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June 23, 2021 - The Charlie Kirk Show
35:42
Countering Critical Race Theory from a Christian Perspective with Voddie Baucham
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Protect Your Home Title 00:04:28
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Hey, everybody.
Today on the Charlie Kirk Show, Vodi Bockam, author of Fault Lines, one of the best and most important conversations we've ever had on critical race theory.
What is it?
Where does it come from?
Vodi talks about the need to challenge this pernicious and evil ideology, how it's infecting our cultural institutions, as well as our churches.
Vodi is a black American who understands how important it is to speak out against this issue at this time.
Spread this podcast with your friends, especially if you are a person of faith.
If any of your friends are engaging or participating in BLM Incorporated or critical race theory, this is the podcast for you.
If you want to support our program, go to charliekirk.com slash support.
Email us your questions.
As always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
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Bodhi is here.
Buckle up, everybody.
Here we go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country.
He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
That's why we are here.
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I am here with a hero, a truth teller, a great guy.
And actually, I think I just met you today this morning, but I've known about you.
Yeah, it's the first time.
Bodie Bockham, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate you having me.
Author of Fault Lines for all of you watching on Rumble, R-U-M-B-L-E.com, the social justice movement and evangelicalism's looming catastrophe.
Tell us about the book.
Yeah, it was a labor of love, a labor of love for the bride.
I have been talking about these things for a while and was really concerned with what I was seeing in terms of Christians being duped by and in some cases just embracing and imbibing this critical social justice movement.
And it's, you know, there's some books you want to write and other books you have to write.
I felt like this was a book I had to write.
And it's done phenomenally well.
I've had hundreds of people send me your content.
And so I'm so thrilled to be able to sit down with you.
And you are a, you get to the point.
You're a direct speaker.
You don't talk in overly academic prose or diction.
You get straight to the truth.
And so this really hits home for me because so many pastors that I grew up with and grew up watching have all of a sudden decided to kind of mix into their potion of Christianity this heavy dosage of wokeness.
Marxist Ideology in Schools 00:07:51
And next thing you know, churches I used to drive by, even one here in Highland Park, Texas, has a BLM flag bigger than the American flag.
Whether they should have a BLM flag or not is even more of a disturbing question.
So you wrote this first and foremost to diagnose this problem.
And I love the term fault line because you're saying this could really be destructive and disastrous to the church.
Let's first talk about what is critical race theory.
Why does it present an existential threat to the church, both domestically and globally?
Well, critical race theory comes out of critical legal studies.
And again, when you hear that word critical, I try to tell people when you hear that word critical, their ears need to perk up.
They're telling you something when they use that term critical.
They're telling you that they're coming from the Frankfurt School of critical theory.
They're telling you that they're applying neo-Marxism.
They're telling you that they're operating from an oppressor-oppressed paradigm.
They're telling you that they're trying to problematize whatever it is that they're addressing so that they can bring about a revolutionary political solution to whatever that issue is, which ends in a reversal of this oppressor-oppressed paradigm.
So critical race theory is one of the many applications of this sort of Gramscian Frankfurt School neo-Marxist ideology to the issue of race in America.
It views racism as normal.
It views racism as baked in to American culture and ideology.
This is why, for example, the 1619 project is so important.
America can't be based on those lofty ideals of the Declaration of Independence in 1776 or in the Constitution ratified in 1787.
It has to be somewhere else.
So let's just go to 1619, you know, when first slaves, you know, come over or whatever, so that we don't have to deal with those ideals, which contradict the idea that America is systemically and irreparably racist.
So critical race theory, critical theory, is all about viewing things through that lens.
It's a worldview.
What I love about your book is that you define your terms before you go into them.
You talk about who Antonio Gramsci was.
You talk about his letters from prison.
You talk about how Marxism went through this evolution that started as an economic theory and then came into more of a cultural prose.
Talk about Herbert Marcuse.
Talk about who this man was, what he believed, and then what he started here in the States.
Yeah, Marcuse and Lukac, you know, these are the individuals that come from Germany.
They give us, you know, the Frankfurt School.
And you have to understand Antonio Gramsci and him in Italy under the fascists, being in prison under the fascists.
They're looking at this economic idea.
They see the Bolshevik revolution.
They believe that Europe's going to fall like dominoes, and it doesn't.
So Gramsci begins to think about why this happened.
