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April 28, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
35:02
The War on Whiteness and The West with Douglas Murray
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Favorite Conversation With Douglas Murray 00:03:10
Hey everybody, today the Charlie Kirk Show.
One of my favorite conversations that I've had in recent memory is coming up right here with Douglas Murray, the author of The War on the West.
Douglas is one of the smartest intellectuals in the world, and I mean that.
You'll be blown away by his commentary, his honesty.
He has a charm to him that I think is just very appealing.
He's terrific.
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Here we go.
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There's so much news happening.
However, this hour, we're going to do it together, go through some of the news and also talk about his amazing new book of one of the most gifted and brilliant intellectuals in the world and definitely in the West, Douglas Murray.
He has a new book that is out called The War on the West.
And you're going to be blown away by Douglas this entire hour as he perfectly identifies the issues with what is happening in Western culture, what we can do to fix it.
And he does it with a wit and a charm that is quite honestly, he's the only one that I see that is able to do it like him.
He's incredible.
With us right now is Douglas Murray.
Douglas, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Hey, it's great to be with you, Charlie, and a real pleasure.
And by the way, for anyone listening but not seeing, I just cannot help admiring the t-shirt you're wearing.
1776.
Thank God.
Thank God.
I can't tell you.
In the last few days, I have been talking about 1619 so much, I think I'm going to go mad myself.
So thank you for having a reminder to everyone of the founding days of America and that it is not 1619.
I have been waiting my whole life for someone with a perfect British accent to compliment the fact that I would wear a 1776 shirt.
The War On White People 00:11:45
Look, it shows the historical disagreements can be reconciled.
That's right.
And that Western values are what keep us together.
Douglas, let's just start with your book, The War on the West.
Is there a war on the West?
And define what the West is for some of our listeners.
Yeah.
The West, as I said, the most important thing is it's the Anglosphere countries, the European countries as well.
But principies, the countries that have liberal democracy, the proper sense of the term, which have laws, rights.
It's also, of course, a culture.
It's a specific culture.
China has its own culture.
African countries have their culture, but the West has its culture.
It's not just a geographic entity, not just a political entity.
It's a cultural entity.
And what I described in the war on the West is a specific war that is being waged on the West by the West.
You know, there are other types of anti-Westernism.
There's Chinese anti-Westernism.
There's Arab anti-Westernism.
There's all sorts of anti-Westernism.
The one that is most devastating in our time is Western anti-Westernism, the desire, the attempt to wage war on the peoples and the ideas and the culture and the history of the West by people in the West.
And, you know, as you know, in the book, Charlie, I go through this methodically, but start with what I regard as being perhaps the biggest moral outrage of the moment, which is what I describe as the war on white people.
We in the West are multicultural countries.
We have all sorts of people from all places in the world, and it's certainly one of the things that makes us distinctive.
But we recognize racism in every single case except one.
And the one we don't recognize it in, won't recognize it in at the moment is the racism against white people, which is now absolutely endemic and particularly in America.
You see, you can't have a war on the West unless you wage war on the majority.
And the majority of people in America, as in Britain, are white.
And so, of course, if you're going to war on the West, you've got to war on white people.
You've got to say the most appalling racist things about white people.
You've got to pathologize white people.
Then you've got to strip them of their history.
You've got to rewrite their history.
You've got to say that their history is no good or has always been rotten and that they've got no good heroes, no decent people from their past, nothing to be proud of.
Then you've got a war on their religion.
You've got a war on the Judeo-Christian principles of the West and also the secular and enlightenment principles in the West.
And as I showed, both of those are happening.
And then you war on everything in the culture.
You look at everyone from the past, our philosophers, our musicians, our artists, our writers, and you've got to say, no, these people aren't people to be proud of or to learn from.
No, on the contrary, they're guilty of living in the Western past.
And therefore, they must be racist.
They must be connected to slavery.
They must be connected to colonialism and much more.
So this is now, and it has been growing for a generation, but in the last two years, we've lived it sped up in real time.
