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Feb. 17, 2025 11:31-13:05 - CSPAN

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Washington Journal Washington Journal

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Speaker	Time	Text
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Began our program with today, asking you who's your favorite president and why.
		Phone lines for you to call in.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Independents, 202-748-8002.
		Go ahead and call in as we show you some of the headlines from the national papers this President's Day, including this from the Washington Times: keeping the president in President's Day.
		Holiday becomes increasingly focused on retail instead of George Washington.
		The official designation of the holiday in the Federal Register is George Washington's birthday.
		Here's another one from USA Today.
		The headline there: President's Day is not just for mattresses, a history of presidents and presidents' day.
		We want to know who's your favorite president and why, setting aside this 30 minutes to do so.
		There's the numbers on your screen.
		And this is Deborah in Raleigh, North Carolina, Democrat.
		Deborah, good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
		Good morning.
		My favorite president would have to be Thomas Jefferson.
		He was deeply flawed.
		Yes, he held slaves.
		And yes, he did not emancipate them.
		I think he might have had his own private reasons.
		It doesn't excuse that, but his mind was so brilliant.
		And he is the one that imagined and upheld the separation of church and state.
		And if you go anywhere, almost anywhere else in the world, I don't think you'll come up with that.
		But to me, that was brilliant.
		Separating church from state.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Deborah, if Thomas Jefferson were somehow able to look to today, how do you think he would feel about that particular issue, the separation of church and state in the United States today?
unidentified		How he would feel?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
unidentified		Oh, I think he would still be even more so in favor of a secular government.
unidentified		Even when you go sometime, well, anyways, thank you very much.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Deborah in Raleigh, North Carolina.
		The C-SPAN Historians Survey.
		It's been done four times over the years.
		The most recent one in 2021.
		Taking a look at the presidents, ranking them by historians, by presidential historians, more than 100 on various individual leadership characteristics, from public persuasion to crisis leadership, economic management, moral authority, international relations.
		Here's what those presidential historians say is the top 10.
		They include Abraham Lincoln, George Washington in second, Franklin Roosevelt in third, then Teddy Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower, Harry Truman, Thomas Jefferson there at seventh, John F. Kennedy, and Ronald Reagan, and rounding out the top 10, Barack Obama in that latest list.
		Again, the one done in 2021.
		LBJ comes in just out of the top 10 at number 11, followed by James Monroe and Woodrow Wilson.
		You can explore the results yourself at c-span.org, or you can give us a call this morning and let us know who's your favorite president and why.
		This is Austin in New York, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hi.
		I think my favorite president would actually have to be Teddy Roosevelt.
		I'm a big fan of the national parks.
		Also, when it comes to his foreign policy, a big fan of, you know, obviously the Panama Canal opened up a lot of economic opportunities for us.
		And also, I dig the expansion of the Navy.
		I'll just leave it at that.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Austin, New York.
		This is Cliff in Tulsa, Oklahoma, Independent.
		Who's your favorite president and why?
unidentified		Bill Clinton.
		I made the most money in my history of being self-employed.
		Probably the most prosperous time.
		Only guy ever really took over the Defense Department and cut the budget, balanced the budget.
		And I had friends that were personal friends with him, and he was one of the most likable guys you'd ever meet.
		But he's still an all-time favorite.
		And then I guess JFK would be my second one.
		I wasn't quite old enough to understand politics, but I really, really liked him.
		So I studied him for years.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Cliff, what line of work were you in in the 90s, and why was it so profitable for you back then?
unidentified		We did, we were in the car business, but we were also in the construction plumbing business.
		And it seemed like everything just clicked for all the years he was in business, you know, that we were in business back then.
		And everything just seemed a lot easier for the, you know, for the middle class than it is now.
		Things were a lot cheaper.
		It seemed like there were way more opportunities.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		How do you feel about opportunities today, Cliff?
unidentified		It's tough right now.
		I'm semi-retired, and this is probably the toughest I've seen the construction business.
		You know, of course, we got a lot of Mexican guys working that are really good tradesmen, but you just can't get people to show up and work sober anymore.
		That's the problem.
		So you can't really grow your business.
		It's just, and then everything just tripled or quadrupled in price.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Cliff in Oklahoma.
		This is Rita in Ohio, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's your favorite president, Rita?
unidentified		Kennedy.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why JFK?
unidentified		Because of the saying he said, it's not what your country could do for you, it's what you could do for your country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And how do you think Americans view that saying today, Rita?
unidentified		It's in sad shape.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Rita in Ohio, a new book about John Kennedy and the relationship with Nikita Khrushchev and their interactions in the early 1960s.
		It's called A Different Russia.
		It's by Marvin Kalb, a longtime professor and journalist and author.
		He was on C-SPAN recently to talk about that book.
		If you want to learn more about Kennedy and Khrushchev and hear Marvin Kalb's voice, you can do so at c-span.org.
		This is Summer in Tennessee, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		Hi.
		So my favorite president was Bill Clinton.
		He was the first one I voted for, and I just thought he was a great president.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Why did you think he was such a great president, Summer?
unidentified		Her deficit down.
		I had money in my pocket.
		I didn't live paycheck to paycheck.
		It was just a good time.
		You know, the 90s was a great time.
		And I mean, he wasn't perfect by no means, but he was a good president.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What line of work were you in in the 90s?
unidentified		Well, I was in high school, so I was working at McDonald's.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's summer in Tennessee.
		This is Mac in St. Thomas, Virgin Islands, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Have a tie between Jimmy Carter and Kennedy.
		The rest of them won't presidents.
		Most of them will sleep.
		Anybody that votes was leave only to think.
		We call him as a black man.
		I'm not voting for Barack Obama.
		He did a lot of bad things to me.
		He wasn't that bad, but he wasn't that great.
		I must say it's dead.
		The Pento, we thought he was good, but right now he's stealing everything out of Haiti.
		So I'm the map.
		Yana Bamac.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Mac in the Virgin Islands out to Durango, Colorado.
		This is Phyllis, Republican.
		Who's your favorite president and why?
unidentified		Good morning, John.
		John, I'm going to be 80 this year.
		And the president that's stuck in my mind since I'm a little kid, I guess through my family, was President Eisenhower.
		Everything was good.
		Father knows best and all that.
		Amaya?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, ma'am.
		In what ways was everything good, Phyllis?
		What did you like about Eisenhower?
unidentified		You know, it was happy days and all the 50s.
		I think it was the 50s, right?
		And I just got it stuck in my head from my family that he was the best.
		I always looked at him as the father of the country, a good man.
		He served in the military.
		And I think he started the highways across America, as I was told.
		I don't know.
		Is that true?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And Phyllis, also known for warning about the military-industrial complex.
		Any thoughts on that?
		That's something that certainly gets a lot of attention.
unidentified		Yeah, when anybody asks me who was the best president, I always say Eisenhower.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You like Ike?
unidentified		All through my life.
unidentified		What?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You like Ike.
unidentified		Yeah, I like Ike.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Phyllis and Durango.
		This is Kathleen in Kentucky, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Morning.
		Go ahead.
		Go ahead.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's your favorite president, Kathleen?
unidentified		Well, I have two favorite presidents.
		My number one favorite was Abraham Lincoln.
		Kentucky-born.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And Kathleen, just listen through your phone to me.
		You don't have to watch the TV or listen to the TV.
		You said he's Kentucky-born, although Illinois known as the land of Lincoln these days, right?
unidentified		Yes, and I like him because he freed the slaves.
		And I just adored him.
		I just think that he was the greatest.
		And my second favorite was Barack Obama.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And why Obama, Kathleen?
unidentified		Because he was, I just think that he was really a great president.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kathleen in Kentucky, the bluegrass state, to the Keystone State.
		It's Rose in Rockwood, Pennsylvania.
		Republican, good morning.
unidentified		Oh, hello there.
unidentified		How are you today?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Doing well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's your favorite president?
unidentified		My favorite president is Donald J. Trump.