He comes up with the idea of cultural hegemony, is really the idea that there is an oppressive worldview that causes the oppressed to accept their oppression.
And so if you want to see this revolution, you've got to deal with this hegemony with this worldview.
And the way that you do that is by controlling the robes of society.
And so, you know, you control the law, you control education, you control religion.
So now, you know, this sort of moves things in this cultural direction.
Then the Frankfurt School in Frankfurt, Germany, how do they influence America?
Well, Hitler comes to power, World War II happens, and they come over to the United States and they start to influence places like Columbia, places like UCLA, and then institutions like Hollywood, you know.
And what they're doing is they're applying this Marxist ideology.
And I say neo-Marxist ideology because it's really Gramsci's ideology about changing the hegemony, about influencing the culture so that you upset things from within.
And so Marcusa and the Frankfurt School, these individuals start really plying their trade and really thinking through and getting at the very practical issues of how you transform a culture from within through the application of Gramsci and neo-Marxism.
And Marcuse taught Angela Davis, who is actually a communist.
That's not pejorative.
She's a self-described communist.
Yes.
That's always interesting, is it, when somebody identifies themselves as a communist and you say they're a communist, you always have to explain.
No, no, I'm not just calling names.
Well, that's why absolutely, absolutely.
She calls herself a communist and she's part of the World Communist International League.
And so the issue here in our country is that this is growing with serious momentum.
Yes.
It's growing in numbers and it's growing in speed.
That's because it grew deep before it grew wide.
Explain that.
So what the Frankfurt School does is they take that long march through the institutions, right?
Yes.
So where do the 60s radicals go?
They went to the institutions, specifically schools of education and journalism and political science.
And then these new areas of study, often referred to as the grievance studies, right?
So queer studies, feminist studies, you know, different ethnic studies and so on and so forth.
Things like critical race theory, critical pedagogy.
So Paulo Freire, right?
Critical pedagogy.
You know, we're using this to teach teachers.
Yes.
And so because they went deep into these institutions, they were then able to have influence broadly in the culture through these individuals who were trained and educated without even recognizing.
I often say if you got a degree in education, you got a minor in neo-Marxism and you didn't even get credit for it on your diploma.
That's funny.
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Guilt vs Personal Responsibility 00:04:58
I'm going to play devil's advocate and pretend to be a leftist.
So they're going to go grab me a vegan smoothie and I'm going to try my best to play a leftist and ask you the toughest questions I possibly can, Bodhi, because I agree with everything you're saying, but I'm going to play opposite.
Aren't we called as Christians to seek justice, to be vessels for God's will here on earth?
What is so wrong with wanting to say that we want to take money from rich people, that we want to displace power from white people?
Aren't we all racist?
Well, actually, the problem with that is that CRT doesn't argue that we're all racist.
It argues that some of us are actually incapable of being racist.
So when you say we're all racist, I'm agreeing with you 100%.
The Bible's agreeing with you 100% because of the pride that's in the heart of every man.
But the problem with this ideology is that it says some people are guilty of that sin and other people are incapable of being guilty of that sin.
White people are guilty of that sin and they can't get away from being guilty of that sin.
And minorities, people of color, are not even capable of being guilty of that sin, which is why they talk about structural racism and systemic racism.
Because if racism is in structures, structures, and systems, then you don't need it to be present in people.
To your other question, you know, shouldn't we be and mustn't we be about justice?
The answer to that is absolutely.
God makes that very clear.
But social justice is redistributive justice.
Social justice is not the justice that you do or I do to our fellow man.
Social justice is redistributing resources so that various groups have equitable outcomes on all things.
Well, that cuts completely against the grain of scripture.
I mean, you have huge problem, for example, with Jesus and the parable of the talents because, you know, you've got the 10, you got the five, you got the one.
You've already got a problem because he didn't distribute the talents equitably in the first place.
Then he comes back and the person with the one talent didn't do a good job and he takes it from him and gives it to the one with 10 instead of going the other way around.
Social justice would have said, take it from the one who made all that money and give it to the one who was scared to invest, right?
But again, that's not what Jesus talks about in the parable of the talents.
And so, yes, we're about justice, but biblical justice is about the righteousness of God and the law of God being applied equally to all individuals because we are all guilty before a holy and just God.
And we all need the redemption that can only be found in Christ.
