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Sept. 22, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
40:01
Confessions of a Former KGB Spy
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Jack Barski's Birth Certificate 00:15:11
Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show.
As always, you can email me your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.
We have an unbelievable conversation with a former KGB agent, Jack Barski.
An incredible conversation.
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Here we go.
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With us is Jack Barski.
Yeah, hello.
How are you?
I'm good.
Yourself?
This is really strange.
You know, I walk around here and I see pictures of you, and it's, I know this man.
I've seen him so many times.
That's so funny.
Yeah, from afar.
Yeah, that's funny.
Now, you were in the KGB.
I was in the KGB.
Guilty.
How did they recruit you?
How does that work?
Does it like when you're 12, they just say no.
Not at all.
For the kinds of jobs that they had me in mind for, they were looking at people who are already mature, like 23, 24, not yet fully formed and not yet attached to, you know, what family and children and so forth.
So I was approached, I was 22, I believe.
And the recruitment process was a very drawn-out, careful process because you don't send them over like potatoes.
Yeah.
Was this in East Germany at the time?
Yes.
So you grew up in East Germany.
Yes, I did.
And East Germany was kind of a proxy state of the Soviet.
Oh, yeah.
And towards the end, when Gorbachev took president, the East Germans were further to the left than the Soviet Union.
It's a story.
My best friend from college, he worked for the Stasi as a chemist.
And when the Gorbachev book came out, Glasnos Pierstroika, the Stasi bought up all the books and piled them up in the hallways because they just didn't like the softening that the softening of the hard line.
And Gorbachev was actually responsible for the wall to be able to come down.
Yes.
Because they were waiting for him to say, okay, thanks.
So the KGB approaches you.
Yeah.
What were you doing when you were 23 or 24?
I was studying.
It was in my third year of a five-year program to get a master's in chemistry.
So that made you a good candidate for potential international espionage?
Not necessarily.
I mean, there's a couple of interviews out there that were given by the two heads of the first directorate, which was espionage.
And what they said, what they were looking for in candidates were like a whole bunch of character traits.
Sure, you had to be smart.
You had to make quick decisions.
You had to be able to be by yourself a lot.
You had to be able, you had to be honest to become a really good liar.
And my favorite trait that they mentioned is well-controlled and well-controlled disposition.
Well-controlled.
I'm sorry.
Anyway, the last word is adventure, disposition towards adventure or something like that.
So then you pass the test and they deploy you into the United States.
Is that right?
Yeah, but that test, you know, at first I had an unofficial relationship with a handler where I studied.
And I was already employed by the university as an assistant professor when they actually made me the offer.
So it was a year and a half of like really checking me out.
Yes.
Because this is a tough job.
And the fact of the matter that I'm the longest surviving illegal KGB agent in the history of the United States tells me that they pick good.
Yes, so then they send you to America, is that right?
Yeah.
Under for what?
How are you allowed into America as an East Germany?
No.
So I traveled.
My trip to the United States had like five legs.
Went through several European cities to Mexico City, and I wound up in Chicago traveling with a false passport.
So but what was your stated purpose in the States?
My stated purpose was to live life as an American.
I had a birth certificate under the name of Jack Barski.
The young man died when he was 11 years old.
An American birth certificate?
Yeah.
So did the Russian government provide you with that?
Well, no, the KGB, in those days, it was possible, depending upon the municipality or whatever, where they keep the records, it was possible to get a birth certificate just for the asking and paying the money.
You didn't have to prove that you were entitled to have one.
So some KGB agent saw that Jack Barski died on cemetery.
And so he then acquired, I think, there were two steps.
First, he got a death certificate, and with that, he got the birth certificate.
And so Jack Barski rose again, so to speak.
And then you became Jack Barski.
Yeah.
So you lived in Chicago, is that right?
No, Chicago was just a waste station.
I wound up in New York.
Chicago would have been a really wrong place to pick because there were no Soviets in the city of Chicago.
I needed to have somebody.
So you use that word Soviet, not Russian.
What do you mean by that?
Well, Soviets, because, you know, one of my handlers were from Moldova.
Okay.
So yeah, they so, and I guarantee you that KGB had a number of folks from the Baltic republics because Russians have a hard time getting rid of an accent, you know, the Russian accent.
The KGB looked to Germans and also the interesting.
So it could have been Estonian or Latvian or Lithuanians.
And we also, you know, when it comes to the looks, we, you know, Russians look like Russians.
Yes.
Yes.
Germans, you know, there's a lot of Germans in Wisconsin, for example.
So you go to New York.
What was your job?
