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Good morning.
It's Friday, December 27th, 2024.
A three -hour Washington Journal is ahead, and we begin on the topic of the death penalty.
This week, President Joe Biden commuted the sentences of 37 people on federal death row, converting their punishments to life in prison.
The move comes just weeks before the inauguration of President -elect Donald Trump, a proponent of expanding capital punishment.
This morning.
We begin by getting your view on the use of the death penalty in America.
We're doing so on phone lines split this way.
If you support the use of the death penalty, 202 -748 -8000 is the number to call.
If you oppose the use of the death penalty, 202 -748 -8001.
If you're not sure, a phone line for you, 202 -748 -8002.
You can also send us a text, that number 202 -748 -8003.
If you do, please include your name and where you're from.
Otherwise, catch up with us on social media.
On X, it's at C -SPAN WJ.
On Facebook, it's facebook .com slash C -SPAN.
And a very good Friday morning to you.
You can go ahead and start calling in now.
This was the headline from Monday by the Associated Press.
President Biden gives life.
In prison to 37 of 40 federal death row inmates before Trump can resume executions.
This was the statement that President Biden put out along with that move.
Make no mistake, he said in that statement, I condemn these murderers, grieve for the victims of their despicable acts, and ache for all the families who have suffered unimaginable and irreparable loss.
But guided by my conscience and my experience as a public defender, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Vice President and now President, I am more convinced than ever that we must stop the use of the death penalty at the federal level in good conscience.
I cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that I halted.
That was President Biden on Monday.
It was followed by a statement on Truth Social by Donald Trump.
This is what he said.
The president -elect saying, as soon as I'm inaugurated, I will direct the Justice Department to vigorously pursue the death penalty to protect American families and children from violent rapists and murderers and monsters.
We will be a nation of law and order again, promised the president -elect.
We're good to go.
I think?
Yes, sir.
I believe in the death penalty because it sends a message to people who have committed horrible crimes of killing people and stuff, even if they were high,
that you are going to be held accountable for what you do.
And if we just keep putting people on death row and commute them, then...
Hey, you know, three meals and a cod.
I've run into people that's been their attitude.
So the move by President Biden this week, you think it will lead to more violent crime, Mark?
I think we're already seeing it.
A lady burned on a subway, I think in New York City.
The guy that shot the CEO of the insurance company.
Mark, thanks for the call from Oklahoma this morning.
Did you want to keep going, Mark?
Did you have something else you wanted to add?
Yeah, I'll add one more thing.
When I was in school, they let them know and there was a woman that was executed in Texas.
And that perked everybody up, even the ladies.
Oh, fudge.
We crossed the line.
Lady Justice is blind.
We're good to go.
I think?
We're good to go.
I think?
We're good to go.
Again, death...
Good morning.
Yeah, I'd like to call in and give my opinion on opposing the death penalty because all life is precious.
And if we're killing a person for their crimes, Aren't we becoming what they tell us not to be?
Judge, jury, and executioner?
You should never murder somebody.
And capital punishment is a form of murder, because you're purposely taking someone's life.
I just think that it needs to end.
There's something to be learned from everybody, even criminals.
If we have psychologists look at them, maybe we can find triggers that would help that, seeing it and recognizing in younger people the triggers that these people that are on death row,
things that they went through when they were younger that led them to be the criminal that they became.
Steve, what did you think of Joe Biden commuting the sentences of 37 people but leaving three people still on death row?
Well, with the Dylan Roof and the man, I forget his name, from the Boston Marathon and the other one,
I don't think that they should be executed.
I do, though, think that they should never see the light of day as far as outside of a penal system.
I think that they should be locked away for their crimes.
However, I do believe that there's something to be learned from them.
I mean, geez, Dylan Roof was, what, 19 years old when he committed that crime?
How did that young man get so lost?
Why didn't somebody in society, in his school, as a teenager, something...
Go ahead, finish up, Steve.
That's Steve in Indiana.
Eddie in Louisiana.
Good morning, you're next.
Good morning.
What are your thoughts on the death penalty, Eddie?
Myself, I believe the only way to stop these murders is to start the hangman again, like they done many years ago, like they forced Smith Arkansas to hang Judge Parker.
They hung six outlaws who were murderers, and they still got the hangman.
I think myself, they well deserve to be hung.
They should have a lamppost and some, say, five -acre place that has six lampposts.
And everyone that commits a crime like that, they should be hung to the top of that lamppost and leave them up there for the birds to eat them.
That's what I believe.
That's Eddie in Louisiana from the National Park Service website.
Fort Smith, Arkansas, National Historic Site.
Judge Isaac C. Parker, remembered in Western novels and films as the hanging judge.
Isaac Parker's real career and accomplishments in the Fort Smith area are far more fascinating and complicated, they write.
Sensational cases and executions overshadowed Parker's contributions, they say, in rehabilitating defenders, reforming the criminal justice system.
And advocating for the rights of Indian nations, Judge Isaac C. Parker in the late 19th century.
This is Chris in Wisconsin.
Good morning.
Hi, good morning.
Thank you.
Just a quick statement is, until you can make sure mistakes aren't made, you know, death penalty is not a sentence that can be reversed if a mistake is made.
Yes, good morning.
That's exactly how I felt.
There were mistakes that were made.
And I think a lot of it's political.
It seems like when a governor or somebody's up for election, then they decide to put somebody on death row.
And I think we have to be very careful on the reasons and not to...
I think we have to pray to the Lord that we're not making...
These mistakes and ruining lives that can be turned around.
Thank you.
Sylvia Virginia, on the Boston bomber, Joe Carzar -Niav, one of the three federal death row inmates that were left on death row after this move by President Joe Biden on Monday.
This is what Cal Thomas of the Washington Times writes, op -ed writer, C -SPAN viewers familiar with Cal Thomas.
This is what CS Lewis called the humanitarian view of punishment.
I think they ought to keep the death penalty, but only in certain things like...
If it's not an eyeball murder, I don't believe.
And if it's circumstantial, I don't believe in the death penalty.
But I do believe when they're sentenced to life in prison, they should serve life in prison.
And I'd like to say one other thing.
And this is for C -SPAN, which I've watched ever since my cable company put it on in 79.
There's nothing in this world as terrible to me as rudeness.
And for you people to hang up on people and not let them know they are no longer talking to you is about as rude as you can get.
Thank you for your time.
Ed, thanks for the call.
This is Jim in Lawrenceville, Virginia.
Good morning.
Good morning, America.
How y 'all doing?
Doing well, Jim.
What are your thoughts on the death penalty?
Well, I'm a man of God, but I support the laws on the book, and I believe there's not enough of a deterrent.
We've been too nice here.
They have nothing.
I think we need to bring back the hanging, firing squad, and the gas chamber.
That's not enough deterrent.
If the laws are on the book, use it.
I disagree with President Biden.
Letting those guys off the hook is too much crime.
There's a price you have to pay.
I don't believe in killing, but if the law is there, use it.
We need to bring back all this lethal injection.
No, we need hanging, firing squad, gas chamber, a deterrent.
What do you think?
That's Jim in Virginia.
We've been showing you the website, the Death Penalty Information Center, a lot of info there about the size of the death row inmate population in the country, what it looks like, where they're located.
Earlier this month, we had Robin Mayer of the Death Penalty Information Center on this program to discuss calls for President Biden to commute those sentences.
This interview before that move by President Joe Biden on Monday.
She's explained why they were supporting those calls.
Well, there's lots of good reasons.
First of all, this is an enormous coalition of people who are attempting to persuade President Biden.
Organizations, racial justice organizations and civil rights organizations, many individuals, religious organizations and faith leaders like We're good to go.
I think?
All of these people are calling on President Biden to commute these sentences because they see long -standing systemic problems with the federal death penalty, the way that it has been used.
Talk about some of those problems.
Sure.
Well, probably the most important is that it has been used in an arbitrary and racially discriminatory way.
This is an issue that has been studied repeatedly.
It's well documented.
Even DOJ officials have acknowledged.
These very serious concerns over the years.
So we see that predominantly the federal death penalty has been used against people of color and it's been used against people of color who have killed white people.
So we know that there is a very pronounced race of victim bias as well.
And we can see that in all of the statistics and all of the data that we've seen throughout the history of the death penalty.
For example, three out of four people who have been charged with a federal death sentence are people of color.
And that has been true since 1989.
So these are really powerful statistics.
We also know that the federal death penalty has many of the same problems that state death penalty systems have, which is to say we've had prosecutorial misconduct, we've had That interview from earlier this month.
President Biden on Monday makes that move to commute the sentences of 37 of 40 federal death row inmates.
And then this was the reaction in the wake of that move on Monday from members of Congress on Capitol Hill.
Senator Peter Welch, the Democrat, saying federal executions don't lead to safer communities.
The president correctly paused them because it's impossible to ignore the number of people exonerated from death row.
This is the right move.
It ensures these individuals will never pose a threat to public safety.
This Senator Tom Cotton, the Republican from Arkansas.
Joe Biden is using his last days in office to spare the worst monsters in America.
These killers were sentenced to death by a jury of their peers and then had a lengthy and burdensome appeals process.
Chip Roy, the Republican from Texas, saying it's unconscionable.
The president's pardon power is being abused by Joe Biden to carry out a miscarriage of justice.
The rule of law depends on our faith in it.
Good morning.
How are you doing?
I just want to say, C -SPAN, you're doing a good job.
I mean, yeah, no, everybody wants to talk forever, but you guys aren't rude.
You're just doing your job.
But anyways, yeah, I'm kind of divided on that.
This is one of the things where I never try to put my religious views in the public domain, but to force other people to go along with it.
But, you know, the Bible says, whosoever sheds man's blood by...
Man, his blood shall be shed.
And that was before the Mosaic Law.
That's a natural law thing.
But without a doubt, you know, the system, especially with Trump's, all the federal judges Trump supported, they're definitely going to go after black people more.
I mean, like, Dylann Roof wasn't even charged with terrorism like the CEO killer was.
I mean, that shows you something right there.
Somebody goes into a black church and kills nine people.
And they're not even charged with terror, but he did get the death totally because he killed people.
But anyways, um you know um, I got punched in the back of the head by a homeless guy.
If I turned around on the subway and killed him, I wouldn't, I probably would have gotten death penalty.
Not a hero, i'm a marine too, but that's a different story.
Um I I um yeah, I tend to think um, Cal Thomas is wrong.
It's evangelicals who choose to be pro -life when they want to.
When Trayvon Martin got killed, Huckabee was on Fox News every day cheering George Zimmerman.
When a black person gets killed even by a civilian, right -wingers, they just salivate like vampires and wolves.
One last thing.
In Missouri, the governor...
You knew the guy was innocent.
The black guy was innocent.
The prosecutor said he's innocent.
The victim's family said he's innocent.
And they still execute the black guy.
Where have all the pro -life people been?
You know?
That's all I gotta say.
It's Nelson in California, Missouri, one of those states where the death penalty still exists and is active.
This is that map from the Death Penalty Information Center.
The states in red, the 22 states in red on that map are states where the death penalty exists and is active.
The states in yellow are states that do not have a death penalty.
The states in blue, the five states on that map in blue We're good to go.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
The death row population is down to three at this point after the action by President Joe Biden on Monday.
This is Carlos in Ohio.
Good morning.
You're next.
Judy, Waynesburg, Pennsylvania.
Good morning.
You're next.
Judy, you're with us.
Yes, I am.
Go ahead, ma 'am.
Alright, thank you.
I am opposed to the death penalty.
I don't think it's the right of the state to kill other people.
Secondly, I don't think it's either a deterrent.
People have been killing forever and ever and ever, and we've had the death penalty forever and ever and ever.
So that isn't anything that stops.
Furthermore, I've heard that it costs more to execute because of all the legal ramifications than it does to keep someone in prison for life.
Prison in life is no wonderful thing, and certainly is day after day after punishment.
So I am very much opposed to the death penalty.
- Mike's next, out of Detroit.
Good morning.
Go ahead.
- Yes.
I have a little different spin on why I support the death penalty.
First of all, you have these privately owned prisons.
That makes a tremendous amount of money on people who have uh the evidence because of the new technology and uh, it's easier to find out if someone actually committed a crime and, like in the Middle East, they let the families determine if someone has been convicted of murder to have them uh killed uh.