		And I will tell you why, because he is running this country like a business.
		And just like he was so successful in his business ventures, he's making our country successful.
		And he is actually, he thinks outside of the box.
		I think that's what I like most about him.
		And as he's so in tune with like a few of the callers said, JFK and ask not what your country can do for you.
		Ask what you can do for your country.
		That's what he's about, too.
		He's not about just giving money away, the welfare state.
		And especially, he doesn't want U.S. money to go to foreign enterprises.
		That's why all his accent right now on getting rid of USAID because all that money was going overseas.
		Hey, thank you very much for taking my call.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Rose, before you go, there's a member of Congress that wants to put Donald Trump's face on Mount Rushmore to add a fifth face to Mount Rushmore.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Do you think, would you support that?
unidentified		Absolutely.
		100%.
		And there's actually, if you look at Mount Rushmore, from an artistic viewpoint, you can actually see where President Trump's face would fit.
		So, yes, I agree because he has done so much for this country.
		And there's so many things that he has done that people don't even realize they take for granted.
		And he will pull this country back to where it should be and make America great again.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Donald Trump was at the Daytona 500 yesterday and took the presidential limousine out on the track at Daytona 500.
		There's some of the video of Donald Trump there in the presidential limousine at the Daytona 500.
		This is Kevin in Massachusetts, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Hello.
unidentified		Can you hear me?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Who's your favorite president and why?
unidentified		George Washington.
		And first is because he refused an offer to be king, straight up.
		And then after that, he like made his cabinets in Congress or whatever.
		He didn't like get all his buddies and people that he agreed with.
		He picked people that didn't agree with him.
		He picked people that hated him.
		And he picked all these different people who came from different walks of life and threw them in a room together and said, figure it out.
		And they did, for better or worse, you know, whatever happened, how things were the real reality of America back then.
		And an honorable mention to Lafayette, who was Washington's like best buddy, really kind of in a lot of ways.
		And that just supposedly Lafayette had a huge influence on George Washington's and how he, you know, had what happened with African Americans back then.
		Like, I guess Lafayette made Washington have an epiphany or something.
		I don't know.
		That's all.
		Thank you for taking my call.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kevin in Massachusetts.
		Here's a little presidential history, presidential artifact in today's Washington Post about George Washington.
		For sale, a rare wartime George Washington letter for $150,000 on April 26, 1777, during the Revolutionary War, a large British raiding party attacked an American supply depot in Danbury, Connecticut, burning houses and barns, destroying stores and shoes and tents and medicine and food.
		It seemed like a huge loss for the American forces under George Washington, who had been leading the battle for independence from Britain for almost two years.
		But on May 7th, Washington wrote a letter to a worried subordinate saying that the raid had not been a disaster.
		The loss at Danbury is to be regretted, he said, but I cannot consider it important in the light that you seem to.
		The British forces had been repeatedly attacked by American militia as it retreated.
		Despite the raid, Washington realized that the British force, which included pro-British loyalists, had inflamed the countryside against them.
		I am inclined to believe in the future they will pursue such measures with a great degree of caution.
		That letter, more than 240 years old, was for sale.
		It's auction price, $150,000, a focus on that letter from the RAB Collection of Pennsylvania, as it's known, 1777 letter, $150,000 price tag.
		This is Patty in Frederick, Maryland, Democrat.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		This is so very, very exciting to listen to.
		I will immediately say I'm not an academic related to presidential history, but at 76 years old, I think I might want to start studying it.
		This is amazing.
		The thing I wanted to say is that my answer to the question is more based on sort of gut emotions and also looking at the world right now.
		And the first president that came to my mind is Jimmy Carter, who wasn't on any realist.
		But what I saw and what I heard just recently, you know, reviewing his life, was his intention to consider the whole world in his actions.
		And with his own hands, he went out and was trying to be the change that he wanted to see in the world.
		And he, you know, the habitat for humanity, that word humanity right there.
		I guess I'm feeling strongly right this minute about him because of what the world's feeling like at the moment.
		But the emphasis on global and doing what you can for the world, I just felt that was very, very important and timely right now to be pondering.
		Each of those presidents react to the world situation in their own ways.
		They all have strengths and weaknesses.
		But I was particularly drawn to him.
		And Barack Obama, of course, in my mind, the inspiration, just that unifier, that ability to speak in a way that helped us all rise up and think about people who weren't being served and who needed attention.
		And so that's on a level than a lot of the academic rigor that goes into people deciding those things would use.
		But that's just from me.
		And I'm headed to a rally today in Frederick, Maryland, along with hopefully lots of cities right now, just to try and put a voice out there to ask for individual help to help presidents know what might serve us all best.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What's the rally, Patty?
unidentified		It came through me through like the UCLA.
		It's just kind of a go and say your piece.
		It's a protest, but it's just people voicing what their big concerns are around things that are happening unlawfully, things around immigration in our town.
		There's legislation that's not helpful for immigrants.
		It's, you know, people are going to be allowed to maybe go into churches and do raids.
		And so it's just people kind of realizing their voice might matter and speaking up, and it's probably going to be on lots of subjects.
		But it's in Frederick, and they said the TV cameras might be there.
		I don't know what else is going on around the world, but I'm there.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Is it with the 50-51 movement?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Patty?
unidentified		I think so.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		A story on that from today from NPR.
		And Patty, thank you for the phone call.
		Protests set to take place in several major cities across the U.S. this President's Day.
		These demonstrations are being organized by the 50-51 movement, which stands for 50 protests, 50 States, One Movement.
		The protests are in response to what organizers describe as the anti-democratic and illegal actions of the Trump administration that marks the second nationwide protest by the group following an event held on February 5th.
		NPR writing about those series of protests in various cities today.
		This is Gary in the land of 10,000 Lakes, Independent.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Yeah, good morning, everybody, and all my veterans' friends out there.
eben in california ▲ ● ▼		I really like President Kennedy and stuff.
unidentified		And one of my mother's friends had a friend over in Hibbing there, and they were the FBI men, and they took care of John John and Carolyn.
		And I really like them and stuff.
		And another thing, I think Trump's doing a pretty good job.
		I'm kind of a fence writer.
		I worked at the Mines for 30 years, and I kind of vote for the guy I think that's good.
		It doesn't matter what your party, that's just the way I am.
		And I appreciate that President Biden voted against that steal for Nipon buying our steel company.
		And now Trump, he's against it too.
		And so I hope everything goes good now.
		And I kind of been watching Fox Channel.
		I never watched that before, but there's a lot of different things they say all these congressmen and people are making so much money, it's unbelievable how much they make.
		Like Pelosi, she made $300 million, and she's been here a long time.
		And I think that's a lot of money for anybody to make.
		And all these people, people don't realize that all these people are making so much money in Congress, it's unfair to the people.
		And thank you very much for taking my call.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Gary in Minnesota.
		You mentioned Fox News.
		Juan Williams of Fox News will be joining us in about 10 or 15 minutes this morning to talk about his new book, New Prize for These Eyes: The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement.
		Stick around for that discussion as we take you to the land of Lincoln.
		Tom, Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		To me, without question, the greatest president in the history of the country has got to be Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
		He's my idol and sort of the just amazing four-term president who got America through the Great Depression and through World War II while he was in a wheelchair, mind you.
		And he also created Social Security, which we still use today and rely on, and other safety net programs for Americans during what was probably the toughest part of American history, you could argue, or modern history at least, in the 20th century.
		And just in the modern sense, I would choose Bill Clinton, who I'd say had a great economy because he worked with, in a bipartisan fashion, with Duke Gingrich and John Kasich to bring down the national debt.
		And he also had a surplus by the end of his term economically.
		And he also expanded our global reach economically, international trade after the Berlin Wall had come down.
		And we had a successful military operation in Bosnia under Clinton.
		If it weren't for the Monica Lewinsky scandal, he would have left office as probably one of our greatest presidents.
		Thank you for your time.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Tom, you mentioned FDR after FDR.
		They changed the rule of presidents being able to run for as many terms as they want.
