"Should Women Be Pastors?" and Other Questions On the State of the Church
Why are "conservative" religious leaders so afraid to speak against the biggest drivers of sin in modern life? What share of churches are "true" churches? Why do some Christians want to be "nicer than God?" And by the way, should women be pastors in Christian churches? Allie Beth Stuckey has become one of the most important voices in the modern American church. At YWLS, Charlie and Allie talk about the state of the church, as well as parenting, Charlie's toughest debate ever, his favorite health wisdom, and more. Watch every episode ad-free on members.charliekirk.com! Get new merch at charliekirkstore.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here, live from the Bitcoin.com studio.
Allie B. Stuckey and I, we discussed the state of the church, whether or not women should be pastors.
Ooh, you're going to want to listen to this.
And more.
Allie B. Stuckey is one of my favorite voices in the Christian space, especially from a female perspective.
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I drink coffee with no caffeine.
So you drink decaf coffee with almond milk?
No, not even decaf.
Like purified coffee.
I don't know what this is.
This is like literally they like cleanse the beans.
There's no caffeine.
Okay, so this is for the why?
Well, caffeine, like it's a crazy thing.
I used to drink so much caffeine and I would get like very, very jittery.
Yeah.
So then I just cut it all off.
But I love the taste of coffee.
Okay, that's what I was going to ask.
You just like the taste of it.
And it's good for your antioxidants too.
Okay.
Wow.
It works for me.
Respect.
No caffeine.
Ever.
Not even Diet Coke.
No, but like, I literally, no Diet Coke ever.
Yeah.
Diet Coke's not good for you.
I like tea, though.
Does the president know that you know this?
I have been impressed by his Diet Coke consumption.
Okay.
It's amazing.
Wow.
It makes him younger.
Yeah, I guess so.
There's got to be something in it.
There's something.
The youth elixir.
How are your kids?
They're all good.
Gosh, they grow so fast.
Have you realized that?
You don't do faces on social, right?
No, but I don't do anything on social.
Nor do we.
Do you do ages?
Not even names.
Ages?
People know ages because they've been following me since.
Yes.
I got that from you just, by the way.
Oh, really?
So tell you, why do you do that?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, there's so many weirdos and there are so many things nowadays that you can do with a child's image, that you can do with information about a child.
And I just wanted as little info about them in the world as possible.
So people know I have three girls.
They know about their ages and that's it.
Three girls.
Amazing.
I know.
It's super fun.
Yeah, so we have a girl and a boy.
Yes.
And it's no one's business who their names are, what their names are, right?
Yeah.
Or their faces.
Yeah.
Can you already tell the difference between little boys and little girls?
Obviously, we already knew, but just in men.
No, I mean, it's like, it's so funny.
I said to Erica the other day, I said, anybody who does not believe in male-female differences obviously has not been a parent.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just, these are the childless clinicians that are running the academy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where my son, he gravitates towards destruction.
Yes.
And trying to get himself injured.
And getting hurt.
Yes.
Yeah, no, no.
The amount, the incident rate of pediatrician calls of son versus daughter.
It's like 10 to 1. And he's only held.
No, he's just turned 1. Oh, yes.
And he's an early walker at 10 months.
Okay.
And he will find a baseball bat and try to, like, terrorize his sister.
Already.
I was like, I didn't teach him that, right?
Yeah.
It's just instinct.
But other things, he's very gravitated towards balls.
Yeah.
He cannot sit, like, my daughter will sit still in color, you know, with a lot of dexterity, right?
Read a book.
Not with him.
It's constant movement.
Constant activity.
Constant stimulation.
And this is nature.
This is how God made them.
Yeah.
It's not nurture.
so I can see I can see the contrast whenever my nephews I'm like There's so much happening and I forget when I have my three little girls who love princesses and drawing and imagining things and building, you know, forts that turn into homes and everything turns into a baby.
Everything.
It can be a fork.
It can be a bottle.
Everything is a baby.
I forget that.