Second of all, I also uh think that when you involved in mass murders, like say, for instance, uh when presidents in Congress votes to go into wars, that's unjustifiable like, for instance, in Iraq, where there was no weapons of mass destruction and yet hundreds of thousands of people were killed.
Who who's, where's the responsibility for that?
Where's the responsibility for the genocides that Western culture committed in the Americas?
from Canada all the way down to South America?
It's a documentary called The Extermination of the Brutes, where they said that it was about at least 200 million native indigenous people in this country.
And they committed mass murder.
They're talking about Gaza.
They committed mass murder to get this country.
So let's start looking at when people invite people to wars unjustifiably.
Who should be held accountable?
Should the president?
Should the Congress voting to go to war and it's not a good war?
Should these people be held accountable?
Last point I wanted to make in regards to the death penalty.
It is a deterrent because when people recognize that if they take a life, that their life is going to be taken,
that will make them think about committing murder.
Plus, when you have people in jail over extended periods of time.
That's Mike in Detroit.
We'll stay in Michigan.
Caspian, Michigan, this is Robert.
Good morning.
Less of a deterrent than life in prison.
Life in prison is more dangerous to the person than the death penalty.
You put somebody to death real quick, like, and it's over.
He doesn't have to live day after day after day.
And one more thing.
I wish you would stop putting a picture of Donald Trump on the lower right -hand corner because it's showing bias towards the Republican Party.
That's Robert in Michigan.
This is Kem in Jackson Heights, New York.
Good morning.
You're next.
These 37 who are guilty of murder, their souls will go to hell.
They will not be with God.
But if we cut their lives short prematurely, that is what will happen.
But their sentences have been commuted.
They're going to spend the rest of their life in prison.
And God hopes, and I hope, that they will come to an understanding. Of what they did and redeem themselves and then their souls can be with God.
But that can only happen if we allow them to have their natural lifespan.
If we cut their natural lifespan off early, their souls will not be with God.
But if we let them live in prison forever, no chance of parole, then they may redeem themselves truly in a way that God says their souls can be with me when they die.
And we should not stop people from having a chance of redemption and their souls taken away from God forever.
On President Biden's actions saying he abuses his pardon power in what he did on Monday.
And they talk about what happens sometimes if these people are allowed to remain in prison and move off death row.
This is the editorial board of The Washington Times.
Mr. Biden cites opposition to the death penalty as his underlying motive, but it's a mistake to pretend this end -of -term maneuver will save lives.
Among the midnight pardon beneficiaries is Carlos David Caro.
I think?
Okay.
Hello?
Go ahead, sir.
When those five young men were accused in Central Park of raping and attacking women, they were innocent.
And Mr. Trump came out and he took out full -page ads in local papers that they must bring back the death penalty because these young men deserve death penalty.
And he was totally innocent.
So that's the reason why I oppose the death penalty because we all make mistakes.
Nothing is perfect.
That's the reason I oppose it.
That's Ronnie in Brooklyn, New York.
David, Toledo, Ohio.
Good morning.
You're next.
If it turns out that Luigi Mangione has been convicted of murder and there's not the slightest doubt that he's guilty of murder if that happens to be the case,
then I would strongly be in favor of his execution.
I don't want my tax dollars supporting people who are definitely beyond the shadow of a doubt.
I don't want my tax dollars supporting them for life in prison.
Waste of time.
Thank you very much.
That's David in Ohio.
About 25 minutes left in this segment this morning.
Simply asking for your view of the death penalty in the wake of President Biden's actions earlier this week in the wake of that announcement that he was going to commute 37 of 40 federal death row inmates' sentences.
It was Illinois Democrat Mike Quigley who was on CNN and spoke out about his view about it.
Here's what he had to say.
I have real concerns overall with the death penalty, but I also have concerns with the executive branch overturning cases that have been decided by courts across the country.
We have to have some autonomy there.
And I understand the concerns.
Threats of a Trump administration going forward on these, but I think the baseline is I think you commute sentences or pardon people when you think justice was not done in those cases.
Uh, it sets a precedent here that goes well beyond his uh, pardoning his own son, which which again, I think was a mistake, because no one is above the law.
What I think you're getting at is an interesting point, which is almost like using commutations as a point of policy in order to stop the administration coming in next, putting in place policy that they believe, which does seem to be different from what you're looking at with Hunter Biden.
Absolutely, but it's concerned with how presidents handle pardons and how they handle commutations for their own reasons, their own personal reasons.
Back to the pardoning of his own son, I heard people say, Well, it's the love of a father.
I get that, but there's a lot of parents out there whose children are in harm's way in the justice system, and they don't have the ability to do what President Biden did.
Democrat Mike Quigley on CNN earlier this week, taking your phone calls in this first hour of the Washington Journal.
This is Bill in Boyertown, Pennsylvania.
Good morning.
You're next.
Good morning.
Yeah, I mean, I don't really know what I think about the death penalty.
I know the state.
We're good to go.
I think?
Young babies and abortion, there's no big deal about that anymore.
If you say anything about it, they look at you like you're crazy.
Thank God Trump got the Supreme Court turned around so that we did at least throw that to the states.
But as far as Biden and his commuting the sentences of death row inmates, He's shown his colors.
He's not calling the shots here.
His whole description of why he's doing it, which is, you know, it's not fair to kill people, but then you leave three people on the list.
It just doesn't hold water.
He is a doddering old man.
I think we should just maybe we should put him out of his misery like they're putting all killing all those brown people in Gaza.
Like they said, it's always the brown people or the black people that
And Bill, I really hope you're not calling for the president to be killed.
That's not what you're saying?
Look at how many people are being killed in Gaza with our bombs that he's sending there with his signature.
We don't even vote for that, but we have to arm the Israeli military while they're killing hundreds of, you know, tens of thousands of people.
Got your point.
That's Bill in Pennsylvania.
More stats on death row in the United States.
Earlier this fall, five prisoners executed in one week in the United States.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I'm opposed to the death penalty because I believe they suffer longer being life in prison and also because of God and you know like the other thing is that I understand President Biden wants to pardon those certain prisoners,
and that's fine, like I said, because I'm not for the death penalty.
But why is he for abortion?
You know?
So I'm not for abortion either.
And that's all I wanted to say.
Thank you.
Sal, Sewell, New Jersey.
Good morning.
You're next.
Hey, good morning.
Hi, Dylan.
Good morning, John.
I just like to support the death penalty because...
I watch a lot of these shows, Bloodline, and all these kind of murder shows, and they're true facts.
And you see that these murderers kill these little kids, rape them, and adults, and they get a second chance if they get away with the first time.
And they do the crimes all over again, killing all the innocent people and raping and killing.
So I believe it's simple.
There's no sense keeping them people alive.
So Sal, an earlier caller was giving the exact opposite view of what you just said.
He said as long as there's a chance for redemption...
I hear you.
I just feel bad for the victims because, you see, I understand where he's coming from, the person, but I see that when they take a life or a child's life, they abduct them, they rape them, they kill them, and they don't get caught.
They do the same thing again.
I don't care how many years they stay in prison.
I don't believe in second chance because them poor people, the victims and them families are never going to be the same.
So that's the way I see it.
Sal, thanks for the call from New Jersey.
Some of your comments from social media and our text message line.
This is Rob in Huntington, West Virginia.
I don't support the death penalty.
One, there's no data to indicate that the death penalty deters crime.
Two, it costs more to go through the process to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life.
Three, it's murder, which is wrong.
Rob saying, personally, I would rather be executed than live in a high -security prison for life.
This is Timothy from Facebook.
I don't trust the government to execute only the guilty.
Todd, Facebook, saying, I'm in favor of the death penalty as long as we are certain of who committed the crime.
James on Facebook, I've never been a fan of the death penalty.
It's inhumane, and many of those put to death were possibly innocent.
Life in prison without parole is the solution.
And one more, Larry's saying, I've always thought that life without parole is a far worse punishment than the death sentence.
The downside is that taxpayers have to spend more money on their longer -term care.
This is Keith, Madison, Wisconsin.
Good morning.
Thanks for waiting.
Good morning.
Yeah, I'm opposed to the death penalty.
I think it's an instrument of the capitalist state to terrorize their lower orders.
And as somebody else pointed out earlier, The ruling class, they can bomb and destroy and kill and murder with impunity, and they're never punished.
They're never held accountable.
All those weapons that we shipped over to Israel to have the Gazans murdered, the Holocaust over there in Gaza, no accountability by their side of the class line.
But our side, yep, we get a lot of accountability.
If anybody's watched the series on Netflix, I am a killer.
It'll put it kind of in perspective.
It'll make you think about your own self and the conditions that people are put in and how they turn into killers.
So yeah, when I watch that show, I think, well, but for the grace of God, go I.
I think, gee, if I were abused as a child, as many of those were, Those people who murdered later, maybe I would have turned out to be the same way.
So yeah, you ought to have a little bit of introspection when you talk about this subject, because this capitalist system will turn you insane.
It turned a girl that shot six, actually seven people at a school here in Madison, it turned her nuts.
Her parents were, she came from a broken family.
That's good.
In Wisconsin.
This is Thomas in Portland, Indiana.
Good morning.
Totally for the death penalty.
I believe that if anything can be done to deter someone from committing the crimes and they see someone, you know, getting killed, maybe that'll stop them.
People that are on death row, they have been through probably pretty much every bit of the system that they could.
I mean, if you listen to some of the details of some of these murders...
There's one that I can think of on TV.
They keep bringing up where the guy killed the eight -year -old and the nine -year -old.
Then four years later, he killed the woman in the National Guard or the services.
He took and stabbed that woman's eyes out.
I mean, come on.
The stuff these people do are so horrible, you can't even talk about it.
Stabbed the woman 30 -some times.
After killing those two little kids four years before.
I mean, there's no saving that.
That's it.
That's all I got to say.
I'm sorry.
Doreen, Camden, Ohio.
Good morning.
I'll keep it short, okay?
I support it because with all the technology we have nowadays with DNA and everything, and of course you've got the cameras with the young man that shot The CEO in the back, it's like,
if it's a 100%, there is no doubt these people need to be executed.
And that's just my thought on it because there are choices in life.
We all have them.
And he chose, these people make choices to kill, rape, whatever they do.
So, have a great day.
Oh, hi.
Yeah, I think someone else texted what I had to say pretty much, but I don't support it, mainly because the government can be wrong.
I don't understand why conservatives don't get this, because they're denialists.
They're the ones who don't believe government can do anything right.
Everyone's corrupt, right?
Every level of government.
So now they're willing to let the government, that corrupt government, decide who's going to get executed or not.
And, you know, so I just don't support it.
Thank you.
Bye.
Barbara, Chester, New Hampshire.
Good morning.
You're next.
Good morning.
I think there's gray areas.
DNA and everything that they have now in cameras, you can lean towards it.
Ifsies, I don't think they should.
I think people that feel that they should have the death penalty, but it's okay to have an abortion with a little baby that's eight months old that might live.
I think everybody should be in tune that there's gray areas on both sides.
Thank you.
We mentioned some 1 ,600 executions in the United States in the modern death penalty era since 1973.
That is, the Death Penalty Information Center notes...
Good morning.
Yeah.
All right, that's Russell.
This is Christine in Holland, Michigan.
Good morning.
You're next.
I'm a follower of the Lord Jesus, and it says in the New Testament that even if you kidnap a person, you should have the death penalty.
It's not just murder.
And I really believe in it, even though a person might have a mental illness problem.
Christine, you want to see the expanded use of the death penalty, is what you're saying?
Well, no, not expanded use, but...
Just start using it if a person is found guilty and the system knows they're guilty, then they should be, you know,
not have life in prison because that only takes another person's life and that is the ones that have to watch them all the time and it's just too expensive.
That's Christine in Michigan.
Death sentence prisoners in the United States typically spend more than a decade on death row.
Hi, there's really two sides to this issue.
On the one hand, you have the Manson family that were convicted of those brutal murders.
And they were sentenced to death, and then California got rid of the death penalty, so it's commuted to life in prison.
And then Obama released Squeaky Prawn in 2009.
So after, you know, butchering, you know, the Tate -Lavianco murders, she is actually, or she was released from prison.
So there is a possibility that you could have somebody that gets the death penalty, but then does get released after.
There's all kinds of questions about whether the person that they convicted actually did the crime or if they were just looking for someone to hang because it was such a...
Such a spectacular case of the time.