		And do you think that was a good idea?
		Do you think two terms for a president is enough?
		Do you think we should be able to elect presidents to a third term if we want to as a country?
unidentified		No, I think two terms are enough now.
		And I would argue that this talk of Donald Trump going three terms is ridiculous, especially since he was impeached twice, or any president going too long.
		Because sometimes power goes to their heads and winds up, you know, and more corrupt and you can't get rid of them.
		There's plenty of capable people to be president.
		So I think the two-term policy is appropriate.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Tom in Illinois.
		This is Kevin, Atlanta, Georgia, Independent.
		Good morning.
		Who's your favorite president and why?
unidentified		My favorite president is Andrew Jackson, who is being maligned because it's become very unfavorable to address the most grievous problem in our country, which is the money.
		Andrew Jackson was actually the only president to completely pay off the national debt.
		And he did so by recognizing that it was the Congress's refusal to simply print the money and instead allow middlemen through the bank to earn interest on it that was a parasite that was hurting the entire population.
		In contrast to Donald Trump, I heard some callers claiming Donald Trump is their favorite president.
		Andrew Jackson served with distinction in several different conflicts.
		And if I recall correctly, Donald Trump avoided his draft summons to serve in the Vietnam War.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Kevin in Atlanta.
		This is Jennifer back in Illinois.
		This is the independent line.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Well, the greatest president, of course, was Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who is deeply despised by today's Republicans and always has been ever since he served.
		And the worst president is the man we have in there now, and we have to get him out of there.
		He never should have been elected in the first place.
		How the hell did this man get elected?
		The reason is racism.
		White men especially wanted to make sure that the blacks in this country got no further and they were moving and getting more and more benefits for themselves through Joe Biden, and they wanted to stop that as soon as possible.
rima laibow ▲ ● ▼		White men in this country gave us Donald Trump, and he's going to be the downfall of the United States.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Jennifer in Illinois.
		This is the New York Post editorial board, their headline of their piece from yesterday, this President's Day, Remember What George Washington Can Teach Us and Donald Trump, the editorial board writing, though rarely honored these days exactly on February 22nd, his actual birth date, President's Day is officially still Washington's birthday, and that's entirely right and proper, they write, as every American should happily honor our first chief executive.
		Washington was a man for the ages, born a Virginia aristocrat.
		He carefully cultivated his virtues, self-control, moderation, civility, his strengths, physical and moral, to become the most widely admired presence, first in the 13 colonies and then in the new nation.
		As president, he also set the future course of the U.S. government itself.
		He understood he was setting precedents that had to last, even as many disagreed on what precise form our government should take.
		It was Washington who emphasized that America was a republic when he rebuked those who wanted a monarchy or an exalted president.
		As we move through the aftermath of a bitterly fought presidential election, they write, it's important to remember George Washington's example, the editorial board of the New York Post.
		This is Terrell in Owings Mill, Maryland.
		Democrat, good morning.
		Who's your favorite president and why?
unidentified		Actually, I have three, if I can say.
		I like Jimmy Carter because I bought my first home.
		I like Bill Clinton because I bought my second home.
		And I like Barack Obama because I had my, I bought my last home, and he was a good, good unifier.
		Okay, can I give you two of my worst?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Sure, Terrell.
unidentified		Okay.
		My worst was one of my worst times in my life was from 1984 to 1988 under Ronald Reagan.
		And I was a steel worker for Bethlehem Steel, and I almost lost my first home under Ronald Reagan because he didn't help the steel workers.
		Okay.
		And the other one is, okay, can I ask you a question about Ronald Reagan?
		Did Ronald Reagan have dementia?
		Because I remember back watching the news that I remember hearing the newscaster, one of our national news people, say that he was falling asleep at G7 meetings, and that's a form of dementia.
		Can you tell me whether he had dementia or not?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So, Terrell, maybe a presidential historian might be better.
		Ronald Reagan diagnosed with Alzheimer's in 1994.
		There has been plenty of research about when those symptoms started.
		But you mentioned Ronald Reagan.
		This is Michael on Facebook saying Reagan was his favorite president.
		He made conservatism mainstream.
		He had previous experience in the entertainment industry and in politics.
		He had a great sense of humor, and he got on well with his political opponents.
		That's from Facebook, looking for your comments on social media, asking you who your favorite president was and why.
		This is David in Indiana, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		My favorite president, I think our favorite president was Abraham Lincoln.
		Because of all the other presidents we had, Lincoln was the only president of the disunited states.
		The others were united, but he's the only one that had that distinction, and he served very well.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		David, Abraham Lincoln is the president that is known to have the most books written about him.
		Said that he perhaps has the most books written about him besides Jesus Christ.
		That is something from the publishing industry.
		Have you read any Abraham Lincoln books, David?
unidentified		It's been quite a few years ago when I was back in high school.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What did you read about Abraham Lincoln?
unidentified		Well, I read about that he was very poor, you know, had very humble beginnings, but he was honest, very honest, he was known for his honesty, and it was very difficult for him to work his way up, but he did.
		And he ran against a very popular politician and beat him.
		And he was for the people.
		He really was for the people.
		And he paid for it with his life when he was assassinated.
		But he's the only president of the disunited states that we had.
		And that makes a big difference to me.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's David in Indiana, one of the many books about Abraham Lincoln.
		One recently out from the historian Nigel Hamilton.
		Lincoln versus Davis, Jefferson Davis, is that Davis, the war of the presidents.
		And it was featured on C-SPAN's book TV.
		BookTV.org is where you can go if you want to watch Nigel Hamilton talking about his book.
		One more call here.
		This is Debbie Wading in Ohio.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Well, good morning.
		Thank you.
		I'm torn between two.
		I love Teddy Roosevelt, but my favorite is Andrew Jackson.
		And I like to look at someone's backstory.
		He was born very poor.
		He was orphaned early.
		Our only president to have been a prisoner of war at an age of 14 in the American Revolution.
		We all know the famous story.
		He refused to polish a British soldier's boot, and the soldier took a sword to his face and scarred him.
		Andrew Jackson was also hero of the War of 1812.
		And unfortunately, he did shoot a man in a duel, but it was to protect his wife's honor, and he could have chosen a proxy, and he didn't.
		I always felt that he was a fighter and a tough person and a great president.
		And I think Andrew Jackson was our best.
		Teddy Roosevelt second and Donald J. Trump third.
		Thank you.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		That's Debbie in Ohio, our last caller in this segment of the Washington Journal.
		Stick around an hour left this morning in that time conversation with Fox News senior political analyst Juan Williams.
		His new book is out.
		It's New Prize for These Eyes: The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement.
		We'll be right back.
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unidentified		We are still at our core a democracy.
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		Washington Journal continues.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Author and Fox News political analyst Juan Williams joins us now.
		His latest book was released last month, New Prize for These Eyes, the Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement.
		And Mr. Williams, what do you mean by America's second civil rights movement?
		How is it different from that first movement began with Brown v. Board of Education, shaped America in the 60s and 70s?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, John, I fact wrote about that in a book that was published nearly 40 years ago called Eyes on the Prize, America's Civil Rights Years.
		And I don't know that it was the first civil rights movement.
		Some people say maybe what happened after the Civil War, Reconstruction, the like was a first movement.
		But I, you know, growing up in America during that time, for me, it was the first civil rights movement.
		I think it's the major civil rights movement of the 20th century, 1954 to 65, as you said, beginning with Brown v. Board.
		And the idea there was that the federal government would enforce civil rights laws as applying to all people, regardless of their race, black, white, whatever.
		So you say the schools should be integrated, passage of the Civil Rights Act of 64 and the Voting Rights Act of 65.
		Everybody has the right to vote.
		That's the first movement in my mind.
		I think we're now in the midst of a second movement.
		And in the second movement, times have shifted.
		People ask me, well, if there's a second movement, where's Dr. King?
		And I say, we don't have a Dr. King in the second movement.
		They say, what's the agenda for the second movement?
