one's like, when you're chairing for your team like the Yankees or somebody, no one says, are you Republican?
		Are you Democrat?
		We're all Yankee fans.
		And that's just my point.
		And I just wanted to make that.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Alexander, any comment on that?
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Oh, thank you, sir.
		Yeah.
		I mean, when you go to a stadium, just like when you go to a restaurant and have good food, you know, whether the chef is conservative, liberal, libertarian, anarchist, whatever, I mean, your palate is fed and satisfied.
		And I think the sports example is an excellent one, too.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Alexander, let's show that actually from season two.
		We've got a portion of your conversation with Governor Wesmore of Maryland at Camden Yards in Baltimore.
		And the discussion is about gentrification.
unidentified		How are we doing things that show that we can grow, but we can actually grow inclusively and grow together?
		I think that's what people in the city and that's people in the state, that's what we all hope for.
		Are there folks who are too resistant to gentrification?
		Yes, because gentrification for gentrification's sake can be dangerous.
		Neighborhoods are going to adjust, neighborhoods are going to grow.
		You need to create neighborhoods that are having increased opportunities for the people that live there and not decrease or stagnate.
		But you also have to take care of the people who are there.
		The fear of gentrification isn't this idea of a fear of change.
		It's that the change will benefit only some and not everybody.
		And when I hear gentrification, I hear safety.
		I hear public safety.
		You mentioned public safety.
		But that was really the intent.
		It wasn't we're going to have $10 cupcake shops.
		And that's what is still lacking in a lot of urban centers in America.
		Is that the most salient challenge that we ought to tackle?
		I mean, because it's connected to health and well-being and jobs and livelihoods.
		I mean, I think the most salient challenge is how do we focus on growth but make sure that it's participatory?
		How do we focus on making our state more competitive, but also knowing it can also still be more equitable and that it's not a choice, that you can and you will do both.
		I think one of the biggest challenges we have is so many of the conversations always become binary, right?
		It's either or.
		I didn't come from a political background.
		I didn't come from a political family.
		I never ran for office before running for governor.
		And one of the frustrations I always had about politics was people were saying, well, it's either this or that.
		I actually don't think that's true.
		I think it was a model that was created by political forces who wanted people to feel that it was a choice, that it was binary.
		And in order for me to win, it meant you must lose.
		I just don't think that's the way people function.
		I don't think that's the way society works unless we train it to work that way.
		And I think here in Maryland, we're just choosing not to train it that way.
		We're choosing to try to depoliticize.
		We're choosing to try to actually open up opportunities that can be inclusive and know that it's not a bad thing and it shouldn't be scary to people.
		In fact, if anything, if you really want to grow, you diversify, right?
		It's the basic model of financial growth.
		The best way of making sure that you can have real pure growth, long-term growth, is a diversification of your assets.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Alexander Hefner, your comments on that.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think what Governor Moore is getting at is the competition of ideas happening on a daily basis and it being a non-political event.
		So the previous caller talked about sports.
		And there are rules of games, but there also are games the next day in a postseason to compete when you've had adequate preparation over the course of days, weeks, and months.
		And there's always a new leaf that you can turn over.
		And yes, there are teams that have more billions than others.
		In the event of the purest sporting affair of Little League, let's say, these are our natural talents and proclivities as players, and we're going to do all we can.
		And that's what I think the governor is getting at, which is let this be detoxed, depoliticized.
		Let's talk about the ideas, the public imperative of safety, and always going back to the Declaration.
		I mean, one thing that Democrats and Republicans, I think, fundamentally, and of course, independents and non-affiliates, most Americans are proud on this day of the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.
		The messy part is how we get there.
		It always has been and always will.
		But we can get there in a pugnacious and happily pugnacious way or a destructively pugnacious way.
		And again, that pugnacious quality emanates from the beginning of the Republic.
		I think it's always, and I've said this on your air before, aspirations and resentments.
		Let the angels of our aspirations propel us forward as opposed to the demons of our resentments.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Amelia, Democrat in Chicago, Illinois.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'm a teacher.
		Hi.
		Thank you so much for coming on the show and dialoguing with us and sharing your ideas and stories.
		Really appreciate it.
		I'm deeply inspired.
		I'm a teacher and I lead a community group that does a theater of dignity.
		So we have actors, both amateur, professional, also even activist actors, play roles of people in situations whose dignity is violated.
		And these are situations, it could be anybody or anything.
		And what we do is the audience then doesn't have to participate, but they can share what they're seeing, what they're feeling, what they think the conflict's about.
		And we ask them questions to bring out of them all their ideas.
		We also introduce as people are running out of ideas, different ideas from international conflict negotiation between warring party, the work of people like Donna Hicks and Archbishop Desmond Tutu, or the calling in framework of Loretta Ross and things like restorative mediation and transformative justice, John Paul Lutterak.
		And so by the end of a session, there's all kinds of ideas that have been shared about what people can do to try to, especially in nonviolent contexts, too, speaking of nonviolent civil resistance and the importance.
		We bring all these things together and the actors and audience even can act these things out so people can see and feel.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Amelia, let's get Alexander Hefner to respond.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I want to give a shout out to my friend David McCullough.
		We both come from families that have been dedicated to civic life.
		And he's undertaken a project in the similar frame of reference where it's an exchange program and graduating high school seniors will travel from one jurisdiction to another to see how the other half lives.
		And that is a formative text, how the other half lives, in most social studies curricula.
		So, I'm a proponent of what you're describing, of the acting, but it can't just be, as we say in TV parlance, the green room, right?
		When we're simulating conversation, the best outcome would be for participants in breaking bread, like Senator Murkowski and Senator Kelly, who I've used as examples from Alaska and Arizona representing the Democrats and Republicans, to take all of that political, social intelligence and capital from their breaking bread exchanges.
		And now that the partisan agenda of Build Back Better and Big Beautiful Bill seem to have concluded, let's get to work together, right?
		And that's what makes it so hard: you produce a partisan piece of legislation and then you get re-elected or endeavor to get re-elected.
		So, you know, we need less acting and more action of real-time behavior in the political realm.
		And one more shout out, I gave one to Miller, but Ms. Cantwell, and she's another social studies teacher from my middle school time, who encouraged that kind of robust conversation about public affairs when at a time in a school district, it was not a favorable thing, the idea of talking about the real world.
		Well, I'm sorry, we have to talk about public policy, practical implications of decision-making.
		And so, kudos to her and all of her colleagues who saw that light and wanted to exist in the real realm of social studies that is taught by textbook, but also we can't ignore what's going on around us.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Edward, Jersey City, New Jersey, Independent Line.
		Good morning.
		You're next.
unidentified		Hi.
		Good morning.
		Happy Independence Day.
		Mr. Hessner, my American symbol for independence, the greatest symbol, I think, would be like Abraham Lincoln, you know, obviously, you know, for overseeing the decisions that he made while he was president, you know, during the Civil War.
		And the most consequential, you know, not even being the war and the turnout of the war, but the 13th Amendment, knowing that Congress and law, you know, had to do it.
		It wasn't, you know, necessarily violence in a sense.
		We're not fans of violence, of course.
		I'm saying that to myself now, you know, and Lincoln was the greatest example of that, like even winning the war, of course, but needing law, you know, to codify our humanity into existence.
		But I want to ask you this question.
		What would be your greatest symbol for independence, you know, in the country?
		And also.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Wow, well, thank you for that history lesson, sir.
		And also, Lincoln is one figure of that era.
		We know him as the great emancipator.
		I would concur with you that he is that symbol.
		I also think that Franklin Delano Roosevelt in our recovery from the Great Depression and perseverance and ultimate victory in World War II is that symbol of liberty renewed.
		I don't only talk about President Lincoln, though.
		I talk about a fellow Harvard alum, not John Adams, but Charles Sumner, who was likewise a cantankerous, persistent advocate of liberty.
		And he petitioned for the realization of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments, as we say, in real life, right?
		So there was the execution of that legislation and amendments to the Constitution, but then there was the reality, as you well know, of a dream deferred, the rights deferred that were intended to be guaranteed as part of the reunion of the North and South.
		And as partisan and vitriolic and vicious our politics may seem today, that was an era where we were literally warring factions and then we reunited.