This is a war on everything in our culture.
And here's the problem: it is an American invention and an American export.
Traditionally, and I say this coming from the old continent myself, traditionally, America has been a net importer of bad ideas.
You know, it imported bad Marxist ideas from Europe.
It imported bad intellectual ideas from France.
Okay, that happened.
Today, America is a net exporter of bad ideas.
It is America that is exporting the idea of hating the West to the rest of the West and the rest of the world.
It's America that came up with CRT that is even in Britain now.
It is America that came up with BLM and all of this stuff that is now everywhere.
It's America that decided that everything in the world has to be looked at in this hostile light and everyone else is following course.
So I want to turn this around.
I think we can turn it around.
I think America should go back to being a net exporter of good ideas.
I think it's achievable, but it's going to need work from all of us.
There's so much there, and that's so smart and profound.
And I want to kind of kind of point on one thing here.
Let's talk about this war on white people.
That's a thought crime, Douglas.
You're not allowed to say it.
Oh, yeah.
You're obviously welcome to say it here.
We agree.
We believe that all forms of racism are evil and awful.
But the one type of racism you're not allowed to talk about, of course, is a war on people that look like you and I. Why is that?
Does it have something to do with how they view racism only to be a power struggle?
If you have more numbers, therefore you can't be racist.
And Douglas, you said something, and I've repeated it many times.
And I give you credit about half the time, just so you're just so we're clear.
When you were on this conversation with Dennis Prager and you just said, we have a supply and demand problem with racism in the West, I said, that is one of the smartest things I've ever heard anybody say.
Navigate us through that.
So, as I say, there's a supply and demand problem.
There's a demand for racists and a thankfully small supply in countries like America.
Very few people are actually white supremacists, as Dennis Prager said.
He said, I've never met a white supremacist ever come across one.
I mean, there are some out there, but I mean, it's not like American life is riddled with them.
On the contrary, most people in America are very decent, very open-minded.
All the stats show it.
And it's a profound smear on this country and its people to pretend that everyone is racist.
But here's the thing: as you say, and it's a thought crime in many places, I don't care.
I'm committing it anyway.
There is a war against white people.
The only permissible racism of our time is racism against white people.
And if anyone doubts that, if anyone doubts that, try any of the following phrases, these pathologizing phrases used about white people.
We've had white fragility.
Imagine if we had a New York Times best-selling book called Black Fragility.
We've had white tears.
Imagine if you had black tears.
Imagine if instead of laughing at white women's tears, we talked about black women's tears.
Imagine if instead of white rage, people said, Oh, I think there's a thing called black rage.
And imagine if the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley, testified in Congress and said, I want to look into black rage.
Okay.
And now, let me just give you one other quick example.
I'll be quick with it.
This is what was said last year at Yale University.
Yale is not a dump.
It used to one time be one of the great universities of America.
Here's what somebody said at Yale last year in a talk, a nasty, nasty piece of work called Aruna Kilinani.
She gave a talk about whiteness in which she said that white people have lost their minds, that they are predators with holes in their brains.
There are no good apples, no good apples.
And then she said that she fantasizes about unloading a revolver into the head of any white person that gets in my way, burying their bodies, wiping my bloody hands as I walk away guiltless with a bounce in my step, like I did the world in effing favor.
Tell me, Charlie, whether Yale University would permit somebody to say that they have fantasies of shooting black people in the head.
Of course they wouldn't.
Of course they wouldn't, and nor should they.
And you and I and everyone else would call them out.
The one group you can say that about are white people.
So, Douglas, you're talking about a war on white people, which I agree with.
And later in the conversation, I want to talk about how that could have an improper response of white identitarianism, which you and I do not support, but that is, they're almost trying to provoke that.
They're almost trying to engineer it, a re-tribalization of the West.
But instead, I want to focus these couple minutes together on what is driving this, which is a filler term that I do not like, which we use as woke.
But it's just kind of a catch-all term.