		I say, well, there's an obvious agenda in terms of Black Lives Matter and issues like how the policeman kneeled on George Floyd's neck for several minutes until he died.
		So that's a clear agenda.
		But it's very different than the legislative agenda ending segregation as law in the first movement.
		Now you have a movement where, you know, I like this analogy.
		In the first movement, you had the Great March on Washington.
		One day, 250,000 people.
		After George Floyd, you had marches in the thousands all over America.
		In fact, all over the globe.
		You could have been in Paris or Buenos Aires.
		And there were millions of people, even just in the United States, more than 26 million people marching.
		And you can see this is a bigger movement.
		And whereas, as I said, you had people ask me, asking me about where's Dr. King in this second movement?
		Who's the leader?
		I say, you know, this is a 24-7 movement.
		And you see it online in memes, messages, images.
		And you saw, of course, the image of the George Floyd case.
		It wouldn't have blown up the way it did unless you had social media amplifying it 24-7.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When did the second movement, as you describe it, when did it begin?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I think it began really in 2004 when Barack Obama spoke at the Democratic National Convention.
		It's a famous speech because I bet that you can even remember that he said, we are not a black America, a white America, Latino America, Asian America.
		We are the United States of America.
		And when he said that, everybody was like, wow, this is a different vision of America coming from a black leader.
		Typically, if you think back to Dr. King or even forward to Jesse Jackson, Alice Sharpton, people have been talking about the problems in black America or the debt owed to black America given slavery and rampant discrimination.
		But here was a young black man standing up and saying, you know what?
		My story wouldn't have been possible in any other country but America.
		It was an optimistic, forward-looking vision.
		People thought we could have a new way of thinking about race in America.
		And suddenly this concept emerges of a post-racial America.
		And now you have discussions about, well, how can America be different, especially given the fact of huge demographic shifts that in the first movement, 90% of America was white.
		Second movement, it's like 60%.
		Blacks are still about 10, 13% of the population, but Hispanics are the largest minority and Asians the fastest growing minority.
		So it's a different conversation.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me bring viewers back to that moment, July 2004, the Democratic National Convention.
		Barack Obama gets up to speak.
		Here's about two minutes.
unidentified		Now, even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us.
		The spin masters, the negative ad peddlers, who embrace the politics of anything goes.
		Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America.
		There is the United States of America.
		There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America.
		There's the United States of America.
		The pundits.
barack obama ▲ ● ▼		The pundits like to slice and dice our country into red states and blue states, red states for Republicans, blue states for Democrats.
unidentified		But I've got news for them too.
		We worship an awesome God in the blue states and we don't like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the red states.
		We coach Little League in the blue states.
		And yes, we've got some gay friends in the red states.
		There are patriots who oppose the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.
		We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes.
		All of us defending the United States of America.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Juan Williams, where were you that night?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		In the Boston Fleet Center for the speech.
		It was a really interesting moment, John, because, you know, I was there as a political analyst for Fox News, and I'm standing there with some of the politicians.
		I saw the image you had there of Jackson.
		I think I was right there.
		And, you know, people were talking.
		It was like a convention.
		You know, it's like meet and greet.
		How are you?
		This important person's walking by.
		No one was paying attention to an unknown state senator from Illinois.
		But as he spoke, you could say something was changing in the arena.
		Suddenly, there was more quiet.
		And then as you saw, people started responding in the standing ovations.
		You could tell something was happening.
		And it was a very special moment, obviously, in terms of the political career of a future president.
		But I think something else was happening in terms of the start of a second civil rights movement.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You mentioned Jesse Jackson.
		What was the relationship between Jesse Jackson and Barack Obama?
		Or kind of more broadly, the old guard of the first civil rights movement and what emerged as, as you describe it, the second civil rights movement.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think it's pretty clear that Jackson did not see Obama as the man to rise really to become the next great black politician after him.
		Jackson comes out of the civil rights movement and Dr. King and has an image, a theory of civil rights that's quite different.
		I think he hoped that his son, Jesse Jackson Jr., who went to Congress, would become sort of the next great civil rights black political leader.
		Instead, here comes this young man from the same state that Jesse Jackson's in, Illinois, with a very different take on things, much more looking, as I said, much more optimistic, forward-looking.
		And it, I think, maybe hits a low point when Obama is speaking about the issue of black men and families and responsibility to children.
		And Jackson says, you know, why is he talking down to black people?
		Why is he lecturing black America?
		And then, you know, says something awful, he could lose a body part or something, you know, that kind of thing.
		And of course, that relationship was never a very good one.
		As you see subsequently, when Obama goes to the White House, he uses, or really turns to, Al Sharpton as his emissary to the black community.
		And Jackson, you know, Jackson is sort of left out of that cycle.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		In the second civil rights movement, you talk a lot about the dynamic between Barack Obama and what he represented.
		And as you mentioned, Black Lives Matter and what that means to the second civil rights movement.
		Explain that dynamic.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, Black Lives Matter emerges after the murder of Trayvon Martin.
		So Martin is murdered in 12, the verdict's in 13, I believe.
		And what happens is when you have the verdict, when the young man, this young man, you know, coming home with the Skittles and the iced tea, a volunteer security guard confronts him.
		He thinks the kid looks suspicious or something.
		They get into a confrontation.
		The kid is shot.
		But the police don't arrest the killer right away, and it's only under pressure.
		And then when he's tried, he's acquitted.
		And that's when three women out west say, you know what, that child's life mattered.
		I don't care if you think he was dressed in a hoodie and looks suspicious or whatever, that child, black lives matter.
		And that takes off.
		And of course, you have other cases that occur after that.
		Eric Garner, for example, maybe most famously Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, which I referenced at the start of the book about whether Obama will go to Ferguson.
		It's in that period that you see now there's something different, a different kind of civil rights structure taking place.
		Because again, no Dr. King, no hierarchy.
		This Black Lives Matter movement is kind of all over, and it's all over the internet.
		And it can be in one city under one group of people, another city under another group of people.
		And it's just a different kind of movement.
		And then you get what I think is really striking is the opposition forms.
		And it forms in part in opposition to Obama.
		You get the Tea Party opposition, not only to spending and the bailouts for the financial institutions.
		You know, they're saying he's bailing out Wall Street, not Main Street.
		But then, of course, with the Affordable Care Act, I think it really, really takes shape.
		And there you see it, again, very racial, very angry.
		People saying, oh, you want to take away my health insurance?
		Oh, you want to raise my taxes to take care of these ne'er-do-wells, these poor, disproportionate people of color in America.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		I want to get to the opposition, but I want to stay on the leadership structure of the second civil rights movement because you help explain it in your book, New Prize for These Eyes, through the history of that first civil rights movement.
		Page 108 of your book.
		Here again was a split that had been evident a generation earlier in the first civil rights movement.
		The split was between the nonviolent compromising strategies of Dr. King versus the militant, by any means necessary demands of leaders like Malcolm X and SNCC and groups like the Black Panthers.
		In the 21st century's second movement, the split became a canyon between Obama's gradualist approach and Black Lives Matter's call for immediate action.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		It really is striking, and I think this is one of the ongoing tensions and dramas of even this moment in the second civil rights movement, John, that you see that the people in the leadership of Black Lives Matter, and especially some of the activists in the local communities, can you imagine they refuse to meet with the person who has the grandest pulpit, the bully pulpit in American life, the president of the United States, and the president's a black man.
		You would think, oh, yes, they would see an opportunity here to influence public policy and politics, but in fact, they're sort of dismissive of politics and politicians as, oh, you know, those people, they're kind of cynical about the role of politics in American life and don't see it as honest and authentic.
		And so they move away from it.
		And President Obama is very damning ultimately about this and says, you know, you've got to understand the nature of politics as compromise and working with people and staying in the fight.
		You can't just turn your back on it.
		And of course, from that perspective, it leads to the defeat of Hillary Clinton in 2016 because you see black turnout really go down and the questions about, oh, is Hillary Clinton dedicated to this movement and all that?
