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Oct. 13, 2023 - Candace Owens
37:10
Was THIS The Reason for Steven Avery’s Deviant Behavior?
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All right, everybody, it's Friday, which means that we will be diving into episode eight of Convicting a Murderer, which premiered last night.
I am joined today by my friend, Lauren Chen.
She's a fellow true crime junkie to discuss it.
Okay, Lauren, I know that you've been into this series.
We started this basically on the fence, having watched Making a Murderer, but we're very into the story of Stephen Avery, thought maybe plausibly he could have not been guilty or framed.
Where are you at now that we are on episode eight?
So, it's been a journey, because from, like you said, the get-go, I was like, when I first saw Making Murderer, this guy is innocent.
How could this travesty happen?
This is a miscarriage of justice.
Years later, I saw that his ex-fiance was kind of speaking out about how he was a creep and abusive, and that made me question, like, hmm...
But this is Saint Stephen Avery.
How could this be possible? And seeing the first few episodes was very, very eye-opening as to the type of character that Stephen Avery is.
But, you know, there are obviously people out there who say, well, just because he's a creep and maybe molested his niece.
I mean, that's a weird thing to try to minimize.
And his daughter. Yeah. Exactly.
But just because he did that, that doesn't mean he's an actual murderer.
It's like, okay. But then looking at all of the actual evidence that's been uncovered, you do get a sense that while the jury who actually made the decision to convict him, they were just given a lot more information that viewers of the series never had.
And so right now, there's almost this sense of relief because you want to believe that an innocent person was not rotting away in jail, right?
That's a good thing that the justice system is working as it should.
But now the question is, for me at least, the people who made this documentary, did they actually believe he was innocent?
Were they just trying to grab headlines and be misleading?
That's what I want to know now.
I think their silence is telling, right?
People go out to them for comment.
What do you think about convicting a murderer when they go out to Netflix for comment?
It's no comment. Whereas if I was this person, as they presented themselves, you know, these two women who went down to tell the story, they couldn't believe this happened to this man.
If you genuinely believed that and you saw someone that was creating a series that was saying the opposite, where are those documentary filmmakers in the press saying, like, this is abhorrent?
I can't believe... That they would ever try to do this.
This man is actually innocent.
Instead, they're staying away from it because for them, really confusing people was what it was all about.
Collecting a check is what it was all about, in my opinion.
And then completely staying out of the fray because there has to be some level of guilt for turning this man into a saint in people's minds.
And it's been interesting for me to follow the Reddit threads.
Guys, if you're back home, I am following your Reddit threads and seeing people's opinions that are now completely changed, saying, I can't believe that I fell for it.
But Hey, we all believed that Netflix was telling us the truth way back when, which is totally true.
I do want to jump into just Stephen Avery as a person.
He's someone who really can't shut up.
It's kind of this comical element that he just speaks to everybody all the time.
The reporter, he's talking to his family members, he's contradicting himself.
So much of the trouble that he is in is because he literally cannot shut up.
He is literally the magician that believes in his own magic.
And I think... This first clip really shows this, how much he contradicts himself about whether or not he had a fire on the night of Teresa Hallback's disappearance, whether or not he burned in his fire pit, which obviously we learn is where her remains are found.
So let's take a listen to Stephen being unable to shut up, talking to various people, and contradicting himself.
The last time you burned anything was like last week or the week before, two weeks ago, three weeks ago.
And then during the week, which week?
Like last week? No?
While doing searches around Stephen's property and yard, human remains were found that consisted of burned and cremated bones in and around a burn pit just behind Stephen's garage.
I think it takes a lot to burn a body.
I think it takes a couple days.
I don't know. I couldn't tell you.
I couldn't tell you either. But you would imagine that.
Yeah.
Especially with Bowen's.
Yeah.
And I didn't have no fire there all week.
Stephen Avery flat out denied having a fire at all that night.
In fact, he denied having a fire that entire week.
I only remember that Monday night.
The Monday night before that?
The day I went up to the hospital with Scott to see his mom.
That day.
What day was that?
That was a Monday.
The 31st?
But I didn't have a fire there then. Not on a Monday night.
Yeah, I think you did.
Were you home all night by yourself then?
