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July 5, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
58:50
Charlie Kirk Debates Trans Marxist Ben Carollo–Debate Night by TPUSA
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Marxism in America Debate 00:03:12
Hello, everybody.
Happy Tuesday.
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Today is my conversation with a trans Marxist with a very squeaky laugh about American history, Marxism, and more.
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Welcome to another episode of debate night.
We're joined by founder of Turning Point USA, Charlie Kirk, and contributor for the Young Turks, Ben Carallo.
Tonight's topic is Marxism in America.
First, First question.
Gulags and Political Systems 00:10:17
Ben, please provide your best definition of Marxism and what you believe about the topic at hand.
Yeah, most definitely.
See, when it comes to Marxism, a lot of people have misunderstanding, think that it's about particular policies.
But the reality is that it centers on the role of the state.
The belief that the state is an institution that exists to suppress the interests of one class or another, right?
Either under capitalism, that would be the dictatorship of capital, where capitalists suppress the interests of workers to the benefit of their profits.
Now, under Marxism, the state serves the purpose of basically serving the interests of workers to the benefit of, you know, well, to the benefit of the workers, to suppress the interests of the capitalists.
Because obviously, the very nature of capitalism is to lower wages, increase prices, and this has an inherent contradiction that basically squeezes the working class and it inevitably squeezes the capitalists themselves by leading to things like inflation and market crashes.
So really, the central theory of Marxism is the belief in a state that works to serve the interests of the working class, to suppress the interests of capitalism, and eventually get to the point where the need of the state itself is irrelevant.
Okay.
How much of that do you believe?
Oh, 100%.
All of it.
So you're just like a full-fledged Marxist?
100%.
So everything Marx wrote?
I mean, not necessarily every single word.
So I can understand, just so we can make this constructive.
Like, just tell me your political philosophy when it comes to Marxism.
Well, I think that really is my philosophy.
And we really have to look at not necessarily Marx, who's the theoretician, right?
Not even necessarily Engels.
We also have to look at the practitioners of Marxism, right?
So those people being like, obviously, Lenin, Mao, today.
Oh, you're a big fan of Mao.
Mao's a pretty interesting character.
How many people did he murder?
How many people did he murder?
I mean, how many people do you think he murdered?
How many people did he murder?
45 million, more or less.
And what are you getting that number from?
How about the Chinese people themselves?
Rough calculations of international organizations.
Mass graves.
What do you mean, the Victims of Communism Fund that literally puts out Nazi propaganda on a regular basis?
I'm sorry, wait.
The Victims of Communism Fund is a what group?
Puts out Nazi propaganda.
They literally have a statue.
I mean, you have to be joking, right?
You realize in the USSR, they list Nazi war deaths as victims of communism.
You're pro-Lenin, too?
Yeah, I mean, Lenin did a lot of really great things in the USSR.
They literally brought what was a feudal peasant society to be major world superpower.
How about the Ukrainian famine?
How is that?
What about the Ukrainian famine?
Like the six million people Lenin intentionally killed through forced starvation and famine?
I mean, it's pretty ridiculous to frame that as intentional, right?
Like, let's be real, right?
There was a famine, and we can argue about the mismanagement of famines, but capitalists mismanage famines all the time.
What is the problem?
Look at this Irish potato famine.
What's a kulak?
What do you think a kulak is?
I know what a kulak is.
You tell me.
You're the Marxist.
I want to know what you think.
A kulak is someone that owned a certain piece of land that was not allowed to own that same piece of land because of Lenin and Stalin's government.
And if they owned more than it, what happened to them?
And do you know what?
Okay.
Let's.
No, just answer the question.
I'm curious.
What did happen to them?
They went to a gulag.
Do you believe those exist?
Yeah, 100%.
How many people died in the gulag?
Do you know what a gulag?
No, just like more or less.
I just want to know.
Do you know what a gulag is?
Yeah, a forced labor camp, or it could be a forced death.
I mean, like the forced labor camps we have in the United States of America, which, by the way, the United States has more people under forced labor than any other country.
Where?
In our federal prison system, wait, hold on.
How'd they get to prison?
They committed crimes.
Oh, okay, so it's not forced.
They made a choice.
Are you familiar with the Google?
That's a phenomenal red herring argument you made.
I'm just curious.
I just want to know how many people died in the gulags.
No, no, no.
No, more or less.
I'm just curious.
How many people died in American prisons?
Hold on a second.
I'm just curious.
Gulags, how many people died?
I'm just curious.
Give me a number.
10 million, 15, 20, 25 million, 30 million?
You know, there's this really amazing anecdote.
It's really interesting.
You see, and 100,000.
No, no, no.
I want a number.
More or less.
Listen, listen.
Because let's talk about how they get these numbers, right?
This is a perfect example.
There's this really great story, right?
Where you have Winston Churchill talking to Stalin.
He asks, he asks, he's like, hey, how many people died in the famine?
And Stalin, obviously not wanting to talk about it, they had bigger things to deal with, like World War II.
He puts his hands up.
He puts his hands up.
And Winston Churchill walks away and says, oh, yeah, that means 10 million.
He must mean 10 million.
Now, we can obviously talk about mismanagement of famines, but if we're going to talk about mismanagement of famines, why don't we talk about the people in India that Winston Churchill killed?
Why don't we pop talk about that?
Yeah, so we're not, we're not here.
I'm happy to do a whole defense of the greatest man of the 20th century, Churchill.
I'm not going to actually do that right now.
So, was Alexander Solzhenitsyn a liar?
I don't know who that is.
You're kidding me.
You're a Marxist that don't know.
You do not know who Alexander Solzhenitsyn is.
He wrote a book called the Gulag Archipelago, which was a first-person account.
He actually was in a gulag.
Come on.
And you don't even know who he is.
You know that people that worked on I admitted that they just made up a lot of those numbers, right?
No, he lived in one, my friend.
There's a lot of people who lived in the gulags.
In fact, there's a really great.
Yeah, and so they're liars?
I mean, yeah, there's a lot of people.
Okay, so let me get this right.
Let me get this right.
So the pastor who spent a decade in a forced labor camp with one hour of sunshine a day, Joseph Bondarenko, he lied about that.
Because he wanted to just spread the gospel.
I'm curious, just kind of like what your belief is on gulags.
So we can just have like a similar.
Okay, I'll tell you, I'll give you a really great example, right?
And you see, the CIA actually ran numbers on this.
This is really interesting.
So somewhere around 10% of the people, right, that were in the gulags during their peak, which, by the way, was after a civil war in Russia, right, obviously with the white army that they had to deal with, right?
And then the World War II with Nazi Germany, right, were political prisoners.
But this is really interesting, right?
I believe it was in the Gorbachev years, they tried to do a big reformation and granted a huge amount of amnesty, granted a huge amount of amnesty to like tons and tons of people that were in those gulags.