		It's a really, to me, fascinating.
		I think that's why I was taken with it, aspect of this story, which is that you wouldn't anticipate in thinking about a second civil rights movement that in fact they would turn on black politicians.
		Arguably, again, going back to the way you asked the question, how this is rooted in the first movement, the first movement, when you think about the Voting Rights Act, the great hope there is that there will be more black politicians to better represent the interests of black Americans.
		There will be more women politicians to represent the interests of women, Latina, et cetera.
		Now you get in the second movement young people who are saying, look at the, we've had a black president, we had black mayors, black governor.
		I don't necessarily see that there's more employment.
		I don't see that there's less violence.
		I don't see that there's better schools.
		So there's complaints about these black politicians coming from some of the activists in this second movement.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Juan Williams with us talking about his new book, New Prize for These Eyes, and he's with us until the end of our program today.
		Want to invite viewers to join the conversation.
		You can do so on phone lines as usual.
		Republicans 202-748-8001.
		Democrats 202-748-8000.
		Independents 202-748-8002.
		As folks are calling in, you wrote Eyes on the Prize after the first civil rights movement, as you describe it.
		You're writing New Prize for These Eyes amid the second civil rights movement.
		How did that change how you, as an analyst and as a historian, wrote about these two movements?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I think the big difference here is that, you know, after I wrote Eyes on the Prize, it was people who had been in the movement initially who reacted so well.
		Now, Eyes on the Prize, America's Civil Rights Years, was a companion volume to the PBS series of the same name done by Henry Hampton, just a brilliant filmmaker in Boston.
		This time, I'm on my own, John, and I think one of the big differences is, as you point out, Barack Obama's alive.
		When I wrote Eyes on the Prize first, Dr. King, the leading figure, was passed.
		And it's also the case right now. that I think it's evident in a second civil rights movement that we are constantly or consistently working on an emerging third civil rights movement.
		And I didn't have that in mind when I wrote Eyes on the Prize about the first movement.
		I saw it as a contained separate thing.
		The second movement is not like the first movement, as I've been discussing with you.
		But what you see is it has roots in the first movement, but it's its own entity.
		And I think now, especially now, as we see the arguments that are ongoing coming from the Trump administration, especially over diversity, equity, inclusion, you see these arguments forcing conversations about identity politics, as President Trump calls it.
		Is race a legitimate consideration in hiring?
		Is it a legitimate consideration in who gets into college?
		Is it a legitimate consideration in cultural representation, who's on TV or in the movies or in any way like that?
		Is it a legitimate issue to be considered in terms of police action or, you know, in the classroom whose story is told as American history?
		You know, I'm shocked.
		I got to tell you, even as I come in here this morning, I heard on the radio that in Easton, Maryland, they've had to cancel a Frederick Douglass Day parade because the National Guard has been told under Trump edicts, his executive order, they are not allowed to participate to support a Frederick Douglass Day holiday.
		And as you know, for a while, the Air Force stopped making mention in videos for recruits about the Tuskegee Airmen.
		Again, we're not going to mention diversity and the fact that this group of black men, even in a time of rampant, awful segregation, flew jets, airplanes, to fight for the United States of America against oppressive forces in Europe.
		This is unbelievable.
		But this is an ongoing conversation that we're in the midst of right now as I'm writing this book.
		We're in a conversation about what's the legitimate role of race in American society that is a society more diverse, more mixed than ever.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So why do you think Donald Trump won more black voters in 2024 than any Republican in nearly 50 years, doubled his support among black men from 2020?
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		In light of everything that you just described, explain those numbers from the 2024 election.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, as I said to you before, I think a lot of young activists, but especially young black men, are of the opinion, well, wait a second, the status quo is not exactly great for me.
		You know, in terms of employment opportunities, in terms of high rates of incarceration, I think it's still one of every three young black men is going to have some moment in dealing with the criminal justice system in this country.
		And so they're saying, look at the schools, look at the job picture, look at the opportunities for me going forward in this country.
		And they're looking for change.
		And they're looking for disruption.
		I think, and they have a lot of anger at government and all the rest.
		In that sense, there's some populist connection with the kind of grievance that President Trump offers so aggressively to white America, especially white men.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Juan Williams with us this morning, taking your phone calls, and there are plenty for you already.
		This is Richard in Maryland.
		It's Brentwood, Maryland.
		Democrat, good morning.
unidentified		Good morning, gentlemen.
		Mr. Williams, before I ask my question, I just want to say that you are cut from the same cloth as Martin O'Gransky called Rowan, calling balls, balls, strike strikes, and files, capital F-O-U-L, as they are, as you do every week, or when you're on the panel on Fox News.
		As it relates to Barack Obama, I think the greatest political advice that he ever received was what Congressman Wrangel told him in 2006 or 2007 when he was thinking about or he declared to run.
		Congressman Wrangel said that Obarack Obama is a smart guy.
		He has a great future in politics, but he wasn't ready for that job yet.
		He wasn't saying that in a demeaning way, but he knew the experience that it requires to be a president of the United States.
		And Mr. Obama just did not have that.
		He told him that, you know, be a senator, learn sausage making.
		I think that's something you would have told him if you'd had the chance to do so as well.
		And so he didn't learn.
		Some things you do have to compromise on, but sometimes you have to make a fist.
		A vein has to pop out your neck and fighting for what you really, really believe in.
		And as you just mentioned, the Frederick Douglass story, I saw that.
		It was most troubling.
		But on NPR this week, I saw, to add to that, a most troubling story was that high school students for Caucasians in high schools are holding auctions online at Snapshot trying to auction off their black students or schoolmates.
		And that's equally as troubling.
		And one even had the audacity, I mean, the awesomeness, the ugliness to say that possibly we need another Holocaust.
		So we are in troubling times, Mr. Williams, but I thank you for your untiring, tiring efforts to put a straight name in this discussion for me.
		Yes.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Thank you for the call.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Let me let Juan Williams jump in.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think, you know, one of the things that I wanted to jump on here with Richard was I remember when Ebony Magazine, Richard, in 2009, I believe, ran a cover, and it said, in our lifetime, and it had a picture of a black president.
		It's unbelievable for you, for me, that this occurred.
		And I think that when you think about, you know, some of the advice and people who were cautioning Obama about moving too quickly, I think a lot of people, those people, were backing Hillary Clinton at the time, thinking she's more likely to win, and that Obama needed to bide his time and, as you said, learn the sausage making.
		But incredibly, there was a black president in our lifetime.
		Obama rose up.
		Not only did he win once, he won twice, so he won reelection.
		The question is, you know, what are the consequences?
		It's like, what are the ripples of this?
		And part of that story has to do with, interestingly, as John was talking about, we're at a moment when so many young black people, young activists, question, what's going on with black politicians and why there haven't been more results from the election of black people into high office in this country.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		In our lifetime, are we really witnessing the election of the nation's first black president?
		That's the cover of Ebony magazine.
		And it was a March 2008 edition.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I just wanted to make sure, John.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Looking ahead to the election that year, Juan Williams, in your book, New Prize for These Eyes, you're somewhat critical of Black Lives Matter and how they've tried to further this second civil rights movement.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		What do you see as the failings of Black Lives Matter?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, in a way, you know, we could start with something like defund the police.
		That's well known as a slogan, but actually, you know, it comes from a small slice of people.
		And what it does, though, is it feeds the opposition because most people say, wait a second, we live in a society where there's violence, there's crime, and we need police.
		And so then it made them seem like they were out of step.
		And I think it distracted from their main message or their attempt at a main message, which is about delivering on equity, inclusion, justice for all, and raising awareness of racism in American society.
		But I think there's another level, and I find this part tragic, which is in their reluctance to engage in sort of hierarchical leadership, they also didn't engage in accountable leadership.
		So you get people who are saying things, doing things like defund the police, all different places and claiming their Black Lives Matter.
		And it's also the case that huge amounts of money flowed into Black Lives Matter.
