Jake Coco | How To Make Money In The Music Business, Christianity, & Being Conservative | OAP #28
Chase Geiser is joined by Jake Coco.
Jake Coco: Producer/Songwriter/Wizard Slayer | Find what you love & let it kill you | Big Flag of United States Energy | Ring: @lilybcoco | Troubadour @ the #HATEOCRACY
EPISODE LINKS:
Chase's Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/realchasegeiser
Jake's Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/jakecoco
Jake's Links: keepyoursoul.co
Jake's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/jakecoco/featured
PODCAST LINKS:
Anchor: https://anchor.fm/oneamerican
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/IAmOneAmerican
I mean, you can say bad words if you want, but not the really bad ones.
Cool.
Let me uh let me censor myself real quick.
Yeah, right.
Gotta get in that mindset.
What's up with you, dude?
I got to listen to some of your music uh on Spotify.
It took some time.
Uh nice.
And I really enjoyed it.
I didn't listen as extensively as I would have liked to, but it's very impressive stuff.
I did this.
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
I was checking out some of your uh your recent podcasts too.
So it's good.
Oh, cool.
Which one's you uh look at?
I was listening to Tim Young before this, and he he got to the Oregon Trail, which is unfortunate because that's pretty much all I have to talk about.
So um probably covered that at this point.
Yeah, well, I tell you what, man, that game is one of the best of all time, and it's one of the few things where every iteration of that game since the original has been worse.
Yeah, that's amazing.
Maybe it was the second one that was the best.
The one that was in color was my favorite, but didn't they make like an MS DOS one that was just like black and green or black and white.
Yeah, and most recent experience with it was the app they tried to launch that was just advent uh I mean essentially just trying to sell in-app purchases, which is all apps do anymore anyway.
But I know I downloaded it and I was so I like number bunchers too.
He he uh he threw out some good ones.
And I remember uh The Castle of Dr. Brain, I think was another one that I liked.
There was some there were some great games back in those systems, the Apple IIe and stuff, like those were great games.
Yeah, you know, I kind of have the same feeling about TV in that um like if you watch the original Star Trek series, the they didn't have a lot of special effects tools and technology at their disposal, so they had to rely on the writing in order to make the show good, right?
And um, you know, now we have like a situation where Disney can make a Star Wars movie that's actually absolutely has terrible writing, but the production is so good that it's still entertaining, so it's like the trances you and you get kind of lost in it, you're like, Oh, it's fine, it's good.
But those old games, like they they didn't have a lot like of muscle technologically to make a great game.
So they had to they had to be really clever about you know what's gonna be fun on this, you know.
Yeah, I remember the Lemmings game too.
I was there's there's been a bunch, like over it's funny over the years as you kind of like you know, you'll have a little memory and you go back and try to look for one of them and like I've looked for uh obviously Oregon Trail.
I've looked for Lemmings game.
I looked for uh there's this one called Castle Siege and Conquest.
I used to put my grandpa back in the day, like he was an old Mac guy.
Just like it was like risk, but with like you know the worst graphics ever.
But uh, you know, fun turn-based uh strategy stuff.
But it's crazy how um and I always go back to like Super Nintendo too, like that's my favorite system.
And I'm sure obviously like such a hipster.
Yeah, just based on my life and you know how old I am and stuff, like it probably just hit at the right time, but and all the newer games, like it kind of just seems like the same game with just different graphics all over the place and like the games back in uh Sega and Nintendo stuff like that, always just had more just different cool things.
The Lion King game, Aladdin, all those games and stuff, like there's some great games back then.
I forgot, I man, I forgot about those.
I played on Sega Genesis, I played the Lion King and the Aladdin.
The game is hard.
Both those games were hard.
Yeah, they were really hard, but I you remember you could go to Blockbuster and they didn't just rent movies, you could rent games.
Yeah, yeah.
We uh we actually just tried to watch the last blockbuster documentary, uh the other wife and I. But uh we didn't something came up with the baby, so we didn't get through it, but oh yeah, you got a baby?
Yeah, we uh seven months old.
Cool, yeah.
Our baby was born in January.
Nice.
Yeah, we're deciding.
Is it your first one?
Yes.
Congratulations.
Yeah, first one.
As far as I know.
That's awesome.
Are you loving it?
Yeah, did you have a boy or a girl?
Or you wait until it's 13 before you decide.
We let it decide actually at the hospital.
So we just put out all 57 genders on like a Ouija board, and then the baby kind of crawled towards one.
