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Dec. 5, 2023 - The Charlie Kirk Show
37:21
The Impossibility of Peace with Hamas with Yoram Hazony

Conservative theorist Yoram Hazony was a firsthand witness to Hamas's missile assault, and has two sons serving in the IDF. So, what does he make of Israel's massive intelligence failure before Oct. 7? And what is the long-term path forward on Gaza and Hamas that is good for both Israel and the United States?Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Sons Fighting on the Front Lines 00:02:25
Hey everybody, it's on the Charlie Kirk Show.
Yoram Hazzoni joins us.
We talk all things Israel, mass migration, the West, Jewish donors no longer giving to Harvard.
Really amazing conversation as Joram has two sons fighting on the front lines in Gaza.
You're not going to want to miss this conversation.
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Joining us is a very special guest, Yoram Hazzoni.
Yoram, welcome back.
Hello, Charlie.
Good to see you.
You too.
We text frequently, and this is a tough time for you right now.
And I want to just plug your book, Conservatism Rediscovery.
It's a tough time because your nation is at war, and your sons and your nephews are currently in Gaza.
Yep, that's right.
Well, along with an awful lot of other people's sons and nephews.
You know, it's a citizen army.
Everybody's got kids in the war.
Walk us through, from what you can tell us, just how quickly you go from being at Shabbat, Yom Kippur, to war.
War Aims and Unity Government 00:06:40
But as far as what happened this last on October 7th, just what I haven't heard anybody, you know, from a first-person perspective, just what was that day like?
Tell us about, because it was a 9-11 type psychological shift where you wake up with the intent to celebrate and you go to bed and your whole nation's at war.
Yeah, well, it was Simchat Torah, which is the last of the high holidays, you know, that begin with Rosh Hashanah.
So, and it was the Sabbath.
And we got up.
We go to synagogue at, let's say, eight o'clock in the morning.
At seven o'clock, we got up and you hear the missile fall.
Missile fall.
You hear it.
Thud, You can hear it in the distance.
Are you in Jerusalem or are you?
We're in Jerusalem.
And later, when missiles started being directed to Jerusalem, we got sirens.
You get this wailing siren that sends people into the bomb shelters.
But an hour before we heard the wailing sirens, we were already hearing missiles falling down in the coast.
The whole country is about 50 miles wide.
So you can, depending on how the wind conditions are, you can.
And Judea and Samaria are elevate higher elevation than Tel Aviv, right?
Right.
Jerusalem is up in the hills above Tel Aviv, along with the rest of Judea and Samaria.
So we went to synagogue, we had sirens.
Which you weren't phased by because you're used to that?
Or was that a little bit unusual?
No, it's unusual, but it's not, you know, it's happened before.
Sure.
So there were sirens.
We went to the bomb shelter during services just for 15 minutes, then came back out, continued services.
By the second siren, we decided to just send everybody home so that we don't have all these people congregating in one spot.
So everybody went home.
And by lunchtime, we probably had eight or ten sirens that had gone off.
And I'll tell you the thing that was stunning was that by this point, you know you're at war because the country's being inundated with missile fire, but there was no Air Force.
And I said at lunch, has anybody heard an airplane all day?
And nobody had heard an airplane.
And my wife said, well, maybe they take off from Khatsirim from the Air Force bases in the South and they go towards Gaza.
And I said, the country's too small.
If there was Air Force, we would be hearing it.
There's no Air Force.
So there we were at war with no Air Force.
Why?
Well, we still don't really know why.
But that's a fact.
I mean, if I knew this in Jerusalem, everybody else knew it.
But, you know, excuse my ignorance here, but doesn't it just require a phone call to get a plane in the air?
Even on Shabbat, they have people ready to go.
I don't know what was going on.
I can't look.
A lot of people have asked me about how could it be that there was eight-hour delay before the Israeli.
Well, yeah, that was going to be my, what, 20 hours in certain areas, too.
Right.
