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Sept. 28, 2023 - Candace Owens
44:25
The Real, Unedited Police Testimony
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Convicting a Murderer episode 6, it drops today.
There is going to be a lot of feedback.
Obviously, we are continuing our dive into whether or not the police set him up for the $36 million plot, which we largely debunked last week.
I want to start this episode.
Of course, we've got Brandon Tatum back.
Former police officer. So he gives us the best takes of all the things that we should or should not be seeing coming from a police force.
I want to start by just jumping right into Coburn and just looking at his testimony.
I found this to be the most egregious thing ever.
We know that this eventually leads in Coburn suing Netflix because he endured a lot of stress because people believed that they were watching actual footage from the testimony, chronologically at the very least, and didn't realize that they were kind of copying and pasting it So let's just watch that first, and then I want to get your response to it.
So in Making a Murderer, when Colburn is testifying about his call to dispatch, his body language comes across as very suspicious.
He does this sort of dry heap.
But what viewers aren't aware of is that some of Colburn's reaction shots are from a different part of trial.
Three of the shots were taken from about 45 minutes earlier in the trial.
One of them is just over waiting for Strang's first question.
He suddenly sits up like he's now listening intently.
But they use that shot in the part where Strang says he's now going to play the dispatch call.
I'm going to ask you to listen, if you would, to a short phone call.
And then they use that shot again, less than a minute later.
The plate comes back to a missing person or woman.
Yes, sir. And then they used that shot a third time, again out of place.
This is the first time your integrity's been questioned?
As it applies to being a police officer, yes.
Okay. And it's not the first time Mr.
Avery's has been, so I have some questions for you.
It's like their go-to nervous shot of Coburn.
What really happens before Strang plays the call looks to me like Coburn is just simply bored out of his mind.
The actual reaction Coburn had to the integrity question...
That's when he's wringing his hands?
...is what they used last in the license plate scene.
Were you looking at these plates when you called them in?
No, sir. To me, that seems like a liar.
His eyes, his hands.
Colburn looked uncomfortable.
It looked like he was caught.
The real trial footage stays on Strang.
And the next time you see Colburn, he's answering a different question.
One of the big aha moments for a lot of people in Making a Murderer was Andy Colburn's phone call.
He had found the car, but they don't realize that the testimony about it had been edited.
Avery's defense attorneys ask him...
Well, you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota.
His response in the film was yes.
Yes. That question and answer exchange never happened in trial.
In real life, Ken Kratz objected.
You can understand why someone might think that, can't you?
It's a conclusion, Judge, debating the promise of the jury.
Um, I agree.
The objections sustained. The question was never answered.
And in fact, when you see Colburn say yes, he's answering the exact opposite question.
This call sounded like hundreds of other license plate or registration checks you've done through dispatch before.
Yes. Andy agrees that this call was not suspicious.
It was perfectly ordinary.
This is such an interesting series and it's real.
It's real life.
This is not fiction.
It's real life.
It's not fiction. Brandon Tatum, do you agree?
Yeah, I think that this is very interesting.
You know, as this series is going on, I'm becoming more and more of a believer because it's not just the fact that they seem to manipulate the film to create a testimony that wasn't accurate.
It's not just that they did it, it's why are they doing this in the film?
What are they trying to do to manipulate our psyche when, if this testimony was consistent with what they originally presented, then why do they have to doctor it?
And so it's clear to me that they're trying to frame this situation as if this officer is somehow nervous and giving a false testimony and that the defense attorneys are literally eating him alive, when in fact that is not the case.
And it changed a lot for me.
I mean, just watching it and seeing that makes me realize that this is a lot different than what I perceived when I first watched Making the Murderer.
Yeah, you know, I said this last week, but when I met Coburn, I just felt so bad for him.
He just seems like a really nice guy.
You know what I mean? He gave me that, like, small-town attitude, and you just can imagine that these documentary makers set out, and they needed to have a bad guy.
