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Sept. 16, 2020 - The Charlie Kirk Show
53:04
How the Bible Built Western Civilization and Why It’s Worth Defending with Vishal Mangalwadi

Charlie is joined by one of the most insightful guests to appear on The Charlie Kirk Show yet, author of ‘The Book That Built Your World,’ Vishal Mangalwadi. The two discuss the foundational aspects of Western Civilization found in the...

Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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The Book That Made Your World 00:02:05
Thank you for listening to this podcast one production.
Now available on Apple Podcasts, Podcast One, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts.
Hey, everybody.
On this very special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, we have Vishal Mangalwadi, one of my favorite authors who wrote one of my favorite books.
It's such an important conversation, The Book That Made Your World.
You guys are going to learn so much here.
I had so much fun in this conversation.
In fact, it wasn't long enough.
Please email me your questions.
You want me to ask our guests at freedom at charliekirk.com, freedom at charliekirk.com.
Type in Charlie Kirk Show to your podcast provider, as always.
And if you guys want to support us, go to charliekirk.com/slash support, charliekirk.com/slash support.
Vishal Mangalwadi is here, everybody.
Buckle up.
Here we go.
Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
I want to thank Charlie.
He's an incredible guy.
His spirit, his love of this country.
He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.
Turning point USA.
We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
That's why we are here.
How the Bible created the soul of Western Civilization: The Book That Made Your World by Vishal Mangalwadi.
And I am just so moved because we are connected together through someone who listens to the Charlie Kirk show.
And Vishal, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.
Thank you very much, Charlie.
I heard you during RNC convention for the first time, and I was very impressed.
I had no idea that we will get connected so soon.
I have to thank you so much for saying that.
And I have been working through this book.
I'm not yet finished.
I'm actually reading it slower than any other book I have read because there are parts, and you can see just how much I've underlined and how much I annotate.
There's so much wisdom in this book.
So, Vishal, you start the book in a very interesting way.
Music as Spiritual Worship 00:10:21
It catches your attention where you make an argument about how music is something that is more than just a melody we hear in our ears.
It's actually something that is spiritual.
And music is also a reflection of the culture that we're living through.
You talk about Kurt Cobain, and you talk about how that kind of was the beginning in a lot of ways of this modern nihilistic period we're living through.
Can you just walk through with our audience that argument that you made in the book?
I think it's one of the best that I have seen articulated on kind of the place of music in a society and its proper role.
Thank you.
Sure.
There are many Muslim nations where singing is illegitimate.
Haram.
Even on public television, you cannot see a woman singing because this is haram.
And so America, USA, became a musical civilization because of Puritanism.
There's a whole research that has been published that I referred to.
But it was the music developed in Latin West, so Western Europe, because of St. Augustine's six volumes on music,
where, of course, the Old Testament, if you read the book of Psalms and encourages us to make music to the Lord with all kinds of instruments, because the biblical assumption is that the whole creation exists for the glory of God.
You have created everything for your glory.
Therefore the wind and the water and the wood and the skin and the metals can make music.
And this as human beings as created to be priests and kings, having our dominion, but serving our father, worshiping him, we use the whole of the creation to worship God.
That's the idea of the music.
But many cultures didn't accept that even within Christianity.
So Orthodox Church, if you go to in Russia or Ukraine, you will have, there might be very gifted musicians, but they will be performing German musicians, but music will be in the evenings.
There might be a piano and an organ, beautiful pipe organ in the church, but during the worship service, there will be no music.
You come back in the evening to listen to the music.
So while that has been true in some of even the Christian circles, it is very important in many non-Christian circles that music was looked down upon.
But because of Augustinian tradition in monasteries, the monks who were worshiping the Lord, they began to develop music.
And Luther, as he was educated in Augustinian monasteries and universities, when he pioneered the Protestant Reformation, he emphasized music.
At that time, there was no science subject in the schools or colleges of the university.