So it really can go both ways.
I can't believe that Obama would pardon one of the Manson family that just murdered Sharon Tate and Abigail Folgers.
But on the other side, you have a bloodthirsty population that wants to make sure that somebody pays.
So that's my two cents.
That's Chris in Palm Harbor, Florida.
Squeaky Fromm released from prison.
The story back in 2009.
Three decades after basking in the national spotlight as Squeaky, the infamous Charles Manson disciple who tried to assassinate Gerald Ford, the now six -year -old woman slipped quietly out of prison on Friday after being released on parole.
Squeaky Fromm eluded the media as she left Fort Worth.
Good morning.
Good morning.
As a historically black college student in Atlanta, Georgia, who primarily works around criminal justice reform, it is a two -parted situation.
I know in the case of Marcellus Williams, there was a lot of conversation amongst the black community as well as the surrounding community in regards to why this black man was being still killed even though it was proven that he did not murder the victim.
And it was just a slap in the face within our community because we saw first -handedly that there was not any type of criminal justice reform or even any motive to try to more so exonerate this black man,
though he spent most of his time in this jail and then ultimately being killed.
And as a person, as a student, as one who's going into the legal force, I think that it is important to be able to analyze how people are being killed and being held in jail and prison and things like that, and there really isn't any information that's going towards to have them released, or even there's not even enough evidence that's now being produced to exonerate
them.
They're ultimately being killed.
So I think, like my views are kind of It's skewed, because some people, they don't feel any remorse for the things that they have done.
And it's like, what do you do in those cases?
But again, in the criminal justice reform, you're looking at how can we better this system?
How can we try to figure out if these people are actually being convicted of the crime or are they actually, you know, is this a false imprisonment?
So that's my opinion on it.
That's Ivory in Illinois.
And just going back to the squeaky from story, just because I didn't remember.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
And was released in 2009, so that's Squeaky Fromm.
This is Macy in Fairfax, California.
Good morning.
Good morning.
So you can hear me.
Oh, thanks for trying again.
Can you hear me?
Yes, ma 'am.
Oh, okay.
I was like, oh no.
I just also, I want to compliment you, sir, on the job that you do.
Yeah, I'm, like others, I'm...
Anyway, in terms of death penalty, I would like to mention a man's name named Leonard Peltier.
Peltier, who was, you know, on the reservation when the FBI came, and he's been in prison for 50 years, and the native people say he didn't do it.
I don't know, but...
So I wanted Joe Biden, everybody's supposed to call him because...
I mean, 50 years on the line, or whatever they call it, Johnny Cash, I guess, is sufficient, and I don't think he did it.
I kind of believe the Native people on that.
So the story from NPR, just for folks who don't know what you're talking about there, Macy, it's indigenous activist Leonard Peltier, I believe is how you say it.
He has spent most of his life in prison since his conviction in 1975 for the killing of two FBI agents in South Dakota.
He was denied parole earlier this year.
The U .S. Parole Commission said in a statement announcing the decision that he won't be eligible for another parole hearing until 2026, serving life in prison for the killing of those agents during a standoff of the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota, convicted in 1977.
He is 79 years old now.
Right.
And what was the FBI doing there?
Do you know that part, John?
If I may call you John?
I can go into more of the story if you want, but I'm not an expert on what happened on the reservation that day, Macy.
But I know of this push to get him out of prison.
Right, yeah.
I mean, 50 years and like you all were saying about Squeaky Fromm, I mean, letting her out.
And I just want to say, a couple callers, I really liked what they said, but all I remember is Mike, I just want to compliment a couple people who were talking about actually the Indigenous people.
I think it was Mike who was saying that hundreds of thousands of people were killed here.
I mean, it sounds so trite to just rehearse it, but it's a fact.
They gave them blankets laced with smallpox on purpose.
They broke their tools so that they couldn't live.
It's just disgusting and stuff like that.
Stuff like that sounds lame.
Anyway, but thank you so much again for your good job because I like the way you go back and forth a little bit with the customers.
Customers is fine too, sure.
Macy in California.
More on Mr. Pelletier.
On June 26, 1975, agents came to the Pine Ridge Reservation to serve arrest warrants amid battles over Native treaty rights and self -determination.
After being injured in a shootout, agents Jack Kohler and Ronald Williams were shot in the head at close range and a standoff ensued.
Good morning.
I'm quite unsure, you know, because if you believe in biblical things, you know, nobody is above God, and He's the only person that can take a life.
But, you know, I find it really concerning in our country at least that we're all sitting here calling in and giving our opinion on who we think should be killed and who we shouldn't.
That's um that's a big old moral problem for me but when we're dealing with any problem I think you need to go to the core and when we're dealing with you know people that kill other people the system has been set up to where some people have more difficult life and they end up Living a life that violence is not as heinous as it would be when a person never has violence around them,
you know, and we really have to get to where we can fix all of this stuff and I truly truly believe that I know this you're going to say that it has nothing to do with murder,
but it does our government is we need to really start at the foundation.
We need to fix it where we can.
can actually help people and that's um equal accountability take away republican and democrat every person be accountable even the wars and stuff like that when the president makes their calls or whatnot um we're killing each other that's literally what we're doing the system has divided us so much that we're not even thinking clearly i'm gonna leave it off with this we're sitting here calling in on who we think should be killed and who we should not
That's Christina in Iowa.
We will continue the discussion again at 9 o 'clock.
We'll do another half hour on this in the last segment of the Washington Journal today.
So if you didn't get in, I know there were several that were trying, please do call back at 9 and we'll continue this discussion.
But coming up next, we'll continue this week's holiday author series on The Washington Journal, eight days of conversations with America's top writers from across the political spectrum, a variety of public policy issues and topics.
After the break, we'll be joined by veteran political journalist Ken Walsh to discuss his book, The Architects of Toxic Politics in America.
We'll be right back.
American History TV, Saturdays on C -SPAN 2.
Exploring the people and events that tell the American story.
This weekend at 3 .15 p .m. Eastern, author Stephen Puglio with his book, The Great Abolitionist, discusses the career and life of abolitionist and politician Charles Sumner,
who represented Massachusetts in the U .S. Senate from 1851 until his death in 1874.
Then, at 4 .45 p .m. Eastern, author Elizabeth Reese, with her book Marquis de Lafayette Returns, recounted the 1824 -1825 trip Lafayette took through the young United States when he returned after the Revolutionary War.
And at 7 p .m. Eastern, lead up to Inauguration Day, American History TV looks back at famous inaugural speeches.
This weekend, speeches by Franklin Roosevelt in 1933, Harry Truman's 1949 address, and Dwight Eisenhower's 1953 address.
Exploring the American story.
Watch American History TV, Saturdays on C -SPAN 2.
And find a full schedule on your program guide, or watch online anytime at c -span .org slash history.
Sunday, on C -SPAN's Q &A, Don Scott, Virginia's newly elected Democratic Speaker of the House of Delegates, and the state's first black speaker in 405 years, talks about his life, including spending almost eight years in prison.
I had never been in trouble before.
I had served my country, and I was hoping that I would get a little more grace and maybe get the judge to have some attitude to go with the law.
And he probably could have gave me even more time than he did.
I remember hearing my mother when he said 10 years, you know, she couldn't believe it.
And that yelp of pain, it always stays with me.
And it's always motivating.
And it always lets me know how fragile our freedom is and how perilous it is.
And if you make one wrong move sometimes, it could be literally the end of your life as you know it.
Virginia's Democratic House Speaker, Don Scott, Sunday night.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
Watch Trump nominees in their own words next week at 8 a .m. Eastern on C -SPAN 2.
Washington Journal continues.
And the Washington Journal Holiday Authors Week continues this morning.
It is eight days of conversations with America's top writers from across the political spectrum.
It's a We feature political journalist Ken Walsh, his book The Architects of Toxic Politics in America.
And Mr. Walsh, you argue in that book that we've gone through these cycles of toxic politics in America before, that these cycles sort of come and go.
So how do they go?
How have we broken out of past cycles of toxic politics?
Right.
Well, I think people probably today tend to think that this is so unusual.
And it is in some ways.
Largely because President -elect Trump has been a real advocate of this kind of negative politics frankly, and also it's amplified by social media.
Those are two big differences than what we've had before, but you could trace this way back to the beginning of the country.
George Washington, of course, was elected unanimously by the Electoral College, but the first election after that and the second one in 1796 and 1800 John Adams versus Thomas Jefferson, both times, were two of the most toxic elections we've ever had, right from the beginning.
Some of the things they said and their supporters said about the different candidates would curl our hair these days because they were so negative and so personal.
But it just shows it happened right from the beginning.
In that same time frame, we had the first character assassin.
In American politics, there's a man named J .T. Callender, who, when he was, he endorsed Jefferson, and then Jefferson was elected and did not give him a job he wanted as postmaster of Richmond, Virginia, so he turned against Jefferson,
and he's the one who broke the story about Jefferson having an affair with Sally Hemings, one of the enslaved people at Monticello, his plantation.
Jefferson denied it, was considered very salacious at the time.
Character assassination attempt, as I say.
But Jefferson still re -elected and became a popular president.
The interesting thing is, as often happens with these spreading of rumors, DNA evidence has since shown that Jefferson did have an affair with Sally Hemings.
So, even though for many years this was considered sort of an excessive negative charge, it turned out that he was right.
But we have had waves of this in our history.
The worst example of our toxic politics, where we could not resolve our differences, we could not find common ground, was the Civil War, which was a terrible calamity for the United States.
Ended slavery, of course, saved the Union, but at an enormous cost to the country in lives and respect for each other and so on.
So what happens is, after having researched this quite You write on page 206 in your book that this politics of resentment and anger and grievance often runs its course until the warring sides,
or at least one of them,
Well, I think a lot of Americans hope that will happen.
I just saw a poll, just my due diligence before coming in to do your show, that 65 % of Americans are now saying...
That they're so distressed by politics and so exhausted by it, just what you just were reading there, that they've tuned out the news.
They've tuned out political news.
Doesn't make me happy as someone who's made his career on reporting political news, but that's part of what happens.
People get exhausted by the negativity and the toxic nature of things, and they just don't pay attention to it anymore, and then it has less effect.
But we still have a very deeply divided country, a very polarized country, and people who do not believe good things about the other side.
And I don't think that's going to change.
I'm sad to say that, but I think we're in for this toxic environment for a long time.
You write in this book, and this book came out earlier this year, of course, before the election, that you think the semi -quincentennial could be a moment to...
Yes.
Well, that will be the 250th anniversary of our founding as a country.
And that's two years from now.
So there are signs that some of this is happening, particularly on the level of governors.
A lot of governors, they have to get along with people more than the national politicians do in many cases.
So there's something of a movement among some governors.
There's something of a movement in the media as well.
That maybe we have played this toxic game too long ourselves, and maybe we should pull back from that and try to take another approach.
So there are signs of it, but I was just exploring what could possibly be a triggering event for...
Making us sort of respect each other more as Americans and respect our institutions and maybe that kind of a thing, that kind of an event, a historic event, and it's going to be celebrated all over the country,
would cause a sort of a renaissance of finding common ground and reduce the toxic nature of things.
That's what I hope for.
Chapter 5 of your book is titled Donald Trump, the most negative president of all time.
One, I want to understand why you...
Yeah.
That's one of the open questions.
I wrote that carefully.
I am not a partisan journalist.
I'm not a partisan person.
I've covered seven presidents, and I don't think I could have done it for that long if I was too partisan.
The other thing I wanted to say before I go back to Trump is that the Democrats have done the same thing over time.
They have been very toxic in their politics, and I talk about this in the book.
So it's not just Republicans who do it, although I do think that Donald Trump has exceeded the gun beyond.
We've had guardrails, as we say in covering politics, to too much toxic politics.
But he has built a base of support.
Now, in the recent election, the country was basically divided in half.
Trump, according to the most recent numbers I've seen, did not get 50%.
He got just below 50%.
But the country was very split.
So his toxic politics, his constant pillorying his opponents, finding negative ways to portray many, many issues, and his belittling people and so on,
Which is more or less the definition of toxic politics, using bullying and personal attacks and negativity to advance yourself.
This has worked for him politically.
A lot of his supporters like what he's doing.
I mean, one way I've heard it described that I think is very insightful is that people who voted for Donald Trump were hiring him not as a role model, not as a...