So some Christians will say, well, then it's our role to recognize how awful our society used to be and then do something to fix with how it is because someone I was related to did some awful things.
Why is that not?
Why shouldn't we do that?
Because all of us are related to people who did awful things, number one.
And because number two, you know, Ezekiel 18, I love to take people to Ezekiel 18.
And Ezekiel 18 makes it very clear that that is not how God deals with us, right?
God doesn't deal with us based on, you know, your parents did this, therefore you're okay with me.
Your parents did that.
Therefore, you're not okay with me.
That's not how God operates.
I don't have to face God based on the sins of my great, great, great grandparents.
I have to face God based on my own sin, the sin in my own heart.
And so this is just, it's a misapplication of the truth of scripture.
It's also a misapplication of history because people who say that, what they want to do is they want to say, well, didn't we do that from Japanese internment?
Yes, we did.
But that was restitution to people who were wronged, not the descendants of people who were wrong.
And that's what the Bible calls for.
Restitution to people who have been wronged, not to the descendants of people who have been wrong, and not by the descendants of the people who did the wrong.
I can see why the woesters don't like you.
You make way too much sense.
Well, we do what we can.
I'm going to read from you, page 131.
Fault lines where most earthquakes occur are cracks in the earth's surface where tectonic plates meet and slide past each other.
Usually, they are moving too slowly for us to notice.
Confronting Truth Claims Today 00:15:24
But when stress builds up, they suddenly slip, causing an earthquake.
Is our nation, our civilization, and the American church currently on a fault line?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And, you know, I was born and raised in Los Angeles, so I've experienced my share of earthquakes, which is kind of why this really resonated with me.
But I definitely see that.
And I see people standing on, you know, different sides of this fault as we wait for it to shift.
And I think this is one of those times when we've become aware of this fault line.
And we're all like thinking, okay, is this the big one?
And I think all of us would hope that it's not.
But it could be.
So the death of George Floyd, you attribute as one of the reasons why this has accelerated so much in the last year.
Was that a tremor, an aftershock, or the earthquake?
I think geologies.
I think that was an earthquake.
I really do.
And it's interesting because what that was for a lot of people was a smoking gun.
And there was a discussion and a debate about the extent to which police were targeting black people, if at all.
And there were debates about, you know, numbers and which numbers you're using and what research that you're using and what metric are you using, you know, in order to make this argument.
And there were a number of studies that came out and indicated that there was no evidence of this sort of racial disparity, you know, in police shootings and whatnot.
And then all of a sudden, the George Floyd case comes and there is this video evidence and people just kind of went, I told you, right?
Here it is.
Here's what I've been telling you.
And you know what was interesting to me, and I've said this to people, what was interesting to me with the Derek Chauvin trial.
I mean, they didn't throw the book at him.
Again, they threw the library at him, you know.
But what was interesting is what he wasn't charged with.
He wasn't charged with a hate crime because there was zero evidence that he did what he did because of race.
And because there was no evidence of that, he didn't even face that as his trial.
But when you talk to people about the George Floyd case, it is the smoking gun that proves the racist killing of black people by police.
Very sloppy oversimplification of an incredibly important and nuanced topic.
And so then all of a sudden, Vodi, I started to see churches have BLM murals and flags.
How did this happen?
How did we go from a church where I used to be lectured by these pastors?
I don't do politics.
And now all of a sudden I'm going to go march in a BLM Incorporated march.
I could say some pastors' names.
I might by the end of the segment, if I get my blood going.
I think we all know who they are.
They're the type of guys that do the rock concert TED Talk type church.
I'm talking about very tight skinny jeans.
I'm looking at you, Eric Metaxas.
So how did this happen?
How did the church all of a sudden just become so susceptible to this?
It's supposed to be the beacon of truth, the light of the world.
And then the church ends up flying these BLM flags.
Part of it was being taken up with the moment.
And the other part of it was, you know, forms of white guilt.
The last thing you want to do is be called a racist.
You don't even want to be called insensitive.
And so I've had conversations with a number of pastors who said things like, well, I didn't necessarily perceive it that way, but there were some of our black brothers and sisters who did perceive it that way.
And we wanted to be sensitive to that.
That's hugely problematic.
If somebody's believing something that's not true, you do them a disservice if you act like it is true.
And you're showing not respect for people, but a disrespect and disregard for people.
You know, you kind of patting them on the head, you know, like, oh, you sweet little thing, you believe that.