		Charles Sumner and President Lincoln, Senator Sumner from Massachusetts, represent that symbol to me because Sumner wanted to ensure that those amendments were going to be practiced in actuality.
		And Jim Crow laws, the KKK, and everything that came after the Civil War prevented the realization of emancipation in a real economic sense and in terms of the civil rights of the formerly enslaved and descendants of the formerly enslaved.
		So I think it's Lincoln, it's Sumner, and fast forward to the present, it is people who defended our ideals from Roosevelt to Reagan.
		I think it's a safe measure of liberty.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		I want to go back to what you were saying about your plans for season three, which is the mayors of the world.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What are you hoping to learn from that series?
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Well, look, I think the reality is that we're observing a more insular or isolationist politics in this present administration.
		And I don't say that for better or worse.
		You know, there was intervention in the Israel-Iran conflict, so that conflicts with that.
		But there's the perception, because of the downsizing of the diplomatic corps and the State Department, that we are on the precipice of kind of being a deadbeat pariah when it comes to diplomacy.
		Now, President Trump has his own irreverent style of diplomacy that he displayed on The Apprentice for many seasons.
		And I watched The Apprentice as a kid, and I saw that, but that was theater.
		And the question remains, in real life, once again, can he make those strides on the international stage at the time that we are going to austerity in the State Department, shrinking these vehicles of diplomacy that have stood the test of time?
		When I say stood the test of time, on The Open Mind recently, we did a series of episodes on the threat of nuclear proliferation and approaches to counter that, which ought to be a nonpartisan issue.
		And I mention that because aside from the Cuban Missile Crisis, when it comes to these past decades, we believe that both soft power and military defense have been that protective boundary for our country.
		And for me, I think it seemed logical to take the idea of breaking bread, to learn about democratic functions and government functions and what the public thinks of them in places outside of the United States, because it's not evident that our State Department is going to be engaging in successive years in that same kind of bridge building.
		So that fundamentally is why I think it's so crucial to take the concept of exchanges of culture, not just to our 50 states, but to the world.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And how can people watch the program Breaking Bread?
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		So they can stream it on Bloomberg TV, Bloomberg Originals.
		They can also go to, like I said, 13.org or theopenmind.com to find the archive of our episodes with people that your viewers are familiar with because they see them on the hill or in their respective states giving their states of the state.
		These are important individuals, some unsung leaders.
		So you can find it all the archive on the web of these 22 episodes, which capture not just the politics, but I think the culture of these diverse states of our union.
		And as you alluded to, you can check out upcoming episodes too at those same links.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, that's Alexander Hefner.
		He's the host of Breaking Bread and the Open Mind.
		Thanks so much for joining us today.
alexander heffner ▲ ● ▼		Happy 4th, Mimi.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		You too.
		And later on the Washington Journal, a look into the founding of our country as we kick off an 18-month initiative here at C-SPAN commemorating America's 250th birthday.
		We'll be joined by Scott Stevenson, president and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia to discuss that era in American history.
		But first, we return to our question this morning.
		What does Independence Day mean to you?
		The lines are on your screen.
		Democrats 202748-8000.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		And Independents 202-748-8002.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
		As the nation prepares to celebrate 250 years, C-SPAN is your front row seat for extensive coverage on our nation's journey.
		And today, July 4th, C-SPAN brings you 24 hours of special programs, starting live with Washington Journal at 9 a.m. Eastern from the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia.
		Then at 1220 p.m. Eastern, the recent Army 250th Anniversary Parade.
		And at 6.45 p.m. Eastern, a ceremony marking the 250th anniversary of the Battle of Bunker Hill.
		On Saturday at 11 a.m. Eastern, on American History TV on C-SPAN 2, a Revolutionary War reenactment at George Washington's Mount Vernon with a speech by General Washington.
		I am not a Virginian, but an American.
		Watch C-SPAN's America 250 coverage beginning this week on the C-SPAN networks and the C-SPAN Now app, our free mobile video app.
		Also, scan the code or go online to c-span.org slash America250 for programming and scheduling information.
		America 250, exploring the American story, only on the C-SPAN Network.
		July 4th, 2026, marks the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
		And Sunday, on C-SPAN's Q ⁇ A, we're joined by former U.S. Treasurer and the chair of the America 250 Commission, Rosie Rios.
		She'll talk about several of the events that will occur over the next year, including the U.S. Army's 250th anniversary parade back in June and other initiatives that the public can participate in leading up to the anniversary.
rosie rios ▲ ● ▼		The movement and the moment.
		And let me just say, There's a couple of moments that are unprecedented that have never happened before in this country that are being planned as we speak.
		That is so unreal.
		If I showed you the screenshot of what we're planning, your first reaction, as it was for our commission, was: you've got to be kidding, it's happening.
		And it is happening.
		So stay tuned.
		Much more to come.
		But again, what I'm most excited about is continuing our programming long after 2026.
unidentified		America 250 Commission Chair Rosie Rios, Sunday night at 8 p.m. Eastern on C-SPAN's QA.
unidentified		You can listen to Q&A and all of our podcasts on our free C-SPAN Now app.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		Mike said before, I happened to listen to him.
unidentified		He was on C-SPAN 1.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		That's a big upgrade, right?
unidentified		But I've read about it in the history books.
		I've seen the C-SPAN footage.
		If it's a really good idea, present it in public view on C-SPAN.
rachel maddow ▲ ● ▼		Every single time I tuned in on TikTok or C-SPAN or YouTube or anything, there were tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people watching.
unidentified		I went home after the speech and I turned on C-SPAN.
unidentified		I was on C-SPAN just this week.
patty murray ▲ ● ▼		To the American people, now is the time to tune in to C-SPAN.
donald j trump ▲ ● ▼		They had something $2.50 a gallon.
unidentified		I saw on television a little while ago in between my watching my great friends on C-SPAN.
		C-SPAN is televising this right now live.
		So we are not just speaking to Los Angeles, we are speaking to the country.
		Washington Journal continues.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Welcome back to Washington Journal.
		It is Independence Day.
		Happy 4th of July, everybody.
		We are asking you, what does Independence Day mean to you?
		We've got about 15 minutes.
		We'll take your calls and start with Carl in Rockland, Maine.
		Democrat, good morning, Carl.
unidentified		Good morning to you.
		Well, I'll tell you how I feel about Independence Day after I watch that big, beautiful bill pass.
		I live on about $16,000 a year.
		And what's happened to my life in the state of Maine is our tourism is down 60%.
		Groceries are up higher than they've ever been.
		Gasoline is 25 cents higher.
		Oil is a quarter higher.
		And I called my oil company yesterday.
		I had money allocated by Congress, $500 to help me in the cold winter months.
justin in texas ▲ ● ▼		When they call me yesterday and tell me I have zero in my account, Trump says we're under attack and under war, so he's impounded my money.
unidentified		So while he's down there celebrating the big bill, and I'm a veteran too, with three herniated discs in my back, I don't see how you can live in a country.
justin in texas ▲ ● ▼		I turned on my TV the other day and I see an old man with a weed whacker in his hand being thrown to the ground by three or four ICE agents.
unidentified		And I used to go to police academy for a couple years.
unidentified		When you have an old man subdued and you've got him laying on his back, why do I have to watch an ICE agent punch him in the face five times?
justin in texas ▲ ● ▼		He also had three sons, two in the active military Marines and one that's out of the Marines now.
unidentified		And now you turn on your TV.
		It reminds me of watching Russia years ago when they were protesting against Putin.
		We have up here in Maine lately, we've got vans riding around and guys jumping out and ripping you into the van and taking you away because your license plate on your vehicle was off-centered by three-quarters of an inch.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Arlen in Oak Hill, Florida, Republican Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Independence means to be independent of aggression.
		And how can I say, okay, too many of our citizens have taken advantage of our independence.
		Red, white, and blue is our flag color, not black, red, and white.
		Marxists, communists, everything is being happened.
		So please, people, be aware of colors and just enjoy your freedom.
		And my children who have passed, we both served in the military and they volunteered.
		I hope we bring back the draft to get a lot of this aggression in these streets in order with these youth and let them know how independence is really in our country.
		And it is so precious.
