The Parallel Economy, a National Divorce, and What's Going to Happen in 2024? (Crosspost with The Rubin Report)
In this special crosspost with Dave Rubin's "The Rubin Report," the rolls are reversed and Charlie gets interviewed by Dave who poses some incredible questions for Charlie including: What are Charlie's 10 favorite things about Joe Biden? Are Reagan's talking points enough for this generation of conservatives to win? How are young people reacting to the hypocrisy of the woke adults? What does Charlie make of the Democrats' messaging pivot happening now? How are conservatives doing with the creation of a parallel economy and can it succeed with Rumble.com, Locals.com, and Truth Social? Can conservatives create a "techNATO" where if one conservative is attacked they all support each other? Is there a realistic chance of a national divorce? And MORE... This episode is an abridged version of the discussion between Dave and Charlie. To listen to the entire interview, unedited, please check our "The Rubin Report." Support the show: http://www.charliekirk.com/supportSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Things I Control00:03:02
Hey, everybody.
Happy Tuesday.
Hope you are doing well.
We are getting back in the chair today.
Some more episodes coming in just a couple of hours.
But I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation I had with Dave Rubin.
I was being interviewed by Dave Rubin about big tech, about is a national divorce coming, and so much more.
I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation.
You can email me your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
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Here we go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
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Dave, you're a good friend.
Honor to be here.
Thank you for having me.
We've done this a couple of times, and I thought, how can I approach this interview in a way that's a little different than what we've done before?
So I thought we'd start off.
Give me your top 10 reasons you love Joe Biden.
Top 10 reasons I love Joe Biden.
That's, you know, I will say he's actually made me prioritize things in life that matter.
Not to say politics don't matter, but it's been such a dumpster fire.
You have to kind of look outside of all the madness and you're like, okay, what really matters in life, right?
Like, what exactly gives you purpose and meaning?
Because obviously, the things that, you know, we used to, I used to look at the presidency as something I revere, and I guess I still do.
And I love my country, but he's been so awful.
It's like, okay, there's a couple of things I can control in my life, like family and relationships, friendships, career.
And I'm going to focus on those things.
And it's kind of the one of the few things I want to thank Joe Biden for is he has reinforced, at least for me, things that I control and things I cannot control.
Unfortunately, I can't control the southern border.
Road to Hell00:16:11
I can talk about it.
It's wide open and it's a total disaster.
But besides that, I'm not sure what else I would put on that list, Dave.
I thought maybe you could come up with three.
I thought maybe there were going to be three, but I'll accept that.
But for a guy like you, yeah, go ahead.
Well, I mean, I guess if you want to kind of do the whole like, you know, glass half full thing and the perpetual optimist thing, and the best thing about being surrounded is you can shoot in any direction thing, which is basically, look, I do think that there's been unintended consequences of what this regime has been trying to implement, which is the rise of the citizen.
And Trot.
I knew you were going to get there.
That was one of the three I had in there.
Right.
And like the homeschooling revolution and people really caring about their country again.
And there is a window.
There's an opportunity.
There's a chance.
There's a sliver.
I don't think it's by any chance certain that this backfires on them so dramatically that it could be a political realignment, the likes of which our generation we haven't seen in 30 or 40 years.
Do you believe in the machine enough to believe that something like that could happen?
Because that's the direction I thought you were going to go because it's like everything is so bad.
Everything is so upside down.
Even for guys like us who expected this thing to be bad, it's worse than most of us could have imagined.
But do you think the machine will allow, like just in the last couple of days, watching the narrative on COVID shift, like, do you think it'll allow what should happen to happen, that the voice of the people will actually be heard?
Well, thankfully.
Between the media and the whole thing.
That's what I'm talking about.
Yeah.
Well, no, for sure, of course.
Yeah.
Thankfully, critical parts of the machine are falling apart, which gives me hope.
I mean, CNN is basically a Democrat super PAC that no one watches.
Facebook is cratering, which is really, really interesting to see.
Rumble, which you and I really care about, is ascending.
So there are certain trends right now that kind of go into maybe the machine isn't as strong as it once was.
Americans' trust in government is an all-time low.
Americans' trust in corporations are at an all-time low.
You're starting to see people care more about local than national trends, which is really, really important.
So I think the machine is way weaker than it was even a year ago, and let alone five years ago.
I think that there is kind of like a natural law component to this where if you try to build a multi-trillion dollar oligarchy or oligopoly, I should say, the laws of gravity are probably going to push back against you at some point.
There will be leaks and dissension, civil war, fracturing.
And you're seeing a lot of that, not just within the Democrat Party, but within a lot of the superstructures that you and I believe the actual power is vested in.
So look, I could have a cynical take where I'm like, you know what, these people always have power.
The infrastructure is impenetrable.
But I'm not so sure of that.
I think that there is a revival to challenge all these institutions.
And Dave, you've played a really important part in this, which is those of us that love freedom and love the Constitution as the greatest political document ever, we're building our own infrastructure.
We're building our own machine.
And that's been a really exciting trend.
I think the regime is really surprised by it.
I think they're shocked, quite honestly, that we've been able to kind of stand up a YouTube competitor, a payment processing competitor, a Patreon competitor like locals.
