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June 23, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
34:47
Created Equal—Justice Clarence Thomas in His Own Words
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Clarence Thomas Story 00:08:22
Hey, everybody.
Today on the Charlie Kirk show, Created Equal, a book about Clarence Thomas in his own words, pretty awesome conversation, and as well as Justin Olson, who is running for the United States Senate in Arizona.
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I've said for quite a while that one of the heroes of our country that gets almost no credit, and he deserves credit, but he almost demands no credit, I should say, is Clarence Thomas.
Clarence Thomas is one of the most extraordinary people alive.
He is a fighter for liberty and for the Constitution.
And we have with us the producers and the people behind the great film that everyone should see, Created Equal, and the soon-to-be released book that I think everyone should check out.
And that is Michael Pack and Mark Paletta.
Welcome, Mark and Michael, to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Thank you for having us on.
Thank you, Charlie.
So, Michael, tell us first about the movie, or actually first tell us about the book that then inspired the movie, and tell us what you have learned from the exceptional Clarence Thomas.
Well, so the way the movie came about, it's been about two years since it was released, is that a bunch of people who were friends of Justice Thomas's and knew me were concerned about how the people who hated him and the left were telling his story.
So I had not known that much about Clarence Thomas at the time, but after meeting him, you quickly realized what you said in your intro, Charlie, that he's a great American with a great story.
And I really wanted to tell it.
So after working on the film for a while, I came to the conclusion he should tell the story himself in his own words, that he and Ginny should be the only interviewers.
And I interviewed them for over 30 hours over multiple months.
You know, more, a longer interview, more access than any Supreme Court justice has ever given anyone in the history of the Supreme Court.
And we worked on the film, and it was a two-hour film.
It was released first in movie theaters till COVID knocked it out.
And then it was nationally broadcast on PBS.
And that was then streaming.
And it's still streaming for those who want to see it or missed it.
It's on Amazon, but it's on Salem and Fox Nation and Newsmax.
And you could go to our website, manifoldproductions.com for the full list of where it's streaming.
But Mark Paletta, my co-author, you know, quickly felt that there was a lot of good stuff that wasn't there.
I always tell the story that as we cut the film down from 30 hours, the first cut was nine hours.
And Mark thought that was the perfect length.
So he has spent his time since the movie lobbying for something else.
And he came up with the idea that we'd do a book based on some of the material that isn't in the film.
And as you said, Charlie, the book is 95% new material.
And again, unless you hear Clarence Thomas tell his story, you know, they're more or less most of it, except for a few of my questions and Mark's footnotes.
They're really Clarence Thomas to talking and telling you about his life and ideas.
So Mark, any thoughts on that as we get the conversation started?
Sure.
You know, I worked on Justice Thomas's confirmation back in 1991 and have been a lifelong friend of his.
And, you know, when we met Michael and who was interested in making this film, it was just a perfect convergence of folks who wanted to tell Justice Thomas's story and a filmmaker who can tell it in the right way.
And Michael is an extraordinary filmmaker, and we're blessed that he took on this project.
And as Michael said, there was just so much being cut away as we were making the movie that it would be a crime, if you will, to not have some of these exchanges sort of get out to the American people.
And I thought, you know, people watch a movie and some people, surprisingly here, watch, have watched it multiple times, but a book is something different, you know, and we've organized it in a way that's very, very accessible.
So it's chronological through his life, just like the movie, but we've broken it up in a way where you can open up the table of contents and it's, you can look at his life and sort of go to a certain part of it.
You can read it all the way through, obviously, but there's other parts where you can look at a chapter and all the subheadings, which we put a lot in, so that it's very accessible and almost like a reference book.
And it's something about a book sitting on your desk or sitting somewhere where you can look at it more and just glean Justice Thomas's wisdom and thoughts on things.
And that's why I thought it would be a great contribution to get this book out to the American public so they could learn more about Justice Thomas in his 30th year, right?
30th year on the Supreme Court.
Yeah.
So Mark, you worked with him during the confirmation fight.
That's a confirmation fight unlike any other, unless you worked on the Borker-Kavanaugh confirmation fight.
I'm sure you cover that in detail in the book.