Well, I'll tell you, since I've served in the Israeli Army, and I was a reservist for 18 years, and people should never underestimate the capacity of a bureaucratic military organization to be stupid.
And, you know, that sounds glib.
No, it's the, I really want that explanation to be right.
Well, we'll find out.
Look, after the war, we're going to find out everything.
But, you know, at this point, we already have three major intelligence figures who have publicly said, yes, I was on the call the night before.
And, you know, we got the reports that something was happening, and we thought it was, we just thought it was nothing.
We went back to sleep.
So, you know, the public statements by people who describe their own stupidity are, you know, they've already gotten rolling.
We'll find out more later.
Yeah, that's so interesting about the Air Force.
I hadn't heard that before.
Not an airplane in the sky.
Yeah, well, I mean, the normal thing is, if missiles are being shot at you, you scramble the jets and you bomb the places where the missiles are being launched.
That's just normal.
What is the, and so now here you're in the country, you're in our country, America, and I know that you have a passion for both Israel and America, as do I. What is the attitude on the ground in Israel right now?
I mean, is it obvious you're a nation at war, but it seems as if there's this tension between winning the war and holding accountable and remembering the lost and they're still hostages?
Yeah, look, there's definitely some degree of tension because there's still 130 people unaccounted for.
Probably most of them are hostages, although we don't really know.
They may have been killed after they were taken into Gaza.
Lot of people have been killed there who we thought were hostages.
So for sure, that's on everybody's mind.
But politically, the country is more united than anything I've ever seen in my lifetime.
There isn't really a left or right at this moment.
I mean the.
The country is being the war is being run by a unity government which is, you know, the Netanyahu and and members of the opposition together, and they're clear on the war aims, the aims.
One aim is to free the hostages, but the other, prior you know, the number one aim is to eliminate Hamas, eliminate the Muslim Brotherhood, which has been the, the government of Gaza for the last 16 years.
And when they say eliminate, I mean they they, they mean to hold every member of that organization responsible for the, for the crimes they committed.
And the third aim of the war is is to make sure that Gaza is never capable of being a military threat to Israel again.
Eliminating Hamas and Terror 00:06:06
So those things are achievable.
We have an extraordinary wall-to-wall unity like we've never seen before.
I think the major question on everybody's mind is, you know, is how much pressure are the Americans going to put on us to stop before we attain those aims?
Does the average Israeli believe that America has Israel's back right now, yes and no, and because the situation just is complicated people, people are incredibly loyal to, to President Biden and his administration incredibly grateful for the supply of munitions.
I mean basically they're, you know there's, there's an aircraft leaving the United States every day with ammunition that Israel needs.
Everybody's sincerely grateful for that.
On the other hand, it's a you know it's not, it's it's not a simple relationship.
Every, every morning, they send out, you know the, the munitions that we need, and every afternoon, somebody comes out of the.
You know, the White House or the State Department starts, you know, talking about how there's going to be a, a Palestinian state in Gaza, and it's going to be.
Kamala Harris said it was going to be transparent and accountable and like all of this stuff that you know we we heard this before the about Iraq, we heard it about Afghanistan, about Egypt, about Libya.
This kind of the, these like kind of you'll forgive me these kind of Washington fantasies.
That's what they are.
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So this is Kamala Harris, saying we must revitalize the Palestinian Authority.
I want to play this and get your reaction.
You are okay revitalize.
Play cut 27.
Well, as I said, we have to revitalize the Palestinian Authority, which means giving the support that is necessary for good governance.
It's also about what we need to do to recognize there must be some plan for security for the region.
And I suspect as a plan develops, it will take into account interim and then longer term.
What is she saying here?
Well, she's saying, I mean, the terrorist organizations that control Gaza and the West Bank, there's the Hamas, that's the Muslim Brotherhood that we're familiar with.
A lot of people remember the PLO, right?
The PLO was Yasser Arafats, you know, supposedly secular, but a fanatical terrorist organization which was brought in in the 1990s and given control of cities in the West Bank.