Yeah. So Stephen Avery told investigators that he was home alone all night, right?
However, his memory suddenly improves when he speaks to Barb, his sister, who informs him that, no, she remembers the fire that night, and she had even seen him standing next to it.
And suddenly Stephen remembers that, oh yeah, that's right.
Not only did I have a fire that night, but also I wasn't alone either.
Because when we came home at 8 o'clock, you were standing outside by the fire.
But Brendan was with me.
Initially, Avery said he never burned anything on Halloween.
Avery recalled differently in our next interview.
I burned Monday night, but that was only brushing, I think, four tires.
The sheriff says the contradictory statements are telling.
He is apparently unable to remember what he tells one person one week and tells another reporter the next week.
There were a lot of witnesses to him burning back there on October 31st.
Bobby saw it when he left for work.
Blaine said that he saw it when he got home from trick-or-treating.
Barb, Barb's boyfriend.
Do you know anybody else that saw that big fire?
At first, nobody in the family remembers the fire.
In the beginning, nobody really admitted that there was a fire.
It never came up, really. When asked, Brendan didn't say it happened on Monday night.
Blaine didn't really recall it.
It's only until after the bones are found and re-interviewed.
In some truthers eyes, it makes more sense to them that the police brainwashed all of these parties into believing there was a fire on October 31st when really there wasn't.
We have to look at the timeline of statements, which are more accurate before police intimidated what their statement originally said, what it said after talking to police.
Candy, she saw the big fire.
Did you know that? I'm not denying that there was a fire.
I want to see the words that them use a big fire, or is that your words?
I don't know. I could see the flames, and I was like, holy man, he has a huge fire down there.
I don't understand how a house couldn't have melted.
So she shows up, his last scene walking to Avery's trailer.
The trailer he says she was never in.
And her ashes, her burnt bone fragments, are found in his backyard.
And she disappeared off the face of the earth from that moment on.
Lauren, your reaction to just, I don't know, it's Halloween night.
I feel people obviously make the argument that he's stupid, that he's low IQ, doesn't really have anything to do with his memory, right?
So how do we go from, I didn't burn anything, to, oh, I burned about a week ago, to suddenly like, oh, yes, that's right, I burned, but it was just some tires and some brush.
Right. Well, Stephen being low IQ, which I don't think there's much of a debate about, it may not affect his memory, but it definitely affects his ability to lie.
And this is what I really don't understand.
Like you said, this is Halloween night, so it's not as if there are no people around.
And also the times that are being mentioned, there was a fire around 8 p.m.
This isn't 2 a.m., anything like that.
It seems like this was just a very poorly planned attempt at getting rid of the So not only is there a huge fire that obviously people can see for miles, I would assume, if it's as big as Candy was alluding to, but you also have it at a time and a day where there's people around.
So it doesn't really seem like it's up for questioning that the fire did happen, and I think it's also important to note that the fact that he tried to Hide it first?
That's suspicious. I mean, there are people who might say, yeah, but we're years after the fact.
Now, when he was initially being investigated, it was not years after the fact.
You would have remembered.
Especially the timeline, you know, if you have your day where the photographer comes and then you have a fire.
It's like, those are two almost landmarks in your day where you would think you would be able to...
How often are you having a photographer come to your house?
How often are you burning...
In the backyard or in the back pit at your house.
Exactly. Exactly right. You would remember these things and you would recall them.
And so I'm very troubled by people that overlook that fact but also that keep wanting us to hold on to the fact that Stephen Avery is low IQ. Brennan Dassey is low IQ. I mean people tried to present Brennan Dassey as if he was mentally retarded.
He's not mentally retarded.
But the show basically paints him as being that.
Yeah. Like actually mentally challenged like Forrest Gump level IQ. And then, you know, last week when I had Matt Walsham, we sort of talked about, I wanted to have him on the show to talk about Brindasi because there seemed to be this high level of sympathy for him.
And I think that that's why people keep mentioning the fact that they have a low IQ. Like, we're supposed to be sympathetic if somebody has a low IQ and commits a crime, right?
And like, oh, well, they didn't know what they were doing.
And Matt brought up a very good point, which is that if you are so low IQ that you don't know that raping and killing somebody is wrong, then you need to be removed from the street.