And do you know what happened, Charlie?
Do you know what happened after that?
This is something that we have to say about the CIA documents literally.
I mean, after the liberalization of the USSR?
No, no, no.
What happened to the people that were let out of those gulags?
They wrote books like the Gulag Archipelago that brought down the USSR.
Most of them actually ended up right back in those same gulags because, this is to be very, very clear, that's their normal prison system.
That is the normal prison system that they had, just to be clear.
Because who do you think set up the gulags?
So you're trying to tell me that the people that were put in the prisons were not political prisoners?
No.
No.
So what happened to the Mensheviks?
Most of the people.
The forced imprisonment of the Mensheviks.
Well, tell me what happened.
How did Trotsky die?
What do you mean this happened?
Yeah, who killed Trotsky?
Look, look.
No, no, tell me who killed Trotsky?
Are we going to talk about economic theory?
We will.
No, but no, I'm just curious, because I'm just trying to understand.
You say you're a Leninist.
I mean, who killed Salvador Allende?
So 66 million people died in the gulags, rough estimation.
Does that not concern you?
I mean, most of those numbers are inflated.
Like, you got to really understand this.
Like, the reality is that was their normal prison system.
If you look at the mortality rate in the gulags compared to the mortality rate in American prisons at the same exact age.
So let me ask you this.
So how many people died in the Holocaust, would you say?
I don't know.
I'm not a Holocaust expert.
How about like 8 million?
Would you say that's fair?
So I know at a minimum there's 6 million Jews in the country.
So why are those numbers accurate?
Yet the Gulag ones aren't.
Well, it's very interesting that you bring that up because the truth of the matter is, if you look at the people, right, if you look at the de-Nazification of Western Europe, what you end up having is you have a lot of people, like, for example, right, like Nazi government officials that get put in charge of West Germany, right?
Then you have Nazi officials that get put in charge of institutions like NATO.
And then you have a lot of these Nazis that quite literally set up institutions who put out information.
What do you got information?
Like, name one, name one person.
Look at the first commander of NATO.
Literally, look at the first NATO commanders.
They literally brought in people from Nazi Germany.
Are we going to pretend that Operation Paperclip is not a thing that the United States did?
Operation Paperclip was in conjunction with Operation Mockingbird, which was a CIA propaganda campaign, which I don't quite answer the question of the accuracy of gulags.
Anyway, that's a little bit of futile.
I'm just trying to understand, though, like maybe we're just on different planets here, quite honestly, because I've actually met countless thousands of people that were in these gulags and their stories and their first-hand perspectives, and they did nothing wrong to be put in there except had the different political viewpoints, or they were pastors.
And then you embrace a political worldview that does that.
Well, let's take this, for example.
Let's imagine that you're a serial murderer in the USSR, right?
Let's imagine, and then you go to the gulag, right?
What's that?
I'm not imagining.
I'm talking about pastors.
I'm talking about.
No, no, no, no.
Because that is the reality.
Because, like, if you want to know, it's not the reality.
There's funny documentaries.
Like, look, for example, right?
For example, okay.
So Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Europe did this really great interview session where they literally went to people that were in these gulags.
And it was so funny because when Radio Free Europe puts out this video about, oh, these people who used to live in the gulags, they asked them, oh, what did you think about Stalin?
And they basically said, because remember, right?
You remember that the USSR was invaded by the Nazis, right?
And you also remember that.
Yes, and then they deterred the invasion.
You also remember that the USSR swaps out all of Ukraine.
You also realize the Civil War.
The Civil War was between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks because they couldn't determine what blend of communism they wanted after they overthrew the Romanov dynasty, right?
But you also had the White Army.
Do you know what the White Army is?
I'm very familiar with the White Army.
You know, the Royalists, the people that were, of course, close on this topic.
But are you going to reinforce for the audience here?
Which is a civil war in your country.
I know the United States doesn't like to jail insurrectionists.
Remarkably, you just made an argument that was pro-gulag.
And yeah, they had a prison system.
That's what I mean.
It kind of does explain some of your other views because we're just living on different planets, like Team Reality, Team Narnia.
So how is our prison system better?
Civil War and White Army 00:03:29
Hold on a second.
For example, you got a lawyer.
We have an independent judiciary.
You have a jury of your peers.
You know what a show trial is?
What is a show trial?
Judiciary.
What's a show trial?
What's a show trial?
I don't know.
Ask Stephen Donziger.
Who is General Tukachevsky that Samuel took up?
Steven Donziger.
You think the United States doesn't do show trials?
Look at Guantanamo.
What are those?
Hold on a second.
What you're trying to do is indict the entire Western legal tradition and conflate it with the Leninist, Stalinist, we're going to kill half the population we don't like.
Look, what you're trying to do is you're trying to take a country that had to deal with a civil war that had to deal with an invasion and compare that to the United States today.
I'll close with this.
You are defending genocide, which is quite honestly a remarkable thing to see in real time.
You are defending genocide of Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Lenin.
That's not clear.
The intentional destruction and killing of 65 million people.
This is what I'm talking about.
And no, there's no middle ground in genocide.
That's your opinion.
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Moving on.
Has there ever been a successful example of Marxist theory in action where the workers are truly empowered?
Yeah, 100%, most definitely.
Like, so, first and foremost, we have obviously the brave Vietnam soldiers that defended themselves, defended themselves against the invading American army, which was basically there to punish them for daring to free themselves from French colonial rule.
Origins of the Chinese Virus 00:08:22
Wait, so hold on.
How did that work out?
And what do you mean?
How did that work out?
So, I mean, so no, seriously, the Ho Chi Minh City under communist rule.
Better than or better now?
What do you mean, better than or better now?
Was it is Ho Chi Minh a better place under Viet Cong rule or better now under more kind of Western rule?
Who do you think is in charge of Vietnam right now?
I mean, it's a generally much freer country than it was 60 to 50, 60 years ago.
Oh, that's weird.
When did the Communist Party lose power in Vietnam?
Hold on, they've industrialized their country, they've opened themselves up international trade, they actually have fair and free elections.
Like, I'm not going to say Vietnam's a perfect country, but post-Viet Cong rule, their standard of living has increased.
So, you think that's a good thing.
Maybe perhaps Ancient Orange had something to do with some of the struggles that he had.
They think that maybe the sanctions from the United States of America cutting off supplies to food maybe have something to do with the people.
Okay, got it.
So, America's always a villain.
So, besides the Viet Cong, which is a new one, I'll be honest, where else has communism worked?
China.
Look at China.
Okay, what about China works with?
Aside from the fact that China is the strongest economy in the world right now, there's obviously the fact that average wages in China have tripled over the past decade.
So, before we go any further, do you really want to defend the Chinese Communist Party against me?
Sure.
Okay, got it.
So, Uyghur Muslims, how do you feel about them?
