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Good morning.
It's Saturday, December 14th.
Polls showed that the biggest issue for voters this past election was the economy, and especially inflation.
During the campaign, Donald Trump promised that, once in office, he would bring down prices quickly and make America more affordable.
This morning, we're asking, what is your confidence level in President -elect Trump to tackle inflation?
Give us a call and share your thoughts.
Republicans are on 202 -748 -8001, Democrats 202 -748 -8000, and Independents 202 -748 -8002.
You can send us a text to 202 -748 -8003, include your first name and your city -state, and we're on social media, facebook .com slash c -span and x at c -span wj.
Welcome to today's Washington Journal.
We're glad you're with us.
We'll start with a headline from the Wall Street Journal that says this.
Inflation is stuck.
Can Trump unstick it?
Trump has promised to tame prices, but even a president can only do so much.
Here's a portion of that article.
It says, But they were up 27 % from February of 2020.
Overall, consumer prices were up 2 .7 % in November from a year earlier, a far cry from the 9 .1 % notched in 2022, but still a tad higher than the month before.
New data Thursday showed that a month -over -month change in producer prices was more than economists had expected.
Well, in his interview on Sunday on Meet the Press, President -elect Trump spoke about his economic goals, including grocery prices.
I'm looking to make our country great.
I'm looking to bring prices down because, you know, I want on two things, the border and more than immigration.
You know, they like to say immigration.
I break it down more to the border, but I want on the border and I want on groceries.
It's a very simple word, groceries, like almost...
You know, who uses the word?
I started using the word, the groceries.
When you buy apples, when you buy bacon, when you buy eggs, they would double and triple the price over a short period of time.
And I won an election based on that.
We're going to bring those prices way down.
That was on Sunday, and we got this on Facebook.
William says, gotta be better than the current administration because they didn't bother with it at all.
Good morning, Mimi.
How are you today?
Thank you for taking my call.
Mimi, the columnist Jennifer Rubin stated recently that America suffers from an epidemic of ignorance.
America has never educated its people in economics, so therefore no one understands what causes inflation and how tariffs work.
Now, my understanding is If you print 8 trillion extra dollars to pay for the pandemic, you're going to have inflation.
That's just natural.
You can't print extra money without causing the price of goods to go down, or go up, I'm sorry.
And of course, a tariff is just a tax on items that we're going to import, which means that, yes, the government will get the money from the tax.
Now what my understanding is...
So, Melvin, what do you think is going to happen in the next administration with prices?
Because they're going to be passing on those increases to the consumer.
Now, if he had just stuck with the plan that we have, we would eventually, as you can see, interest rates were obviously because that was the process that was needed in order to get inflation down,
and inflation was coming down.
But because the American people don't have any patience, You know, they see the price of eggs, or they see the price of gas, and they think that Biden wasn't doing a good job.
He was actually doing the proper thing.
All right, Melvin.
This is Roy in California.
Republican, good morning.
Hi, good morning.
My name is Roy Dean.
I'm calling here from Chino, California.
I was born and raised in Nashville, recently moved to...
Southern California here, my two sisters and their families live in Riverside.
My wife Peggy and I have been divorced, remarried three times, but anyway, I won't get into my personal life.
I was just setting that up, the fact that I am broke is a joke.
I'm living on about $2 ,000 a month in Southern California.
So trust me when I tell you, this inflation pain, it is real.
So to quote President Trump, very simple terms, he won on the word groceries.
Here's how, for some reason, a lot of the people don't seem to understand this.
If the price of diesel fuel is $6 a gallon, who pays for that, ultimately?
You think that Walmart and Target are going to pay for that?
No, it gets passed on to the consumer, and that is how.
Now, he's not going to wave a magic wand and get inflation.
He's not going to create deflation, which is actually a bad thing.
A lot of people don't know that.
The fact that he's going to drill, baby drill, and get the price of oil down to record lows we've never seen, that is how the price of groceries are going to go down.
All right, Roy.
Let's talk to Anna in South Windsor, Connecticut.
Democrat.
Hi, Anna.
Hi.
Good morning.
Morning.
Yes, I live from day to day, and I try to budget and buy what I need, not what I want.
But Mimi, I'm calling in today to ask us The president's wife, Jill, if she could please take care of the president health -wise.
They need to put a hat on now.
It's cold.
He go to Africa.
He didn't wear a mask.
Just the ordinary protections here.
And I also would like to say that I believe, I believe, or I think it's possible that Musk could have... ...rigged those numbers for election,
and he may be behind those drones, but he's quiet.
My main thing today, and I'll be quiet, is on our president, our secretary, Blinken.
Please, somebody do something for him.
He's the hardest working person.
Give him New York Times, President Biden, give him some kind of award.
Even if Trump comes in and do it.
He needs to be recognized.
Alright, Anna.
Julio, Auburn, Washington.
Republican.
I think we ought to give Donald Trump a chance and let all you guys that are experts about financing and everything, just let him give him a chance.
Bring down the cost of gas, natural gas, healthcare.
We got a governor in the state of Washington that's a fool.
He's stepping down or he's lost his election.
He's not even going to live in the state of Washington.
He's moving to Idaho.
And you guys in the media, give him a chance.
Thank you.
Andrew, Sterling, Virginia, Democrat.
Hi, Andrew.
Good morning, Mimi.
Happy holidays.
You too.
I just want to say right off the bat that I have never been more ashamed of this country for re -electing this traitorous... Sexual predator moron for a president once again.
To the American people, especially those like your previous caller who said drill, baby, drill is the solution to all these high prices.
We have basically sold out our country over the price of bacon and eggs and gas.
How ridiculous is that?
All these Americans who have died over the years, these generations that fought in World War II and fought in all these wars.
We're good to go.
These people who voted for Trump.
But, you know, people voted for Trump to lower prices.
So don't you think that that's going to be a major priority for him, Andrew?
No, it will not be a priority for him.
Why not?
His priority will be just simply to enrich himself, his family, and his billionaire buddies.
I guarantee you, I guarantee you, the first thing they're going to do is go after Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, because that's where the money's at.
All this talk about removing $2 trillion or worth out of the budget is a joke.
Those entitlements is where the money's at.
And they will take that money out to further give tax cuts to the corporations and the billionaires.
That's their only concern.
And Americans, mark my words, in four years, they will be worse off than they ever have again.
So this stupid talk about drill, baby, drill is the solution to everything is so ridiculous and so ignorant.
All right, Andrew.
And earlier this week, President Biden gave a speech about his economic policy achievements, and he acknowledged that prices are still too high for Americans.
Of course, this economic growth is not without pain.
The entire world faced a spike in inflation due to disruptions from the pandemic and Putin's war in Ukraine.
We acted quickly to get inflation down with the help of Republicans and Democrats.
We're good to go.
I think?
We're taking your calls on your confidence level in President -elect Trump to tackle inflation.
And this is the USA Today with this inflation ticked up again in November.
Will the Fed cut rates next week?
It says that inflation is moving in the wrong direction.
U .S. inflation picked up for a second straight month in November on a rise in food and gas prices, underscoring the final stretch of the Federal Reserve's two -year battle against sharply rising prices has become more challenging.
And it says that it describes what's meant by core inflation.
Thank you.
I think that he's going to do a great job.
The caller from Virginia and a lot of these Democrats are hallucinating.
How can they even say the last four years have been good when everything's tripled in price?
I think also he'll secure the border and we'll get these prices down on food.
It's ridiculous.
I'm living on a Social Security check and I'm barely getting by and I own my home and I can barely get by.
Trump did it before.
He'll do it again.
Thank you.
So, Bill, before you go, I want to ask you about tariffs because there's a Reuters article here with the headline, Americans are sour on tariffs if they spark inflation.
What do you think about the tariffs that President -elect Trump has promised to impose?
And do you think that those will raise prices or will they help the economy?
I really don't think he's going to raise tariffs.
I think that's just the ploy to get everybody to wake up and work with America instead of fighting America.
Mexico is not our friend.
They're letting these people through.
Why don't they drill some wells down in Mexico and start new towns down there when these people come from all these other countries that are dictatorships?
Also, why can't we send troops in there and take out those dictatorships that are killing those people?
There's a lot of things that can be done.
I don't think he's going to do the tariffs.
I think that's just something to get everybody to go along with what he wants to do.
Got it.
And this is Nina in McAlpin, Florida.
Democrat.
Good morning.
Morning.
Yes, I am a proud Democrat, and I feel like the inflation will go down, and we've got a new regime coming of very smart people.
The people calling in, if they were so good at economics, they would be running for president or trying to change their states.
And if you look at the state of Washington and California and Oregon, there is no hope for those people over there, but they think they're experts on it.
So, Nina, let me ask you, you said the people coming in, are there cabinet nominees or people?
Coming into the new administration that you especially admire when it comes to the economy?
People that are coming in from the outside of the government.
The government, these are new people with new ideas and common sense, and we have got to change the attitude of our government employees and the people up there.
I don't want to lay everybody off, but we have got to We're good.
All right, Nina, and this is USA Today.
Some of Trump's nominees have drawn fierce criticism why his Treasury pick has a smoother path, and this is on USA Today if you want to read it,
and it talks about Treasury nominee Scott Besant and his background.
And Rob in Port Crane, New York, Independent.
Hi, Rob.
Good morning, Nina.
You know, I'd like to know who picks your stories that you guys talk about.
Yesterday it was, you know, do you support term limits for the Supreme Court for like the fifth time?
You know?
So anyway, to today's question, Donald Trump is going to, he's got to help because everything Joe Biden and Democrats have done for the last four years has been negative.
Our borders are still open.
People still dying from fentanyl.
You know, we've still got a media that we can't trust that lies to us every single day.
So, you know, are they going to change?
Because I really don't think that America's going to put up with this crap any longer, having a media lie to us every single day.
Rob, who do you trust in the media?
Where do you get your news?
Who do I trust?
Well, I trust people you've probably never heard of.
People like, oh, let's see, Jimmy Dore, Tucker Carlson.
You know, anybody who's not mainstream, lamestream, because if I see CNN, MSNBC, any of the networks, or even people on your channel, I assume that every word coming out of their mouth is a lie,
because we have years and years of experience to prove that.
So, as far as the media goes, you really have to look elsewhere, because if you're turning on the TV hoping to get some kind of news that matters, you're not getting anything at all.
And this thing with the drones that's going on right now, is our government that inept?
They really don't know where they're coming from?
So, Rob, I do want to let you know that we are going to have an entire segment on drones and drone security at 8 a .m., so I hope you stay with us on that, and we'll get a lot more detail.
Kenny in Kentucky, Republican.
Hi, Kenny.
Hey.
How's it going?
It's going great.
That's great.
I just wanted to comment on the guy a while ago, the Democrat, talking about poor old Trump and all these taxes and stuff.
He's just threatening to do that.
You know, it works from both sides.
They're going to come in and have their little meetings and stuff.
They ain't going to be taxed to death over all these other countries.
You know, that's the way I see it.
And he's going to make the country good again, hopefully.
You know, everyone gives him a chance instead of bringing him up on charges again.
All right, Kenny, and President -elect Trump defended his approach to tariffs at that interview on Meet the Press on Sunday.