You need to be Either way, we need you removed from the streets.
And so I was very interested in whether or not people's perspectives have cracked on Brendan Dassey.
I know that you had questions about Brendan Dassey.
I know that Brendan Tatum even said, you know, when I watched, he's like, I felt bad for Brendan Dassey.
When you really take a look at his full confession, or we didn't tell the full confession, but more portions of his confession that were neglected by making a murderer, had that transformed for you at all?
So for me, when it comes to Brendan, I think the issue was not necessarily that he's guilty, but also low IQ. It's just that he's so low IQ, he could be talked into confessing to something that he didn't do.
Which, if you look at the footage, including in Making a Murderer, it very much seems like that.
That's what they're saying, oh yeah, add this, draw this here, right?
It almost seems like someone is being coached or groomed to confess to something they didn't do.
But, I mean, as it turns out, he's not actually mentally challenged to that extent.
He's not the brightest bulb in the tree.
I think that kind of runs in the family from what I'm seeing.
You know, his mother even knowing that he was being questioned and choosing to not be
there or to not have a lawyer present, you know, I still don't think that was a fair
thing we're talking about the criminal justice.
But it's not as if she was manipulated.
It's not as if the wool was pulled over her eyes by the police who were just trying to coerce a confession.
That's not actually what happened.
She went in the cruiser with them to the confession.
Absolutely. That is relevant to bring up when you're trying to paint the police forces supposedly masterminding this entire narrative.
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Yeah, well, let's get into Brendan Dassey because this question about whether or not Brendan was with Stephen at the time of the fire, another add-on that Stephen sort of remembers after the fact.
So first it's like, I didn't burn anything.
Then it's, well, no, I did burn, but it was a week ago.
Then we've got, okay, no, I burned that night that she disappeared, but it was some tires and some brush.
And then finally he recalls that there was another person with him.
Let's take a listen. This call is subject to monitoring and recording.
Thank you for using Evercom.
My love of my life.
Is this the first time it rang?
No. There was a phone call with Jody on the evening of Halloween.
The Deatrice was killed. Stephen had told law enforcement that he was in the house by the time Jody called.
I thought it was in bed, like, I don't know.
I thought it was somewhere else.
Because then I think there was a TV on it.
What did you watch?
He was bad watching a porn movie.
Sex programs?
Sex programs?
Like, we're all screaming now.
I'm just walking out here.
He clearly wasn't in the house at that time when Jody called.
He was outside and he was talking about his soda.
So he also says on this call...
I'm cleaning up the yard a little bit.
He never told officers that.
He told the officers that he was in the house watching TV that night.
Stephen certainly appears to be confused about any incriminating events that took place on October 31st.
It seems to be actually a trend.
He can't seem to remember anything until somebody else remembers something first.
From first saying that Teresa never showed up and that he didn't have a fire that night to now saying, okay, no, Teresa actually did show up and actually I did have a fire, but Brendan was with me.
That's another thing. Why didn't Steven tell investigators about Brendan being with him that night originally?
Because Brendan should have been his alibi.
Wouldn't Steven want them to go talk to Brendan so that he could confirm everything that Steven said happened that night?
If nothing happened, that is, why not say that right away?
Don't forget that investigators didn't actually find out about Brendan being at the fire until Brendan told them, which was almost four months later.
Okay. Um...
Looks good to me. Did you want him to maybe draw the fire pit?
Yeah, let's do that. That's a good idea.
What is depicted in Exhibit 210?
This is a drawing he did of the burn pit area.
He's got the garage. He correctly drew out where the burn pit was.
There's that little area.
It's all clear.
Was the dog there yet at that time?
Yeah, the dog was like right over there.
Draw the dog house in, where the dog house is.
This is the area that we were attempting to search, and this is a dog house here behind the garage.
And the dog pretty much had free reign of this area.
Oh.
There was a junkyard dog there and this junkyard dog was named Bear and it was none too friendly.
And what that caused was a lot of our searchers not to get near that area and especially searchers with dogs.
My dog tried to get to a specific area behind the garage and tried multiple times but Bear was making it impossible to do so.
Basically, the dog was vicious.