Now, that's headed by a fellow named Abbas.
Mahmoud Abbas.
Mahmoud Abbas.
And he has not yet condemned the massacres.
I mean, I think everybody understands this.
He hasn't yet condemned the massacres.
On the contrary, one of two things is true.
Either he actually sent contingents to participate in the massacres with the Hamas, or he's pretending they did.
I mean, I don't know what the fact is.
Just so everyone understands the geography, he's in Nablus.
Is that how you say it right?
He's in Ramallah.
He's in Ramallah, right outside of Jerusalem.
So he's, you know, like 60 miles away from Gaza.
But there is some disconnect, but he's obviously chatting.
He knew this was coming.
Well, like I say, his people are claiming that they participated in the massacre.
So I don't know if that's true for a fact or if they're just pretending that...
He's doing that for credit for his people or something?
He knows that the majority of people support the massacres, and he knows that that's dangerous for him.
He doesn't want the Hamas to take over Ramallah.
So he's saying we participated.
But look, this guy is not a partner for peace.
And there's nothing to revitalize there with all due respect to Vice President Harris.
Yeah, it's just also, the argument is so silly.
So Israel got out of Gaza and we got further away from peace with the Palestinian Authority.
They elect Hamas.
They incentivize terror attacks.
They get hundreds of millions of dollars and they build terror tunnels.
They don't want peace.
Look, we had an independent Palestinian state in Gaza for 16 years.
And we know how it ends.
We're not doing that again.
I mean, you've got 8%, according to this weekend's polls, 8% of Israelis supporting Harris's, the Biden-Harris proposal that the Palestinian Authority, that the Palestinians should be brought to Gaza and given Gaza.
That's not going to get you anywhere.
I want to play Cut 26.
I find this whole media narrative so flawed and troubling.
Play cut 26.
In the first day after this temporary truce had ended, Israel killed 200 Palestinians, according to the Gaza Health Ministry.
Holiday Stress and Ceasefire Hopes 00:02:48
Is that minimizing harm to civilian life?
Is that acceptable?
I don't have the details to tell you exactly who was killed, but I will say this.
We have been very clear about where we stand on this, which is innocent civilian lives should not be intentionally targeted and that Israel must do more to protect innocent life in Gaza and innocent civilians in Gaza.
Wait a second.
In World War II, did they do the...
You know how many Nazis are dying?
Did they do that every day, Yoram, in World War II?
This whole media narrative is unbelievable to me.
Look, it's a war.
The extremely unfortunate truth is that in war people die.
And there is no, I mean, she's mistaken, there is no Israeli intentional targeting of civilians.
But it is true that if you're in a building and under that building is a tunnel complex and that tunnel complex has to be bombed and you have refused to evacuate your house for a month where you were being told, get out of the war zone, and you didn't evacuate, then I'm sorry, it's certainly unfortunate.
Every life that's lost is a whole world, but you have to fight the war.
Fighting the war means killing your enemies.
These enemies are in the tunnels under those houses.
Yes.
Yeah, and the IDF drops flyers and calls residents on phone to leave before they do a military operation.
But also, you know, they want a ceasefire.
They had a ceasefire on October 6th, and they decided to end the ceasefire.
There is no ceasefire with them.
The ceasefire just means that they stop firing until they're ready to start firing again.
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Liberalism Creating a Vacuum 00:15:16
Yoram Hazzoni, check out his book, Conservatism a Rediscovery.
We were talking about Yoram, kind of the path forward.
There's no good solution here.
There's no good solution, but things have got to change, and they will change.
We're not going back to the status quo before.
I mean, there's we did the Palestinian state in Gaza thing, and whatever there's going to be is not going to be that.
So I think most Israelis don't want an Israeli occupation of Gaza indefinitely, but Israelis would prefer that to having United Nations peacekeepers or something.
And we were talking during the break.
I do think that as with other refugee problems in the world, it is definitely worth thinking about resettlement.