As a character paragon, but almost like an attorney or CEO who will get the job done for them.
And the other stuff, the character issue and that sort of thing, is much less important.
So he's sort of an advocate.
And advocates will take extreme positions, they'll push and push, and that's what he's doing.
So the idea of looking for a renaissance, he's going to have to suffer some setbacks in his approach for that to happen.
It could happen, but I don't see it happening now.
You write in your book, presidents have the loudest megaphone in American life and are vastly influential.
They set the tone for public discourse and, unfortunately, many have played a key role in intensifying the toxic environment.
Also instrumental in shaping today's toxic culture are a range of influencers who have become combatants in the culture wars.
Who are some of those influencers, those combatants?
Well, that's an interesting story of itself.
In the book, I describe this as sort of a rogues gallery of influencers who, over the years, have pushed us more and more toward the toxic environment we're in.
Today, we have people like Rush Limbaugh, the late Rush Limbaugh was in this category, the famous radio commentator.
Now you have people like Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity.
People with ties to Fox News cases, and they had made their reputation on being the conservative network through their commentators.
But the history of this includes Democrats and Republicans and others too.
If you look at the commentariat or the influencers on the outside, very famous people that people don't remember today.
Father Charles Coughlin was a Catholic priest.
From Canada, who moved to Michigan, established a small parish, and he became, he realized he was a great speaker, and he gave him a radio show.
It became enormously popular around the country, and he became a toxic politician.
He actually became a fascist, because his argument was that we're fighting the wrong people in World War II, we should be fighting godless communism.
We're good to go.
I think?
Huey Long was the governor and senator from Louisiana.
Part of the time, he was so obsessed with being a strong man, he was the governor and the senator at the same time.
He was able to pull that off in Louisiana.
And he was so popular that Franklin Roosevelt felt that he could be a real threat to his re -election.
Of course, Huey Long was killed.
He was assassinated before he could run against Franklin Roosevelt in the '30s.
And that's the other thing I wanted to mention real quick, and I'm sure the callers will bring this up as well.
That's one of the real problems with toxic politics.
Does it lead to violence?
We had that with the Civil War, as I mentioned before.
Probably the worst domestic cataclysm we've had, where we couldn't resolve our differences.
And so the question is, today we have such a toxic environment.
Is it leading to violence?
The cases of people who are attacked in politics.
Donald Trump...
We're good to go.
And we have so many shootings in the country now, it's hard to sort a lot of this out.
That's one thing I think a lot of Americans are concerned by.
How far does this go?
And having written this book, that's one concern I have.
Have we extended toxic politics to each other so much that we've come to distrust and hate each other as Americans?
That would be a very dangerous thing for us.
And I think in some ways we're on the cusp of that.
The Architects of Toxic Politics in America is the book, the subtitle, Venom and Vitriol.
Ken Walsh is our guest in this hour of the Washington Journal, taking your phone calls in our Washington Journal Holiday Authors Week.
It's 202 -748 -8000 for Democrats to call in, Republicans 202 -748 -8001, Independents 202 -748 - 8 ,002 phone lines already lit up for you, Mr. Walsh.
This is Ray, an independent in Colorado.
You're up first in this segment.
Good morning.
Thanks for taking my call.
And I happen to be affiliated with the Libertarian Party.
You mentioned the major figures within toxic politics.
I was wondering if any names come to mind.
That's a very good question.
By the way, I covered politics in Colorado for a long time, so I'm glad you mentioned that.
I always look back on that as a very Well, positive time in my own career.
I worked for the Denver Post and the Associated Press in Colorado.
So, in any case, and as I remember, and very vividly, Colorado actually has a history of quite positive politics.
People there, when I covered politics in Colorado, were very proud of that.
The sense was that we don't stoop to conquer.
We don't demean each other.
Our politicians don't go too far.
Maybe that's changed, but I remember that was a very important matter of pride among a lot of voters in Colorado that they didn't wallow in toxic politics.
Now, as I said before, finding people who don't do toxic politics at all is increasingly difficult to do.
Excuse me.
I can't really point to many people who...
Avoid it completely because when push comes to shove, people will go into toxic politics.
They think that's what it takes to win an election.
So you see people, including Joe Biden, by the way, who tried to come into office as a guy who would be a healer and who would not be a toxic politician.
But he got into it, too, because he felt that he was being roughed up too much by his enemies.
The other point I'd make is that the toxic politics is amplified greatly by social media in particular.
You can find on social media anything you want to find to support your views.
In academia, we call it confirmation bias, where people will look for information that only supports what they think, not anything to challenge it, and won't even pay attention to people on the other side.
And this is spreading through the country where people are getting to the point in polling you see people saying I don't want to be in a neighborhood with people who disagree with me on politics.
People, there's a lot of talk during the holidays about how people dealt with their families.
Where you had people around the dinner table for Thanksgiving or the Christmas holidays or whatever and how do you deal with people who disagree with you?
Some people felt, well, I don't invite those people anymore.
But the mainstream media, we don't get off the hook on this, in my mind.
We accelerate this, too.
I think we're too drawn to covering conflict and clashes, and that's how politicians have learned they can get attention.
But it's really social media, I think, that's doing more damage than the mainstream media.
It's growing in importance among young people.
And, as I say, there's no filter there, so you get whatever you see on social media is not filtered by an editor or reporter, so you have no idea what's true and some of it now, with artificial intelligence and with what we used to call photoshopping, the images are made up and created and they look very real.
So I just have to caution people to be careful in assessing what you see on social media, because it looks real but many times it's not.
But it goes to that idea of confirmation bias.
Social media today, the caller talked about the media being the message.
Remind viewers what the Daisy Girl ad was.
Yes, well, Daisy Girl, this also relates to the idea of Democrats have been guilty of this toxic politics themselves as well.
The Daisy Girl ad was the most famous political ad in our history, the most famous negative political ad and the most effective.
This was run in the 1964 campaign by Lyndon Johnson, who of course succeeded John F. Kennedy after Kennedy was assassinated and he took on Kennedy's mantle.
He was very popular initially, but he ran against Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona, who was very conservative, and there was a subtext.
And a lot of times these negative ads work best when there is a subtext, when people think there's something going on here that I don't like, and the people who make the ads can latch on to that.
There was concern that Goldwater was too warlike, was too bellicose.
He was going to get us into a war with the old Soviet Union.
So Johnson came up with an ad which showed a little girl in a field, and if you've seen it, you probably always will remember it.
It's a one -minute ad.
It showed a little girl in a field picking daisies.
That's where the name Daisy ad comes from.
She pulls petals off like he loves me, he loves me not kind of a thing, and she counts.
And she gets the numbers wrong.
She's basically a toddler.
Ten, six, four, five, and then you hear a narrator take the countdown, and it becomes a nuclear blast.
And she looks up, and you see the nuclear mushroom cloud in her eyes, as if she's looking at the blast, and this is her last sight she's going to have.
So, a nuclear war is illustrated, and it's a very vivid ad.
And at the end...
You hear Lyndon Johnson say, "Today, it's important that we get along.
We must learn to love each other or we will surely die." Goldwater is not mentioned in the ad at all.
And then the narrator says, "Be sure to vote on," gives the date of the vote, November 6th, I think it was, "The stakes are too high for you to stay home." That ad ran once.
It was so powerful.
All the networks picked it up as a news story.
The newspapers did.
It only had to run once.
And it made the point.
And it really just put the end to Goldwater's campaign.
And he just knew how devastating it was.
But that's the most historic negative political edit in our history.
To John in New York, also independent.
Good morning.
Thanks for waiting.
Yeah, thanks for taking the call.
Yesterday you guys had an author from the Newsweek, I guess his name was Alter, and the entire hour was condemning Donald Trump, how terrible a person he is.
And then you have this author today, and he goes directly to Chapter 5, How Toxic Donald Trump, the Most Toxic or Divisive President.
So you go there, and then you go on to say Rush Limbaugh and the media, how terrible he was, and Tucker Carlson, Fox News, and you know, a lot of people voted this year,
and more than 50 % of the country voted for Donald Trump.
They don't care about what you say anymore, because after the Russian collusion hoax, The fake story about the Russian, I mean, Hunter Biden's laptop was Russian disinformation,
and the lies about Biden's cognitive abilities, and issues with Hillary Clinton banging and crashing up her email, you know, on her phones,
and having something in her basement that shouldn't have been there.
You know, they're seeing it.
They can see it with their own eyes.
And you know what?
We listen to you, and we listen to your condemnation of the Republicans, and you don't say a darn thing about President Biden and the comments he made about, you know, fascism, Hitler,
and the people that support Donald Trump are no, you know, they're dangerous.
They're a danger to our country.
And then Hillary Clinton calling people that support Donald Trump a basket of deplorables.
Can you say something bad about Joe Biden and something good about Donald Trump?
Is it possible?
Show me you're not biased, okay?
Good point.
Ken Walsh.
Well, first of all, maybe you weren't listening, but I did talk about how Biden had descended into toxic politics in his presidency.
And part of it is the criticism of Trump supporters.
Yeah, and I think that's part of the problem he had.
I've been very critical of Biden in a number of ways.
One is I think that he and his White House did not fully explain the cognitive decline that everyone saw in that debate, which he lost to Donald Trump.
And he took a couple of weeks after that, but then he did drop out.
To me, that is a huge story that the mainstream media, my own business, my own career, That we didn't focus on enough.
And I've said this many times.
The basket of deplorables went too far.
But also, we have to realize one reason that the Republicans get so much attention for negative politics, as I say in the book,
is because they have had masters of it in Republican politics.
Lee Atwater...
Donald Trump defined attack politics in the United States in the 80s.
He worked for Ronald Reagan.
He worked for George Bush, the father.
And this has nothing to do with Donald Trump at all.
And Lee Atwood, I knew Lee Atwood very, very well.
And his philosophy was, we don't win elections by building up our own candidates.
We win elections by tearing the other side down.
He said that many, many times.
This is long before Donald Trump.
So, there's a long history here.
The other thing is, or a couple of points.
One is that Trump, according to the latest numbers, he did not win a majority of the vote.
He won just below 50%.
He won the election, there's no doubt about that.
He won a big majority in the Electoral College.
But the Democrats, as it turns out, didn't do as bad as we thought they did initially after this campaign.
Kamala Harris lost by about two and a half million votes.
That's a lot of votes, but in percentage, she was about a point and a half behind Donald Trump.
So that's another thing to keep in mind.
The other thing I wanted to mention is, and I know the caller was very agitated about this, but one reason that the Republicans get a lot of attention for toxic politics now...
It's because they're so much better at it and because they're so much more entertaining at it.
People in the United States now have a short attention span, so to get their attention, you have to, in the media, social media, the punditocracy or whatever, you have to entertain them.
This is part of our celebrity culture now.
And the Republicans, frankly, do it a lot better than the Democrats do.
I'm not saying that as a criticism.
They know how the media works.
They understand the country in this way, I think, better than the Democrats do.
And that's partly why Donald Trump got as many votes as he did, because the constant drumbeat of attack and criticism was picked up and amplified by the social media and by the influencers.
The Associated Press numbers...
Donald Trump with 77 ,297 ,721 votes in the 2024 election.
49 .9 % of the total votes cast.
Kamala Harris, 75 ,009 ,338 votes.
48 .4%.
William is in Miamisburg, Ohio.
Democrat, good morning.
This is your favorite old dumb, I can say 89 -year -old hillbilly.
Now, Mr. Walsh.
I commend you for writing a book like that, because we have nothing but crooks and politicians in the government.
It's just a shame that we pay taxes to support them crooks.
And that's from federal, state, and local.
It's just a shame.
I feel so sorry for my grandkids and nine little great -grandkids, who'll be 11 in March.
It's just a shame.
Did you ever read the book Broke USA?
Broke USA?
I'm the number one guy in that.
And as far as Trump, every time I see his lips move, I get diarrhea.
It's just a shame.
That's William in Ohio.
This is Ted in Washington, New Jersey, Republican.
Good morning.
Yes, I just wanted to say a couple of things.
About the negativity on balance here.
First of all, the Democrats are also very big on negativity.
I go back a couple years ago to Nancy Pelosi.
She ripped up the State of the Union speech on national TV, and there was no repercussion.
It's just all the late night TV shows, PBS, 60 Minutes, ABC, they all went along.
Oh, yeah, let's attack Trump.
