A common line from people with mixed feelings about Trump is that they love his policies but dislike the man. Writer, playwright, and Claremont Institute chairman Tom Klingenstein says that gets it backwards: Trump's policies matter, but it's actually his personal character that matters the MOST for driving his badly-needed political revolution. Charlie and Tom discuss why Trump is the man for this specific moment, whether we are in a "war" for America, who he should choose as a vice president, and more. Become a member at members.charliekirk.com!Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Understanding Context and Virtues00:11:01
Hey everybody, to Charlie Kirk Show.
Tom Klingenstein joins us to discuss Trump's virtues.
We go deep into this idea of what are the virtues that Donald Trump presents to the country.
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Back by Popular Demand is a very important guest.
He is a philanthropist, a playwright, also chairman of the board of the Claremont Institute, a writer.
It is Tom Klingenstein.
Tom, welcome back to the program.
Happy to be here, Charlie.
So, Tom, I've had more people text me in the last few days than I can count all about your video, Trump's Virtues.
Now, I want to play some of this tape and talk about it, but it's an incredible accomplishment where you talk about his virtues.
And I have to, I'll be honest with you, Tom, I now use this with people because I'm constantly hearing about Trump's flaws or his shortcomings.
And I say, Do you ever talk about his virtues?
Before we get into it, Tom, tell us why you decided to write this piece and do this video.
Because there are two related misconceptions, I think.
The first is that a lot of people say, Well, I like Trump's policies, but I don't like the rest of him.
Well, it's really the rest of him that matters.
You know, he gets tens of thousands of people at his rallies, passionate.
They don't come to listen to his trade policy or his immigration policy.
They like those, but much more important is Trump himself, his character, his virtues.
And included in those are his courage and independence and willingness to fight for his own people and his commitment to America and its culture.
He thinks American culture is exceptional, and that's the way he wants to keep it.
Now, the other sort of related audience is people who say, I like his policies, but I don't like the rest of him.
And as I say, it's the rest of him that really matters, that one has to appreciate.
You don't have to like Trump.
You don't have to think he doesn't have any vices.
Of course, he has vices.
But what you have to understand is this is a war.
And in a war, you need a commander-in-chief who knows the enemy and he knows how to win, right?
So we're not evaluating him as a prospective friend or a dinner partner.
He's our commander in chief.
Similarly, in the Civil War, it didn't matter that General Grant was a drunkard.
Because at that moment, Lincoln needed someone to fight.
The regime was on knife's edge.
The only one willing to fight was Grant.
So again, you got to look at the man in the context of the moment.
This is what's important, that in order to understand the man and the context, people need to understand the context.
And you have been a thought leader on this, which I appreciate.
You must believe that we're in a war.
And if you think that it's peacetime, then you might not understand or appreciate Trump.
Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.
As I frequently say, I can't imagine another time in history where Trump would be appropriate.
But in these times, he's absolutely essential.
And I think that's people have difficulty assessing the man in the context of the moment, as you just said.
It's not looking at the man in the abstract, but looking at him in the context of the needs of the moment.
And the number one need, we need a powerful, unmovable commander-in-chief.
And understanding the times of which we are in.
Let's play part of your viral video, Trump's Virtues, which is the video version of an essay that you wrote, and it is terrific.
Play cut 52.
His policies are important, but not as important as the rest of him.
Trump grasps the essential things.
He understands the group quarter regime is evil and will not stop until it destroys America.
He is a fighter, bold, brave, and decisive, who has confidence in himself and his country.
Trump never apologizes for America.
He rightly believes America is the greatest country in history.
Trump says, in effect, we have our culture.
It's exceptional.
And that's the way we want to keep it.
Bold, brave, and decisive.
So, Tom, one thing that I'm trying to figure out is that other politicians try to mimic Trump or copy Trump, but it typically doesn't work out for one way or the other.
There's something unique about this man.
Help me understand.
Well, I think that's the whole point of the video.
