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April 9, 2022 - The Charlie Kirk Show
32:48
Poetry, Christ…and Frankenstein? Finding ‘The Truth and Beauty’ with Andrew Klavan
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Truth and Beauty in Poetry 00:02:32
Hey everybody, it's And the Charlie Kirk Show.
Andrew Clavin, who talks about the truth and beauty, how English poets can help you better understand Jesus.
A very interesting conversation, and I think you're going to really enjoy it.
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With us right now is someone I have a lot of respect for, and he has a podcast for the Daily Wire and also a new book that is really interesting, The Truth and Beauty, how the lives and works of England's greatest poets point the way to a deeper understanding of the words of Jesus.
Andrew Clavin is with us right now.
Andrew, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.
It's good to see you, Charlie.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
Thank you.
So I must admit, I don't know a lot about English poetry, but I do have a desire to have a deeper understanding of Jesus.
I agree with one of your statements here that you find sometimes what he said to be a little bit confusing, and you can't always get to the deepest level what Jesus was trying to say.
Walk us through why you wrote the book and we'll go from there.
Right.
You know, it's not a book written for people who read poetry, actually.
It's a book for people who want to know Jesus better.
And it started with my noticing that a lot of the things that Jesus says, especially in the Sermon on the Mount, but throughout the Gospels, are not as clear as we think they are.
We say them because we're taught to say them and we have faith that they're true and we trust that they're true, but we don't always know what they mean.
Connecting Jesus to Your Inner Self 00:15:24
And I myself was just looking at that and I was talking to my son about it.
And he said to me, you know, I think the problem may be that you're trying to understand a philosophy instead of trying to get to know a man.
And the minute he said that to me, I thought, wait, that's the smartest thing anyone ever said to me.
Because when you know somebody, when you actually know someone like, you know, your parents or your wife or someone who's really close to you, you don't really think, oh, you know, my wife has this philosophy of life.
What you think is, if my wife were here, she would like that or she would not like it or she would think about it this way or she'd feel it this way.
You know what's going on inside them.
And when I looked at Jesus again, I realized that was what he was trying to communicate to us.
He says, I want the joy that's in me to be in you.
And so I set out to read the Gospels again just to get to know him.
I didn't think about Paul.
I didn't think about the church.
I didn't think about theology, the Trinity, anything.
Because all I really want to know, to be honest with you, Charlie, is what God wants from me.
You know, the end of days is in his hands.
The judgment of sinners in his hands.
You know, the one thing that is in my hands is what I do with my life.
And so that's how I set out to read it, just to get to know him, like you would if you were reading a novel and you get to know the main character.
You're reading a biography and you get to know Ulysses S. Grant or whoever it is.
I just wanted to get to know him.
And as I did that, this weird thing happened.
Poets, these lines of poetry kept coming back into my head.
And I started to think about that.
And I thought, why should that be true?
And I realized it's because these guys, these particular poets, they're called the Romantic poets, and they wrote at the end of the 18th century.
So they wrote right around the French Revolution and afterwards.
They were dealing with a lot of the same problems that we have.
Almost the times are uncannily alike.
The French Revolution started with a bunch of people saying it's not fair.
We're not being treated fairly.
We're poor.
The rich are too rich and we're too poor.
But it ended with people saying, We are going to rewrite reality.
We are going to change the entire world.
We're going to tear down the statues of famous men.
That's what they did.
Yeah, we're going to kill all the priests.
We're going to kill the king and queen.
And we are just going to rewrite everything.
And all of Europe stood still and thought, here comes paradise.
This is going to be a great thing.
Well, when it failed, like the Soviet Union failed, the same attempt to do the same thing in the Soviet Union failed, the intellectuals didn't let it go, just like now.
You know, they thought, well, if we just tweak it here and do this, it's going to work eventually.
But some of them, one or two of them, risked being canceled.
And boy, oh boy, were they ever canceled?
And they decided, no, this was a mistake.
One of them was the great poet William Wordsworth.
There are poems written about him saying what a terrible person he is because he went from being a radical to being a conservative.
So these guys were facing a lot of the same things.
They were facing gender roles, were up for grabs.
People were saying, you know, should we get married?
Shouldn't women be allowed to sleep with everybody they want to?
The same kinds of things that we're talking about now.
Politics, the same kind of radical politics.
Everything should be swept away and we should rewrite the entire world.
And God, you know, science, this was the first time that science really started to have some successes in the world.
And people started to lose their faith, not because science disproved the Bible, but because it gave you the feeling that it had disproved the Bible.