So music was something where you began to learn singing and music and then reading and writing and arithmetic, etc.
So music was very important part of Christian education because education was not something which prepared you for a job.
It was not a utilitarian thing, but it was something chief end of men is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.
And you glorify him through singing and praise and worship, among other things.
So that's how music developed.
So it was very important for Luther.
Because he believed that all human beings are supposed to be priests if they believe in God, priesthood of all believers, it meant everybody has to sing because 500 years ago, if you went to church, congregation didn't sing.
Those young boys who were going to be becoming monks, who were studying in the monastery, they would be professional choirs who are trained to sing.
But then Luther said, no, everyone is a priest.
Everyone must sing.
Therefore, singing must be in German or English or Hindi.
It shouldn't be in Latin, which is the language of the church.
So he began to compose German songs and bring the best music.
And out of that Lutheran Revolution, 100 years later, came Bach, which is the flowering of that Augustinian tradition.
And then, of course, you had great musicians in Europe.
And that tradition came into the USA.
So until the 1940s, 50s.
So even if you listen to people like Elvis Presley, etc., they're first singing gospel songs.
And then as technology develops and music develops, it gets into clubs and all sorts of places.
And then, of course, the mass production of gramophone and audio cassettes and DVDs, et cetera, and now digital transformation.
Music has become a mass movement, which is, of course, what exactly what God wants, the whole creation worshiping him.
But every good thing gets corrupted.
So Paul says that, that do not be drunk with wine, which leads to debauchery.
And so much of music has led to debauchery and corruption of morals and behavior.
But we ought to be using it to develop the finer culture.
So music was part of the fine culture.
And in fact, the comparison with Cobain is tragic because the first five books of Augustine on music, they are technical.
Any follower of Pythagoras or others could have written those technical treaties on music.
His sixth book is Biblical Philosophy of Music, where he relates music to the goal of human life to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
It gives meaning to life.
But because Kurt Kobain became a Buddhist and rejected the existence of God and then had to reject existence of self itself, so Buddhism is nihilism, death to self.
There is no meaning, no purpose to life.
And this singing, so the music becomes scream, anguish, emptiness, silence, death.
And Kurt Kobane, in his lyrics, he is shouting about these things of emptiness and meaninglessness and absurdity.
And that is, of course, hurting so much, so many young people who find that it is, music becomes a source of emptying your mind, like Hare Krishna, Hare Ram, where you're keeping on chanting some mantras endlessly until your mind goes blank.
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You say in the book so well here, in this sense, Cobain stands as the direct opposite of the life, thoughts, and work of Bach.
Whereas Bach's music celebrated life's meaning as the soul's eternal rest and the creator's love, Cobain became the symbol of loss of a center of meaning in the contemporary West.
I think that is just so well put.
In a following chapter, and you start with this idea of music, and I think it really captures the reader's attention because you're really not sure where you're going with it, and then you land it beautifully into this idea of the West.
And this is something I mentioned in my RNC speech that the president is the bodyguard of Western civilization.
And a lot of people don't quite understand what Western civilization is.
I'm so moved by this book and by your writings and by your speeches, because similar to Ravi Zacharias, you have an Eastern perspective on the West.
It's almost you're looking outward into the West and you're able to inform those of us that grew around this idea of private property and free enterprise and freedom of speech and assembly, how good we actually have it.
Defending the Precious Child 00:10:21
You have an incredible story here, Vishal, where you were early in your life trying to bring charitable help.
And I'm paraphrasing the story here.
And there was a family with a young daughter who was dying of malnutrition.
And you offered them help.
You offered to bring her to the hospital.
And eventually, through almost force of threat, you got her the help she needed.
But then the family didn't want that.
And eventually, I believe she passed away.
Can you recount this story?
Again, I'm just paraphrasing it, but you contrast that in the West, we have no comprehension of just looking at children as disposable objects.
Can you walk us through that?