You know, can you imagine any other politician withstanding all the abuse, the investigations, the impeachment, the verbal abuse?
There is no one.
So it's not quite right, as you imply, to try to copy him.
But you want to appreciate him.
You want to understand what makes him appealing.
And then in your own way, express that.
But it has to be in your own way.
Otherwise, you feel phony.
Yeah, and you're just trying to mimic a caricature.
So let's play another piece of tape here.
Play cut 53, please.
The woke radicals tell the Trump voters they are a threat to democracy.
Think about that.
They're saying you Trumpsters are a threat to democracy.
The woke radicals also tell us odd nausea that America is systemically racist.
Trump knows this is deadly nonsense and he says so.
This charge of systemic racism bounces off Trump because he has no white guilt or any guilt for that matter.
All right, I want to spend some time on that.
There is a lot there to unpack.
Let's start with the end.
It bounces off of him because he has no white guilt.
Explain.
Well, what the other side has been very successful at is playing on our white guilt.
They tell us that we're systemically racist, and they count on us to agree, at least to some extent.
You know, when I talked to Trump, I've only talked to him once, I told him he doesn't have any white guilt, and that's really important.
You know, he hadn't really thought about it.
Of course, he agreed with me, but he didn't understand the significance.
And if I could say one more thing, Charlie, on this subject, which is very important, and which I hope, if there's one thing you come away from you, the viewer, on this interview, it is this.
The other side wants to kill us.
Now, they do that in multiple ways.
They usher in millions of immigrants with cultures different than our own.
They create energy dependence.
They have an alarmist climate agenda.
These are all designed in one way or another to destroy America.
Obviously, brainwashing, intimidation, changing our language, those contribute.
But I tell you the most important thing, and this is my major point, which is of all the weapons that the other side, what I call the woke radicals, employ, this charge of systemic racism is the most powerful.
Because if we accept it, or if we don't fight strongly against it, then we will trade in our regime, the American regime, for their regime, the group quota regime, I call it.
So that's, I think it's underappreciated.
And by the way, Charles Murray wrote a book recently called Facing Reality.
It's dropped out of view, but it's something that I think your readers, your readers, your viewers might read because Murray, unlike most people, understands the deadly nonsense, as I put it in that video, of the charge that we are systemically racist.
Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
Enemies Are America's Enemies00:09:46
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The author of Trump's Virtues.
And there are several.
So I want to now ask this question, Tom.
The framing of the war.
That language bothers some people.
And I talked to some of our former supporters at Turning Point that say they don't like that kind of language.
They say we might be divided, but we're not at war.
Tom, Trump is not interested in necessarily convincing you we're at war.
He's interested in winning the war.
How would you go about trying to either convince or communicate or prove that we are in the middle of a cold civil war?
Prove we can't do.
But here's the way I understand it: that we now have in our society two understandings of justice.
Their side thinks a just society is based on group quotas.
Our side thinks it's based on merit.
Now, it's one or the other.
If you're admitting somebody to college, it can be group quotas or it can be merit, right?
It's when a society has different ends or different understandings of justice.
We're in a war.
It's like the Civil War.
One side thought slavery was good.
The other side thought it was bad.
The former wanted to expand slavery.
The latter wanted to contract it.
Well, you can't go in two directions at once.
It's kind of like, if I can use a simple analogy, if you or I are in New York and I want to go to Florida and you want to go to Maine, well, there's no compromise.
If we both want to go to Maine, which is where I have a second home, it's my second favorite state, then we can negotiate.
You know, we can decide when to leave and when the, you know, what route to take and when to stop for lunch.
But ends cannot be negotiated, and that's what makes it a war.
Yeah, the teleological end.
Where are you going?
And we have two completely diametric different opinions and views.
Let's go and play another piece of tape here from your viral video, Trump's Virtues.
Play Cut 54, please.
His enemies hate him with an indescribable fierceness.
Another Hitler, they say.
Elect him and he will be a dictator.