You know, it sort of gave you the sense that things are different than they are in the Bible.
And so these poets had to reconstruct the world, just like we have to right now, just the same way.
I mean, the same way we have to start to ask basic questions.
Can a man become a woman?
Can we trust the Bible?
Is the Bible true?
And they were geniuses.
And so they wrote this beautiful poetry without even, they didn't mean to.
They didn't mean to go back to Jesus, but this beautiful poetry that when you read it in a certain way, explains what Jesus was saying.
And so, again, I didn't write this for people who like poetry or know anything about poetry.
I just talked about the journey these people took to rebuild the world from a state of absolute ruin, absolute destruction.
The same state that I think we're in right now, where even the most basic truths are up for grabs.
And for me, it changed everything.
I saw the words of Jesus in an entirely new way, not throwing out anything that he said, not changing or twisting anything that he said, but simply seeing getting into it from a different direction that gave me a fresh perspective and deeply increased my joy.
So I wanted to spread that around a little bit.
Give us some examples, maybe one or two that our audience might be able to resonate with.
Well, the classic thing was, you know, love your enemies.
I saw that and I thought, I don't even like my enemies.
You know, I don't even like some of my friends.
I'm like, I love my enemies.
And why should I love my enemies when some of them are really awful people?
Well, when I looked again, I realized that Jesus said, love your enemies because it will make you a son of your father, because that's the way he sees your enemies.
So I thought, ah, Jesus is trying to get us to see the world the way God sees the world.
He is trying to make us part of his creation.
So he's trying to make us a branch of his vine.
That's the way he puts it.
And when he says, I want the joy that's in me to be in you, he wants us to see the world as he sees it.
So we will be as joyful as he is.
And joy isn't happiness.
You know, it's not like, oh, it's, you know, you hear Christians say, oh, I'm blessed and truly favored.
My wife left me and I lost my job, but I'm so happy, you know, because I'm a Christian.
I don't believe in any of that.
I believe that when sad things happen, you're sad.
When happy things happen, you're happy.
But you always want to be deeply involved in life.
And that's what I think what joy means.
The poets called it gusto.
So when you start to love your enemies, it's not to be a nice guy.
It's not to transform your enemies into nice people.
It's not to change the world.
The world is going to stay exactly the same, but you are going to see it in a new way.
And that's what so many of these poets were writing about.
They were writing about the fact, you know, let me give you a good example from just from the modern day, all right?
Right now, when you lose touch with God, you lose touch with yourself.
When you're not a branch of the vine, you're just a branch lying on the ground.
You're not going to bear fruit.
You're just empty.
So you don't know what your inner world is all about.
Does it mean anything when I think something's good?
What if I think something's good and you think something different is good?
What if I think it's nice to live in a country where women are free, but you live in a country where women have to wear a dark hood and they can't go out without an escort?
Which one of us is right?
Are we both right?
So what we have is a world where people's inner lives don't mean anything.
They think they're not real.
And you have a world in which the inner life seems to be completely sovereign over everything.
So if in the middle of this conversation, I turn to you and say, oh, and by the way, Charlie, I'm a woman.
You suddenly have to call me a woman or else you're a terrible person because you're not respecting my inner life.
These poets reconstructed the inner life and how it works.
And what they came to is they came to say, we are in collaboration with creation.
We are not separate from reality, but we are in ourselves a new part of reality.
We are the part of creation that creates.
And that's a very beautiful thought.
And when you start to think about it, you realize that just walking down the street, just Charlie Kirk walking down the street has never happened before.
That experience that you're having, just looking around at the trees, the people, the cars, that's never happened before and it will never happen again.
It's a unique thing that God has made and that you are making as part of God's creation.
When you start to deal with life that way, and it's not easy, you have to do it a little bit at a time, you have to work at it, everything becomes incredibly beautiful.
Everything becomes incredibly joyful.
And as I say, that doesn't mean you're happy all the time.
It simply means you have gusto, you have meaning in your life because it is the purpose of your life to become yourself.
I wrote down here in collaboration with creation.
I love that.
Andrew, I have to ask you, though.
So you said that these poets were romanticists.
Is that correct?
They were called the romantic poets.
It didn't mean that they were, you know, good at lovemaking or anything like that.
It meant a certain approach to life.
Yeah.
And so I'm asking for a reason is that sometimes romanticism can be categorized or characterized, I should say, as a rejection of order or harmony or calm.
How do English Romanticists, how would that fit into Jesus or the Bible?