		And the accountability for that money, oftentimes not there.
		No transparency.
		And then reports about money going into pockets of friends or relatives or being misspent or unaccounted for totally.
		Again, hurting the larger agenda of Black Lives Matter.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Could or should Barack Obama have done more to hold the movement accountable?
		You say he, that moment in 2004, he started this second civil rights movement.
		Could he have been more of that voice or did he try to do that?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, first, let me just say he didn't say that he started.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I said he started.
unidentified		Yes.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		And he's always said, you know, he's not the post-racial president.
		He's not the black president.
		He's the president of the United States of America.
		So I think it was a very difficult dance for him.
		Well, I mentioned to you at the very start of the book, I talk about Ferguson and the question about does he go to Ferguson?
		And ultimately he doesn't.
		But the question is there because there'd never been a black president.
		There'd never been the idea that you would send a president into a race riot type situation.
		But with a black president, there was the notion that maybe he could offer some kind of soothing message that would resolve this issue.
		But when it comes to Obama, I think you've seen Obama in various speeches, and this is part of the difference with Jesse Jackson and others.
		He's been very clear.
		You've got to have compromise.
		You've got to, you may be so resolute and so righteous in your indignation over a racist act or whatever, but you've got to deal with politics and people and even people who oppose you in devising some resolution to the problem.
		And so Obama was, I think, always reaching out, trying to get those young people not only to work with him, but at times to come to Washington, to come to the White House.
		It was extraordinary.
		But what is so interesting to me is the disdain, especially even you can see it persist, among young people who say politics is just not for them or they don't trust it.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		St. Paul, Minnesota, this is Mark Line for Republicans.
unidentified		You are on with Juan Williams.
		Mr. Williams, you made reference to Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown.
		It is my recollection that with the Trayvon Martin situation, that there was an eyewitness who said that he was grounding and pounding George Zimmerman with regard to Trayvon or with regard to Michael Brown rather.
		It's my recollection that there were multiple witnesses who indicated that the hands-up, don't shoot incident never happened, that the police officer, Darren Wilson, I believe was his name, Darren Wilson, that Michael Brown was struggling with Darren Wilson to get his gun away from him.
		I'm wondering, Mr. Williams, do you feel that both of these individuals in these respective incidents were faultless or blameless?
		Thank you.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, not faultless and certainly not blameless.
		Look, in the Trayvon Martin case, I think it's reported very clearly that Trayvon Martin was coming home with a drink and candies and was not involved in any criminal activity of any kind.
		Nobody says that.
		When he was stopped by this volunteer security guard, confronted.
		Then they get into a struggle, ground and pound, whatever.
		Some fight breaks out, but Trayvon Martin's not the one with the gun and not the one who shoot.
		And obviously he is the one who sadly is killed at 17 years of age.
		So, I mean, that's the fact of that case.
		And in the other one, there's lots of arguments about, you know, exactly what took place and, you know, hands up, don't shoot.
		Was it said?
		Was it not said?
		But again, what's obvious in that case, and there, Darren Wilson, the police officer, was found not responsible.
		But again, what happens is the young man's body is left in the street for several hours.
		People are alarmed by this.
		People feel like, you know, again, I don't know what the young man had done or what he was up to, they say, but black lives matter.
		Why would you treat him in this fashion?
		So I think you have to understand sort of the larger picture here.
		Some people, I think especially on the right, would say, oh, well, there's some way that you could say that these young men were responsible for their demise.
		And I think there's a larger picture that says, okay, these young men, certainly not in Trayvon Martin's case, though, may have been up to something or something was going on.
		But is that the end result that we black, white, Asian, Hispanic would want for our own child in this situation, that they would end up dead like this?
		Obviously not.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Question from Edward in Keyport, New Jersey.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Mr. Williams, will we end the racial wealth gap in our lifetime in America?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		So this is a key point in terms of the second movement.
		I'm so glad you asked this question because again, there's all this conversation about things like the phrase systemic racism or critical race theory.
		And it's oftentimes said in a very condemning way that what is this?
		You know, what are you talking about?
		But again, this is a part of what we're dealing with in the second civil rights movement.
		And much of this comes back to income inequality, John.
		And people saying if you look, you know, I talked to before about poor quality schools, especially in black and Latino neighborhoods.
		And we still have hyper-segregation, high levels of black and Latinos in schools attended by blacks and Latinos, almost to the exclusion of whites.
		And then you come forward from that toward employment opportunities, high rates of incarceration, mass incarceration, even on death row.
		You look over the last 40 years, it's like 30 plus percent of the people who've been executed are black men when blacks are about 13 percent of the population.
		So you've come to understand all of this then makes for this moment in a second civil rights era.
		Even as people say to me, are you sure this is a second movement?
		It's just not a first movement.
		No, this is different.
		And again, the demographics are different.
		The imperatives are different.
		The agenda is different.
		And the leadership is different.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Akron, Ohio, this is Mike Independent.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Good morning.
unidentified		Yes, good morning.
		Thank you for C-SPAN.
		Yes, I was raised Catholic.
		As a Catholic, I had quite a bit of Catholic guilt, as it is.
		I don't see any need for white guilt, but I do believe I benefited from white privilege.
		There's no doubt about that.
		I went to public schools up to the eighth grade, went to an all-boys Jesuit high school after that.
		And I'm in love with Pope Francis.
		I hope he gets better.
		I'm a Jesuit through and through in that regard.
		But I must say that I went to Kent State back in 1971, and I had a black roommate, very informative, to say the least.
		We were both worried about the four students who were signed and killed at May 4th in 1970.
		And he was also concerned about the Jackson State, which happened a few weeks earlier in Mississippi.
		Very tremendous times at that time, to say the least.
		I remember him telling me how difficult it was for his parents to switch parties back in 1964.
		They said that they loved Kennedy, but in 1960, he had charisma, but they voted for Nixon because Nixon was true to Eisenhower, and they liked Eisenhower.
		But in 1964, they changed Goldwater scared them, and he said they broke down in tears that to leave the GOP was not an easy job for his parents to do, but they had to do that.
		They voted for Linda Johnson.
		I learned a lot having a black roommate in college, more than I could ever learn in the textbook.
		One last thing, if I may say, when it comes to President Obama, I remember watching somebody on Fox News, I think they were on the Bill O'Reilly show, and they criticized his heritage, claiming that his father was an anti-colonialist from Kenya, and his mother was a hippie from Kansas.
		And I'm thinking, wow, was hippie from Kansas in 1962?
		Did they have hippies in Kansas back then?
		I mean, hippies on the east and west coast are a dying dozen, but a hippie from Kansas must be extremely precious.
		In other words, they were insulting both sides of his family, both his mother and his father.
		I think that's just beyond the pale.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		It's Mike in Ohio, Juan Williams.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, look, you know, if people get personal ad hominem in these attacks, and especially someone of such a high profile as Obama, I just think it's unfortunate.
		And again, because it's petty is why I think it's unfortunate.
		It really doesn't speak to the historical significance of what Obama did in terms of becoming the first black president.
		But even on a larger scale, and this is what I've written about in New Prize for These Eyes, helping America launch a new civil rights era in which we think about race differently.
		And I think a lot of the kind of pettiness that you referred to is from people who really don't want to open their own eyes to what's taking place now in this new era where you have, as I said, about a 60% population that's white,
		not 90%, and in which you have varying voices, people of different races, not only black, but the Latino, the Asians, immigrants, high rates of immigration, creating a kind of churn in the discussion about what is appropriate in this multiracial, multi-ethnic America.
		What's legitimate in terms of consideration of race opportunity and the rest.
		It's very difficult.
		And people, I think, sometimes have a nostalgia for when it was simply, you know, a mostly white America and you didn't have to hear all these contesting voices raising different issues.
		You know, discussions of race can make us uncomfortable.
		But when you hear something like Donald Trump, President Trump the other day, after a plane crash, say, you know, diversity, equity, and inclusion is to blame without any evidence, you think, something's going on here.