That's okay.
We'll go along with you, right?
Even though we know that's how you treat children, you know, it's not how you treat your brothers and sisters in Christ.
So I think there are a number of things that sort of came together and led to that moment.
I think it's also sort of a byproduct of some things that have been creeping in slowly for a long time in terms of the way we have embraced either knowingly or unknowingly some of these Marxist ideas.
So yeah, there were a number of things that sort of led to that moment.
So some Christians and pastors, especially youth pastors, will say, as they go to college, that we are systemically racist.
We have been racist for quite some time.
There is white privilege.
And it's so hard to even reverse that multi-years of teaching.
And then they come across the Woekester pastors and say, hey, in Hosea, it says justice is going to roll like a river.
The apostles used to share all their food and all their resources.
Jesus would want us to be neo-Marxist.
Don't you understand, Vodi, that if Jesus was here, he would basically be AOC.
Why is that wrong?
You had to pick that one, huh?
Yeah, it really is.
And it's just a naive reading of scripture, you know?
For example, when you see this death that occurs, where There is a lie told about property that was sold, right?
And when the lie is told about the property that is sold, the apostles don't come and say, you had an obligation to sell that property.
They come and say, hey, before you sold that, it was yours.
You didn't have to do that, right?
But the problem is that you came and you lied about what you did.
Right.
So I think it's a really naive reading of scripture when people look at things like that and say, well, here's what you find.
And, you know, they were practicing communism.
They were practicing Marxism.
They actually weren't.
There's much in the scriptures about the respect of private property.
It also falls apart.
They don't say the second part.
Oh, I forgot.
I'm playing the liberal.
And so, so, so, Vodi, but how a lot of white people have this belief in the overemphasis on their skin color.
How could I, as a white person, possibly know the struggles of black people?
It's now our opportunity to listen, to empathize, to be an anti-racist.
Why is Robin D'Angelo and Ibram X?
Kendi and Nicole Hannah Jones, what is so problematic about those three secular gospels coming into the church?
Yeah, a couple of things.
One, that, you know, all of those people that you named are coming from a perspective that is antithetical to biblical truth.
All of those people that you named are really doing applied critical race theory and applied intersectionality.
They're the popularized version of these poisonous ideologies.
All of those individuals that you named are operating from a premise that says white people, by virtue of their whiteness, are guilty.
Period, full stop into discussion.
And that non-white people, by virtue of their non-whiteness, are oppressed.
Period, full stop into discussion.
When from a biblical perspective, what we see is there is one race.
God made us from one man, Adam.
He says that in Acts.
And we are all part of that one race.
And if you want to be technical about it, you can have the race of the first Adam and the race of the last Adam.
But that's the most you get, right?
In terms of race.
There are multiple ethnicities, but there is but one race.
So from a biblical perspective, we have to repudiate any ideology that would then divide us all and then say that the essence of who we are can be determined by our melanin count, right?
Again, nothing can be further from the truth.
That's not the way we're taught to think in scripture.
I think you're getting on to what the actual debate is about.
What is true?
How do you know something that is true?
Is it the root of all of this?
Even deeper than Gramsci, deeper than Darrada and Foucault and Marcuse.
All underneath them is this idea that you, Vodhi, you can't actually know a straight line from a crooked one.
You talk about the need to engage in this idea of objective reality, of transcendent order.
That's really what we're debating here, isn't it?
And that's one of the other main premises of critical race theory, the idea that truth is not objective, right?
That knowledge is not objective.
That knowledge is a cultural construct, which goes back to Gramsci and that idea of hegemony.
And so because of that, and this is why Christianity is viewed as one of those hegemonic oppressive powers, right?
Because there's the truth claims that Christianity makes.
And so ultimately, the question becomes, how do we know truth?
How do we access truth?
And you said something earlier that is important because one of the other principles of critical race theory is that we know truth by elevating the voices of the oppressed, right?
That's how we find truth, by listening to those voices, to those narratives and those counter narratives.
This is why narrative and story becomes so important.
And this is why elevating certain voices becomes so important.
So you hear a lot about having a conversation about race.
But in critical race theory, the conversation goes like this.
You listen to me talk about my oppression that you can't possibly understand and shut up because you're an oppressor who can only be an oppressor.
And your only hope is listening to me.
So the conversation becomes one-sided.