I love boys and maybe one day that we'll have a son too.
But yeah, just so different.
We're blessed with both.
And the contrast is beautiful.
I mean, look, if we had...
two girls, it'd be amazing to like, whatever the Lord, you know, uh, gives us is just, you know, But it's really remarkable to see how my daughter, being the older, already has maternal instincts towards her brother.
Takes care of him.
Exactly.
And looks after him.
So sweet.
Right?
And seeing siblings love each other, even if they do beat each other up one second, the next second, they're best friends.
That's really fun.
I think it's the closest thing we can see towards how God is pleased when we get along.
Yeah.
That's a really good point.
The closest thing that we can get to.
Because we don't want to see our kids fight.
I think it's similar to how God looks at us when we're fighting.
I mean, parenting just teaches you so much about how God sees you and what He wants for you.
And that's just another reason why people should have more kids because it aids your sanctification so much.
Talk more about that.
Well, it aids your sanctification in the same way that marriage does in that you are now sharing your interests and your priorities with another person.
You are now learning how to get along with other sinners who have their own desires and their own struggles and the things that they have to sacrifice.
And so it just causes you to move outside of yourself.
It causes you and really demands that you deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Christ.
And just the energy...
You need a lot of it.
And it's got to come from the Holy Spirit or else you're going to be overstimulated by the end of the day.
I will just say this.
Now being caffeine abstinent, it's actually very overrated.
Is Erica caffeine abstinent too?
She'll have a little bit of English breakfast tea.
Oh yeah, that's nothing.
But it doesn't give you energy.
It just suppresses your production of a denizen.
Yeah.
It doesn't give you...
This is interesting.
I have a whole health theory on this and Maha can disagree.
But do you know the one thing that does give you energy?
Hydration.
Oh.
If you drink a ton of water, No, no, no.
I'm just saying I wish we would talk about it more.
Oh, yeah.
I just think there's a lot on vaccines and raw milk and heavy metals.
But there's a couple...
I haven't heard this.
My whole health...
Yeah.
You don't need, like, to buy a cold plunge.
You know, like, that stuff's fine.
The two superpowers that I have is I'm big on sleep and big on drinking water.
Wow.
Pretty simple, right?
Yeah.
And I think sleep is, like, the superpower that we don't have.
Okay.
I'm curious.
How do you prioritize sleep with your travel schedule and everything you have to do?
It's very hard.
First of all, Erica's a champ.
She's the one that gets up at night.
Yeah.
Right?
She just lets me sleep.
No alcohol helps a lot with sleep, actually.
And so that's really important.
But also, I'm really hawkish about turning off the phone at a certain time because then you just start melatonin production.
And if you want to fall asleep and you make it a priority, you could do it.
And so it's like, I just go to bed early.
I don't watch evening TV at all.
I go to bed at like 9. And then, okay, if you wake up at 5.30, you're rested enough.
Yeah.
Right?
So you just shut it off.
Shut it off.
And then the other key is I started doing this a while ago and it's worked.
It's an eye mask.
Oh, really?
I've tried that.
If you get used to the sensation, it's so good because if you learn the science of it, darkness makes your body produce melatonin.
Yeah.
So you are like, you are, you're suffocating your eyes in darkness that the melatonin rate that you're producing is like through the roof.
Okay.
I didn't know that either.
Learning so much from Maha Charlie.
Maha, yeah, that's right.
And again, as Erica deserves all the credit because, and look, you know what it's like, you know, raising kids, have to produce content, travel.
Yeah.
I don't do well in three hours of sleep.
That's not.
No, I don't know very many people that do.
I guess some people do.
The president.
Yeah, I guess.
Does he only get three hours, you think?
He gets three to four hours.
And I can say that from firsthand experience and also his sons and Ivanka's told me.
And one day we will know.
We will test the golden hair, which is that there is a well-known documented genetic mutation.
Of, like, one in 100,000 people that just don't need more than, like, an hour and a half of sleep.
Yeah.
Well, he doesn't seem like he does.