Sure.
This little girl was 18 months old.
Her name was Sheila.
I was writing my first major book at that time, which is still a textbook, a study of Hindu gurus.
And my wife was typing.
I would handwrite.
We didn't have any laptops or anything.
I would handwrite.
And then we had a typewriter.
So my wife would edit and type.
And when there was not enough work for her, she would pick up the bicycle, go into the village.
And she began to visit every family.
We had come from the city.
And village in India means poverty.
So we were trying to understand what is the condition of every family.
And she was keeping record.
And what can we do to make a difference?
Because we had gone there to serve the poor.
And she asked one girl, about 11, 12, 13-year-old, 12-year-old, maybe Lalta, how many brothers and sisters you have?
And the girl said three, maybe four.
So Ruth got intrigued.
Do you have three or do you have four?
She said, well, three, the fourth is almost dead.
So Ruth said, can I come and see the fourth baby?
So she had to be taken.
These are mud houses.
So you can't have high doors.
You have very low roof because the monsoon rain washes away the mud.
So you got in.
There was only one room, one cot in the center of the cot, no sheets.
This girl was lying 18 months old.
Her thighs were as thick as my thumb.
And she couldn't speak.
Her whole head was covered with flies because pus was oozing out of everywhere.
So my wife started crying and the mother started smirking when she saw how moved my wife was with the site.
So what's wrong with her?
Oh, she doesn't eat anything.
Whatever we give her, she vomits.
Have you taken her to the doctor?
How can we go to the doctor?
It's so expensive.
Really, the government hospital is free.
But no, no, no, the mother said, I can't go to the city.
Well, ask your husband to go.
How can he go?
Who will look after the farm, etc.
She started making excuses, who will look after the animal.
So my wife was really moved by their poverty.
And she said, look, I will pay for a laborer so your husband can have a laborer look after the farm for one day and go to look after the baby.
Well, she said, when he comes, I will talk to my husband.
So my wife cycled back, told me to go and speak to the husband.
So as I started speaking to him, they had already made up their mind, they're not going.
Why not?
We don't have the money.
But my wife told you she'll give the money.
Oh, we don't want to get into debt.
But this is not a debt.
This is a gift.
No, but we don't have the time.
Well, she said, told you that she'll pay for a laborer who can look after the farm for Monday.
Then he got angry at me.
Why are you bothered?
This is our daughter.
And I didn't know how to answer that.
So I decided to use that as a stick against him, pretend to be angry.
Are you killing this child?
If you're killing this child, why don't you pick up a knife and stab the baby?
Why do you have to give this long starving her to death without treatment?
So I told the father, look, if you don't send this girl with my wife to the hospital tomorrow, I'll bring the police and say that you are deliberately killing this baby.
So there was an elderly man who advised the couple that, look, this guy is crazy.
He might actually bring the police.
And if the police took the daughter, you will have to pay for the treatment.
Right now, he's offering to pay, so you go.
That's how the daughter went.
Three weeks she was in the hospital.
As she began to recover, she was still being fed through her nose.
The doctor said that the bill is piling up.
You take the baby to your home.
I will come there twice a week and look after, give the prescription.
But what we are doing in the hospital, you can do at home.
So we did that.
She recovered beautifully.
The greatest joy was when she would smile at us.
But then mother came and started fighting with my wife that the village, my caste, our caste will excommunicate us because you are feeding, our daughter is feeding your, eating your food.
You are Christians, we are not.
So my wife said, of course, we want you to take your daughter and look after her and I'll pay you for the milk.
So my wife started giving money, but in few weeks, the girl was back to square one.
The whole process had to be repeated.
Ruth had to argue.
I had to go and fight.
Ruth had to take the daughter to the hospital.
She had to be put on intravenous.
She recovered, came back to her house, and then she recovered again.
And the mother came back to fight.
And Ruth said, well, please, yes, take your daughter home.