Why have the woke been so successful in making it controversial for me to wear a 1776 shirt or to say that Thomas Jefferson had some brilliant ideas or to say that the Western canon is the greatest breakthrough of literature that mankind has ever toiled in?
Why have the woke been so successful in being able to do that and obviously so much more?
First of all, because they have been willing to do whatever it takes to win.
They are perfectly willing to just lie.
I mean, I take apart piece by piece in the book the lies that they just spin, the lies that people like Kendi tell about Thomas Jefferson, the lies that Nicole Hanna-Jones tells about America, the claims they make that are totally untrue and without foundation, the lies that Robin DiAngelo and the other race hucksters, both black and white, are willing to engage in.
They are willing to do anything.
And I think that a lot of people are thrown by this because, you know, I mean, like, I'm not willing to just make stuff up and lie about people in order to win.
And I think most conservatives in general aren't either because it's just incredibly dangerous terrain.
Once you fall into that pit, you can't get out again.
So there's that.
There's also the ferocity with which they've done it.
Here's a very important point that we have to bear in mind.
And it comes from this observation.
Why are the, what you rightly say in the filler term is the woke mob.
Why are they coming for the people they have been coming for?
So if you want to say that everyone in our past is, you know, racist and so on and so forth, but why would they have come for Winston Churchill?
Winston Churchill is one of the primary targets of the woke mob.
The BLM protests in 2020 in London, they targeted Churchill's statue so often, defamed it, smeared it, graffited it so often it had to be boxed up and there was talk of it perhaps being brought down.
Why would you come for Churchill?
Let me repeat the question in a different way.
Why would they come for the founding fathers?
Why would they come for Lincoln?
Why would they have torn down the statue of Lincoln in Portland and then in other parts of the country, including Boston, the authorities removed the statues of Lincoln?
I'll tell you why.
They are coming for our holy places.
This is a revolutionary movement that is facing us.
And when you want to topple a civilization, when you want to destroy a civilization like these people want to destroy the West, you go to their temples, you pull down their statues, you urinate on their holy places, and you say, you've lost.
We've subjugated you.
You don't have any gods.
You don't have any heroes.
You don't have any rights to any of this.
We have new heroes for you.
We have new gods for you.
That's what they've been doing.
And let me just very quickly tell you how I can observe this.
Look at the people they haven't done it to.
I write at one point in the book about a historical figure from the 19th century who did all of the wrong things you could do, used the N-word repeatedly, usually hyphenated with the word Jew, was horrible in his views about black people, horrible in his views about Jews, horrible in his views about slavery and colonialism.
Who's the person in question?
New Gods And Old Heroes 00:02:51
Karl Marx.
Karl Marx.
Now, since I've revealed this, the racism in Marx's private and public correspondence, people have said, first of all, nobody knows this.
I mean, nobody knows this, not one in a million people knows what a racist Karl Marx was.
Why wasn't he subjected to this?
If you can take out Tom, everyone from the American past, if you can take out Churchill for one phrase, if you can take out Jefferson for one thing, David Hume for one footnote, if you can do that, why not Karl Marx?
Oh, I see.
It wasn't actually about leveling the same claim about everyone in the past.
It was about tearing down all of our heroes and all the people we admire in our past and leaving only one strand standing, Marxism.
Now, here's another thing.
The people, the people who I've revealed this to and who are annoyed in recent days now say, oh, Douglas, that's unfair.
Marx was simply a man of his time.
Oh, oh, like Thomas Jefferson, Winston Churchill, and Abraham Lincoln, you mean?
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The war on the West, that is going to be number one on my reading list as I kind of take a 10-day sabbatical to kind of recharge.
I'm doing it on my wedding anniversary coming up soon.
It's going to be the top of my list.
It's by Douglas Murray.
PAX Biblical Responsible Investing 00:16:25
So Douglas, we're talking about the West, and you've done a wonderful job identifying many of the problems.
I want to ask, in the recent weeks or months, have you seen a shift?
Are you seeing all of a sudden the wokeys being put on defense?