I think he has that.
Like, it exists.
It's real.
Because sleep actually is just the brain cleaning itself.
Yeah.
There's, like, there's some physical, you know, benefits, but, like, some brains just don't need it.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's amazing.
I guess that's why.
Yeah, not me either.
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I hear from young ladies on campus all the time, Charlie, I don't want to get married because I want to prioritize my sleep.
I don't have kids, and I'm the most important thing in the world.
And so you're like one of the most important, I have to compliment you, female voices out there in Christianity.
I know how to speak to young men, sort of young women, not really, but like how do I even respond to the me, me, me selfish narcissism that I encounter so much?
I think that I would probably ask that person, are you happy?
Because most people who say, I prioritize me, I want to put myself first, I want to do what feels good, those people typically aren't happy.
Those people typically really struggle with deep depression and anxiety and discontentment and poor relationships and toxic friendships and all of these problems, but they're constantly being fed a message that the problem isn't you, the problem is everything else.
And once you get rid of all of these toxic factors in your life and you truly find yourself and discover yourself, You'll fill yourself and put yourself first.
Then you'll kind of be liberated from your depression and anxiety.
But as I've said a lot, the self can't be both the problem and the solution.
You're trying to solve the problem that you're finding inside yourself with yourself, and that's illogical, and it's ineffective.
It never works.
So that's probably where I would start, just talking to them about how they feel, which every girl likes to talk about that.
That is true.
I'm writing this down.
That's really smart.
The self can't be both the problem and the solution.
Yes.
So we both know what the solution is.
The solution is the cross.
The solution is Christ.
And so I find this manifested to the surface most quickly on the abortion argument.
Because if I'm debating a man on abortion, it's actually very different.
He'll try to get me on reason or scientific technicality, of which there is none.
Yeah.
But a young lady is, how dare you tell me that I am in charge of my own dominion and I feel as if I should be?
It's a very different type of line.
And so is that really the root of why America's embraced abortion so much?
And I argue that the God of self has two highest values, and those two high values are autonomy and authenticity.
Now, autonomy and authenticity, just like empathy, and we can get into this, can be good values when they are submitted to absolute truth.
But when they're not, when they are your absolute values, they're justifications for sin.
So autonomy becomes a justification for sin when you say, well, I control myself, I control my body, so much so that you're literally, Authenticity can become this bad value when you say, well, I want to be true to myself, so I'm going to allow my self-identity to trump physical reality or my biology.
And so those two main values that the God of self hoists up as supreme, authenticity and autonomy, are really used as justifications of all kinds of depravity.
Something you're really effective at, I don't know, I'm loud, I don't know how effective I am, is calling out the church and their failing of identifying this.
What is the state in your estimation of the modern American Christian?
No, you're really good at talking about this.
Loudly.
I don't know, effectively.
No, definitely effectively.
I mean, there are more people now that are effectively talking about it.
I'm sure you've talked about Megan Basham.
She's amazing.
We should pray for her.
I don't know how she's doing health-wise.
Yes, she just finished chemotherapy.
I hope it's a success.
Yes, she's starting to feel better and better.
Praise the Lord.
She's awesome.
Absolutely pray for her.
She's great.
And just the spiritual battle that she is waging as well.
I mean, she uncovers a lot of the funding behind these very insidious groups.
They hate Donald Trump.
They hate Republicans.
They think that the left is definitely more biblical than the right.
And so what these institutions are very sneakily doing, they're coming into the church and they're saying, Pastor, you're tired.
You're tired of the division.
You're tired of the stress of politics and the left-right division in your church.
Let us help you unify your congregants.
Let us walk you through how you can lead your congregation through the next election and these political issues.
But how they're doing that is by saying, well, abortion is nuanced, so don't talk about it.
Gender is really, you know, it can be offensive to the image bearers in your And you're a congregation, so don't say that gender is binary.
So they exist to try to make theologically conservative churches politically progressive, and I don't know how effective they are at doing that right now, but you could see how it'd be persuasive for the mushy middle.