But I should just emphasize that I don't think Western nations should be increasing their radical Islamic population.
Gaza is largely a radical Islamic population.
The United States and Europe should, I think Trump was right, should have and should now stop allowing this kind of immigration.
Yeah, and so the question is, I mean, why not send them to Saudi Arabia or Jordan or Egypt or all the fellow Muslim brethren?
Well, those particular governments that you named are, I mean, they're all enemies of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Hamas in Gaza, the Hamas.
They're from to Iran.
That's much more attractive.
No, but seriously, I mean, the Egyptians and the Jordanians and the Saudis, they look at these people, you know, from Gaza in particular, the Muslim Brotherhood ideology, and they say, you know, they'll try to overthrow our government.
It's not an unreasonable fear.
But I do think you're right that ultimately the refugee problem has to be dealt with in the Arab-speaking world.
And so what do you think that looks like?
I mean, you know, a resurgence of statehood for Gaza.
And I'll be honest, Yoram, I just, the West is going to end up taking a bunch of these.
It's just, I see the writing on the wall.
I hope I'm wrong.
Okay, well, look, I don't know if you remember this.
You and I signed the National Conservative Statement of Principles a few years ago.
And I know you're against that.
I'm just telling you what I think is going to happen.
And that statement put the option of immigration moratorium on the table for the first time.
And I think we have to take it seriously now.
I think everybody in the West should look October 7th, look those massacres straight in the eye, because this is not special for Israel.
The kinds of people who did that, they would do it to Jews.
They would do it to Christians.
I agree.
So come on, we've got to change the software.
We've got to.
Yes.
And so let's talk about what you've been seeing here domestically.
We see it on campuses, at Harvard.
This is a byproduct of unregulated mass migration coming into the Western world.
One in seven people are foreign-born now in America.
It's certainly unregulated mass migration is part of the problem, but I'm not convinced that the regulated migration was sufficiently focused on these kinds of problems either.
I agree.
I mean, this was this issue that Trump brought up, and people didn't want to hear about it.
And I think Americans are going to have to have to dial back their liberalism some.
It's just not true that every ideology is equal to every other ideology.
Every religion is equal to every other religion.
Now, I'm not saying that every single Muslim is a problem.
That's certainly not true.
But our polling right now is showing 50% of American Muslims support the massacres of October 7th and 8th.
Look, that is, even if most of those people are just blowing off steam, how many of them do you need before you actually have a serious jihadist problem in the United States?
Yes, yes.
And then the head of Hamas now says that October 7th is just a start.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, it's kind of him to make that clear to us, just in case we were thinking that this was a one-off.
But they want the world and destroying Israel is just one step along the way.
And if Israel fights back and defeats them, and they feel like they should pop up somewhere else, they will.
They'll pop up somewhere else.
Help me understand, and our audience understand why some, not all, but some of the vocal anti-Israel voices happen to be Jews.
Where did that ⁇ that's something that's hard for people to understand and explain.
For example, they're more secular Jews.
They're not very religious.
But the flooding of the Grand Central Station.
I don't know if you saw that.
Where does that come from?
Well, there is a ⁇ I wrote a book once called The Jewish State, The Struggle for Israel's Soul.
Maybe some of your readers would be interested, listeners would be interested in it.
That book is about the Jewish struggle against the establishment of the State of Israel.
And there is this long history of liberal Jews opposing establishing the state of Israel.
So when Theodore Herzl was organizing the Zionist congresses at the end of the 19th century and saying, hey, we Jews, we want to return to Israel.
We want a state, his biggest opponents, his most bitter opponents, were liberal Jews who said, no, we don't want there to be a state of Israel because the idea of a Jewish state would raise the question of dual loyalty in the countries in which we live.
We don't want to go to Israel.
So this issue of nationalist, conservative, and religious Jews mostly mobilizing with the idea of returning to Israel, while some liberal Jews have always opposed it.
That's an old, old issue.