So, you're pro-concentration camp?
No, not pro-concentration.
Okay, so where are the Uyghur Muslims right now?
Do you know what the East Turkmenistan movement is?
No, no, no.
Don't change topic.
I'm not discussing the same topic.
You don't know that the East Turkmenistan movement was labeled by the United States of America as a terrorist organization.
Oh, got it.
Okay, so pro-concentration inside of China.
Got it.
What about the one-child policy for 40 years?
No, no, no.
We need to stop right here because, first and foremost, you pushed earlier the double genocide theory, which, by the way, Holocaust scholars have viewed.
You are pro-genocide.
But anyway, no, Stop right here.
Saying no doesn't make it.
The double genocide theory is literally Nazi propaganda.
The whole idea was to say that the obvious, okay, mismanagement of a famine.
They're trying to equate that to the invasion and the mass murder committed by the Nazis.
They're literally Nazis that intentionally pushed that theory.
Why do you think that Israel to this very day actually has tensions with specific people in Ukraine who are pushing that double genocide theory?
Because the truth is, a famine and the mismanagement of recently.
I'm talking about in addition to mass graves, gulags, and all that.
But let's talk about the CCP.
So let's talk about the CCP.
So you're cool with the one-child policy?
It doesn't matter what I'm cool with.
The reality is...
No, no, no.
That was a policy of the CCP for years where they would murder another child if you had more than one kid.
Look, what we need to understand is that China is a democracy.
And they are going to make laws based off of their actual materials.
How are they a democracy?
Are you kidding me?
Aside from the fact that the central government has a 95% approval rating, which, by the way, before you're like, oh, but you're not going to be able to do it.
Have you been to China?
No, of course.
Oh, so you must be a subject matter expert.
I'm not.
Yeah, so it's interesting.
Okay, so their democracy.
Do they have senators or Congress?
What does it take to China?
Well, there's about 1,000 members of their National People's Congress, and then obviously they have a system of local people's concerns.
And so you don't think those elections are right?
I'm going to test you.
I'm going to test you.
What does it take to get on the ballot in China?
What is it?
A lot of money, power, and influence in killing the right people.
Oh, that's weird because it's actually illegal to spend money on campaigning in China.
There's actually very few people.
So you think that a dissident Chinese person could run up against Xi Jinping right now?
So let me ask you a question.
You're pro-CCP.
So you think it's okay?
How do you think elections work?
How do you think elections work in China?
It's very simple.
You're born into the right family.
You have connections to the right family.
You can't answer that question.
No, what's Xi Ji Ping's like?
What does it take to get on the ballot in China?
You have to have the right connections.
Yes, I do.
No.
I do know.
You can't just all of a sudden pop up.
Have you read the law?
Have you read their laws?
You have to attention.
Have you actually read through?
No, no, no, no.
You think the law actually applies to the channels?
Here's the chat.
So what happened to the Tiananmen Square?
Listen, this is the answer.
What happened to Tiananmen?
Charlie Kirk doesn't know because he has no idea how to manage it.
What happened to Tiananmen Square?
You need to get 10 signatures to get on the ballot in China.
That's it.
10 signatures.
How many people does it take to start a recall in China?
How many temples do they destroy in Tibet?
How many?
So you think you could recall Xi Jiping?
How many people do you think it takes to recognize?
Do you understand?
I have to be honest.
You are such an unbelievable fool to believe that China actually has a democracy.
Well, look, here's the thing.
They've tripled their average wages.
They've eliminated extreme poverty.
They have a mass popular support in China.
They have the strongest economy in the world.
And right now, they are not available through poverty.
More people than the population of America do not have access to clean water or toilets.
And that's your idea of lifting people out of poverty.
Let me ask you this question.
26 million people forcibly locked down in Shanghai.
Cats are being put into entire bags and murdered.
If you have COVID, that's your idea of a good society?
26 million people being forcibly locked down in China at a moment of people.
They're permanently disabled because of COVID in the United States.
How many people died in China?
I don't know.
Ask the country that designed the virus, your favorite country to see.
Where did it come from?
What do you mean, where did it come from?
Where did the virus come from?
So you've had link conspiracy theories.
Look, I don't know.
No, no, no.
No, what country did it come from?
I have a master's degree in biosecurity and biology.
So you must be so smart.
Where did the country come from?
Where did it come from?
Here's the thing, Charlie.
Listen up.
Did you know that there were American scientists working in that lab?
What's the name of the lab?
In the Wuhan.
Oh, so it came from China.
It came from China.
Yeah, it was a family.
Oh, so it's the Chinese virus.
No, it's not the Chinese virus.
What country did it come from then?
How many strains of coronavirus are?
Like, how many types of coronavirus are there?
There's plenty.
There's Omicron, there's COVID-19, there's the original strain, but it was originally developed.
No, no, see, you've listed three.
The reality is there's different types of coronaviruses that are existing in the world that exist in the world, that aren't developed anywhere.
Like, cats have their own.
No, of course, but which one was developed on the land?
Coronaviruses?
There's no, like, you think that the American scientists that were working in that same lab right next to those Chinese scientists, you think that they were secretly malicious?
No, no, you're putting words in my mouth.
Hold on.
No, no.
Did it come from a lab or not?
Or did it come from a Himalayan birth?
No, of course it didn't come from a lab.
Oh, you think it didn't come from a lab?
No, yeah, because I live in a real world.
I live in a real world, okay?
I live in the real world.
You understand that every single person worth their assault looks at the strain and they understand that this was bioengineered in a lab.
Fauci himself agrees to that.
What do you think?
What do you think would pro tell me?
Because apparently you're the biologist here, right?
How do you say that?
Well, I do know what a man and a woman is.
Do you?
Tell me the difference.
Tell me the difference.
Okay.
Tell me the difference between how do you tell the difference between a man-made virus and a non-man-made virus?
There's a lot.
Sequencing, everything from how it's compiled, mRNA type technology.
So according to the type of sequences.
According to Anthony Fauci's own emails to Hugh Albatross on January 31st, on Friday evening, he said, quote, this has every single marker of a man-made laboratory-created virus.
That's Anthony Fauci's own declassified emails, the CDC and the NIH.
Not to mention the thousands of other scientists that have looked at the strain, and they say the way that the proteins are correlated, the way that this is put together.
Wait, wait, wait.
What do you mean?
Proteins are correlated?
The way that it's put together.
You're just throwing words together.
Okay, see, my language might be a little sloppy, but the people that understand the actual sequencing are.
Because you didn't go to bio school and you don't know what you're talking about.
Hold on a second.
So you think that.
Where did the virus come from then exactly?
What do you mean, where did the virus come from?
Tell me where it came from.
Yeah, well, so this is really interesting, right?
See, because the type of virus that it is, right?
Little RNA viruses, they recombine a lot.