Well, the first year I had no job because I needed a social security card and a driver's license to become officially Jack Barski.
That birth certificate wasn't enough.
And it took me a while.
The instructions that the KGB had given me in Moscow were not workable.
And I had to improvise.
He said, well, first you got to get your library card.
And with the library card, you can use that as an ID to get your driver's license.
And then you go for the social security card.
Well, when I went to the library and I asked him for the form to fill out to get the library card, the lady asked me, do you have ID?
So that was a catch-22.
Got it.
And it took me quite a while to figure out how to get around this.
I wound up becoming a member of the Museum of Natural History.
And with that came a little plastic card with your address on it.
And that allowed me to get the library card.
Which then allowed you to get the driver's license.
So it started that chain of identifying events.
So then what was your job after that?
My first job, I was a bike messenger.
This was an interesting career move, right?
From assistant professor to bike messenger in Manhattan.
But, you know, it was one of the jobs that paid enough and where nobody asked you for a resume or like job history.
You have a bike?
Yes.
You have a bag.
Okay.
Here's packages.
Deliver.
And what year was this?
1979.
Okay.
So Carter is president.
Yes.
And but this is kind of at the climax of the U.S.-Soviet tensions right near it because Reagan takes over into the 80s.
That's right.
And then the wall came down in 91 or 99.
No, no, no, no.
The wall came down in 89.
The Soviet Union went kaput in 91.
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So I'm really fascinated by this.
So you became a bike messenger as an active KGB agent.
Were you in daily, weekly, or monthly contact with what you call your handler?
No, no.
First of all, that was a hard prohibition.
Illegals like me were not allowed to meet with another KGB agent in the country where they operate.
Then how were you handled then?
Handled through communication.
I got the shortwave transmission encrypted, Morse code.
And I used secret writing with regular letters.
So the dissolvable ink or whatever it might, or invisible ink.
Well, yeah, invisible ink.
It was sort of contact paper that had just a trace of a chemical on it.
And if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't find it.
It was very subtle.
Yes, very subtle.
And then it was invisible and it had to be developed.
So what kind of things would you be communicating about?
I mean, you're a bike messenger.
It's not like they stationed you at a nuclear power plant, right?
No.
The two and a half years I did the messenger work, I wasn't capable of getting to know people that were of interest.
It just didn't work.
I don't think I even had a girlfriend at that time.
So I had to be very careful easing my way into American society because in Moscow, they couldn't teach you how to be an American.
So let me ask you, at that time, you were, what, 28 years old?
So?
Yeah, I'm getting there.
So did you view America as an enemy?
Yes.
I was relatively soon disabused of that notion, and I would go to adversary rather than enemy.
But initially, we were brought up to absolutely believe that in West Germany there were Nazis in power, which is actually somewhat true.
The head of the West German equivalent of the CIA actually had served under Hitler.
And the United States was supporting, through NATO, West Germany.
So I know that the United States was evil.
And growing up as a child, Eisenhower was a curse word.
In East Germany.
Yes.
So you get to America and you live in New York City.
Yes.
And it's fast-paced and there's a lot of wealth and abundance and decadence.
Was there a turning point at some point where you say, wait a second, there's a lot of grocery stores here and a lot of people are able to speak their mind.
Was there kind of a moment where you had kind of cognitive dissonance?
You know, rationalization is very powerful.
Interesting.
The richest within the United States, we were taught, and I believed it, they were all stolen from third world countries, like the bananas from Guatemala and so forth.
Marx, Lenin, and the Sleeper Cell 00:14:53
So you looked at everything through a lens of oppressors everywhere.
Yeah, yeah.
But, you know, the turning point came when I had my first job as a professional.
I worked as a computer programmer and there was an insurance company and we were taught the military industrial complex, banks and insurance companies were the epitome of evil.
When I started working there, I couldn't find any evil.
They treated us really well.
And so I got to a point where I thought the convergence theory was not a bad idea.
And that's the thought that capitalism and socialism can merge together in some way to take the best elements of each.
And that was interestingly enough, that also pulsated through the KTB.
I had a guy when I went back to Moscow just volunteering that he liked it.
And he was not a high-level, powerful guy.
So he must have heard this from somebody else.
So, you know, and Gorbachev comes in.
So the process of me getting decontaminated was very slow.
And it was slow, but the exposure of being here was obviously impactful.
You bet.
You bet.
And when I went back to Germany and reconnected with my old buddies, many of whom were also members of the party, they still have residual communist socialist thoughts.
I want to talk about that, especially the communist view of history, which I think is very important.
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Jack, let's finish on your biography.