		And we're losing it if we don't look.
		But God bless America and everybody celebrate and just have a wonderful day.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Berta in Forest Lake, Minnesota, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi, Mimi.
		I'm struggling today.
		It was my niece and her husband and their dog that got killed for being a civil servant.
		And I listened to all these people, and I'm just so sad of what we've become as a country.
		People need to wake up for what's going on.
		Please keep your religious feelings out of our government.
		Keep your guns off our civil servants.
		I've been told I'm brainwashed and disillusioned, and that guns didn't kill Melissa, Mark, and Gilbert.
		I just can't stand where we've been.
		I know people that know Pete Hegset.
		He's a service to Minnesota, to this country.
		So is Trump.
		Anybody that can sell everything, it's just, I'm so sad that we have lost a family member, and everybody thinks this is okay.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Sorry, how are you related to the Minnesota lawmaker?
unidentified		She was my husband's niece.
		And I can't sleep.
		The whole family is a mess.
		And people just go on and think it's okay.
		And I've been told I'm disillusional and brainwashed.
		She got killed because of hateful politics.
		Our lives will never, never be the same.
		I have a sign out on my driveway right now for Mark, Melissa, and their dog Gilbert with flowers on it.
		And people are telling me I'm disillusional and that guns didn't kill them.
		So I'm just shaking right now of what we've become.
		And I'd also ask, could you please ask these people their ages?
		I'd love to know their ages because people just need to wake up.
		Stop the hate.
		Just please stop.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Berta.
		And our condolences for your loss.
		Here's the latest on that story from PBS.org.
		A man accused of killing former Minnesota House Speaker due back in court after delay.
		It says the man charged with killing former Minnesota House Speaker Melissa Hortman and her husband and wounding a state senator and his wife is due back in federal court Thursday.
		That was yesterday for a hearing that was put on hold after his lawyer said his client had been unable to sleep while on suicide watch.
		You can read the rest of that at PBS.org.
		This is Liz Marlton, New Jersey.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning and happy Independence Day.
		We have a lot to be thankful for as Americans.
		And my ancestors date back to the early 1600s and many of them fought in the Revolution.
		But coming after the lady from Minnesota's call, we do have the ability to do better.
		And we're not doing it.
		We're allowing guns to roll.
		Condolences on her loss.
		And yes, her life will never be the same.
		And that is a sad reality when we allow too many guns in too many hands.
		This is not what our ancestors thought they were fighting for in the Revolution.
		And we got a president that's constantly dividing the public and spreading hate.
		I refer to him carrying a bucket of hate that he keeps slapping on the people.
		And he's done it repetitively for almost 10 years now.
		And that's why we're seeing such changes in America.
		He's not making America great again.
		He's making America into something we've never been.
		The gentleman from Maine who mentioned the man being deported and being punched in the head, laying controls on the pavement with the three Marine sons that he raised here, that should never be happening.
		Those men, all of them, three or four of them, need to be fired immediately.
		That is not the way to do deportations.
		It's not American.
		That's Gestapo-type tactics.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And some news for you.
		This is from NBC News.
		Supreme Court paves the way for Trump to send migrants to South Sudan.
		Justice Department had sought clarification of a recent Supreme Court decision that cleared the path for the administration to quickly deport immigrants to, quote, third countries.
		That's at nbcnews.com.
		And this is Dylan in Sturgis, South Dakota, Republican.
		Good morning, Dylan.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Say, I think the 4th of July is for everybody to celebrate and not to be bummers.
		I'm a Vietnam vet.
		I was over there during cat, and I've seen a lot.
		And I'm not far away from Mount Rushmore.
		I go up there periodically.
		And I just want to say that everybody needs to get a grip.
		And these youngsters nowadays are worse than the hippies were when we got back.
		We didn't get a welcome back.
		We got bottles of urine thrown at us and everything else when we got off the Freedom Birds.
		So just have a wonderful day, everybody.
		And calm down because Trump, because Trump is trying to do the best that he can with what he got handed.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Dylan.
		Here's Thomas, Missouri, Independent Line.
		What does Independence Day mean to you, Thomas?
unidentified		Oh, the Independence Day is a wonderful thing for our country.
		It celebrates freedom.
		A lot of people have died for our country.
		And I've got a little respect for Trump for putting our borders up.
		That's a good thing.
		Helping our country be a better thing.
		But I'm disabled.
		I can't walk.
		And I have cancer.
		And I am in a home.
		Trump, Mr. Trump, what's this going to do?
		Am I going to die under a bridge?
		I hope not.
		God bless America.
		And I need a new wheelchair.
		Thank you very much.
		God bless America.
		This is a good country we live in.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Ed in Mount Airy, Maryland, Democrat.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Ed.
unidentified		Thank you.
		Happy Independence Day.
		And in regards to your question, I think most Americans see America as a place of unity, one of many cultures and peoples that have come from many places, even in the earliest days, working together for a common good and so different than many other countries where you're not suppressed, where you're not exploited, where you have opportunities, which is what we all want.
		And this business of divisiveness and hatred is an old political ploy that goes back to the earliest days, the first tribes when the Vikings first got started in the origins of history of civilization there.
		And it's been by many different country formations.
		We shouldn't play into this game of divisiveness.
		Let's pull the get-pull it together and enjoy our country and let it be in all the wonderful place that it is that empowers everybody and makes us happy and to see our neighbors and to enjoy our country and know that we do things better and differently the rest of the world.
		So Independence Day means just what it stands for, an opportunity to be the country that we want to be.
		Thank you very much.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And here's Saeed in Dermot, Arkansas, Independent Line.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning and happy Independence Day.
		For me, it means it's a time of serious reflection.
		When you think about the American Revolution and why it was fought and where we are today and seems to be heading towards that again.
		Not in terms of this all-out revolution, but the fact that the ideals which this country was founded upon are being trampled upon completely by those who are in power to represent us, to lead us to those ideas, and yet they're leading us away from those ideas.
		I think it's time for people of common interest in terms of looking for the unity of the country and bringing people together rather than dividing people to come together and stop all this tribalism of DNR and all this kind of thing.
		It's just madness and it's time out for it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And this 4th of July weekend is the kickoff of an 18-month project here at C-SPAN as we prepare for the nation's 250th birthday next year.
		So coming up as part of that program, we'll take you live to the Museum of the American Revolution in Philadelphia.
		We'll talk with the museum's president and CEO, Scott Stevenson, about a special exhibit of historic Revolutionary War flags and take your calls on that era in American history.
		But first, here's a look at Philadelphia's Independence Hall from a tour organized by the museum's Tyler Putman.
unidentified		So if you were standing here, let's say on July 1st, 1776, you would not have known what was happening next.
		You would have known that dozens of delegates of the Second Continental Congress, drawn from across theoretically the whole continent, but the 13 British colonies, were meeting here to debate what they would do within the British Empire.
		You probably also would have heard rumors and news from across all of those colonies of recent events.
		Gunshots at Lexington and Concord on April 19th, the Battle of Bunker Hill in Boston in June, the siege of the British Army, the King's troops, by some sort of new revolutionary army leading up to those days.
		What was also happening all over those colonies is local groups of people were declaring and voting for independence.
		So what happened here, what eventually emerges from this building as the certified Declaration of Independence on July 4th, was based on a grassroots movement.
		That doesn't mean that everyone agreed.
		Plenty of people, probably even a majority of Americans, thought that that was a huge mistake.
		Even someone like John Dickinson, a congressperson from Delaware, is actively advocating, writing, agitating for American liberties before July of 1776, but he absents himself from the vote because he can't actually vote for that final, what someone called, leap in the dark towards independence.
		What does he do instead?
		He leaves Congress and joins George Washington's army.
		So imagine someone who could do everything else, who could agitate for American liberties, who could fight against the king's troops, but still felt that independence was too much of a jump.
		So the move towards independence, the decisions and the conversations that happen in these halls, is not an easy, simple process.
		The motion has to be introduced.
		Ideally, they want it to be a unanimous vote.
		So there's a lot of backroom dealings and conversations happening in places like City Tavern to get them to the point where they can finally pass the resolution for independence.