I, for one, and I could use the Twitter, I could see the Twitter example as front and center, as there's a change in how we're talking about these ideas.
It's no longer that we're even entertaining them.
It's almost like now we're dismissing them in the same category of bloodletting and flat earth theory right where they belong.
Are you seeing the same thing?
Or is this kind of just the mirage of false hope?
So I think that you're correct, Charlie.
My estimation is as follows, that the radical left, the anti-Westernists have overreached.
They've overreached.
You see, here's one suggestion.
I make this in the book.
If you were to tell any minority group in society that they are evil from birth, evil because of the color of their skin, have nothing good to be said about them, must spend their lives cringing and apologizing for things they didn't do that people who looked a bit like them in history may have done.
If you said that about any minority group, would you think that that minority group would go along with it?
I would suggest almost certainly not.
If you did it to a majority group, why would a majority go along with that?
White Westerners are the majority in America, in Britain, in the other countries of the West.
So these people who are waging war on us in our own societies, from our own societies, are doing it to the majority.
Yeah, and so, and isn't it, though, Douglas, that it's this kind of like waspy polite culture, though, that is now being used against us?
You have this line in the book that I thought was so amazing, and it says, the people of the West have been polite.
They've been encouraged to talk themselves down and talk everybody else up.
This will not necessarily last forever.
And you see this kind of embedded in white Anglo-Saxon Protestant circles where it's not, you didn't win the championship, your team won the championship, right?
It's that you're arguing this is not sustainable.
In fact, it's now turned, it's transformed into a form of suicide.
Yes.
Now, I want to, the purpose of the war in the West, and I really urge people to buy it, not just because it's a book by me, but because I'm trying to arm the American people.
I want to arm American parents to know what to say to their kids when they return from college stupider.
And I want to educate the kids to know what to say to their professors when they're indoctrinated.
I want us to have the facts to hand to fight back because the fight back has to be good, has to be decent, has to be reasonable, and it has to be successful.
And for that to happen, we need to be on the right terms.
Now, here's the thing: we need to be armed for this and armed with all of the right and correct answers, not least because the facts happen to be on our side.
But let me just explain what I think is going to have to happen.
We're going to have to say we're courteous, and what we're doing at the moment is courteous, but we might not always be courteous.
What do I mean by that?
I mean, like this: people say that the Western system of science is racist because it was come up with by white people.
They say that the Western system of mathematics is racist because it was come up by white people.
They say that the Western system of music notation is racist.
You think I'm joking?
This is at my old University of Oxford, they're saying they won't teach music notation because it was come up with by dead white men.
Now, here's the thing: none of these things are racist.
They are successful not because they came up through white men, but because they work.
Yes, the Western system of capitalism came up through white men, but that's not why it's successful.
It's successful because it works.
So, here's an example of what not being polite would look like.
I could point out, since we always in America, in particular, is always Native American wisdom, Native Indigenous peoples' wisdom, and so on.
When you have a global pandemic, when you have a global pandemic, who do you go to to try to find a vaccine?
Did anyone go to the Aboriginal peoples of Australia and say, now, look, chaps, I know you've got a different system of science.
Could you help us come up with a vaccine?
No.
Did anyone go to First Peoples Native Wisdom and say, Look, we'd really like some help to inoculate the planet against this coronavirus that's come out of China.
And could you help us deal with this?
Nobody did that.
What did we use?
We used the Western system of science.
And people of all backgrounds, all backgrounds, not only participated in that, but also benefited from it.
My point is, this is what it would look like if we stopped being polite.
And I want us to be polite.
I don't want to take the mickey out of people because of their traditions any more than I want them to take the mickey out of me for my traditions.
But here's the other part of this deal: if you do not respect me, I cannot respect you.
If you do not respect my history, I don't see why I should respect yours.
If you have zero respect for my culture, I will not respect yours.
That's where this goes.
That's where this goes.
And the fruits of the West are applicable to all people.
There's a reason why in the Tokyo Philharmonic, they're playing Bach, not Indonesian drum music or whatever, right?
That might be regionally appealing.