We'll give you clothes blanket.
But this time I'm not going to give you money for milk.
I'll give to the milkman.
But in three days, the kid was dead.
I believe that the parents wanted to kill her.
My wife didn't believe any parents could kill their child.
So it took three more deaths before my wife came to believe that, yes, infanticide was very common.
If you had argued, they would have said that, look, we didn't have any facilities for ultrasound.
If they had known this is a girl, we would have aborted her.
We have done nothing, which lots of Americans don't do, kill their own babies.
We had no facilities for ultrasound facilities for abortion here.
So most families kill their newborn daughters the moment they are born, within hours.
And it doesn't take too much to kill your daughter.
You just put her in the sun when the sun is too hot, or you put her out in the winter cold when it's very cold and don't cover her, the baby will be dead.
Don't feed anything, the baby will be dead.
So this was part of the culture.
We had come from the city.
We didn't know how common infanticide was.
But we were two different cultures.
We believe that every child is made in God's image.
Every life is precious and valuable.
Hinduism had taught them that death is nothing.
It is a soul passing from, like we change clothes, soul changing bodies.
So don't take death seriously.
This was the teaching of Mahabharata.
And of course, Buddhism had said that there is no soul.
So we took life seriously.
They didn't take, we took daughters seriously.
From their point of view, a girl had no future.
She would suffer for 10, 12 years.
We have to look after her.
Then we marry her and we have to give dowry.
And then her in-laws persecute, torture her to extract more dowry from the parents.
And then she comes home for delivery to her mother's home.
We have to bear all the expenses.
So a girl is a liability.
For us, a girl could change their family, bring the whole family out of poverty.
She can change the village.
She can change the state.
She could become the prime minister of India.
So is a girl a human being made in God's image who deserves our investment, love, service?
But right now, if you do not see human beings as precious made in God's image, endowed with inalienable right to life, the time is already here where children will say that old parents who are useless, who don't work, who don't contribute anything to society, they should be killed.
So euthanasia should be legal.
Why should we have to pay a lot of Medicare, Medi-claim, and invest a lot of time listening to old parents who don't do any good, but just ask a lot of questions and give us a lot of orders?
So are those parents who are old and unproductive, should they be loved and served and ministered to, or should they be killed?
If a baby is inconvenient and can be killed, why not old people who are useless, unproductive in terms of utilitarianism or pragmatism?
They don't contribute anything.
They're just a burden on society, on medical system, on the taxpayer, on the immediate family.
They should be killed.
So this is the culture of death, which you call pro-choice.
You choose to kill your children.
Why shouldn't children choose to kill you?
The Culture of Death 00:10:34
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Now, Vishal, you contrast this culture of death where you grew up in India with what the West was built on.
Now, mind you, there's a million abortions a year in our country.
So we're far from being able to say that we're perfect in this regard.
But the West has made significant civilizational progress.
I hesitate to say that word progress because I think it's way overused and misused in the capacity of recognizing human rights.
You talk in this book that the Bible was able to inspire the world that almost everyone listened to this podcast will be in the West, mostly in America, and how improbable it is of what we're living through.
You have another really interesting part in the book that, again, I just stop and I have to close the book and think about it because there's such incredibly deep ideas where you say you took exception with an old proverb that necessity is the engine of innovation, meaning that if you need something, you're going to find a way to innovate it.
I'm paraphrasing, invention or innovation.
And you said, no, look at the Taj Mahal and then look at the poverty around the Taj Mahal.
Just because you're able to create something doesn't mean you'll be able to actually be able to use the technology to improve your civilization.
Vishal, why is it that the West has been able to do all these sorts of things?
What is it about the Bible that has been able to create this civilization?
See, the Christian monks, Roman Catholic Orthodox monks, and the Buddhist monk had a same problem, identical problem.
They didn't have wives.
Who will haul their water from the river to their home?
Who will sit and grind the wheat and make bread?