		Why would the president of the United States stoop to that level?
		Why would he do that?
		You know, he's a guy who said that Black Lives Matter is a hate symbol.
		He's the guy who pardons insurrectionists with ties to white supremacist groups.
		He's a guy who's been endorsed by the KKK.
		And you understand something very important in terms of racial discussion and racial tension is taking place in America at this time.
		And that's why I wrote New Prize for These Eyes.
		We're in the midst of a second civil rights movement.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And you begin your new book with this quote from Barack Obama from before he was president at the 2007 Selma Voting Rights Commemoration.
		Here's the quote.
		The previous generation, the Moses generation, pointed the way.
		They took us 90% of the way there.
		So the question, I guess, that I have today is what's called of us in this Joshua generation?
		What do we do in order to fulfill that legacy, to fulfill the obligations and the debt that we owe to those who allowed us to be here today?
		What is the Moses generation and the Joshua generation?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		So I think, John, you and I both seen the Martin Luther King Memorial on the National Mall here in Washington, D.C. Dr. King is a revered figure.
		That's the Moses generation, if you wanted to personify it and say it's just him.
		Obviously, you had people like Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, John Lewis, the former congressman who was the head of SNCC.
		You think of them as people who were, again, parting the waters, if you will, the Moses generation, to create a moment of opportunity for their children to come.
		We are now living through here in the early 21st century, the Joshua generation, the young people who are now trying to establish a new way of life in terms of race in America.
		And Obama, in that speech, is asking what is called on us to do?
		What is our responsibility to live up to the great sacrifices that were made by people in that first civil rights era?
		And again, to me, it's very clear that we have to establish an agenda that allows for alliances to be built.
		And when I say alliances, I'm talking about between Black Lives Matter and MAGA, you know, the Make America Great Trump people.
		I'm thinking they have to talk to each other.
		I think you have to allow Black Lives Matter.
		You were asking me about them earlier.
		I don't see that you saw Black Lives Matter create alliances with people who were invested in abortion rights and abortion opposition and say, wait a minute, there's an opportunity for people to work together on what is a powerful political issue in this era.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Was the fear of losing sight of the goal of the Black Lives Matter movement if you start to do that and you make those alliances?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I think that could be, John.
		I mean, you know, it's just not clear because again, you didn't have a set group of people as the leadership.
		It was diffuse of Black Lives Matter.
		And so you had different people with different agendas and different willingness to reach out.
		You had some people who were willing to reach out to the LGBTQ community, others who were not.
		You had people who were willing to say we have to have discussions with politicians, local politicians, and others who were not.
		So it's not clear.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So do you think this will be the lesson of the second civil rights movement?
		You talk about a third civil rights movement.
		Does a third civil rights movement, in your mind, more likely have a Martin Luther King figure, male or female, somebody that is leading that movement, talking about accountability, making those alliances, and less diffuse than what we've seen in the second?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I'm not sure about if it's going to be less diffuse or more concentrated and centralized in terms of that leadership.
		But I think that to your point, you think of someone like a Stacey Abrams in Georgia, who was in the state legislature, but then led, even as a politician, very civil rights activist type policy in terms of fighting voter suppression that then led to Georgia electing a Jewish senator and a black senator.
		I don't think there's any question that was powerful, progressive action by a politician.
		Or was it by an activist?
		Well, she's a politician.
		Do you get people like that now in a third movement?
		Do you get the alliances across racial lines, maybe even across political lines?
		But that's what you need.
		I think in this moment with so much tension around President Trump and race, people tend to forget that Black Lives Matter is still well thought of by a majority of Americans.
		You know, it used to be like 60% of white people embraced Black Lives Matter after the George Floyd incident.
		70% of Latinos, 80% of blacks.
		Well, now it's about 50% plus, but it's still a majority of Americans think this is right.
		Think that diversity, equity, and inclusion, even as Trump attacks it, think that, you know what, we do have to make sure there's a level playing field for all of us, regardless of race in America.
		And we have to understand the history of this country and the disadvantage given to people of color and women.
		People think, oh, yeah, of course, that's, but you wouldn't know it in this moment because everything is so polarized and people are at each other's throats.
		But yes, in terms of a third movement, you're going to have to have leadership of some kind that's willing to form alliances and do business with politicians, win elections.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		About 15 minutes left with Juan Williams this morning.
		The book, again, just out last month, New Prize for These Eyes, The Rise of America's Second Civil Rights Movement.
		Juan Williams on his book tour.
		He'll be out in Tucson next month, and C-SPAN's Book TV will be covering the Tucson Festival of Books.
		So you can see them, see Juan Williams there as well.
		And you have about 15 minutes left to call in and ask him your questions.
		This is Lonnie in North Carolina.
		Democrat, good morning.
		Thanks for waiting.
unidentified		Yes, top of the morning to all you guys.
		I was just thinking about the election we just had and a lot of people saying that a lot of blacks didn't show up for Kamala.
		But look, I want to let you guys know that I'm a black African American and I do love this country.
		But I was just thinking about all the white women who was about abortion and all the Hispanics who was about at least trying to get ahead in America, just like the Palestinians and just like the old white women who talk about the eggs are high and the bacon is high.
		Can you tell me something?
		We talk about a lot of things about civil rights, but it just goes to the point of civil, but not right.
		All I know is this.
		We got a president in there right now who will do everything he can to eliminate the black race.
		It's all about us.
		It's not about the Hispanics or the white women.
		It's about us.
		Now they're going through the archives of the Kennedy who assassinated both of them and Martin Luther King.
		Now, I want to remind you, when it comes to the end of this, and I want to see if you can speak on this, there's going to be things that's going to come out that's going to try to get the black America in the streets again.
		But I hope my people don't fall for the yokey doke.
		They want us in the streets for him to show his dominant power.
		But I just want to see if you could respond on that for me, please, if that could be one of the scenarios of this white racist.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		You know, so again, to me, You know, I'm a journalist and I, you know, I try to, John was asking me before what was the difference between writing about a first civil rights movement that was in the past and writing about a civil rights movement, the second civil rights movement in New Prize for These Eyes that I see taking place right now.
		So you're talking about something that hasn't happened, that could happen.
		I hope it doesn't happen.
		But I understand what you're talking about because I see, you know, it's unbelievable to me the kind of antagonism being directed at people of color, progressives, Democrats from this White House.
		It's, you know, I think they're trying to stir people up.
		And I don't know what, you know, to what end.
		I don't know.
		It plays to grievance politics, I guess.
		It might be like skim the liberals, you know, go after the Democrats.
		I don't, but it's not bringing us together.
		It's not unifying politics.
		And you said you think it's aimed all at blacks.
		Who can ignore the fact that the president of the United States recently promoted or hired a man who wrote that if you want things done right in America, you have to get a white male to do it.
		And, you know, the guy wrote this in October.
		He's working for Trump now.
		This is, you know, or talks about immigrants poisoning the blood of the nation.
		These are things that are very divisive.
		And to your mind, it could be that he wants people in the streets.
		He wants people angry and stirred up.
		And then he's going to display his power.
		Well, we've seen a little bit of that, again, with Black Lives Matter.
		If you remember after the George Floyd case, people protesting in Lafayette Square and Trump coming out of the White House with General Miley and others and people being pushed aside and beaten.
		You know, I hope not, but maybe you're more prophetic than I am, but I hope not.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		When January 6th gets talked about, and especially in wake of the pardons, Donald Trump often points back to Black Lives Matter and riots in cities and cities burning.
		You talk a little bit about that in the book.
		What do you make of Donald Trump making that comparison or switching to that discussion when January 6th comes up?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Oh, again, it's self-serving.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		You know, again, I think it's so telling, John, that the way that he talked about Black Lives Matter protests would make you think that these were overwhelmingly violent, disruptive protests.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Cities burning.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Cities burned.
		And yet, when people who monitor protests globally looked at the Black Lives Matter marches and protests in this country, they said 90 plus percent were peaceful marches.