Here's a portion.
Economists of all stripes say that ultimately consumers pay the price of tariffs.
I don't believe it.
Can you guarantee American families won't pay more?
I can't guarantee anything.
I can't guarantee tomorrow.
But I can say that if you look at my, just pre -COVID, we had the greatest economy in the history of our country.
And I had a lot of tariffs on a lot of different countries, but in particular China.
We took in hundreds of billions of dollars and we had no inflation.
In fact, when I handed it over, they didn't have inflation for a year and a half.
They wanted almost two years.
And Steve sent us this on X.
He says, considering his, quote, solution, which is tariffs, is inflationary, I have zero confidence.
Yes, about Trump being able to do anything with the economy.
I like to remind some people You showed a little clip on Biden talking about COVID.
When Trump was in office and we had COVID, you had people lined up in cars for miles waiting in line to get boxes of food and boxes of water.
That was part of what created the inflation and it was worldwide.
Biden did an excellent job.
He created more jobs for Americans than had been in the past.
The other thing, and so we know prices went up because of that COVID incident.
Another thing, Trump put tariffs on the farmers, on not the farmers, on China.
And the farmers had to pay for it.
So what did Trump do?
He had to offer The farmers are bailout.
He had to give them billions of dollars because their seeds were rotting in the ground and in silos.
Now what is Trump planning on doing?
He got Robert F. Kennedy, who don't believe in vaccines.
If we didn't have a vaccine, what would have happened to us during COVID in 2019 if we didn't have vaccines?
So he's cutting back.
on on vaccines which and and i i don't know that's crazy but the other thing is now too he's gonna they're gonna cut the healthcare so you're not gonna have vaccines you're not gonna have the healthcare that's going into medicaid medicare he's going into social security he's going to cut all of the uh uh medical
All right, Paul, we're getting a little bit off the subject here, but let me move on to Jim in Highland, Indiana.
Republican.
Good morning, Jim.
So Jim, I hear your point.
We're going to talk about drones.
Okay.
Trump, once he has to do it, his objective is naturally to get jobs in and to do that.
He has to create more jobs inward.
He has to get some of these companies like John Deere and Whirlpool that are now new factories or building new factories in Mexico back here.
Now, how is he going to do it?
He's going to put a high tariff on.
And who's that going to affect?
It's going to affect China.
China's going to have a backlog.
How's China going to get us?
Well, they do some of the chemicals for farmers and other situations.
There's one plus we've got about Trump right now.
This is his time.
He wants to be practically have his head on that mountain Rushmore.
So to do that, he's got to make everybody happy.
Now, how can you make one person happy and another person sad?
That's where the dilemma is.
When I was overseas, the person in Taiwan told me one thing I never forget.
When we make a product, we make it So that it sells in the U .S.
But we have one big card we can play with China.
And it's a bad card because it could lead to World War III like we did with Japan.
We have to step down and either go the way of having everything come in cheap
All right, Jim.
We're going to move on to Leon in Laurel, Maryland.
Independent line.
Donald Trump is the personification of every white male that black people and native people have encountered since...
So Leon, what do you think about the inflation specifically?
All that was...
Obama had cleaned up George Bush's mess.
What had happened was Trump inherited a very strong economy.
He muffed the pandemic to the max.
He should be charged with negligent homicide for 450 ,000 deaths in the pandemic because he did nothing with that.
If you don't believe me, check out the people who was in his cabinet.
That talked about him.
All his critics.
These are not Democrats.
These are not independents.
These are Republicans.
I mean, the man is...
I had to give it to him.
He's a superb, kind artist.
He inflated the country $6 trillion in debt.
He did absolutely nothing, and he's not going to do anything now, because if you have a person who...
I first got...
All right, Leo.
We got to move on to Julie in St. Paul, Minnesota.
Democrat.
Good morning, Julie.
Oh, sorry.
Oh, can you hear me?
Yes, we can.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Yeah, I'm probably going to be saying some of the same things that I've heard from others on the inflation.
The inflation came down with Biden.
I think he did a lot of things to make that happen.
And yeah, it did pick up here in November.
But this isn't all the president's responsibility either.
And a lot of it is what he called greedflation.
Once the prices get up there, these companies are taking advantage of that.
And that was what he was working with.
That is not easy to come back down again.
And I...
I heard somebody talking about the tariffs, with how you put tariffs on one thing and then it, then it affects another sector, like with the steel with China, and then another thing too, China quit taking a lot of our, our garbage, our plastic waste because of that deal.
So there's all kinds of consequences for these tariffs that people don't realize and I don't think it's just a threat.
Like another caller said, he's going to do it and And he's going to cause more and more hard relations.
He's already done that with Mexico and Canada after he, you know, he updated the last deal with them.
And now he's going after them, calling Canada the 51st state or, you know, suggesting very insulting, very, very insulting.
And what I don't understand is all the people cowing down to him.
People need to stand up to this.
And one more thing about this topic that I haven't heard yet this morning is on the great deportation.
And all these people that are working and have been here for years and working, and they are paying taxes.
And they are paying towards our Social Security and everything.
And I agree with another caller.
These billionaires, they're going to go after our Social Security and Medicare system.
And it's just pure nonsense for him to even talk one little bit about cutting taxes for the rich.
But that's who he's in there for.
He is in there for the billionaires.
And anyone that thinks different, I don't know what they're watching.
Fox and all these other people that nobody has heard of.
From all that I hear, From the Republicans, from the Trumpers, you know what?
They don't dig very deep.
I read a lot of articles.
Every time they come up with something, I read and read.
They have the same old line, and guess where it comes from?
Fox News.
Got it, Julie.
And also in Minneapolis, on the Republican line, Richard, you're next.
Yes, good morning.
Morning.
Wow, I can't believe all of the lies.
If you're white, you're a racist, and you're going to take away the Social Security.
That's a bunch of hogwash.
I wish people would get informed.
You have to read one of Trump's books, The Art of the Deal.
You know, a lot of his tax talk or his tariff talks are, you know, bluffs to these other countries.
You can't just come out and say, oh, well, I'm bluffing.
You know, he has to follow through.
One other thing, a couple other things.
Let me do two other things.
The tariffs Trump put on China were not revoked by Biden.
And we saved our steel industry.
What if we had a war?
We'd have to have a steel industry.
So he saved the steel industry, which...
Many Republicans and Democrats were bought off and gave the industry to these other countries.
So it's just disgusting how uninformed people are.
They get on there and they call them all kinds of names.
Racist.
And we've been through all that and people read through it and took over the House and Senate.
It's terrible.
I just can't believe it.
And, you know, the inflation was started by Biden putting all those restrictions on oil drilling.
He stopped that pipeline.
And then he stopped all the oil drilling on ANWR and government land.
And that spiked the inflation all over the world.
And people don't understand it.
There was a farmer on...
the channel and he said, well, I got to put on 200 pounds of nitrogen for every acre of land and in order to get a crop and the nitrogen's made out of oil.
And then he's got a big combine, a big truck and a big tractor.
He's got to buy gas for all that.
Most farmers nowadays they got to have a thousand acres or more in order to even get a three percent profit.
So I wish people would get informed.
Got it, Richard.
This was an interview with Time Magazine.
You may know that Time Magazine chose President -elect Donald Trump as their person of the year for the second time this year.
And they asked him this question.
If the prices of groceries don't come down, will your presidency be a failure?
And this is what he said.
I don't think so.
Look, they got them up.
Congratulations, President -elect Trump.
You convince your voters in America the sky's falling, but I got news for you.
It's not.
No president, no president has the jurisdiction and authority over the free market.
No one.
But people correlate gas prices with the prices of goods.
Prices of gas has been decreasing for the past two years.
So why hasn't a Whopper or a Bitmap The price going backwards.
I got news for you.
I don't trust a convicted felon and a person convicted of fraud.
I don't trust anything he says.
But the voters spoke, and they do.
Six months from now, 12 months from now, the prices of goods are still going to increase.
He's bamboozling you and all you African Americans who voted for him.
Look at his cabinet.
Not a one black person on his cabinet.
But he's a president for everyone.
Have a nice day.
This is what J .D. Redding sent us on X.
And Duke in Stonington, Maine.
Independent.
What do you think, Duke?
Yes, good morning, C -SPAN.
I have zero confidence in Donald Trump doing anything about the economy, about inflation.
I don't know who can.
I think this whole inflation and economy thing has gotten so out of hand.
I don't think any one person is going to be able to do anything.
What does that mean, Duke?
What does it mean to go belly up?
Like a depression.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, yes, and I hate to think it, because I tell you, if it happens this time, you think 29 was bad, it's going to look like a cakewalk to what it's going to be today.
Why do you think we would go into a depression?
Well, I don't want to say that we're going to, but, I mean, how else are you going to, whether if you've gone so far in the hole and stuff, I mean, and it looks like that there's no way that you're going to be able to,
you know, Bring your finances and stuff under control.
You know, people file bankruptcy.
I mean, what else can you do?
I'm just thinking that there's just so much, you know, that we are in the hole so far and stuff.
And it makes me laugh when Donald Trump says about buying groceries.
This guy ain't bought a dozen eggs or a gallon of milk in his life.
Somebody else does the buying for him.
And they just, you know, put on his...
All right.
Okay, sorry, were you going to say something else?
No.
Okay.
No, that's it.
Norman in Morristown, Pennsylvania, Democrat.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Thank you for taking my call.
I'm a first -year listener and a first -time caller.
Regarding food prices and the whining Americans on the left and the right, are you aware there was a bird flu epidemic that caused the death of hundreds of millions of chickens and therefore raised the price of eggs and chicken?
Out of the 130 nations that are part of the UN, which country would you want to move to that has lower food?
Are you already packing up or are you staying home and continuing your uninformed whining?
With the large number of slaughterhouse workers now scheduled to be deported by Trump's new immigration policy, what are the names and addresses of your family members and friends who will now be stepping into those jobs under the same working conditions and wages to keep food prices low as possible?
The same question applies to the field workers in the 90 degree heat and humidity who will now be deported.
The same question applies to workers repairing, replacing, and building new roofs in 90 degree plus heat and humidity who will now be deported.
The same question applies to the workers doing landscaping and snow removal while everyone else is sleeping who will now be deported.
Same question applies to the workers making the beds And doing other hotel motel work for tips who will now be deported.
And you think food prices are not going to immediately and dramatically go up?
It's estimated it will cost nearly $1 trillion to deport these people who are planned for deportation.
What else could be done with that nearly $1 trillion if not to add it to the national debt?
All right, Norman.
Got your point.
Robert, Greenville, Texas, Independent Line.
Good morning.
Morning.
I'm going to try and make this as simple as I can.
Anytime you put a tariff on imported goods, it rises the cost of those goods substantially.
And anytime you rise the price, obviously the price that the consumer pays.
Robert, let me ask you a question because a caller brought this up.
Mr. Trump did put tariffs on in his first term and Mr. Biden kept those tariffs.
So what do you think of that?
Well, that's past history.
I mean, what Trump's talking about now is going to be putting additional tariffs in.
It's only going to raise the prices.
Do you think that those tariffs were responsible for raising prices before?