This is a great point, Charlie, because the point is, is that one of the greatest things of the Western tradition, which we are spitting all over in our era, is that it is available for all people to benefit from.
It isn't a racially exclusive event.
Yes, white people came up with most of it, but that doesn't mean it is the preserve of white people.
It means it's a gift to the world.
You know, if somebody else comes along with a better thing, then fine, we can look at that.
But these things are the things that work.
They made the modern world.
They made the world successful.
They came from the West.
So one of my suggestions is instead of spitting on that and defecating on it and pretending there's nothing good to come for it, how about we actually celebrate it?
How about we're actually grateful for it and show some damn gratitude for what we've been lucky enough to have inherited?
Because it's not, as I keep saying, it's not just luck.
As Branch Rickey once said, and as I quote in the book, luck is the residue of design.
Luck is the residue of design.
We are lucky in the West because the West was designed this way.
We are lucky in America because America was designed this way.
We didn't just happen to have what the founding fathers gave us.
We have it because they gave it to us.
We don't just happen to have freedoms and the freedom of speech and the freedom of thought and movement and much more because, oh, it's just a bit of luck.
It's because men from the past gave it to us.
They gifted it to us.
We would be such damn fools to think in this generation that our job was to turn that gift away.
And that's what we're in the process of doing.
And yeah, it is the mystery to me of self-destruction of an affluent and generous society.
And you've written extensively about that.
So now let's shift to the practical marching orders of preservation.
What does it take then to win this war on the West?
I believe we're starting to see very serious fault lines in the kind of non-stop blitzkrieg from these degenerative forces.
And I use that word intentionally.
And they are weaker.
They're more paranoid than ever before.
They're fracturing amongst themselves.
First of all, you and I know that's inevitable because they're not rooted in reality or truth or beauty.
Instead, it's anger and power.
And totalitarians will never trust one another.
But what does it take now?
Let's talk about winning, not just winning the argument, but winning back the civilization.
What is required of us?
I am only interested in winning in this.
And I want my readers to know how to win.
The way we win is to, first of all, to know our facts.
And secondly, not to fall into the traps that our opponents are laying.
Take one example that is there all the time at the moment, reparations.
We are continuously told at the moment that we need to pay reparations.
No, time up on that.
Time up.
At the moment, reparations would be a wealth transfer from one group of people who look like people who may have done something in the past to another group of people who may have had a wrong done to them.
Okay.
That doesn't make any sense.
Here's my suggestion.
America paid her reparations.
America fought a civil war, a bloody civil war to do away with slavery.
That was that.
Britain owes no reparations.
We dealt with that.
In the 19th century, our Navy patrolled the globe after abolishing slavery.
We make sure we abolished it elsewhere.
So people need to know these things.
Let me say, no, we're not falling into your traps.
We're not falling into the traps of pretending that we are guilty.
We're not.
We paid these things down.
So what we have at the moment are people who, as Nietzsche says, tear at wounds long closed and then cry about the hurt that has been caused to them.
This is what we have.
So I'm not interested in these people.
I'm not interested in the cries and moans of people who are reopening wounds that are closed.
I'm interested in how we move forward.
How we move forward is this.
We acknowledge what we have is good and we start to celebrate it.
Let me give you one quick fact that all of your listeners know, and very few people say.
America is the number one destination of migrants in the world, the number one place migrants want to come to.
Shortly after that, it's Britain, Canada, and a few other Western countries.
Now, when people come across the southern border in their millions, they do not meet people traveling the other way.
You do not see Texans fleeing to the safety of Mexico and South America.
What does this tell us?
It tells us that what we have is good.
And if what we have is good, it is because what we had was good.
What we had in the past that was given to us is good.
So that is what we need to preserve and protect and pass on.
Everybody knows it.
It's just that nobody admits to it.
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So, Douglas, what do you have to say then when people are constantly replacing one historical quote-unquote injustice with the other?
They say, oh, it's slavery, but then it's redlining and then it's segregation and then it's all of this.