		So instead of focusing on the good, here was Trump picking on instances where there were fights or there was a fire or somebody looted a store and saying that is the true nature of Black Lives Matter.
		And it's just not true.
		And again, I just want to reiterate, more than two-thirds of white Americans supported Black Lives Matter after the George Floyd murder.
		And most of the people who marched were white Americans.
		I mean, but you wouldn't know that listening to the kind of rhetoric that you heard from President Trump back in 2020.
		And so when he talks about the cities and the, you know, cities are corrupt and filled with crime.
		And I think, you know, again, think about his claim of election fraud.
		Where was it aimed?
		At those very same cities.
		What's going on in those cities?
		Higher populations of minorities, especially blacks.
		And he's saying that somehow they're not with him.
		They're cheating him.
		You know, to me, it's a very not only divisive, but demagoguery of a type that can lead to trouble.
		And I think you heard some of that from our previous caller.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Chris in Birmingham, Alabama, writes this.
		We will celebrate the 60th anniversary of the Selma to Montgomery March.
		Do you see any landmark legislation on the horizon that is needed for our country to continue to progress?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Well, obviously, after the George Floyd case, there was a big effort here in Washington at police reform.
		And it was interesting to me.
		You saw people like Mitch McConnell and others say, I'm open to this, you know, open to this idea.
		But it was stopped ultimately.
		You know, the police unions and working with some people who were far right wouldn't agree to the terms necessary for a police reform bill.
		I think that would make a big difference in terms of legislation here in the second civil rights movement because the whole notion of police brutality and how police deal with young black people, you know, think about the argument over stop and frisk in New York and other places and what's legitimate, what's not legitimate, what's antagonistic and what's fair.
		This is the conversation that we need to have.
		We need to have an honest conversation about race and policing.
		Here I'm sitting talking to John.
		I'm a black man living in Washington, D.C.
		I often say to people, I know that if I'm shot and killed on the street, it's more likely that the shooter is going to be a black teenager than a white cop.
		So I want to have a conversation about violence, crime, police.
		I go into the corner stores and the drugstores and see the things, the key items that are locked up because of high levels of theft and shoplifting.
		I think this is ridiculous.
		This is crazy.
		This is a conversation that we as Americans can have and need to have, but at the moment we're not having because things are so polarized and people are told don't have that conversation.
		You could say the wrong thing.
		You don't want to take that risk.
		I think we need to take that risk.
		And I think that's sort of the optimistic vision.
		You know how Obama's famous campaign sign was H-O-P-E, hope.
		And my hope is that we are now maybe post-Trump at the point where people will say, you know what, we need to have an honest conversation in this country because we are such a racial mix.
		And for us to succeed and not allow the Chinese and the Russians and others to divide us, we have to come to some understanding among ourselves.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		Just a few minutes left with Juan Williams, the book again, new prize for these eyes, the rise of America's second civil rights movement.
		This is Stephen in Dewey, Arizona, Republican.
		Good morning.
unidentified		Good morning.
		I'd like to just say that the people, the minorities that I know that voted for Republican this time, in all respect to Juan and his views, is they don't want to be told how to think.
		And there's a lot of that going on on the other side.
		Being told that you have to vote Democrat because of your minority status, I think a lot of people are turned off by that today.
		I'd like to know Mr. Juan's comments on that.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		Sure.
		Anybody who's trying to tell you how you should vote or what you should do, I think people will get turned off.
		And we were talking, John and I were talking earlier.
		John asked me why is it that about a quarter of young black men and 50% of Latino men voted for Trump, given what we're discussing here this morning.
		And the answer is they don't like the status quo, I think.
		They don't want to be told how to think about their circumstances and about their opportunities in life and what they see as an uncertain future.
		They want politicians who are speaking to their interests and helping them move forward and their families move forward.
		But, you know, again, when you think about those young people, you have to understand that even today, now that Trump is in office, the numbers have shifted.
		Now it's the case overwhelmingly, like 80% plus of blacks disapprove of what Trump has been doing, this kind of attacks on DEI that we've been discussing, John.
		But it's interestingly, Latinos are almost in the same place, close to 80% opposition, or I think it was 69, 70% opposition to Trump at this moment.
		Now that he's in office, whites still approve of Trump, and that's why his numbers, I think he's over 50% approval generally at the moment.
		But you should understand that where you saw some erosion in terms of black and Latino and even women support for Trump during the election, now, as Trump is in office and the chaos ensues and the racial division ensues, you're seeing again that blacks and Latinos in particular are coming together in opposition to Trump.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The final paragraph of your latest book, New Prize for These Eyes, ends this way.
		The second civil rights movement is the door to a burgeoning third civil rights movement.
		You've talked a little bit about that.
		What are the goals in your mind?
		What would be the goals of a third civil rights movement?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		I think when I talk to you about conversation, honest conversation, leading to us as Americans trying to achieve justice for all and a sense of common destiny and common goals, I think that's the goal of a third civil rights movement.
		It's, you know, it's John saying, Juan, I see you as human, and Juan saying, John, I see you as human.
		I understand we're both in this together.
		We're both trying to do a good job.
		We're both journalists, whatever.
		Both live here in this town or whatever.
		But we want some progress.
		We don't want to just be locked in to the anger, the division, the polarization.
		We want to have some sense of progress and movement, movement in terms of race relations in a positive light.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		So it begs the question in our final minute or so here: how does the second civil rights movement end?
		Your book is about the rise of Americans, America's second civil rights movement.
		How does it end?
		When does it end?
		And how does that third movement begin?
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		So if you think back, let's stick with the first to second movement.
		I'm not sure that I would say at this moment the first movement ended.
		What I saw was that a second movement began with Obama opening this door to the idea of post-racial that we could get away from the arguments and the kind of principles that defined the first civil rights movement, which was segregation, slavery, segregation, legal discrimination, and the like.
		So you start a second civil rights movement in post-racial terms.
		And I think a third civil rights movement, John, comes when people, again, say we need to move beyond this kind of very acidic division that's taking us nowhere.
		But how do we do it?
		And I don't know if we rise up and say as a group, you know what, I understand that there is no right and wrong.
		Instead, there is an America in which we see each other as our best opportunity for a good future for our children.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		The book, again, new prize for these eyes, the rise of America's second civil rights movement.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		You know the author Juan Williams, and we always appreciate your time.
juan williams ▲ ● ▼		John, thanks for having me this morning.
john mcardle ▲ ● ▼		And that's going to do it for us this morning on the Washington Journal.
		We'll, of course, be back here tomorrow morning.
		It's 7 a.m. Eastern.
		It's 4 a.m. Pacific.
		In the meantime, happy President's Day.
		have a great Monday.
unidentified		C-SPAN's Washington Journal, our live forum inviting you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics, and public policy.
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		Then Natasha Hall, MIDI's program senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
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		Secretary of State Rubio and U.S. Special Envoy to the Middle East Steve Witkoff are leading a delegation in Saudi Arabia for talks on the Russia-Ukraine war and advancing a solution to the situation in Gaza.
		The Washington Post is reporting that Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov will lead the Russia negotiators.
		He has been quoted as saying that the time has come to normalize relations between the United States and Russia.
		This week's talks are a prelude to a planned meeting between President Trump and Vladimir Putin, according to the Kremlin, and follows a 90-minute call between the two leaders last week.
		Ukrainian leaders not present at the meetings in Riyadh are expected to be allowed to participate in the final negotiations.
		The U.S. team was greeted by Saudi Arabian leader Mohammed bin Salman.
		Here's a short look at their meeting.
		We have a lot of things to talk about, and also the region, and other areas.
		So we want to have to go with you, and with President Trump and the situation, and we have to talk about what's the case, so you're going to have to work, and also for many countries around the world.
		So you know this.
		Your Highness, yeah, Mike Waltz, National Security Advisor.
		Yeah, of course.
		We look at the picture of the picture.
		I believe I should take off the spot.
		For me, I won't have a friend, but he's very interested and doesn't need much.
		Thank you.
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