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Jan. 10, 2023 - The Charlie Kirk Show
34:13
January 6, Brazil Edition? with Paulo Figueiredo and Matthew Tyrmand
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Brazil's Constitutional Crisis 00:14:19
Hey, everybody.
Today on the Charlie Kirk show, what is going on in Brazil?
Brazil is a madhouse right now.
It is in total and complete upheaval.
Matthew Tierman walks us through it and then Paolo, who's a very popular news host in Brazil, gives us the detail.
And it could happen here.
In fact, it might have already happened here.
It's very interesting.
Email me your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.
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Now is Matthew Tierman to talk about Brazil.
Matthew, welcome to the program.
What on earth is happening in Brazil?
The storming of the presidential quarters yesterday?
Walk us through it, Matt.
Well, certainly.
Obviously, they're trying to build as many correlations as they can with what happened in DC two years ago.
And it does stem from a similar protest movement of anger, a feeling of disenfranchisement, distrust with the system.
But in Brazil, it is the separated powers are so much more out of whack.
It is so much worse.
There have been protesters on the ground in Brazil.
We talked about it at Amfest with you and Steve a few weeks ago.
We're at day 70, 71 of millions into tens of millions of people who have occupied campsites around military barracks in cities all over the country, and specifically in Brasilia, the federal capital, obviously the most.
And they marched into these buildings yesterday, the three main buildings being the National Congress building, the Supreme Court building, and the presidential palace.
And there was no violence.
They were pushed back and vacated.
There were some lefty agitators who did do destructive things, which has given the pretext for the new federal regime to clamp down.
They've already clamped down heavily on journalists, on pastors, on protest leaders, on Indigenous peoples who have been leading these protests.
They've censored them.
They've frozen their bank accounts.
They've taken, deplatformed them out of social media.
And there are more arrests coming, certainly.
I mean, they are going to use this to cement power aggressively, as we would expect from those who are admittedly Marxists and believe that Venezuela is a successful experiment in corporate national governance.
I think a lot of the anger that the people are feeling in Brazil is that the election was not legitimate, which I find hilarious when Americans say Brazilian elections are legitimate.
They're barely flirting on third world status when it comes to elections, okay?
And the second is this growing sense of anger that the CCP is about to take over Brazil.
Talk about that, Matt.
Yeah, well, certainly Lula, you know, important background.
Lula was in prison.
He was a two-term president who was caught in a massive public corruption scheme.
Lava Gioto, known cloakly there, Operation Car Wash, if you went to Wikipedia, Wikipedia's entry about it's actually decently credible and well sourced.
This public corruption scheme was Lula and his people, the Workers' Party, the Marxist Party, PT, selling state assets, the country's assets, natural resource assets to China for cash and bags.
Petrobras, the biggest company, the state oil giant, was looted and much of the oil was going to Cuba to help support and buffer that regime.
By way of background, Lula and Fidel Castro formed the Forum Sao Paulo in 1990 to organize Marxist movements politically all over Latin America.
So these ties run very, very deeply.
But he was arrested, he was impeached, convicted, arrested, and put in jail.
And his judicial appointees and his successors, Dilmarusep, also later impeached and convicted and kicked out of office for the same public corruption scandals.
They let him out of jail to run him.
So not only did they let him out 580 days into a 12-year sentence, and nobody thought that this judicial process in impeaching and convicting him was dirty.
It was three separate courts, 19 judges across three tribunals unanimously.
And these were not Bolsonaro appointed judges.
These judges predated Bolsonaro.
And they convicted him.
And then this court came with this election coming into focus and let him out and annulled his sentences, vacated the judgments, and then expunged his record because in Brazil, there's a public corruption law.
If you are a felon, you cannot run for public office.
So they just wholesale got rid of it.
And so people have been already up in arms about that.
And then you see, much like we saw with Trump, the enthusiasm gap is so massive, but even more so, Lula, and by the way, the left, the only thing they're good at is protest movements.
They send people to the ground and they make themselves look like they have a bigger presence optically than they really do of support within the society.
Well, there are no Lula pro-Lula people.
In a certification, 20 people showed up outside the building where he was certified.
Juxtapose that with the millions who have been camped out in their city squares and outside military barracks.
You know, you can find video on my Instagram and Brazilian Patriots Instagrams of Lula everywhere chanted, Lula thief, you belong back in prison everywhere, in malls, in airports.
When any of these people go out, the chants start by default.
There's no pushback.
The support for Lula is de minimis.
So nobody has any trust in this election process.