Yeah, so there's three types of churches.
There's true churches, which is the type you and I go to and that we speak at.
There's trembling churches, those that are, like, always shaking like a leaf.
Then there's traitorous.
You and I both know the traitorous ones.
Gay pride flags are in a church.
The trembling is the majority, unfortunately.
Yes, totally.
Has it gotten better since COVID?
Because we're talking about it more.
Yeah, I think so.
I think if COVID happened- I think you're right.
I think 10% better?
Yes.
I think if COVID happened today, you would have fewer churches shut their doors.
I think that's right.
Because, I mean, you've got to have some people who are willing to be first, who are willing to say, you know what?
Y 'all are going to call me all these kinds of names.
I don't care what you call me.
I'm going to stand up because this is right.
That gives other people cover.
We shouldn't be the kind of people who are so cowardly that we need that cover, but we probably all have times in our lives when we have.
So, yes, now I think that churches are maybe a little bit bolder, but gosh, I still want more clarity from the pulpit.
Totally.
Especially about the issues that they call political but are really just primarily biblical.
I even think there's a place for pastors to talk about the biblical principles of immigration.
I don't have to talk about the news every Sunday.
But the Bible isn't silent on that subject.
It's actually very loud on it.
Yes.
Talks about it a lot.
And yes, it's not just loving the foreigner, which we should, but also about biblical boundaries and borders.
And there's two words for immigrant actually used in Hebrew.
I think it's like care and ver.
I could be wrong, but like there are two different words, those that assimilate and do not assimilate.
Yeah.
So I have a provocative question for you.
I know how you're going to answer, but you can talk about it more freely than I can.
Should women be pastors?
I don't think so.
No, I don't think that women should be pastors, and I don't think that they should preach from the pulpit on Sunday mornings.
Obviously, I don't believe that women shouldn't be Bible study leaders or that we shouldn't speak at all or that we shouldn't have podcasts.
I think there are lots of wonderful places for women to speak and to teach.
But it seems to me that when Paul says that women shouldn't teach, and he's talking about in the context of the local church, and then he goes all the way back to creation for his reasoning, he doesn't say, well, this is something that's happening in your life.
church culturally right now.
It's probably not happening later.
He says, actually, it's because you've sinned first and then Adam.
I don't know exactly what that means.
I don't know everything that he means there, but if he's going back to something that is still true today, it seems like the directive is still for today, too.
How is that your opinion received?
You know, even on the conservative side, it's not necessarily received well.
Although I do have friends, we realize this is not a salvation issue, but we do disagree on it.
But we'll get in our back and forth sometimes about that subject.
So it's mixed.
Yeah, it's mixed.
And of course, there are people on the left hand, but I don't even think about what their opinion is.
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Who is the greatest Bible teacher alive today?
Ooh, that's a great question.
I think I know what you're going to say.
Oh, yeah, I bet you know what I'm going to say.
I was going to say John MacArthur.
Yes, he's the man.
Yeah, I was going to say that, but I mean, there's a lot of good ones.
No, I know, but like he's a legend.
Yeah.
I mean, I could just listen to his sermons and yeah, there are a few people like that that I could listen to on repeat.
Yeah.
And so what, And it's important, right?
Because we should articulate, like, why is he a legend?
Yeah.
And how do we get more of this next generation to be in that mold?
Unafraid.
That's the thing I think of.
Unafraid.
Totally undeterred by culture at all.
Does not care one bit what you call him.
He wants to know, what does the Bible say?
And if the Bible says it, I'm going to say it, and I'm not going to nuance it or apologize for it.
Because most pastors, they would never say this, but a lot of Christians do think that they're nicer than God.
And so they think they can out love, out mercy, out compassion God by not saying what God says.
Well, God doesn't need to be- I'm a better person than God.
Oh, totally.
And John MacArthur knows that that's not true.
I also would use- I totally agree with that.
So I've bought- Erica jokes, we get these packages delivered to our house.