So quickly, you're starting to see a higher education competitor of University of Austin.
And all of a sudden, this kind of this monopoly they had on these certain goods and services and credentialing institutions is being challenged in a very serious way.
But they're still way more powerful than us.
There's no doubt.
But I'm optimistic that there might be some legitimate fault lines that are going to materialize in their demise.
That would be a slightly better great reset than the great reset that they've been telling us about.
But I'm curious for you.
Look, I know you off camera too at this point, but I don't know that I've ever fully asked you this before.
Like, you know, you were so obviously a close associate and through turning point in the Trump campaign and you wrote the book, the MAGA Doctrine, the whole thing.
To go from that, and, you know, I would go to Turning Point that the night that I met Trump at Mar-Lago, we were at dinner that very night there, and it was after an event you put together and all that stuff.
And I say that because you were so associated with that.
Now he's not in power.
And I just wonder for you personally, like, what did the last year show?
I'm not talking about the political part of my guy's not in power anymore, but just like the other, you were part of something that was fun and cool, at least from our perspective.
And now you ain't in it.
You know, the thing exists, but like it's not in power anymore.
So like, what is that just personally for you?
Like well, at first it was really demoralizing, not from like an access standpoint or like the fact you could call the president, like whatever.
It was just kind of demoralizing for the country, right?
I mean, especially the month of January, we're like, okay, you know, at New Year's, I remember thinking, all right, okay, Biden's going to be president.
At the very least, we can win these Senate races in Georgia.
You know, we can have a check and balance, separation of powers.
And then January 5th happened.
They're like, okay, we lost that.
And then January 6th happened, which was a catastrophe, right?
For a variety of different reasons.
And so it was a demoralizing couple of weeks in 2021.
And our team at Turning Point USA, which has always been educationally focused, and our team at the Charlie Kirk show, which has obviously been very aligned with the Trump doctrine and his worldview, were talking, what do we stand for?
And we really went to work.
You know, I traveled 330 days in the year of 2021 and went to campuses and churches.
And we didn't talk a lot about Trump, honestly.
And we didn't talk about Biden either.
More than anything else, we talked about what it meant to be an American and what we stood for and why we stood for it.
And it was definitely this moment where I also had to kind of reintroduce myself to a lot of people that just kind of knew me as, oh, you're the guy that defends Trump, right?
And it was, I think, very well received in a lot of different ways.
And I also think it forced our team and our show to go a level deeper.
I spent more time in 2021 of reading deep books and spending time in very complex philosophy and really challenging my ideas and why I believe it and where does it come from?
Because it wasn't just kind of like, okay, the left is out of their mind.
We have to defend the president we have because he's doing a really good job.
And you could kind of get really used to that, right?
But then all of a sudden, when he's displaced from power, there's a lot of people that are saying, okay, do we want to go back to like the Liz Cheney kind of way of doing things?
Or why do we want, you know, borders to be controlled?
And so you have to kind of come from that with an approach that is philosophically based and rooted in a natural rights doctrine and also in timeless ideas while also respecting the fruits of the enlightenment, all these really important things.
And so I think that we've been, I think we're better because of it, honestly.
I think our show is more interesting.
I think our organization is stronger.
I think we're reaching more people.
And, you know, I'm not to say that I'm thankful.
I mean, the country's in horrible shape, but I think we were able to use what was an adversarial situation or a set of circumstances to our advantage.
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Do you think that they think that they're doing good?
I mean, this is a little bit of the road to hell kind of situation.
Like, do you think, I mean, I don't know if Biden's in charge at this point, which if you want to comment on that, feel free.
But like, when they all put their heads on the pillow, when Saki lays down at night, Biden, the rest of them, the Surgeon General, all of these people that are associated with this thing, Fauci, all of them.
Do you really think they're looking at the information, looking at what's going on here, supply chain, inflation, Afghanistan, et cetera, and going, boy, we really are doing a great job.
Man, you ask good questions.
I got to tell you.
I ask questions too every day.
And it's a great question because I get this all the time.
And people say, what is the motive, right?
How do they judge success?
What does the whiteboard look like in the outer room of the oval?
Are we going towards the mission accomplished or are we getting further away from it?
And this is a hard thing for some people on the center right or people that love the Constitution to admit.
It's not hard for me to admit because I kind of understand the left really well.
I think they're right on schedule for what they want.
And I really do believe that they want to be a willing participant in the World Economic Forum great reset.
You mentioned it a little bit sarcastically earlier, but you and I both know this is a very real agenda, which is legit.
I just spent an hour with Glenn Beck on it.
Yeah, and it's, I think that in order to get there, you have to first make America no longer a superpower.
And that doesn't mean you have to kill everybody, right?
I mean, I think there's some extremes people can take towards describing this, but you definitely have to destroy our currency.
You have to deteriorate our sovereignty.
You have to erode the national will.
And then also you have to create mass uncertainty as to what it means to be an American.
And the person that's probably done the best job of this is Nicole Hannah Jones from the 1619 Project.
It's something we talk about every single day at Turning Point USA, which is if you can't tell an agreed upon American story, then you just don't have a country.
