As chaos continues to unfold on the Eastern European Front, Gordon Chang, the foremost expert on the Chinese Regime, joins Charlie to unpack the makings of a dangerous, new, and entirely avoidable alliance being formed between the two authoritarian leaders of Russia and China. Charlie also reacts to reports out of Ukraine that citizens are taking up arms themselves in defense of their homeland before he’s joined by Dr. Keith Rose—a man with an extensive background in foreign intelligence and war to make sense of the implications of this conflict in a way no one else without such deep sources and knowledge could. Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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China Backs Russia's Invasion00:08:10
Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk show, what would happen if every Ukrainian had a firearm?
What if they had a Second Amendment?
Would things happening in Ukraine look any different?
And we're joined by Keith Rose to talk about that and so much more.
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What does China have to do with Russia?
Well, one of the theories that we floated on this show is that Russia feels empowered and emboldened to do aggressive action, such as invading Ukraine, when they have China in their back pocket.
Is the Russia-China alliance something as strong as now we're seeing a new super alliance of dictators that want to go against the West?
Someone who knows China better than anybody else, knows the CCP and the geopolitics surrounding it, is my friend Gordon Chang, who's just terrific.
Gordon, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Thank you so much, Charlie.
So, Gordon, walk us through what is the Russia-China relationship?
Why has China not denounced the invasion of Ukraine?
And connect the dots for us.
Well, first of all, Charlie, not only has Beijing refused to denounce the invasion of Ukraine, it actually refuses to call it an invasion, which shows you how close China and Russia are.
When Vladimir Putin went to Beijing for the opening ceremony of the Olympics, February 4, they had that meeting, Putin and Xi Jinping.
What happened is they issued that very long communique that announced the no-limits partnership.
But even more important, they announced $117.5 billion in new, new oil and gas deals.
And just a few days ago, Charlie, Russia announced the sale of 100 million metric tons of coal to China.
This means Beijing is actually financing Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
And we see China supporting Russia in other ways.
This is, as you say, a super partnership of really bad actors.
This is perhaps the end of the Cold War, post-Cold War period.
This really looks like the beginning of a general period of conflict.
So we buy all this cheap plastic from China after we deindustrialize our country.
And then China takes those U.S. dollars that we trade to them to then go buy energy from Russia that they need because China really has no access to energy even close to what we have or Russia has.
And then Russia takes that money to go invade Ukraine to finance the terror of a sovereign country.
So let me ask you, Gordon, with this new super alliance that has been formed, you know, one of the things that President Trump never got credit for was keeping China and Russia kind of in their own corner.
He made sure they never got too close together.
He made sure that the partnership was never really sealed.
He had the famous Xi Jinping summit at Mar-a-Lago.
He met with Vladimir Putin in Helsinki.
He did everything he possibly could to try to disrupt the cementing of that relationship.
Is this now going to be the new 21st century Axis?
Is Russia-China going to merge into kind of you do your ethnostate, we'll do our ethnostate, and the West is the enemy?
Is that the way this is playing out?
Oh, it certainly is.
China and Russia see their interests coincide, and they identify the same adversary, which is us.
And that is driving Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin together.
During the Trump years, as you point out, President Trump accomplished what the current National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, has been trying to do, which is, as they say in the White House, quote unquote, park Russia.
In other words, to get Russia to stay to one side.
Trump actually accomplished that.
And what we are seeing is that the Biden administration has undone all the good work of the Trump administration when it comes to China and Russia.
And it's no coincidence that Vladimir Putin has decided to go after Ukraine in the Biden administration, not in the Trump years.
That's exactly right.
And so I want to ask you, Gordon, about this story, which only further kind of proves the point.
So Joe Biden had this brilliant idea to go share with China the intelligence we had about Russia's military buildup, hoping that China would somehow tell Russia to back off.
Not that we were going to do it, but somehow relying on China.
The New York Times reports that then Chinese officials rebuffed the United States and then shared the information with Moscow.
It's unprecedented.
Yeah, and Biden should have known that was exactly going to happen because the two of them are working hand in glove.
We have seen, for instance, the Chinese and the Russian militaries exercise with each other since 2005.
But last year, they took that cooperation to a new level.
When you had Russian soldiers actually using Chinese weapons, that shows a desire to build interoperability.
And that means it's an integrated military at some point.
You know, the Biden team has these sort of unrealistic, ludicrous even notions of China.
And that's for a number of reasons.
But, you know, Biden should have known that the Chinese were going to do that.
To me, it's incomprehensible that they would actually share anything with China that was not supposed to go to Moscow.