Yeah, we that makes sense.
Consented to that, so it's fun.
Ouija board.
That's a way to do it, man.
One of the courses in uh Paisley is her name.
Uh beautiful.
Like Brad Paisley.
Uh yeah, actually.
I went to the same college as Brad Paisley.
Did you?
Nice.
That's awesome.
What college?
Nashville.
Belmont University in Nashville.
Oh, cool.
That's a great music program.
Yeah, I did audio engineering there, so that was part of the reason why I appreciated your music.
That's awesome.
Nice.
I uh I've worked out of Ocean Way before and uh RCA, a bunch of studios over there, and they all hire Belmont.
Like it's just like a funnel program, right?
Where you guys are.
I was a staff engineer.
Yeah, RCA.
Yeah, and at um uh Oceanway.
So I've done the shift.
Yeah, those are beautiful spot.
I I was way over my head of being allowed to I got to I was too.
I got to go direct some stuff for some uh country artists who um long story short, I was doing well on YouTube and um a lot of the the country scene wasn't um kind of adapting yet.
This was maybe 2014.
And so they had some of us kind of come out and do some videos Just kind of showing like the labels, like how to do YouTube, because they were kind of coming at it, you know, with like big budgets and like trying to like make a YouTube thing as opposed to the city.
They're thinking on TV.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
I was like, no, I just go in a room and you know, sing a song and get some angles.
And but uh it was so cool to be able to work in those studios with like all the old fairchilds and just all this gear that I own the plug-in versions of.
I know, I know.
The plugins are good though.
Um I was actually still at school in 2014.
Um can you share the artists that you were there with?
Yeah, well, the the session was um was listed as a YouTube pop-up session.
Um I did two of them, they were like three or four days each, and we'd have like 15 artists per session.
Uh the last one I did was John Party, Lucy Silva.
Um what's that band that I love?
Forgetting the name.
Um John Party and Lucy were the two that I remember the most right now.
Yeah.
Um I didn't mean to put you on the spot.
Everyone else.
The other ones are probably like, damn, but he doesn't remember us.
Yeah.
So do you live in Tennessee?
I do.
We recently uh my wife and I moved here last March, right when the uh everything kind of started going crazy.
Um we were forced to get out of California.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah, we moved out of California in August too.
We moved to Austin.
So are you in Nashville?
Uh we're just about 35 minutes uh north of Nashville.
So we moved to Nashville first and then uh kind of settled and we're up near Clarksville now.
Yeah, very cool.
Very cool.
Well, I'll have to after the show, I'll have to connect you to some uh friends, uh friends and family that I've got in the area.
Um I w what are your uh trying, you know.
I I didn't have as much of a chance to and it's gonna cut me off for a second.
Uh you'll still be able to hear me, but I'll I'm still here.
Uh I'm just gonna reset my mic, my camera.
But um uh what are you I didn't have as much of a chance to look into you as I would like.
What are your sort of like goals?
What are you doing for like in terms of your career?
Um are you focusing on the music thing or is that a hobby?
Like, what's the deal?
Because um, depending on your answer, I might be able to connect you with some cool people in the in the city.
Yeah, I've been doing music um as my career since I was uh maybe 21, 20, maybe 15, 16 years now.
Um I when I first moved to California, I got signed to a label that was like uh the guys in jail now as a it was a Ponzi scheme.
I'm sorry, man.
Uh it's all good.
Sounds like you're probably a victim.
Yeah, I was I was in a unique position because the uh as an artist that was with the company, we were kind of used as like the the smoke and mirrors, if you will.
Um everything seemed great on the surface, and then you know, find out years later that it was like uh just kind of a money laundering thing for him.
But um still good experience.
I got to like make some music and get into some studios that I never could have afforded to be into and stuff like that.
So um did some records that way, and then once that ended, I uh took some time off and started my own record label.
Um just an indie label.
Uh we're called Keep Your Soul Records, and uh got kind of a big catalog built with some of the early stage YouTubers.
Um so I just kind of saw that there was like a I wish um a lot of the uh at that time on YouTube, it was just a lot of non-monetized content, a lot of people uh you know, sitting with an acoustic guitar kind of singing, but they'd have like millions and millions of views.
Uh so I just partnered with the studio and uh started reaching out and kind of recording songs professionally and then releasing them for these artists that already had the fan base and then kind of helped them monetize.
Um so that was how I spent like maybe 20 2011 through 2016, 17.