And to compound matters, they did not comply with the constitutionally required audit as to be done by the military.
The electoral courts overseen by Lula's people, they wholesale ignored the military audit demand, which is constitutionally predicated in the Article 142 that the Patriots of Brazil keep trying to force the invocation of.
So it's a real crap show.
It's really very, very ugly there.
Democracy's dying.
Do you think our CIA is involved?
Yes.
You know, I don't think to an overwhelming degree they help where they can buffer the support.
I know for a fact that there have been CIA representatives working out of the State Department's headquarters, the embassy there.
I know that from other journalists that I speak to on the ground, that they even had somebody got a business card of a FBI agent.
FBI doesn't go down to Brazil.
The FBI does their same kind of chicanery domestically.
This was obviously a CIA front sort of face and business card and image that they were trying to propagate.
Absolutely.
We know my first Tucker hit, Tucker and I talked about it.
William Burns, the head of the CIA, was sent down there a year ago to finger wag at Bolsonaro's and say, don't get in the way of this election.
As if to say, if you know fraud, just let it go because we're on the side of them.
They telegraphed it very, very.
Yeah, so now Bolsonaro's in a hospital in America?
In Orlando.
So he went to Orlando the day before the inauguration or two days before the inauguration when the invocation of 142 and getting the military on board with forcing the audit by going to the courts, using their military force to arrest the judges, which is 100% justified given their evisceration in the Constitution.
Who judges the judges, right?
Who watches the watchers?
Well, the judges say, hey, nobody can judge us.
We're above the law.
Well, the military should have exerted a role that is given to them in the Constitution to take that court by force, to take the electoral machines and audit them and evaluate them for the veracity that the Lula's party has put forward.
Didn't happen.
Bolsonaro went to Orlando.
My guess is he was planning to go into exile somewhere.
America is probably not that safe.
Or in the State Department, we'll extradite him quite quickly, as well as the journalists who've been in hiding because there have been journalists arrested, censored.
This court has run amok with rule of law.
It is like watching a Zimbabwe Mugabe style justice administration of justice.
And I think that it's not safe for Bolsonaro in the U.S. or any of the Brazilian journalists who've been in exile here.
So I do think that I don't know why he's in the hospital.
I've seen reports from Globo.
Nothing's confirmed as to the details behind it.
Email us freedom at charliekirk.com.
I certainly don't put it past our intel community to be involved in anything that is clandestine south of the Tropic of Cancer.
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So, Matthew, this is something that people are very passionate about.
How does this play out?
It seems as if this was a January 6th, January 8th equivalent where now it gives the regime, the Lula regime, a prerogative to now become more totalitarian.
Am I reading that correctly?
Oh, 100%.
I mean, the fact that they got this far with this many people, you know, it was by way of background.
When Lula was pushed out of office, it was because the media broke these scandals of public corruption.
This is a very different media than it is now.
This was 10 plus years ago.
And the people went to the streets in such mass and the military defended them in doing so, defended their right to protest, assemble and protest, make their voices heard, that the legislature couldn't ignore it.
And they were compelled to impeach him.
Now they've learned from that.
Every sub-generation, they cement power a little more tightly.
You know, Lula has been telling us who he is for many, many decades.
I mean, this is a guy who is much like Bernie Sanders, a Marxist labor organizer who got very, very successful in Latin American politics, where there's a proclivity toward Marxism because of the income inequality.
And so he founded, as I mentioned, with Fidel in 1990, the Forum Sao Paulo to incubate.
And here's who they incubated.
Morales in Bolivia, Ortega in Nicaragua, Amlo in Mexico, Kirchner and Fernandez in Argentina.
Chavez and Maduro in Venezuela.
In fact, Lula invited Maduro to his inauguration.
They're close.
He was a mentor to Maduro.
His head of transition, Monica Valenti, who was the secretary for the Forum Sao Paulo in Brazil, said early on to the media, we need to defend Brazilian democracy like Maduro has to defend his part fought for Venezuelan democracy.
They believe that Venezuela is a successful example of Latin American governance.
This is a feature, not a bug.
They want this.
They want to create a South American Latin American superstate right out of Orwell.
Orwell discussed this, right?
You had three totalitarian communistic superstates, Oceania, East Asia.
And this is what Lula wants in South America.
He's already floated in just in the last week, one currency for all of South America.
You know, if the Euro was a bad idea, which it is, it makes no economic sense.
I'm an economist, to have southern European countries like Italy that are more agrarian paired off with Netherlands and Germany, which are more industrialized, have different growth rates.