I know you mention it in the movie.
What can you kind of tell our audience, tease our audience a little bit about that?
Because you were there front and center, but I'm sure rehearing it from his perspective, you probably learned new things.
I'm not sure I learned new things.
This has been a passion of mine in terms of clearing Justice Thomas's, you know, defending his name through all of that.
At the end of those hearings, of course, the American people believed Clarence Thomas 58% to 24%.
So that means they thought Anita Hill was lying, and that ran across both men and women.
But these were these allegations that were last minute that Anita Hill had accused Justice Thomas of talking dirty, essentially, not even, you know, it's sort of sexual harassment, but certainly no touching, all a lie.
The Senate Judiciary Committee looked into it.
It was then headed by Joe Biden at the time.
They looked into it quickly, but thoroughly, spoke to the relevant people and came back and the Senate Judiciary Committee, including Biden, said, there's nothing here.
Let's move forward with the confirmation.
But then, of course, somebody leaked it and that became the spectacle that became known as the Hill Thomas hearings, where, you know, Anita Hill made these accusations.
Justice Thomas, you know, credibly and firmly denied them.
The other witnesses there, 12, not a single person who worked with Justice Thomas and Anita Hill, believed Anita Hill.
There were 12 people who testified for Justice Thomas who had been colleagues and said nothing like this happened.
Anita Hill's not telling the truth.
She didn't have a single person who testified in her behalf that worked together with them.
She had four witnesses, very weak.
And I think the American people saw through it because they broadcast it, you know, it was throughout without the filters, right, of the corporate media to tell the story the way they want to tell it.
And at the end of those days, you know, the three days of hearings, they firmly believed overwhelmingly that Justice Thomas was telling the truth.
The name of the book is Created Equal.
Is that correct?
The same title as the movie.
Is that right?
So very quickly, Michael, in the conversations with Clarence Thomas, I mean, he has been under attack relentlessly for years.
It seems as if they've never let the Anita Hill kind of drama stop.
It's almost like that was the starting point.
Justice Thomas Truth 00:08:28
I believe they hate him because he is a black constitutional conservative and they just don't like that.
I think they consider that, and I'm going to say something they say, a race traitor.
How much do you talk about that in the book?
Because I know the theme is trying to not focus on race, created equal, but it's hard to ignore with considering how the media almost emphasizes it all the time.
Well, it is a lot in the book, and it's a lot in the film.
Of course, more in the book.
But it's amazing the amount of attacks that he's sustained since he came out as a black conservative during the Reagan administration.
It's been relentless.
And it's continued on to yesterday and the day before, really, with the attacks on Ginny.
But I am shocked, always shocked at how, just as you implied, Charlie, that their left is willing to attack him using racist stereotypes and racist tropes.
You know, they depict him in Ku Klux Klan Roves.
They depict him as a shoeshine boy to Justice Scalia.
They always call him an Uncle Tom and things that they would never say, if you could not say to a progressive black man and get away with it.
And, you know, I'm a conservative and I've been attacked, but really the attacks that black conservatives sustain is really unique.
I mean, it's particularly vicious.
I mean, I'm a conservative.
No one's ever called me a traitor to my race.
You know, they suffer in a different way.
And it's very moving to hear Justice Thomas talk about it.
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So, Mark, what is one of the takeaways from the book that you think that kind of one of our average listeners or average viewers will take away from reading this book?
What do you think will be one of their things that they'll learn that they'll take away that they might not have otherwise known about Clarence Thomas?
His amazing life, number one, from Pinpoint George up to the Supreme Court.
But as you were talking about before, in terms of, you know, the left requiring him to think a certain way, Justice Thomas really sort of in much more detail than he does in the movie or even in his memoirs, really takes on the left and the destructiveness of their policies and why it was so selfish by the left to insist on policies that don't work, that they don't care about people.
You know, we talked about the black leadership and requiring Justice Thomas to think a certain way.
The black leadership is actually out of sync with Black Americans rank and file.
Poll after poll on issue after issue, from school choice to abortion to affirmative action to defund the police.
And so it's this crazy thing, Charlie, where Clarence Thomas is a threat to them because they have power and they get a lot of money, right?