Um, which I still uh I still do a lot of cover songs and like do my YouTube channel and then met my wife and we uh got married.
I took some time off to just kind of settle into that and uh spend some time together.
And we we met and got married very fast.
So um like within like two months, honestly.
So wow passionate time together.
Yeah, it was interesting.
We met through uh a mutual best friend.
Um passed away, one of my clients actually.
I'm sorry, yeah.
Um it's all good.
We uh you know, we found light through it and found each other and uh you know, miss them every day.
But um just the process of elopement and stuff, everything was so you know, fast and everything that we just wanted to take some time off and then uh now we have the baby, so um just been enjoying this new role as husband, dad, and yeah, trying to see where music kind of plays in with that.
Um, but I do uh a stream three nights a week where I just uh I have a studio from home.
You can't see it because it's all over there, but uh I do uh like a three nights a week uh stream I called the Jake Box where I just do cover songs and original songs and stuff like that and just chat about what's going on in the world, kind of like keep it a little lighter than uh my tweets, which I'm a little aggressively political on Twitter.
But uh for the music, I just like to do, you know, keep it a little more lighthearted.
Yeah, I definitely appreciate that.
I miss the world that used to exist where politics wasn't integrated into everything.
It's crazy where it takes over.
My personal political journey, I was a bleeding-heart lefty up until 2017 when everything flipped for me.
Um I mean, to the point of like I would do the the long Facebook post and like you don't understand, and Hillary's the queen, and it's gotta be like just terrible, you know, looking back and cringe stuff.
But um, you know, it was it was honest in the moment.
Um and in when I had those beliefs, it really wasn't uh something that I talked about like or was forced to talk about frequently.
Um it just didn't really come up because everyone just kind of assumes that artists think that way.
But now that I'm outspoken, uh, you know, with a different, you know, more libertarian and conservative uh viewpoint, it's crazy how it kind of you have to talk about it to become because everyone it's such an alienating position where everyone kind of on the mainstream side of entertainment and you know music and acting and all that stuff,
like there's so few people who are outspoken as conservatives that you almost become like a like a meme, like everyone has to talk to you about it becomes like your personality for me.
Like I yeah, I'm care more about music, like that's what I've always wanted to do.
But yeah, you know, but I love America and I think you know, American values are great.
And uh, you know, my wife is an immigrant, she she came here when she was 12 from Siberia, so she obviously has seen the you know the negative impact of non-American values and communism and socialism and all those things.
So um I only started speaking up about stuff because I was passionate about you know her the stories that I'd heard from her, and then after uh eloping, I read um you know some Solznitzen and the Gulag archipelago and kind of learned about that stuff, but um it's it was never something that I planned on you know speaking about or even learning about to that matter.
You know, I I've always been just kind of like a a musician.
And then as I started speaking about politics and stuff like that, it it kind of consumes you in a certain way where it or at least your online identity where you become like a conservative person, and then that's just what you're labeled as, and you can only talk to other conservative people and you're looked down on by you know all sorts of different folks.
It's silly.
The scary thing to me, you know, um I've heard I've had a couple people on the podcast that have switched from left to right.
Um the scary thing to me about our political sort of echo chambers is I often think that I often wonder if our politics are sort of like flat earthers.
Uh-huh.
In in that I I don't know if you've ever met a serious flat earther before.
I have to do it.
But I I I have.
Okay.
And these people have gone down rabbit holes and done a tremendous amount of research.
I mean, they're the most well-researched people you'll meet.
Right.
Yeah.
And um obviously I'm not a flat earther.
Okay.
So just to get that in there, but um Is this your pitch?
You're pitching me right now.
I can tell you.
No, no, my my what I'm the angle I'm trying to get at is that a flat earther can tell you can make can art can ha a flat earther can tell you more reasons why the earth is flat than you can tell a flat earther why the earth is round.
Because they've done they've, you know, they've gone through every single contradiction or every single um uh counterpoint already.
Like they have like this sort of propaganda.
I don't use the term propaganda, but they have like the whole cheat sheet rap sheet of here's what they're gonna say.
And this is this is the response.
Yeah, so I'm worried often just for myself.
Um, you know, and I and I I consider this to be a problem in the left, but I don't want to be a hypocrite because it could be it could be me doing it too.
Is I I worry that I am the a political flat earther and that I have convinced myself of something that isn't true because of the rabbit hole I've gone down.
You know, self-awareness level.
Yeah, how do you check yourself?
I it's it's uh I don't know how to check yourself, first of all.