I mean, it's such polar opposites where you and I would look at the American founding as a heroic breakthrough of the human story, where Nicole Hannah Jones looks at it as a regressive moment in the human story.
There really isn't much in common from that point forward, right?
When you can't agree on the Federalist Papers, the Declaration, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights.
And so I believe that the people in charge from Ron Klein to Biden, they might have their own little kind of wrinkles of where they think the country should go, but it's definitely in a place where they want to de-emphasize America's role in the world.
They want to weaken America, and they think the world will be better because of it.
This is the most important thing, though, is that, I mean, in the beginning of Aristotle's ethics, there's this incredible line that is hotly debated, which is all human action points towards some good.
Now, you take out the mentally and politically insane from that, but really what he's getting at is that more evil has been done under people believing that they're doing good than anything else.
You take Joseph Stalin, he actually thought he was bettering humanity or bettering himself or whatever.
Very few people are actually, yes, I'm doing what is wrong and I'm going to keep on doing it.
It's a very rare thing.
And I think that these people in charge, and no, I don't think Biden's in charge.
I think he's a puppet for all these other masters.
I actually don't think very much about Biden.
I actually really haven't engaged much in kind of the mental decline kind of meme verse, if you will.
I think it's a little overdone.
We all kind of know he's not there.
I'm more interested in the people behind him and the reason they're doing all this.
But yes, I think that from the Treasury Secretary, Janet Yellen, to Mayorkis to the Educational Secretary, to all of them, I think that they believe that they are all doing what a good comrade should do to try and usher in a globalist type project and the American superpower status of a strong economy, being energy independent, a sound currency, and a national story that we all agree on.
Those are things that are right at the heart of their agenda.
Do you think that conservatives, whatever this new wide 10 thing is at this point, this anti-woke coalition, and we'll see how tightly it can hold.
Do you think we just need a better story?
Do you think the story of just telling American history, say, the way we've seen it or the way that you and I have talked about it for a long time, that maybe that isn't enough, just going back to, say, Reagan talking points as good and decent as they are?
Like, do we need a new story, a new narrative to craft to capture young people?
I mean, obviously that's what you guys are trying to do at Turning Point.
But is just saying freedom and individual rights and capitalism, is it not enough that there has to be something else behind that too?
It's not enough, but it will be enough this year, which worries me.
It will be enough to take back power for Republicans and defeat the woke just to run against the woke.
They're so unpopular.
They're so awful at governing.
And that's the thing, Dave, is that not only do they have bad ideas, they're actually bad at executing their bad ideas.
I mean, it's like the worst possible kind of combination.
Well, no, that's the thing where I got in this debate the other day, and someone says, Charlie, we need more technology in government so they can be more efficient.
I'm like, you know, I'm actually really glad that they're slow.
Yeah.
I'm really glad that they take Arbor Day off because if they didn't, then they'd be like Google, which we know how harmful they can be, which we'll get into the whole corporate side of this.
But I'm worried because I'm afraid that there's going to be kind of a false stimulus effect to the conservative movement.
They're like, oh, all we have to do is run against the woke.
We take back every chamber of power, like the Glenn Youngkin thing, right?
Where I'm afraid that we're going to need a lot more.
And I'll give you an example of what a lot more looks like, which I think conservatives need to think very deeply about a national recovery program.
I think that this country has been so severely damaged by unelected bureaucrats, especially young people, most suicidal, drug-addicted, alcohol-addicted, most anxious, depressed, medicated generation in history, that I think there needs to be an intergenerational apology to try to get this generation back on track.
And I'm not saying massive government programs or some sort of climate core like AOC wants, but I think we should try to make it easier to try to have conservatizing events.
And the three conservatizing events, if you will just accept the term, is to own property, to get married, and have kids.
And hopefully a nice fourth one is have a job that means something to you, right?
That isn't like a minimum wage job or some sort of woke social media manager for Goldman Sachs or whatever, right?
Those four things are harder than ever for this generation to grab onto.
And I think that we need to have pro-market-based conversations outside of just kind of the immediate muscle memory of the dogma of the kind of ghosts of Reagan past and say, how do we make it easier for a 28-year-old that's $100,000 in student loan debt that was locked down for a couple years, right, is really demoralized, might be on an unnecessary regimen of antidepressants.
How do we make it easier for them to break through and buy quote-unquote equity in the American project, right?
Because that actually is a really good thing for the country.
People don't burn down Wendy's if they have a mortgage.
When you're renting all the time, you become a perfect population that could be captured by these kind of woke socialist revolutionaries.
And so, no, I don't think it's just enough to kind of have the slogans.
I think we need to think creatively about these things.
And I think we also need to know why we believe and what we believe it.
The Constitution needs to be our North Star.
It is the greatest political document ever.
Nothing we should do should violate the four basic tenets of the Constitution.
Separation of powers, consent to the governed, independent judiciary, and balance of power, basically.
That's the core basis of the U.S. Constitution.
But with that being said, though, Dave, I think that we have portions of the American population that have been so set back by the lockdowns and government interference that if we don't come up with something more robust or exciting, we're going to be looking at a potential political population that will entertain seriously radical ideas.
Look, it's a new year and not much has changed.