She said, enough, because I buy so many books, right?
I know.
So does my husband.
He buys so many books.
And I don't read them all.
And that's what he's- This is an important thing.
I say it often in my podcast, but people, they don't listen to everything, obviously.
It is important that your children are raised in a home where books are around.
Yes.
They are displayed proudly and openly.
And that at least they, even if they're like taking the books and they're throwing and they're drawing on them, the kinetic memory that the parents value learning is a very important thing.
I got this from Dennis Prager.
Yeah.
Which is that like my earliest memories, my parents would have books everywhere.
Yeah.
And it's important that at least it's established that, hey, this is something Yeah, that's so good.
I have these huge books of John.
I have a whole John MacArthur section.
You do?
I love that.
And when you read these commentaries, so whenever I ever read a Bible verse, I'm like, I don't get it.
I go to my John MacArthur commentary.
And I mean, I would say he is so deep.
In a way that most modern evangelical pastors are not, so studied.
Like, for example, there's a scripture that's very, very hard on its surface, which is like, you must hate your mother.
Yeah.
Like, it's very hard.
Read the John MacArthur single.
Okay, well, you must understand the word hate in the Hebrew context is to choose between two, but not to have scorn towards another.
Like, okay, it's like, wow, thank you for that.
Yeah.
And so, but then he goes into this like five-page explanation, right?
And do you think most modern evangelical, like skinny-jean-wearing pastors are doing deep study?
No, I think a lot of them are passing around each other's sermons.
The ChatGPT sermons.
Well, yeah, and I think that they are – not that we can't learn from other people, but I think a lot of sermons today are probably recycled.
Yeah.
And John MacArthur, also the interesting thing about him, for those who don't know, he's in Southern California.
It's not like he's in Kentucky.
He's not in the Bible Belt.
I mean, he's been warring against culture just by standing for what the Word of God says.
You know, have you ever watched his debates between him and Gavin Newsom?
Oh, I have to.
No, I haven't.
Oh, yeah.
On CNN, he used to go at it between Gavin Newsom.
Back when Gavin Newsom pretended to be like a devout Catholic, and he would say like, wait, don't you know what the Roman Catholic Church teaches on marriage?
And he's like, well, I, you know, how Gavin Newsom is.
You know exactly.
But they used to go at it.
And so, yeah, you should watch that.
John MacArthur, I know he's not well, but he's still, you know, he's still preaching.
He passed the COVID test.
Yeah, he did.
And so many guys did not.
Yep.
They stayed open.
Why is that?
And they defied Gavin.
Why is it?
I mean, I'm sure you think about this a lot.
Why is that so many pastors tend to not finish well?
That is a biblical...
Solomon didn't finish well.
Finishing well is very, very rare.
You know who comes to mind first in that?
I mean, especially when we're talking about COVID.
I just think of Andy Stanley and just the legacy of Charles Stanley, which stands so tall and is so amazing, and how he is compromised, especially on the COVID thing.
He said at Liberty Convocation in 2020, which he did virtually, maybe not in January, but that year he said, You know, it's funny.
He texted me because I was attacking him relentlessly.
We talked on the phone.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
And I did.
I agreed.
I was like, look, I'll lay off for a while.
And I did because I try to be a man of my word.
And he was basically like, hey, can you please stop talking about me?
And I was like, yeah, I guess.
Like, fine.
And, you know, at least my opinion is like I want to establish a dialogue.
If people want to talk, I never want to be closed off to that.
Yeah, I agree.
And I did promise him next time I was in Atlanta I want to sit down with him because I know that sounds like cheap.
I actually – I'm like infinitely curious how he says the stuff he says as a pastor.
Like, oh, the Old Testament, you know, we don't need that.
Unhitch.
Yeah.
And he's really compromised on the LGBTQ issue.
To me, that's the biggest one.
And I called him out on that and he's like, no, no, no, I'm not.
Yeah.
And it's like, okay, it's like, how is...
and he's never reached out to me.
I know.
Well, yeah.