I would love some clarity on that.
Right.
Well, first of all, it's just not true.
I mean, this is what so many people say this.
So many people who ought to know better say it, real readers and people who pay attention to poetry.
They'll say, well, there was an age of reason, but then the Romantics came along and they didn't like reason.
So they just wanted to deal with emotion and disorder.
That's simply not the case.
If it was an age of reason, we have to remember that the age of reason ended with a reign of terror, that the age of reason led to the revolution, the French Revolution, which ended with people being guillotined, with priests being killed, with kings being killed, and with a 12-year world war, the Napoleonic Wars.
So the Age of Reason wasn't all it cracked up to be.
And it gave to a new generation an assignment.
How are we going to rebuild the consciousness of man for a new age, a scientific age, a free age, an age when people start to feel that maybe there shouldn't be kings and maybe people should be equal?
And each one of them dealt with it differently.
Is no romantic philosophy.
There's no one person who represents the romantics because each, it's really the task they were trying to create that brings them all together.
So, for instance, Wordsworth became a deeply conservative person.
The poet Shelley was a great radical.
He was an atheist and he believed in free love and all these things.
Whereas Wordsworth had this wonderful marriage and ultimately became a Christian.
He didn't start out as a Christian, but he became one over time.
So each one of them approached it differently.
What brought them together was their understanding that the inner life of human beings matters.
You cannot have reason as some kind of like machine.
You know, you can't, reason is not some kind of perfect thing that's going to explain the world because we're not entirely reasonable creatures.
We're creatures who love.
We're creatures who appreciate beauty.
We're creatures who are broken and sinful and do what we don't want to do, what we think we shouldn't do.
We do, and what we think we should do, we don't do.
All of those things, we're living in a complete creature, and each part of us is important.
It's not just our reason that is important.
We all know that is important, but it's not the only thing that's important.
And that is really what it's what the book is about, and it's what the title of the book is about.
You know, you asked me to discuss some of the poetry specifically.
And the title of the book comes from a very great, very famous poem called Odona Grecian Urn by John Keats, who was, he died extraordinarily young.
I think he was 25 when he died.
But he was probably the most talented English poet since Shakespeare.
He was probably the one with the most pure poetic talent.
And he wrote this beautiful poem about art and how art can take us into eternity, that art is an eternal thing.
It lasts in a way that human beings don't last.
And the last line of this poem is: well, you know, I'll read it.
I'll read you just a brief bit of it.
The one line is: Beauty is truth, truth, beauty.
That is all you know on earth and all you need to know.
And when you read that, you think, how is beauty truth?
But what he's really telling you is that you are the full human being is a machine for understanding truth.
Your inner life is not meaningless and it's not sovereign.
It is there to understand the truth in yourself through yourself in an original and new way.
And that's what Christ basically helps us do.
He is the model for the human connected to God.
He is the model for the human as God.
And when we become part of his vine, when we become a branch of his vine, we become our version of that.
Well, that's that's beautiful.
Andrew, tell us about Frankenstein.
What does he have to do with all this?
Yeah.
Well, one of the writers I deal with is not a poet, is Mary Shelley, the author of Frankenstein.
And she was just a teenager when she wrote it.
But they were living in a time when marriage and sex roles were under question.
Mary's mother, Mary Wollstonecraft, was one of the first feminists.
She wrote a very famous book called The Vindication of the Rights of Women.
Her father was a famous philosopher who despised marriage.
She ran away with the poet Percy Shelley, who also despised marriage, thought it was a prison.
He abandoned his wife to run off with her.
And she was spending the summer with Shelley, who was now her lover, and with Byron, who was everybody's lover.
The guy slept with everybody.
I mean, he slept with men, he slept with women, he didn't care.
And she was basically dealing with the philosophy of free love.
And she was a teenage girl.
She was 18, 19 years old.
And they were sitting around one day, and Byron sort of said, let's all write a ghost story.
And they all set out to write a ghost story.
None of them finished it except for Mary.
And what was her story about?
It was about a man who builds a monster, builds a creature out of human body parts and brings it to life.
And even Mary said, this is a story about a man who usurps the power of God to create life.
Now I've read Frankenstein many times and I don't think that's what it's about because Frankenstein doesn't usurp the power of God because we all can create life.
All men and women can come together to create life.
What he usurps is the power of women.
He creates a person without a mother.
And that is in opposition to God who, when he wanted to become a person, remember he's God.
He can become a person any way he wants.
But when he wants to become a person, the first thing he does is choose a mother.