Now, most of that disappeared after World War II.
I would say that other than the absolute most radical lunatic left, all Jews in the United States and all Jews in the world after the Holocaust ended up rallying behind the idea of a Jewish state.
But if we look at, we've got Jewish intellectuals like Peter Beinhard, if you know him, and his position is that it's a traditional anti-Zionist position.
He thinks all states should be neutral and there should be no such thing as a Jewish state.
And unfortunately, these are like Dr. Norman Finkelstein, that guy, right?
Yeah, yeah.
He's a student of Chomsky, and Chomsky himself was a famous anti-Zionist crusader.
But think about it like this.
You know that there are on the American left, like on the extreme American left, there are people who hate America, right?
So the same thing is true of the Jewish left.
On the extreme Jewish left, there are people who hate Israel.
It's not large numbers of people.
They're loud.
Well, because they're useful.
They're loud because people, the left wants to amplify those voices because it makes it look like we don't have overwhelming support for Israel from among Jews.
At the moment, we have absolutely overwhelming support for Israel among Jews.
And I actually think that since October 7th, there's the beginning of a shift among liberal Jews.
Yeah, talk about that.
In America, American liberal Jews.
What are you seeing?
Well, look, you know that Jews in America have been mostly liberal for a century.
85%.
There's 15%, maybe 20%, who are conservative, nationalist, the kind of people who would come to your conferences or my conferences.
And then the majority are liberals.
And I don't want to say that they're not loyal Jews, but their worldview is primarily liberal.
It's more liberal than it is Jewish.
And that means they've supported every crazy liberal thing that's happened in the United States.
People have been asking me for decades, can that ever change?
And I don't know the answer, but I do know that right now, an awful lot of these liberal Jews are reconsidering.
They are.
They're reconsidering.
And you know what?
I'll tell you exactly what they should reconsider.
Here's my advice.
I think, number one, liberal Jews have to change their position on immigration.
Yes.
And we just saw, I don't know if you saw this, that Ackman wrote a Famous Jewish liberal hedge fund, but he's more moderate in some ways.
He's not Soros.
No, definitely no.
No, no, Soros is like, you know, it's like revolutionary left.
No, no, that's not actually.
No, but I'm talking about, I'm talking about the majority of liberal Jews.
He has a very mainstream political.
So that's the question: is that majority of liberal Jews?
Is there any chance they'll be less liberal?
And I think that the letter that you just saw sent to Harvard, there were a couple of points there that were, you know, pretty amazing.
I mean, one thing he said was, one thing that he said was that he feels guilty that it's taken him up until this tremendous explosion of anti-Semitism on the left to begin speaking out about things that have been going on for many, many years.
So look, that's an honest regret saying repentance is a beautiful thing.
I've made a mistake.
So look, on the immigration thing, I think we need to look for repentance.
But I think, can I just interrupt really?
Yeah, yeah, please.
It's just that there's this tension, though, in secular Jewish culture that you must be compassionate to all people.
It's like tolerance is almost a central, tolerance is taken more seriously than the Torah in secular Jewish households.
You know, I really would like to say that it's just liberalism.
No, you can say that.
If I say that, they call me an anti-Semite.
Okay, so it's just liber.
Look, I don't know.
I've known plenty of liberal Catholics.
Pretty of liberal Protestants.
And I just have to tell you, to me, they're all the same.
Like, it's like the liberal Jews and the liberal Christians, liberalism is their God and their religion.
And it leads them to all sorts of foolish things.
And what we're going through now is horrible, but we should be pushing to get a change, to get liberals, liberal Jews and liberal others to change on two points.
The first, we said, is immigration.
The second is on the public Christian character of this country, which we've talked about before.
I think that people have to, at this point, begin to realize liberalism has created this vacuum in the public space, and that vacuum is being filled by this insane concoction of Islamic supremacism with woke neo-Marxism.
You'll notice that it's the same.
It's the red-green axis.
Yeah, it's the same people from the George Floyd riots.