I was gonna tell you my my experience with my first flat earther because it's kind of a funny story, but I was yeah, yeah, tell me, yeah, tell me we can we can pass back to it.
A bar somewhere, just you know, doing bar things, drinking, whatever, hanging out with my friends, and uh this guy was just standing there like in the smoking area or whatever, and he just comes up, he's like, Can I just tell you about something?
I was like, Yeah, sure.
What's up, man?
And he's just like, and he started and he gave me the whole the whole nine yards, If you will about about the flat earth and and all the things and uh and it was a compelling argument.
I I'm not smart enough to care even and we're drinking, like I was just like mind blown that this guy A was compelled to come talk to me and then B that this was what his his speech was and then I so I listened to him and I didn't argue back.
I don't, you know, whatever.
Think what you think.
And then he got to the end, and I'll never forget how um appreciative he was that I didn't belittle him.
And he spoke about that.
He was like, he was like, Thank you so much for listening.
Like people just get so mad at me all the time.
And I was like, I I don't care really what shape the earth is.
Like it's uh you know, I'm well and smart people believe stupid things all the time.
So just because somebody that has a stupid idea that they want to tell you about, it doesn't mean that they're a moron.
Exactly.
You can learn something new from that's one of my favorite um I forget who uh to attribute the quote to, but you know, you can learn something from everybody and it's such an important life lesson and thing to kind of embrace, you know, just because somebody somebody might only know one thing and everything else might be wrong, but uh but you should still give them the grace and the time to kind of get through whatever maybe you disagree with because you might get something good out of it.
You know, there's always something you can learn.
You can always learn a new perspective or better yourself or whatever.
But but yeah, the appreciation that he had for me just not being mean to him and and it he didn't convince me of flat earth by any means, but I again like I just it isn't something that I really care too much about.
Like I I don't plan on going to space.
I'm I'm gonna stay on this planet most likely my whole life.
Like whether or not it's a flat earth isn't really gonna change, you know, what I need to do to make my next record or whatever.
Um but it was just super interesting to hear yeah, how well rehearsed and how um and how smart it sounded from him, you know, like he had definitely been through these arguments so many times and was like, Man, you really are committed to what's in my opinion probably wrong.
Like the man, you really know your your stuff.
Like that's pretty impressive.
But well, I I think it I think if I I like to think that if you keep digging, you can you can eventually dig yourself out of that.
I don't know like what your tran how was your transition from being a leftist to a uh kind of a right, a conservative minded person.
Super interesting.
Um and for me, like it I lost a lot of friends, which I uh again, like I I never You didn't lose any real friends, dude.
I that's what you kind of learn and and and I'm grateful because I'm now in a position where I have you know my you know recent text messages are all people that I want to talk to as opposed to you know, I also quit drinking um a couple years ago and uh it just kind of problem or did you just decide to quit?
I probab I had a problem, but I didn't acknowledge that.
I just honestly didn't feel good one day after it was super strange.
I was in Vegas with my wife, my mom, and um my mom lived there at the time, my wife and I were visiting what a hell of a place to quit drinking.
Yeah, and uh it was the week after my birthday, and I went to my favorite sushi restaurant out there and uh and met with my mom and and my aunt was there with us and I just felt horrible.
Like we had been partying the night before, and uh I didn't feel good and to the point where I had to like go to the bathroom and excuse myself.
And I was sitting there and I was like, what am I doing?
Like I I'm missing time with all my I'm at my favorite restaurant with my favorite people and I'm in the bathroom.
Why?
Like because I made choices yesterday, and so I was like, Oh, let me just quit drinking for a week.
So I did that and then felt so good after that.
And then I was like, Well, maybe do a year, and then now it's been like two and a half years, and um I I honestly forget about it.
So it's weird because I know a lot of folks that go through kind of like the program stuff.
Um, there's like the step of I have a problem, and I by all means I was drinking way too much and partying, so I did have a problem, but I I didn't go that kind of traditional route of acknowledging that or anything.
It just was like a hey, I feel like crap, and I I'm not being uh emotionally responsible to the people that love me and that I love so would you consider yourself an alcoholic, or would you think that you caught you nipped it in the bud I don't think I'm uh intelligent enough to or you know, well learned enough on the specifics.
And I don't mean to ask you like a super specific like personal question.
I'm just you know curious.
And I thought about it uh a lot of times.
I just I know that their whole the whole thing in the program is always you don't want to like step one is admitting you have a problem, and I don't want to be that guy that's like I didn't have a problem about you didn't do the program though.