Maybe if I had, like, Charlie Kirk-level platform, he'd be like, uh-oh.
Trust me.
He has a whole war room that, like, listens to my stuff.
Yeah.
So this will get to us.
If you could tell one thing to him, because he's definitely going to listen to this, what would that be?
You're not nicer than God.
You don't need to apologize for Romans 1. You don't need to apologize for 1 Corinthians 6. You don't need to apologize for the so-called clobbered passages.
Let me tell you, it's not just about those one or two verses.
He says that homosexuality is different than other sins.
It's not different than other sins.
Jesus died for homosexual sins just as much as he died for any other sins.
This is what I say.
For people who say, It's just about these verses.
Here's the alliteration I use.
I'll go through it quickly.
I say the definition of marriage in the Bible, even if you took out all the negative verses about homosexuality, it's rooted in creation.
It's reiterated throughout scripture.
It's repeated by Jesus himself.
It is representative of Christ in the church, and therefore it is reflective of the gospel.
And I could go through all the biblical references to support all of those, and I have many times on my show, but it'll take a long time.
Those five R's are how we have to remember why it is so important to get the definition of marriage right, because when people start denying Genesis 127, they eventually deny John 14, 6, that Jesus is the way, the truth of life, that no one comes to the Father except through him.
I hope that doesn't happen to Andy Stanley, but he's compromised so much on this one issue and I think has probably actually burdened a lot of people who struggle with same-sex attraction rather than freeing them with the truth of the gospel.
First of all, that was so great.
I wish you were with me in Cambridge.
Oh, that was great, by the way.
You did a great job.
And in Jubilee too.
I watched both of them.
Thank you.
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The Cambridge one was, the Jubilee thing was hard, but it was the second hardest thing I've ever had to do.
The Cambridge thing was the hardest thing I've ever had to do.
Okay, can you tell, you've prioritized people.
Yeah, no, I actually haven't very much on air.
So, I mean.
So they're so deceitful, little snakes there, right?
So they're like, oh, let's go have a nice conversation at the Cambridge Union, right?
Yeah.
And so I had a feeling it was more than that because someone leaked an email to me that they were like, hey, come here to sign up to debate Charlie Kirk.
So they're advertising all this to do about it.
Not a conversation.
No.
And so I was like, okay, this is a little weird.
As soon as I show up, I could feel like in my spirit, I was like, okay.
The tension.
You think you're going in for like an interview?
I'm like, this is the Roman Coliseum.
Yeah, that's what it looks like.
And so I'm walking in as like a gladiator.
Yeah.
Not a single person applauded when I walked in.
It's 400 people, right?
Now, remember, I'm in a foreign country.
I just got off a red-eye flight.
I didn't sleep, right?
I got two kids at home.
Like, so you're a little bit, you know, just— Do you have any of your—like, is Andrew with you?
You got any of your people?
I have Mikey and Blake, and Blake's amazing.
Blake is, like, the smartest person I know, right?
At least you have, like, someone.
And I was like, guys, we have to—so we prepped the best we could, right?
Yeah.
So I do this interview with this—it was a ridiculous interview with the head of the Cambridge president.
And then she, like, throws me out into the center of the Coliseum, right?
And so they start bringing these people up, and, you know, it's very interesting.
I thought I did very well keeping my calm and composure, right?
Because it's, like, very easy to have an outburst like that.
I didn't have a single person clap for me, right?
Which is very different than your typical, like, what you do.
Yes, or at least it's mixed, right?
Like, some booing, some cheering.
So usually when I'm doing an event, I could at least like see somebody nodding along.
Like instead it's just like, and so you're, That is hard.
People who don't public speak, like, it's really hard when you look out into the audience and it's blank stares.
And then they're applauding even the dumbest point that this person makes, right?
They're like, yeah!
You know?
And so, but I was like, so I was very happy with how I kind of kept my calm and composure.
Yeah.
But understand, so you have these, like, high IQ, low wisdom, you know.
Yeah.
People at Cambridge.