Buddha solved the problem very easily that monks should not earn, work, or save.
They should go and beg.
But the New Testament says that whoever doesn't work shouldn't eat.
And that created a problem for Christian monasteries, young people who have gone to monastery to pray, to study, study scripture, study philosophy, etc.
Now there are 200 young men and they eat a lot and you have to grind a lot of grain and make a lot of bread.
Who is to do that?
There are no wives.
There are no slaves and servants.
So these young boys have to do that, but they're cultivating their mind.
So most of these monasteries in Europe were built near rivers.
They would dam the river, just a little river, let the water fall, run a turbine, which pumps the water up into storage, and then you pipe that water.
Earlier, when nobody was manufacturing pipe, they would take logs.
One end is thick, another is thin.
They drill a hole through it and put one log into the other.
And you have 24-hour running water.
Water is bringing itself to your village, to your monastery.
But because there is more water than you can consume, you let some of it go into the village.
Then every woman doesn't have to go morning and evening to haul water on her head.
So the cultures that were able to build pyramids and tal pyramids and tajmahals, they never built wheelbarrows because it was a woman's job to bring water.
She brings it on her head.
Now, this is what the Scholars who were studying the Bible, they objected to that something that can be done by a donkey or a horse or an ox.
Why does a human being have to do it?
This slave labor is dehumanizing.
If water can bring itself to your home, when you use mind, and these monks are cultivating their mind, in Buddhist monastery, you are emptying your mind.
That's the technique of meditation.
But in a Christian monastery, particularly those in the Latin part of Europe, Latin-speaking part, not the Greek-speaking part, the monks are studying and they are working, but they are cultivating their mind.
So the mind makes water come to your home on its own.
And then that water power through the turbine can run your grinding mill, water mill.
So wherever you go, you go to Cambridge, you see Mills Road, these waters are running the mill.
So now, not only the wheat for all the monasteries being grinded by the water mill, but also all the women can come grind their grain.
So why did this happen?
This happened because of the biblical doctrine of the fall.
God created human beings to rule on this earth.
Sin made them slaves.
Sitting and grinding grain is slavery.
Women have to do it.
They cannot say to the husband that, look, you are sitting and playing card games.
You go and get water from the well or river while I sit and read a magazine, good cow keeping.
If a woman says that, she'll be slapped, beaten.
So she has to do it.
She's a slave.
But the Bible made a distinction between work and toil.
God is a worker.
He works for six days.
We should be like him work for six days to establish our dominion over the earth.
But sin turns work into toil, slavery, mindless, repetitive labor for which you have no choice.
Gospel saves us from our sin and the consequences of sin.
Hell is the last consequence of sin.
Work becoming toil, that's the curse put on Adam, then now you will have to eat of the sweat of your brow.
You'll have to work hard.
Parrots and peacocks and cats don't have to work very hard to eat.
Human species, which is most rational, has to work, has to sweat.
Even if you're sitting in air-conditioned offices or tractors or trucks, you still, if you're not literally sweating, you get high blood pressure because of the boss above you and the colleague next to you.
You get high blood pressure and you suffer.
But salvation from sin includes salvation from the consequences of sin.
So toil becoming work, you enjoy working to establish your dominion, to glorify your God.
So this theology of sin and salvation and the dignity of human being.
So the idea that a human being should not have to do what water can do, sun can do, wind can do, what animals can do, a human being should not have to do.
So this technology that developed in the West, now technology was developing everywhere, but mostly for war, for torture, for pleasure of nobility, sports, but a technology that emancipates the weak, the women, the slaves, the children, that developed only in Christian West in order to restore the dignity of human being,
which is the purpose of Jesus coming into this world to save slaves, to make them sons of God.
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It's so well said.
I underlined this and you basically covered this so well.
The theological factor that resolved their tension and drove technology was that the Bible distinguished work from toil.
Losing Western Civilization's Soul 00:07:30
To work was to be like God, but toil was a curse on human sin.