So people are now contemplating what should our actions be to respond to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Our country's war worry, myself included.
I don't think U.S. troops need to get in the way of this.
But now that this new super alliance is formed, and that's one of the big takeaways I hope our listeners really internalize from this, what is the proper course of action here, Gordon?
Because what you're telling me is China is basically they're backing up Russia.
Putin feels empowered and emboldened because he has a new ally, not new, but strengthened ally.
And will China take Taiwan next?
What's your opinion on that?
Yeah, I can tell you, if we were back two weeks ago, a lot of reasons why China would not invade Taiwan.
But right now, all the assumptions of that world with two weeks ago are now gone because we don't know what's going on.
Vladimir Putin has changed the world probably irrevocably, and he's changed it in such a way that we can't assume anything anymore.
So yeah, Xi Jinping has looked at the meek response of President Biden to Ukraine, and he's probably thinking, well, I could do something.
It could be Taiwan, could be Japan, could be the Philippines, could be India, could be Nepal, could be Bhutan, anywhere along China's southern and eastern peripheries.
The New Geopolitical Axis00:02:22
We probably will see some sort of provocative, belligerent action again by China.
And this is thanks to the Biden administration's not being able. to deter Russia.
We're such a stronger country than Russia.
We're stronger than China and Russia together, but we can't deter them when you have incompetent leadership in the Oval Office.
Incompetent, corrupt, and also captured by the environmentalists that don't want us to be energy supreme or superior.
You wrote the book, The Coming Collapse of China.
With these latest developments, where does the collapse of China stand now?
Actually, China right now has a very dangerous situation.
It's got a debt crisis it can't solve.
The stagnant economy, worsening food shortages, and COVID outbreaks it can't control.
It's really in trouble, and that makes it even more dangerous, Charlie, because Chinese leaders see a closing window of opportunity.
We've got to be really concerned.
They can do things that'll take us by surprise.
The China expert himself, Gordon Chang, he knows more about the CCP and the geopolitics surrounding it than anybody else.
Thank you so much, Gordon, for joining us today.
Thank you.
Thank you, Charlie.
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America as Peacemaker00:03:26
So you rarely get to see the reshuffling of the world order in real time, but it's here.
And Russia has made a decision to go into the arms of China.
We never should have allowed that to happen.
We should have kept Russia neutral and built a coalition against China.
China has everything that Russia needed, which is dollar bills that we gave them because we buy a bunch of plastic garbage from China.
It's the new axis that has been created.
And we went from peace in the Middle East under Trump and having Israel and UAE agree on many different things to now new axis where people do whatever they want.
And this is now getting quickly out of control.
Iran is going to just basically do whatever they want.
Iran is going to enrich uranium up to 20%, even after a nuclear deal.
Iran will continue to enrich uranium from 20% purity, even after sanctions on it are lifted.
A 2015 nuclear deal with world powers is revived.
And the Iranian news agency quoted the country's nuclear chief on Friday.
Quote, uranium enrichment continues with a maximum ceiling of 60%, which led Westerners to Russia negotiations.
And it will continue with the lifting of sanctions by both 20% and 5%.
So they're going to do whatever they want.
When America is weak and we do not have a president, bad actors will do whatever they want.
Now, what should Biden do right now?
I'll tell you what a leader would do.
A leader doesn't sleep in while war is happening.
Biden had the opportunity to be a peacemaker here, and he very well could have flown to Minsk and said, I demand a meeting right now with Putin and with Zelensky, or else there will be consequences.
Trump would do that.
You think Trump would sit idly by while Putin is invading?
Of course not.
Any active president wouldn't do that.
We don't have an active president.
We have a passive president.
Let's play Cut 87.
Jam-Pack, two hours coming up, and here is a Fox News alert live look at Ukraine's capital as U.S. officials are warning that city could fall in hours to days as Putin's forces breach the city limits.
Cut 87.
The Ukrainian people need help at this hour.
They don't have a month to wait to see if sanctions will affect the behavior of Russian President Putin.
There are people dying in the streets of this country today.
And if there aren't heavier sanctions imposed on the Russians, and if this country doesn't receive more defensive weapons, it will completely fall into the hands of Russian President Putin, and it will be occupied by Russian forces.
And Biden has said, let's just let these sanctions put them in and see how they work out.
He could fly into the region right now, fly into Minsk, fly into wherever, fly into Budapest, flying to Warsaw, and demand a meeting, and all of a sudden change the entire geopolitics of all this.
The pursuit of peace is always an admirable venture, always.