These people, the late night shows, are the biggest offenders.
I can't even watch them.
All they do is attack the one side.
It's not a balance.
Now, also, during the election time, we had David Muir, who I thought was a fair guy.
He's doing the interviewing at the debate, and he had a woman on there who was friendly, apparently, which had some kind of relationship with Harris, and it was all softball questions.
So, you know, it's not one side or the other.
What you're doing, and I understand you're highlighting the one side, but if you look at it objectively...
There is an army.
Okay, let's take The View.
You ever watch that on TV every day?
They totally attack anybody who doesn't agree with them.
And they are very toxic as well.
So I just hope that in your reporting or when you're talking about your book, you're inclusive about this because the reason why people voted for Trump is because they're tired of the so -called swamp where all these united people in Washington and Hollywood and in the networks,
they're all together.
They're like one group.
Walsh?
Yes.
I don't really disagree with what you're saying at all.
I mean, in fact, in my body of work, I think, if you looked at it, you can see that I have been very critical of both sides on this.
You mentioned the Pelosi tearing up the speech, but basically, there's a parallel universe here for both sides.
The color's not there.
Go ahead.
Well, this very important segment in our politics, the working class, ...was not feeling joy.
That was the wrong approach to appeal to them.
And Trump did enormously well with those people.
They used to be the core of the Democratic Party.
I come from a working -class background myself.
And I saw that in my own family when I was being brought up.
But the Democrats are no longer the party of the working class.
They're going through enormous soul -searching now on how do they fix this.
But it was a terrible problem.
And it's a problem that we have in the media too.
We don't really understand the working class as we might have in the past.
One reason is we don't live like working class people.
When I first started covering politics long ago, I felt like I was living the same life as the people I was writing for as a newspaper reporter.
When the property taxes went up, I would not like it.
Grocery prices went up.
When something happened in crime or something, I was worried about my neighborhood.
But as time has gone on, I think the people in the media, in the big media centers, New York and Washington and California...
Chicago, for instance.
We don't live the same life as working class people, and I think we did at one time.
So this is a real disconnect, and this is something the Democrats are feeling.
The other quick point I'd make, and I think you were very well taken, talking about the celebrity endorsements.
I was always critical of the effect of celebrity endorsements.
Ever since I've covered politics, and it's been 45 years now, all those elections, The Democrats always get the endorsements from the famous stars.
And the Republicans do well with country music entertainers and some Hollywood people.
But basically, that's a Democratic constituency.
That's always the way it's been.
But it doesn't really convert votes.
I'm sure it annoys and angers people on the other side, conservatives who feel like there's too many social activists in Hollywood who are liberals.
And there are many who are liberals, but I don't think they swing elections.
I think Americans really don't pay attention to that very much.
Even Taylor Swift, who had a brief moment in the sun in this last campaign.
If you had to list the three most divisive, toxic, is the word we've been using, elections in American history, would 2024 crack the top three?
Well, I think the first two would be 1796 and 1800, the ones I started out talking about.
They were incredibly toxic elections and very personal elections.
John Adams criticized and his supporters criticized Jefferson as heading for bringing the guillotine, bringing the French Revolution to the United States, killing people,
bringing atheism.
As the governing philosophy of the country.
And on the other side, Jefferson's people said Adams was a royalist.
He wanted to bring the sort of nobility into the country, the nobility of the nobles of Europe, that sort of thing.
And he was mocked as his rotundity.
And we're talking about personal attacks, and he was criticized by the Jefferson people of being a hermaphrodite.
Now, that's not the best thing to call somebody, then or now.
But that's how negative it was.
Very, very negative campaign.
But big issues were at stake.
A lot of people were worried about the future.
Can we survive as a country?
That's the point I made initially.
When that kind of resentment and anger and fear and grievance rises, negative politics rises.
So that, I would say, is a very negative period.
Andrew Jackson had very, very negative campaigns a few years later.
That was the era of duels.
He got into duels.
He killed people in duels.
And just a quick point about this is that when he ran for president, he ran and lost and then he ran again.
His opponents raised the issue that his wife was an adulteress because she had been married before and she thought that her marriage had been The divorce had gone through, but it had not.
So she was actually still legally married when she married Andrew Jackson.
And his opponents raised this as an issue against him that he had married an adulteress and she was scorned by a lot of people in Washington, including the spouses of a lot of people in Congress.
Her name was Rachel.
And she never made it to his inauguration.
She died.
And a lot of people thought she died of a nervous breakdown because she realized how her reputation had been sullied by all this criticism.
And Jackson always held the death of his wife against his critics.
So you talk about a negative environment.
This is a man who was devoted to his wife.
He felt that his opponents had actually killed his wife by causing her health to be shattered.
And so that set the tone.
He became a negative politician.
You're right.
When Rachel Jackson once discovered her husband Andrew Jackson crying in his office, she asked him what was wrong.
"Myself I can defend, you I can defend, but now they have assailed even the memory of my mother," he replied.
Yes, well, at that point, yeah, he felt his mother was being attacked, and she was.
So, you know, we've had this history of our country, and that's part of what I was trying to show in the book, because of the reasons I've talked about.
Hey, good morning, good morning.
You know, I'm 76 years old, and I've kind of noticed in this past election, my younger kids and, you know, some of the kids in their 40s and 50s, but they never watch programs on TV.
They watch, you know, movies and stuff, but they never watch the news.
They never watch Fox and stuff like that.
But what they do, it seems like on their telephones and Facebook, We're good to go.
Yeah, well, again, very well.
An insightful question.
What the caller is referring to, obviously keeping up on the news, is that Donald Trump is very good at this.
That's partly why we talk about him so much in the media.
He's a terrific showman.
He understands the media.
He understands how to get attention.
He understands how to...
divert attention from things he doesn't want to talk about and create other things.
What's happened in the last week or so is that Trump has talked about the United States taking over Canada and taking over Greenland and taking over the Panama Canal.
Now I maybe this is just his showman instinct because he knows everybody will talk about this.
If you look at how that would happen, it's very hard to see how any of that would happen, except the Panama Canal, which I think that could happen.
The United States could take that back because the United States did build it.
But he raised the idea of taking over Greenland in his first term, by the way.
And Denmark, as I recall, actually owns Greenland, controls Greenland.
And they said, no, you're never going to get Greenland.
Forget it.
Now he's back on that again.
Now maybe it's just he feels like it's an issue that he knows people will talk about.
Maybe he's serious about it.
There's no detail about this at all.
So we really don't know how serious he is.
Except at the Panama Canal.
He apparently has looked into this because he knew enough about it to know how many people died building the canal more than 100 years ago.
He says about 38 ,000 Americans died building the canal.
So he's looking at it as...
Just a couple things.
The implicit by Ken, you're a nice man, and everybody likes to think they're in the middle of the road, but...
Actually, just you're saying that for every one of these shows, there's one of those, everybody knows that the media is like 90 % liberal.
So that's not true.
And the negativity of Joe Biden, when he went after Bork and used the NPR to come up with this scandal, and he was lying and trying to embarrass politicians way before Trump.
His negativity is tenfold.
So when Trump goes against, A 90 % attack, he kind of has to do that.
And we want him going to bat for us against these people with these crazy ideas that a boy isn't a boy, a boy's a girl, and all this wild and wacky stuff.
And then not to mention that, yeah, I mean, and that's where we're at.
And I appreciate your niceness and that you think that you're in the middle, but you are a liberal.
Well, I mean, I have never disclosed my political leanings, and I don't intend to.
I don't think I could have covered seven presidents and won the major awards for White House coverage over the years if I was biased, and I don't believe I am.
I try to call them as I see them.
As I say, I come from a working -class family myself.
My father was a longshoreman in New York.
Then he became a... worked for the city of New York and my mother was a waitress and then raised her five sons.
I have four brothers.
But in any case, I do try to, as I say, call him as I see him.
And I think that the caller and the other caller in particular was very riled up about the bias against Trump and so on.
And I understand that, but...
At this moment, I don't think you could look at what Trump is doing and saying as he's trying to, as he's just won the election and is about to become president, and see that he's looking for common ground.
He's not.
He feels that the polarization benefits him.
He has felt that way for a long time and has felt that that's the way he would win re -election.
Now, as I say, he almost hit 50%, but he didn't quite hit 50%.
But he won.
There's no doubt about that.
But just look at the results that we've shown here in the map a little while ago and how divided we are as a country.
It's really remarkable.
And it's unfortunate that I think that the president -elect has not tried to step away from this a little bit.
Some of the polling, I think, would be interesting.
One recent poll said that 20 % of Americans now support what they call a national divorce, where the blue states, the Democratic states, would go their own way, the red states, the Republican states, would go their own way.
That sounds like a civil war to me.
That's about 60 million people feel that way.
That's a lot of people.
Only 20 % of the people.
But we have very deep divisions as a country, and I think at some point, Somebody who stands astride the whole system needs to step back from this and serve as an example for everybody else.
In the Bible, it's called turning the other cheek.
This is what we used to think in our daily lives and in our politics and in public life.
So I think civility is really in danger here, and you can see that in this idea of the national divorce.
So a different take on my first question about how these cycles of toxic politics end.
What was the previous cycle before the one that we acknowledge we're in now?
How did that end?
Well, I think after World War II, we had a huge...
We're good to go.
To find these alleged communists in government, which he never could really identify them, but he made the accusations.
That became a very difficult time for a lot of people who were wrongly accused.
What Eisenhower did, and this gets back to the point I'm making now about today, is he felt that he didn't want to take McCarthy head on, which a lot of people faulted him with since, but he felt that...
McCarthy would sort of overreach and he would automatically, at some point, people would turn against him.
And that's exactly what happened.
But he had the credibility as a president to feel like he wasn't going to embrace McCarthy.
He felt he could stand up to him.
And that's the kind of thing that I think we need today.
Somebody to stand up to the extremes and to speak for the common ground.
And I think Eisenhower managed to do that.
And by the end of McCarthy's hot streak, when he was at his most popular, Eisenhower made the distinction, sort of a criticism of McCarthy, done in a typical Eisenhower way, said,
it's not McCarthyism, which is the name given to making unsubstantiated charges, it's McCarthy -was -ism.
But it was interesting how Eisenhower handled that delicately, but nevertheless tried to push McCarthy off the stage in an interesting way.
But it took Joseph Welsh saying, have you no sense of decency, sir?
At long last, have you left no sense of decency?
Yes, that was the famous hearing in which McCarthy started to go too far, where he was making accusations against the young fellow.
Who had no communist connections that we know of, and he was ruining this guy's life.
And so this lawyer, Welsh, that you talk about, had a very dramatic moment where he made exactly those words, criticizing McCarthy for going too far, for ruining this young man's life for his own political gain.
And that stuck with a lot of people.
Eight minutes or so left with Kim Walsh.
Good morning.
Happy New Year.
Congratulations on your book, Mr. Walsh.
I have a question for you.
Do you think Donald would be as gracious and dignified as Vice President Harris when it comes to the fact that she conceded to him with that landslide of 1 .48 %?
Will he be as civil as she has been?
Is that what you're asking?
No, I'm saying...
Oh, I'm sorry, right.
No, I don't think so.
We already have the track record of that the last time.
And he had been saying all along in the campaign that he was talking about widespread fraud and things that were about to happen, that then when he won, that all went away.
Now, I am hearing, and you probably are too, reading the mainstream media, there is an effort by some Democrats to challenge those results, even now.
I don't know if that's going to go very far, but the Democrats are doing an enormous amount of soul -searching, and I think that if they go to challenge the results, that's probably a bad thing for the Democrats to do,
because it would look like sour grapes doing What they accused Trump of doing, which is overturning the results of an election, maybe that's just like a two -day story,
but basically the Democrats are really worried about their future now and how they handle things, including the working class that I mentioned before.
How'd you get into writing about politics?
Well, I come from a family, as I say, from New York City, a working class family who were always very interested in politics.
My parents were always, that was the era when there were like 12 newspapers in the city, and my parents were avid readers of newspapers and political news.
And I was the oldest son, and so I was assigned to go to the newsstand and buy seven newspapers every day.
And I could tell you what they were, but that was when New York had a lot of newspapers, and my parents would devour them, and that transmitted itself to me and all my brothers.
So it goes back that far, and then I just have always been interested in it, and I've fortunately been able in my career to do what I always set out to do.
Good morning.
I politely, not even politely, disagree with Ken.