It came at us, barked.
I actually stood by with my weapon drawn as Detective Remiker attempted to get into there.
That was a mean, mean dog.
There was no way to search it with that dog there.
So you chose not to search it?
Correct. We should have removed that dog even sooner.
Her dog was definitely scenting something in that area.
So I want to first back up because while we were watching this, both of us had a reaction to Steve sitting down with the police officer and just being like, yeah, I was watching some porn that way.
And I spent a lot of time on my podcast talking about pornography and how it's linked to sexual deviancy.
And people that are porn addicts, which actually throughout this series we didn't touch upon, His large stash of porn enough and what the implications are of someone who spends that much time watching porn.
So much so that he's comfortable saying, like, you know, I just throw on a little porn tape.
As if he was just, like, you know, watching reruns of Golden Girls.
That's also a telling aspect of this and really paints a picture of who Stephen Avery is, I think.
No, it's pretty disgusting, especially when you put into context that he is someone who is engaged, right?
His fiancé was calling him.
And it's also Halloween night.
So are there trick-or-treaters that are going to be coming and interrupting him?
I don't know. It's just... It's not the...
That squeaky clean image that, again, making a murderer would have you believe.
And especially like this detail, Stephen's alleged alibi that he was just sitting at home watching porn.
I think it's also telling that that wasn't included in the documentary either.
Right. Just sitting at home watching porn.
I remember when Sergeant Coburn in an earlier episode discussed his finding the key.
And he talks about why he was just kind of smashing things into the bag.
And he's like, it's just a porn stash.
Like he was really grossed out by how much porn this man was consuming.
And I'm a big believer...
Once you go down that path, it triggers addiction, and once you become a sexual addict, it's very plausible that you can, for some people, engage into further and further sexual deviant things, whether that means watching more aggressive forms of porn, but if you already have a violent streak like Stephen Avery has proven throughout his lifetime, and you add that with a porn addiction, it can be something
that becomes very dangerous.
And obviously, it was something that became very dangerous.
But jumping into this Brendan Dassey thing, so it's like first, you know, he gives, he
finally cops the fact that, yes, I had a fire, I burned some tie, I burned some brush, decides
not to include the fact that Brendan Dassey was with him until four months later.
Brendan Dassey says, I was with him, and then he cops to it.
What does that tell us?
Well, I think it's interesting because this is my theory.
I would love to hear yours. I think Stephen was afraid that involving Brendan, because Brendan is low IQ, he wouldn't be able to navigate lying as seamlessly as Stephen clearly does.
So I think even though if they were just hanging out and everything was above board, you would immediately say, oh no, I was with Brendan.
We were just hanging out. We didn't Murder or torture or burn any bodies?
Of course not. You talk to him because of, I think, Stephen understanding that Brendan would actually be a liability.
In this case, I think that's why he chose to hide it.
He would rather lie and say he was alone rather than have police talk to Brendan.
And, you know, after seeing his confession that they got very easily from him, I understand why.
Yeah, and it seems because Brendan did have more of a conscience at the end of the day when we understand these two stories.
Like you said, Stephen Avery lies without resolve and Brendan Dassey, we learned, lost 40 pounds.
That's very significant. It means that he was holding a lot of guilt.
He was wracked by this guilt of what his uncle, not coerced him to do, but invited him to do what she did for very basic, primitive reasons because he wanted to see what it would be like to have sex with a woman.
And so I think for those reasons, you realize that Brendan is definitely...
person than his uncle Steven is in some regards.
But yeah, it's really interesting that this is kind of completely left out of the Making
a Murderer narrative, which is really kind of insisting on Steven Avery being a standup
guy.
All of these things seem to me to be really relevant.
And actually concerning Brendan's weight loss and weight gain, something that I just want
to touch on really fast is that the fact that he lost all that weight, again, not mentioned
in Making a Murderer.
And actually, when the Making a Murderer crew, they follow Brendan to where he is now in prison, we see that he is kind of ballooned up.
And so as viewers, we are left to believe, like, oh, he's clearly into a repression.
Look at how much weight he's gained.
But now, given full context, it's actually, you know, that's him regularly.