And America has an opportunity to be a peacemaker of what's happening right now in Ukraine and Russia.
And it doesn't seem like we're even entertaining that.
No, instead, Hillary Clinton says we should just counter-attack Russia.
That's what we should do.
They attack Ukraine.
We should just go to war.
Hillary Clinton calls for open cyber attacks against Russia.
Play Cut 69.
There were reports overnight that anonymous, a group of hackers took down Russian TV.
Putin Sees Paper Tiger00:13:00
I think that people who love freedom could be engaged in cyber support for those in the streets in Russia.
I think we could be also attacking a lot of the government institutions and, again, the oligarchs.
And when Biden was asked, hey, do you think there might be a nuclear strike?
This was his response.
Cut 64.
This statement that he gave last night that the threat that he gave, the West will face consequences greater than any you have faced in history.
Is he threatening a nuclear strike?
I have no idea what he's threatening.
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With us right now is Dr. Keith Rose.
He has, let's say, extensive experience in the intelligence world.
He has sources all across the planet and is someone that we are honored to call a friend.
Keith, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Charlie, it's good to be here.
Keith, what's going on in Ukraine that we might be missing that you are hearing from your sources through the Intel community?
Well, Charlie, what's going on in Ukraine right now is a very well-executed plan by Putin to take that country.
And while he's doing that, at the same time, he has had people in the country before Russia ever invaded it.
I believe there are probably Speznets there, GRU, FSB, their intelligence services.
And they've been recruiting a lot of people, including teenagers in the major cities that they have been paying to protest and riot to kind of soften the city before they get there.
So tell us about Chernobyl and tell us about some of the other activity that is happening in Ukraine and something that we might be missing as far as the incursion here.
Well, there's been some very interesting activity in Chernobyl.
I've talked to a few people I know that have been on the ground there.
And they're seeing a lot of movement in and out of Chernobyl, which is normally like a tomb or a sarcophagus.
No one goes in, no one goes out.
There's no reason to.
Yet, since Russia invaded, there have been Russian helicopters and trucks.
We don't know what they're doing, but we know they're there and we know they're going in and out of that area.
And that area is full of nuclear weapon precursors.
You have plutonium.
You have a lot of nuclear material that you don't want anyone running around with.
So I think that at least someone needs to ask the question, not only here in this country, but on the international stage and ask Russia what they're doing.
Yeah, so what are you hearing from your sources and seeing on the ground?
What is the Russian endgame here?
Because it seems to be irrational in many different ways.
What's really going on here?
Well, Charlie, to understand what's going on now, you really need to look back at Putin and why and what he's doing.
Putin was not happy.
I mean, Putin was KGB prior to the wall falling and the Soviet Union breaking apart.
And he worked his way to the presidency.
He's been president basically for life the last 20 years.
And he's always said, I want to get Ukraine back.
Ukraine has a lot of natural resources.
And more importantly, it's a large producer of food.
It's a place that Russia really needs and wants.
Putin has always wanted it.
If you understand that, you understand Putin's personality and his personality is he doesn't want to be his fears to be taken advantage of.
He feels like when they gave up Ukraine, he was taken advantage of.
So then fast forward, 2014, Obama's president, Putin says he's going to go there and he goes there and he takes Crimea.
Now, President Trump comes in then.
He doesn't do anything.
President Biden comes back in and he goes ahead and reinvades the country.
He wrote a 5,000-word paper talking about how he was going to do this.
And I think one of the biggest mistakes that we made as a country and NATO made on foreign policy is we gave Putin the fig leaf to invade Ukraine.
He always wanted to.
And the reason he's using is, I don't want them to become part of NATO because then I would have NATO at my border.
And while we talked about it in our nation and while NATO talked about it, it was never a thing.
It was never going to happen.
And the mere fact that the Biden administration implied that Zelensky and Ukraine could possibly be a member of NATO gave President Putin the fig leaf in the world's eyes to go ahead and invade.
And now we have a real problem.
You have Chernobyl.
You have the countries going to fall.
Right now, Kiev is under siege.
I just got that report right before I came on air.
And so they're doing everything they can to take Ukraine.
They have the fig leaf with the international community.
And now you have India talking about supporting Russia to help them around the sanctions.
And we are not doing anything as a nation to stop Russia as far as sanctions that would be effective as far as opening our natural resources here, which could cut off a huge economic supply to Russia because they really don't have the ability to wage a prolonged incursion.
So how much fight do you think the Ukrainians have in them?
How long do you think this conflict will last?
Because if it's not just kind of a, if it takes a week or two weeks or three weeks to take over Kiev, they're saying it could happen in days, but then what?