And they have all week to prepare for what they're going to say, right?
And I don't know the topic.
So they come up and it could be anything, right?
It could be abortion.
It could be transgenderism.
It could be Israel.
Okay.
So they've been preparing their best argument.
They're like, okay, I'm going to formulate my best argument for Charlie Kirk and he has no idea.
I don't even know the topic.
Yes.
So I don't even know.
Anything.
And on campus, I'm used to that.
But this is different.
And it's fine.
I'm so glad I did it because I'll go anywhere and I'll do that.
And I hope it sets an example for other people.
You shouldn't be afraid.
But here I am.
I'm proclaiming the gospel.
And they're mocking and snickering.
And I'm like, God is real.
And they're just literally laughing in the room.
And again, I'm unmoved by that.
It went super viral.
And it was what they call a Rorschach test, right?
Which is like the left is like, oh, you know, Charlie is whatever.
I was like, okay.
And then the right was like, you know, really glad you hung in there.
But overall, the consensus overwhelmingly was like, Charlie, you did great.
Well, there's no one else that could have done better.
I don't know a better debater than you.
And so I'm glad that you were the – I mean, I guess you weren't the first because I think other people have done it as well.
But it wasn't in that hospital.
It wasn't the same?
No, no.
Okay, so this was the first format like that?
Shapiro did it.
Yes.
Shapiro did it at Oxford.
The one he did at Oxford was super hostile and we kind of flipped.
So I did Oxford, it was very chill, and then, So it was like, for whatever reason, it was like inverted for us.
Yeah.
But like, it was like a 10 out of 10 husband.
And like, they will come and they'll insult your appearances.
They'll insult like everything, right?
Like everything's on the table.
Because they want you to try to have an outburst, right?
Wow.
And like, they want to try to get you.
And so, anyway, I consider it a huge blessing to be able to do it.
But now you're prepared for anything.
Oh no, now it's like, okay, I'll go debate at Harvard.
Like, I don't care.
Yeah.
Or Dartmouth.
Yeah.
Because, I mean, it is, it was like, there was an ambush met with like, Just the whole, like, configuration of the room and the acoustics.
That room is from, like, 1820.
So, like, there's all wood.
So it just all, like, when they applaud, it just got so loud.
How long was it?
An hour and 45 minutes.
Pretty long.
Yeah, no, that's a long time to be kind of on your feet, you know.
And so here's the thing.
So because we thought that, like, it would be a little bit nicer, I hosted my whole show right before that, you know?
So I did like a whole show in London and I was like, okay.
And then as I'm getting closer, I'm like, We are like somewhat – how do you prepare?
You don't know what they're going to talk about, right?
That's true.
And so anyway, with that being said, the one guy came up.
He was like, in the Bible, it doesn't say homosexuality is wrong.
Can you repeat those five R's again?
Yes.
Okay.
That was so well said.
So even – yes, I remember the first time I talked about this on my podcast was probably 2018.
And I don't know.
I guess the Holy Spirit just helps me with this kind of alliteration.
But – because people always say, well, you don't have to care about what Leviticus says.
I don't know what they say about Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 and all of these other verses, but they just kind of say, well, we don't have to abide by those.
But if you look at the positive definitions of sexuality and marriage in Scripture, which is what we should look at, when we read the Bible, we don't just say, well, what can we get away with?
We read the Bible asking, how can we obey God?
Which means you don't just look at, what does he say I shouldn't do?
What does he say is good, right, and holy?
Rooted in creation.
We see that in Genesis 127, that God made us male and female.
Reiterated throughout scripture.
For example, Exodus 20, 12. Honor your father and mother.
The Bible doesn't say parents.
The Bible doesn't say spouses.
The Bible says husband, wife, mother, father.
Reiterated throughout scripture.
That's the second one.
Then repeated by Jesus himself.
This is Matthew 19, 4 through 5. And people say Jesus never talked about sexuality.
He never talked about these things.
And we could get into like how terrible that is of a hermeneutic, but.