		Now, if you've seen the Declaration of Independence, that beautiful, engrossed, cursive version in the National Archives, you've noticed that it's signed by dozens of those delegates.
		There was no single dramatic moment where everyone signed the Declaration.
		Those signatures came in almost for a year as those people came and went.
		They returned, they signed this document that only really in hindsight came to have the importance that we invest in it.
		When they passed it, they knew it was revolutionary.
		They knew this was a pivotal decision.
		But when you read the notes of that Congress, it's in the midst of all sorts of other everyday business.
		How do we just supply the Army in Boston?
		George Washington has just been dispatched to become their commander.
		Are they going to accept a Virginian commanding mostly New England troops?
		So the Declaration of Independence that emerges from this building, a functional government document, revolutionary in its global impact.
		You might be looking at this building and wondering, does it look like it did in the 1700s?
		There are elements of this building that are almost identical, that have been carefully restored.
		But of course, there was no statue of George Washington in front of this building when he was here in the 1770s.
		We're standing in the midst of Independence Park.
kevin kiley ▲ ● ▼		You can see just a short distance from me, a two-story glass building.
unidentified		You can look into it and see the famous Liberty Bell.
		If you were here in 1776, that bell would have been up in that cupola of that building.
		It was a typical government bell.
		It had a functional purpose, to call people to order, to announce things.
		It was only after the Revolutionary War, almost a century afterwards, that that bell became an American symbol.
		It was taken around the country, displayed, used in civil activism.
		So now the bell that's up in that tower is actually from 1876, the 100th anniversary of the United States.
		And the original bell that was there that was carefully removed from the city when the British arrived so that it couldn't be used to make cannons, returned to Independence Hall, is separately on display in a different visitor center.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Wednesday, we are in Philadelphia for a look into the founding of our country as we kick off an 18-month initiative here at C-SPAN commemorating America's 250th birthday.
		We're joined now by Scott Stevenson, President and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution.
		He joins us from Philadelphia.
		Thanks for being with us.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's so great to be here, Mimi.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		So remind us of what actually happened on the 4th of July in 1776.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so the 4th of July was the date that the Second Continental Congress adopted and issued the Declaration of Independence, which was a document that had been preparing by the Committee of Five, principally authored by Thomas Jefferson, to explain to the world the action that Congress had actually taken two days earlier,
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		the 2nd of July 1776, of declaring the 13 United Colonies to be free and independent states, birthing the United States of America.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And you're in Philadelphia.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What's the level of excitement there on this 4th of July?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Oh, it's amazing.
		You know, I live within walking distance of the museum, which is located at 3rd and Chestnut Streets, so just two blocks from Independence Hall.
		And Philadelphia is preparing for a big parade today, as we do every year on the 4th of July.
		People are beginning to gather along Chestnut Street and throughout the city.
		There's parades and floats that are sort of staged along the route, getting ready to celebrate the 249th anniversary of American independence.
		And I met Miss Pennsylvania on the way in, so it's been a great day already.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And remind us of the importance of Philadelphia to the independence of the country.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		So Philadelphia was a best way to think of it as the sort of headquarters of the American Revolution.
		This was the place where delegates from the colonies came together even before the outbreak of the Revolutionary War in 1774.
		Directly across the street from where I'm sitting at the Museum of the American Revolution is Carpenter's Hall, which was the location of the first Continental Congress that met in the early fall of 1774 to try to come up with a coordinated colonial response to acts that the British Parliament had taken in response to the dumping of the tea in Boston Harbor in December of 1773.
		And so Congress first met here.
		This is the place where a lot of that founding generation, the leadership, first met one another.
		It's the first time John Adams laid eyes on George Washington, for instance.
		And then, of course, Congress issued an appeal to the king to try to redress these grievances.
		Those delegates went home.
		All of the colonies were encouraged to try to come together in a continental association to have a non-importation agreement, so to try to prevent any British goods from coming in.
		So it was the kind of homespun by American movement, and to form voluntary military units or militia units in case it came to blows the following spring.
		When Congress comes back together, and this time they've moved to the Pennsylvania State House, which will only later become known as Independence Hall, they arrive in Philadelphia to the news that fighting has actually broken out at Lexington and Concord, and the war is on.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And why Philadelphia specifically?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Why not anywhere else in the country where these events are meetings taking place?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Well, cheese steaks, obviously.
		But in all seriousness, Philadelphia is the largest port in British North America.
		It's one of the largest English-speaking cities actually in the world at this point.
		It is centrally located, and so for delegates who are traveling as far north as New Hampshire and New England and as far south as the Carolinas and Georgia, this is kind of an easily accessible central location.
		You know, large city, it has accommodations, it has taverns, it has private homes, places for delegates to stay, and for coordinating what rapidly became a war against the most powerful military force on the planet at the time, Great Britain, it was a perfect cockpit of revolution, a headquarters for revolution.
		It would essentially be the capital of the new United States all through that eight-year protracted conflict of the Revolutionary War.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And Scott, what do you think about how we remember the American Revolution, the importance of that to today and how we see our country today?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, this is such an important point and something that the museum, and you know, we're a relatively young institution.
		We just opened on April 19th of 2017, but we've had almost 2 million visitors through the museum since then.
		And one of the most important points that we try to convey to our visitors is to think about and the difference between the war, that's the Revolutionary War, which we sometimes use American Revolution as shorthand to mean the Revolutionary War, which was an eight-year conflict that resulted in the independence of the United States.
		And the sense that many of the founders used when they talked about the American Revolution, it's encapsulated best in a quote from a Philadelphian, Dr. Benjamin Rush, who was a signer of the Declaration of Independence, a prominent physician here in Philadelphia, did military service during the Revolutionary War.
		And on the eve of the Constitutional Convention, so 11 years after the Declaration of Independence, he wrote a pamphlet addressed to the American people.
		And he said, the American War is over, meaning the Revolutionary War, but this is not the case with the American Revolution.
		Only the first act of the great drama is over.
		And what he meant by that is if you think about the American Revolution as an ongoing experiment in liberty, equality, and self-government, Something that is set in motion during the Revolutionary War, with the Declaration of Independence in 1776, where we announced to the world that this is a nation that believes in liberty and equality and natural rights, that we will form republican governments where the people are sovereign rather than a king.
		That is a process that began in 1776 but is ongoing and unfinished.
		And I think for the moment that we're in, where we can feel very divided politically, our hope here at the museum is that going back to that founding principle, going back to that idea that even the founders themselves did not believe they had created something finished and perfect in 1776,
		in 1783, in 1787, that they knew that this was going to be an ongoing experiment and it required an active, engaged citizenry who would, each generation, would dedicate themselves to trying to form a more perfect union.
		And that's the journey that we're all on together still as we're looking forward to America's 250th anniversary a year from today.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And you can join our conversation if you've got a question about the history of the American Revolution and our guest Scott Stevenson.
		You can give us a call.
		Our lines are regional.
		So if you're in the Eastern or Central time zones, call us on 202-748-8000.
		If you're in Mountain or Pacific, it's 202-748-8001.
		You can also use our line for texting, and that's 202-748-8003.
		So, Scott, you are in the Patriots Gallery at the Museum of the American Revolution.
		The museum is holding an exhibit called Banners of Liberty.
		Tell us a little bit about that.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I wonder if you can see me shaking here because I am sitting in a room where half of the surviving American military flags from the Revolutionary War are installed on the walls around me.
		Only about 30 of these incredibly rare banners of liberty, as we call them, have survived from the hundreds and hundreds that were made and flown during the Revolutionary War.
		And for this summer until August 10th, the museum has this exhibition, Banners of Liberty, on display.
		And so half of those surviving flags are in this room with me.
		No one has seen this many American military flags together since the end of the Revolutionary War.
		So I hope those who are able to come to Philadelphia can make it here.
		But we actually have a digital version, an online exhibit that you can go to the museum's website, which is amrevmuseum.org.
		Or if you're so inclined and you like catalogs, we have this wonderful catalog that we have produced that's available on our website, and that has images and historical information about all of these flags.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Well, Scott, tell us about the importance of flags during the Revolution.
		What were they, what was their importance?
		What did they convey?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Sure, yeah, it's a little, you know, because flags are only relegated to sort of a ceremonial purpose on the battlefield today, we don't necessarily think about them in their original utilitarian use in the period.