That's one of the really interesting things about these types of viruses.
And so what happens is when you have a couple of different strains that infect the same species at a time, the way the virus reconstructs itself, which to be clear, we don't necessarily have a full understanding of how exactly that happens.
But the reality is one of the central theories is this random assortment process where if you have multiple strains of a virus that is infecting one thing at a time, which is one of the reasons why bats in particular, because they're capable of being able to do that.
Because they're capable of being a lot of people.
Man, I got a serious question.
There are many different strains.
I have a question.
Are you on CCP payroll?
Because I don't think a sane individual could believe this.
I wish.
You think I got that kind of money?
Well, he wants to be a CCP agent.
You think I like, you really?
You think I, though, you think China is funding me?
That's how, like, that's so disconnected from the world.
Cultural Marxism in North Korea 00:17:29
Well, no, I'm just going to be honest.
No rational person could believe the stream of absolute nonsense that you are.
You have to be paid for this.
Like, you're kind of like a walking hologram of insanity.
I don't know what to tell you, buddy.
Like, but I just hope it's worth it.
It sounds more like you're talking into a mirror at this point.
No, actually, you're the one that's defending the murderous genocidal CCP and the murderous genocidal Lenin.
What was this?
Okay, tell me this then.
Yeah.
What was the biggest genocide that ever happened in world history?
The biggest genocide, and it depends how you define a genocide.
I would say Stalin's intentional massacre or Mao's intentional massacre for 65 to 70, 70 million people.
I don't know, 70 million?
Yep, intentional death.
What about the 200 million people that used to live on this continent?
Oh, you mean the people that died of natural causes?
You think what 200 million people are you talking about?
You're talking indigenous.
You think there were 200 million people before we came here?
Yeah.
All living at once.
Yeah.
Where on earth do you get that number?
What do you mean?
From anthropologists.
So you think we killed them all?
From anthropologists.
Of course we killed them all.
So we killed 200 million people intentionally.
Yes.
You think, so just to be very clear, right?
You're sitting here denying the genocide of indigenous folks.
Do you know who Teddy Roosevelt is?
Oh, you think Teddy Roosevelt's a mass murderer?
Yes, Teddy Roosevelt is a mass murderer.
What do you think those rough riders did?
Who do you think they were killing?
They won the war in Cuba.
What war?
What war?
The war against the commies in Cuma.
You know that.
Wait, hold up.
They won war against communists in Cuba.
Who's in charge of Cuba right now?
Well, the communists.
Oh, so they didn't win the war then?
Well, they won a battle.
Oh, they won a battle.
Wait, we've gone from one war to a battle.
They won the Spanish living in reality.
They won the Spanish-American War in the world.
Okay, okay.
So let me ask you a question.
Like, who else did he go to war against?
Well, Teddy Rosa actually won a Nobel Peace Prize for brokering peace between Russia.
They don't care about the Nobel Peace Prize.
You don't care about much.
Honestly, that's real.
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How are an individual's wants and needs represented best in a Marxist society?
Oh, so I'll ask the commie.
Obviously, through their democratic structure.
Like the reality is, right, this is the thing, right?
Obviously, going back to the role of the state to serve the interests of the working class to suppress the interests of capitalists, which is exactly why people like Charlie Kirk obviously are very unsettled with it.
Because the reality is that in America, working class people have to worry about the government kicking down their door for doing things like smoking marijuana.
But in China, it's not the working class people that have to worry about, you know, the government kicking down their doors.
It's corrupt billionaires that have to worry about the government kicking down their doors.
Just look, for example, giant tech companies making tons and tons of money in China with very little regulations.
Well, what does China do?
They put in tighter regulations on these tech companies, and then they take money from these tech billionaires, and then they give it to anti-poverty programs across the more rural parts of China in order to fund schools, food, things like that.
Like, for example, China's this really, really great co-op development program, which is really, really great.
So they combine ecological.
I can tell you.
They combine.
You've got to be acting at this point.
Why do you think I'm acting?
Is it because you're acting?
No, it's because the reality is so different of the millions of people in China that are literally forcibly held in their homes, the millions in concentration camps, the people that can't even breathe because the air quality is so bad.
How about the underground Christians that are murdered in the streets for trying to go to church?
So, no, continue on your beautiful like co-op in Beijing.
Like, yeah, we could grow vegetables in Shanghai, so it's so great.
That's kind of the argument, right?
Look, what are we talking about?
Vegetables in Shanghai.
You're assuming that this is Shanghai.
Obviously, Shanghai is like a giant urban city, right?
The cooperative development, which is really cool, by the way, they're combining ecological restoration with these cooperative developments.
So, and with the schools in there, they have a requirement that the schools buy a lot from the local farms, right?
60% of the food, right, that they serve in the schools basically comes from local farms.
So, if you're talking about meeting people's needs, right?
The farmers there have a need for like, you know, economic development, right?
So, if you buy from the schools, if you buy the food from those farmers, that puts money into their pockets, and then they literally take that food and give it back to the school kids so the school kids can have a full belly while they're trying to learn.
And this is the reality, Charlie.
Like, you got to understand, like, if you think China is so dystopian, how come the incarceration rate in the United States is so much higher than China?
Well, because we have a rule of law and they kill dissidents that break the rule of law.
Tell me, tell me dead people then.
Tell me how these people should show up.
Tell me about Foxconn.
What about Foxconn?
What do you know about it?
What about, you mean, you mean the crony plot that basically bulldozed an entire town in Wisconsin, kicking people out of their homes for a factory that never happened.
In China.
What about Fox Connect?
So do you know they have to put up nets to try to prevent people from jumping out of their buildings?
So an American company was trying to get a newspaper.
Hold on, you know, they took those.
A Chinese Communist Party partnership sponsored by Xi Jinping himself and his entire regime.
So when you go to China, let me just tell you, you'll drive down the street and you will see dead people laying in the middle of the street.
You will see people defecating.
Go to China then.
Go to China.
Take a video.
Actually, you know what?
Go to China.
Unlike you and these cameras right now.
Unlike you, my wife lived in China for six months and she'll show you the videos.
She'll show you the images.
They don't have a regard for human life.
They don't value people as the individual.
We're the ones letting people die of coronavirus.
Hold on a second.
The reality of China is that if you disagree with the government, you disappear.
Like Jack Monk.
Yeah, if you disagree.
If you disagree.
Oh, because that was his only thing he just disappeared.
Or if you're a dissident millionaire.
Like the Uyghur Muslims.
You get put in re-education camps where we have drone footage of people that are forced to eat pork against their religious conscience.
You're talking about the East Turkmenistan movement.
No, I'm talking about the Uyghur Muslims that you're trying to spin in some sort of weird.
Look, what does he do to Tibet, though?
No, no, no.
So the Associated Press, the Associated Press actually went to Xinjiang, right?