Exactly, yeah.
So for for me, um I think the problem for me was uh and the way I kind of worded is I was really good at drinking.
Um and I think that's a bigger problem sometimes than being bad at drinking.
Like I think there's guys that uh get really drunk and you know they get fighty and they get you know certain ways, and I'm the opposite.
I get super drunk and I'm like the life of the party and uh everything's great and I'm up on stage and you know everyone's doing shots and it's a I I can get a lead in that and you're in the music business too, so it's just so integrated in the culture.
Yeah, I was doing I mean you're from Nashville or you've you've spent time here so you understand the honky tonk world.
I was doing that out in San Diego.
Um there's a tin roof out in San Diego that had opened up, and uh I was at the best there.
Finger chicken fingers, the the Buffalo chicken finger tenders.
So good, so good.
Um But I was doing uh five nights a week, four nights a week, uh three hour to four hour long shows there.
So you're drinking four nights a week.
Yeah, I mean we were doing night by the end, uh, did like a three year residency, and by the end we were doing, I mean, twelve to fifteen shots plus the beers we were drinking through the show, and then whatever we drank before the show and whatever after, and it was all just you know, people are bringing you drinks, the whole it's that Nashville vibe of just everyone bringing you drinks, and that's just kind of what the night is, and you don't think about it, and uh and to go back to what I was saying, like without that negative side of it for me, like I wasn't like I said a fighty person or uh I wouldn't get an argument or anything like that.
Um without that happening, I think it's challenging to see that you have a problem or whatever.
Um but I think that it is a a unique or a separate type of problem to be to not have a problem, if that makes sense, to not be the fighty person because then you're an enabler, and I think that was more my issue.
Yeah, I um I quit drinking in 2015.
Okay.
Um, but not because I was an alcoholic or had a problem, but I just sort of declared in it once when I was drunk that I wasn't gonna have another drink until I was a millionaire.
Nice.
And I haven't.
Are you still true to that?
Yeah, I'm not gonna I mean I'm not gonna drink it's I you know I don't know if my net worth is a million dollars.
It there's arguments, probably not.
Um but I do have a small business, you know, and you hit a million, will you have a drink?
Is that the uh I don't know yet.
You know, I always I always used to say yeah, right?
Yeah, I always used to say, yeah, but the thing that I've struggled with as being someone who doesn't drink is everybody automatically assumes I'm an alcoholic, and that bothers me.
It's like, no, I don't have I never had a problem.
Like I just kind of how I do too.
And then but then I don't want to be that guy that's like, no, listen, I don't have a problem, because then you're that guy.
It's you know, it's it's this interesting uh social scenario we put in, and it I don't think it makes people purposefully uncomfortable, but they just don't know what to like when you go to like a function, they're like avocado, or what do you what do you want?
And you're like, I just I'm just here.
Like I pretend I'm the same, you know, but I'm sure I'm also you know, a different version of myself than a lot of my drinking friends are used to, and that's you know, it's fair for them to try to get used to the new version and stuff.
Plus now I'm such a homebody.
That's one of the reasons uh I used to kind of drink and party so much, and um was because I'm so I have Asperger's so social situations for me um aren't bad.
I it's just interesting, it's unique for me to navigate them.
Um they don't come naturally.
And so I've kind of I do a lot of scripting and stuff like that where I I put together um I just I'm like a different version of myself, I guess, when I'm out.
And it was easier for me to get to that version of myself through drinking.
Um but I'm over the years now I've learned kind of ways to get to those, you know, my more social uh version of myself without you uncomfortable to do things like this podcast.
Uh no, not honestly.
I I've always um kind of been gravitated towards uh or gravitated towards um kind of public speaking and things like that.
That's never really bothered me.
Stage fire performance stuff.
Yeah.
It is a little weird the whole podcast world where just on a stage, you know there's a bunch of people.
Um so it it kind of like it you can't forget it, obviously.
I find it interesting with podcasts where like you and I could get super, you know, deep in some conversation and forget, and you know, I have no idea how many people are watching or how many people will watch in the future.
And then that's that leads to really good conversations, honestly.
And it's a good, it's uh a net positive, I think, for podcasting uh and for these kind of long format discussions.
It's just uh it's a lot different than what I'm used to because on stage you're like, oh, there's four people here, let me just dick around, or there's four thousand people here, let me do my bet.
Like, you know, but it's good.
Yeah, it was weird.