Toil was mindless, repetitive, dehumanizing labor.
This distinction enabled Christian monks to realize that human beings should not have to do what wind, water, or horses can do.
People must do what other species and natural forces cannot do.
Use creative reason to liberate human beings from the curse of toil.
So you just summed it up so well there.
So I have a question, though.
And you go through them.
You go through the fore and aft rig.
You go through the wheel, plow, and the horse.
You go through the watermill, the windmill, and the crank.
You go through the wheelbarrow and the flywheel.
And I underline this.
I said, yes, the purpose of this invention was to use human creativity for the glory of God and for the service of the weak, whereas other invention was never under that kind of moral paradigm.
So America, the country that we live in right now, is an extension of the West.
And in some ways, the climax of Western values.
And now we're starting to see that be put into very, very troubling times.
Can you talk about how if you lose the soul of Western civilization, which is a moral worldview, the Bible, and you do nothing but engage in humanistic indulgences, where does that lead a civilization is what I'm asking, Vishal, especially for young people.
Well, it's very simple.
The Declaration of Independence asserted the foundation of America that all men are created equal.
All are endowed by their Creator with inalienable right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
Now, is it self-evident to a high school graduate in America that all men are created, let alone created equal?
No.
That's a great point.
All men have evolved.
So did evolution make everybody equal?
No.
Evolution is a theory to explain inequality.
Inequality is self-evident.
So the fundamental mistake that was made on 4th of July 1776 was changing the original language of the Declaration of Independence.
Thomas Jefferson wrote that we hold these truths to be sacred, derived from sacred scriptures, that all men are created equal.
Because it was never self-evident to anybody that slaves and slave owners are equal.
The first white man who started preaching to the blacks in America was George Whitfield in this first great awakening.
Many white Christians got very angry at him.
What are you doing?
Are you trying to make the black slaves sit next to us in the church on the same pew?
And do you want us to drink the Holy Communion from the same cup as our slaves?
No, Whitfield could have backed down because he was the itinerant preacher who traveled to all the 13 colonies.
He crossed the Atlantic 13 times.
He needed money.
Blacks had no money to give him.
White had the money.
And the white Christians were getting angry at him for preaching to the blacks and making them children of God.
Instead of backing down, he began writing every, beginning in 1740, that is 35 years before the Revolutionary War, he began writing regularly the biblical idea that all men are made in God's image, not in monkeys' image.
All have come from the same parents.
It was not that apes were mating with different species, therefore different races evolved.
All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
All are loved by God equally.
Everyone's value is determined by the blood of Jesus Christ.
God so loved the world that he gave his son, etc.
Anyone can become a child of God through repentance and faith, white or black.
So this, George Whitfield's champion or amplifier was Benjamin Franklin.
But later, Whitfield died in 1770.
In 76, when they are writing the Declaration, Thomas Paine's influence, the rationalist deist influence, that yes, of course everyone is evolved equal.
Everyone is created equal, but this is common sense.
This doesn't come from the Bible.
Everyone should have fundamental right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.
This is common sense.
So there is no such thing as common sense.
Common sense is a cultural creation, and that culture in America was created by the teaching of the Bible.
But Benjamin Franklin submitted to Thomas Paine, etc., and put pressure on Jefferson to change the language, which is what has created today's problem.
Because what happened in the Declaration was that the foundation of America at a conscious level, every idea was biblical, but the Bible was not acknowledged as a source.
Human common sense, self-evident reason, was made the foundation.
But of course, that made the problem that human reason cannot prove Trinity.
How can Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, be one God?
So, once theologians started defending rationalism, which in America was called common sense, it became very difficult for university professors to say we believe in Trinity.
They were good Christians, good people, competent people.
But Harvard was won by Unitarians in 1805.
For many years, the Trinitarians tried to fight the political battle in Harvard University to win back the board.