Which, by the way, anybody can go to Xinjiang if you want.
You know, I'm not allowed into China, right?
Right?
Okay, sure.
No, I'm not.
If I go to China, I get arrested.
Great society.
Okay, cool.
Then somebody else go.
Because people did.
Somebody felt like I was going to go to the house.
It's a wonderful place.
But Westerners aren't allowed to do it.
You can.
How come the Associated Press went to Xinjiang?
No, they asked.
They want the right journalists to go.
But if someone like me were to show up, you think that the Associated Press is out there carrying water for China?
Hold on a second.
The Associated Press also wrote in other articles that these were quasi-concentration camps.
Yeah, yeah.
So like concentration camps.
Like this thing, the Associated Press fundamentally has like this right-wing bias, right?
Like that's just ultimately the reality of the Associated Press.
Because, right, like who, who are funding Western journalists?
Where do Western journalists get money?
Is it maybe through capitalist institutions that have, you know, like their own friends, right?
Like, so let's think about this for a second.
Let's think about this for a second, right?
So they, Associated Press, actually goes and they write an article and they talk about it.
Because the reality is we can have, if we want to live in the real world, we can have a conversation about whether or not China was going too heavy-handed in dealing with the East Turkmenistan movement, which is a terrorist movement.
But a lot of Uyghur Muslims, even in Xinjiang, are happy that now they can finally drink alcohol without having to worry about bombing attacks and stabbing attacks.
Now we can have a conversation about whether or not they were too heavy-handed, about whether or not they're racially profiling.
The propaganda is in the reality of the world.
Let's have a conversation about concentration camps.
Like, you know, maybe we shouldn't be forcing them to eat pork against their religious conscience.
You know, murdering a lot of them is probably wrong.
There's really not a conversation to be had.
Like, you're defending concentration camps.
I think they're wrong.
If there's a major terrorist movement in the United States, how do you think we should respond to that?
A major terrorist movement.
Well, they get, actually, I can tell you exactly how it happens.
Like, when the Boston bombers tried to bomb in Boston, they got...
No, no, no.
That's an individual.
That's an individual bombing.
Okay.
Yeah, so when ISIS pops up, they still get, if they're American citizens, they get due process rights.
How do you think?
Really?
American citizens get due process rights.
Tell them to tell all the Americans that we drone striked in the Middle East.
Hold on a second.
No, wait.
You mean Americans on American soil?
That's what you asked.
So it's not like a hypothetical.
Okay, well, I'm not going to keep on talking about it.
Let's say we get a whole lot of people.
Let's say we get a whole ISIS.
I just want to tell them.
I want to ask.
I want to ask what, if they're American citizens, they get due process constitutional rights.
Do they?
Really?
So, yeah, I mean, Timothy McVay got a trial.
Truly, the Supreme Court just took away Do they not know?
Literally, just to poke away people's rights.
Sandy's got new evidence in themselves.
The Parkland shooter got a trial.
The Buffalo shooter gets a trial.
We know that, Maria.
Yeah, because they're white supremacists.
Of course, white supremacists are going to get a trial.
What about the Tsar Nevsky?
What about the Tsarnev brothers?
The Tsarnev brothers, the Boston bombers, did they get a trial?
Yeah, they got a trial.
So you just disprove your own.
I'm talking about individual terrorist.
Where does cultural Marxism fall under your ideology?
Cultural Marxism is literally a Nazi conspiracy theory.
Like, literally, like, literally, the Nazis in Nazi Germany invented the phrase cultural Marxism.
The fact that you're asking me about it is a pretty telling to who you are.
Oh, you think I'm a Nazi?
Most definitely.
I mean, at this point, like, you've made it pretty clear.
Why am I a Nazi?
You ask me questions about cultural Marxism.
That's literally...
Like, so in case you ask you who is cultural Marxist.
Who's Antonio Gramishi?
Okay.
Gramsci.
I'm telling you, Gramsci.
Who is he?
Why are you bringing Gramsci into this?
No, no, but just tell me who he is.
The Italian socialist.
Yeah.
So what coin, what phrase did he coin?
I don't know.
You tell me.
Cultural Marxism.
Oh, okay.
Was he a Nazi?
Okay.
No, Antonio.
Oh, so maybe it didn't come from the Nazis.
Okay, literally.
So why would you say something so false when Gramsci himself came up with the phrase?
Do you know what the conspiracy theory is around cultural Marxism and why it got so popular in Germany in the 1930s?
So let's go back to Gramsci.
What did he write about cultural Marxism?
I don't know.
I'm not familiar with all of his.
Yeah, you're not familiar because you just keep on spouting out these things that call people Nazis, which is super unhelpful and not true.
And so, yeah, Antonio Gramsci from prison said that Marxists must adopt a cultural framework alongside an economic framework in order to get the means of what they want to get done.
That's not a conspiracy theory.
Just read his book.
Okay, but that's different than the phrase cultural Marxism.
What do you mean?
How is it different?
It's exactly the same thing.
No, it's not exactly the same thing.
So what happened is in Nazi Germany, they spread this theory called cultural Marxism.
They literally had this theory that Jewish people were secretly like bringing Marxist theory into the mainstream.
And literally, that's not at all what anybody on the right talks about.
Are you kidding me?
What about that guy who literally just murdered a bunch of people talking about great replacement people?
You're telling me that Tucker Carlson doesn't talk about that on a regular basis?
Hold on a second.
So, first of all, the Buffalo Shooter is disgusting and it's awful.
And he was more of like a weird leftist than anything on the right.
If you actually read what he wrote, he called himself a left-wing authoritarian, which sounds more like you, by the way, than me.
Let me finish talking.
The Nazis participate in the future.
Secondly, on the left, too, buddy.
Secondly, what is cultural Marxism?
Cultural Marxism is developing a cultural framework of deconstructionism or postmodernism to try to break ourselves from the shackles of the Western tradition so that we can embrace the nonsensical economic ideas that you believe in.
That's not a conspiracy theory, it's reality.
And it was written by Gramsci himself.
And if you're not familiar with those writings, well, then you're not really equipped to talk about cultural Marxism.
You just keep on like, conspiracy theory.
Like, yeah, actually, you're wrong.
Like, go to the roots.
Sure, buddy.
Sure.
Is that your response?
Sure.
Thank you, Ben.
Thank you, Charlie.
How do people in a Marxist society overcome oppression?
Yeah, well.
They leave.
Okay, sure.
So why don't you live in a Marxist country?
I'm just curious.
Why don't I live in a Marxist country?
Well, I mean, aside from the fact that I was born here and I would like the United States to be a better place, the reality is, like, when it comes to overcoming oppression, I mean, just look at, once again, Vietnam, right?
Vietnam invaded by the United States.
Is that not oppression?
Or what about, like, what about North Korea, for example?