Well, it makes even less sense to take Brazil and merge it with Venezuela economically, given where they stand in economic productivity.
But this is Lula's dream.
This is his goal.
And yesterday effectively gave him a few more steps forward in it because now they're going to have the pretext to clamp down that much more.
And they've been clamping down.
They've been clamping down even when Bolsonaro was there.
Under Bolsonaro, journalists were in prison.
Journalists were censored, arrested.
Even his party member elected officials, congressmen, members of the House of Deputies, like Daniel Silvera, who was an elected official.
Since then, Carlos Mbele B. Aquisis, these are major, high-ranking people in right-wing Brazilian politics.
They've been censored.
They've been threatened with arrest.
Carlos M. Belli is definitely going to be arrested in coming days.
She's a very, very outspoken leader of the Brazilian right.
So, I mean, it's going to get very ugly.
And I think that if this does not get kinetic into a civil war, which we thought maybe yesterday would be a catalyst for, but it kind of fizzled out, then they've lost their democracy.
They've lost the sovereignty.
The constitution's been eviscerated.
Strong Cell NAD Discount 00:04:10
And you know what?
These people are Democrats.
And you and I have had the philosophical discussion.
We're both Claremont fellows.
We go deep into this.
The difference between democracy and republicanism.
The republicanism is constitutionally predicated.
We are constitutional republics.
Brazil was a constitutional republic.
What they want, what the Democrats want, what the Brazilian left wants, they want democracies.
Venezuela, in their view, is democracy because they can redistribute wealth and then buy votes and control the machines of everything in society.
And then it's mob rule.
Well, I mean, we're one of the few programs that say democracy is actually an unsustainable bad idea.
It is.
Democracy is unsustainable.
That doesn't mean that we disagree at the idea of consent of the governed.
Those are two different things.
Democracy is unsustainable where eventually democracy leads to a dictatorship every single time, period.
It's mob rule.
It's the 50.1% or half plus one vote the half minus one into their bellies or into the gulag or into servitude.
It is, you know, and the democracy underpins our constitutional republic.
We believe in democratic voting systems that we have.
And this is why the beauty of the Electoral College is a guard against that, is a guard against a democracy government.
Democracy leads to despotism.
Matthew, thank you so much.
We'll have you on again soon praying for Brazil.
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Free Speech Under Threat 00:14:34
Joining us now is Paulo.
Boy, I'm sorry.
I can't pronounce this.
Figure Doa Philo.
I'm sorry, Paulo.
I'm just going to call you Paulo, man.
How do you pronounce your name?
Paulo is fine.
The right pronunciation is Figueredo.
Figueredo.
It's very hard.
I'm sorry.
Portuguese is.
Paulo is good enough.
All right.
Yeah.
Portuguese is not my native tongue, but I'm honored that you're with us.
Let me just ask you a very simple yet complicated, it's a simple question to state, complicated answer.
What the heck is going on in Brazil?
Well, yeah, it's not simple at all, but it's easier for Americans to understand than for most countries, especially for conservatives.
Because what happened in Brazil has a lot of similarities to what happened in the U.S. on January 6th.
The long story short is that the Brazilian conservatives and the regular people in Brazil, they have been, their voices have not been heard by Brazilian institutions for a long time.
This includes the fact that people unconvicted or they really, really made new the conviction of former president Lula for corruption.
And that allowed him, he was convicted multiple times, a socialist, now president of Brazil, Lula, and former president of Brazil.
He was convicted multiple times for corruptions.
And the Supreme Court of Brazil, which they were appointed by majority, I believe nine out of 11 just were appointed by the left in Brazil.
And they made all the convictions that Lula had for corruption, they made them go away based on failure on due process.
It was not a matter of him being found innocent or not guilty.
It was the fact that the due process was not fully followed, according to them.
And that made him that made him being able to run again for president.
The election was conducted in a very unfair way by one of these justices, a guy called Alejandro de Moraes.
The process was very unfair to Bolsonaro, conservative Bolsonaro.
And in the meantime, a lot of prosecutions are ongoing against conservatives in Brazil.
So it's a complicated story, but the Supreme Court studied probes against conservatives for the crime of fake news and anti-democratic acts.
So people are being prosecuted by misinformation and stuff like that.
So everything that's been going on against conservatives in Brazil, people have been protesting peacefully for a long time.
We had big peaceful demonstrations.
And on the past 60 days or more, Brazilians have been peacefully protesting every day against all this that's happening.
Okay.
And a lot of species of fraud on the election as well.
Everything that's around that.
The failure of the institutions to listen to Brazilian conservatives.