The previous tariffs?
I'm just asking.
No.
I think we came off of a catastrophe across the world with the COVID and, you know, businesses were shut down and everything.
When everybody left their jobs and went home, it had to have massive outlays from the government to support these people.
I mean, Trump ran up about an $8 trillion deficit.
Biden, of course, he's added another four or five to it.
But all that deficit, it cuts into the government's ability to keep these programs going.
But tariffs are not.
I mean, it's, like I said, it's a simple way.
You know, if you take the product that consumers buy in this country and you add an additional, let's just say, 25%, like Canada and Mexico are on, well,
who's going to pay that 25 %?
Trump makes a claim that somehow those countries are going to be, like, sending us a check for each, you know, container ship that comes into port.
Well, there are some port duties, but that's not where the tariffs get paid.
The tariffs get paid when those products are consumed, when they're bought at the store.
So, will his tariffs have any influence on inflation?
Yeah, absolutely.
It's going to raise the cost of those goods.
It's really that simple.
All right, Robert.
And Republican Senator Rick Scott of Florida was on CNBC, and he talked about efforts the Trump administration and the Republican -controlled Congress will work on together to reduce inflation.
The American public knows that inflation is tied to wasteful government spending.
There are so many people engaged in this now around the country that say $36 trillion of debt is too much.
Another 15 minutes left in this segment to talk about inflation, your confidence level in President -elect Trump.
Yes, good morning.
Thank you for taking my call.
I have a quick comment and a question.
The comment is, I have complete confidence in President -elect Trump's cabinet team that he's picked.
I think he's going to take his time with us and not make the same mistakes that were possibly made in the first administration.
My comment or question is alluding to the previous caller about not trusting the media.
Last week, I tuned in the C -SPAN for the Secret Service hearing with acting director Ronald Rowe, watching it live.
All of a sudden, there was a technical blip, and you guys cut to the end of the hearing and censored out something.
Wait, wait.
If it was live, how did we cut to the end?
That's what I'm trying to find out.
Texas rep Pat Fallon...
But that's not possible when it's live.
Okay.
Let's, you know what, we'll look into that for you.
We will, it's on our website, c -span .org.
And James, you can watch...
Good morning, Mimi.
Can you hear me?
Okay.
Okay, sweetheart.
Listen, I want to thank C -SPAN for all that you all have tried to do by mentioning to the American people what is going on with this government.
I have absolutely no confidence In a convicted felon for fraud, like the other gentleman said a few minutes ago.
And I'm amazed that as many Americans would call and give confidence to somebody who is charged with sexual assault.
We heard his phone call where he said he'd like to grab women in their private parts.
And we heard him on the phone with the person in Georgia asking them to cheat for him.
No confidence at all in a man like that.
He's got no morals.
He's a disgrace to his country.
And the people in Europe and around the world are saying, what is going on?
My sister is in England.
And she says...
The people in England are amazed that the American people would put that gentleman back in, I call him a gentleman out of disrespect, to put him back in the White House when he was a disaster and a million Americans died while he was there.
And nobody says anything about it.
It's crazy.
Mimi, I stopped listening to C -SPAN because I couldn't take it anymore, but I'm glad that you guys are there, and I'm glad I'm back on listening to you again.
I appreciate C -SPAN.
All right, Oliver.
And this is Craig in Cleveland, Ohio, Republican.
Hi, Craig.
How you doing?
Good.
I love listening to all the liberal Democrats crying about their little president got ousted by Trump.
Make America great again.
Americans first.
Start deported.
Bye -bye.
And here's Gene in Virginia, Independent Line.
Hello, America.
How's my audio?
Am I good?
You're good.
Go ahead, Gene.
Thank you.
All right.
Good morning, America.
I just want everyone to just pause, you know, the little tactic the gentleman just used when he came on.
You know, we really have to get past that.
Okay, the election is over.
He got elected.
All right.
Some things, I voted Democrat.
I did vote for Kamala.
Even though I'm, you know, I'm an American.
Retired Army, retired military, I did 20 years.
I'm an American.
I'm what's best for the American people, for America.
I say, keep all those promises that you said you were going to do, which is why he got elected.
Do not start backpedaling.
Oh, you know what?
Maybe DACA...
No, Everything you said you were going to do, do.
So the American people are going to have...
Those that voted and supported him are going to have to see for themselves.
That's the only way.
I want to thank C -SPAN for allowing us an opportunity to talk.
Free speech.
We still have that in America.
But everything that you said you were going to do, deportation, getting the military, getting the military to deport these...
Hold up to everything you said.
Don't backpedal.
Do not backpedal.
Because the only way people are going to see, if you wanted to see...
I used to watch The Apprentice.
Okay, well, you know, yeah, you're fired.
But when you're talking about six times bankruptcy and you're talking about running this country, look at Atlantic City.
I always defer to Atlantic City.
The last thing I have to say is our judicial system.
If you can have 34 felonies and run and hold the highest office in the land, Got it,
Jean.
And let's talk to Roy in Woodstock, Georgia, a Republican.
And I was telling people before, when I was in Germany, to buy an American -made car made in the United States, you had to pay three times the amount what we paid.
I remember one American -made car, Chevrolet, was 90 ,000 DMARs.
And I could buy three Italian -made sports cars for the price of that one American car.
And we're talking about price increase because of tariffs?
The price increase of goods started when Biden went to war on the energy sector.
Truckers have to buy fuel.
Farm people have to buy fuel.
And the price went up.
And so these tariffs would just equalize the playing field.
Because right now, we're at a disadvantage.
And the goods that are supposed to be made in the United States, people are buying them from China, going to Walmart.
Everything is made in China.
We need to start making goods back here in this country.
And tariff is one way to do that.
We need to level the playing field with the rest of the world.
Alright, but some callers were saying he's not going to do the tariffs, that's just a bargaining chip.
You would welcome those tariffs?
Because I trust him.
I trust him to make the right decision on the right, let's say for aluminum and steel.
Our industry was going under.
All right, Roy.
Here's Scott in New York.
Democrat.
Hey, Scott.
Good morning, yes.
Good morning.
Go right ahead.
Scott, you talking into the phone?
Don't look at the TV.
Thank you for taking my call.
I just have one quick comment.
MAGA has put Chauncey Gardner in the driver's seat.
Everybody better buckle up.
Tony in Alabama, Independent Line.
You're next.
Hello, hey.
I'm Tony from Alabama.
Thank you for allowing me to speak on your show.
I can't vote.
But I have friends and families that are affected by tariffs.
In 1955, the same thing.
This playbook was played out and it was a part of the Great Depression.
So what I don't understand is no one's asking the real questions.
What is he going to do about the people that he's cutting off Social Security that are in nursing homes that will lose their place to live?
I really want to know.
All right, Tony.
And this is Tommy in Arkansas, Republican.
Hi, Tommy.
Yes.
You're talking about inflation here.
I've listened to 15 or 20 of the people that's called.
They've added nothing to inflation to help it.
And the thing is, they're causing more problems with the country getting along with each other than anything that I've ever heard.
Those people don't even need to be allowed to talk.
And the inflation?
I don't know what we're going to do exactly to help it, but I do know that it needs help.
And I'm for Trump making a good try at it, if that's possible.
Thank you.
And Robert, Lynchburg, Virginia, Independent Line.
Hi, Robert.
Good morning, Amy.
How you doing?
I'm a 81 -year -old African -American.
I'll look at what is happening to our country right now.
I think we got the best government that money can buy with the billionaires that Trump is putting in his cabinet.
And I have never seen anything like this in my life.
And if you believe what Trump is saying, I got an ocean I can tell you in Alaska.
Thank you.
Let's talk to Stephen in Concord, California.
Democrat.
Yes, thank you for taking my call.
I believe Trump is a danger to the whole country because he's putting billionaires in his office of cabinet.
And the people he chose for the FBI and the Defense Department and for national security are not qualified.
And the Republicans don't do their job of kicking them out and not confirming them.
That will have ruined the country.
It's a matter of national security.
Trump's trying to make our country not work, and it's absolutely terrible.
There's so many problems in this country involving burning of fossil fuels, all the different...
I can't hear you.
Are you talking to me, ma 'am?
No, I'm not.
Keep going, Stephen.
And Biden did all the good things he could.
He increased the...
Ship plants in this country from Taiwan.
He brought them all back here to this country.
And we have to defend Ukrainians.
I'm an uncle to a man who married a Ukrainian woman.
And we have to defend Ukraine because they're fighting for their freedom.
And like everything in the Middle East, it's happening because Syria has finally fallen because the Russians couldn't help the Syrians.
These things are all happening simultaneously because people with freedom are still fighting for their rights around the world.
And I believe I'm looking on the TV and it's not on, so I'm listening to what I'm saying, and I hope they realize that we have a pandemic that just happened, and the lines of communications, transportation, it's all shut down,
and that affected the whole transportation cost of food.
Eventually, that's going to be solved.
We have big problems in this country where the people come here because we have so much freedom.
But the freedom is responsibility.
And you have to believe in this country and vote.
Ten million people who voted last time didn't vote because we had a Democratic candidate, a woman chosen, and people just don't believe in a woman should be president.
And that's the sad truth.
And I don't know what to say except people have to believe that our country has strong leaders on Democratic Party.
All right, Stephen.
I wanted to update you.
The caller had asked about that Secret Service hearing and things on December 5th.
So it is here in its entirety on our website.
Final meeting of task force on Trump assassination attempts.
And you can see it there.
The part that the caller was talking about where things got heated between both two sides is labeled as a point of interest.
So it's right here.
If you look on this side, it says heated exchange between Representative Fallin and USS Acting Director Rowe.
It's starred.
So you can go straight to that point if you would like to see that.
So I hope the caller is still with us so that he can take a look at that.
Minneapolis.
And, you know, a lot of the Dems just definitely need some education on that.
See, I'm not rich, but I go to the ballot box.
I go to the ballot box to vote to keep the rich in power.
See, she hopes she understands that.
I guess she thinks it's okay for Americans to not be able to sell things abroad because of tariffs.
All right.
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Independent Line.
David, good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
Good.
Let's go back to inflation specifically.
The only way to tackle inflation, in my opinion, is to reduce government spending, which created it, and actually give more money back to the taxpayers.
In addition, also, reducing the cost for most of the cities by funding all the illegal aliens that are taking up hundreds, literally hundreds of billions of dollars in tax money.
So, those are the only things I...
All right, David.
And up next on Washington Journal, RAND Corporation senior policy researcher Daniel Gerstein discusses the mysterious drone sightings in New Jersey and New York and the security threats posed by unmanned aerial systems.
Later, Robert.
Sorry, Robin Maher, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center, discusses calls for President Biden to commute federal death sentences before President -elect Donald Trump assumes office.
We'll be right back.
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Welcome back to Washington Journal.
We are joined now by Daniel Gerstein.
He's a senior policy researcher at the Wren Corporation.
He was former acting DHS Under Secretary and Deputy Under Secretary of Science and Technology between 2011 and 2014.
Dan, welcome to the program.
Thanks.
In talking about these drones, I just want to do a quick update and then ask you about it.
But first, if you could tell us about your background in national security and your experience with drones specifically.