What if there are millions of Ukrainians in the woods and in the rural parts of Ukraine that aren't going to live under this?
This potentially could get very messy.
It could if we look at it from the optics of how we fought in Afghanistan, how we were handcuffed in Afghanistan.
If they take over Ukraine, I think they'll take it over fairly quickly.
The Russians don't play by any rules.
They've moved fast.
They've moved with great precision.
I'm sure they had a lot of their special forces.
The Speznets were already there.
GRU, their military intelligence people, were already there.
My understanding is they're hunting Zelensky and his family.
And what most likely we're going to see is a setup where you have a government in exile.
Now, will the Ukrainians fight?
They don't have much to fight with because back when we had the opportunity to arm them in 2014, the Obama administration, the Obidin, that's a Freudian slip, would not give them lethal aid.
And then when President Trump was in, there was no reason to.
And now you have the situation where we could have armed them and we could have given them the support that they needed.
So I don't know if they have the ability to wage a prolonged incursion.
They might if Russia shows great restraint, if Russia just has a large military industrial complex that wants to build bases and pass out contracts and make money.
But since I don't think they have the financial resources for that in their country, they're going to have to move quickly, move fast, replace the government, and move on.
And we're in a unique position right now in our nation because our allies don't trust us and our enemies don't fear us.
And so you have India helping Russia or at least helping them financially potentially by helping them skirt sanctions, which would have never happened before.
But then, of course, we left Afghanistan abruptly, put Pakistan in charge, and India and Pakistan are not exactly friends.
Yeah, so that was my final question.
I wanted to ask you, Keith, is how much did the Afghanistan debacle, the way that we handled that withdrawal, play into what we're seeing right now in Ukraine?
Charlie, the Afghanistan debacle laid the foundation for the complete implosion of not only the Biden administration's foreign policy, but it also opened the door for a lot of countries to become aggressive and to recognize that we have a real problem in our own country.
Basically, we supported the Afghans for almost two decades, and then we left them high and dry, but we left $80 plus billion dollars of lethal aid there.
We did that.
Pakistan filled the vacuum.
You have Siraj Hakani as their defense minister, who is a proxy for the ISIS directorate.
And the Indians, India knows this, and they see what happened.
So one of our best allies with over a billion people watched us walk away from an ally and leave lethal aid that the country that they are actually fighting in Kashmir, they got that lethal aid.
So India sees it.
China sees it.
You're having incursions into Taiwan airspace.
And again, I can't state this enough.
When your allies don't trust you and your enemies don't fear you, that sets the stage for people to get their inner Maduro on or their inner Mussolini on.
And you see tyrants move or you see large nation states take territory because they know that right now America is a paper tiger, unless, of course, you were involved in January 6th, and then you got to be very careful.
But we seem to be so focused on clamping down on free speech and misinformation by their definition in our nation.
And there are very real world consequences to this.
And we're seeing this play out right now in Ukraine.
And we may see it play out in Taiwan.
It's just, it's hard to watch.
And so in closing here, Keith, the U.S. response will probably be nothing.
And I don't think troops are the answer.
And you agree with that.
And so I suppose we're watching this kind of new axis created between Russia and China.
Is that the new state of affairs globally?
It's the new state of affairs, Charlie, if and only if we have inaction as far as real policy that we could push right now.
If the United States suddenly pivots, opens up our energy sector, opens up drilling, opens up fracking, opens up the production of oil and liquefied natural gas, increases our export to Europe, we could use this moment to immediately reduce Russia's ability to expand their power by shutting them down economically.
We could have done this back with the Kurds opening up the Ambar, the Ambar fields and running a pipeline from Kurdistan into Europe would have hurt Russia too.
But Russia's always been two steps ahead of us on the chessboard.
But this would be a time to do something they wouldn't expect, like take the foot off the energy sector in America, open that up.
And then we also need to clean up some of these foreign policies that we currently have around the world.
And the first I think we can do.
The second, I don't believe right now in leadership we have it in the DOD and in this administration to do the necessary changes that could help that.
Keith, always a pleasure to have you on.
Thank you for your clarity and your wisdom.
We really appreciate it.
Thanks, Charlie.
God bless.
Look, there's so much political pressure out there from the left and the woke mob, and it's from the Democrat Party.
Our society has ultimately been controlled by canceled cultural elites.
Look, we talk openly on this program about what you need to do.
And so I am involved.
I am invested personally and also through the Charlie Kirk show to try to do everything we possibly can to try and push back against these Democrats and their lies.