In North Korea, we killed one out of every five people in their entire country.
Is not the very minimum of evicting colonizers and evicting imperialist armies?
Hold on a second.
Why did we invade Korea?
Why did we invade Korea?
I'm asking you.
No, you tell me.
Because the truth of the matter is their economy, like, so first and foremost, they were like, obviously, Imperial Japan was occupying Korea.
Then you have the socialists that liberate Korea from Imperial Japan.
Then you have all of these powers coming in in the middle of Korea at the end of World War II and ended up splicing it up.
So the reality is, one of the reasons why we invaded Korea is because we were deeply upset that anybody anywhere in the world would be socialist.
Because do you think Korea is going to like invade the United States?
So let me ask you a question.
They were about to invade.
Where is it a better place to live?
Seoul, South Korea or Pyongyang, North Korea?
I don't know.
It depends on who you are.
You believe there's not even a question of who, like an average everyday worker, Pyongyang, North Korea or Seoul, South Korea, right now?
It really depends on who you are.
Ask poor people in South Korea how they're feeling about their system of government.
They are kissing the ground every day that they are.
No, why are there so many defectors that defect from North Korea that then defect back to North Korea?
Name one.
What do you mean?
I'm not going to list them off by name.
Name one.
I mean, you can just Google it.
Oh, you can Google it.
Have you ever heard of Yemeni Park?
Yeah, yeah.
What about her?
What about her?
Do you want to know?
The young lady whose father was murdered, she was sold into sex slavery, barely escaped to China, came to America to tell us what's really going on in North Korea?
Okay, buddy.
Like, why is she doing conferences with the Heritage Foundation?
Because she'll go to anyone that will listen to her a first-hand perspective.
So hold on a second.
Or maybe perhaps.
North Korea is game.
Did you know that there's like a whole game show in South Korea where they bring on defectors and they're incentivized, right?
The more like over the top their story is, the more over the top their story is, right?
The more they get paid, right?
The more they keep getting brought on these shows.
So the reality is, nobody's going to say that North Korea is a perfect place to live.
Nobody's going to say that.
Nobody's going to say that there aren't terrible things.
It is hard.
But the reality is there's explicit financial incentives for people to inflate stories about.
Let me give you an example that isn't a financial incentive.
Okay, sure.
You look from space at night on South Korea and North Korea.
North Korea is dark, and South Korea has lights all over.
Do you think that has anything to do with the sanctions that the United States has on North Korea?
It's North Korea that has imposed a lot of sanctions on the West as well.
They develop nuclear technology against us.
North Korea could make some choices against us immediately.
Immediately.
Who are their major economic trade partners?
China?
Iran?
Okay, okay, two.
You've named two.
Yeah, China and Iran.
That's about it.
No one else will really trade with them.
They're a pariah state.
Why?
Why is North Korea a pariah state?
Because they murder their own citizens and re-educate them.
Or maybe because the United States is not...
Because they have gulags all across North Korea.
Maybe it's because the United States has gone out of its way to make sure that every country that we deal with isn't allowed to trade with the people.
Let's finish the point.
So maybe that has an impact on economic.
Our intervention in Korea helped create South Korea and make sure that the entire Korean peninsula wasn't going to be able to do it.
What happened in South Korea in the 90s?
How do they treat disabled people?
Because here's the thing.
Let me finish.
They literally, you want to talk about concentration camps.
Let me finish.
South Korea was putting people in concentration camps.
They were putting disabled people.
They were so patently ridiculous.
Let me finish.
Thanks to America's intervention, 100 million South Koreans right now live in a free, democratic society.
Absent America's intervention.
The society is democratic.
They would be all like North Korea, which they are poorer, they are unhappier, they have no freedoms.
Do you support the freedom?
What about freedom of speech?
Do you support the freedom of speech?
They have freedom of speech in Pyongyang.
Do they have freedom of speech in South Korea?
Of course they do.
Really?
Why?
They're deleting Pyongyang at all.
Of course they do.
See, it's actually illegal to say positive things about North Korea in South Korea.
So I thought you like, you just said they have freedom of speech, but you don't even know basic laws.
Hold on a second.
You don't know basic laws.
There's probably a pretty good reason for that, but quite honestly.
Oh, so wait, they have a good reason.
So like, for example, again, like it's a general defense.
Can you empower them?
You're against freedom of speech then.
You're against freedom of speech.
Can you start new companies like Hyundai and Samsung?
Yes.
Can you empower entrepreneurs?
Do you have the rule of law?
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
All of that in South Korea.
In North Korea, you can't own property.
You can't say anything good, bad, or indifferent.
You are silenced by force in North Korea.
Vaccines, Religion, and Society 00:05:28
How come they have a lower incarceration rate than we do?
Who in North Korea?
Yeah.
Oh, you trust the North Korean numbers.
Everybody's incarcerated.
We're not talking about the North Korean.
The country is incarcerated.
Everybody's face numbers about North Korea.
Everybody in North Korea is incarcerated by platitudes.
No, it's not.
The whole country is an open-air prison system.
Okay, sure.
Is there room for religion in Marxism?
Yeah, most definitely.
100%.
Like, for example, right?
Like, let's take people like Fidel Castro, right?
Fidel Castro is Catholic, right?
And he was one of probably the best Marxists out there, right?
There's a reason why people like...
He slaughtered 15,000 people with firing squads.
There's a reason why people like Nelson Mandela referred to him as like an inspiration and a friend, right?
So are you against Nelson Mandela?
Do you think part of his ideology was terrible?
He was a communist, but part of it was good.
But Nelson Mandela was a communist.
I'm not going to.
Oh, okay.
He was.
Okay.
So like the reason why.
His advocacy against apartheid was great, but his economic views were terrible.
There's actually a really great religious philosophy.
I don't know if you're familiar with liberation theology, for example.
Actually, one of the reasons why the CIA went into places like El Salvador to murder people was because liberation theology was so popular, right?
Basically the idea that like under Christianity, right?
Like, you know, Jesus was sort of the God who riots, right?
Who goes out of his way basically to stand up for people who are oppressed, goes out of his way to stand up for people who are marginalized, right?
He literally said the meek shall inherit the earth.
In fact, the only people that Jesus ever said wouldn't go to heaven were rich people.
He never said that.
He literally did.
It's a misquotation.
He said it's harder to get into heaven.
And by the way, if you go back to the actual Koine Greek, it is lover of money, not rich.
But that's fine.
You're not totally wrong.
Okay, right?
So like the reality is, the reality is, like, there are tons of different religions that are like completely compatible with Marxism.
And there's nothing inherently against it.
Now, Marx had specific theories about religion.
He said it was the opiate of the masses.
He said it's the opiate of masses, which a lot of people misinterpret, right?
A lot of people misinterpret.