So what happens to this creature?
You know, this creature becomes a murderer.
He becomes an outcast.
At one point, the creature, Frankenstein, hides out with some peasants, basically, out in the countryside, and he learns about life and he learns about what a mother is.
He learns about what a father is, what children are, and how much the mother and father love the children, how much they guide them in life.
And he comes back to his creator, to Dr. Frankenstein, and he says, I want to be fully human.
Build me a woman.
Build me an Eve.
You built me.
Now build me an Eve.
And this is the story of what happens to people when they lose the humanizing influence of motherhood.
And this was something all these poets wrote about because almost all of them lost their mothers young.
Wordsworth writes this beautiful passage in his autobiographical poem, The Prelude, where he talks about how a mother, by looking in her baby's eyes, creates its humanity, connects it to the world through her love.
This, it turns out, to be literally true.
It turns out that we have these things called mirror neurons, and they are set on fire by our interactions with our mother when we're a baby.
And so mothers don't just turn matter into life.
They also turn life into individuality, into individual humanity.
Now, this is something that Mary Shelley, Mary Shelley, as this teenage girl, created the science fiction novel.
This is the first real modern science fiction novel.
And if you look at science fiction over time, it tells a story about science's antagonistic relationship to motherhood.
If you look at dystopian novels like Brave New World or The Giver, almost always the first thing that happens is the mother has to go.
In Brave New World, they have children in machines.
Mary Shelley's Role in Society 00:11:50
In The Giver, they relegate motherhood to the lowest woman in the society.
If you look at a great science fiction movie like Terminator, The Terminator, remember, the machines are running the world.
The human beings are rebelling against the machines.
So what do they do?
They send a machine back in time, Arnold Schwarzenegger, back in time to kill the rebel leader's mother.
They understand that that's where his power comes from.
That's where his training, his abilities come from.
And the point that I think Mary Shelley was making, she may have been making it unconsciously, was that women have a special role to play in the creation of humanity, not just the obvious physical creation of humanity, but in the creation of true humanity, of deep humanity.
We have lost that sense right now.
And one of the reasons I think we've lost it is because machinery has taken from women many of the tasks they used to perform.
When you go back and you look at Proverbs 31, Christian's always saying, I want a Proverbs 31 woman.
Proverbs 31 woman is not the housewife from Leva to Beaver who vacuums with her, wearing heels and pearls.
Proverbs 31 woman is a businesswoman.
She sells property.
She creates food.
She grows an orchard.
She sells the food.
She uses the money to buy more land.
And she feeds and raises her children and she takes care of her husband and she gives her husband a good reputation.
That's a lot to do.
At this period that the Romantics were writing in, the Industrial Revolution had destroyed and was in the process of destroying much of that economic power that women had.
Suddenly clothes, which women created, women were called the distaff because they used this distaff to make clothes with.
Suddenly that was done in a factory.
Suddenly food could be created in a factory.
Suddenly children were leaving the farm to go and work in the city in a factory and not coming back.
So the value of children, which was something women supplied, went down because they no longer helped in your old age and they no longer helped took over your farm.
All of these things serves to strip women of their place in society.
So that's why feminism got started right there.
That's why the feminists start to say, you know, we need more rights.
We need to be more involved in the world.
We need to get out of the house.
And ultimately say, get out of the house.
And what Mary Shelley came over time, she was one of the few of these writers who actually lived into the Victorian age and became a Victorian and started to write books about the urgency of women's domestic role, of the homemaking role, of the motherly role.
She started to become more religious in her writing because she understood that this free love and this attack on the feminine nature, the nature of femininity, was destructive, not just to women, but to the humanity that women produce.
And when you read Frankenstein that way, you get a very strong answer, a very strong response to these guys who are telling us now that a guy can become a woman, that there's absolutely no, absolutely no difference between a man and a woman.
And if you want to just switch over, all you got to do is snap your fingers.
And all of a sudden, you're a woman.
You can compete in their sports.
You can have your period.
You can have, you know, all of this nonsense that they're talking is deeply destructive, but it's not new.
It is not new.
It has been going on at least since the Romantic period.
And they were dealing with it in that moment.
Some of the people who experienced the free love movement were some of the women were absolutely destroyed by it.
Shelley's wife, the woman he left, drowned herself and the child she was carrying in her belly by another man.
She drowned herself in the serpentine or a body of water in the park.
The woman who had an affair with Byron had a child.
That child was taken away from her and was separated from her and died young.