And they really went out and you really see it in this episode to go so far as to keep using wherever he looks
nervous To find moments where he's doing nervous movements and to
put it after questions are asked even though that wasn't how he responded to it
Why do that if your intentions were pure if you really thought that Stephen Avery was framed by the police?
You don't have to do that. That's gonna come across.
Anyways, you're gonna be seeing this guy He is going to actually be nervous
He's not gonna be bored as we actually saw but to see that last piece where they quite literally
Edited his testimony so people watching that believe that he said yes to a question that he didn't even answer
Where Ken Kratz actually said objection and the judge upheld that objection and said yes the way that you question that
isn't wrong And then they ask him the exact opposite question.
I mean, there is no justification for that.
That is utterly unethical.
And I cannot believe that he lost this lawsuit.
I mean, I guess he lost a lawsuit against Netflix and documentary makers because he's a public figure.
Well, it's a lot of range and flexibility on creativity.
Maybe they have a clause in there where they are not displaying this as actual real-time interviews, and so they have the flexibility to kind of doctor it the way they want to because they're not portraying it as if this is a live or actual footage and that the responses are actual live footage responses.
And I think that what happens here is that it draws a big confusion for people that are watching it at home.
Given the fact that if he's testifying and he's nervous and he's answering questions a certain way, people would be confused why the jurors ended up convicting Stephen Avery at the end of this.
And I think that's the problem here.
If you actually saw his testimony and his responses, you would probably see a confident man that answered questions that would lead a jury to saying, okay, this guy is genuine, his testimony is true, and this guy probably did the crime.
And so when you manipulate testimony or you manipulate the filming of it, That's why people are questioning how could this guy be convicted if this officer is so frail and nervous about answering simple questions.
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And we're talking about here just the psychology of the filmmakers and why they did certain things.
And I want to switch gears here and talk about the psychology of Stephen Avery.
Last week we were kind of talking about just criminals in general.
You know, sometimes with crimes you go, how could they possibly think they were going to get away with this, right?
And we kind of said, well, a lot of criminality tends to happen from people that are low IQ,
who believe that they can clean up something very quickly, or that somehow they're not
going to get caught when they do something in broad daylight.
You know, whatever the circumstance may be, we see this often.
The Stephen Avery moving target, in terms of the stories that he told police, is something
that has really fascinated me throughout this series.
It fascinates me only because it's like, how could people still believe him when he just
kept changing his story, particularly as we showed in this episode, as it pertains to
the burn pit.
Not exactly something you would forget, whether or not, if you set a barrel on fire at night,
I'm not going to accept any conspiracy theories here.
You would remember it. Stephen Avery didn't remember it until other people remembered it, and then he kind of sort of remembered it.
But let's go back and see Stephen Avery, who I refer to as the magician that believes his own magic.
Take a listen. The idea of the burning barrels not burning or not having burned.
You guys burn your garden? Oh yeah, there's burning barrels.
Where at? I wasn't familiar with the area at all down in Manitowoc, so I went through with him drawing out diagrams, you know, where his sister Barb's house was, where his house was.
And then I believe we got information that possibly some dogs on the scene in Manitowoc had alerted on some burn barrels.
My sister's got some over here.
Over here? And he pointed that there were like three or four burning barrels behind his sister's house.
Three or four? Yeah, somewhere in there.
She has kids. And a lot of garbage.
Yeah. I asked him about his own burning barrel.
Oh yeah, I've got one right here.
And that's where he drew an X on that too.
I think I got one out here.
You got one out front? Yeah. Where, right here?
Yeah, someplace in there, yeah.
When's the last time you burned? Two weeks ago.
Okay. What did you burn?
Just regular garbage? Just garbage.
He gave me an answer that he hasn't burned anything in a couple weeks.
Tell the jury what you remember about that burned barrel at about 5.20 p.m.
on the 31st of October.
When me and Earl had pulled up on the golf cart, we had stopped in between the house and the garage, and the smoke from the burn barrel was blowing right in my face, so I had told Earl to move ahead.