Okay, great.
Yeah, so I started out my professional career in the Army after graduating from the United States Military Academy.
I spent 30 years in uniform, deployed all around the world, commanded large units including a brigade, and have done a number of high -level jobs: speechwriter for the head strategist to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs,
You know, I've also had an opportunity to work as a senior civilian where I did counter weapons of mass destruction.
And I thought a lot about drones in countering weapons of mass destruction based on the potential for biological and chemical attacks and such.
And I was then asked to go to Homeland Security where I was the acting undersecretary.
Deputy Under Secretary.
Since being at RAND, I've actually had a number of opportunities to look at drone technologies.
My most recent report, which is, I think, interesting to those who read it, is on swarm technologies.
I was asked to look at what would happen if we had swarm technologies associated with homeland security.
So that would be bad actors trying to attack the homeland and not using a single drone, but using multiple.
And Dan, sorry, explain the swarm technology.
You said that it would be multiple drones.
How many drones?
How large are the drones are we talking about?
And why is that specifically more challenging than the one drone?
Well, it's interesting because you're asking the right questions, but we're actually studying a lot of this.
For example, the DARPA, which I know everybody's heard of, and then the Navy and the Army have looked...
Or are looking at swarm technologies.
Some of them are as large as 600, 1 ,000 members of the drone swarm.
Those would obviously be much smaller.
Think of them almost as expendable.
And what makes them intelligent swarms is that they are given a command, and then they execute that command, and they...
They have artificial intelligence within them, so they're able to change their flight path in mid -flight to avoid being shot down.
They communicate with each other.
They plan their flight paths as they're flying to targets.
So it's a whole new dynamic.
It's not just a single drone by a single operator.
And those have proven pretty...
Easy to shoot down, quite frankly.
We just had an attack in Ukraine by the Russian forces in which they used about 100 missiles and about 200 unmanned aerial systems, UASs or drones.
And most of the drones were shot down effectively.
So we're seeing that the nature of the use of drones in warfare is changing as well.
I want to go back to the situation happening over the skies of New Jersey and New York.
This is the USA Today.
It says White House says New Jersey drones not from foreign countries as lawmakers demand answers.
And Dan, I'm going to read you the joint statement between Homeland Security and the FBI about that specifically and then have you comment on it.
They said this:
It's a few things there.
They said that they are deploying personnel and technology.
Can you first talk about what kind of technology is there to understand
Yeah, another great question.
So, you know, the drone technology is emerging very rapidly.
We've been worried about this threat.
I was in government a decade ago when we were starting to really think about, you know, this drone threat because it was becoming more real.
The drones were becoming more effective.
And so when we talk about these countermeasures, You know, there are a number of different approaches that one has to take with drones.
The first is you have to be able to detect them.
And, you know, if you're flying a drone here in the United States, you're supposed to have it with a transponder so it is squawking a frequency and you're able to get the identification of that drone.
That would help to do the second thing, which is to identify.
And then the third is to mitigate the threat.
And then all that requires good equipment, as well as rules of engagement that allow you to do so in a safe...
uh, an effective manner, and so there's a lot that goes into it, so you can just imagine how much training you would need to have.
Now, you know, in the Department OF Defense they hold an annual conference, and at this last one in october, it's the Ausa Conference Association United States ARMY.
When I went to that conference, I couldn't believe.
Every single platform tank, an artillery piece, armored fighting vehicles, every one of them had a counter drone system.
We're good to go.
I think?
There are so many lucrative targets.
All this critical infrastructure we have, pipelines and electrical grids and transportation networks and hospitals and chemical facilities, and all of those,
we have to figure out what's the priority and how are we going to protect them.
You can imagine how expensive that is going to be.
And so, you know...
Well, Dan, sorry to interrupt, but I do want to ask about counter drone.
And how to take one down, because thehill .com has this headline, Trump calls for mystery drones to be shot down.
So the question a lot of members of the public are saying, why can't the DOD just shoot them down?
Okay, well, interesting.
But, you know, here in the homeland, we're not at war.
And we have civilian...
People walking the streets and they have an expectation of safety and and privacy, and so there are different kind of rules that govern this.
So how would we, how do we take down a drone?
Well, you know, if you have the electronic countermeasures, you can actually take control of the drone when it's in flight and you can cause it to land harmlessly, and that way it's not going to fall out of the sky.
You know, there are opportunities or times when, you know, let's say, we thought that there was a drone over a stadium and we were concerned that we could see that it was loaded with a very large payload and we thought that was explosives.
You know, you might actually then say, you know, we have to bring it down another way.
You know, and we're looking at things like lasers we're looking at, do you use say kinetic, shooting it out of the sky.
But I would say that is kind of your, your kind of Approach of last resort because of the damage it could do If it hit people.
You'd almost certainly have casualties and and likely deaths If it was a larger type of drone, so I you know there are ways, there are approaches, But we have to be very measured in doing this so as not to to cause more casualties.
And if you've got a question for Daniel Gerstein of the RAND Corporation about drones and the security threats that they may pose, you can start calling us now.
The lines are regional, so if you're in the Eastern or Central time zones, it's 202 -748 -8000.
If you are in the Mountain or Pacific time zones, you can call us on 202 -748 -8001.
You can also send a text at 202 -748 -8003.
Dan, the drones obviously are remote controlled by drone pilots.
What are the licensing or certification requirements for somebody to operate a drone?
Here in our country, the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration, has the responsibility for putting out the regulations.
What gets very complex about this is that depending on what type of user you are, you have different requirements.
You might have small drones.
Some are less than half a pound.
They're just very much hobbyists.
They don't have great distance and such.
All of them are supposed to have some degree of licensing associated with them.
There also, though, are those that may not have been licensed when they were bought early on because the FAA rules have changed.
But you get all the way up into, if you're flying this in a commercial approach, you know, you're using it for delivering packages or whatever it is.
Then there would be different requirements for those types of drone operators.
When you talk about military use of drones, those drone operators often are flying much larger systems, and they have very stringent requirements because of the nature of the work they're doing.
So it's not a one -size -fits -all approach to requiring licenses.
Even someone as young as 16, According to the FAA regulations, can get a drone license to be able to fly.
And those are not commercial at that point.
That would really be just the hobbyist type.
But, you know, they would be able to do that.
But they'd also have to pass a test.
They'd have to ensure that they followed the safety rules.
So, again, no free lunch here.
There are requirements that they would have to meet.
And back to the threat to military installations, the compromised version of the fiscal 2025 NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act,
includes a provision that says that the Department of Defense has to create a counter -drone strategy.
Dan, is there no counter -drone strategy currently for the Defense Department?
But we've been dealing with drones for a long time, Dan.
I mean, how is this not already strategy?
The Department of Defense over the last two or three years has been working on something called the replicator program and its core the replicator program is trying to bring smaller but also kind of medium -sized drones that can be used very effectively on the battlefield and think of them as one -way trips they're not intended to come back they're intended to be used as munitions and and to you know attack and things like that but it's it's trying to get more drones into the force.
Yeah, so a couple things.
I would start out by saying we may have seen the death.
Of large drones, and I say that because it turns out large drones that fly at relatively slow speeds, certainly under 100 miles an hour, are very vulnerable to air defenses, and so what you're seeing is more about using smaller drones with very capable mission packages going after targets very effectively.
You know, we've also seen how, For example, Ukraine, which doesn't even have a real navy, was able to essentially destroy about 50 % of the Russian Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol and also caused the other 50 % to have to leave that region because otherwise they would have been destroyed as well.
So here you have a country with no navy that has destroyed You know, obviously, a country with a very, very large Navy.
So that's, I think, very interesting.
You know, the idea of not just aerial drones, but in Ukraine, they've used naval drones very effectively.
So I think that's something else we're seeing, that there's a reason why these kinds of autonomous systems or unmanned systems can be very useful.
Alright, there's a lot of people that want to talk to you, so let me start with Phil in Brooklyn, New York.
Phil, go ahead.
You're on with Dan Gerstein.
Good morning.
I understand what you're saying about shooting those drones down and debris falling down, hurting pedestrians, but these drones could be spreading some type of chemical during welfare into the air and into the water.
So, I mean, maybe a few casualties from falling debris.
Yeah, look, I agree.
This is all based on a risk assessment.
And you have to think about what are the options and come up with the least risky option.
So if we had reason to believe That, for example, a stadium was about to be attacked with a chemical weapon deployed from a drone,
then I think we would have to look at whether or not it was worth taking that risk.
I don't want to speak for operational commanders and law enforcement, but I could see them saying, we have to get that out of the sky.
And that would cause that sort of engagement.
Jeremy is in Madison, Wisconsin.
Hi, Jeremy.
Hi.
Thank you for C -SPAN.
Sir, thank you very much.
Thank you for your clarity and your clear use of language here.
Just a couple of things.
I'm never going to forget when I was talking to my logic professor, my probabilistic causation professor more than two decades ago about him counting cards in Vegas, Area 51.
Now if you identify an unidentified flying object, unidentified flying object has been identified as an unidentified flying object.
But here in Madison, I'm so appreciative of how you were talking about how you could use technology to land such a thing very harmlessly, safely.
And sometimes here in Madison, like just above the Capitol, we see the weirdest things just above that airspace, just right above it.
And simple things like that.
I mean, I wouldn't take that necessarily as a form of a threat.
If I see countless planes or, like, small little drones right above our Capitol, you know, maybe if I see it, I'm looking and I'm looking at pedestrians or looking at people around the Capitol and I'm looking, you know, right above me.
At some points, I mean, if technology can just land such a thing harmlessly.
Why would we trade hyperbole here?
And I appreciate your clarity here.
Okay, Jeremy.
Well, again, I don't think there's a one -size -fits -all.
I think it's a risk assessment.
You have to look at what's happening.
I'll just say that after, you know, the amount of time I've got in government in a range of military operations, from combat to counterterrorism to peace operations to homeland security, You know, I think about all the risks,
and when I see things flying above places where I have a question about, you know, shouldn't there be a no -fly zone, I get very concerned.
And, you know, it may not, to the average person, it may not seem this way, but, you know, there is a whole group of organizations and people that respond when there's, say,
something like the Super Bowl, there are specialized rules put in place.
Uh, and specialized ways in which we protect those kinds of events, and so it's all based on risk.
You cannot defend everything, we know that, and so what we're trying to do is identify those things that are most at risk, and if there is a, a warning, if we have some, some intelligence that says a particular facility is at risk, we'll certainly turn toward that.
I will say, just as an aside on these drones, I mean what we used to say in the military was, First reports are always wrong.
And so now we've heard a lot about drones, and then all of a sudden we're finding that a lot of these may actually be just small manned aircraft.
And so I don't think that we've done a very good job in talking to the American people, to the state and local representatives about what we know about this,
what is known about this.
So I think clarity for that So Dan, aside from lack of communication, how do you think the federal and state and local officials have been handling the situation over New York and New Jersey?
It was a House hearing on drones.
And the state representatives, of course, were grilling the federal authorities.
There was one from Department of Justice, one from the FBI, and one from Customs and Border Protection.
And I think there was pretty clear recognition that the state and local uh really need help.