At the end, a lot of these women looked back on this era of free love and said these men became monsters, controlled by lust, basically saying that women were no different than men, that they needed nothing from men.
They became monsters.
And so we've been through a lot of this before.
You know, it's not like this is a new thing that suddenly these guys discovered, oh, we can mess around with gender roles.
This is something that's happened before and these people had to deal with it.
And I think Mary Shelley dealt with it as a nightmare.
And she dealt with it in one of the most powerful, I mean, Frankenstein's one of the great novels, and it's certainly one of the greatest horror novels ever written.
But it's a beautiful, thoughtful book.
It's not like the movie at all.
It's a very beautiful, thoughtful book.
And this, I think, is its real subject.
So what is the takeaway from that era of how they defeated that sort of gender confusion or the role reversal?
You've kind of touched on this a little bit, but how does it apply directly to our times today as we live through almost identical the same issues?
It's really a hopeful thing because one of the things that this gave way to, a time of radicalism, a time of gender role confusion, a time of disbelief, became the Victorian era.
And whatever you think of the Victorian era, some people think it's the great.
I happen to think it's one of the pinnacles of mankind, but some people think it's terrible.
But whatever you think of it, it was a deeply conservative, deeply family-oriented, deeply patriotic, and deeply God-fearing time in England, in the England these poets lived in and created in and came from.
And so it actually is quite a hopeful thing that while the Romantics are frequently disdained and disrespected and dismissed, really the world changed in ways that certain of the Romantics, like Wordsworth, the more conservative ones, like Wordsworth and Coleridge, that they foresaw and they wanted.
And they actually fought for.
I mean, Wordsworth became a highly political guy.
He used to say that he spent a dozen hours thinking about politics for every one hour he thought about poetry.
And it was very, very conservative politics.
And so it actually is a hopeful thing that you can rebuild things.
That yes, the radicals do destroy.
Time destroys.
New innovations in science and consciousness destroy, but you can rebuild those truths that are the same yesterday, today, and forever.
It takes mental effort and it takes soul effort, and it takes each person kind of contributing to that culture, but it can be done.
And is that also a call for new art as well?
I mean, this was all done in a form of art.
And so I would imagine that that's a massive vacuum right now in our society, which is who's actually creating the art to, you know, communicate this to the population.
Well, now, Charlie, you hit on one of my favorite topics, one of my rocking horses, because I left this country for seven years.
I went to England for seven years in the 90s.
And when I came back, I just saw absolute ruin.
I saw a country that could be bombed by Islamist fanatics on 9-11.
And the elites would say, well, why do they hate us?
Maybe we should change.
No, they're supposed to hate us.
They're the bad guys.
We're the good guys.
They're supposed to hate us.
And that's when I started talking about the culture.
I left for England a liberal.
I came back and discovered to my surprise that I had become an American conservative.
And that's when I started talking to conservatives that you've let the culture go.
And that's how I met Andrew Breitbart, who said, you know, you're the only other person talking about this.
You know, in the 20 years that I've been talking about this and beating this drum, at first they looked at me like I was nuts.
I used to complain to Breitbart and say, you know, nobody's listening.
And he would laugh, say, you know, welcome to my world.
Now everybody's listening.
Now we get it.
We are in a time when our arts are degraded.
And I don't mean that they have to become every movie has to become a Christian feel-good film.
That's that's ridiculous.
You know, I think we, what we need is reality.
We need truth.
It's the truth that sets us free.
The founders of this country didn't watch Dara's Day movies.
The founders of this country read Shakespeare.
They read the Greek tragedies.
They read stories of real life and real human beings and how twisted and broken we are.
We got to tell those stories honestly.
We've got to tell them from a point of view that understands there is a purpose to being a human being, there's a purpose to creation, and yet is honest about life.
It's happening.
It's happening.
At the Daily Wire, we're starting to make films.
They're starting a publishing house.
I've been creating art all this time.
I've been working in the arts this whole time.
It is absolutely changing.
The difference between the reaction I get from conservatives today and the reaction I got 20 years ago is absolutely black and white.
It's absolutely amazing.
And you can thank Disney and all these other cultural institutions for waking people up for that in more.
Absolutely.
Yes.
Thanks a lot, you guys.
I just want to read one of the testimonials for this.
Amazing.
Stephen Meyer, who I have a ton of respect for, says, quote, not since reading C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce in College, has a single book induced such deep and constructive theological reflection in me as I suspect it will for many other readers.
That's a big deal.