Has there ever been a person, president past, that has caused people to out legit killed because of what they are pushing?
And knowing that it's a lie, I can't get...
I can't get my head wrapped around the whole January 6th thing.
And even to this day, he doesn't say, "Oh, that wasn't the best idea in the world." I sat here in my living room and I watched it on TV.
And he was urging it.
He whipped up the crowd, which were already whipped up.
And he sent them on their way.
And if it would have been a race situation, those people would have been arrested.
That's all I have to say.
Thanks so much for hearing me.
Yeah, we haven't had a chance to go into that January 6th.
That's, of course, the riot at the Capitol.
A lot of people call it an insurrection, an attempt to stop the count that was going to remove Donald Trump from office for the election of Joe Biden.
And that was thoroughly investigated.
People are still very divided about that.
Trump people are feeling that he was unfairly criticized for fomenting the riot.
Well, I mean,
he has had many lawsuits against him.
He's had, and he's attacked the...
He's attacked the whole system.
He's attacked persecution and not prosecution in the legal system.
Again, we're divided about this as a country too.
I'm sure you've done segments about this and it's been well argued about January 6th and what the pros and cons and Trump's relationship with institutions, with the law, with the Justice Department,
with courts and so on.
That's not going to change, but that's one of the areas that divide us.
I mean, he has been a very, very divisive guy, and this fits in with his politics, and still is today.
That's part of why I talk about him in the book, and so many people still talk about him.
He's actually brilliant at getting attention, but he has not veered away from the idea of keeping the base that we've talked about here, and talked about many other times, and not expanding the base.
And as I say, he hasn't gone over a majority.
It's close, but it's not a majority.
And Kamala Harris did not do as bad as she seemed to have done on election night.
She came within a point and a half of Donald Trump.
So it just shows how polarized we are.
At some point, somebody has got to, in authority, a respected figure, has to...
Take another direction.
It's very unhealthy, the direction we're going in now.
It's infecting us in so many ways.
And the one thing that bothers me the most here is how it's turning us against each other as Americans.
We're not finding the common values we thought we had all along.
And people are just so hostile that they don't want to associate with the other side.
They don't want to try to make a case.
That's very unfortunate and that's I think a real danger for the country.
The Architects of Toxic Politics in America is the book that came out this year.
Ken Walsh is the author.
KennethWalsh .com if you want to check out his website.
Thanks so much for your time.
Thank you.
Coming up in the next half hour of the Washington Journal, we're going to return to that question that we began the program with today, your view on the death penalty in the United States.
Phone lines for those who support, oppose, and if you're not sure, a phone line for you as well.
Those numbers are on your screen.
Go ahead and start calling in, and we will get your calls right after the break.
American History TV, Saturdays on C -SPAN 2, exploring the people and events that tell the American story.
This weekend at 3 :15 p .m. Eastern, author Stephen Puglio, with his book The Great Abolitionist, discusses the career and life of abolitionist and politician Charles Sumner,
who represented Massachusetts in the U .S. Senate from 1851 until his death in 1874.
Then, at 4 .45 p .m. Eastern, author Elizabeth Reese with her book Marquis de Lafayette Returns recounted the 1824 -1825 trip Lafayette took through the young United States when he returned after the Revolutionary War.
And at 7 p .m. Eastern, lead up to Inauguration Day, American History TV looks back at famous inaugural speeches.
This weekend, We're good to go.
In his latest book, LBJ and McNamara, Peter Osnos' dedication reads this way.
To those on the Vietnam wall, on the mall, and their countless Vietnamese counterparts, it did not have to happen.
Unquote.
In his role as publisher at Public Affairs Books, Osnos spent numerous hours working with former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara for his 1995 book, In Retrospect, The Tragedy and Lessons of Vietnam.
Osnos writes, this book describes what happened in the years between 1963 and McNamara's last day as Secretary of Defense in February of 1968.
Robert McNamara died in 2009 at the age of 93.
We're good to go.
For over 45 years, C -SPAN has been your window into the workings of our democracy, offering live coverage of Congress, open forum call -in programs, and unfiltered access to the decision makers who shape our nation.
And we've done it all without a cent of government funding.
C -SPAN exists for you, viewers who value transparent, no -spin political coverage, and your support helps keep our mission alive.
We're good to go.
I think?
Washington Journal continues.
And we're with you for about an hour more this morning on the Washington Journal.
In these first 30 minutes of that hour, we're returning to that question that we began our program with today.
In the wake of President Biden giving life imprisonment to 37 of 40 federal death row inmates earlier this week, we are simply asking for your opinion about the use of capital punishment.
If you support the death penalty, 202 -748 -8000 is the number to call.
Yes, I support the death penalty by default.
We cannot continue to spend money and taxpayer money on supporting the... perpetrators of these crimes for tens of decades of years,
I do understand that some death penalty people are executed and they're innocent.
When we know that they did it, i .e. the New York subway, Boston bomber, etc., we can't continue to suck up resources having these people live for years.
They put in the least amount into the system and they're costing the most.
I believe thou shall not kill, but at a certain point, it becomes economic, and I don't want to pay for it anymore.
It's taxpayer.
Thank you.
John in Glenside, Pennsylvania.
Good morning.
You're next.
Yeah, good morning, everybody.
I'm opposed to the death penalty because I found that there are way too many people that have been found innocent in the long term, and I think life without the possibility of parole at least gives us the opportunity over time.
To make sure that we haven't made a mistake.
And I think life without the possibility of parole is a pretty harsh way to spend your life, and I think that's adequate.
Thank you.
On the first caller's point on the costs of keeping somebody on death row and housing somebody for life in prison, we've been showing you this morning, as we've asked this question, the Death Palliative Information Center,
a lot of information there, stats. on the use of the death penalty, where people are housed on death row, what states still have the death penalty.
They also have a section on the costs of the death penalty and how much the death penalty actually costs and how that compares to a system in which a life sentence is the maximum punishment they write can only be determined by studies on the state level.
Many such studies have been conducted and their conclusions are consistent.
The death penalty imposes a net cost on the taxpayers compared to life without parole.
We're good to go.
I think?
Yeah, hi.
I'm opposed to the death penalty because I don't want to be part of this system of eliminating people because of the crime that they cause.
Having said that, I would like to bring up one point.
I wanted to get on what Mr. Welch was talking, and the question I had for him, that one, why the insurrection?
What's going on, I don't know what TV network, it could be CNN, it could be ABC, CBS, or NBC, they open up the door, and I don't know where it is, showing the members of the Trump family,
one is her daughter, and I believe it's her husband, and several other people, but I did not see Trump there, because it was just a hidden view.
Well, I'll tell you what, Pete, we can get to some of those comments in our open forum.
We're going to spend the last half hour of our show today, but don't want to sidetrack too much away from this conversation on the death penalty.
We had a bunch of people who couldn't get in in that first segment who wanted to talk about the death penalty, so we're doing it again now.
This is William in Pleasantville, New York.
Good morning.
Yeah, good morning, John.
A little different approach.
On the opposed side of it, I think it might be too easy to execute people.
In other words, you think about God can forgive at will.
In other words, how do we know that the people that are executed are not forgiven and put a little time in purgatory and make their way up to heaven?
So I think that perhaps for these most heinous, terrible, terrible crimes, that we make a prison in a place like Death Valley and make it unusual for the punishment,
but make it cruel as hell.
Make it so terrible that they would not be interested, that it would deter them.
But back to the other side...
So William, you don't believe in...
No, I want it to be unusual, okay?
But when they, you know, these horrible ones you hear about with little children mutilated and people like that, their punishment should be cruel, much worse than it is now in prison.
In other words, make them suffer.
And if they're going to go to executions, make them public.
Hang them in the public square if you're going to go that route.
So have a nice day, everyone.
That's William in Pleasantville, New York.
This is Craig in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I appreciate C -SPAN.
Excellent topics.
I just want to lay down some facts.
Very simple, because a lot of people claim...
They use the Bible to say, they misuse the Bible to say that, you know, the death penalty, you know, God doesn't want the death penalty, the Bible doesn't want it.
That's totally, absolutely, provably incorrect.
In the Ten Commandments, it's you shall not murder.
It's not kill.
In the King James, they just used kill, but in the original Greek, it's you shall not murder, which is taking innocent blood.
And the deal is this.
Then it goes on in Deuteronomy 19 to say what to do if someone takes innocent blood.
And it says you take them out and you put them to death.
Then it warns if a society doesn't put them to death, the blood of the people that person slaughtered is on the hands of the society.
So what we have to do is make it balanced and make it right.
God loves life, but God loves life so much that he doesn't want it to be cheap.
If you don't have death penalty, You're basically saying to the murderers or the psychopaths, well, no big deal.
You know, you'll get three meals.
You're going to live fine.
That's not the way it was meant to be.
It had to be stopped.
And that's the logic behind the scriptures that say the death penalty is absolutely condoned by the Bible and Deuteronomy and in the Ten Commandments.
So I just wanted to clear that up.
I know it's ugly.
I don't like any form of death.
Nobody does.
That's Craig in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Just coming back to cruel and unusual punishment, it's the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution that it is addressed in.
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted is the Eighth Amendment.
This is Joe in Providence, Rhode Island.
Good morning.
You're next.
Yeah, hi.
Secular point of view here.
I spent 25 years in law enforcement.
And there's some people, they commit such horrible crimes, they're intractable.
You can never change them.
And there's no reason to keep them alive.
You know, we send perfectly good people out to war to get killed for specious reasons.
I went to Vietnam when I was a kid.
Good people are getting killed for nothing.
Because some politician like McNamara wanted to make money.
But, you know, you get people who kill children.
And, you know, he commuted a guy who killed two little girls and then killed a woman in the Navy, which is why he got the death penalty, because it was on a federal reservation.
But I don't know how he could commute people like that.
I had a guy that I arrested who had murdered somebody.
He made a deal for a manslaughter charge.
He tried to kill me and another officer when we arrested him.
He got two ADWs, a manslaughter, and drug possession.
Okay?
He was out for seven years.
And you know what?
A few months after he got out, he killed again.
He got his ex -wife to come to his apartment and he murdered her.
And then he killed himself, which was a good thing.
You know, I have a very...
Joe, how many years were you a police officer?
And did anybody you arrest for a crime ever end up on death row?
No, I can't.
No, I can't think so.
I had a guy, I had a relative who was a police officer in Chicago who was shot.
He survived, but a number of other people were killed.
The guy who shot him wound up on death row.
And he died of a drug overdose on death row.
Go figure that one out.
But that was in Menard, Illinois.
I was four and a half years with a state agency and then 21 years with a federal agency.
I ran into all kinds of people.
There were people who killed and they weren't intractable.
They made a mistake.
They still had some humanity, but there were people who had none.
Absolutely none.
How do you know who are the ones who still have some humanity left and some who don't?
You had mentioned before the stare through you, but how do you determine that in a legal system?
How do you determine that if the idea is death row versus life in prison?
You know, you have a good point, but I guess it's experiential.
I had a guy, he had about 20 buddies.
He killed all these people in Venezuela.
And we deported him back to Venezuela, even though he was a Peruvian.
And this guy was as calm as a cucumber.
He killed all these people, escaped from prison, and there was just no emotion.
The people who act crazy and angry and stuff, they're the ones who are less dangerous than the ones who are very calm.
There's no science to it.
After you deal with enough people...
You get a feel for it.
Joe, thanks for sharing your experience in Providence, Rhode Island.
Got a couple other colors waiting to get in.
This is Michael in Springville, Utah.
Good morning.
Mental illness.
I got mental illness.
I took my medicine.
Mental illness cures it.
Many people in prisons have mental illness and we need to fix our prisons so that they can
Not at all, Michael.
Thanks for bringing that aspect of this.
Appreciate it.
That's Michael in Utah.
This is Cole across the pond in England calling in.
Cole, go ahead.
Cole, what did you think?
I don't know how much of the news it was over there in England, but of Joe Biden commuting the sentences of 37 federal...
Well, they should get the death penalty for that.
Good morning.
I guess my take is that, you know, we have the Innocence Project, that people who are on death row were innocent.
So two wrongs don't make a right.
Tuning somebody to death for a crime that they did not commit isn't going to be the right thing to do.
So I guess, you know, you can't correct a death sentence if they're dead and you find out they were innocent.
And we have a lot of to fight DNA evidence.