They need help with equipment, they need help with intelligence and knowledge about these threats uh, and they, they understand that they need training and so uh, there's a lot of work to be done in this space and uh, I don't think you know.
To take this back to, How did we do in New Jersey and around the country where we've had these potential drone sightings?
I don't think we've had the clarity in our discussions that we needed to have.
And that created more ambiguity and fear among the people.
And that hearing that you referenced from the House is on our website in its entirety at C -SPAN .org if anybody would like to take a look at that.
Johnny in Dearborn, Michigan.
You're on with Dan Gerstein.
Hello.
I've seen online people say maybe it's a government agency or something and looking for like a sensitive item that might be loose out there like a rogue chemical weapon or something of that nature.
What do you think?
Well, you know, you're asking me to speculate.
Just having served a lot in the government, I would say that at this point, I don't think the government would be very interested in perpetrating such a ruse.
This has become a very emotional subject for many who are watching what they think are drones nightly.
And so I don't necessarily see that.
I don't think the government would keep that going.
Let's talk to Dale in Chardon, Ohio.
Yeah, how was your morning?
Good.
Fine, thank you.
Good.
As far as the drones being able to fly all over, I know in Ohio, I'm not sure about the whole country, but to fly a remote control plane, helicopter,
you actually have to be a licensed and you have to be a member of a group to fly that aircraft.
out of an area you just can't go fly it in your backyard and they need to apply something like that to the drones it would be simple in my opinion and the other part about all these drones being spot on the east coast they say it's not the government they say it's not the police officer so in my opinion you got a too bad you either got local people doing it and they're kind of doing it as a joke now because there's getting so much publicity about it
Well, I mean, I addressed this partially in my opening remarks, but I would say that These operators are required to be licensed.
FAA requires that, even for the smaller ones.
You know, you're supposed to register, you're supposed to take courses.
And so I think they would agree with you.
I'm not saying that everybody always does that.
Let's see, you know, I forgot, what was the second one again, very quickly?
About if they were manned aircraft, wouldn't the, I guess the FAA or the airports would have a record of that?
and and so they would because all those aircraft must have transponders uh the size of that aircraft would require them so that is knowable and i think that what you're starting to see is that as they're unpacking this they're realizing that there are a lot of manned aircraft that are flying in these air spaces and they're being confused for
And this is Judy in Phoenix, Arizona.
Hi Judy.
I know the thought occurred to me when these drones first started, were first put out on the market and stuff, were private citizens.
Good.
Oh, this will be kind of fun.
Let's play with this.
The first thought occurred to me is, I don't think that's a good idea for private citizens to have this as a toy to play with.
So I wish the government would put a ban on any private citizens being able to get their hands on those objects so that at some point maybe down the road once this they're pretty much weeded out of private hands that if these this situation comes comes up again And it's got to be some kind of government or something nefarious or something.
But I don't think private citizens should be able to operate these drones.
Alright, Judy.
Dan, what do you think about drones being banned for personal use?
So, you know, I think the nature of technology is that all technologies are dual use and at some time or another have been used for purposes other than what they were intended, and even in some cases in dangerous manners.
But like, if I were to say, Judy, what do you think about commercial applications such as, you know, use of drone technology to do relief operations after disasters?
You know, here you would have state and local governments, you might have private citizens.
You know, what if we were to say scientific research?
We're looking at putting drones into hurricanes so that as they're coming, We would be able to get a kind of a real -time sensing, not just flying the hurricane hunters in for a period of time and then they leave,
but actually being able to track that.
What about when the Ebola occurred in West Africa, they were using drone technology run by civilians to take samples that were...
And so, you know, think about...
The good that comes out of the use of these technologies, the drone technologies, but also the other technologies where we have seen misuses.
I do think there are real reasons why having these technologies can benefit society.
It's how they're used.
It's not the technology itself that is inherently good or bad.
I think we just have to be cognizant of that, be cautious about that.
I want to show you the proposed drone legislation and get your comments on it, Dan.
This is the Counter UAS Authority Security Safety and Reauthorization Act coming out of the House.
It would have these provisions.
Expand authority to protect airports, power plants, oil refineries, chemical facilities, and higher risk prisoner transports.
Allow state and local law enforcement to use federally approved counter drone technologies.
So a couple things.
I think that legislation is actually not necessarily all new.
It's about a reauthorization.
So it's already in place and what they want to do is both reauthorize it, so allow it to continue to operate, and they want to expand it.
Some, they want to help out the state and local authorities, and so this isn't sort of this brand new revolution, but rather, you know, just kind of continuing to try to push down understandings and then uh, proliferate it to others, and so from that standpoint uh, that's if you listen to the representatives who are at the testimony, that's what they were calling for they.
They asked for help.
Darlene in Florida, good morning.
Darlene, yes.
Yes, I have a question to comment.
First of all, it appears that these drones are fairly large, and since there's, quote, so many right at the moment, why don't these companies, if they're owned by companies,
why don't they just notify the government, whether it be the mayor of the town or the governor or even Washington, let them know, hey, it's us.
And we're flying around.
This is why we're flying around.
I mean, I don't understand why they just don't notify.
That's all.
Who, Darlene, the owner of the drone, the operator of the drone, like the drone pilot?
Yes.
Okay.
Because it seems like the drones are really large.
So I'm sure that's, well, I wouldn't, I don't say I'm sure, but probably that might be by a company.
Alright.
Dan?
So if they are that large, Transponder.
They haven't, you know, the reports that I've seen have not really talked about whether or not they're getting hits off of transponders.
So that would be the electronic signature.
So it's, this is where I said first reports are always wrong.
It's not really clear what is happening and we don't have enough information being put out on it that sort of says, you know, these are the numbers of legitimate Here's Eddie in Peoria,
Illinois.
Good morning, Eddie.
Good morning.
My question is, technology is amazing.
And my question is, these unmanned planes and these drones, are they The
Chinese spy balloon, Dan.
Again, with the Chinese balloon, they had their story and said it was a weather balloon and such, and we had our feeling about what we were seeing.
But these balloons are difficult to track as they fly across international spaces.
This actually occurs more frequently than one would think, but it doesn't always look like it did when that was occurring.
That looked like it was almost going along a planned route or such, and it hit a number of, what I would say, interesting areas, if you had an intelligence question.
Some of it is just, again, you don't want to shoot things down.
We were interested and also understand, I say we, the United States was interested in understanding, you know, what this balloon was doing and we didn't want to shoot it down and then unpredictably have it land somewhere and perhaps hurt people or destroy property.
And so that was the calculus that was made.
And, you know, there was a lot, obviously a lot of heat about some of the decisions associated with that.
Yeah, I was just wondering, I'm not too familiar with the New Jersey drones, but like when they had the UFOs over Phoenix,
I'm just wondering why local TV stations don't send their helicopters to try to track it down, do some investigating?
um knowing a little bit about some of these issues associated with these uh unidentified flying objects and they've now changed the name uh but uh what what's happened is you know a lot of the the claims that have been made by a lot of them have been military pilots too who have said they have seen anomalous ...behaviors by aircraft,
and they're unable to identify the aircraft.
Some of them are moving so rapidly.
They literally look like they're moving from one side of the cockpit to the other side in less than a snap of a finger.
And so what you're really seeing is that a lot of those have turned out to be...
uh, explained anomalies.
They've been able to say yeah, that had to do with uh, some sort of um you know, i'll call it a visual aura that may have occurred within cockpits and such.
Now I know the pilots believe that I, or believe that something happened.
We're still sorting through some of that as well, but they're of the 200 or so that they were working on.
There were still some that remained anomalous and they couldn't explain, but others they thought they had explained away.
Respond to radio communications, then they not only have the authority, they have a responsibility to send the planes up, their helicopters up,
and find out what that is and take it down if necessary.
And far as our government's saying they do not know what these are, look, we have satellites up there that can read my name on my mailbox.
And they tell us that they do not know what these are?
That's baloney.
What do you say about that?
Well, I mean, to your first point about, you know, they should be able to go up and shoot them down.
Let me just say that, you know, some of this seems counter.
But for example, in the hearing the other day, they talked about 20 ,000 encounters across the southern border of unmanned aerial systems.
And the congressman asked the question, if there were 20 ,000, why were only 68 brought down?
And the answer was because most of the rest of them were on Mexican territory.
And according to international law, you are not allowed to shoot into another nation's territory or even We're good to go.
You know, those federal posts live within communities.
Local authorities have some degree of control.
Then states have states' rights.
And so, you know, you have to work through all those questions.
And that's, I think, what you're seeing.
And there's a lot of uncertainty and there's still not a lot of what I would like to see is very clear speaking on the issue.
But I think we're coming to terms with yes, there are some unmanned aerial systems out there but there are also a lot of these smaller manned aircraft and we need to do a better job communicating this because I think it's caused a lot of emotion and a lot of concern and angst within the communities within the states where this has occurred.
So I definitely am concerned about it.
I'll just say one footnote, too.
You know, there have been unexplained drone activities, like in the United Kingdom, flying over three or four of our bases out there.
Lakenheath, Mendenhall, Fairford.
So, you know, there is concern about that, too.
Those have happened November 20th through the 26th.
Jerry Sewell, New Jersey.
You're next, Jerry.
Yes, good morning.
Listen, the one concern I have, and I still don't get why we can't ban all drones until we know exactly what's going on here.
Because i'm going to tell you something, my concern i'm a registered Democrat and my concern is that I think the government is going to be exposed in the next four years.
The government, the FBI, I think they know it, that they're going to be exposed for a lot of what they've been doing and I think that i'm worried about them because they're flying these things over Trump's minister home And my concern is that they're pre - whatever they're doing to take our own president out.
He's been attempted assassination twice.
I don't trust these things.
I don't trust the government.
And because they're not telling us anything, I trust them even less.
So why aren't we banning these things until we really get to the bottom of everything?
And I'm talking about what's going to be exposed with the FBI and all.
You could see it coming because they're scared to death to appoint his people, so something's going on.
So, yeah, we need to ban them.
I don't think there's any question about that.
And get this straightened out, and then they'll be allowed to go back up.
And then, of course, with restrictions.
Thank you.
And then drones flying over or near President -elect Trump's properties, wouldn't that be a Secret Service concern, Dan?
It would indeed and you know the Secret Service actually when I was in government the Secret Service actually had a counter drone program so I won't say any more about that for obvious reasons but they're very concerned about that threat they think about it a lot and you know they have to protect every president and all you know high -value if you will potential targets so I expect that they will continue to do that they're a very professional organization.
We take one more call.
This is Ty in South Carolina.
Good morning, Ty.
Good morning.
This is, I think, the military -industrial complex.
And I want to explain it to you this way, and it's very simple.
If you look at all the stuff that America ends up creating, then you get other countries to create something to combat it.
For example, we started this missile defense.
And then it caused other countries to go with hypersonic missiles to outwit it.
So we wasted all that money.
And with drones, we started with the drones.
Look at Ukraine now.
We use them in Afghanistan.
Now they're everywhere.
Now they're a threat to America itself.
Any citizen, you got all these people over here from other countries.
Alright, Ty,
let's get an answer.
Go ahead, Dan.