I mean, that's as clear as it gets when Jesus is defining marriage and gender.
And then representative of Christ in the church.
That's the fourth R. That's exactly right.
Yes.
Ephesians 5. Paul says, this is a mystery, but I'm telling you that marriage here on earth, and I'm paraphrasing, represents Christ in the church.
just as the husband is the head of the wife, so is Christ the head of the church.
And so that's not true.
That's not true of two women who are together because it is the husband who represents Christ.
It is the wife who represents the church.
And so we read that the earthly physical marriage of a man and a woman is representative of a spiritual and eternal reality of Christ's marriage to the church.
And so in that way, it is reflective of the gospel.
The Bible starts with a marriage.
It ends with a marriage.
And the gender designations are not arbitrary.
So that is exactly why when someone compromises on I will give you attribution, but you're going to hear that on a college campus near you.
Okay, I'm ready.
That's so deep.
Thanks.
Before I have to let you go to go speak, why are so many young men especially joining the Catholic Church?
Yeah, you know, I've seen this a lot.
It's happening.
It's real.
I've seen, I have seen this.
I had someone ask me the other day why men are becoming more religious.
And there is some, okay, so there is some competing data, I will say, about whether Catholicism is growing or whether they're adding new people at the same rate that they're losing new people.
At least anecdotally, I know in right-wing circles, Catholicism has more momentum.
Tradition.
Would you agree?
Tradition.
Rigidity.
The expectation of this is what I have to do and this is what it looks like.
And I'm not trying to, I mean, everyone knows I'm, you know, a Reformed Protestant.
I talk a lot about Protestant theology, but I'm not trying to say this in some kind of like dismissive way.
Truly, there is something beautiful about that.
And I think there is something that they feel grounded in when they can look back at the history of the Catholic Church and say, "This has been done this way for X amount of years." Also just the existence of the magisterium, that this is what the Bible means, this is the catechism, this is how we interpret scripture.
There's a lot of debate and discussion and differing interpretations within Protestantism, which I think is a feature.
You know, a bad product of the Protestant Reformation.
So I think that's what it is.
Yeah, I think that's – I agree with all that.
And I can tell you the young men I talk to, they're joining the Catholic Church.
They can't quite put it into words, but kind of the theme is that everything around me is changing so rapidly.
Yeah.
And I want one thing that's not going to change.
Yeah.
And at least I could tell you, Allie, I am exhausted.
If I have to go to a church that looks like a Home Depot.
I think there's actually something about a beautiful church that points up that is holy and that, you know.
It's excellent.
Right?
It's not enough just to have a Sam's Club with worship, you know?
Not to say that Jesus can't be present there, but I do think that the old, even the old beautiful Protestant churches are something that we can take a page out of that our Lord deserves a holy place to sanctify.
Now, of course, Jesus is in all of our hearts.
But when I go to church, I want to feel as if I am pursuing the holy, right?
And to look at the beautiful.
And Catholics, you know, their churches are really beautiful, actually.
A lot of them, you know, stained glass windows, you know, beautiful art.
So I think that's part of it.
I think the aesthetics also in an increasingly ugly world has drawn people in, right?
Yeah.
I mean, we just like to have this hyper modern ugly world where there's almost nothing pleasing to look at.
Yeah.
I think that that help explains part of it.
Yeah.
I think that those are all really good points.
You got to go Dash to go speak.
Plug your podcast so people can follow it.
Yes.
It's called Relatable.
It's on Blaze TV, but you can listen or watch wherever you listen or watch your podcast.
My book, my latest book, Toxic Empathy, How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion.
I really encourage you, especially if you're a woman, but really it's for anyone who finds yourself aspirated.
Or when they say that in order to be a good person, I have to use someone's preferred pronouns?
Whatever it is, this is the book for you.
This book will equip you to have those conversations really effectively.
Allie, you're excellent.
Thank you for your courage.
Thank you, Charlie.
So many young women especially follow you.
So thank you for being a godly and biblical role model.