Earl and Robert Fabian were driving past Stephen's house in a golf cart, and Fabian testified that he witnessed smoke that smelled like plastic coming from Stephen Avery's burn barrel.
It was kind of a heavier smoke, and it smelled like plastic.
It didn't smell like regular garbage.
Bob was complaining to me.
I stopped by the burning barrel by Steve's house.
I don't remember that part, but, you know, Bobby's got no reason to lie.
And Steve says, well, I never had a fire in the burning barrel.
I think Jody was the last one to burn it in my garbage barrel.
Obviously, as a result of the investigation, we learned that that was not true.
On the day in question, October 31st, we had witnesses that saw him burn in his burn barrel.
Okay, I've seen Steven walk in this way, and he threw the plastic bag into there, the burning barrel.
You see that it was burning in there?
Yes. And, of course, we had the evidence that was found in his burn barrel.
I came across a burning barrel which was in my section of searching.
There's a like a tire rim on the top of it covering it and so they take and they remove that and they look in there and in amongst the ashes and stuff they see what they believe to be the remnants of a cell phone.
One of the most compelling pieces of evidence that making a murderer conveniently left out was definitely Teresa's electronics which were found in Avery's burn barrel.
I saw A lot of ashes and I saw a lot of burnt, melted plastic parts.
It appeared to be parts of a cell phone that were actually melted inside the burning barrel.
That would have been almost impossible for them to explain because Avery was seen burning something in that burn barrel the night Teresa disappeared.
And lo and behold, Teresa's burned cell phone, PDA, and camera are all found in that burn barrel.
This is incredible. So we've got Candy, we've got Blaine Dassey, Earl Avery, Bob Fabian, all of these people who saw the burning fire on the night that Teresa went missing, October 31st, right?
Then you have Stephen Avery gets questioned.
At first, he says that he hasn't burned anything in two weeks.
And then suddenly his memory kind of comes back, and we see once Brendan Dassey kind of places him there, which will be in a Suddenly he remembers that, oh yeah, he did burn some stuff.
He just burned some garbage. His story keeps changing.
How are people trying to make sense of the police officers, if you're so following the conspiracy theory, the police officers planting her electronics in his burn barrel on the night that he also burned something in that barrel?
How slick are these officers? Right.
They would have to be magicians or they know how to transport, teleport in time or something like that.
But, you know, it's clear when you have evidence of impartial witnesses, these people are impartial.
They do not live with Stephen Avery.
They don't have a conflict of interest in this to say something that could get him sent
to prison, right?
If they were lying about the barrel that's advantageous for Stephen Avery, that would
make more sense.
You wouldn't think these people would say something that could get him in trouble.
This is his family.
Yeah, this is his family.
And so when you have family members coming out and so many different people that live
right around each other.
It's impossible to miss this burn barrel situation.
Because if you believe in a conspiracy that police officers were putting material in the burn barrel and burning it through the night when nobody was watching, you have to be lying to yourself.
If something is burning a barrel, I'm sure all the neighbors and everybody can smell it, they can see it, they can hear it.
And you don't just, you know, burn something in a burned barrel without taking the proper
precautions.
You can burn something in a barrel and set your whole house on fire.
So burning in a barrel is an entire process that takes more than just somebody creeping
through the night.
So I don't think that's a good theory to believe that police officers really had something
to do with that.
It seems as if Stephen Avery actually burned something and happened to be the young lady's
materials in there.
And that's damning evidence.
Right. Absolutely. And what people don't understand, and again, because I've walked this lot and I understand what the setup is and things may have changed in terms of how the layouts were, but as you see, they all are very close to each other in these trailers.
And the cars are to the far left of it, depending on which way you're looking at it.
And then they all are very close in these trailers, so it is just entirely unlikely.
The reason why they all saw Stephen Avery burning that night would be the same reason
that they would have all seen it if the police officers were the ones that were burning something
there.
They would have said, I saw a man that I didn't recognize.
And he walked up and he dropped something into the barrel.
I saw a person that I didn't recognize.