That's a big endorsement there from Dr. Stephen Meyer, who I have a lot of respect for from the Discovery Institute.
So congratulations.
And then Jordan Peterson says, quote, poetry and literature point to the sacred.
Andrew Clavin reminds us how.
Andrew, we have a couple minutes remaining.
I'll just kind of leave the floor to you right now.
What about the book or about what's happening in the world?
Do you want to make comments on that we didn't have a chance yet to touch on?
Well, I guess the only thing that I want to talk about is when I talk to people your age and younger, I find that they have a really difficult time, a lot of times, embracing faith.
We live in an atmosphere, a default atmosphere of non-belief.
And that's kind of what I wanted to address.
I know a lot of people, a lot of people who know they need God and they know the world needs God and they know society needs God, but they can't believe.
I see it again and again.
I noticed it actually over a decade ago.
A lot of intelligent writers, a lot of intelligent young people saying, you know, yeah, we cannot sustain this society without God, but I don't believe.
I can't believe.
And they wrestle with it.
And I guess I was hoping to find a way to speak to believers about a fresh take so you'd see something new that you hadn't seen before.
And to talk to people who have that problem, have that problem that, yes, they see it, they want it, they desire it, but they can't have it.
Because, you know, when we talk about the fact that our rights come from God, you lose God, you lose your rights.
When we talk about the fact that we are connected, that our spirit is connected to the spirit, that we're a branch of his vine, you fall off that vine, that branch dies.
You know, you will not have a creative, beautiful life without that.
We all know it.
I think a lot of people sense it, and a lot of young people know it, but they are surrounded by this fog of unbelief.
And so I hope this cut through the fog.
You know, the fog existed then as it exists now.
These guys, these poets, were geniuses, and the things they said are illuminating.
C.S. Lewis said that if you read Wordsworth and you follow him, you will eventually come to believe.
You will eventually be converted.
Wordsworth himself did that.
He started as an atheist and followed his own thinking and actually made it back.
And so I guess I just wanted to show you sometimes when you take a machine apart and you put it back together again, you sometimes understand it better.
And that's what these guys had to do.
And so I guess I just feel the need for it in this moment.
I hope I've met that need.
I certainly strove to meet that need, but I see it everywhere.
And I know, I know that everything depends on it.
I know you know that too, Charlie.
I mean, it all depends on God.
It's all about that.
It really truly is.
Well, Andrew, I want to thank you for joining our program and for writing this book.
Everyone, check it out: The Truth and the Beauty, The Truth and Beauty.
Final thing: it's the truth, not just truth and beauty.
Tell us why.
Well, you know, it's funny.
Ben Shapiro made fun of the title when I said, Ben, it is about Jesus and poetry.
It is about the truth and beauty.
So that's why it's called not just truth and beauty, but the truth.
And the truth will set you free.
So exactly.
Andrew, thank you so much for joining us.
I really enjoyed this.
Thank you.
Thanks a lot, Charlie.
It's great to see you.
Appreciate it.
Thanks.
Final Thoughts on the Book 00:03:01
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I want to end on a note of optimism here about something that involves us and involves your country.
So you could tell a lot about where a country is and where the country is headed based on what people are consuming.
And so I check something fairly regularly, which is the top podcasts in the country.
And, you know, you feel as if that the country is taking a left-wing liberal turn, especially with young people.
And but then you look at the top podcast charts of who's actually doing well, who's succeeding, what podcasts are popular in Apple podcasts.
Are conservative ones getting blown out of the water?
Who's doing well?
So the number one podcast, the New York Times, Daily, and they do, they put a ton of money in it.
Then National Public Radio, then Ben Shapiro.
So it's a conservative podcast.
Then the Daily Wire, another conservative podcast, then Dan Bongino, then Matt Walsh, then our program.
If you look at the top 10 podcasts, one, two, three, four, five out of ten are conservative.
Out of the top 15, you have nine out of 15 are conservative podcasts.
Now, what's the significance of this?
And we're honored to be in the top 10 amongst so many phenomenal other patriots.
Is that people are consuming conservative information at record rates right now?
And this is a great sign.
If you look at it, you're like, wow, even with all the nonsense, CNN, all that sort of stuff, you have something that's really exciting that's happening here that I think isn't getting covered at all.
And if young people are gravitating towards center-right pro-American podcasts at this clip, there's a lot more hope out there than I think that will be ever communicated in the mainstream media.
So give us a subscription, Charlie Kirk Show Podcast, and hit subscribe.
We'll deeply appreciate that.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email me directly, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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