And if you go back to the confirmation, the NAACP did bizarrely oppose Clarence Thomas, but it was at the insistence of the AFL-CIO, a labor union, right, that funds the NAACP, and it provided the basis for both them and the women's groups, the pro-abortion women's groups, to attack Justice Thomas and oppose him.
But you really, you know, the movie is beautiful and powerful and it's visual, but the book is going to bring you much more inside the mind of Justice Thomas and how he's talking about issues, contemporary issues, policy issues that are out there, but on his life most especially and the lessons he's learned from these, you know, these years he's been both on the Supreme Court and in the Reagan administration.
Justice Thomas's memoirs went up to, they were published in 2007.
It's a wonderful book, but it only goes up to the time he went on the Supreme Court.
So this book talks to the justice about his judicial philosophy, about some of the cases, about his relationships with the justices like Justice Scalia.
So it's a real insight into how the court works, how cases are decided, and some of these important cases that Michael spent a lot of time talking to Justice Thomas about, like Grutter v. Bollinger, which is a race case, affirmative action case with Michigan.
But you really get to see the justice taking on his critics and talking about his life.
I just think that's so important.
America's a freer country thanks to the leadership of Clarence Thomas.
There is no doubt.
I don't think he gets the credit he deserves, and he doesn't even want it.
That's the amazing thing.
You know, he writes more opinions per year than any justice on the Supreme Court, three times as many as some of his colleagues.
So in terms of that influence and not seeking the limelight, he is out there laying down his vision of the law, originalism that is leading the court.
And we're going to see hopefully in Dobbs, where the court is coming around time and time again to Justice Thomas's views on the law.
An incredibly persuasive writer.
Michael, in closing here, I have to ask you, what does he say in the book in the movie?
I've not seen the movie.
I've been meaning to, and I encourage our audience to check it out, Created Equal, about him not asking questions very often.
What is the reason for that?
We talk to him about this in the movie and even more extensively in the book.
And it's not too late to see the film.
As I said, it's still streaming, you know, Amazon and many other places.
If you go to our website, manifoldproductions.com, you could find out how to stream it.
And it's not an either-or.
I recommend people watch the movie and read the book, which is also available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble's and wherever else books are sold.
But he does talk about that at length.
And he really feels that each advocate during oral argument gets 30 minutes, and he thinks it's their time.
And anything that any justice question or argument between the justices takes away from their time.
And he wants to give them a chance to make their case.
But maybe more importantly, as Mark was saying earlier, he talks about the process in the court.
And we are very focused on oral argument, but this is an appeals court.
And that's not the heart of what they do.
What they mainly do is write opinions, circulate them, discuss them, where Justice Thomas takes a leadership role.
As Mark said, he wrote more opinions than any other justice.
He defends them.
He talks about them.
He has a major leadership role.
Many people now call this the Thomas Court.
Of course, it's really the Roberts court, but in some ways, he's the intellectual leader.
And he just has a different view of oral argument.
I do think it's notable that now that during COVID, when it was all virtual and more orderly, Justice Thomas asked more questions.
Very good.
Created Equal, everyone.
Check it out.
It's terrific.
Justice Thomas, in his own words, I want to just say this in closing.
Every parent out there, you need to make sure your child is aware and is educated on who Clarence Thomas is.
It's one of the most amazing stories.
It really is.
Growing up in poverty and becoming a Supreme Court justice.
It's extraordinary.
Thank you both.
Created equal.
Everyone, check out a copy.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Charlie.
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With us is Justin Olson, who is running for Senate in Arizona.
I've known Justin for a couple years now, and he was our CFO at Turning Point USA and took a leave of absence to go run for Senate here in Arizona.
So, Justin, introduce yourself to our audience.
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having me, Charlie.
It's a pleasure to be here.
As you mentioned, I'm a former CFO for Turning Point USA.
I'm running for the United States Senate because I'm just extremely concerned about the future of our country.
You know, I've got nine kids.
Nine kids.
Father of nine kids.
And I want to make sure we're passing on a strong and a free country to our kids and our grandkids.
And that's why I'm running.
We've got to replace Mark Kelly and make sure that we replace him with a proven conservative.