So with that, you have a lot of pressure and people being repressed and people being repressed.
So you have two ways of dealing with unhappy people.
You have the way that the Western world came up with, which is you have unsatisfied people for some reason.
You give them explanations.
You try to convince them.
You're more transparent with the system.
And you have the system that's used in, let's say, China or Russia or Cuba or Venezuela, which is you have unhappy people, you just repress them and you just use violence, use the power of the states to go after them.
And to this point, in the past couple of years, but especially in the past two months, they have been using the Chinese way to repress people.
And people were very unhappy, very unhappy.
So when you have all these people unhappy and they're not being heard by the system, all you need is some sort of spark.
And you can have that with agents provocateurs.
And we had that in Brazil.
We have several footages of that.
Do you think the CIA is involved in that?
The American CIA?
Okay.
I don't know.
They might as well, because that's their specialty.
Yeah, color revolutions.
I mean, I was joking around is Ray Eps in Brazil.
I mean, I don't know.
And we have our rate apps.
We have now several footages are coming of people that are not conservatives.
There were involved in the bad things that happened there because just like January 6th, most of the people that were there were like families protesting peacefully and they just got in and saw what's going on and they tried to steer away from it.
But you had a lot of destruction and you see on behind the destruction is people that are not conservatives.
Who were they?
A lot of people are just yelling false flag, false flag.
And we might have some of that as well.
That doesn't mean that no conservative was involved in that because, like I said, people were very unhappy and unhappy for legitimate reasons.
The methods are stupid.
So what happened yesterday was to the right, one of the most stupid things that we could ever do.
If that was intentioned by some people, that was like a disaster.
It was the left's wet dream.
Okay.
Because now they're coming after everyone.
They're coming after everyone.
Just before we lived two years ago, we saw this.
I mean, and they were licking their chops and they arrested a thousand people and they created a new surveillance state.
So you guys are going to live through the same sort of aftershocks that we've had to navigate for the last two years.
But worse, because Brazilian institutions are not as strong as the U.S. Just before getting into the show, I just found out that the station that I work for, which is the largest, second largest station in the country, and myself are now being investigated by the DOJ for fake news.
Yeah.
So that's just happened.
So do you guys have a robust First Amendment like we do in America?
It's in the Constitution, but this is what happened.
Right now, the Supreme Court says what the Constitution is whatever they want.
So the Constitution of Brazil says we have the right of free speech.
It's phrased differently, but it's stated like this.
Instead of governments shall not infringe the right of free speech, it's saying it's just there as you have people in Brazil have the right of free speech and free press.
But since you have a court that can decide whatever is constitutional or not constitutional, and now they're saying that, yeah, it's free speech, but hate speech is not free speech.
You heard that before?
Hate speech is not free speech.
Misinformation is not free speech.
You're overstepping your rights and all that.
And it's very familiar because the ideology is the same as in the U.S.
The only difference is that the U.S. institutions, although they are flawed, they're more robust than Brazilian institutions.
So right now you have a dictatorship in Brazil.
This is very important for people to know.
Brazil, it's not under the rule of law and democracy.
And Brazil is not a democracy by any means anymore.
And this is my big argument.
I mean, we're against democracies, just so you're clear.
And it's a very technical thing.
We like, I know, I know.
But I'm saying, democracy and public.
I'm agreeing with you because democracy, how the neoliberals mean it, will lead the dictatorship.
It's chapter two.
It starts with giving everyone the appearance that you vote and you have equality.
And then you get someone like Lula or Luna.
I always get it messed up.
Lula.
Lula.
Who is a Marxist dictator?
But Lula is not even the dictator right now.
The dictator right now is Alexandri de Moraes, the Supreme Court justice.
This guy is doing whatever he wants.
And he's prosecuting everyone with fake probes and all that.
So the Supreme Court justice has prosecutorial authority in Brazil?
They were not supposed to have, but they decided that they have.
So if they decide whatever they want.
What kind of crazy system is this?
It doesn't exist.
And they're the victims as well because they're saying they're the victims of misinformation.
So this guy, Alicia de Moraes, he is right now, he just, believe it or not, he just was able to get rid for 90 days of the governor of one state saying that he's not in power for 90 days.
He's suspended.
He suspended a governor.
Have you ever heard of this?
No, it's not under our law as well.
But he decided he can do that.
And he's coming after journalists, businessmen, everyone that support ideas that he considers undemocratic and misinformation and hate speech.
None of that is, it's in the Brazilian law.
None of that.
He can't do that as well.