We have inflation.
Houses are selling in a week.
Constitutional Tenets00:08:49
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You know, you see those pictures online of, you know, Stacey Abrams unmasked in front of the kids and Hokul over in New York smiling with the kids.
It's like these kids are going to do some pretty horrible things to old people one day.
You can really feel it.
Do you, not just to talk about it at an idea level, but because you're around so many college kids, kids, I mean, they're young adults, through Turning Point, have you seen a real shift in their attitudes on this stuff?
You know, we go to the events.
When I go to Turning Point Events, it's always so positive and fun and all that stuff.
But like, have you seen a difference in the way they're reacting with the ideas or resentment or whatever it might be?
Definitely on the center right for sure.
Our students are pushing back like crazy.
We have a list.
I was just going through it.
We have 35 schools that have staged walkouts in the last 24 hours at Turning Point USA over the mask mandates.
And we support them 100%.
We're helping them with PR support and Times Legal support, all that stuff, because the mask mandates have gone out of control.
But I will say, Dave, that the mass propaganda, dare I say mass formation psychosis?
You're trying to get us both taken out, man?
Yeah, there we go.
Well, I figure this will be on local, so we know the owner.
They were.
Give me Spotify.
Yeah, exactly.
But, you know, that kind of mass propaganda campaign has really worked on a lot of young people.
And it's kind of a great irony where, and this is a stereotype, but the average 70-year-old, 60 or 70-year-old right now is far less concerned about COVID than I think the average 17-year-old.
And that's a stereotype.
That's like a generalization, I should say.
But there has been a lot of induced fear amongst high school and college kids completely and totally unnecessarily.
And there's a cost to pay for that.
It's going to be a generation that is the least free thinking generation, absent our intervention and trying to get them their humanity back.
It's the most medicated generation, most suicidal generation, the most confused generation, the most directionalist generation.
But we're starting to see some pushback against this and some hopefully writing of that trajectory.
But I don't think it's enough.
I don't think that this is going to fix itself.
I think that we need, and I don't say this lightly, you know that I'm a small government conservative guy, but I think that we need a collective intervention to try to fix some of these trends that have gone so awry.
I don't just think that we're like, oh, well, we shut everything down for two years.
We vaccinated kids who didn't need it and put masks on them.
They had no social development.
They are not speaking the way they should.
The IQs are stunted.
Like everything's going to kind of sort itself out.
I'm not as convinced of that.
I'm not.
I think there's some very interesting, bold, robust, entrepreneurial and creative ideas that could probably fix this.
But I'll be honest, Dave, there's been a little glimmer of hope amongst some of the young people, but it's nowhere near the type of rebellion that I would like to see.
It isn't.
I saw far more activism and energy around Greta Thunberg's The World is Ending Climate Change propaganda and far more energy amongst the average high school kid around Floyd Apalooza than I did around mask mandates, vaccine mandates, or being locked down and not being able to see their friends.
Yeah, and you're not overstating this stuff.
I just read this crazy study about what masks have done to adolescent children who are now having all sorts of delayed speech.
Literally, the muscles in their mouths are not developing the way that they are supposed to because they don't move their mouths and they don't talk enough.
And they can't see the mouth of the teacher so you can mimic it to speak properly.
I mean, it's really, really crazy stuff.
What do you think of the pivot that they're about to do?
We can see it happening right in front of our eyes.
They are the good guys.
They didn't want to lock us down.
They're going to somehow pin this on.
It was the Republicans that did it.
They're all just repeating the stuff that Charlie Kirk, that Charlie Kirk, that Ron DeSantis was saying two years ago, but Charlie Kirk was probably saying some of it too.
We were saying the same thing.
Do you admire the pivot that they're about to do that they're in the process of doing right now?
Do I admire it?
No, I think it's good for the country.
Yeah, it's better now than 10 years from now.
Sure.
Good.
Terrific.
But I mean, look, I don't say this lightly.
There needs to be justice.
People need to go to jail for what they did.
There needs to be some sort of mass firing campaign, decredentialing campaign.
None of that's probably going to happen.
I'll be very honest.
Yeah, but what would that really look like?
Because I've kind of thought about it.
Like, I do think some of these people probably in a really sane society that would grapple with this properly, some of these people would end up in jail, like literally in jail.
But I don't know, what does that really look like?
We're going to have a Nuremberg for COVID-19.
I would love Nuremberg, but I mean, some people say that's radical.
But I mean, there is, I think, a lot of the tenets of Nuremberg.
There's the Media Matters clip for today.
Well, no, I mean, we've done entire shows on Nuremberg.
But yeah, sure.
They could pick it up and run with it.
But that's probably not going to happen.
I try to live in the land of reality.
I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon.
What I would like to see, though, happen, Dave, is a legitimate public policy and legislative campaign around medical autonomy, around medical freedom.
And I think there's a lot of answers we still do not have.
We do not have answers around the money flow from a lot of these pharmaceutical companies to politicians or their campaigns.
We do not have answers as to why early treatments were suppressed.
We've been a very outspoken program on ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, melatonin, aspirin, monoclonal antibodies, intravenous therapy, vitamin D levels.