		So flags were an important rallying point.
		They were a way for troops to orient themselves on the battlefield.
		This was still an era of what military historians and strategists refer to as linear warfare.
		So large blocks of soldiers who were trained to load and fire in unison.
		And that was partly driven by the technology of the period.
		Most of these troops are armed with smooth bore weapons that are relatively inaccurate at great distance.
		So the troops were trained to load, fire, and maneuver together and to fire in disciplined volleys.
		Think of that as like a large shotgun going off on the battlefield.
		And so it's very important for soldiers using those linear tactics to be able to remain in line, to maneuver on the battlefield together.
		And so flags pay a really important way for soldiers to have a rallying point, something to orient their formations on.
		Flags were a way to symbolize and signify the national origin of the troops so that both friend and foe could distinguish them, as well as the regiment or a particular sub-unit of a regiment that was supposed to stay together.
		And so most of the flags that are around me here were used on the battlefield.
		They were designed for one of those purposes.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Well, let's take one as an example.
		This is the Pennsylvania Associators flag.
		It's from 1775 and it was known as the Monmouth flag.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Right, so this is on loan to us from the Monmouth County Historical Association, which is just across the river over in northern New Jersey from Philadelphia.
		And so we're really grateful for them entrusting us with the loan of it for a couple of months.
		And it's one of my favorite flags because it can be confusing for people at first because you'll, of course, recognize what we would refer to as the Union Jack or the Union, the British Union, in the canton, which is that upper quadrant of the flag.
		And this flag was known as the Monmouth flag because when it was donated in the 19th century, Americans had really forgotten about the first year of the Revolutionary War.
		When the colonists came together here in Philadelphia, First and Second Continental Congress, really for the year preceding the Declaration of Independence, they were fighting to restore or protect their rights that they saw themselves being inheritors of as English subjects.
		And so that union canton was a symbol that they were loyal to the king and that they were fighting for the rights that they thought they deserved as English subjects, British subjects.
		And so this is a flag almost certainly made in the first months of the Revolutionary War.
		By the 19th century, we'd sort of forgotten that story.
		And so if you saw a flag that had been descended in a family and it had a symbol like this, oh, that must be a British flag.
		So actually, for a long time, there was a thought that this was a British flag that had been captured at the Battle of Monmouth in 1778.
		A lot of the curatorial research that we've done and the provenance work that we do, which is looking at how it tracks down and traces down and passes down through families, we were able to find the original owner of that flag and establish that he, in fact, was a Pennsylvania militia officer.
		And this matches other flags that have survived with that same provenance.
		What's great about it is, and it may be hard to make out on screen, but maybe you can see the pattern in the red cross of St. George in that canton.
		And if you look really closely, it's a figure damask fabric.
		That's a furnishing fabric.
		So you would normally see that on upholstered furniture or maybe bed hangings or curtains.
		And what I love about that is that's, of course, Americans, they had non-importation, right, for the whole six or eight months beforehand.
		So they had not been importing fabrics from overseas.
		And so these are merchants who are scrambling around trying to make flags using the textiles that are available to them.
		And that is a flag that certainly shows that scrappy Yankee ingenuity to try to prepare for the military.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to some callers.
		Scott is on the line from Roseville, California.
		Good morning, Scott.
		You're on with Scott Stevenson.
unidentified		God bless you all, everybody in the United States, all of America.
		How proud we should be that Italia and Europe, the UK, Spain, we are all a part of that.
		How great we are as a nation.
		To hell with the other nations is something that MAGA is trying to do right now.
		It's a shame that we forget our roots and what we did to the Native Americans and the Mexicans.
		Connor, California, California was Mexico before we came along.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Scott Stevenson, comment on that?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, I think, Scott, you raise a lot of important historical facts that we have to remember as Americans.
		I think, you know, we cannot ever express enough the indebtedness that we have, for instance, to France.
		It is impossible to imagine American independence being secured, certainly on the timeline that we were able to secure our independence in the Treaty of Paris in 1783 without the assistance, not just of French ships and money and munitions, the support of the French crown, but all those soldiers and volunteers who came here, people like the young Marquis de Lafayette,
		still a teenager when he sailed to America because he was so inspired by the experiment that Americans were launching in Republican government, government by the people.
		And so it's absolutely important to remember all of American history.
		At the museum here, you know, we're dedicated, we say we are dedicated to telling the history of America, wartz and all.
		So we try to tell a very honest story that is also very hopeful, uplifting, and hopefully ultimately unifying as a people.
		So your comments resonate with me, Scott.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Don in Bakersfield, California.
		Good morning, Don.
		You're on.
unidentified		Yes.
		I have a question for Scott.
		I recently watched the first part of Sitting Bull on the History Channel, and what came to me is kind of a theory maybe, or what I believe the truth is, is that when Lincoln allowed for homesteading, a lot of people moved west.
		He wanted to conquer more of the United States or America during the time when the Civil War was happening.
kurt nimmo ▲ ● ▼		And so also some soldiers went because people were getting, the Indians were trying to keep their land and maintain the buffalo, as we all see and know from history.
unidentified		But during that time, who fought in the Civil War?
		And so my question is to you, Scott.
		While that was going on and the Civil War was happening, I believe they had to have numbers and soldiers and guns were put in the hand of slaves.
		And so they were also fighting for the Union.
		Lincoln ultimately felt compelled to free the slaves because one of the things in that program is that the biggest mass hanging that ever took place under Lincoln was 28 Indians were hung at one time.
		So I want to know if, go ahead.
		Yep.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Scott.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I think you raise a really important point is that those events that you're talking about, of course, taking place almost a century after the Revolutionary War, in many ways are continuing processes that we can see in the 1770s during the Revolutionary War.
		The precedent of enlisting enslaved people of African descent was practiced by both sides.
		Initially, of course, Washington's army, when he takes command of the New England troops that are encircling British-held Boston in 1775, Congress initially demanded that all soldiers of African descent, both free and enslaved, who were serving in those forces, be discharged.
		And those men actually stepped forward and protested and demanded that they be given an opportunity to stand alongside soldiers of European descent, that they were committed to the cause of liberty as well.
		And ultimately, Washington relents.
		And by the end of the Revolutionary War, at least 8,000 soldiers of African descent and some of Native American descent or of mixed ancestry had served in the Continental Army.
		And those numbers almost certainly are lower than reality.
		It's just that the nature of the records makes it very difficult to look at the full extent of that service.
		And many of those men, one of them at the time, a young teenage boy named James Forton, who lived actually half a block from where I'm sitting here at 3rd and Chestnut Street in Philadelphia.
		He was born to a free black family.
		When he was nine years old, he was at the State House Yard at Independence Hall when he heard the Declaration of Independence read for the first time.
		And he heard the words, all men are created equal.
		When he was 14 years old, he served aboard a privateer ship, a Navy ship that sailed right out of here in Philadelphia.
		So at age 14, he was a combat veteran.
		At age 15, he was not only a combat veteran, he was a prisoner of war who chose imprisonment on a British prison ship in Wallabout Bay outside of New York rather than enlist in the British Navy, someone who was committed to the cause of American liberty.
		So it's very important to remember those patriots of color who were part of the formation of the United States from the very beginning.
		And you also allude to the very tragic story of Native Americans' involvement with the new American Republic.
		Of course, ultimately, there were Native nations that served on both sides of the conflict as they tried to preserve their sovereignty and independence.
		And here at the museum, we honor the Oneida Indian Nation located in central New York now, who have been very involved with the museum for years.
		They were one of America's first allies, splitting with the rest of the Haudenosaunee or Iroquois Confederacy to support American independence and the Continental Congress.
		But ultimately, a very tragic story about the loss of their lands gradually through the 19th century and 20th century.
		So we can't, we really can't do enough to make sure that all of the stories, both positive and negative, that have led us to the moment that we're at as a nation are told and remembered.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Scott, I wonder how unified the colonists were in the lead-up and during the American Revolutionary War on the desire to break from the British crown.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		What were normal day-to-day people thinking about all this?
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		It was an incredibly contentious moment, not just, as you allude, not just in Congress itself.