So Mary, the numbers in the modern era of using the death penalty since the early 1970s, some 1 ,600 people have been put to death.
Since 1973, at least 200 people
Yeah, and I mean, the numbers are small.
I guess on both sides.
I mean, I don't think we sentence people to death frequently anymore.
But I guess in terms of cost, you know, spending life in prison is cheaper than death row inmates.
So I guess I just don't know.
I know that, you know, there are some people who want an eye for an eye.
But at the end of the day, you've got the right person.
I think that they just want to lock somebody up.
You have to be the right person.
And, you know, there's plenty of poor people who can afford a good test.
So I just think.
At the end of the day, the death penalty doesn't make sense to me.
It costs more money and we make mistakes, I guess my point.
That's Mary in Ohio.
This is Kwame in New York.
Good morning.
You're next.
Yes, how you doing?
Doing well.
I'm saying this, right?
Definitely, it says thou shalt not kill, right?
I'm talking about the people in the past was talking about the Bible, right?
So think about that, right?
It says thou shalt not kill, right?
That was one of the Ten Commandments, right?
So if you're saying that, we shouldn't kill nobody.
But nobody should be killing nobody.
I feel like there was so many people wrong, you know, in the court system.
The court system needs to be fixed no matter what.
Something is wrong with the court system.
But that's what I believe in.
Thou shalt not kill at all.
That's Kwame.
This is Gary in Buell, Minnesota.
Good morning.
You're next.
I kind of support it in a way.
If somebody goes out and kills a cop or somebody or anything at the schools and stuff, I think they should get rid of a few people like that, show it on TV, and let the people see what's going on.
You shouldn't go out and kill them.
But like I was thinking, everybody went in the service, they were paid to fight to kill.
And like that one woman was saying, you shouldn't kill nobody, but what if there's wars and you have to go out and kill?
So that's what I'm kind of...
Murfreesboro, Illinois is next.
This is Tim.
Good morning.
Tim, does it give you pause that some 200 people Have gotten off death row over the years?
Have had their convictions overturned?
Well, in that case, take about two, five billion out of mega millions or something and give it to the family of the people that were killed, that were innocent.
But as far as mass shooters, That's Tim in Illinois.
This is Henry in Tampa, Florida.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I'm a bit undecided about the death penalty situation because I think that, I mean, what kind of, seriously, like, what kind of death penalty are we talking about?
Are we talking about mass shooters here?
Are we talking about one individual per se?
I think that the death penalty...
Just be enforced with people that take down schools, okay?
And you have to have all the information and you have to have all the evidence.
I get it.
But to just go ahead and take one person down just because they were found with whatever that they were found?
Yeah, I get it.
But at the same time, you have to have all the evidence.
And at the same time, death penalty should be about closure.
Okay?
Parents, people need closure.
Okay?
At the same time, if you're going to go ahead and get the death penalty and you're going to go ahead and take that person down, the people that were involved in that actual crime need actual closure.
Now, that's where I get undecided because the evidence has to be there.
And if the evidence is not there, then how can anyone take any human being down with a death penalty?
That's Henry in Florida.
One more call.
This is Larry in New York.
Thanks for waiting.
Yeah, how you doing?
This is Larry.
I'd like to say, you know, as far as the death penalty, I oppose it.
And the reason why, you know, I have family members who think I think too much like a vigilante.
I'm an older gentleman in my 60s, but I was in prison for two years, maybe 30, 30 -something years ago.
I don't know if people think it's the holiday end or what.
But the thing is, that's a miserable, miserable life.
And my so -called vigilante thinking makes me feel like, let them spend life in hell, because that's what prison is really like, man.
It's hell.
Other than the point one gentleman made about the cost of caring for them for a few years or however number of years it's going to be, it's hell.
Larry, for people who...
What made it so miserable for people who are saying that life in prison is the easier way out for these people who commit horrible crimes?
What made it hell?
Well, for one thing, you have no rights.
They tell you everything to do, when to pee, when to eat, where to go.
But on top of that, you are in the midst of a lot of people who are criminals.
Criminal minds, doing stuff to each other, rapes, jumped, stabbed, killed.
It is not a holiday inn.
It's not even close.
It's hell.
Some people, when they get light, they try.
The first thing they do is take away all your, anything that you can kill yourself with.
Because they want the quick, easy out.
So I'm just saying, just people need to keep that in mind.
That prison is not the holiday inn.
Me, if they do something to my daughter or my granddaughter, I prefer them to get life in one of the hardest prisons that we have.
Which we have a few here.
Trenton.
Raleway.
It's not what people think.
I think the average person doesn't know what it's like and I don't know what they assume, but they want people, you know, killed for doing something to them or their family member.
But if they knew what prison was like, you know, again, my wife says I'm too much of a vigilante.
I want them to suffer, not have it over real quick.
Thank you.
That's Larry from Albany, New York, our last caller in this segment of the Washington Journal.
Half an hour left this morning.
In that time, we will let you take the reins of this program.
It's our open forum.
Any public policy issue, any political issue that you want to talk about, now is your time.
Phone lines for Republicans, Democrats, and Independents on your screen.
Go ahead and start calling in, and as you're calling in, we'll show you.
C -SPAN, looking back on the historic year that was 2024, some key moments from Congress, the White House, the Supreme Court, and the campaign trail.
Here's that look.
2024 was a momentous year for C -SPAN.
From continuing our decades -old tradition of providing gavel -to -gavel coverage of the House and Senate, To key committee hearings and press conferences, to landmark Supreme Court cases, and to a historic presidential election,
including both the Republican and Democratic national conventions.
Here's a look back on the year as we prepare for what's expected to be an action -packed 2025.
What kind of crack do you normally smoke, Mr. Biden?
Let me start again.
My name is Jason D. Ford, but to most I am known as Jelly Roll.
My name is Brett Favre.
I appreciate the opportunity to be here.
My name is Michael Phelps.
My name is Sho Chu, and I'm the CEO of TikTok.
Have you apologized to the victims?
I've...
Would you like to do so now?
Well, they're here, you're on national television.
Would you like now to apologize to the victims?
Tonight, all eyes are on Iowa.
I am today suspending my campaign.
The New Hampshire primary.
The time has now come to suspend my campaign.
The events were shameful, criminal, violent, all of those things, but did not qualify as insurrection.
This will be my last term as Republican leader of the Senate.
Isn't how old we are?
It's how old our ID is.
It's one of the reasons why this program is so valuable, because it does bring people together.
Without presidential immunity from criminal prosecution, there can be no presidency as we know it.
The Republican -led House will not be jammed or forced into passing a foreign aid bill.
I think providing lethal aid to Ukraine right now is critically important.
On this vote, the ayes are 311 and the nays are 112.
The bill is passed.
Declaring the office of Speaker of the House of Representatives to be vacant.
The yeas are 359, the nays are 43, with seven answering present.
Hopefully this is the end of the personality politics.
Tonight, this event is being televised live on C -SPAN.
For the next 90 minutes, we are going to be live from a brand new exhibition.
Welcome to the National Book Festival.
What's so great about C -SPAN is that you hit every side.
This was a rigged, disgraceful trial that the real verdict is going to be... November 5th.
We'd be well served to remember the long and cherished tradition we have in this country of settling our political differences at the ballot box.
Today's decision almost certainly means that there are virtually no limits on what a president can do.
Look, if we finally beat Medicare.
It was a bad night.
They're trying to push me out on the race.
I'm staying in the race!
Take a look at what happened.
I want to speak to you tonight about the need for us to lower the temperature in our politics.
The most significant operational failure of the Secret Service in decades.
I proudly accept your nomination for President of the United States.
I've decided the best way forward is to pass the torch to a new generation.
Just over a hundred days before an election, Democrat party bosses Force Joe Biden off the ballot.
There's the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos.
No place in America for anti -Semitism.
Give us the tools faster, and we'll finish the job faster.
We are here tonight!
A C -SPAN don't pay.
Wait a minute, I'm talking now.
If you don't mind, please.
Does that sound familiar?
She went out.
Never touched by a human hand.
Certainly falls into the general definition of fascist.
That's our good looking group.
Hello everybody!
There's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now.
Yeah.
I think it's called Puerto Rico?
Thanks for being with us on election night.
Look what happened, is this crazy?
This will truly be the golden age of America.
The outcome of this election is not what we wanted.
House Democrats have fallen a few seats short.
We are going to raise an America first banner above this place.
The American people have spoken.
It's a new day in the United States Senate and it's a new day in America.
Politics is tough.
And it's, in many cases, not a very nice world, but it is a nice world today, and I appreciate it very much.
A transition that's so smooth, it'll be as smooth as it can get, and I very much appreciate that, Jim.
You're welcome.
Thank you all.
Topic that you want to talk about, this is when we let you lead the discussion.
As you're calling in to let you know a few events going on here in Washington today, there's a brief pro forma session in the House that will take place at noon today.
You can watch that here on C -SPAN.
Also on C -SPAN 2.
All day today, a marathon of Trump nominees.
In their own words, C -SPAN's dug into our archives to show you events featuring nominees of the incoming Trump administration.
They include today Education Secretary nominee Linda McMahon, Treasury Secretary Scott Pesent, and former Congressman Lee Zeldin, who's been picked to head the Environmental Protection Agency.
Again, all day long on C -SPAN 2.
You can also watch on c -span .org and tune in on the free C -SPAN Now video app.
Also this week, C -SPAN's airing a series of interviews with departing members of Congress, showing lawmakers giving their farewell speeches on the House and Senate floor.
Tonight...
Go ahead.
Well, actually, I called in on the support line for the death penalty, and they just patched me on over to the open forum.
So Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everybody.
I want to say that I do support the death penalty.
Let me give you a reason why.
When that person takes another person's life, he doesn't just affect the person's life he took.
He affects everybody else's life around that person to the point of society as a whole.
So when he violates those people's rights, why should that person have any?
His family can still come see him in prison without the death penalty.
The people who lost a family member will never see that person again.
So you need to think about these things.
And then the second thing I'd like to say since it is an open forum is I would like to ask the Democratic Party to please do their best to work with Donald Trump.
And I would like to ask the Republican Party to please grow up and quit the infighting.
Other than that...
Everybody have a great year.
Thank you so much, John.
That's Roy in Texas.
This is Lan, Oakdale, Pennsylvania, Republican.
Go ahead.
Hi.
I'm a first -time caller.
I listened to your previous program, and I just had to call in.
I read a book on questions and answers for the Bible, and that was one of them.
And the Old Testament says, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
And the New Testament says, if anyone should take a person's life in cold -blooded murder, so shall their life be taken.
And I just, I read that I had to call in.
Thank you for taking my call.
That's Lan.
This is Ann, Georgia.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I just wanted to touch on the base of the.
Uh, illegal immigrants have been coming over and uh, so many, many millions that we don't even know how many, but it has affected our grocery prices, it's affected our taxes and um, it's uh gonna I believe it's gonna be uh, if we don't do something about it very soon, get them out of here.
Uh, we're going to go broke.
The big fish eat little fish And there won't be any little fish to feed those big fish later on.
And how has illegal immigrants impacted your grocery prices?
Oh my God.
I mean, it's taken more food.
The farmers don't even get treated right.
They're under so many restrictions.
And how much, I mean, food can you, I mean, we're running, we're going to run out of food.
You can't feed the whole world.
United States cannot feed the world.
A lot of our food don't even come from this country.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing that we import food?
That's a bad thing.
That's Ann in Georgia.
This is Cynthia in Youngstown, Ohio.
Democrat.
Good morning.
Happy holidays to you.
Thanks for your service.
I think that one thing that we're looking at Historically, we're kind of in a battle for the truth right now because the effect of social media and of podcasts,
which I think played the critical role in this past election, they have blurred the lines between reality and virtual reality.
We've been affected by Content in video games, which is hugely affected this young generation coming up.
And I urge parents out there as someone who works with kids to please take breaks.
Get your kids off those games for periods of time and pay attention to who they're talking to and what they're doing on there.
So that's the effect on the kids, but the effects on adults.
It's more alarming.
Adults should have a better filter, and adults, like the woman who was just on there, nothing she said was true.
Immigrants do not hurt the economy.
There's research to support this.
They help the economy.
They are brought in by corporations as a cheap group of workers.
They always have been throughout our history, since the start of industrialization.