I think it's one of the great injustices of my life, the fact that most Americans were not properly exposed to those things.
But don't worry, we're subsidizing crack cocaine pipes for people in San Francisco.
All the while the controlled substance our government cares about is the perfectly safe and probably very, very effective ivermectin.
Dude, Biden sent me three crack pipes.
I only need one.
You want me to send you one?
I wouldn't know what to do with it, to be very honest.
So haven't exactly ventured into that domain of human existence.
So yeah, he'd give me lip balm in case my lips get too chapped while smoking crack on the, you know, in Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco.
But yeah, look, what would justice look like?
I don't know, but we definitely need some action, right?
We need legislative changes.
We also, I think, just from a more constitutional perspective, we have to make sure the emergency use powers are never used again by these governors and mayors.
I know that might be wishful thinking, but I think in some red states, they were used and abused way too much.
I think these legislatures have to step up.
And look, if you want to shut down a state, go through the legislative process.
I totally, I would say that's fine.
If like you can get the Ohio state house and state Senate to shut down a state for 30 days, I actually think that's okay.
I think that the courts might knock it down here and there.
But just like the fact that a governor can just sign a piece of paper and shut down bars in schools, I think that's a usurpation of what the Constitution, especially on a state-based level and definitely a federal level, is supposed to be able to do.
I'll give you another example.
The fact that Joe Biden can just sign a piece of paper and say you have to wear a mask on an airplane, go through the legislative process.
So those are some remedies for sure that we have to do that.
I think it could slow down kind of this indulgence of autocratic and tyrannical behavior we've seen.
But we're not going to get the justice that I would want to see.
Dave, I think that any doctor that interfered with a patient trying to get ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine needs to be held criminally accountable.
And I don't say that lightly.
And Dave, you get a lot of emails.
I get a ton of emails.
I have hundreds of emails of people that have relatives that died in the hospital, and they were trying to give them these life-saving drugs.
And the hospital says, oh, those drugs might kill them.
And then they die.
And so it's like, what we're dealing from already the potential of we know death is in the cards.
So why wouldn't you try some of the more, you know, let's say, you know, censored treatments.
And so I think there needs to be justice with that.
And the hospitals need to be held accountable.
But just kind of managing expectations, that's probably not going to happen.
But the last thing you said, do I admire it?
No, I don't admire it.
Why are they doing it?
Justice for Rogan00:05:33
Well, the science has not changed.
No matter what, you know, Dr. Wentz says.
Yeah, I mean, look, and this is the thing is that trust the science, trust the science.
We did a whole podcast on this that I think it was really well received.
One of the best podcasts we've done in a while as far as like response, which is that they conflate two things, right?
So they conflate things that we would call the natural law, like force equals mass times acceleration, the irrefutable tenets of Western science, right?
The inquiry into the natural world, second law of thermodynamics, the inevitable law of decay.
And they conflate that with conjecture and hypothesis, right?
So they put that all into kind of the same term as if if you challenge wearing three masks while you shower, you're somehow at war with Copernicus, right?
And like the average engineer who works at Ford, right, is like, well, you know, I'm trading the sciences.
I don't ever want to question that.
When in reality, they had that which we know and that which we think we know.
And they were never honest enough to separate those two things.
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Let's link some of this to the big tech stuff that you and I have been talking about forever.
And as you said, we're both involved in the Rumble situation.
You were sort of early on with the Rumble team.
Obviously, locals merge with Rumble.
There's a lot going on there.
Do you honestly think we have a chance?
I mean, even just in the last couple of days, look, we put our best foot forward.
We made this offer to Joe Rogan.
He may not take it, but we felt it was the best thing we could do to defend our principles and fight for what we believe in.
We shall see.
You know, we're fighting on every front, the payment processor front, the AWS front, the algorithm front.
But do you think we can really do it?
We don't have a choice.
We have to win.
We have to get this right or else everything we love falls apart.
I have been so encouraged, though, just in the last 12 months, Dave, how much momentum there is behind this kind of new technology space.
From locals, which is terrific, which is a way to bypass the Patreon gatekeepers, to the content creators that have gone all in on Rumble, you, our program, Dan Bongino, Dinesh D'Souza, Russell Brand, Tulsi Gabbard, you know, freedom-loving, liberty-loving people all across the spectrum, but do believe that big tech tyranny is an existential threat.
I thought the offer to Rogan was really brilliant.
I don't know Rogan.
I've met him once.
I think it would be really smart of him personally to take the Rumble deal because they are not going to stop.
This censorship hit job train.
He says, oh, has Spotify stood by me?
I don't think so.
They're removing episodes and putting disclaimers.
You and I are way too cynical for that, Dave.
We've been through this entire program many times.
And maybe a couple of years ago, we might have said that.
But, and look, it's definitely the Rumble was really smart to offer the $100 million because it made it legit.
And we'll see what Rogan ends up doing, right?
I mean, he signaled towards Spotify or whatever.
But the point is that it wasn't totally laughed off, Dave.
And that shows how real Rumble is, right?
That shows that we can win this.
So to answer your question on the probability argument, I first made a moral argument.
We have to win this.
We have to do this.
I think Rumble is going to be a 20 or 30 or $40 billion company.