See, what Marx meant by that was that, you know, religion plays a very critical cultural role in alleviating pain and suffering that marginalized people feel, which is very understandable, right?
Like if you're struggling in a very difficult world, like obviously turning to religion, believing that there's a higher power, believing that even in your difficult circumstances, that if you work hard and you be the best person you can be, there's going to be an afterlife waiting for you where you'll be able to live in peace, right?
Like none of that is contradictory to capitalism, but it is about the reality, or none of that is contradictory to Marxism.
But it's central to this reality is the idea that so many people, they only have religion as an outlet for self-expression because capitalism forces people into such brutal conditions.
Capitalism forces people into what conditions?
Brutal conditions.
Such as?
Such as, are you kidding me?
There's literally right-wingers out there that are calling for child labor to be brought back.
Are we not going to talk about the people?
You were supporting the CCP and they're like the heart of child labor in the world.
So like, don't give me that.
Child labor is illegal in America.
So how is that exactly the case?
Look, where was China 20 years ago versus where's China?
And they got rich largely because we offshored our labor.
So hold on, let's be very clear about the China stuff before I go back to another point I want to make.
China got rich off of our deindustrialization and a massive labor arbitrage because they could undercut our wages.
And whose fault is that?
Of course it's our own fault.
That's not the point.
The point is that it wasn't because of the brilliance of Xi Jinping.
It was because of the treachery and their ability to exploit their own citizens as pseudo-slaves to go make a bunch of plastic and fentanyl and bring it back into the West.
See, but this is the same thing.
They don't create new stuff.
They don't start new companies.
They simply just say we have more people.
Are you telling me that Huawei, are you telling me Huawei is the same?
They're a bunch of stuff.
They steal Western technology.
Then who's sending vaccines all over the world?
Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Johnson, and Johnson and Madurai.
Really, because the United States is sending that many vaccines.
I hope we don't send that many vaccines, but I mean, like, okay, literally last year, China was half of all the vaccines that they made around the world.
They were sending to other countries, like half of all the vaccines that they made.
There's a lot of people that are vaccinated today, specifically because of the hard work and dedication of people in China.
I hope nothing happens to them.
I wouldn't trust the Chinese vaccine, let alone a Pfizer vaccine.
But yeah, so I just want to get to this.
I have a more interesting, I think, more important question.
Do you think human beings are naturally good?
Human beings are naturally social, right?
Which means that human beings could be good or evil, right?
The reality is that, like, what makes us good is also what makes us evil, right?
Because the reality is, like, what would you do for your family, right?
A lot.
You would do a lot, right?
I think we would all basically do anything for our families.
And that is both what makes us so capable of goodness and kindness, but it's also what makes us so capable of vicious evil.
Because the reality is, if we thought that people were threatening our families, we would do a lot of terrible things, right?
But if we work together with other people and other families and we extend our minds to understand that we have a shared sort of societal experience, then we're going to do a lot of good things for each other.
So ultimately, when it comes to whether or not human beings are good or evil, we're just naturally social.
We want to fit in and be part of a society.
So ultimately, it really depends on the way society is structured that determines whether or not we end up being good or evil.
But it is all basically from us being pro-social.
Slavery and the Constitution 00:09:12
So why is it that every civilization encounters the same problems then, regardless of its circumstances?
When do you mean every civilization?
What do you mean the same problems?
What do you think these problems are?
Oh, I'll articulate it.
From the Aztecs to the Incans to the Mayans to the Egyptians, the Indus River Valley, to the Chinese Empire, the British Empire, Till the Hun, to Genghis Khan, to Julius Caesar, to the Greek or Roman Empire, they all go through the same sort of cycle.
Where they start to allocate power to a lesser and lesser group of people.
They start to then create a pseudo-dictatorship under the false promises of empowering people.
And then the cycle of selfishness, murder, strife, division, famine continues to an end.
And the only thing that ever broke that cycle was the West.
The only thing that ever broke that.
Okay, A, how come the Iroquois Confederacy didn't have those problems?
Oh, so tell me about the Iroquois Confederacy and the great contribution to humanity they made.
I mean, do you like the United States Constitution?
Oh, you think that our Constitution is derived by the Iroquois Confederacy?
I mean, ask Benjamin Franklin.
He would admit it very directly and explicitly.
He didn't write the Constitution.
It doesn't matter, right?
All of the founding federalists.
No, it actually does matter.
No, no.
So let me tell you, if you have a question.
Ask James Madison.
Yeah.
So let me get this.
What Federalist paper is the Iroquois Confederacy mentioned in?
It doesn't matter the Federal Papers.
Because it really wasn't an inspiration.
The Federalist papers were the only thing that were written back then?
No, but it was the most...
Hamilton, Madison, and Jay went through private musings of why they wrote the Constitution.
And do you think they didn't care what Benjamin Franklin would say?
So I want to make sure I understand this right.
So the Iroquois Confederacy, you think, is where we got separations of power, separated powers, consent of the governed, independent judiciary, and consent to the governed.
Not the pilgrim colonies or the Bible or the Mayflower Compact or the Magna Carta or the writings of Augustin Aquinas, Hume, Burke, Locke.
None of the people were alive at the time.
John Locke, look, where do you think these people said that they got their ideas?
Like, the reality is, why do you think the Enlightenment came after all of these colonizers started visiting people in North America?
Oh, so you believe in this weird, unfounded mystical belief that we stole it.
This is actually a very standard understanding of world history.
If you have even a marginalized advantage.
So you think that John Locke stole from indigenous people?
Are you kidding me?
All of the Enlightenment philosophers stole from indigenous votes.
So what did Kant steal from the Indigenous people?
Like, are you kidding me?
The categorical imperative came from some tribesmen.
No, not the categorical imperative.
They don't have to necessarily steal every single person.
So let me get this.
Machiavelli, what did he study?
Because we didn't colonize when Machiavelli started writing.
Well, Machiavelli is a really interesting character.
No, what did he steal from indigenous people?
I mean, I wouldn't say that, like, Machiavelli to mine is saying he didn't really interact with people like Indigenous folks.
Okay, so nothing there.
How about Aquinas?
What did he steal from Indigenous people?
What do you think these people, like, like, this is the thing?
This is the whole mythology of the people.
No, no, no, but just fill out your argument, please.
Like, prove it.
Give specifics because it's rather critical, right?
So, like, what did Aquinas steal from indigenous people?
Like, okay, you're naming random people.
I'm not saying that.
No, no, they're not random people.
Okay.
Did Aquinas write the Constitution?
Aquinas inspired every single founding father.
They all read it.
They knew it backwards and forwards.
John Adams said no individual, theorist, or author was more instrumental to my metaphysical worldview than Thomas Aquinas.
That's because, look, look, are we going to ignore the fact that the founding fathers were incredibly racist?
Do you think that they were...
No, okay, so you think they were racist?