		And there was tremendous debate that took place over the course, really beginning in 1775.
		I mean, people like John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, sort of entered Congress already convinced that independence was certainly inevitable.
		And it was just really a question of the timing of that.
		Others really were holdouts till the very end.
		There were some, like John Dickinson, who ultimately abstained from voting and said, you know, I can't support this vote.
		But then ultimately when the vote was taken and we declared independence, said okay, and they went and put on a uniform.
		And that was certainly the case with people in taverns, in churches, in homes.
		The American people is really where the source of that independence movement began.
		And it's something we explore in the museum here.
		The late Pauline Mayer, who was a historian at MIT, wrote a great book called American Scripture about the Declaration of Independence.
		And one of the things that she uncovered was that there were more than 40 local declarations of independence in communities from New England all through the South before Congress declares independence in July of 1776.
		And so it sort of allowed us to see this as a revolutionary movement, a conversation among the American people.
		We tend to think of it as something that everyone must have been unanimous about, but it was absolutely not.
		It was a dangerous, dangerous step.
		I think we should all reflect on what we would have done if we had been in those uncertain times.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, we'll take a little break here and we will have a short tour from Tyler Putman.
		He's the manager for gallery interpretation at the Museum of American Revolution.
		Take a look.
unidentified		So I'm standing on the porch of City Tavern.
		This is a reconstructed building, but it's meticulously detailed to look like a real building that was on this site right here on 2nd Street.
		And it was completed in 1773.
		So when the Revolutionary War broke out, this would have been a brand new building.
		It was a high-end establishment.
		This is not a dive bar or a cheap place.
		This is where you bring your parents when they come to town.
		It's when the Continental Congress meets in the city.
		This is the place you want to eat, drink, stay, and make plans.
		And it was in taverns like this that the American Revolution in Philadelphia was really born because there weren't a lot of other places to gather or meet or socialize informally.
		So in little coffee houses, in those dive bars, and in big, fine dining establishments like City Tavern, the people we've heard of, the people we haven't heard of, would have been reading the newspapers, comparing notes about current events, and debating what they would do as tensions within the British Empire arose.
		We're right here at the corner of 2nd and Walnut Street.
		And while we're surrounded by modern buildings and high rises, you can imagine this in the 18th century as a densely populated neighborhood, just about a block and a half from the city's docks.
richard spencer ▲ ● ▼		And it's facing Dock Creek or Dock Street, an open waterway in the 1770s that's now covered in cobblestones.
unidentified		So you could have also brought cargo or people right up close to City Tavern, unloaded, had a nice lamb dinner, talked about politics, and then decided what you were going to do next as the American Revolution was growing.
		Imagine yourself in a room where everyone's drinking fine Madeira wine, smoking Virginia tobacco, and having big thoughts, right?
		So you're reading newspapers that are giving you reports about the Stamp Act, political debates in Parliament, news from Georgia and Nova Scotia.
		It only takes about a month for news to get from Europe to Philadelphia.
		So you're pretty up to date on fashion, politics, parliamentary debates, and you could talk about any of that.
		But a lot of the conversations that happened here would have been like the conversations that happen today in restaurants.
		How are your kids doing in school?
		Is your business doing well?
		Sometimes you talk about big world-changing ideas.
		Sometimes you talk about what are you going to order for dessert.
		City Tavern is a reconstruction.
		It's owned by the National Park Service.
		It's not in operation now.
		Formally, some folks watching might have visited it when it was an operating restaurant.
		But you can at least appreciate its architectural glory and what it might have seen in the 1770s.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		And we are back with Scott Stevenson.
		He's president and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution on this Independence Day.
		And we are taking your calls until the end of the program, which is at 10 Eastern.
		Here's Alexis in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan.
		Good morning, Alexis.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I just want to say that unfortunately, I'm very pessimistic about this country.
		And I heard the response that the guest gave to the first caller saying, you know, that the purpose of the museum is to be hopeful and prideful and all that.
		But I just feel like, yeah, I think we're seeing the end days and 250 may be the end of the story for this country.
		The point I want to make is kind of an anthropological and sociological point.
		And that is my understanding of how the Revolutionary War came about is, you know, folks along the eastern seaboard, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, eventually D.C., and then the southern part, didn't like being governed by the, you know, King George, who lived, you know, what, 3,200 miles away or something in London.
		And I guess that's my point, is the geographical distance.
		I mean, if you look at Juneau, Alaska, or even Seattle or Honolulu, we're talking 4,000 or more miles away.
		And I just think that human beings are meant to live in smaller, more tight-knit societies.
		And I can understand why people who live in remote rural areas of this country, let's say in Idaho or Utah or Montana or something, or even Alaska, do not feel represented by folks in Washington, D.C. over 3,000 miles away.
		And I'd like to hear what your guest has to say about the geographical distance of those who are governing.
		Got it.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, Alexa, this is a really important point that goes right to the anxiety that the founders had.
		And by founders, I mean not just the people in Independence Hall, but people throughout American society that founding generation had.
		You know, they were keen students of history.
		And the model that they looked toward was, of course, ancient Rome, the history of republics.
		So when they were creating these Republican, 13 Republican forms of government, you know, different forms of government, but all based as republics where the people were going to be sovereign, they were anxious about the very thing that you raise here.
		Because their reading of history is that republics, first of all, were incredibly fragile.
		And that when they had any kind of resonance, when they had been successful at all, the theory was that they could only work if they were small and local and homogeneous.
		And of course, America was an incredibly diverse and geographically enormous place, even before it began expanding across the continent.
		And so all of the people in Europe, around the world who were looking at this experiment, were, I am sure, taking bats about how long it was going to take before the United States collapsed into something else.
		And it was either going to be dominated by monarchies again or fall into some kind of anarchy.
		So the anxiety that is absolutely present in many parts of America today that you express is not something new.
		You are not experiencing something that has not been around for a quarter millennium.
		It was there from the very beginning of the nation.
		And remember that when we are students of history, and this is why it is so critical that we do a better job of teaching students, K through 12 students, and just we as citizens study history, I think that it can be reassuring to us to know that there have been many, many moments of fear and pessimism about whether the nation would be able to survive.
		We have been through periods of mass immigration.
		We have been through periods where we are concerned about how we're going to survive as a nation.
		Great civil strife.
		Remember, a civil war that was fought.
		And so to me, the importance of the moment is to, A, put that in context, to have the, that's something that museums, educational institutions, teachers can do, is to give us that sort of historical context for what we're feeling today.
		And ultimately, this is an experiment in liberty, equality, and self-government.
		And it has been an incredible inspiration for people around the world for 250 years.
		It's a theme that we're exploring in a special exhibition that will open this fall in October of 2025 and run through 2027 called The Declaration's Journey, where we will look at 250 years of how the Declaration of Independence was communicated around the world and the response of peoples around the world, the more than 100 nations that have issued their own declarations of independence and statements of human rights that are inspired by the nation.
		So I think that while I want to acknowledge the concern that you are feeling, the response needs to be for us to muscle through.
		We need to look across the aisle at people who we think we don't have anything in common with and have a dialogue with them, see them, hear what they're saying.
		Because I think one of the things that you will find is that the vast majority of Americans actually believe in America.
		They believe in equality.
		They believe in liberty.
		They sometimes have different diagnoses of the problems.
		And the only way to resolve that, because we do not have a king, right?
		We are the sovereign people.
		And so in terms of feeling disconnected from Washington, remember we're represented by people who are from our communities, who we elect through the democratic process, and we send them there to represent us.
		And so I think it was Winston Churchill who once said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the other ones that have ever been tried.
		And so I hope that you'll buck up, double down on this incredible 250-year-old project of ours, and let's try to form that more perfect union.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Scott, let's talk about another flag in your exhibit.
		This is the Pennsylvania militia flag.
		So this is from 1777.
		Tell us about this one.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So this is sort of a large blue field and it has alternating stripes representing the 13 states.
		Sorry, it's a large red field.
		And what's interesting, it'll be recognizable to you because you'll see it looks sort of like the American flag that we're familiar with, the stars and stripes, but it doesn't have the blue field in the background.
		This is a flag actually made not too far, again, from Philadelphia in Chester County, Pennsylvania, for a militia unit.