Well, you know, I'll just go back to something I said before, and that is, look, there are a lot of legitimate purposes and a lot of very good outcomes from having drone technology.
And, you know, we need to think about those and how we can put in place the limitations and guardrails to ensure that the scenario the gentleman talked about doesn't occur.
And that's really where our focus needs to be.
So those limits need to be figured out.
The Federal Aviation Administration's FAA needs to have a serious role in this, as do federal, state, local law enforcement need to weigh in and make sure that we're doing things that are appropriate.
But at the end of the day, all technologies are dual use, and every technology has at some point been misused.
So it's really about the use case.
All right, Daniel Gerstein, RAND Corporation Senior Policy Researcher.
You can find his work at rand .org.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
Still ahead on The Washington Journal, Robin Maher, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center, discusses calls for President Biden to commute federal death sentences before President -elect Donald Trump assumes office.
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James, you're on Open Forum in Rome, Georgia, Independent Line.
Good morning.
Good morning.
What I'd like to talk about is, you know, the history of the United States, so we can bring this back to what's going on.
People come on here talking about they don't want no socialism and this and all that.
But when those people come from Cuba, Germany, Russia, you know what they bring?
Italy.
They bring their communism, their fascism.
That's what they bring to the United States.
Black people, we've suffered now.
What are these people going to go through?
These Hispanics are talking about deportation of these people.
They voted for it.
The Hispanic men voted for this.
Give it to them.
Democrats, black people, leave Robert F. Kennedy alone.
We need to find out.
What's been going on with these scientists and black people, these experiments that they have been making on them.
He should have got rid of James.
He should have got rid of rape and put somebody else in there.
I constantly called and asked them to do that so they could find out what was actually going on.
And now he runs like a coward.
Look, stop coming over here talking about socialism.
Black people, we've been in slavery.
The Indians have been in genocide.
All right, James, got it.
Kathleen in Satellite Beach, Florida.
Democrat, good morning.
Good morning.
I was calling about the Senate and the process of choosing the secretaries.
Yes.
Confirmation hearings?
Yes.
I heard that Elon Musk was going to pay a million dollars out for every person they're trying to confirm.
And if any of the senators vote against the confirmation, he'll use that million dollars to primary them in their next election.
So what I was hoping that the Senate does is as a group, all 100 of them Pledge together to confirm or not confirm these people, because a lot of them are just unfit for office.
And then that way, Musk can't go after an individual senator when it's time for reelection.
I just hope that the Senate really gets strong, works together, because they're our last hope to stop some of these horrible people that Trump is trying to confirm.
And Kathleen, here is an article about what you were talking about from Fortune magazine.
It says, Elon Musk warns Republicans standing in Trump's way that he will fund primary challenges to them.
It says that a week after Donald Trump's victory, Musk said his political action committee would play a significant role in primaries.
It says the billionaire responded to a report that he might fund challengers to GOP House
Yes, hi.
I want to respond to that first caller, or the caller in the first hour on the Hollywood Access tape about President Trump, what he said.
Yeah.
He said they just let you.
Yes.
Trials were scams though.
So he is not a 34 count sexual criminal and a sexual assault person.
He denied all of that so he that he is denied that and then also on the I watched that Blinken hearing on C -SPAN and I saw the same thing that the other guy saw but his was a different hearing but The Republicans would,
like, get cut out.
The tape would, like, stop and pause really fast, like seconds.
And that was very interesting.
So, Kathy, I just want to say that that might be an issue with your cable, with your TV, but you can always go back online at cspan .org.
You can look for that hearing.
The full hearing is there online for you.
And there's also the points of interest that you can find certain points.
Very easily so you don't have to go through the whole thing if you don't want to.
Mike, Rockford, Illinois, Independent Line.
As in, could we be being deceived with these drones for new legislation to police?
As you read off the article, the new legislation they want to do with all different stuff now.
Also, when Hunter was given the pass a couple days ago to get it out on the news, all of a sudden we see the assassination of a bigwig, and now everybody wants to police?
Mike, I don't know what you mean by spice up the segments.
I think they're already spicy.
But I'm glad you brought up the Bill of Rights.
Because you're right, that is tomorrow, the anniversary, and we are having a segment on that for Bill of Rights Day tomorrow.
So make sure you watch that.
This is Lori in Hamburg, Pennsylvania.
Democrat.
Hi, Lori.
Hi, I'm just going to, I'd like to let Democrats know not to back down right now.
Stand up and try to broaden our coalition because we're stuck in this 50 -50.
And that's why we have such a populist movement right now.
And that's why Trump has taken great advantage of that.
Let me ask you, Lori, what do you think, who else would you include in that coalition?
How would you expand the coalition?
By talking to each other, like with drones, with the drones, with immigration.
We need our representatives working on these issues that affect us.
People are panicking over these drones because they...
A lot of even Democrats I heard yelling about because I think they think they have to act like that now or they'll be accused of not caring about these things in the air.
But we need our representatives to work on our challenges.
Like both party systems have broken down.
I think this is the longest period in history that we've had a 50 -50 pretty much split.
Our country.
And it's not good for us.
By people not believing in their government, they're panicking.
I'm not worried about the drones.
I figured if there was something dangerous going on, my government would let me know.
They would let me know.
Because, I mean, we've been safe since 9 -11.
Apparently the FBI, the institutions, are doing their job.
What bothers me a lot, also, is for a long time now, there's been gerrymandering, there's been primary, and put that that way.
They have scorecards.
You know, if they don't score well, if they don't vote the way that these money donors want them to, they send primary people in.
And it's a populist movement, and it's all...
I'm more worried about getting an immigration policy, getting a fair tax policy, having representatives that are...
So, Lori, you did mention those drones, and I wanted to just update people from the Associated Press.
What do we know about the mysterious drones reported flying over New Jersey?
It says...
Thank you.
It says this, dozens of witnesses have reported seeing drones in New Jersey starting in November.
At first, the drones were spotted flying along the scenic Raritan River, a waterway.
And it says, but soon sightings were reported statewide, including near the Picatinny Arsenal, a U .S. military research and manufacturing facility, and over President -elect on a golf course in Bedminster.
You can read the rest of that article
Gordon, Kansas City, Kansas.
Republican.
Good morning.
Morning, Mimi.
Thank you for taking my call.
I wanted to talk to the guy from the Rand Corporation so bad because back in 2008 when I was still working as a carpenter general foreman, they hired me and five other carpenters and we went to the,
it was a secret type place that you had to...
You didn't do any work?
Guy called in about the military industrial complex.
That is the military industrial complex.
And they're the ones that charge $7 for a toilet seat or whatever, a roll of toilet paper or whatever.
The RAND Corporation has millions and probably billions of dollars worth of contracts with our government.
And as far as the drones, I wouldn't doubt that FBI and DHS and all of them don't know what it is.
Because they're stupid and they don't have anybody coming to work.
Thank you.
Slavery, Jim Crowism, black people.
The problems of today are not the problems of yesterday and 200 years ago.
That's why, in many ways, we are so far behind because we are focused on the wrong issues.
Better look at this AI.
Better look at these cuts that this, uh, Musk and his friend are gonna make.
The job changes, the education.
It just gets to me that they're so hung up.
So many of our black people are hung up on this slavery issue.
Thank you.
And just to update you on some news from Axios, former Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi has been hospitalized.
She sustained a serious injury to her hip.
John in Brooklyn, New York.
Democrat.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
I want to make three points.
I want to let everybody know.
First, I wonder, how could it be such a close election?
Trump won by one, one and a half points.
And no recall.
I mean, it's no harm in recalling.
The election where he won by one point, one and a half points.
That's one of my points I want to make.
The next one I want to make is don't worry about Trump and that crazy stuff he's talking with these people that don't know what they're doing.
We have an answer.
We can cut him off in the mid -election.
So focus on what he's doing, wait till the mid -election, and then we can cut him off.
So don't worry.
Let him go ahead and put all those people in there that don't know what he's talking about.
He don't know what they're talking about.
And we'll get him in the mid -election.
Number three, give me a minute.
With these, the guy that just said about slavery, we're still worrying about it.
Slavery's still in effect in America, but it's in a different way.
Out of her suspension of disbelief when she talked about Donald Trump saying they let me.
The suspension of disbelief, it's a comedic device that allows the listener to suspend logic and common sense.
She was telling the story in the incorrect order.
If she listened to the Billy Bush tape, Donald Trump actually said I see a beautiful woman.
I just go into a rut.
I grab her by the hair.
I drag her into my cave.
I have my way with her.
And she loves it.
That's not a real thing.
And as far as the drones go, drones have...
I think America's been hypersensitized to drones because drones have been around for 175 years, mostly in war.
Especially over in Afghanistan, I mean, we have drones blowing up weddings and buildings with one person in them, cars just driving around.
But now when the drones are in the white neighborhood, they see death and destruction.
Drones have been around in black neighborhoods forever.
I tell you, you know, solve the drone problem, call George Clinton on the mothership.
He'll take care of it.
Mimi, I got one bone to pick with you.
It's just not fair that you look great in everything.
Gobble, gobble.
Bye -bye.
And here's Charles in Fort Lee, New Jersey, Independent Line.
Good morning, Charles.
The problem with the drones is indicative of the people's response that the government, the democratic government, doesn't seem to respond to things that the people feel is important.
You can go into what happened with the train derailment, go look at the hurricanes.
The democrat authorities in this country don't seem to be responsive.
Whereas Republicans do seem to be responsive.
Trump shows up.
And so when you have thousands of people, it seems, concerned with drones and the Democrats who are in charge of the government seem to be unresponsive.
It's indicative of why the Democrats lost.
Democrats have not learned a lesson.
You have to listen to the people.
Republicans seem to listen to the people.
That's my concern.
That's my statement.
And I think people should really understand that Republicans seem to be more responsive to the problems that Americans seem to be expressing.
Groceries and oil and so on.
But in this case, it's the drones.
No response from the government after a month and a half, other than everything's okay when they have no idea what the hell is even going on.
Thank you very much.
All right, Charles.
And here is Ava in Columbia, Mississippi.
Republican.
Hi, Ava.
Good morning.
Thank you.
The person that called in about your money for the parties and the legislature, I don't have comment on that part of it.
I just want to say I did not hear one Democrat complain.
When George Soros was about buying, and he's from some other country, buying DAs and judges around the country against Republicans, not one time did they voice.
That shows that they're hypocrites.
They're two -faced.
So watch out if you meet one in the hallway.
They're two -faced.
You can't tell which way they're going.
And happy Christmas to everybody.
This is also some news for you from the New York Times.
South Korea's president has been impeached over the martial law crisis.
It says that celebrations broke out in Seoul after lawmakers voted to impeach President Yoon Suk -yool.
He vowed to fight removal in the country's constitutional court.
Joe, Tampa, Florida.
Democrat.
Hi, Joe.
Hey, good morning, everyone.
I just wanted to talk about the move to bring back government workers.
People have been really comfortable working from home, and I think that is probably going to lead to a lot of people resigning.
You're not going to have enough people to actually do the work.
The same move is happening in corporate America, but I don't think it's a good move because I think after COVID, people realize that they can actually work better from home with less distractions.