We should take this hysteria as reason for hope.
The America haters rightly fear that Trump and his party are on the threshold of a successful counterrevolution.
Trump hates his enemies every bit as much as they hate him.
His enemies are America's enemies.
His enemies are America's enemies, Tom.
Yes, because, you know, as he says, you know, the other side is attacking him.
But what they're really attacking is his base.
So fortunately, his enemies align with our enemies.
And he attacks those enemies with absolute vengeance and without any pity.
And that's what we need at the moment.
Hey, Charlie, let me say one thing.
I am the chairman of the Claremont Institute, but I'm here today in a private capacity, just to get that on the record.
Yes.
Thank you.
And I only say that because of how much I appreciate Claremont.
Want to make sure that that is uh that was mentioned.
I'm a big Claremont fan.
And in fact, I know, Charlie, that you've been taking a course that I'm taking from a Claremont scholar, and I say, good for you.
That's right.
And it's quite in-depth, right?
It's philosophical.
Very philosophical.
Yeah, we are studying the Gorgias and we are in Schmidt and getting deeper into power and politics.
I love to learn.
And Claremont really makes it accessible.
And Glenn does a wonderful job.
How should this translate into Trump's campaign?
His virtues, his approach.
What kind of campaign should Trump then run?
You know, I have a very quick answer, which is, you know, this really political consulting is not my expertise.
I think he ought to run on group quotas in part, group quotas in the military, in flight training school, in medicine.
Yes.
People understand that those are the things that are going to get us killed.
I totally agree.
If you're hiring based on group and not on merit, I think that is an 80-90 issue in this country.
So, Tom, can you give some historical comparisons?
You mentioned Grant in the Civil War of the type of figure that Trump is.
Where does he fit in history?
We are at a deciding point, dare I say, a turning point in American history.
You know, it's difficult to find analogs because he's so unique.
I mean, he's not a Churchill, but like Churchill, he is a towering figure.
He's defined politics, not just in America, but in the West, right?
You measure yourself against Trump.
I ask politicians, well, where do you stand with respect to Trump?
Right?
So when you look at towering figures, people that you're going to remember in subsequent generations, I think Trump is one of those.
I think he's more towering, will change things more than Ronald Reagan or frankly anyone else in our lifetime.
In our first hour of our program, we talked about how older whites are moving towards Biden, but young people and non-whites are moving to Trump.
Is this a phenomenon that can outlive Trump?
And are we seeing a total realignment of U.S. politics, in your opinion?
You know, here's another one, Charlie, where I don't know the answer to that.
I honestly don't.
Well, we are seeing, and I will just contribute my thoughts.
Donald Trump's movement is multiracial.
It's multi-generational.
And Tom, we've talked about this before.
He's been able to do something that no other leader has been able to do.
Fill up these stadiums, have a, and I use this language that gets misunderstood by the media.
Let's just say a standing political army.
Is that fair to say?
And that makes him such a threat to the current regime.
Can you elaborate on that, Tom?
I know you've talked about it before, but the capacity to have millions of fervent supporters is a political phenomenon, not just supporters, but they'll do anything for him.
It's a phenomenon we have not seen for quite some time.
And we're lucky to have his base, right?
As you know, conservatives tend not to be revolutionaries.
Yes.
Just the opposite.
But Trump's base is not so much revolutionary as counter-revolutionary.
And they're willing to fight.
As an example, you know, the truckers that boycotted bringing goods to New York after that horrendous judgment against Trump.
They're willing to resist.
And at the moment, we need those people to resist.
And that base is controlled by Trump and no one else.
They might have voted for DeSantis or somebody else, but they weren't going to fight in the way they fight for Trump.
They wouldn't be as united.
They wouldn't be as determined.
So the base is critical.
You know, Trump is accused of being a populist.
Well, to some degree, he is.
But when the elite are not responding to the needs of the average American, then we need recourse to direct democracy to populism.
So populism has dangers, but it also has real virtues, particularly in this moment.