And I'm the only candidate in this race with a proven conservative record.
So I want to make sure that we don't just beat Mark Kelly, but we replace him with someone who's not going to let us down.
We've been let down so many times.
I'm the candidate that's defunded Planned Parenthood, defunded Obamacare, voted to ban ballot harvesting, funded the border strike force, balanced budgets, cut taxes, and the list goes on.
So that's why I'm running to defeat Mark Kelly and charge up that hill to make sure that we can save our country and pass on a strong and a free country to our kids and grandkids.
Yes, so let's talk about the border.
I mean, there's been a lot of talk around the border, but very little action.
What would be your kind of plan forward as a senator to go after the borders?
Yeah, that's going to be my number one priority is to secure our borders.
On day one, as your next United States Senator from Arizona, I'm going to introduce a bill to secure our borders.
And it's not rocket science.
You know, we're going to follow the example that President Trump set.
We're going to finish the wall.
We're going to make permanent the Remain in Mexico policy.
We're going to properly fund the Border Patrol.
And most importantly, this bill would put in place a mandatory e-verify requirement for all employers across the entire country.
With these simple reforms, we can regain operational control of the border.
We can stop this chaos that's happening at our southern border that's empowering the drug cartels.
We've actually seen a 134% increase in the amount of fentanyl that's come across our border in the first year of the Biden administration.
It's got to be stopped.
It's dangerous for our communities and it's a humanitarian crisis for the immigrants themselves.
So that's my number one priority and we'll get it done.
So you live in the East Valley.
You're starting to see probably inflation crush working families as well.
What is your view of what is driving inflation?
I mean, I think Arizona might be the worst when it comes to inflation in the whole country.
Why do you think that is?
Yeah, I think that's because we've had a lot of folks moving to Arizona.
There's a lot of resources chasing very few goods and services.
You know, but the inflation is squarely due to the failed policies of the Biden administration.
He took office and immediately shut down the Keystone XL pipeline.
He announced that we're going to end drilling for natural gas and oil on public lands.
He led an all-out war on natural gas and oil on fracking.
And that drove up the price of the pump.
This cost of fuel is baked into all of our products that we purchase.
And so it is squarely due to the uncontrolled spending in Washington, D.C. That's going to be my priority number two right after immigration is getting control of this runaway inflation.
And we can do it.
You know, I was elected to the state legislature at a time when we had an unprecedented budget crisis, a $3.6 billion deficit.
The establishment said we can't balance this budget.
They pass record sales tax increases, record property tax increases.
I said, no, you know, we've got to expect more of our elected officials.
And I delivered on a promise of saying we've got to balance the budget.
That's what we've got to do in Washington, D.C. We've got to stop their reckless spending.
We've got to produce more domestic energy.
I fought and defeated the Green New Deal here in Arizona.
I'll do it in Washington, D.C. I've got the proven record.
We're going to do it.
We're going to fight for our freedoms.
We're going to fight for our economy.
We're going to fight for ending this runaway inflation and securing our borders.
So, you know, right now we have a situation where Republicans are going out of their way to pass red flag laws.
Would this even get a hearing with you, or is it just dead on arrival?
And why is it justin, so many Republicans go to D.C. and they betray their voters?
How many understand that?
Yeah, it's happened so many times.
I think that it happens because talk is cheap.
You know, folks can show up on the campaign trail and they can tell us what we want to hear.
And it happens far too many times.
We get behind folks, we get excited because they say the right things on the campaign trail in a Republican primary.
All the candidates sound the same.
They all want to secure the border.
They all want to protect the right to life.
The Second Amendment, and the list goes on.
They get elected, they become part of the problem.
They cave to the pressures.
They want to become part of the establishment.
They want to climb the ranks.
You know, that's not me.
You know, I'm the only candidate in this race.
The voters don't have to take my word for it that I'm going to fight for the Second Amendment.
I'm going to fight to secure the borders and end this runaway inflation.
They can look and see that's what I've been doing.
You know, for my work here at Turning Point as the former CFO to my public service, where I cut taxes, where I balanced budgets, where I earned an A rating from the National Rifle Association, defunded Planned Parenthood.
I'm the only candidate with this proven record of conservative successes.