This is like in 2020, we had the, you know, the six months of riots and burning and cultural revolution, and now we're doing it again.
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So I want to just zero in on this.
I do see this.
I see this with Jewish billionaires.
I see this with rank-and-file liberal Jews.
There is a realignment potentially happening here.
Bill Ackman's letter, very, very powerful stuff, where there is a lot of remorse and kind of repentance.
It's an incredible article.
There's some stuff that I don't love here about diversity, but yeah.
He explicitly says that straight white males have been persecuted.
Now, when have you ever heard a prominent liberal Jew talking like that?
So that's new.
Why do you think he's now saying that?
Because I think he's really rethinking his mind.
I think you're right.
I think that the scales have fallen on the street.
Look, there's a whole bunch of people, not just Jews, but Jews, many prominent liberal Jews among them, who've been saying for years there's a problem with anti-Semitism in the United States and it's on the right, right?
There's been this slander against the nationalist camp that Trump is an anti-Semite and Hawley is an anti-Semite and Tucker Carlson and on and on.
Delegitimizing Conservatives on Campuses 00:04:04
You know this story.
And it's all nonsense.
None of these people are anti-Semites.
There are, of course, some actual small number of real anti-Semites on the right.
And that's worth worrying about.
But right now, the overwhelming, I would say two orders of magnitude larger threat of anti-Semitism is from the left.
The explosion of anti-Semitism in America is the same.
Well, they also control the institutions.
So just from a matter of, you know, where it can be implemented, right?
They control Harvard, Princeton, Yale, FBI.
And so I'm seeing a lot of, this is a bad term, but buyers' remorse.
People that have funded and financed some of these institutions for years recognize that they've been subsidizing Jew hatred.
And it's not just Harvard.
It is across the board.
And I sure hope this leads to a serious permanent divestment.
I'll be honest, one of the things that I heard is some people say, but I'll reconsider giving money once they change their ways.
Yeah, there's no change coming.
Talk about that.
Look, in 2020, there was this cultural revolution in America, right?
I don't think it's over with.
I think it's over.
No, it's not over.
But in the summer after the George Floyd riots, when the New York Times kicked out all these liberal journalists and when Princeton erased Woodward Wilson's name from the university, that was a watershed event in the political configuration within the institutions of American liberalism and internationally, by this is true in Britain and Europe also.
That change, we have to get used to it, it took us from the old liberalism, you know, which was capable, it was all about tolerance, was capable of tolerating some number of people like you and me.
Right?
So, you know, the New York Times would allow in those days 20% or 15% of the op-eds to be written by conservatives.
It was affirmative action.
Okay, it was, but that was their worldview.
No, of course.
Okay, so this is, so we have to understand that's gone.
We've moved to a different world.
The people in charge of these institutions now that have them under these institutions under their thumb, they're not liberals in the old sense.
They are neo-Marxists.
And their goal is the eradicate, is eliminate and delegitimize and expel.
Delegitimize the Christian conservatives, the nationalists, delegitimize all of us and expel us from having any kind of role in public society.
And that change, which we're now seeing moving forward another step.
Now what's happening on these campuses is that in addition, there's a move to expel the liberal Jews.
I mean, this is bizarre, but it's real.
It's what's really happening.
Yes.
Is that these campuses, having now mostly delegitimized Christian conservatives, now they're taking the next step and they're saying, okay, let's delegitimize and expel the Jews as well.
And look, I definitely think that Jews should have seen this many years ago.
I mean, some of us did.
But let's open the possibility that some very important people, like Akron and many others, that they're going to take some first steps.
Yes.
And we've got to be encouraging that.
I think that's right.
I agree completely.
There is some bitterness by some people on the right.
Oh, they built it, so they have to buy it.
No, no, no.
I don't think that's right.
I think that we should always be open for people to reconsider their ways and their giving, especially when they say, look, I've been given to Harvard.
No more.
I screwed up.
Joram, really great.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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