		And it's probably the earliest surviving flag that has a depiction of what will become known as the American flag, the stars and stripes.
		It was flown at the Battle of Brandywine in 1777, actually September 11th, ironically, of 1777, and descended in a family in Chester County until it was eventually donated to Independence National Historical Park, so the National Park Service custodians of Independence Hall.
		But it's really on display for the first time publicly in the Banners of Liberty exhibition here at the museum.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's James.
		He's calling from Collins, Mississippi.
		Good morning, James.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
unidentified		Happy 4th of July, sir.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		To you as well.
unidentified		So I wanted to ask you, okay, pertaining to this subject that we're on now, the Museum, the Museum of American Revolution, I wanted to ask you the connection between 1883, June 10th,
		and proceed from this topic you own to there with African Americans of slavery descent.
		I wanted to ask you a question because Mitch McConnell came on TV and several other Republicans and said that, and I put all of it together.
		I don't try to separate the wheat from the tear.
		That's not up to me.
		But what I'm saying is, I love this country.
		I love America.
		I love the 4th of July.
		As an African American of slavery descent living in the state of Mississippi in a small town in Collin, Mississippi, I wanted to ask you this question: Should African Americans and the white people that died that was white European people died to help African Americans of slavery descent?
		They were hung, they were beaten.
		And when Abraham Lincoln signed that whatever it was, a document for African Americans to be free and to have and to receive restitutions, that applied to all people, to me, especially white people that had died and fought.
		And now Mitch McConnell say over 200 years, that was over 150 years ago.
		So how is it that the Americans can say they're great, but yet it's still how can you be great when you don't clear that problem?
		Why is it that all right, James?
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's let's get a response.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Scott.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Sure, yeah.
		I mean, we've had a couple callers now sort of talking about the Civil War, the aftermath of the Civil War.
		And the important point here is that this is all working out issues that were not resolved by the founding generation, which they themselves knew, that they were not ultimately, you know, they recognized and debated how can a nation founded with ideals about liberty and equality have human enslavement, you know, existing simultaneously.
		And the answer was, you know, that it was a great hypocrisy that they recognized.
		And they ultimately failed to resolve that issue during their lifetimes.
		And it would take a long period of an abolition movement, the Civil War, the civil rights movement.
		And we're still working out all of the issues that are at the very core of our founding, those contradictions of American slavery, American freedom.
		And so it's incredibly important to, again, when you think about the American Revolution, not as something that took place long ago and was over, and therefore we judge the American Revolution by what it achieved or did not achieve in 1783 or 1787, but as this ongoing experiment, this project that continues.
		That quest to make sure that the words, all men are created equal, apply to all people, and that we're mindful of the suffering that has taken place over generations and the legacy of that process is still with us today.
		It's the most important work we can do as Americans.
		And sometimes that can be discomforting, of course.
		And it's important for us to have the maturity and confidence as a nation to recognize the warts as well as the incredible achievements of this great American achievement.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Jesse's joining us from Tucson, Arizona.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning, Jesse.
unidentified		Good morning, Mimi.
		Good morning, Scott.
		I'm a social studies teacher, so I am just so proud of today.
		I wrote this down, so I'm going to be very quick.
		Ultimately, today shows the power of writing to express yourself and to create change.
		And, you know, I'm an English teacher.
		I just preach that like everybody.
		I'm so proud of Deb Holland from Albuquerque, New Mexico.
		I think she's just a true example of our current progress as a nation in terms of helping women become empowered, helping Native Americans become empowered.
		I recommend everyone go to your public library and find a great book to read.
		Ben Franklin, come on, guys.
		I preach to everyone: be patient and be brave.
		I thank God for being born in a country with the values of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
		And I asked this question, it's kind of a rhetorical question I like asking: do you think Gandhi would have been able to do what he did?
		Or do you think he was inspired by the people who created our nation?
		Just a question.
		And I'll just say I started a business, pencilpals.com, and we have red and blue coloring pens.
		Consider buying them to express your patriotism.
		Have a great day, everyone.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right, Jesse.
		And Scott, he did mention Benjamin Franklin.
		So I wanted to show one more stop on our little tour by Tyler Putman talking about Ben Franklin.
		Here it is.
unidentified		We're standing in an area called Franklin's Court, a court like a courtyard.
		The buildings behind me are what you would imagine Ben Franklin using as a print shop before the Revolutionary War.
		If you've heard of one Philadelphian from the Revolutionary era, it's Benjamin Franklin.
		He arrives here from Boston as a young man, starts up a printing business, becomes one of the most notable figures.
		He's in Independence Hall.
		He's at the Constitutional Convention.
		His houses don't survive.
		Archaeologists in the 1960s excavated this property.
		They found the foundations, parts of those buildings, but they didn't know what the buildings looked like.
		There's no drawings or depictions of Franklin's houses.
		So rather than build them speculatively, they built these incredible ghost structures to allow you to imagine this as it would have been during Franklin's lifetime.
		But Benjamin Franklin actually wasn't here for most of the Revolutionary War.
		He was away in France as a delegate, as a representative of the new American government.
		So you can imagine this area being used more actively by his servants, by his wife, Deborah.
		And imagine the British Army arriving here in the fall of 1777, capturing the city of Philadelphia, or maybe liberating it, depending on your perspective.
		Plenty of people thought that was the return of law and order.
		The occupants of the house were now within, then, weren't the Franklin family.
		They were British officers.
		One of those officers was John Andre.
		You might not have heard of John Andre, but I bet you've heard of his collaborator, Benedict Arnold.
		It's Andre who's the British contact for Benedict Arnold, his liaison in what becomes the Arnold Treason.
		But my favorite part of all of Franklin Court isn't necessarily those stories or these ghost structures.
		It's what you can see through glass panels.
		Archaeologists have left us viewing areas.
		And if we look down into this one, we see an unremarkable brick-line shaft in the ground.
		This is Benjamin Franklin's 1787 toilet.
		Benjamin Franklin is a fascinating character.
		He's really a quintessential American of the 18th century.
		His lifespan is most of the 18th century.
		He grows up and he becomes a printer.
		And imagine how important printing was the American Revolution.
		If you're getting any news at all, it's most likely from a newspaper.
		Those come out in Philadelphia maybe three times a week.
		And in the two days between each of those issuances, someone has to set the lead type into little sticks, put it into the press, ink those letters, press into the paper, let that dry to get you the news.
		So it's actually amazing how quickly they could do that, how quickly they could get news from around the world.
		Franklin also operated the city's post office.
		So he has the first access pretty shamelessly to reading letters and other materials coming from around the world, integrating those into his newspaper.
		And right here in Franklin Court, you can imagine him doing the experiments he became famous for, having the correspondences.
		He was critical in the founding of important organizations in the city, the first public hospital in the United States, early educational institutions.
		It was Benjamin Franklin who emerged from Independence Hall at the end of the Constitutional Convention in 1787.
		And so the story goes.
		Someone asked him, Mr. Franklin, what kind of government have you given us?
		And he said, a republic, madam, if you can keep it.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Scott Stevenson, I want to go back to Jesse's question about the American Revolution inspiring, possibly inspiring other movements around the world, including Gandhi's in India.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		And I referenced earlier an upcoming special exhibition that will open in October here at the Museum of the American Revolution and will run through 2026.
		And it's called the Declaration's Journey.
		And it actually takes up exactly the question that Jesse asked, which is what has the importance and influence of the Declaration of Independence been for the nations around the world?
		And the answer, of course, is it has been incredibly influential, both through American history, inspiring the expansion of rights, rights movements, inspiring people like Frederick Douglass, like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, all the way through to 20th century civil rights movements, but also nations around the world, the French Revolution, the Irish, the first attempt to create an Irish Republic in 1798, the Haitian Revolution,
		the first republic created by formerly enslaved people that was inspired again by the events of the Atlantic revolutions that were sparked by America.
		And that continued all the way through to the 20th and 21st centuries.
		When we look at the fall of the Eastern Bloc nations, the fall of the Soviet Union, the fall of the Berlin Wall after 1989, the creation of many new independent nations in Eastern Europe, almost all of which modeled their declarations of independence by using documents that use the structure and language of our Declaration of Independence.