But instead of winning Harvard, they kept losing all the Ivy League colleges, Princeton, Yale, etc.
The Christian colleges that Trinitarian Christianity had built in America were lost, lost to rationalism.
But without revelation, reason cannot defend itself.
Why does truth have to be logical?
What is logic?
Where does it come from?
What is reason?
Why should I believe your reasoning if my brain chemistry and my personal interest leads me to an opposite conclusion?
So reason has destroyed itself.
And now we have from age of reason to age of insanity, age of nonsense, which is destroying that it's not just that the idea of human equality is a peculiarly Bible's idea, but the right to life, right to property.
Education Revolution for America 00:12:09
Oh, you have a shop, you are a capitalist, I should have a right to take money back because anybody who has made money, so there is an ethic of loot which is being taught in American universities now in the name of social justice, because it is automatically assumed that anybody who has made money through selling retail or wholesale or investment stock market or manufacturing or distribution,
capitalists are filthy.
They have taken our money.
So we should have the right to take it back.
And that's what socialism is.
The socialist Bernie Sanders would say to the looters: No, you don't loot.
You give the money to us.
You give your vote to us.
We will form the government.
We will tax these capitalists.
And we will make sure that you get a monthly check so you can sit in front of television and smoke weed and drink beer and watch good programs.
And you don't have to work.
We will pay a check to everybody.
We'll take care of free education.
We'll be responsible for your education, for your health, et cetera, et cetera.
So what the people are doing on the streets, the ethic of loot, that's what American politicians who are products of this university system, which has given up the Bible.
The whole face that if you do not work, you do not eat.
No, no, no, I'm starving.
I must loot.
So, yes, the whole system that created a great nation, and America was a great nation, and that's why I support President Trump, because it needs to be made great again.
This morning we had a discussion, global discussion on United Nations.
And I presented my case that United Nations is one of the greatest gifts that America has given to the world.
Now, Americans, many Americans and my good friends, are angry at the United Nations, but they are angry at the swamp in Washington, D.C. also, and they are angry at the press also.
But so yes, there's a lot of corruption, a lot of reform necessary.
But America was a great culture, but it was built on the Bible, right to property.
You work hard because you save what you create.
You own what you create, what you inherit, what you pass on to your next generation.
That right, inalienable right to property.
You take that away.
Nobody has any motivation to work.
It is so well said, Vishal.
And we're living through, I mean, if I'm not mistaken, this book is about 10 years old.
Is that right?
That I'm, yeah, it's so clairvoyant.
I feel like I'm reading what we're living through right now because I think it's actually more applicable because in some ways you were looking at the leading indicators of where this was going.
I actually, please go ahead.
We're going to have you back on to talk about that one.
So just in closing here, Vishal, can you just let us know where, or just your opinion of where the civilization is headed if it continues to lose its soul, the revelation part and that blend of reason and revelation are both very important.
And I tell people all the time that we as Christians should not be afraid of scientific inquiry or discovery.
I believe the more that we look into the natural world, the more it confirms that this was a created world, not a accidental world, whether it be mapping the human genome or understanding the sophistication of the composition of our atmosphere or how life is created.
The more scientific inquiry we do, the more it confirms the improbability of the creation of everything around us.
And I think that it was either Aquinas or Augustine that encouraged scientific discovery and not tried to suppress.
I might be misremembering one of the early church fathers.
However, I think it's a very important thing, though, that if you go nothing but reason, nothing but skepticism, what does that look like, Vishal?
What kind of country is that?
Where does the civilization head?
Because we're just beginning to see the start of that.
Well, on the 31st of October, which is the Reformation Day, we are launching the third education revolution.
Because what has disintegrated is the second education revolution that began 500 years ago this year in 1520, exactly 500 years ago, Martin Luther wrote an open letter to Christian nobility in Germany calling on the basis of priesthood and kingship of all believers that every child should be educated.