They've been, and even before that, because they're a cheap labor force and they're motivated by wanting their freedom and working toward their freedom.
They're a great workforce.
They help the economy.
Okay, we were affected, our economy was affected by problems with the supply chain and trying to catch up from that, all caused by the pandemic.
Okay, which I feel Dated into history, nobody talked about the ongoing effects of it, okay?
We wanted to move on from it.
And the Democrats, they have to bear responsibility for not talking about that more.
Cynthia, you said you work with children.
What line of work are you in?
I've been in education, okay?
And I've also worked as a counselor with kids.
And you mentioned podcasts.
Okay, first of all, Kamala Harris went on a show called Call Her Daddy, which is women talking about women's things,
but not necessarily important women's issues.
It's a lot of personal women's issues, and it kind of toes the line between Something you would see in Cosmopolitan Magazine.
And then some serious issues affecting women.
Okay, so easy for you're not going to get many men or women who take themselves seriously to really listen to that.
So she has like 4 million, 3 million listeners.
Joe Rogan has 15 million.
Joe Rogan, if...
People who listen to him look back into his past.
He's from New Jersey.
He's 5 '8 and weighs 150 pounds.
Look at him on TV or look at him on his podcast.
He looks like a big wrestler type guy.
He's a completely made -up formula, and that's what the Republicans, and they're not Republicans anymore.
They're zealots.
That's what they are.
And, you know, he has a formula, and it's about arousing people, and it's about empowerment for men.
It's full of testosterone.
The guy's a taekwondo champion.
He talks about, read his history.
It's very interesting.
And he is an interesting person.
He was in comedy.
He tried a lot of different things before he found this niche.
That's Cynthia in Ohio.
This is Anthony in Florida.
Independent.
Good morning.
You're next.
Good morning, Vic, John.
John, happy holidays to you.
Welcome back.
We done had a treat all week.
We done had you.
We done had Pedro, Mimi, who I call Mimi, my, my.
And we done had Gretch, the queen of awesomeness.
And we thank you all.
But I want to talk about a couple.
Thank you all for the great show.
The death penalty, man, is a challenging issue.
But I think those that are proven to be predators, that serial murderers, man, it's hard not to, you know, look at, you know, the death penalty from them.
And then also the last thing, Ken Walsh, he was a jolly guy.
It seemed like his writing is one of a great saint.
And then if I seen him, I would call him Nick.
That's Anthony in Florida.
This is Danny in Arkansas.
Democrat.
Good morning.
I'm not providing news updates as we're sitting here having that conversation, Danny, but I can check or you could Google as well.
The one issue I see we're not really divided on is school security, and the question keeps popping into my head, well, they can't afford magnetometers, you know how much a school resource officer costs, so forth and so on,
but they all seem to dump a fortune into school athletics.
I mean, right there, there's a huge chunk of change, but they will not touch high school sports, and it just...
Danny, cops and metal detectors in high schools, I'm assuming you're saying, yes?
I'm sorry, say again?
You want cops and metal detectors in every high school, yes?
I think there should be because everybody has...
What about middle schools?
What about elementary schools, Danny?
I'm for that also.
I mean, it's a general school budget, my understanding.
Preschools, Danny?
I'm sorry, say again?
Preschools?
I think they should all.
Public schools, yes.
I think they should all do that.
I mean, as a homeowner, the majority of your property tax goes to the school district.
So a homeowner should also have a say in this.
It's like, my taxes are so high because so much goes to the school.
This is why I think you ought to appropriate some money.
Not for football or basketball teams.
School security.
Back in my day, it was a joke if some fool phoned in a bomb threat.
Nowadays, kids just...
I wouldn't bug a kid for not wanting to go to school.
It's...
Now let's talk about mental health and we should work on this and do that.
Start at the beginning.
Look where you're spending your budgetary money and put it towards something useful.
That's Danny in Arkansas.
This is Alan, also in the natural state, independent.
Go ahead.
Well, I noticed that.
I noticed that.
Two Arkansas callers in a row.
So good morning.
Happy New Year to everyone and especially to you, John.
I know you've recognized my call when it's come in before, which has surprised me, but I have a compliment and a criticism, if you'll allow me.
Sure.
First, on your hosting, truly, I think the word is grace, that you extended to that caller in the previous half hour.
I know you have, Alan.
Anna from Ukraine.
But yes, thank you.
But anyway, about George Washington.
Since you guys, I'm a retired history teacher, as I've mentioned before, and absolutely love George Washington and all the examples that he set.
And so I would assign students one assignment to read the abuses listed in the Declaration of Independence.
There's about 29 of them by my count.
And I'd ask them to select the worst abuse of those 29 abuses.
And the other was to assign George Washington's list of his rules of civility that he lived by.
He memorized them all.
And he lived by them.
And I wish you, my suggestion is, I wish you guys would list one of those abuses each day, one of those rules of civility that he lived by.
Just list one each day and give him credit, since you use his name, rightly so, and the capital behind you, which he laid the first foundation stone on.
And he set the example.
My criticism is the division of Republican -Democrat calling.
That is so against his...
He said, no, stop the party divisions.
And that's why he instituted the rule, which we went by early on, that the most votes elects the president, the next most votes elects the vice president.
And I just ask everyone to imagine, right now, Donald Trump, president, and the Democrat candidate would be the vice president.
And think about the other elections having the most votes elect the president.
And next most votes elects the vice president.
And people would be satisfied with that.
You wouldn't have this party division.
And of course, the parties took over, which are profit -oriented entities, like selling cereal and whatever, cars or whatever.
And we've allowed these political parties to divide our country.
And George Washington said...
Do not do that.
So I ask you, please, stop the party selection, Republican, Democrat stuff, and just make it regional.
There's a whole age, marital status.
And Alan, we do do that on occasion.
Sometimes with these political issues that are happening on Capitol Hill, it helps.
People give some information about the caller's background or what they identify with, but I appreciate the thought.
I did want to ask you, and I'm running short on time.
You talk about the abuses and usurpations listed in the Declaration of Independence, and you had your students figure out what the worst one was.
Of those 27, what do you think the worst was?
Well, it's the one they chose every time, and thank you for staying on to ask that, because I completely forgot that was the point I was wanting to make.
Which of the 27 would you pick?
Yes, yes.
Listen to this.
It is so stunning.
It is absolutely stunning.
It says...
I've got it.
I pulled it up here to read it.
It says he, referring to the King of England, get this, referring to the King of England, he says he has excited domestic insurrections among us, causing riots among us, in other words.
And he has...
endeavored to bring on the same insurrection from foreigners to come in against us, and that he has incited our native citizens to war against us.
And list that those on board ships That he had taken captive on the high seas, he says, were forced to become the executioners of their own citizens, in other words, shooting other ships coming off, leaving shore,
or die by their own hands.
That phrase right there.
In other words, they jumped overboard.
Rather than to shoot their own fellow Americans, those citizens that the English took captive jumped overboard.
Rather than fire on their own fellow Americans.
That one abuse right there tells the history of our revolution, and George Washington was reminding us all to remember that and to keep our unity in our country.
So please, please, stop just the party division, which he said, do not do party division.
So...
Alan, I appreciate it.
Thanks.
Enjoy talking to you from Arkansas.
We'll talk again in 2025.
Santos is in Sterling, Illinois.
Republican, good morning.
Good morning, John.
How are you this morning?
Doing well.
Great.
I wish you well and all your good work.
I just have a comment.
I recently caught Muska Ramaswamy and their participation in their doge.
That they were talking about some of their cuts that they want to make to save all this money.
One of them was to cut Pell, the grant system here, completely, not partially just cut it.
Yet they speak about recruiting engineers and others from other countries because we just don't have the people.
And Trump was on a news program speaking that anyone who were to come here to get even a junior college degree or a further educational degree in our country should get an automatic green card.
They're talking about how we're depleted in our I guess higher learning pupils yet at the same time they want to cut any facilitation that's going to help them complete That endeavor that we all need as this country does lack in its higher education graduates,
but also if you're saying that we're going to open the door to, you know, having immigrants come and take these higher educational jobs or come here and get educated for these jobs,
why not give our kids the same chance?
One of my sons is in computer science.
The other one's going to be a teacher.
They're both in school.
I'm an electrician retired by trade, but yet I'm barely able to afford, with the help of Pell Grants and the scholarships they win, as they're both 4 .0 students, to push them through college.
It's very difficult for us.
They don't even use housing.
They drive.
It's an hour away.
But I just don't understand it and why they're talking.
With all those efforts to cut the cost of college,
How much do you estimate your boys will be graduating college?
How much debt do you think they'll have when they graduate?
Because I believe we've approached this in a very systematic way and we're sticking to the plan, we may have what's considered a very low bill, if you will, for both of them, right around $25 ,000, which, as you know,
is probably about one of the lowest student debts that you're going to come out with a master's degree.
Is that $25 ,000?
For each one or $25 ,000 total?
For each one, for each one.
And that's if everything goes well and they do not cut the Pell funding.
That's with that in play.
And if the Pell funding goes that you use, what is that cost you think becomes?
Have you gamed that out?
Yes, you could add about $7 ,500 per year.
So it would be $7 ,500.
So more than double the debt if the Pell Grant system goes?
Very much.
Today, it's very difficult.
I heard one of your callers talking about the division.
I wrote my first book, John, and it got published.
And it's on Barnes & Noble, and it's all about treating each other right, getting rid of division, not paying attention to the party's affiliation of each one of us, treating your neighbor like a brother, you know?
And it's not doing that well because, you know, as far as books go, it seems like...
We're the last bastion, surviving bastion of people who read who might be interested in such knowledge.
Well, Santos, if you write a book, you always got to mention the book's title.
What is it?
It's called Jesus Saves Coming Soon, and my writer's name is St. Ney, spelled with an N -E and a hyphen above it.
It's on Barnes & Noble, it's on Amazon, Walmart, Target.
A paperback or a hardback.
And like I said, it's not really about religion, even the name might say that.
It's about faith.
It's about faith in each other, faith in Christ, treating each other right.
And I thank God for people such as yourself, because we have a mutual endeavor with you, John, and that is to get the word out there, see what people really think, the minds of America.
You know, and I bless you for doing your job, and you do it well.
That's Santos in Sterling, Illinois, our last caller in the Washington Journal this morning, but we'll, of course, be back here tomorrow morning.
It is 7 a .m. Eastern.
It is 4 a .m. Pacific.
In the meantime, hope you have a great Friday.
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The decision really came when he called in Leon Jaworski, who was the special prosecutor.
And he asked him, he says, how long can Nixon drag this out in the courts?
And Leon Jaworski told him three, four, maybe five years.
And I think at that point, Dad just said, enough is enough.
We can't drag this country down for the next three, four, five years.
We've got to move on.
America has to rise up, and we have to leave Nixon behind.
And legally, he was the only person that could do it.
All this week, we've been showing you encore presentations of our weekly interview program, Q &A.
And tonight, we conclude the marathon with a behind -the -scenes look at Gerald Ford's presidency from the perspective of his son, Stephen Ford.
Mr. Ford details what it was like when President Nixon resigned from office in 1974, when Gerald Ford was subsequently sworn in as the 38th President of the United States, and his father's decision to pardon Richard Nixon.
Watch at 7 p .m. Eastern on C -SPAN, C -SPAN Now, our free mobile app, or online at c -span .org.
Good morning.
It's Friday, December 27th, 2024.
A three -hour Washington Journal is ahead, and we begin on the topic of the death penalty.
We're good to go.
We're good to go.
It's at C -SPAN WJ on Facebook.
It's facebook .com slash C -SPAN.
And a very good Friday morning to you.
You can go ahead and start calling in now.
This was the headline from Monday by the Associated Press.
President Biden gives life in prison to 37 of 40 federal death row inmates before Trump can resume executions.
This was the statement that President Biden put out along with that move.
Make no mistake, he said in that statement, I condemn these murderers, grieve for the victims of their despicable acts.
Thank you.
Thank you.
That was President Biden on Monday.
It was followed by a statement on Truth Social by Donald Trump.
This is what he said.
The president -elect saying, as soon as I'm inaugurated, I will direct the Justice Department to vigorously pursue the death penalty to protect American families and children from violent rapists and murderers and monsters.
We will be a nation of law and order again, promised the president -elect.
We'll get right to the phones.
Mark is up first out of Oklahoma on that line for those who support the use of the death penalty.