That's not a conversation.
No.
Sounds like, I don't even want to say an interrogation.
It's the opposite of an interrogation.
It's completely one-sided.
It's a lecture.
It's a lecture.
That's the word I was looking for.
That's why you have the PhD.
So the book is Fault Lines by Bodhi Bakam.
Maybe you're riding in the car and you say, who is the super wise person?
No, it's true.
And you say, yes, I know.
Don't confuse it with the host.
Okay.
We'll be back tomorrow.
The point is that you got to go buy this book because this is happening in your church.
Your youth ministers are being propagandized by this on social media.
I saw so many pastors over the last year.
I could say some names.
We're going to be disciplined here at NRB, everybody, but you probably, anyway, that are engaging in this at a very dangerous level.
And I don't think they quite understand it, but this book will inform them in more ways than one.
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What do we do about this?
And you say we must take every thought captive.
We must confront the lie and hold to the truth.
We must listen with discernment and we must correct them.
What do you mean?
Yeah.
Well, in that section, what I do is I take Paul's words in 2 Corinthians chapter 10.
And he says that we have to take every thought captive to obey Christ.
And we do.
And what I want to say to people is none of us would argue that there's no racism.
None of us would argue that there's no oppression and no evil or any of this stuff.
But what we have to do is we have to think biblically and theologically about those issues.
One of the reasons we're falling prey to this stuff is that we don't have a well-developed theology around them.
The other thing that Paul talks about, the first half of that, is destroying arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God.
We have to identify these things and call them out.
And that's one of the things that people are really uncomfortable with.
We really don't like the idea of confrontation.
We really don't like the idea of saying to another person, you're wrong.
But we have to do that because these ideas are ideas that are raised up to oppose Christ.
You know, in Titus 1, 9, elders are called upon to have three qualities.
Hold firmly to the trustworthy word has taught so that we can, secondly, exhort in sound doctrine.
And then thirdly, refute those who contradict it.
And we do this because we love the gospel, because we do not want falsehood to go unchecked and unchallenged, because we want people to know Christ as he is and as he has revealed himself and not some faulty version of Christ that's created for itching ears by individuals who are trying to lead us astray.
Educate Yourself Against Woke Lies 00:02:58
So if someone listening right now has a church where the pastor has gone woke or they have a board that is trying to pass CRT or a school that's doing so, what do they do?
Yeah.
Well, educate yourself.
You know, number one, find out what this is.
And then secondly, when you educate yourself, engage in meaningful, informed conversation, discussion, and a necessary debate.
I'm convinced that a lot of people who are, you know, going down this road don't really understand what's happening or haven't really been confronted about this.
And then the other thing that I would say is don't be afraid to confront this.
This is something that needs to be confronted.
So don't just immediately run away, right?
Educate yourself, inform yourself, engage lovingly, respectfully, but also clearly and unapologetically.
And then it may be necessary at times for us to shake the dust off and to move in other directions.
You know, when this fault line comes, we don't want to be found on the wrong side of it.
And there is a there's a belief that this is overwhelming.
Can we win this fight?
We can't not win this fight.
Christ will protect his bride.
Christ will prevail.
The church will overcome.
Always, always has, always will.
In the end, Christ will bring that justice that we talked about.
In the end, Christ will see all of his enemies at his feet.
In the end, every sin will be dealt with with the righteousness of God.
And in the end, all will be made right.
We don't have to worry about that.
We have no choice but to act.
Amen.
And so you're not here in America for much longer, going back to Zambia.
Yeah.
A couple more days.
And you're doing this whole tour.
Again, it's Fault Lines by Vodi Bockham, for all of you listening on radio.
This is just a small taste of the incredible depth that you have gone to in this book.
It's not like it's third or fourth printing.
Is that right?
And it's just continuing.
And so my mission to make sure every single Christian hears about you and reads your book.
If they still hold to their woke ideology after reading it, then I got nothing but prayer for you.
So I just, I do believe in miracles and divine intervention.
I guess my attempts didn't work.
But I think that when people actually hear what you have to say, the theological backing of it, it's really beautiful.
It truly is.
So thank you for being a courageous voice.
They have no counter to you in any way whatsoever.
Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
Email us your questions freedom at charliekirk.com.
And again, please consider supporting us at charliekirk.com/slash support.
God bless you guys.
Keep you safe.
For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.
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