I'm confident of that because there is a center right of the planet, not just the country, that is desiring a platform that actually allows voices to speak their mind and not be taken off and not have these sort of woke gatekeepers.
But look, there are going to be institutional challenges.
But to, you know, I know we keep talking about Rumble, but they're not, you're not alone.
There's other people in playing, but Rumble's definitely the most sophisticated, I think, best funded and most momentum.
I think that, I think that it's ahead of schedule.
And I think that there's going to be starts.
I think there's some chatter already in Silicon Valley of what are we going to do about these Rumble guys?
Well, you can't shut off their servers, right?
You could probably go after their advertisers for now, but then you got locals, which is hundreds of thousands of grassroots people supporting people via Patreon, which is going to be incredibly effective to be able to kind of have the super chat feature of videos, which is a huge revenue source for Google.
There'll be institutional ads that will always go behind Rumble that are on the center right.
And so what else do they kind of have in the tickler file to try to go after Rumble?
Okay, they're going to try to go after the ad network.
They're going to try to go after New York Times, Washington Post.
You're platforming hateful people.
Yeah, but when you start to have a roster of Dave Rubin, Charlie Kirk, you know, Daily Wire is coming online is what I'm hearing.
You have Dan Bongino and others.
All of a sudden, you're like, yeah, okay, we're going to link arms and we've created Technado.
Technado Conflict00:15:09
And we have Article 6 and you attack one of us.
Technado.
You didn't just come up with that, did you?
You used that one before.
Come on.
I've never said it out loud, but I have wrote it.
I have a whole pamphlet of kind of one-liners, but you could use it.
Technado.
Technato.
It's Article 5 or Article 6 of NATO, which is attack on one of us is attacked on all of us, right?
And to kind of tie in the whole Ukrainian thing, that's why Ukraine and NATO is such a controversial thing.
It's like Putin crosses the line.
It's the same as invading Paris or London.
And it's like, okay, you go after Dave Rubin, then you have to deal with all of us and our combined power and our combined followers.
And I'm starting to see that solidarity.
And guess what?
That word solidarity is something that we freedom-loving people don't do well.
But when we do it, we win.
It's not in our blood.
We're all entrepreneurs or individuals.
We think we could do things better than each other, right?
We're competitors.
You know, we'll go out to dinner with one another and they'll be like, yeah, I kind of like that idea.
And that, like, whatever.
But that's what's beautiful about markets.
But now we're at war and we need solidarity and we need alliances.
So I think we got a chance to win.
Okay, so let's say we build this stuff and it's all great.
And yes, we are working real hard and there's a lot of questions, but there's a lot of answers as well.
So we start building all that.
We know that the trends where people are moving are going very heavily, you know, to freedom-loving places.
Nobody's moving to blue states right now.
I think California lost almost 400,000 people last year, first now loss of population ever.
As these things continue to go, I mean, what keeps us the United States?
If we've just got our own products and we've got our own states and they've got their products and their states, where are we united?
Well, we aren't.
And you're right.
And so just to kind of reinforce the point, though, you know, Netflix is down, Facebook is down, California is down, Florida is up, Texas is up, Rumble is up, right?
So look, I've said this for quite some time.
I think we're living through a slow-motion secession movement, and the act of secession is happening on United Airlines every day in the nonstop flight from Los Angeles to Orlando or from Los Angeles to Miami.
It's a movement of secession.
And it's not a one that breaks the country apart immediately, but they're starting to say out loud what I have feared.
And it's mostly pop icon people, you know, Sarah Silverman or that guy from Hellboy, whatever his name is.
No, that's not bad, Ron Pearl.
Yeah, whatever.
And they're saying it out loud.
I don't want to live in the country with you.
You don't want to live with me.
Let's go our separate ways.
And a very provocative but honest thought exercise for your audience and for all of us to kind of dwell over, which is what do I, Charlie Kirk, who live in Phoenix, what do I have in common with a San Francisco woke activist that's 24 years old that just graduated from UC Berkeley?
I believe America's awesome.
They believe America is awful.
I believe in basic natural rights.
They believe in collective and tribal rights.
I believe in free speech.
They believe in power.
I believe that we should have borders.
They don't believe in borders.
I could go through the whole checkpoint.
The checklist.
The only thing that we have in common is the dollar bill that we're trading.
It's literally the whole project is basically hinging on a currency.
And that is not an over-exaggeration.
You don't have a shared story.
You don't have shared values.
You don't have a shared future.
You don't have shared policy prescriptions.
Everything is quote unquote politicized and divided.
And so, you know, we've kind of dwelled in this field to the great, you know, the great cost of being written up in Media Matters, which is a wonderful thing to happen.
They're like PR experts.
They love you over there.
They like you more than me with all the pieces they do on you.
It's great.
They write up what you say and it's right there.
And then you could share it.
Like, hey, look, but look, we are right on the hinge.
We're right on the edge of a national divorce.
Now, I have a contrarian view on this, which is I actually think the sooner we build the parallel economy and we have these other mediums, I actually think it de-escalates the chance for a national divorce.
I think it's the exact opposite.
Yeah, I like that.
Actually, it's kind of like, all right, you do you, we do us.