The idea that they all saw Stephen do this, but somehow, incredibly, these police officers
were magicians and were able to get this stuff in there, her electronics, which by the way,
leads us to the question, why on earth did the documentary filmmakers decide to leave
out a most crucial fact that Teresa's electronics were found in this burn barrel?
Make it make sense for me.
Give me the best conspiracy theory as to why they thought this not that important for viewers to know, even though they really were invested in just trying to tell the truth.
Right, because they need you at the end of this documentary to question the legitimacy of the investigation.
And this becomes more compelling if you can imagine that there's a body in this burn pit and that could possibly have been manipulated.
But then when you start adding in these other factors, witness testimony, eyewitness testimony, and electronics burning in a barrel at his property, then it kind of throws out that synopsis of the potential involvement with police In the conspiracy of planting evidence, it's almost impossible.
It is, I would think, impossible for them to go that far to plant that evidence.
Maybe the burn pit. Maybe somehow they had a charge of her body and they dumped it in the pit and ran off in the night.
But to burn something in the barrel, like I said, is a process that you just can't sneak and do.
So they wanted it to be sexy.
They needed to leave out proper things so they could still leave you going to the next episode, the next episode, the next episode.
And that's the only explanation I can have for their motive behind doing that is to lead you into this idea that he could potentially have been framed by police.
And I just can't see how people can defend Stephen Avery's outright lies and changing stories.
I just don't see how they can hear him saying one thing and then hear him saying the exact
opposite thing and it just will keep happening throughout the entire series.
And at this point now, you have to believe that not only the police officers were out
to get him because of this $36 million non-existent payment that they were going to have to pay
that was going to bankrupt them, not true, but also that the police strategically were
able to, what, brainwash the family into pretending to see Stephen carrying bags over into the
burn pit that night and starting this huge fire and brainwash people to not see them,
like really on some magician stuff and just, you don't see anything, don't worry, you don't
I mean, they've got like the Harry Potter invisibility cloak on and they're going in there and they're dropping evidence.
None of that obviously makes any sense, but it's incredible what the human mind will do when it wants to believe in a conspiracy theory.
It's called confirmation bias.
If you have already set your mindset that he's innocent because you've gotten emotionally involved and obviously him getting convicted the first time and you kind of see some of the layout of him potentially being victimized again, you use confirmation bias no matter what he says.
And to your point, they not only have to be strategic enough to convince everybody else to follow the law, they have to convince Stephen Avery to follow his own law because he's the one that was inconsistent in his statements.
He's the one that's saying he burned today, he didn't burn yesterday.
So they would have to essentially be convincing him to tell a lie to get himself in trouble.
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Well, this gets to the next point because they have all the leeway, all of the runway provided for Stephen Avery.
None for the police officers.
Absolutely none. And of course, a huge piece was the key piece.
And how it was discovered in Stephen Avery's trailer.
And this is one of those moments where you're either going to believe the police in terms of how it happened or you're not going to believe them.
And going back to that confirmation bias, I guess most viewers just did not want to believe that the police just got lucky.
So let's take a look at how all of that unfolded.
When I first watched the episode where they highlighted the key, how could I not think the key was planted?
If this key was planted, this has got to be the dumbest jury I've ever seen in my life.
The bookshelf was pulled away, turned, searched, and it was reasonable that while it was turned away, it fell into that area.
The whole story about the cabinet is, to me, on a very basic level, unbelievable.
The key was absolutely the biggest piece of evidence that viewers to this day believe was planted.
I'll be the first to admit I wasn't any too gentle.
As we were, you know, getting exasperated, I handled it rather roughly, twisting it, shaking it, pulling it.
No one gets exacerbated and has to do this rocking and rolling of a cabinet that they've already strip searched, they've already taken the contents out.
Lieutenant Lenk and Sergeant Colburn were just in Avery's bedroom the prior Saturday night and they didn't see the key in that cabinet.
You didn't see a blue lanyard and a black clasp and the Toyota key in the back of that bookcase, did you?