It's that he had lost weight before, but now at being in prison, I don't know, I hope he's, you know, being rehabilitated and he's trying to, like, turn a corner, at least morally, and try to atone for what he's done.
It seems like maybe that guilt has worn off or he's coming to terms with what he's done versus the Making a murder, I would say.
They don't explicitly try to paint that picture, but I think people can read between the lines.
They're making it seem as if this weight gain that he's now experiencing, that's the anomaly, and it's presumably because he's so depressed or whatever, instead of it's almost the inverse.
Right, that's exactly right.
And it's interesting to think about him in prison now, and it's definitely an afterthought.
Where is Brendan Dassey's mindset?
Well, you have to imagine it's quite convoluted when actually he was turned into a celebrity for what he did.
Right? So, of course, I'm sure while he was going through the trial and realizing that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison and, you know, covering for his uncle in many ways by not accepting the plea deal and allowing the trial to play out in its entirety for himself when he could have been out in 10 years.
Well, then we see that they became celebrities.
This actually, Stephen Avery's character hasn't transformed at all.
You've got fiancées. They've got girlfriends.
You have people that are in the streets crying saying that you're innocent when you know that You're guilty, but you never, ever expected to find any level of celebrity in your life if you were Brendan Dassey.
So you have to imagine how that's warped him.
He actually has now spent as much of his life as a celebrity for the crime that he's done.
So where he may have been willing to atone when he was losing that weight and realizing he'd done something wrong, it's weird when the world then tells you, no, actually, you're absolutely a victim and we don't believe that you did it.
It's got to be totally trippy psychologically for Brendan Dassey.
Okay, well at the end of that clip we see that the police officers are talking about why, which became a big conspiracy, why they didn't initially find Teresa Hallback's remains.
Obviously we see now that he had a guard dog, so to speak, and they could not access that area.
They probably, they do say that retrospectively they should have just had the dog removed and done a proper search.
We didn't do that. But I do want to cut to this clip of Stephen talking about the bones which were then later discovered on his property.
Take a listen. Put her on the fire.
And what do you do once she's on the fire?
We threw some tires on top of her and some branches.
Barbara had five tires over there and I burned four of them.
And there was still one laying down.
But that was done and Take no time.
I only burn one at a time.
Do tires burn real fast?
I know they smell real bad, right?
Yeah. They smoke a lot.
I don't know, within 15 minutes, my tire's done.
And I only burned four of them.
So I had five of them and I just got them on the way.
It just seemed odd that you just happened to be burning tires on the same day that this happened.
What time did you go home to your place that night?
About 9.30.
Was Steven out there when you went home?
Yeah. Because he said he was going to watch the fire until it burnt down a little bit more.
We even have other witnesses seeing Avery after Brendan went home, still at this fire, still standing there looking at it.
Avery was seen by his nephew, Blaine, standing by that fire as late as 11 o'clock, 11.30 at night.
He was there. He had a fire.
Her bones were found there.
He told me they were probably sheep bones.
He told many of us that.
Why do you guys have dead sheep out there?
Well, my dad used to have sheep in the yard.
You know, and sometimes they die, and they just lay there.
You know, and the bones would be there.
And that's why I figured, well, maybe they were wanting to see, you know.
To me, it seems like a really inappropriate thing to say.
Peace.
Four tires and some brush ain't gonna burn a body.
See here, it's all open.
Ain't gonna get that hot. Except for maybe when I throw a tire in.
Basically, when the fire's all done, I assume Steven went out there and raked that into a big ball.
Pieces, small fragments of bones were found intermingled with tire wires.
I noticed what I believe to be skull fragments in that debris and intertwined within the steel belted tires.
It would be very difficult if Teresa was burned somewhere else and someone snuck on their property and sprinkled
these bones around that they would be intertwined in the middle of this and
throughout this block.
Could it be possible? I imagine maybe it could be possible, but very unlikely.
So the defense's theory was that somebody had killed Theresa and then gathered her bones and dropped them in Stephen Avery's backyard.
I think when you've heard it all, you'll conclude that it's at least most likely, more probable, that the bones were moved to Stephen Avery's burn area, not burned there and moved from that area.
Dean Strang, man.