Like, maybe we can have like a five-year cooling off period before we actually sign the divorce papers, right?
And I don't think, I think the more that we live under their tyranny, you're going to see real radicalism rise up that I hate and you hate, right?
Where people are starting to talk about things that I don't want the country to break up.
I think it's an awful thing.
It's my home.
It's your home.
I don't want to have to show a passport when I go to LAX.
It's like, I want that to be my fellow countrymen.
I don't know if they believe that.
I think that they want to, I think, there's two thoughts on this, right?
Which is most of the leftist rulers will reject a national divorce because they want the whole enchilada, right?
They want every county.
They want every inch, and they want us to live in their tyranny.
Like they are up at night really angry that some Baptist preacher in Enid, Oklahoma is not like perfectly in alignment with like every single one of their worldviews, right?
Like that really bothers them.
Where it's like as a conservative, like I don't really care about some guy in Brooklyn that hates me.
Like, okay, whatever.
It's like, so who's the actual liberal in this equation, right?
Like, who's the live and let live guy, right?
It's like, is it the Baptist preacher, the conservative in Phoenix?
Or is it like the person in Brooklyn that's really angry that someone disagrees with them in like central Iowa?
But, you know, that's part of it.
But I think that, so those are the kind of the imperial Democrats, right?
They want to take over territory.
It's like, we are not going to stop till everyone succumbs to our agenda.
And then the other side of it, though, are like the Sarah Silverman, Ron Perlman types, which they're actually being more humble and honest.
I have to say that I have way more respect for people that are like, let's just break up and not fight.
And that's actually a better, that's a better starting point than like, we're going to take over Kansas.
Like, well, hold on, hold on a second.
Like, probably not going to happen.
That's not in the cards.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, but can I put a fly in that ointment on the second one for you, which is they're saying let's break up and just that's it, but they'll never let that be.
I think you would agree with that, right?
If we give them the breakup that they want, Sarah Silverman, guess what she wants?
It's like she'll never stop.
She's not going to stop as Florida flourishes, as Arizona flourishes and Texas flourishes, and as their places, you know, just crumble.
They're not going to stop.
Now they're going to want what we got.
So the second one might be more honest, but it's not, I don't think it's fully thought through.
No, it's not thought through.
And look, there's, and this is not exaggerated.
There's a thousand externalities that I don't have answers for.
Military, water rights, ports of entry, right?
Like who gets rights to minerals?
How do you travel back and forth?
How do you divide the citizenship?
What if you don't want to live there?
I mean, it's like, again, we have, if we actually put our heads together, there's enough mature people that could probably figure this out.
But if we're dealing with Chuck Schumer, like, I don't know, like, that's probably not going to go well.
Do you know what I mean?
He's like, no, no, no, no.
Actually, I want Marshalton, Iowa.
Like, you can't have, right?
And so, yeah, that's why I and you, we want to heal this land.
We want this to work.
We want this republic to stay together.
I don't think there is a manageable exit from this.
And I don't, I would rather solve this with ballots than bullets, as Abraham Lincoln said.
And I don't want this to go to conflict.
I'm afraid it's trending that way.
And the media always says like, oh, Charlie thinks the Civil War is coming.
First of all, I never use that term.
But when I say conflict, I don't think that's out of the cards.
I want it to happen, but you can only raise the temperature in the room so much before you kind of provoke a kinetic response.
And so I actually think the parallel economy is going to be an unintended pressure release valve for liberty-loving people across the country, which is like, okay, now I at least have a place I can watch videos.
Like now I have a place I can bank, right?
Now I have a place I can get a mortgage.
And I think that's going to hopefully bring the temperature down in the room despite the, you know, the best wishes of the other side.
That seems like, it seems like they want conflict, which is a whole different conversation for a different time.
It seems like they want us to punch first and then they could justify the security state apparatus behind it.
Yeah, this concept of building the parallel economy purely to keep it together is actually interesting because most people think of it as, oh, that accelerates the separation because then we can just go our separate ways.
But I like this.
I like this release valve idea, Kirk.
You got one today.
Very impressive.
Thank you.
You got one.
All right.
Now let me get you in some real trouble.
Okay.
Because everybody is looking to the midterms and there's this feeling that there's going to be this red wave.
Although, as I said, we're seeing the pivot happen in real time.
And you can also feel the media trying to link January 6th to somehow the truckers and that we're exporting a worldwide insurrection and all of this nonsense.
But I want to ask you this.
Well, A, I guess give me a little bit of your take on what you think is going to happen in the midterms and are there areas we could focus in to make sure that we get a nice result.
But B, you know, everyone's looking at the 2024 situation.
I want DeSantis to stay the governor of Florida.
That's what I want.
I think the state you live in is way more important.
I think he's only been in one term so far.
He's done a heck of a job.
I just think that's more important than the presidency, believe it or not, although obviously it is important.
Do you, as a guy that at least part-time lives in Florida, or is there a lot, do you like that idea?
Do you think he should run?
Where does Trump fall out?
What do you know on the inside?
The whole damn thing, Charlie.
I'll start with the midterms.
I think Republicans are going to do well.
I'm worried that we're not going to do nearly as well as we should.