No, sir, I did not. They were also in Avery's trailer on other occasions and still somehow missed it.
The key therefore became this huge conspiracy theory.
This unbelievable story of this key is tucked in behind and it pops out in a way and they've searched the bedroom six times before it.
There were seven searches of this trailer and this key wasn't there.
Certainly suspicious. Who would watch that and not think this man was framed?
So you're in the house on November 5, November 6, November 7, November 8.
True? Yes, sir.
The defense just has this narrative, well, this might have happened.
This could have happened.
Look, James Lenk was there, after all.
As it turns out, there's also more to the key story as well.
There weren't, in fact, seven searches of that trailer.
There had been seven entries into that trailer.
Every time that we went into Stephen Avery's residence after Saturday, it was a specific seizure that we were instructed to do.
Go in there, do this, or seize that, and then get out of there.
And that's what we did.
So I want you to explain what Coburn is saying here, because this is something that I just, again, people have a non-expert problem.
That's something that Scott Adams always says.
The non-expert problem is you're not a police officer, so you don't understand things.
So when someone says that you were on the property seven times, our mind goes, okay, well, if you were inside of this guy's trailer seven times and you're searching for everything, how did you not see this key?
What he's saying is, no, that's not exactly what it means.
Us having made three specific entries, what does it mean as a police officer?
Right, so when you get a search warrant, and people, like you say, the movies portray that when you get a search warrant, you kick in the door, you tear people's house apart, you flip over the table, going in their underwear drawer, looking in the toilet bowl.
That's not the way real search warrants work.
Yeah, I know, right?
That'll be great for police.
They'll probably find more stuff.
But the search warrant is you have to write an affidavit and explain to a judge exactly what you're going to get, where you're going to get it at, and why.
If you cannot explain that if you're looking for a gun, you can't just look everywhere.
You have to look to where you believe the gun to be.
And when you get that specific execution of a warrant, You go into the residence.
You go to that specific place.
You have to document it. You have to track it.
You have to have chain of custody.
All of those things specifically for that item.
You can't go with anything else unless you see something in plain sight, which means if you saw a dead body over here, you're not going to just walk away because that's not what you intended to get.
So, it makes a lot of sense that maybe the public misinterpreted entries with specific
searches and going in to get specific things could lead them to not find a key if they're
not even in that area to extract.
So I think like the gentleman in the beginning of the clip said, they did a strip search.
First of all, there's no such thing as a strip search.
You can't strip search a cabinet.
So it's the misnomer or misconception of what police officers actually do during warrants.
And I think that explanation in the clip that was just played gave more of an understanding
of it's not that they were sweeping through the same area, same area.
All of a sudden there's a key.
It's like they're going here to get this and they leave.
They go here to get this and they leave.
And then eventually they get to the spot where they end up discovering the key.
And then they describe this later on in this particular episode.
You know, first when they went there, they went there to seize the guns.
They went back. They went to seize the vacuum cleaners, you know, potentially hoping that they could find some DNA evidence.
Maybe he did some cleanup. When they went back the third time, they went to seize his porn.
And the porn magazines were in a particular cabinet.
And while they had been there before, they saw no key next to this cabinet.
But when they went to grab pornography out of this cabinet and then put some of the other stuff there that wasn't actually pornography back in, suddenly the key falls out.
Right? And the officers say, none of us saw it before.
It wasn't there before.
They have a theory, obviously, that it fell out of the back.
And you can even see that in this episode, that there is a crack in the back.
And it's very likely that it somehow fell out of this bookcase.
It makes sense to me.
The way that I theorize this very simply is he wanted time.
He ran out of time obviously because Teresa was reported missing very quickly. It was just really a couple of days
He wanted to get rid of her car Of course, she's not going to leave the car on the property
If you murder someone quickly, you've now got a lot of evidence you have to deal with you've got to deal with a
body You know, this is what gets into the burn pit going back
and forth on that first night You have to hide her car. Where are you going to put her
car? What are you gonna do with her car?
You've got a car crusher You need to prep the car to be crushed.