So you were a bicycle messenger, not even meeting with your handler.
What happened next?
Let's go through that and then we can.
Well, what happened next?
I went to, this was plan B after I was not able to get the passport.
And plan B they had me go back to college.
In America?
Yes.
Which college?
Baruch College of City University.
Okay.
And there I made a dumb mistake.
I became valedictorian.
Too much attention, right?
Yes.
Exactly.
I had to speak at Madison Square Garden in the Feld Forum before 5,000 people.
So when they were training you to be a KGB spy, was it part of the training not to draw attention to yourself?
Absolutely.
And being valedictorian at a major school is not a great idea.
Of course not.
And I got lucky.
I mean, nobody was interested in a guy who had a 4.0 average, who was older than the other graduates, and who spoke with a touch of an accent.
Not one person came to me and said, hey, where are you from?
Nothing.
I got lucky.
So you become valedictorian.
What did you study?
I studied information technology.
Okay.
And then did you get a job after that?
Yes, that's when I became a programmer at Midlife.
Ah, the life building.
And that is when I started my journey towards eventually becoming patriotic American because I loved that work.
I finally could create again because, you know, the bike messenger, you know, it was fun sometimes when the sun was out.
But during my time as a bike messenger, I actually taught myself Spanish.
So, but I want to go back to the bike messenger.
While you're a bike messenger, you're not actually a bike messenger.
You're thinking to yourself, I'm a sleeper cell for my nation against an enemy.
Oh, yeah.
That's your incantation every day.
That's correct.
But when I became a programmer and I did this for a while, I became more and more of a programmer than a sleeper guy.
Yeah, so it started.
So a new identity started to take over.
Yes.
You know, Western values started to seem more appealing.
Yes.
And there came a point when my spying interfered with my real job.
Yes, so if you're at the MetLife building, what are you supposed to spy on?
Basically, are they betting on a multi-decade rise?
Is that it?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
And they were fundamentally pretty stupid.
I had access to the health record of about 10 million Americans.
At MetLife?
Yeah.
And I told them that, and they didn't bite.
I mean, they had no idea the value of data.
You could have picked out important people who have health problems.
CEOs, senators, this was group medical insurance.
So we had some armaments companies.
Oh, wow.
Generals, potentially, former generals?
Yeah, I don't know.
Former generals could be, but military was not.
So you were still communicating at this time through a clandestine communication process?
Sure.
Okay.
And then what were they interested in at MetLife?
Basically, hey, keep on improving your life, become an important person.
No, eventually they asked me to see if I can steal some software, which I did.
But MetLife in general was just my cover profession.
And as I got better and was able to interact with more interesting people, I was able to suggest some of those folks for recruitment.
That was very important to them.
Get to know more people.
When I was a student, I picked quite a few students and then MetLife professionals.
Honestly, I thought I didn't do a good job.
Because I never had my hands on a secret document.
And what I sent them, I never got any feedback as to how useful it was, whether they recruited somebody, none of that.
So you work in the dark.
So how many, I asked you this, how many agents were there like you in America?
Ten.
There were all together three waves that they sent over starting in, I think, in the 40s and then 50s and then my wave.
The reason that I know this for a fact, the reason that I'm actually talking to you here is that there was an archivist in the KGB archives who had started, had developed a great hatred for the Soviet Union, and he figured smuggling stuff out of there that would hurt them.
It did.
And amongst that information, there was my name.
Really?
And so that's how the FBI found me.
You were basically a sleeper cell then.
Yeah, exactly right.
And that I did not know.
I wasn't told, but It was written by folks who used to work in the KGB.
The most important thing for my being here was being here because the tension was sometimes so great that there were mutual expulsions of diplomats.
And diplomats were the KGB agents.
So let's fast forward.
The FBI approaches you and says and does what?
Well, first I resigned.
Resigned as a spy?
Yes.
From the KGB.
Yeah.
So you wrote in like Invisible Inc., I'm done?
Yes.
And I told them that the reason is that I'm dying from AIDS.
That wasn't true, obviously.
No, and it worked.
Oh, it worked?
It worked really well.
They went to my German family and told them that I had passed away.
Yeah, so they didn't know that I was still around.
Okay.
So, and they, some people, if they're still alive, would have figured out once I did the 60 Minutes interview.
So, yeah.
And as a matter of fact, I have a friend who worked at counterintelligence in New York.
And he confirmed that most illegals had nothing to do but live in the country just in case all the diplomats get kicked out and we would be the only ones left.
I never got any instructions what to do then.
I wasn't trained in like explosives and stuff like that.