He doesn't have the power, but he decided that he does.
So it's a dictator.
Brazil is not a democracy.
It's not under the rule of law.
Right now, there's a group of people that can do whatever.
This is profound.
We have now seen a metamorphosis of the type of government that one of the largest countries in the world lives under.
Someone who died way too early was Justice Antonin Scalia.
Boy, did he love life?
He was larger than life.
He was wise and he was clear.
And he talked about every banana republic has a Bill of Rights.
This applies perfectly to our current Brazil dialogue, PlayCut 27.
But then I tell them, if you think that a Bill of Rights is what sets us apart, you're crazy.
Every banana republic in the world has a Bill of Rights.
Every president for life has a Bill of Rights.
The Bill of Rights of the former evil empire, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was much better than ours.
I mean it literally.
That constitution of the Soviet Union did not prevent the centralization of power in one person or in one party.
And when that happens, the game is over.
The Bill of Rights is just what our framers would call a parchment guarantee.
He goes on to say it is the structure of the U.S. Constitution that is its brilliance.
Paolo, your thoughts?
One person, one party.
Doesn't matter what's on a piece of paper.
It becomes a parchment guarantee.
It doesn't.
That's exactly what happened to our Constitution.
I talked to a few congressmen, U.S. congressmen about what was going on, and they were like, I'm sorry, but how can this happen?
How can a Supreme Court justice be prosecuting people?
What about separation of powers?
What about the accusatory system?
You don't have that in Brazil.
And I said, of course we do.
But once that ideology, they get in power and they decide they can interpret the Constitution whatever way they want, then everything goes away very fast, very fast.
And I told them, look, if you had a majority on the Supreme Court of the United States of liberal justices, that would happen so fast, you guys wouldn't believe.
So you think you guys, yes, you do have a more robust system in Brazil.
It's a fact.
That's why this is happening in Brazil and not yet happening exactly the same way in the United States, but it is.
Well, no, I mean, America's already lived through many parts of this.
I mean, we're not immune to this.
I just think I'll say the one thing that Brazil is worse at, you guys are not really good at hiding it.
You're just kind of owning it.
It's like, yeah.
Because they don't have to hide.
No, we're like nakedly corrupt and we don't care.
Yeah, but they don't have to hide.
And behind that, there's the support of the press.
So in Brazil, mainstream media still very much liberal.
You have one station, which is a station that I work for, second largest news station in Brazil.
And right now we have the DOJ coming after us.
I just got a message saying that I'm not going to be on the show tonight.
The show that I do is the most watched show in the country, political, about politics on TV.
I'm talking about TV.
And I got a notice saying, no, you're not going to be on until we understand what's going on.
So I'm just trying to understand the kind of how they're able to do that.
I mean, is it just, is it a gag order or is the is the news agency complying with the military?
It's the DOJ.
So we covered what happened yesterday and exactly what I said here, I said there, saying that I understand why people are upset.
But, and, and I said, it was stupid.
This needs to stop.
Get the hell out of there.
Congress of the public buildings, get the hell out of there.
I saw that movie two years ago in the U.S.
And I'm not, I don't like what happened.
So get the hell out of that.
That's correct.
That's the right.
Yes.
And I was on air.
And instead of that, they said, sounds like us.
We were on air when it happened two years ago.
I'm sorry.
Finish your thought.
It's just.
No, no, no.
I was on air.
I was, believe it or not, I was on air here covering January 6th in the United States as well, 2020.
And I said, oh, this doesn't look good.
This is, it's not going to play out well.
But now I know exactly what the left done with it.
It was everything they wanted.
It was, they justified every measure and they were able to come after all the conservatives and to create a chili effect, which made everyone kind of kind of afraid of being a conservative here in the U.S.
Praying for American Freedom 00:01:08
And that's going on in Brazil.
Same thing is going on in Brazil.
So they got a clip of me saying, well, I understand why people are mad.
And they said, well, see.
They do.
That's the same playbook.
I'm telling you, our Intel agencies have to be involved here.
This is the same blueprint that they used in the States.
I think it's totally possible, but it's also the same ideology.
The justice of the Supreme Court, they come here to the U.S. to liberal events and they share their worldview.
And if he was up to the liberals in the United States, free speech would be gone by now.
That's gone.
And it's the same ideology.
And they're able to get rid of it in Brazil.
Paulo, you're welcome back to our program anytime.
You do a wonderful job.
And I pray your country can remain free, although I'm skeptical.
Paulo, God bless you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charlie.
Thanks so much for listening.
Everybody, email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening and God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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