But that ownership of that education which was with the church passed on to the state and teachers' unions, and all of that has become mess.
So what you're seeing on the streets, what you're seeing in the political system is a mess, which the corruption of that second education revolution that Luther started has ended.
So it's a time for a third revolution.
America's future is great.
America will become a great nation again because this third revolution will take the education from the state, give it to the church.
Students will enroll in the university, will go to the local church to attend classes.
Professors will also go to the church online.
So every student will be able to study under the best professor, best teacher.
And a church will have academic pastor who's like a homeschooling mom or dad that mentors face to face.
So this is a hybrid education where the academic pastor who is a preacher and a teacher of truth to Gentiles, as Paul describes himself.
So taking education back from the state, giving it to the church in the context of education becoming pursuit of veritas and virtue, truth and character, along with research, development of skills, gathering of information, etc.
So American church has the capacity to disciple America.
American church did not have the theology to disciple a nation for the last, since the Second World War.
A number of factors had come together that American church lost the theology of discipling the nation.
It began to think that to convert means that someone goes forward in an altar call and prays a sinner prayer, he's converted.
This was the same mistake which Charlemagne was making in the 9th century.
He thought that to convert means to baptize.
So he would force pagans to be baptized until philosopher, English philosopher Al Quinn explained to him that no, to convert means to educate.
It means law of God, truth of God, written in your heart and mind by the Spirit of God.
So that process of discipling a whole nation, which the Protestant movement began and then the counter-reformation that the Jesuits adopted, that has to be revived again.
And the church has to take the ownership of education.
It will mean how do you finance the education of the poor, etc.
So I have the whole 40 or 50 of us are developing this global education revolution, a kingdom education revolution, which will be formally launched on the 31st in Pennsylvania.
And we believe that in the next generation, America will be reformed because this destructive nonsense, America has become the age of nonsense today because of the American universities.
And restoring sanity, the spirit of wisdom, understanding, knowledge to America is possible.
American church has the capacity.
And I am very confident that there will be a new great awakening.
I love that.
Well, God bless you, Vishal.
I can't wait to have you back on the program for your other book.
Again, it is the book that made your world.
It goes piece by piece of everything that we take for granted from science to reason.
You have a whole chapter on heroism, technology, humanity.
It's so well written.
And that's just one of your books.
I mean, you have a whole roster of books that is just.
Yeah, please name a couple of the titles.
Well, Truth and Transformation was published in 2009.
That's when this education revolution was first proposed.
But the Indonesians took it.
American Church did not take the proposal how to reform America.
But in 2014, we began Virtuous Campus in Minnesota to attempt it.
But the church has been very reluctant.
But COVID-19 has changed everything.
Now, everyone is very open to consider e-learning, etc.
So the time has come for a new reformation, new awakening.
Reformation is a theological questioning of some of the assumptions.
So one of the problems which you're fighting, and hopefully you will win, is the mindset which so much of the American church had that his kingdom is not of this world.
Jesus should take us to heaven.
He can rule there.
Let Antichrist rule this earth.
Did he bring his kingdom to this world?
Should his will be done here on this earth?
This is a theological problem that American church has.
Then, no, no, no.
When the church prays, Your kingdom come, your will be done, what they mean is that let Antichrist's kingdom come, let his will be done in America.
And therefore, the Antichrist is happily doing his will.
But we've got to go back to the original teaching of Christ that no, no, the kingdom of heaven has come and it comes as a seed that is planted in the hearts and minds of people.
And that's where every child is a soil where the kingdom of heaven has to be planted so that he begins to do God's will and he makes sure that his, the world where he has establishing his dominion, that's where Christ's will is being done.
That's incredibly well said.
Well, Vishal, thank you so much for taking the time with us today and can't wait to have you back on soon.
So God bless you.
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
You bet.
All right.
Talk to you soon, Vishal.
Thank you so much.
Bye-bye.
What a great conversation that was with Vishal.
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