Stephen Avery didn't have time. He just simply ran out of time.
And I believe that after hiding her car, he was going to actually go back and try to crush it.
That's why he took her key with him.
And I think that that's exactly what he was going to do, but he just ran out of time.
Now, that's one theory that I personally have.
You never know what somebody's doing in the moment after they kill someone.
You can only imagine their adrenaline.
All the things that can be happening.
But people instead want to believe that the police...
Got into his trailer and dropped the key, and I just don't see what the upside would have been for the police officers to do that.
Right, and you have to look at this.
If a person wants to get to the bottom of the facts, you have to be impartial.
You have to examine both sides.
You can't just say, well, it doesn't make sense, so they must have planted the key.
Because you've got to think through how do you plant a key?
Who had the key?
Where did they get the key from?
What is it in his pocket? Did anybody else see him with the key?
When did he actually take the key from his possession and put it on the ground?
These things you have to think through as well.
Again, not a single eyewitness seeing the police officers go into Stephen Avery's trailer is another thing.
How lucky would these police officers have to have been to do all of this?
And it's possible that he did the scenario that you explained.
When you explained it to me before we came out here, we spoke about it.
And it made a lot of sense to me, and I hadn't thought about it before, but that could be a plausible scenario.
This guy hide the key in the porn, right?
In the back corner of a cabinet that nobody's going to look for.
And he knows his stash spot, so he can go back and grab that and go do what he needs to do with the key.
That's very possible. And with them shuffling things around and it potentially falling out the back of the cabinet is, you know, in a sense where if a person is not, you know, trying to experience confirmation bias on their own and you are saying, this is a miracle.
Things like this happen a lot in investigations.
There's evidence that pop up, you know, it's almost like God intervened and We're good to go.
I don't think it moved the jury because I think that it's very plausible that somebody could have planted it.
They can't rule it out. And it's very plausible that it fell out the cabinet.
They can't rule that out.
So I think this ended up being a moot point.
But you still have to be able to examine both.
I think the original documentary did not give room for the possibility that Stephen Avery could have hidden that thing in the cabinet.
And the way the search worked, it could have been revealed that way.
Yeah, I think the car was the last thing on his mind.
I think he had a body that he had to deal with first, and that is not an easy process, you know?
Having to deal with the body, having to deal with her personal belongings, having to deal with the car.
I mean, that's a lot to deal with in just a couple of days.
And also having to deal with all of that when your family is around and they don't know that you killed this girl, right?
It's not like you went and sat down all of the family members and said, hey, gotta let you know I just killed a girl.
I'm gonna need your help. We're gonna have to hide the body.
Only one person knew about that, and that person was Brendan Dassey.
We're not gonna talk about Brendan Dassey just now.
I've been very much trying to bite my tongue on this, and every single time we do an episode, I almost give way too many spoilers.
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Okay, the last thing I want to get to before we run out of time is a big question that people had, which is why wasn't Teresa's DNA found on the RAV4 key?
So let's take a listen.
Were you able to develop a profile from the swabbing of item C, the key to a Teresa Hallbox car?
Yes. Yes. Ultimately, it was tested for DNA and Stephen's DNA was on that key.
You did not find any DNA of Theresa Halbach on that key, did you?
That's correct. A car key that presumably she handled and used daily, right?
Correct. None of her DNA was on that key, yet they have tons of DNA of Stephen on a key.
There's something wrong there.
The only DNA found on that key was Stephen Avery's.
That is patently ridiculous.
They made a big deal in making a murder that only his DNA was on the key.
But if you research touch DNA, oftentimes the only person's DNA who was recoverable was the last person to handle the key.
The last person is going to be the DNA that you pick up.
If you don't shed a lot of DNA, then you may not find any at all.
Right, and what you found on this key was not a lot of DNA, right?
Correct. If we have person number one who is the owner of the key, person number two who does not own the key, but at some point actively bleeds on the key, wipes the bleed off the key, It's not entirely unexpected that you would find the DNA profile of the person who wiped the blood off the key.