Of course they were racist.
So then why did they try to abolish?
Why did George Washington get his teeth?
Okay, so how many states decided to make the Northwest Territory?
Answer this question.
Answer this question.
Where did George Washington get his teeth?
They were blended individuals, no doubt, mixed.
But you know what you and I both have in common?
No, no, I want to answer the question because I want to make sure that your audience is a lot of people.
I would assume that he probably got them.
So to make him look bad, you're going to say he got him from a slave or he exploited somebody.
But here's the truth about George Washington.
He took his teeth out of people's heads while they were alive.
He ripped teeth.
Here's the truth about George Washington outside of your Nicole Hannah-Jones highly emotive argument.
Everybody has something in common.
We're born into a world we didn't create.
And every one of these founding fathers were born into a world where slavery was everywhere.
By the time they died, it was on its way out.
Do you know what Thomas said about moral good?
It wasn't on its way out when they were all dead.
Hold on a second.
How many states abolished slavery by the time the Constitution was abolished slavery by 1787?
Nine out of 13.
So a majority of states had already abolished it.
Northwest Territory.
Why did they structure the Constitution in such a way to give slave states more representation?
I'm happy to walk through it.
Northwest Territories, first act of Congress, free or slave, slave area?
Free.
Unanimous.
Article 6 of the Northwest Territory.
First state to abolish slavery.
Vermont, 1777, inspired by the writings of the Declaration.
First anti-slavery convention, 1775, chaired by Benjamin Franklin.
When is slavery?
George Washington said, it's not a question of if.
It's a matter of when we abolish slavery.
Thomas Jefferson admonished King George in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence.
That means very much saying that slavery is a great evil that we blame King George for Thomas Jefferson abolished slave trade into a world for telling them they couldn't keep killing indigenous folks.
Thomas Jefferson said very clearly in the Virginia House of Commons in 1790 that we must abolish slavery.
He abolished the importation of new slaves as one of his first act of president in March of 1807.
The founding fathers fought tooth and nail to abolish slavery.
So you have a misrepresented and intentional pile of his argument to try to misrepresent the great heroes of the founding fathers.
When they banned the inspired slaves, what happened?
What ended up happening was the slave trade went down.
Eli Whitney creates the cotton gin and a whole new debate of slavery gets reignited.
Nazi, that's actually not true, right?
The reality is, do you know what happened?
The slave trade, I guess, went down if you're talking about international trade.
The United States set up literal farms where human beings were bred.
Human beings were bred.
No, no.
Slavery was going down dramatically in the 18 teens.
Slavery.
18 teens, it's going down.
Nine out of 13 states would abolish it.
We're talking about the 1770s, and now all of a sudden we're at the 1870s.
Just what?
Thomas Jefferson was president in 1807.
So you've got to get your ears right, okay, before we talk about this.
So he was sworn in in March of 1807.
He was governor of Virginia in 1790, wrote the Declaration in 1777.
So when did slavery end in the United States?
Great question.
It began to end in 1777, a process of decoupling from an ancestral evil where we have more people in the world right now that are slaves today than back then.
The process began, 1820s, the debate reignites because of John C. Calhoun, the creation of the cotton gin.
We fight a war over it.
We win the war and slavery is abolished.
That's a pretty awesome track record for a country that inherited an evil that every other country prior to it had.
It was the West that got rid of slavery.
It was William Wilberforce.
It was John Edwards.
It was George Whitfield.
It's easy to kind of do your thing.
Like, well, it's terrible.
It's bad.
Yes, it's easy to call balls and strikes on a society you didn't create.
It's easy to try to lecture the rest of the country.
Be like, you know, these people are so terrible for something you didn't toil for or sacrifice for.
They didn't outsoil.
They were suppressed.
For what these people were slave owners in the country you get.
It was the slaves that were toiling.
They were slave owners.
Also, by the way, slavery was never abolished.
We literally have it in the Constitution to this very day.
I'm sorry, what's the 13th Amendment?
Thank you, gentlemen.
Ben, we'll hear your closing remarks now.
Yeah, fundamentally, at the end of the day, the state can work to suppress the interests of capitalists or it can work to suppress the interests of the workers.
In the United States of America today, it is clearly suppressing the interests of workers.
Just look at the difficulty that people have in terms of forming labor unions, demanding higher wages, even getting access to basic health care that even other capitalist countries have, right?
Then you have a lot of countries that have been the victims of colonialism that have states that serve the interests of the working class people.
And while they have a very difficult starting point, the reality is they are surpassing the United States now in a timeframe that is rapidly outpacing the development that happened in the United States.
So ultimately, the reality is we can choose for the government to serve the interests of the very rich few, or we can have a government that serves average working-class folks.
So I just have one question.
I'm sorry.
Do you trust the government?
This government?
No.
But once again, we have to ask the nature of the state.
But then, why would you want to make that government bigger?
No, It's not about making the government bigger.
It's about changing the fundamental structure of the government so it serves the interests of workers instead of the interests of capital.
And in fact, this is one of the things that, like the fundamental dishonesties that I think come from people like you.
You point to a capitalist government, say, look, it's not working for workers.
We should have less government and give capitalists more power.
But the reality is, right, and this is the fundamental reality, that it's the nature of the government that is the problem.
You're unwilling to admit the very fact that our government is fundamentally serving the interests of capital as opposed to serving the interests of the workers.
And that if we were to flip the system on its head, it would work a lot better.
At its best, it's the opposite.
It serves the function of the liberty of individuals, the pursuit of virtue.
Yeah, I mean, look, in closing, human beings aren't naturally good.
We're actually naturally awful to each other.
And human history shows that.
We have the same problems over and over again.
And the government needs to be strong but small.
And the founding fathers built that beautiful government that people like you are trying to destroy in a country that you refuse to leave.
Here's how you know you live in a great country: that even those who say they hate it refuse to leave.
Every person in China that would be given a chance to go out, almost every person would leave almost instantaneously.
Human Nature and History 00:01:16
Why don't they?
Because they're not allowed to.
Really?
People move to the United States from China all the time.
Those that are allowed.
Very few that are allowed.
In Venezuela, you're just banking on not knowing about millions of people that would do anything to leave these disastrous experiments.
And I have met far too many victims of communism to take any of your arguments seriously.
People that have the wounds to show it.
The pastors that were in jail for decades in the Soviet Union for doing nothing.
Like the plantation owners that had their plantations stolen.
People like Alexander Schultz Social Nitsyn that wrote about it endlessly.
The Cubans in Miami that had to build life rafts to save their own lives because of the oppressive Castro regime.
The people for Venezuela in Cuba and Argentina.
I'm going to trust them a lot more than a smug, sanctimonious person with a super bizarre laugh that read a couple things online that sound good.
Thank you, buddy.
Charlie, thank you.
Ben, thank you for coming.
Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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