I had no weapons training.
So I don't know.
So you resign and you blame it on AIDS, then the FBI comes.
The FBI comes seven years later.
And they do what?
What they say hello.
Okay.
We would like to have a talk with you.
And that was a big surprise because I was certain that because I stopped spying, I couldn't make any more mistakes.
So therefore, I was safe.
Well, that's because the guy from the archives is responsible for the FBI talking to me.
And normally, if you catch an agent, an enemy agent, you try to turn him.
But I couldn't be turned because I was dead.
Interesting.
Right?
So I couldn't just come back and say, hey.
And so, but I had enough information, valuable information, that they allowed me to just keep on going, keep the job, support the family.
And eventually it took a while, but I got a green card and then I became a citizen.
Via that process.
Yeah.
It's fascinating.
So I want to ask you kind of more broadly: when you were growing up, you said you never read a speech of Stalin, but you did remember reading Marx, Engels, and Lenin.
Right.
Lenin was almost deified.
This is very interesting to me because right now in American schools, Lenin is being widely read.
No.
Oh, of course.
Yeah.
I didn't know that.
Widespread.
Yeah.
So is Marx and Engels.
So does that disturb you?
What are your thoughts as a former KGB spy hearing that's happening in America?
This is a whole bunch of lies.
And we know what it led to in history.
Marx was a theorist, okay?
You know, he didn't really do anything revolutionary.
No, yeah, that's right.
He was a writer.
Yeah, he.
And Engels was rich, but that's a separate thing.
Yes.
He underwrote all of it.
Correct.
And Marx, I think there's one statement that sticks to me.
The philosophers have only interpreted the world if it's time to change it, something like that.
Yeah.
But the practitioner of the revolution was Lenin.
I mean...
Yeah, Lenin brought the abstract into reality, and that was what he was worshipped for, right?
Yeah.
He was the one that stormed the metaphorical Bastille, right?
The Winter Palais.
Yes, that's right.
But Lenin was really, growing up, you looked at Lenin more than Stalin as even the North Star.
Is that correct?
Yeah, absolutely.
Stalin was, you know, described who he really was in 1956.
I mean, the guy killed two million of his own party members because of his paranoia.
So let's just focus on the Marx thing.
As someone who you grew up in a communist country.
Absolutely.
And you were steeped in it so much so that you were willing to be a spy for that.
What is your message to an American parent knowing that their kid is learning about Marx in a positive sense?
You can study Marx if you have the right attitude, right?
Right.
But what if the attitude is Marx is right?
American capitalism is exploitation.
That's idiotic.
And you know, I said it before, what it led to.
Nothing but murderous dictators.
Why do you think that is?
Why do you think those ideas lead to that kind of devastation?
Well, what happens is when the state becomes all-powerful, typically the most evil people will rise to the top.
And I'm very much afraid of decentralization that we're looking at in the United States.
Big organizations don't work and most often become evil.
That's right.
And then you get a totally, you got a maniac like Stalin who's willing to kill.
Yeah, he murdered.
He purged his own supporters.
General Tukhachevsky killed for no reason.
He just put a bullet in him.
Finding God in Atheist East Germany 00:04:13
So let me ask you, you grew up in a society where there was a belief there was no God.
Is that fair to say?
Oh, yeah.
Widespread atheist?
Absolutely.
I grew up knowing that Christians were stupid and weak.
So let's build that up.
Let me give you one other thing here.
We had Christmas.
I had no idea that the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus.
No idea.
Easter, there was no cross in Easter.
It was just like, so there was no spirituality.
We were like rational thinkers.
And yet, communism is just another belief system.
And so how did they go?
Was it mockery, ridicule towards the religious?
Yes, yes.
Churches were allowed to function, but a lot of them were undermined by Stasi agents.
There are some pastors who actually gave away parishioners who were suspect, right?
And then the bottom line is if you went to a church on a Sunday, somebody took note.
Really?
And your career would come to a halt.
That's so fascinating.
Because was it sort of, okay, you could allow a church to somewhat exist, but if the church got too popular, it could be a threat to the state.
Is that fair to say?
Absolutely.
Yeah, of course.
That's fascinating.
Christians have one higher authority, and it's not the state.
And that's why Christianity is a threat to the state, for sure.
How did you get into a relationship with God?
Well, I was recruited by the woman that I then married.
This was a very interesting situation in that, you know, this was love at first sight.
I looked at her and said, oh, my God.
And she was reporting to me, so I had to be really careful.
But, you know, she knew that she had a task.
At MetLife?
No, no, that was a large energy company.