I mean, when you really string together the conspiracy theory that had to be built of all of the things that had to take place in order for them to frame Stephen Avery from the blood in the vehicle, from brainwashing Brendan Dassey, brainwashing Stephen Avery, brainwashing Candy...
You know, his own family members to waiting and being sure that Stephen wasn't home, not only breaking in to get his blood from him shaving on the sink, but then coming back, somehow having Teresa's bones burned down in time, dumping them in his yard.
It's incomprehensible to me that there are still people hanging on to the idea that Stephen Avery might actually be innocent and be framed.
And it's so funny because when I look back watching Making a Murderer, I thought his defense attorney, Dean Strang, was just the hero.
He's painted as the hero of the story.
I know after the documentary aired, he had so many fans.
He was kind of being hailed as like, thank you for being the one good lawyer.
But now I look back and I actually think of him more as, you know, those BLM defenders who were like, well, they did it.
Like, you know, just concocting these terrible stories that will never make sense instead of admitting that, okay, this guy probably just did it.
Right. Right.
And I don't fault him because he's a defense attorney and that's literally your job.
Like, yeah, you have a right to lawyer.
Your job is to try to sell the impossible for the jury.
And obviously in this circumstance, the jury were going, okay, that's a lot of things that had to have taken place.
I mean, lightning would have had to strike in that precise place a thousand times in the same night.
I mean, down from Brendan's confession down to Kayla Avery.
I mean, there were so many pieces of this that had to have perfectly fit
in order to believe the narrative that the cops were behind all of this.
And- And Stephen Avery's just the most unlucky man on the planet.
He's so unlucky.
So unlucky.
He's so unlucky.
And so it is quite interesting to see that.
And people who didn't even know some of these big pieces, which one of the biggest pieces is that Teresa's jeans
were found in that burn pit.
You know, there's no explanation for how her jean rivets, down to what she was wearing, was found in that burn rivet.
And hearing her sister testify about those jeans, an incredibly moving moment.
And so we're going to show that as a last clip here.
Where's her clothes at this time?
In the garage.
So how'd they get out in the garage?
When we went out there to clean up the blood.
We clean that up and then he told me to go throw it on the fire.
Throw what on the fire?
The clothes. That's full of stuff, the blood that we cleaned up.
In terms of your examination of the items from the burn pit itself, did you find evidence of clothing such as rivets or grommets or things?
Yes. We recovered a couple of brass colored rivets that, like what you might see on a
pair of blue jeans or jean type clothing. At least two rivets were found in that debris.
Five rivets.
There were tooth fragments.
There were gene rivets.
And what does the rivet say?
The rivet is stamped Daisy Fuentes.
The jury was able to look at photos of the rivets and knew that not only Teresa's bones were found there, but her clothing had been burned as well.
What really stuck with me was on the stand when Teresa's little sister testified about how she knew Teresa had a pair of Daisy Fuentes jeans.
How do you know that she had a pair of Daisy Fuentes jeans?
Well one day she showed me a new pair of jeans she had and I noticed that the brand was Daisy Fontes and I knew that Daisy Fontes was an older person so I told Teresa that she has old person jeans.
There you have it, hearing it from her sister's mouth, which is just a moment that is very sad that our sister is testifying about this conversation.
It reminds us she was a real person.
She was a real person. And it's very rare.
And I remember as we were doing this documentary actively, I just wanted to say we can't forget Teresa Hall back in this because that's what Making a Murderer did.
This was a real person. We're good to go.
That person would just say and make up anything to satisfy you to get out of this extremely threatening situation.
You and Matt Walsh speak of this kid like he thinks at the level that you did at 16.
Lauren, what do you have to say to that? So I think this person probably believes similarly to what I did before, that it's not that he is dumb and did it.
He's dumb and didn't do it and was being coerced.
But I think when you watch more of the interview, his confession...
How making a murderer was making it seem that they're just saying like, oh, did you do the leading questions or what appeared to be leading questions really aren't leading questions.
They're clarifications of what information he is voluntarily offering that if he wasn't involved, he wouldn't actually know.
The cops wouldn't have known it.
Exactly. He was giving information that the cops literally didn't know.
was a break in the case was Brendan Dassey talking about the pit, talking about burning,
talking about all of these things.