Why Ukraine Needs Guns00:06:12
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I'm watching video after video of Ukrainian citizens get in line and try to figure out what a firearm is.
I'm actually here at Big Daddy Unlimited Guns here in Gainesville, Florida, a great Second Amendment supply company.
And as you watch these Ukrainian citizens, I'm laughing because they really have no idea how to handle a firearm.
It really makes you appreciate the wisdom of the founding fathers and to take a step backwards and to say, wait a second, if Ukraine had a robust Second Amendment, would Putin invade?
This is a very legitimate question.
I'm not saying this tongue-in-cheek.
Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if Ukraine had widespread gun ownership and a skilled citizenry that knew how to use those guns?
If the 45 million people of Ukraine were able to own weapons and had a gun culture similar to America, would Putin feel emboldened to invade that country?
Ukraine does not have a Second Amendment like we do in America, highly controlled firearms.
We could look into the specifics of it, but they do not have widespread gun ownership.
There are cars and trucks arriving full of weapons for citizens, and they're pulling out these guns and they're trying to figure out how to use them.
I was just thinking, man, if a hypothetical, if Mexico or Canada decided to try to invade America, there'd be millions of people that would immediately have lots of weapons at their home and they would know how to use them.
They'd be familiar with them.
They'd be comfortable with them.
So it's one thing to have the willingness to fight.
A lot of Ukrainians right now have the willingness to fight Vladimir Putin, but they don't have the capacity to fight.
And the second amendment has so many different implications.
It's helpful for self-defense, but it was really built to be able to protect freedom and liberty against usurpatious and tyrannical governments.
Now, the Ukrainian government is super corrupt.
It's not like they're the greatest country ever.
What's happened to them is awful.
And what's happening to the Ukrainian people is even worse.
My heart goes out to the Ukrainian people.
The Ukrainian government's really corrupt and has made a lot of mistakes.
Not a fan of Zelensky, but I do think he's actually standing in pretty brave for the situation, all things being equal.
He's no, what is the guy?
Ghani.
He's no Ghani who just fled.
However, it reminds me of this quote by Isoroku Yamamoto, who was one of the most famous generals of the Imperial Project of Japan.
He said, quote, you cannot invade the mainland of the United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.
Isoroko Yamamoto was a Japanese Marshal Admiral of the Imperial Japanese Navy and was the commander-in-chief of the Combined Fleet of World War II until his death.
And so I think this is a question, which is, if America really wanted to help Ukraine, why didn't we try to have widespread gun ownership in Ukraine?
I don't know if that would have helped anything.
Putin might have just rolled his eyes and be like, yeah, okay, whatever peasant, you have a gun, I don't care.
Or maybe it might have made a difference.
We know it did with Japan's own writings.
If Ukraine would have at least been allowed to have widespread gun ownership, but again, remember the people who were running the Ukrainian desk?
It was people like John Kerry and Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton who don't believe in anyone to be able to own weapons except their own armed guards.
So now Ukraine has a pretty weak military compared to Russia.
They're doing everything they possibly can to hold the line.
They're trying to train people how to use weapons.
It's kind of a mess and a circus.
And but remember, it was a citizen-led revolution that helped topple the Soviet Union.
And it makes you think that the principle of the Second Amendment very well could have been a fundamental point of keeping Ukraine sovereign and protect the citizens.
Be very thankful we have a Second Amendment, everybody.
It is something that is a bulwark and a hedge and a firewall against any form of tyranny.
If people are not able to defend themselves, if you do not have the capacity or the technology to be able to defend what you love personally, not just civilizationally, then you're inherently less free.
You are then held hostage to the person who has the guns.
Ukraine could have converted their entire citizenry into a standing army.
They're trying to do that right now.
And it makes you think: why didn't you give people the liberty, the freedom to do that previously?
If they were so worried about Putin invading for the last 20 years, which is all we're told, oh, yeah, Ukraine was worried, why didn't they allow the people of Ukraine to have a Second Amendment?
Oh, maybe because the government of Ukraine was also super corrupt and they didn't want the people to own guns because they wanted to control those people.
There's your answer.
They really wanted to protect against Putin.
They should have trusted their citizens with freedom and liberty.
But they didn't because the government of Ukraine was corrupt and they didn't want them to own weapons either because they might have been displaced or toppled.
Keep people obedient.
And now Ukraine will likely be taken over by whoever has more guns and more power.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your thoughts as always freedom at charliekirk.com.
If you want to support our show, go to charliekirk.com/slash support.
Thank you so much for listening.
God bless.
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