So the base, as you implied, is absolutely critical.
And they're so passionate.
They're so committed to Trump.
The Power of a Strong Base00:03:18
This is a great advantage we've got.
Let's go deeper into that, Tom.
They say that Trump supporters are a threat to democracy.
In fact, they published an entire book that I have around here somewhere, White Rural Rage.
I don't know if you're familiar with this book, Why Trump's Base is a Threat to Democracy.
Your argument and contention is the exact opposite.
It's the best of a democratic system.
It's a voice to the voiceless.
It is the working class, the muscular class that's able to be involved in the process.
And we should lean into that, not cast them aside.
Absolutely.
As I said, they're Trump's greatest asset because to repeat myself, they will fight.
I mean, I think it's amazing, as I said in my video, that the other side thinks the vote of Trump voters is a threat to democracy.
I mean, this is, as is often the case, a form of projection.
It's the same thing when they say Trump is a dictator.
Well, Trump isn't a dictator.
It's the other guy that's a dictator.
But this is a common ploy to project onto your opponents something that applies to you.
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I want to play another tape here.
Let's play Cut 55, please.
Vivek Ramaswamy as Vice President00:11:02
Trump, the politician, came out of the blue.
An unconventional commander against an unconventional enemy.
Almost inconceivable as president at any other time.
Trump fits this turbulent moment to a T. Is it too much to wonder whether the appearance of this most unconventional man is providential?
Lincoln spoke of Americans as the almost chosen people.
Trump gives us hope that the God who has never forsaken his almost chosen people will not do so now.
Thank you.
It's beautifully said, Tom.
And you say an unconventional enemy.
The battle plan requires the general.
It requires the troops.
It requires the message.
It requires the grit and the fervency.
And we now know the deadline, which is through the administration of politics.
And if it wasn't for Trump, my contention right now is the Republican Party and the conservative movement would be so much weaker.
In fact, we wouldn't have that sort of fighting spirit that we still exist in some form or fashion.
Your thoughts, Tom?
And we wouldn't understand that we're in a war.
I mean, that's the number one asset that Trump has.
You cannot win a war if you don't know you're in one.
And you can't win a war without a commander-in-chief.
You know, I said he's unconventional.
I'm hesitant to compare him to Lincoln.
But remember, Lincoln was very unconventional, right?
But it so happened he was just the man we needed at that moment when the country was in peril.
And I think the same thing applies to Trump.
I mean, I said that his appearance feels like it's providential.
And I say that because he is so unconventional.
How else do you explain his presence out of the blue?
A game show host knows nothing about politics.
And yet he's just the man we need at the moment.
So if you were to try to build the ensemble to fight the woke radicals or the Marxists, I imagine the vice presidential selection is very important.
It could be important to maintain the base and to build that sort of coalition.
Do you have any thoughts there, Tom, of the form, not the name, but the form of what Trump should be thinking about as far as it comes to vice president?
Well, let me give you a name.
That's probably the best way to talk about form.
Again, I have to reiterate, I'm not a political consultant.
And having said that, well, now I can give my opinion, which is that I'd like Ron DeSantis to be his vice president.
DeSantis understands what Trump understands.
And of course, DeSantis is very capable, very courageous.
I understand DeSantis' reluctance.
But if I were talking to him, I would tell him he has a duty to his country that comes above his own political aspirations for us, for the rest of us.
I think he needs to consider this position.
You know, whether Trump would appoint him, I have no idea.
But we need a Trump, a MAGA Republican.
We don't need a Nikki Haley Republican.
And I tell you the other person that at least is worthy of consideration, and that's Vivek Ramaswamy.
If I were recommending to Trump, perhaps I wouldn't recommend Vivek as a vice president, but I would recommend Trump as the anti-administrative state czar.
His portfolio would be to cut the administrative state in half.
And, you know, with help, Vivek could do that.
And talk about Tom.