Every single indicator shows Republicans are going to take back the House.
Senate is a little bit up for grabs.
This should be a 60 or 70 year seat majority for the House of Representatives, which is enough where you could hold on to that for at least two or three more cycles.
So I don't know.
It remains to be seen.
Democrats are going to try to correct a couple things.
You could start to see that already.
They're having Obama come in and try to tell them to not be so radical out loud.
He's really good at kind of saying stop tell the truth, right?
Like that, that's kind of his whole deal, to try to tell people that are running for office to just camouflage the radicalism, right?
Just tell people what they want to hear.
So I think that they're going to, I think they're going to get their parade in order shortly.
That's my warning to Republicans.
I still think we're going to do very, very well, especially in some of these Senate races like Arizona and Georgia.
I think it'll be a seven to 10 point swing on top of what things naturally are.
I'm afraid I'll reinforce a point I said earlier.
I think it will be a misleading indicator of the health of the Republican Party because of how bad the Democrats are.
This will be a massive indictment of the woke and the Democrats and the insane and the COVID lockdowns where people are just looking for some way that they can just like, what can I vote for that isn't them?
I think Virginia was an example of that.
I think the incredibly unexpected airtight race in New Jersey was an example of that.
I think a Republican winning the city attorney's race in Seattle was an example of that.
That's all back in November, but it's important to remind people of that.
So that's one thing.
I'm happy to go more into that.
It's still, it's too early to kind of make predictions on like seat majorities, but I am not seeing from Republicans what I really want, which is a new Gingrich style contract with America promises clear and concise, here's what we're going to do.
And it's not just, you know, free trade and giving China what they want and a mass amnesty plan and lower taxes.
And socialism is bad enough, right?
I think voters want more than that.
And I think they want honesty.
So on the Trump thing in 2024, he is going to run.
Every single indication points towards that.
I think actually Trump will benefit from a primary challenge.
I think that if he actually has to run against somebody who isn't a joke, I actually think that would really be good for him.
I think that's one of the things that made him such a powerful general election candidate in 2016 because he had some of the most amazing metaphorical political CrossFit training one could have.
I mean, he ran up against like 29,000 people, right?
It was like 16, but it was like from every direction, right?
It was like, boom, Scott Walker and boom, Ben Carson.
It was like Jeb Bush and Ted Cruz.
It was like nonstop.
By the time he had to run against Hillary, he's like, I ran against 16 people.
This is nothing.
So I think that I'm not trying to encourage someone to run against him.
I would rather see him obviously go unopposed if that's necessary.
It's probably better for him in the sense of, you know, not having to spend as much money.
But I actually think kind of shaking off kind of some of the dust and getting back into the metaphorical ring could be really, really good for him.
As far as DeSantis goes, I think he's unbelievable.
I think he's the greatest governor of the last 10 or 20 or 30 years.
I can't think of a better governor.
Ron DeSantis has done everything right and everything issue that matters to me, from vaccine mandates to opening up Florida to being strong on crime across the board.
He's been phenomenal.
I think someone like DeSantis, or it could be him, is the future of the Republican Party.
I truly do.
But Trump's going to run.
And that's going to be a challenge for a lot of people.
I think that once you win one presidential election, you deserve a chance to run again.
I really do.
In 2020, there were massive irregularities.
Happy to get into all the kind of voter fraud conversation if you want.
I think Dinesh D'Souza's new film is extraordinary in what it looks into.
And the evidence is very, very compelling.
I think some of that could be shirred up.
I think Trump could win again.
And look, I think that there's positives and negatives to him running again.
The positives are he was a terrific president.
He was tremendous.
We know what we're getting.
He has a base unlike anything we've ever seen.
He'll raise a bunch of money in small dollar donations.
He'll work his tail off.
And I think that he also has a record to run on in contrast to this current absolute dumpster fire that we are seeing in real time.
And also, make no mistake, I don't think people are really looking forward to having another Democrat president after four years.
If we had, I want people to think about this, if we had a parliamentary system and there was right now a national vote of no confidence against Joe Biden, he'd get run out of there immediately.
Now, we don't have that type of system, right?
We just don't.
But if the election were held today, Donald Trump would just clobber him in every, like he would win like 40 states.
I think he would win New Hampshire.
He'd win Nevada.
And so, look, I also think though that Trump has to have, he has to make some adjustments going in 2024.
If you're running up against a self-destructive candidate, do not get in the way of your enemy defeating himself.
I think that was something that's a great learning lesson from 2020.
And I think 2016, Trump, where he was big, bold, ambitious, and he was willing to capture the imagination of the American people, I think he has to play a little bit more into that.
It's hard when you're an incumbent to do that.
I get it.
But 2016, Trump, he made people dream.
He really pushed the boundaries of what a political candidate is allowed to talk about.
I think he could recapture that in a very, very compelling way in 2024.
Charlie Kirk, it's been a pleasure talking to you, my friend.
I will see you probably in, I sense it will be on the west coast of Florida.
What do you think?
West Coast of Florida is the place to be.
So honored, Dave.
Thank you.
See you soon.
Thank you.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Thank you so much for listening.
God bless.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk. com.