If you bleed on the key, now you are supplying a large quantity of your own DNA. And even if the other person's DNA is there, you may mask them because now you have actual bodily fluids rather than stray skin cells.
If you then wiped it off, Now you're physically removing potentially all the DNA that's present, the first person and the second person.
And if the second person had possession of that key for four days, one would expect that you're most likely going to find the profile of the person who last possessed the key.
And it would not be unusual at all to find no other DNA profile on that key, would it?
No, that would be...
Not unusual. More contact, more possibility for DNA being deposited.
The key itself was middling in evidential value.
The idea that they had to plant the key to tie Avery to the RAV when his blood was in the RAV4 made no sense.
They didn't need this key.
Such an important ending there that they just didn't need the key.
They found Stephen Avery's DNA in her car, so why would they plant it?
It seems completely insignificant.
But getting back to that non-expert problem, right?
People not knowing how touch DNA works, not realizing that, I'm dealing with this pen right now.
So as I pass it to you as the last person who touches this pen, suddenly it's going to be your DNA. And I bet Stephen Avery is going to be more DNA than ever because you're dealing with someone who just raped, shot, stabbed, you know, killed somebody.
Imagine the amount of sweat.
I mean, just so much stuff that is happening, plus his adrenaline.
By the time he's got that key, her DNA, her last touch is going to be completely wiped clear of that.
But people don't think that way because we're not experts.
Right, and that's why it's invaluable to actually look at the court proceedings.
If something sounds too juicy, you need to do an evaluation into it, right?
If it was that simple that no other DNA is on the key and there's no explanation for it, then the jurors probably wouldn't have convicted him.
That would have been enough to have reasonable doubt.
But I've seen this play out in so many different cases.
That's why it's invaluable for you to watch the trial because you have the prosecution is going to put their witnesses and they get cross-examined.
Then the defense is going to present a witness, an expert, and then they will get cross-examined.
And so in cross-examination and maybe even direct, you see that the man gave a really reasonable response to how DNA could be left behind by the second person versus the first person.
It's very easy to think of that because he takes the, you know, he's an idiot, clearly.
That's why he's in jail.
Let's start there. We don't catch the smart ones.
He has this key in his possession.
He probably attempted to wipe the key off because he was thinking about wiping off her DNA. And in the midst of doing that, without having gloves on, he probably then, after wiping the key off, reintroduced his DNA to hide the key.
Without having any gloves.
So therefore, he probably was effective in wiping her DNA clean from the key, but he was too dumb to realize that if he touch it again after he's wiped it without proper gloves or protection, he's now gonna have his DNA as the final DNA on the key.
That's totally plausible when it comes to the investigation and when it comes to the testimony in trial.
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I want to go back to you saying that Stephen Avery is an idiot and not having gloves on and things of that nature because I don't think people realize this.
And as we unpack more into his history, which is somehow going to get even more disgusting, one of the things that I've realized is that he has suffered from sex addiction his entire life.
And this is evidenced by the pornography that they keep finding that was found into his home, but the pornography that his wife, rather Candy Avery, spoke about, all of these sort of sexually deviant things that he was involved in.
And I think that when you're dealing with somebody that has sex addiction, people haven't
thought about the impulse that he has, you know?
He was just acting in this sex impulse that entire day.
I don't even know that he planned to kill her when she arrived.
I honestly believe that he just was very upset that she had turned him down.
He had tried.
He's just like, I want that, and I want to have that right now.
And everything else he's thinking about in the aftershock of it.
Oh, now I've got to deal with this car.
Oh, now I've got to deal with this body.
Oh, now I've got to clean up this garage.
And that's a lot to handle, as I said earlier, in 48 hours.
But people need to realize we are not dealing with someone who is clever.
He didn't even bother to put gloves on.
He didn't think about him getting caught.
And one of the most compelling things to me is how much he believes in himself, that he
could just talk his way out of this.
He was talking to the press the entire time.