You did a long interview with Vivek when he was running for president, and you said he had some of the most focused, clear answers about understanding what time it is.
Can you tell our audience about that?
You know, Charlie, I'm getting old and I forget the interview, but I know Vivek, and he was the one person who understood we are in a war, and he said it, and he said it over and over.
I supported Vivek financially, not because I thought he would win.
We knew he wouldn't, but I was hoping that he would inject into the public discussion important ideas like we're in a war and describing the war.
He describes it as I describe it.
It's a choice, merit versus group quotas.
Most of the time, it's necessary to frame an issue as a binary choice, pro-abortion, pro-choice choice, or socialism versus capitalism.
In this case, the choice is group quotas versus merit.
And as we said before, Americans of all political persuasions over a long period of time oppose quotas or affirmative action.
Everyone, check out Trump's Virtues at TomKlingenstein.com.
That is tomklingenstein.com.
Tom, you're one of the few people to isolate with Trump that his lack of guilt and his confidence is a good thing.
People say, I wish he didn't have so much bravado or self-confidence.
You actually think that is a virtue.
Tell us why.
Because you have to have confidence in yourself to be courageous, to be independent.
Trump's ability to withstand four or five years of abuse, that is a function in part in his understanding of who he is.
Trump is comfortable in his own skin.
Talk to Trump.
He sounds, you know, in person, he sounds just like he does at a rally.
Because Trump is genuine.
And that is very difficult for a politician.
And that's one of the things that a politician can learn for Trump.
Be genuine when you're phony.
People get it.
They understand.
You must be authentic.
You must be clear and honest.
And in fact, I have always said that people hate Trump not because of the alleged lies that he tells, but because of how clearly he states truths you aren't allowed to mention, calling the news media fake, questioning our involvement in foreign wars, saying that our DC political class is corrupt to the core.
Tom, your thoughts.
Absolutely.
And I think your comment about fake, you know, he doesn't qualify it.
He doesn't explain it.
Trump asserts, and that is a manly quality.
And at the moment, it's necessary to assert.
The other thing he asserts, which is very important, he looks his supporters in the eye and says, what they know, you are not racist.
You do not have white privilege.
You asked me earlier, you know, what Trump should do.
That's a message that he should state and restate, because that's a response to the charge that we are systemically racist.
He needs to assert otherwise.
People know it.
They know the news is fake, right?
But sometimes a politician has to give voice to what the people already know or give form to unshaped opinions.
Fake was brilliant.
Everybody listens to that and they said, wow, exactly.
I wish I had said it.
Tom, is there any topic regarding this piece or the video that we did not cover that you want our audience to be aware of?
You know, I'm going to repeat something I said earlier.
It's this charge of systemic racism.
You have to look at the world today.
Look at all the events that are happening, whether it's the border or climate alarmism, brainwashing, intimidation.
These are all part of the same effort to overturn the American way of life.
And the most important weapon they have, the biggest, is convincing us that we are systemically racist.
As I said before, if they convince us, or if we don't fight back, then we will trade in our regime for theirs.
I mean, after all, if the regime is evil, why would we want to keep it?
So if, and I'm repeating myself here too, if there's one thing I want your audience to remember about this interview is just how important this weapon of theirs, the weapon being the accusation that America is systemically racist.
You have to answer that.
And it's one of the appeals of Charles Murray's new book called Facing Reality.
He answers the charge.
And one of the ways to answer it the way I answer it is, and again, repeating myself, we're in a war where the choice is not between slavery or non-slavery.
That was an earlier choice.
Today's choice is between group quotas and merit.
And most every American, or certainly a large percent, will choose merit and understands that American culture is built on hard work, perseverance, merit, not just brains.
Choosing Merit Over Quotas00:00:20
So that's part of it.
I love it.
Tom, we have to go.
Thank you so much, Tom Klingenstein.
Everybody, check out his website, TomKlingenstein.com.
Tom, thank you so much.
Charlie, thank you.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us as alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening and God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.