The cops had no idea that Brendan was involved.
They thought he perhaps witnessed something when they went down there.
So it's just, I guess I would offer back to Patrick is, how did Brendan know all of this?
How did he actually know?
Slow or not slow, high IQ or low IQ, wanting to go back to class
or not wanting to go back to class.
How did Brendan know all of these very precise details about how Teresa Hallback was killed?
That's a question.
Betty White writes, he could have told his uncle no and left.
He wasn't being threatened or held hostage.
He wanted to do it, so he did it.
He wasn't a kid. He was 16.
He knew that it was wrong.
Interesting perspective that he could have when his uncle said, oh, go in there and get you some.
He could have turned around. What is your response to that?
Yeah, he could have turned around.
He could have even gone a step further, tried to stop him.
He could have gone to get someone to help after when the investigation was underway.
He could have said something.
There were many times, unfortunately, throughout all this where Brennan Dessie could have made it right, but he actively chose not to, which I think is very telling.
And that tells you about his impulse.
People that are young are impulsive.
People that are low IQ are impulsive.
You know, and that's something that me and Matt Walsh discussed is just, like, impulse becomes— criminals are impulsive.
That's the whole point. They don't stop.
They don't rationalize. They don't think about the consequences.
It's just lizard brain action. Exactly.
You just think instantly about how you feel, and then you react to how you feel in the moment.
Regarding Stephen's phone calls, as a final comment, I think this is pretty great.
One thing I've taken away from Cam...
Is how damaging the jailhouse phone calls are.
Hearing Stephen Avery contradict himself over and over and trying to coerce his family is extremely damning.
Thank God that piece of S.H.T. is exactly where he needs to be.
A case could be made for Brendan Dassey to be released early since he was only a teenager.
But I won't lose any sleep when he spends the rest of his life behind bars.
Yeah, the prison phone calls.
I was thinking that.
Like, this man is just giving his entire life story, like, really incriminating himself on these phone calls, which they tell you are recorded.
Right. Another example of this is low IQ behavior.
Right. Us being able to access them.
And trust me, guys, it is going to get worse.
These prison phone calls just somehow get worse every single time.
I think he's been in prison so long, but he just thinks you get comfortable.
It's kind of like you hear people that are on reality TV shows where they say that, like, the first couple of days that you're filming, you're, like, very aware the camera's there.
And then you kind of forget that they're there.
And people make tons of mistakes for reality TV. And the producers are there to capture those moments because they just forgot the cameras were there.
Stephen Avery definitely just forgot that all of these prison phone calls were being recorded.
And I think as someone who enjoys true crime, I don't know if you do this, but I am 99% sure I could definitely commit a crime better than the majority of You know, the stories that these cases are about and just not incriminating yourself on recorded devices is probably one of those steps that I would do.
You would hope so. You would hope so, right?
Well, if you want to talk about incriminating things that you hear on a recorded phone call, wait until episode 9.
An absolute bomb is going to drop, you guys.
Bomb. Absolute bomb.
And if you still are a Stephen Avery supporter...
After episode 9, I don't know what to do with you.
I don't know what you should do with yourself.
Episode 9 is going to air on Thursday.
And of course, we have a little teaser for you.
So take a look. Coming up on Convicting a Murderer.
Everybody knew they were not journalists.
They were making a documentary.
They had their angle. Once you start to examine the facts of the case and not just the docu-series interpretation of the facts, you realize that, yeah, he was manipulated, but it certainly wasn't by the cops.
Don't go for a pre-bargain or this and that.
Because you do that, then you're hurting more of you guys.
He chose to listen to that and not accept the pleas.
One of Stephen's more surprising allegations came in the form of a letter that Stephen wrote nearly six years after his trial.
To put the case against me that I murdered Teresa Holbaugh.
How does it make you feel? Makes me pretty mad.
Why would he want to blame it on me?
He knew the right decisions to make, could have saved her, and didn't.
Chose not to he was the one person that could have saved her
I'm gonna be so in the reddit feed so in the reddit feeds when you guys watch episode 9 because as I said it is
explosive Lauren, thank you so much for being here.
Ladies and gentlemen, that is all the time that we have for today.
Everybody have a great weekend.
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