As he was actively changing his story, he was picking up the phone and giving quotes to reporters, already citing the narrative that he's being framed from the very beginning because he thought to himself, I can convince people that I'm a victim because there's double jeopardy here.
I've already been in prison for something that I didn't do, so now the public will be on my side.
And he was right. Right.
And people, they sometimes give criminals too much credit.
It's a lot to think about.
You know, hindsight is 20-20.
If he could go back and redo this, he probably would have got rid of the key, right?
He probably wouldn't have had his DNA on there.
He would have wiped off blood from the RAF. He probably would have, you know, take the decals off the RAF. Because the average person probably don't know what a RAF 4 looked like.
But when you see RAF 4 on the back, you're like, that's the car.
It's in the midst of all these new cars.
He probably would've done things differently, but the thing is, is that in the heat of the moment, somebody who has a very low IQ, somebody who's very compulsive, like running his cousin or whatever family member she was to him off of the road and pulling the gun on her because he was upset with what she may have been saying In the community about him that was disparaging.
His compulsion to throw the cat onto the fire.
His compulsion to drag his dog down the street because he was mad they ran away.
It appears that this gentleman is low IQ and he also have these crazy senses of compulsion.
Even the letters that he wrote his wife before she left him that he was gonna kill her.
And that he was going to mutilate her body.
It seems like a fit of rage and a compulsion where he's not thinking it through.
And so it could be very well possible that he saw the woman, she turned him down and he said, I'm not taking no for answer.
He blew up on her.
He raped her. And now what are you going to do with a raped woman?
You're going to go to prison if she tell anybody.
And he ended up potentially getting Brandon Dassey involved and he had to get rid of the body.
But he's not smart enough to understand forensic evidence.
He's not smart enough to understand DNA evidence and DNA from touch DNA and all of that other stuff.
He's not intelligent enough to know that, which is probably how he ended up getting caught.
That's exactly right. But he is dumb enough to believe that he was going to get away with it.
Yeah. Which brings us to a little teaser for you guys for Episode 7.
Get ready. Take a look.
Coming up on Convicting a Murderer.
The police did not have Brendan Dassey on their radar at all.
Kayla brings up that they should talk to her cousin Brendan.
They initially went down to that high school because they were worried about him because his cousin made some comments about him losing weight.
She mentioned things like staring off into space and weight loss.
She estimated to be about 40 pounds.
They thought that maybe he had seen something and he was having trouble dealing with what he had witnessed.
You should have said to them, I want my mom in there.
Yeah. You definitely can see how someone like him was easily manipulated.
I really feel sorry for Brendan, getting roped into some scheme that Steven decided he was going to come up with.
We did not expect what he was telling us.
Yes, you guys, Brendan Dassey time.
And I'm saying this with excitement because it is just going to blow people's minds.
Just everything that you thought, you're going to be like, wow, wow, wow.
There's just no way you're going to make it through these next two episodes and still be a person that believes in Stephen Avery or believes that Brendan Dassey was manipulated.
Again, I'm getting ahead of myself, but this is the big one.
This will be huge, because I'm still not convinced that they gave a fair investigation to Brendan Dassey.
He seems to be even of a low IQ than Stephen Avery, and he potentially could have gotten manipulated.
So at this point, I cannot wait to hear what you have about Brendan Dassey.
I'm like, how did they do that right?
I feel like the kid could have been manipulated, and I don't think he may have been a part of this.
I don't know. But you say that you got some compelling evidence with Brendan Dassey.
That's going to change a lot for me.
The police, in my opinion, did absolutely everything right.
Everything right. And what you were shown, you're just going to be like, I can't even believe he's a documentary filmmaker.
I don't understand how they have not been sued a million times.
And I'm going to say, Brendan Dassey was manipulated, but it's not by who you originally thought.
Mm-hmm. You guys, thank you so much for joining us today.
As a reminder, the first episode of Convicting a Murderer is free on X. It's also free on YouTube.
And the second episode is free on Daily Wire.
Plus, if you need to know where to start, a new episode will drop every single Thursday.
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