Okay, got it.
She was my administrative assistant, and she aggressively went after me, and she did it in the right way.
She knew that for me to get to the moment when I recognize Jesus as my Lord and Savior, my head had to start, okay, because I'm a thinker.
All right.
And so we started out, you know, talking about this stuff a little bit.
And then she gave me the book Glycus Lewis to read.
Yeah.
Mere Christianity or The Problem with Pain, the other one.
And then there was a radio program run by Dr. Ravi Zacharias, Let My People Think.
And that guy, he grabbed me.
Wow.
He grabbed me.
So the rest is history.
You know, I went to church with her, and it was really good.
And that was at a time when I was in a state of depression because my first marriage was falling apart, and there was a horrible divorce because of the other attorney, bastard liar.
And so I was always been about love.
It's self-love, but over time, it was loving others and wanting to be loved.
And I was so love-hungry.
And when I went to the church for the first time, the pastor preached about the love of God.
That sermon was especially for me.
Wow.
Love Hungry Pastor's Message 00:05:43
What's your message to Americans right now in this time?
You've seen it all.
You grew up in East Germany.
You're a KGB spy.
What's your message?
Well, for a change, to start thinking again, don't believe the lies because the number of lies that I am exposed to these days is unparalleled.
It's getting in the same direction of a totality.
Yeah, let me ask you really quick.
Does it remind you of the same totalitarianism you once grew up in?
Yes, but I'm not willing to say it's going to become communism.
Totalianism can be like what fascism.
It could be any one of these blends.
What a fabulous conversation.
Fantastic.
So just to finish this conversation up, a lot of young people are being indoctrinated and propagandized in our country.
I mean, you've kind of seen it all.
What do you think is necessary for the remedy for that right now?
I think us conservatives, thinkers, need to get louder.
Louder.
Yeah, because it's the left that's screaming all the time.
Louder, but not necessarily more radical.
Okay, so I want reason to come back into society.
And that takes an effort.
What your organization does is phenomenal in that respect.
And so I think there is still hope, but it's going to be tough.
Let me ask you, you're a trained KGB agent, and so you were trained by the Soviet experts themselves.
What do they fear the most?
What is a totalitarian fear?
Well, that the power is taken away from them.
They fear the people uprising or the...
No, no, when we're talking about, you know, the whole construct of the state, you know, even if you're at the lowest rung, you still are better than the rest of them.
You have advantages.
You feel powerful.
This goes through the entire organization.
And, you know, in Stalin's case, it became totally radical.
But there were others like this too, Ceaușescu in Romania.
Of course.
Mao in China.
Oh, my God.
Yeah.
It's not just them.
I meant to ask you this question earlier.
Do you think it's fair to say that there's probably a fair amount of spies in America right now from some of our enemies?
Yes.
And it's easier nowadays because there's a whole lot more travel going back and forth.
Almost like a fusion between the two.
Yeah, and there are quite a few amateurs that just volunteer to help out.
Like, for instance, this lady who got close to the NRA, she was a rank amateur because she communicated with Moscow through social media.
You never would have done that.
No.
Well, I mean.
Yeah, and she.
No, I was a professional for sure.
Oh, yeah.
So do you think that there's current KGB sleeper cells in America right now?
I'm unwilling to guess.
Because here's the thing.
Recently there were several cases were written about in the media.
And I'm thinking, man, they're really not doing a good job.
They're not highly professional.
But then again, that's why they were caught.
There may be others that we never know.
Maybe the Chinese have some ones that are pretty embedded.
Yeah, and possibly Russians.
But I think Russia has become very sloppy, okay?
They don't produce anything that another country wants to buy.
Except oil, that's it.
Yeah, they don't make the oil.
They just take.
Of course, yes.
And Vladimir Putin probably enjoys when some of his folks are caught because he likes to scare the world.
It's part of the tactics.
Yeah.
Yesterday he said, you know, I might use a nuke.
He knows that if he uses a nuke, he will die.
He's not suicidal.
But he just likes being able to change the narrative on that.
So any thoughts we didn't cover?
A lot, right?
Yeah, I mean, we have maybe scratched the surface.
And even my becoming a Christian, the story is a whole lot longer.
My testimony is 45 minutes.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
It was a very, very methodical, slow process, as if God just told Shona, this is a woman's name, how to proceed.
Wow.
Well, praise God.
Yep.
Well, Jack Barski, thank you so much.
You're welcome.
It was a great pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Alvita Sain.
Alvita Zain, yeah.
Thank you guys.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts.
It's always freedom at CharlieKirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening.
God bless.
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