So when it comes to these red flag laws, I'm going to fight against them.
You know, we should not be losing our constitutional rights without any sort of due process.
And that's what these red flags, red flags are.
And I've noticed, you know, Mark Kelly's going to probably vote for this, right?
But he's been a little quieter on the gun issue than I would have expected.
I mean, his wife was tragically shot and survived, Gabby Gifford's, but gun control has kind of been his thing.
It has.
Yeah, he's a gun grabber.
He definitely is.
Yeah.
And so it he, but even he has been a little quieter because I think he fears the voters of Arizona.
Do you agree with that?
I completely agree.
You know, he ran as an independent, ran that he's going to be this moderate, and he's been anything but, you know, he's been a rubber stamp for Joe Biden, for Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi.
And so he's trying to moderate now.
But, you know, Kirsten Sinema demonstrated what a true independent looks like.
I mean, she protected us from the worst proclivities of the Democrat Party.
Mark Kelly has not.
So now he's trying to moderate for the purposes of the election and the expediency.
It's not going to work.
The voters see through that.
Yeah, I just think Mark Kelly's super arrogant.
He's got a ton of money.
He's got $50 million.
I don't think he believes he has to do the Kirsten Cinema thing.
And so let's just kind of talk about the grassroots.
A lot of voters are so upset because they feel as if America's decline is self-inflicted.
Right.
You know, go, you know, if you were to be elected, talk about how the D.C. kind of country club is something that is a problem.
And how would you resist being kind of part of that cabal in D.C.?
Yeah, absolutely.
It is a huge problem.
I mean, we've seen it so many times, both in D.C. and in Phoenix.
I mean, we've been let down by Republicans here at the state level as well.
You know, how I resist that, it's never been part of my nature to want to go along to get along.
I've been one who wants to cut against the grain, like the great Garth Brooks song.
Sometimes you got to go busting in like old John Wayne and have the strength to go against the grain.
I mean, that's what I did in Phoenix when I fought for balanced budgets, when I fought against the Obama Medicaid expansion, when our Republican leadership was telling us that we needed to do this.
Yeah, so talk about that.
Just for our national audience, Brewer was trying to push for it and he pushed against it, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
The governor, the Republican governor, fought for it and ultimately was successful.
I was one of the few who fought diligently to stop it.
I was one of the few who fought against irresponsible spending, who fought to actually balance our budget.
But I even went beyond that and said, look, you know, Arizonans had been hit hard by the Great Recession.
So I passed successful legislation to cut our income taxes, to get the government out of the way so the economy could grow.
We got Arizonans back to work after the Great Recession.
We followed that same pattern that Donald Trump demonstrated at the federal level to be successful.
You know, he grew the economy to heights that we have not seen in the history of the world.
You know, that's what we need to be fighting for.
That's what I'll fight for in Washington, D.C.
But again, I don't just make promises.
I've kept them.
Voters can look and see I'm the candidate who's grounded in my family values.
I'm the candidate who's fought for the freedoms that we all hold dear, both at turning point and in my public service.
And I'll do it in the United States Senate as well.
Nine kids.
That's right.
I think that's more than all the other kid components combined.
I think that's impressive.
So in closing here, Justin, just tell us any other issues that are really driving and motivating you of why you're running, what you seek to fix, what you're hearing from voters.
Oh, you know, there's so many issues from the cultural issues, critical race theory, to the damaging indoctrination that's taking place in our schools.
But you know what really motivates me more than anything is the fact that the radical left wants to take our country down the path towards socialism, towards communism.
They're no longer even try to hide that fact.
They're transparent, and we know where that path leads.
We've seen every time in history that these principles of big government have been tried, they failed, and they've left a path of destruction and poverty in its wake.
And that's where the radical left wants to take our country.
I'm running for the United States Senate to stand up and protect these freedoms that made our country great.
I'm reminded of what Daniel Webster said in the 1800s when he said, Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the republic for which it stands.
For miracles do not cluster.
And that which has happened once in 6,000 years might not happen again.
So hold on to the Constitution.
For should a United States Constitution fail, there will be tyranny throughout the land.
I love our Constitution.
I love the principles established in our founding documents.