So yeah, just be on the lookout for less people working and possibly resigning from office.
That's all I have to say.
Thank you.
And here's Tim in Minnesota, Republican.
Hi, Tim.
Hello, how are you?
Doing great.
I just think it's great that, you know, somebody like me can call in and speak out on some of these national issues.
So there's just so many of them.
You know, on Elon Musk and his money, you know, he's just bringing something that's happening in the background.
To the foreground.
If people think he's one of the first guys to support politicians with money and influence,
you're just sadly mistaken.
It's happening all the time.
On the election, I'm from Minnesota.
It's such a blue state.
I've voted for Democrats before, and the Democratic Party shot itself in the head.
You know, Biden committed to being a one -term president.
He did his job.
He beat Trump.
He was supposed to step aside.
Dean Phillips from Minnesota was the only guy publicly that said, you know, the guy's, he ran against him, and he lost.
What did you think of Dean Phillips since you're from Minnesota?
Would you have voted for him?
Had he been the nominee?
I probably would have.
There was no alternative.
There wasn't a good alternative to Trump, in my opinion.
Partly because Kamala Harris wasn't elected.
There was no debate on Kamala.
She wasn't the best option.
All right.
Here's James in Aiken, South Carolina.
Democrat, good morning.
So all the time we've got, and we are having our next segment on with Robin Maher.
She is executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center.
She'll discuss calls for President Biden to commute federal death sentences before President -elect Donald Trump assumes office.
We'll be right back.
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Joining us to talk about the death penalty in the U .S. is Robin Marr.
I've been pronouncing it wrong this whole day.
She's the executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center.
Robin, welcome.
Hi, Mimi.
It's great to be back.
So tell us about the Death Penalty Information Center and how you're funded.
Yes, thank you.
We are a national nonprofit organization.
We provide information, data, and analysis to the media, to lawmakers, and to the public about how the death penalty is used in the United States.
We're not an advocacy organization.
We are an information center.
So does that mean you do not take a position on the death penalty?
No, we don't have policy.
We're not seeking abolition, but we do...
Excuse me.
I have a small cold.
Sorry about that.
We do think it's important for people to understand all the facts when they're talking about how the death penalty is used in the United States.
Let's talk about some of those facts because there have been calls for President Biden to commute the federal death sentences before he leaves office.
How many individuals are there on federal death row?
Right.
There are 40 men who currently have an active death sentence on the federal row.
So what does that mean, the federal row?
And is there a state?
Death penalty and what's the difference?
Yeah, that's one of the challenges about talking about the death penalty.
Every state makes a choice about whether it will use the death penalty.
Right now, there are 27 states that have the option of using the death penalty.
The federal government also has a separate system, as does the military.
So there are really three different kinds of systems.
And of course, among the states, there are many differences about how they choose to use the death penalty or not.
Well, first let me ask you about what happens when a death sentence is commuted.
Does that immediately become life without parole, or what actually happens?
Right.
Well, this is a point of confusion.
When we talk about the power that President Biden has, his clemency power, which is constitutionally granted, really is an umbrella term for a lot of things that he could do.
For example, for his son Hunter, that was a pardon.
That was a very different kind of clemency grant.
What we're only talking about for these 40 men on the federal row is a change of their sentence from a death sentence to life without the possibility of parole.
That's really the only option and that's what would happen if President Biden decides to go that route.
And can these decisions ever be reversed?
Can that person be...
You know, I've been asked that question.
That's never happened.
There's no precedent for that happening, and the law doesn't permit that from happening, doesn't permit that to happen.
But, you know, I can't say President Trump, being the kind of person he is, I don't know what he might do.
I think that we can say with some certainty that even President Trump respects the power of commutation and clemency, and I think he would probably leave it alone.
And what are the factors going into that kind of a decision?
Why would President Biden commute those sentences?
Well, there's lots of good reasons.
First of all, this is an enormous coalition of people who are attempting to persuade President Biden.
Organizations, racial justice organizations and civil rights organizations.
Many individuals, religious organizations and faith leaders like Pope Francis who has been very vocally persuading, trying to persuade President Biden.
But we also have some unusual voices like a number of corrections officials.
People who presided over executions.
We have elected members of Congress.
We have elected prosecutors, state officials, and probably most importantly, we have family members, people who've lost loved ones to violence, some to the very people who are on the federal death row now.
All of these people are calling on President Biden to commute these sentences because they see longstanding systemic problems with the federal death penalty, the way that it has been used.
Well, talk about some of those problems.
Sure.
Well, probably the most important is that it has been used in an arbitrary and racially discriminatory way.
This is an issue that has been studied repeatedly.
It's well documented.
Even DOJ officials have acknowledged these very serious concerns over the years.
So we see that predominantly the federal death penalty has been used against people of color.
We're good to go.
I think?
We're good to go.
And if you would like to join our conversation with Robin Marr, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center, if you've got a question about the death penalty or a comment, you can call our lines.
Here's how they're split up.
If you support the death penalty, you can call us on 202 -748 -8000.
If you're opposed to the death penalty, it's 202 -748 -8001.
And if you're unsure, it is 202 -748 -8002.
Robin, I just want to show Gallup statistics on the question, are you in favor of the death penalty for a person convicted of murder?
And here's what it looks like.
So currently it's at 53 % in favor, 44 % opposed, and 2 % at no opinion.
The trend, though, is interesting.
The not in favor or opposed to the death penalty seems to be...
Oh, lots of things.
Yeah, the long -term trend has been pretty significant.
Back from a time when almost 80 % of the population supported use of the death penalty, we're now down to barely a majority of people, 53%.
And when you dig down into those numbers even further, you find that there are some really incredible generational differences.
For example, young adults now between the ages of 18 and 43, a majority of those young adults oppose the death penalty.
So we can see as we go forward, we're going to see, I think, growing disapproval of the death penalty.
But one thing that has been, I think, a real influencer on opinion has been the specter of innocent people on death row.
This year has been a particularly illustrative year.
We've seen several high -profile cases of people.
We're good to go.
I think?
So there have been a number of very high -profile cases, which I think really shook the confidence of the American public about how accurately the death penalty can select those who are worthy of the death sentence.
And this Gallup poll backs up what you said about a generational shift.
It says drop in death penalty support led by younger generations, less than half.
Now, President Biden ran for president opposing the death penalty, but he has yet, during his term thus far, and it's coming to a close, commuted a federal death sentence.
How often have presidents used this power for the death penalty?
Well, we have seen examples of presidents using this in the past.
There are usually a number of individuals.
It's rare.
There are not many people on the federal death row.
We saw two cases under President Biden who received relief.
One was on the military row, one was on the federal death row.
You know, the precedent for mass grants of clemency is pretty strong.
We have a number of state governors who have made decisions to clear all the people on their death rows.
Let's talk to callers, and we'll start with Nathaniel in Irvington, New Jersey.
Clear them in what way?
Nathaniel, go ahead.
Hello.
Hi, how you guys doing?
Good morning.
First of all, I just want to thank Ms. Roberts for the great work that she's doing.
As a minority in this country, we do feel a sentiment that the death penalty We're good to go.
I think?
Oh, thank you so much.
I appreciate the comments.
Yeah, this is a really important subject.
Americans have been used to the death penalty, dealing with the death penalty in their lives for many decades.
We've really had it since colonial days.
But what we're seeing in the past few decades is that most Americans are turning away from the death penalty.
They've really lost confidence, both in its accuracy, but are also pretty concerned about the racist effect that they see in so many cases, and also the tremendous cost.
You know, death penalty cases are the most expensive of all criminal cases.
In the federal system, there was a study done in 2010 that documented that seeking a federal death sentence costs eight times more than seeking another kind of sentence, including life without the possibility of parole.
So for lots of reasons, I think taxpayers are looking at this issue and deciding this is not something...
Let's talk to Bruce in Laurel, Maryland.
Bruce, you oppose the death penalty.
Yeah.
Good morning.
She mentioned that the death penalty, all the people on the death row are men.
Now, the bias against men compared to blacks is much higher.
They even use it in court.
You know, they say, well, should a black...
Thank you very much.
Right now there are about 50 women on state death rows throughout the country.
You may remember that during the Trump administration, one woman on the federal death row was executed, Lisa Montgomery.
If you could talk about the methods of execution being employed and how that has evolved over time.
Right.
Well, that has been very interesting to watch.
The most common method is still lethal injection.
That's the method that most of the states still use and the federal government used during the Trump administration executions.
In recent years, some of the drugs that were typically used in lethal injections have become more difficult to secure.
They've also gotten a lot more expensive.
We know that in Utah, for example, a Utah official spent $200 ,000 to secure just three doses of pentobarbital for a recent execution.
So some of the states have looked to other methods.
Alabama is probably the most notable example.
Sorry, why was the electric chair phased out?
Well, chiefly because people objected to what they were seeing.
There were some really horrible examples of people who were executed in an electric chair.
Some of them were set on fire.
These were really graphic, awful displays.
People reported, witnesses reported smelling flesh burning during the execution.
This didn't really sit well with the American public.
People didn't think that was something we should be doing as a modern, evolved society.
So lethal injection was turned to as a way of using a very peaceful, clinically appropriate way of executing people.
Of course, we saw that fall apart a few years ago when states began experimenting with different drugs, and we saw a number of botched executions.
We're good to go.
Have you ever witnessed an execution?
I have not.
I have not.
Let's talk to Ashton, who is in St. Petersburg, Florida, on the line for Unsure.
Hi, Ashton.
Good.
So I have a question about the death penalty with...
There's the issue of when a new president comes into office, does that president take responsibility for the previous president's death penalty statement?
Death penalty statement, meaning if he commutes any sentences?
Yes, like if the previous president and he wants him...
Robin, I'm not sure I understand the question.
So, in other words, if he, I guess if the original, if the president says he's going to be executed, but then before he's executed, the next president comes in and commutes the sentence.
Yeah, yeah.
No, that would be fine.
I mean, the power of the president is absolute.
And so, thinking back on my question, my answer to regarding the commutations, I mean, there's no precedent in history for any president to come in and undo the commutation decisions that a previous president has made.
So I think that is highly unlikely.
So each president has incredible power, which is why this is such...
Alex in Miami Beach, Florida.
Good morning, Alex.
Good morning.
How are you?
Good.
All right.
I'm in support of the death penalty.
I just think we should be a lot more selective on how we go about applying it.
For instance, here in South Florida, Marjorie Stoneman Douglas, the guy who killed 17 innocent people, he gets a life sentence.
But I've seen people get a death penalty for one or two murders.
So I just don't think that makes any sense.
Right.
What do you think?
Well, so that's...
A little bit about how arbitrarily the death penalty is used.
And it's one of the reasons that people have serious concerns about how we use the death penalty.
Each of these cases is unique.
Juries make different decisions, but there are so many variables that go into who gets charged and who is ultimately selected for the death penalty.
You know, the Supreme Court back in 1976 said we can either use the death penalty fairly and consistently
Good morning, ladies.
I oppose both the death penalty and abortion because human life is so precious and fragile and we've just become very cavalier.
Yes, ma 'am.
I do support the death penalty.
We need it desperately.