		And Jesse had asked about Gandhi, for instance, and of course, Gandhi used the language of the American Revolution, many of the tactics, things like non-importation, the production of Indian-made goods, the boycotts against British-made goods to try to put political pressure to ultimately bring independence for India after the Second World War.
		So we cannot really, I think, exaggerate too much the ongoing significance of the Declaration of Independence and America's founding for people around the world.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Here's Ross in Florida.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Ross, you're on with Scott Stevenson.
unidentified		Good day.
		I hope everyone has a wonderful Independence Day.
		I just want to thank C-SPAN for committing to this 250th anniversary starting today.
		And I'm hoping that you'll be able to maximize the potential reaching out to the school systems and all the politicians that everyone to learn about their history as it is with etymology to know about democracy requires to know your history.
		And I'm hoping that you're all going to be able to maximize that potential.
		And going all the way back to the founding, where it all started with the Mayflower and the Mayflower Compact,
		where they all signed an agreement so that we can get along with each other and just learning about our shared history so that we can have a shared present and future.
		All right.
		And Ross.
		Yep.
		The other thing is I just wanted to say that I'm actually a descendant of one of the signers of the Declaration.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		No, which one, Ross?
unidentified		George Ross.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Pennsylvania.
unidentified		All right.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Scott.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I think, Ross, that dream of us continuing the quest for unity that goes all the way back to many of those founding waves of immigrants who came to these shores seeking a better life,
		those who came here involuntarily, but whose labor helped to build this nation and who ultimately came to believe that the project of American independence, building governments based on equality, that the purpose of government was the welfare of ordinary people that empowered people to hold sovereignty rather than it coming from those who were nobles or for kings.
		I mean, that is the dream that continues to be America, and it is certainly unfinished.
		But I just hope, you know, the next year between now and the nation's 250th birthday, that we have everyone from schoolchildren to the members of America's greatest generation, the World War II generation, who we're so conscious are leaving us now and passing, but a good reminder of what the nation can do when it comes together around a glorious common cause.
		And that's, I think, what many of us, despite our differences, are seeking right now.
		And so let's talk to our neighbors and try to make the 250th a recommitment to those founding ideals from the Declaration of Independence.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Stephanie in New York, New York.
		Good morning.
		You're on the air.
unidentified		Good morning.
		And I want to thank Scott Stevenson for his work at the museum.
		I think it's a very important topic.
		I tie it to your earlier question about what does independence mean to you.
		And as somebody who's a 4th of July baby, I actually was born on the 1st.
		My whole birthday growing up was tied to these 4th of July celebrations.
		And I think that Scott brought up something that I think is really important before the show ends.
		And he mentioned that Dr. Benjamin Rush had made a comment about the difference between the American Revolutionary War versus the American Revolution.
		And that the American Revolution, if I can paraphrase him, was still an ongoing event.
		And I think that we kind of forget that.
		I think that that's an important point.
		And as an educator, I constantly remind the children that this is our goal to live up to the principles of what the Constitution is pushing forth.
		But I find it disheartening and challenging when our independent governing bodies capitulate.
		We had all of these senators and House representatives and so forth saying, don't sign this, we stand against it, and yet they caved to sign it.
		Whether they should or shouldn't, that's their personal choice, but they were sent by their people to fight for our rights, and it bothers me when they don't utilize their actual independence.
		And so I find that challenging.
		But the other irony I find, Scott, and with all due respect, you're sitting in this hall with these amazing flags, and the Monmouth flag was created from furniture fabric, but we import the majority of our American flags from overseas.
		We don't even make our own.
		And so I worry that the value that comes from what our flag should be and is represented is lost and diminished, as well as the people we send to be our voices don't utilize their own independence.
		All right, Stephanie, thank you.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's hear from Scott.
unidentified		Go ahead.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, no, I think it's really important to remember that Our form of government absolutely depends upon citizens voting, being civically engaged, holding their elected representatives accountable.
		If you were to get a group of people in this neighborhood in Philadelphia, people working at the taverns and down in the upholstery shops that were making those flags, enslaved people of African descent, members of Congress, and put them in a little time capsule and bring them here today.
		I think one of the things that would be most astonishing to them is: A, that we have universal suffrage.
		You know, everyone who is a citizen has the right to vote.
		That was radical.
		It was an idea that existed at the time, but to see the extent to which that has come to fruition in our times would be amazing.
		And I think they would be very concerned about the low levels of participation, the low, you know, the relatively small proportion of people who participate in local elections, in primaries, let alone in national elections.
		And they would see that as the seeds of destruction of that Republican form of government that they created, because it absolutely depends on using that most powerful tool that has ever been given to mankind to shape its future and present circumstance, and that is representation, and that is voting.
		And so all of us, I hope, will sort of double down as we're educating young people, as we're talking to our fellow citizens, of reminding them that that tool that we have is still a dream for most people living in the world today.
		And it is why America continues to be such an inspiring beacon, despite all of the challenges that we have that you rightfully point out.
		But let's double down and remember that this is a very special nation.
		It has played an incredibly important role in raising the aspirations of people around the world.
		And there is a lot of work still left to be done for sure.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Michael, Plainfield, Illinois.
		Michael, you're on.
		Michael, are you there?
		In Plainfield?
unidentified		Yes, I'm here.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Yes, go right ahead.
unidentified		Yeah.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		Hello, Michael.
unidentified		Birds.
		Hello.
		I don't mean to burst your bubble, but I'm not celebrating anything.
		This, you know, our country is gone right in the ditch.
		Just a week or so ago, the Supreme Court, you know, did away with these nationwide injunctions.
		Why was that done?
		So that working people can't even get any redress in the courts, okay?
		The founding fathers, there might have been a handful in there that really believed in some of the things that you've been talking about, but I don't believe it.
		They were rich people that didn't want to pay taxes to the crown, just like our one percenters today, and the whole country is just ruined.
		Look, my grandfather's brother was in World War I. My father was in the Pacific in World War II.
		I was in service during the Vietnam War.
		And we haven't gotten much of anything for it.
		I'll tell you that much.
		The courts are packed.
		The Supreme Court, a bunch of stooges that are controlled by the one percenters.
		We've got more than just a little bit of work to do to straighten this place out, in my opinion.
		And I think I've earned my right to have an opinion.
		But you're welcome to comment on that.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead, Scott Stevenson.
scott stephenson ▲ ● ▼		No one believes more devoutly in your right to have an opinion than I do.
		Absolutely.
		I mean, that is ultimately at its core, what the American Revolution is about, is the ability to express those opinions and then the tools to try to affect change.
		And, you know, there was a letter, wonderful letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to Thomas Paine, the English immigrant who wrote Common Sense and the Crisis and wrote some of the most stirring prose that inspired the American independence movement, including his pamphlet Common Sense, the crisis that he writes in one of the low moments of the Revolutionary War when he writes, these are the times that try men's souls.
		And this is, of course, after the Revolution, during the French Revolution.
		But in this letter between Jefferson and Paine, Jefferson says, you know, go on doing with the pen what was formerly done with the sword.
		And he is encouraging him to continue to use his skills as an inspiring writer to support democracy, to support the creation of republics.
		And it's a good reminder that the alternative to the system that we have, as flawed and as imperfect as it can seem to us, is very dark in American history.
		And that is civil conflict.
		That is the sword rather than the pen.
		So I would just, we can be at a different place on the optimism thermometer about where we are currently as a nation.
		But I hope we can all double down on our commitment to using those tools, which are a gift to us from that founding generation and all the generations that have served since then to effect change.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Let's talk to Hillgrove in Johnstown, Pennsylvania.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		All you hear from the current administration is about illegal immigration.
		The original immigrants, illegal immigrants in this country were the Puritans, the Pilgrims, the colonists, and the slaves.
		They were never processed.
		But this is not a happy time.
		And I really think this administration doesn't really project the American ideals.
		I'm sorry to say.
		So that's my feeling about the 4th of July as far as that goes.
		I mean, it seems to me that this whole thing about illegal immigration is a total just bogus idea.
mimi geerges ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		And on that, we have run out of time.
		Scott Stevenson, President and CEO of the Museum of the American Revolution.

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