And I'm not about to stand by and watch those freedoms erode.
Some things are worth fighting for, like America, the land of the free and the home of the brave.
And that's why I'm running, to fight back and win and protect these freedoms that made our country great.
And how could people support you?
What's your website?
It's votejustinolson.com.
You can go to my website.
We're on all the social media platforms as well.
We've got a great debate coming up tomorrow with Freedom Works.
I encourage folks to watch that and look for those differences.
See who's going to be our conservative champion fighting on Capitol Hill.
Great.
Well, Justin, thank you so much for joining us.
We've worked together for a couple years, and I know you're working really hard in this race.
So thank you, Justin.
Thanks so much, Carl.
I really appreciate it.
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Instead, make the switch, patriotmobile.com slash Charlie.
I am just fascinated at how successful the alphabet mafia has been at hijacking the Democrat Party.
We know it's happened, but I just, I'm stunned.
I'm shocked.
I'm actually impressed.
I think that we can all learn something at how incredibly successful a radical fringe, degenerate movement, it's like definitionally degenerate, by the way, has been able to overtake an entire American political party.
Defining A Woman 00:03:31
And so I want to play Cut 76.
And I've said this before, but repetition is the soul of memory.
I grew up in a time, and I'm 28 years old, so it's not that long ago, where politicians on the left and activists on the left, they were so proud and clear about defending women and they could tell you what was a woman.
In fact, we went from Brett Kavanaugh being accused by saying, believe all women, to 2022, what is a woman?
Well, listen to this of the wicked witch of the North, otherwise known as Governor Grevin Whitmer, who I think is one of the more sneaky and nasty American politicians.
I do not trust her as well.
Oh, did I call her something else other than, did I call her Grevin Whitmer?
Oh, I'm sorry.
Gretchen Whitmer.
Sorry.
The Wicked Witch of the North.
Did I call her Gavin Newsom?
They all kind of mixed together.
Grendel Whitmer, Gavin Whitmer, Gretchen Whitmer, J.B. Pritzker Whitmer.
They all kind of get put into one big bucket.
But no, I will say Pritzker is noticeably physically different than Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer.
All right, play cut 76 of Gretchen Whitmer, unable to tell you what a woman is.
She goes to such great lengths to try and not say the word woman.
It's an extraordinary piece of tape.
Play Cut 76.
So we looked at all the tools that I have as governor and determined that a couple unique things I can do.
Number one, I have the constitutional ability to bring a lawsuit to protect constitutional rights of people of Michigan.
So I brought a lawsuit on behalf of all the menstruating people in Michigan, 2.2 million, to and another tool I have is to go straight to our state Supreme Court.
I brought a lawsuit for her to protect all the menstruation people of Michigan.
Do you know what it reminds me of?
It reminds me of Neo at the end of the first Matrix dodging all the bullets.
I mean, the calisthenics you have to go through, the mental gymnastics to say, oh, what I'm not supposed to say, that on behalf of all the menstruating people of Michigan.
And the reason is that she can't say they're women because not only women can menstruate.
So now the new way that they define what a woman is, is they say menstruating people.
That's the new thing.
It's coming soon.
It's no longer a woman.
It's a menstruating person.
Then why don't you just call them a woman?
Oh, because anyone could be a woman.
Well, then what is a woman?
I can't tell you what that is.
And also, just what about older women who can no longer menstruate?
Are they no longer a women?
Woman?
Just asking for a friend.
Or younger women that have not yet gone through puberty.
Okay, so I want to play this.
I'm a big fan of The Matrix, and I think it's really well written.
The new Matrix is terrible for a lot of different reasons.
The Matrix is what you get out of it.
I think it's phenomenal.
Play cut 55, one of the most insightful clips from The Matrix.
The Matrix Trap 00:01:01
Listen closely.
Cut 55.
The Matrix is a system, Neil.
That system is our enemy.
When you're inside, you look around.
What do you see?
Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters, the very minds of the people we are trying to save.
But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.
Have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged.
And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.
Hopelessly dependent on the system that they will fight to protect it.
And they're not ready to wake up.
Are you?
Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
Email me your thoughts as always.
Freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thanks so much for listening.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk dot com.
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