You know, one thing I'd like to add, Mimi, is that people feel strongly sometimes about being in favor of the death penalty or not, but that can be a different question from whether this is the right thing to do for these men on the federal death row.
The kind of longstanding problems we have fairly administering the death penalty.
Can be separate considerations.
And so what I think most of the people in this coalition are talking about are problems that have occurred in the past.
We have these 40 men, many of whom were convicted and sentenced to death decades ago under overzealous prosecutorial laws that unfairly targeted black men chiefly.
This is a remedy.
This is a way of remedying a terrible wrong that most people believe has occurred over the last several years with the use of the death penalty.
Just want to show a map of the United States.
This is from your website, deathpenaltyinfo .org.
And that states with and without the death penalty as of this year.
So if you take a look, the red is where the death penalty is instated.
Here, the yellow is not.
And then the blue are...
What are you seeing, Robin, as far as trends in those statistics?
Well, what we've seen in trends is a continued decline in the number of executions and new death sentences.
I can't overemphasize how important the number of new death sentences is.
That's a current day.
That's the most reliable indicator of how our society feels about the death penalty right now.
And, you know, previously, 25, 30 years ago, we had more than 300 death sentences, new death sentences every year.
This year we're going to be in the low 20s.
So it is a dramatic difference.
Why is that?
Well, it shows that people are just really not interested in using the death penalty anymore for all the reasons I identified earlier.
They've lost confidence that it can be accurately used.
I think they've lost confidence that it can be effectively used as a deterrent.
There really is no evidence to support the idea that use of the death penalty deters future crime.
And they're concerned about racism and unfairness.
So the other thing we're seeing as a trend is that the death penalty, where it is still being used, is being used in just a handful of states.
We had just nine states executing people this year.
Here's Sue in East Brunswick, New Jersey, opposed to the death penalty.
Hi Sue.
Go right ahead.
I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I've always wondered instead of using these strange mixes of barbaric drugs,
have they ever considered using something like a powerful overdose of morphine?
Yes.
I think that a number of states that are examining their execution protocol have considered a variety of things, including overdoses of various drugs.
And part of the question here is how much should we be experimenting with human lives?
There is no perfect form of execution that we can guarantee will not result in pain and suffering.
Because things go wrong when human beings are involved.
And again, because of inadequate training or a protocol that does not have specific details, when unexpected things happen, things can go terribly wrong.
We're also seeing that as prisoners get older and spend more time on death row, they have underlying physical conditions that can also complicate.
Let's talk to Andy in Phoenix, Arizona, on the line for support.
Hi, Andy.
The family of the victim should have kind of a say -so with the prosecutor.
I'll give you an example.
You may know about this or may not, but Jocelyn Nungary, the little 12 -year -old girl in Texas who was brutally murdered by two illegals,
her mother thinks it's the appropriate sentencing for that situation.
So I think a lot of people who don't have skin in the game
Well, that's why one of the more unique aspects of the voices that we're hearing in support of commutation are the voices of victims' family members.
These are people, as I said, who've lost loved ones to violence.
One of the more vocal voices in this effort is the Reverend Sharon Reesher.
She lost her mother to the Charleston shooting that Dylann Roof was convicted of committing and sentenced to death for.
She's been extremely vocal with the fact that she does not believe that executing Dylann Roof is going to bring back her mother or ease her pain.
And so she is among the prominent voices that are persuading, trying to persuade President Biden to take this action.
On the other hand, if there's a family that says, I really want the death penalty and I want it done quickly, does that make a difference?
Well, I think those are voices that prosecutors listen to.
But I think the important thing to hear is that all victims' voices are not the same.
They're very different, and it's a very individual decision.
And what we've seen in recent years, by way of trend, is more and more victims, family members, who are speaking out to say that this does not bring me any more peace, it does not solve the hurt and the pain that I feel,
and it's not something that I'm in support of.
All right, and here is John in Florida, line for Unsure.
John, you there?
John is not there.
Yeah, I'm here.
Okay, go ahead.
Yeah, the reason I'm asking about everybody's bouncing around what they should live, what they should die, I'm wondering, who's paying for keeping somebody alive?
Because only about half the people in this country pay taxes.
The people that pay the taxes are the ones keeping these folk alive.
So, is it up to the state, or is it up to the federal to pay the fee for those people staying alive, or is it the taxpayer?
Yeah, great question.
It's the taxpayer.
That's another good reason why people have started to think twice about using the death penalty.
The death penalty is enormously expensive.
Every single study in the states that have conducted it has demonstrated that using the death penalty is many times more expensive than sentencing someone to an alternate sentence of even life without parole in a maximum security setting.
Why?
What are the costs associated?
Yeah, right from the get -go at every step of the process in a capital case, there are additional expenses.
At the moment that the prosecution decides to seek death, that automatically makes that criminal case the most expensive criminal case of its kind.
The jury needs to be carefully selected.
Juries are only seated if they agree that they can provide a death sentence.
So they need to be, it takes a lot of time to ask all the right questions and to seat them.
There's additional security that's needed at a capital case.
Capital cases are two parts, a guilt phase and a separate sentencing phase.
It takes a lot more time, a lot more resources, and a lot more effort on both the part of the prosecution and on the defense.
And that's just the trial.
Then subsequently we have appeals, we have additional security at a separate death row for people to be kept, all the way leading through to the execution itself.
So by any measure...
The death penalty is far more expensive, which is a reason that many people have said, look, I have other things I would like my taxpayer dollars to be invested in.
Can you explain death row?
Is it a separate area of a prison, or what is it?
Yeah, it's different in every state.
In the federal system, the federal death row is at Terre Haute, Indiana.
This is a separate facility where people who are under sentence of death are kept.
These are incredibly difficult isolating conditions.
Most people are in their cells for the majority of every day.
We're good to go.
I think?
We're good to go.
I think?
Here's Lorraine in Naples, Florida, on the line for Opposed.
Thank you.
Comment?
That was great.
Nothing to add.
Ronnie in Hartsville, South Carolina, on the line for support.
The problem is we don't have any staffing in these prisons.
You're supposed to have 25 and 30 people working, and you've got five or six trying to watch 1 ,600, 1 ,800 inmates.
And it's dangerous, and you feel sorry for the people, the inmates, but you don't feel sorry for the staffing.
I mean, they endanger all the time.
And now you want to keep more people.
Yeah, it's an interesting comment and not my area of expertise, but I will say that some of the voices that are part of this broad coalition that's urging President Biden include voices of corrections staff and officials.
Why is that?
Well, you know, we've become more aware of the trauma that these corrections officials and staff experience when they are participating in executions.
We've heard from a great number of them.
You know, supporting commutations in state systems, but also at the federal level, we have a corrections official who presided over a number of executions in Ohio saying that the death penalty is not going to result in any kind of deterrent effect and doesn't help anyone,
and all it does is traumatize the staff that have been working with these prisoners for so many years.
So these are really unique perspectives.
And Margo in Berryville, Arkansas.
Good morning, Margo.
Morning, Mimi.
Thank you for having me on.
I just want to share.
My brother was murdered in Phoenix, Arizona, and they did catch the guys that did it.
It was horrible, horrific.
And I'll make the story short.
When it came time for sentencing, The judge gave the family, gave us the opportunity to say what we wanted.
Do we want the death penalty or do we want life without parole?
And after giving it much thought and prayer, mine was to give him life without parole is what he got.
And the other guy that participated in stabbing him multiple times.
And they were sentenced to to life without parole and they ended up.
The one tried kill himself and the one did die, but before they died they they said that they were sorry and to the family for what they did, and you know, I just personally myself, I couldn't say kill him.
It was just something inside of me As a Christian,
I could not take somebody's life.
I did not want that hanging on my shoulders for the rest of my life.
And I left that up to God.
And so that was my thoughts on it.
And for almost two years, the family, we were just held kind of in limbo, waiting to see what the judge was going to say.
And the judge had each one of us that didn't attend the sentencing to write a letter to the court.
And I wrote a little letter, and he read them to the court.
And basically what I said was, today, you stand before the judge on this earth, and he's going to sentence you one way or the other.
But you will stand before the great judge one day, and you will be judged.
Marco, thank you so much for sharing that with us.
Thank you, Marco.
Richard is next.
Minneapolis, Minnesota.
Line for support.
Good morning, Richard.
Good morning.
You know, I was shocked listening to Robin say how much money it costs to keep them with a death penalty and appeals.
I think that's a bunch of BS.
When someone's proven guilty, beyond a doubt, they should be put to death ASAP, not put in prison for 10 or 20 years, paying their medical and feeding them and guarding them.
And that's my opinion.
Yeah, well, you know, one of the reasons we need some time after a conviction is because we know that we don't get it right all the time.
For lots of reasons I've already mentioned, including the fact that sometimes the best lawyers, the best defense lawyers aren't involved.
Sometimes there are mistakes with the evidence.
Sometimes there's prosecutorial misconduct.
We need time to look carefully through the trial, raise any possible issue.
And make good decisions about whether that conviction was correct and that death sentence was correct.
And that unfortunately does take time.
It's a thoughtful process that takes many years sometimes.
But I think that's what we need to do if we are willing to use the most severe.
We're good to go.
I think?
And we have extremely strict criteria at the Death Penalty Information Center.
We only look at people who've been completely exonerated by a court.
So this is a very small number of what we think is the actual number of people who were wrongfully convicted and sentenced to death.
So this is why we need that time.
We absolutely need that time after a conviction and a death sentence to make sure we didn't make a mistake that we need to correct.
Christopher, Daytona Beach, Florida.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How do the men need to hear this conversation?
Everyone that's calling in that is a male is so quick to accuse and just kill.
And then you listen to the women speak.
There's life -sustaining verbiage.
The vocabulary is different.
The heart is there.
This is why...
It's kind of confounding to me to hear both of you speak so eloquently.
You're both very well -spoken, very intelligent.
But to hear the politics brought into killing people and hearing you on C -SPAN speak about the death penalty like this?
I don't know.
It just seems like maybe some of these callers are calling in to say that that's their opinion and that these people should just be killed.
All right.
All right, Christopher.
Robin.
Yeah, an interesting perspective.
I appreciate it.
You know, one thing we haven't talked about a lot is the fact that so many of the people who are in our criminal justice system writ large, and then especially the people who end up on death row, are people with really significant vulnerabilities.
These are people with severe mental illness.
These are people with intellectual disabilities, people who have experienced unspeakable trauma and neglect.
One of the reasons I think we're seeing fewer new death sentences and some of the changes we're seeing in public opinion polls is because we know so much more about the effects of mental illness and trauma on behavior.
Our defense lawyers are doing a better job presenting that information to juries, and juries appreciate that so much more.
And when they have to make that ultimate decision...
It's Robin Marr, Executive Director of the Death Penalty Information Center.
You can find out more about that At deathpenaltyinfo .org.
Robin, thanks so much for joining us.
It's always a pleasure, Mimi.
Thank you.
And that's our show for today.
We will be back tomorrow morning, 7 a .m. Eastern Time.
Until then, have a great Saturday.
C -SPAN's Washington Journal, our live forum involving you to discuss the latest issues in government, politics, and public policy.
From Washington and across the country.
Coming up Sunday morning.
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