It's the constant fixation.
Even if you say, wait, wait a second, to add to your point, you know, America distributed 19 million acres of land to freed slaves.
The size of South Carolina post-Civil War, most people don't even know this.
19 million acres of land were given to freed slaves, which is like giving South Carolina, as I said.
Most people say, oh, that wasn't enough.
That's a pretty amazing reparation check.
But what do you have to say to kind of all these other 20th century arguments that persist to try to invalidate the entire Western culture?
We just mustn't fall for it.
We've just got to not fall for it.
And to know that, we have to know facts like the one you just give and the ones that I give in the war on the west, the ones that we need as armor to defend ourselves and our tradition and this country.
You know, if America falls, everything else in the West falls too.
If America is persuaded that it is evil, everything else in the West will be persuaded that it is evil too.
You know, if Americans are persuaded that their history is only one of evil, then that is it.
Game over, show over, curtain closes.
The 21st century will be the century of the Chinese Communist Party.
And that, I can assure people, particularly people who think that racism is the single most important thing in the world, will not be a century that will be better for them than the American one.
So we need to arm ourselves with the facts and we need to know when we're dealing with bad faith actors.
We are dealing with a lot of bad faith actors when they talk about the West today.
They say that we are guilty of things uniquely when the things that we are accused of being guilty of are exactly the same things that everyone else in the world also did.
Every single civilization in history had slaves.
If we're going to pull down everything created by slaves, I guess we've got to pull down the pyramids because you know, I don't think that Egyptian workers were paid a fair day's wage for a fair day's work.
We'd have to pull down the Parthenon in Athens because I don't think that the Athenians managed to give good days' wages to the people who dragged the stones to the top of the hill.
Here's the thing: everybody's past is filled with things that they can be told to be shameful of and some things that they should be feeling some shame about.
But the overwhelming story of America is not one of shame, but of pride.
It isn't one of failure, but of success.
It isn't one which we should be cringing about and forever having to apologize about.
But say, look, the thing that marks us out isn't that we had slavery.
The things that marks us out is that we did away with it.
We fought to get rid of it.
We paid our dues to stop it.
We made ourselves poorer for a period in order to stop it.
Is that the case around the world?
Is that the case even around the world now?
No, no, it isn't.
How many slaves are there in the world today?
It's estimated about 40 million, 40 million.
I've met slaves myself on my travels around the world.
It's a terrible, terrible thing.
There are more slaves in the world today than there were in the 19th century.
So here's a suggestion.
Instead of falling for the people who hate us and the people who want to reframe our narrative and tell us that our country in America was started in slavery in 1619 and that it's forever there and so on.
Instead of falling for these people, how about we concentrate on the world as it is now and try to make it better?
These people want to take us to the past.
They want to talk about race.
They want to talk about racism.
They want to talk about the past endlessly, a past that they are trying to reframe in a hostile light.
I want us to focus on the future.
And the future, to get the future right, we have to get the past right.
And as I said to you before in the previous segment, everyone in the world knows that the West is best not because it comes from white people, but because it works.
It's our economies that work.
It's our societies that work.
It is, with all its flaws, our system of law that works.
People want to come here because it works.
We should show pride in that and we should be able to build on that.
But in order to do that, we need to know what it is we're defending and what it is that we are up against.
Buy The Book To Win 00:00:49
Couldn't have said it better.
Douglas, thank you for joining us for the full hour of The War on the West.
Everyone, please pick up a copy.
Get it right now.
The War on the West by Douglas Murray.
We'll have to have you back, Douglas.
And thank you for your courage and your amazing work.
Truly.
I'd love to be back.
And please, everybody, go online, go to a bookshop if you can find it and buy the war on the west, because if we can, apart from anything else, if we can make it a bestseller, it'll massively demoralize all of our opponents and enemies.
It'll make the woke even more angry.
And maybe they'll sure well.
They won't tweet about it because I don't know if they're on Twitter anymore.
Douglas, thank you so much.
I appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charlie.
Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your thoughts as always.
Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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