Last night we did a we did a big podcast with uh a couple of great guests, I had um Ian Miles Chong on and uh Nikki Klein and my buddy Andrew.
And um after it was over, it was like two hours.
Uh I was like, holy shit, 5700 people were watching, you know.
Nice.
It's like if you were on a stage in front of 5,700 people, you you'd be like, it'd be intimidating, you know, the echo that would be in the arena or whatever, and it's like there's no way I can't believe that that many souls were you know participating.
I that's how I when I first got Into YouTube, uh, I came from I mean, I've been doing music for a while and just live performance and stuff like that, and you I started doing videos and they would uh I had a couple that we you know would go viral and you see those numbers and then I would always compare it to like the Hollow Hit Bowl, which is 18,000 people, really big venue, and you're like, man, like click refresh, and like another 10,000 people watched your video.
You're like, man, like a whole other stadium of people just showed up and watched that video.
Like that's crazy to think about.
And then even now, like I look at um, because I'll do my streams weekly, and uh I have some, you know, we're just it's not a huge stream yet, like not a ton of folks come.
I have some great folks that are there every day that come to every stream, but it's not a huge, you know, uh stream yet to me, knowing streamers.
But then I take a step back and I'm like, hey, like 200 people is like a full theater.
Like that's that's actually you know, if I was gonna go lug my stuff to a place and play a show, I would hope to get you know two to three hundred people, and I can get that on Twitter, but to me it it's a letdown, not actually, but you know, at first you're like, I only got 200 viewers, and but then yeah, when you take a step back coming from the live scene, you're like 200's great, like that's you know, 200 people, the door is amazing.
Like that's a it's just crazy how social media and like viewing numbers specifically has changed kind of our inner or at least my uh inner overton window of how many people I expect to be at a show or whatever.
Have you ever read that article, uh 1000 true fans?
Um I am familiar with the concept.
I don't know who wrote it though.
Was it Neil Gaiman's wife?
I forget her name.
I I can't remember who wrote it.
I I should know this, but it's featured in I'm a big Tim Ferriss fan.
Uh and it's featured in it's uh he basically just copied and pasted it in one in one of his books.
And um the same thing on his blog, but the whole premise of the book is that if you have a thousand true fans, then you can pretty much make it as a creator.
And by true fan, it's like you know, the people that buy everything you put out that fought love, watch every stream.
And you know, when we think about streaming versus a live show, the amount of effort that an audience has to put in to get in their car, go out, pay a cover fee, sit in a room that maybe they're not familiar with or haven't even been to before to watch you is is it's a higher level of commitment than like a stream too.
So um, you know, it's nice to have 5700 people view you at one time in a live stream.
But if you're looking at like the true fan metric, yeah, 200 people showing up in person is more powerful.
Yeah, it's absolutely true.
I mean, Patreon's a great example of you know, you can kind of foster your community of people, and it doesn't need to be a giant number, you just need people that are dedicated to whatever it is, whatever type of community you're trying to build.
For me, it's you know, kind of a nightly unwind.
We just get on there and say people do requests and we sing some songs and you know, talk about if there's anything kind of lighthearted in the news.
I tried not to get too deeply political, but I get a lot of trolls that come in and you know, it which is it's again so interesting that I never had to deal with any of this stuff as a a left-wing musician.
I wasn't even a left-wing musician, I just you know, kind of believed what I was told.
And then as soon as I kind of saw behind the behind the curtain a bit and realized like, oh, I guess I'm not a left-wing person at all.
I'm actually the exact opposite.
But now I it's completely uninvited.
I just get people coming at me and like throwing politics at me all the time, which I I'm grateful for because I'm learning how to uh kind of verbalize my positions and and speak about these things.
I'm just coming into the to the into my position on the right, I was completely uh unequipped to have any discussion about stuff.
I just knew that I agreed with kind of the tenets of commercial uh conservatism or libertarianism more than I could read with the left.
So at first trolls would come into my chats and stuff like that and like start, you know, calling me racists and I'd be like, I'm not a racist, but you know, that that initial reaction where you're like, I have to tell everybody, and then now I'm just like, yeah, you're right, totally.
That's that's totally what it is.
Everyone, there's 81 million racists in in the country, and and you're the only one who caught it.
Good job.
You figured it out.
Yeah, yeah, I know it's wild.
So how did you um tell me a little bit if you don't mind talking about it about um what Osberger's is and how you found out that you had it.
Yeah, sure.
Um, so it's uh autism spectrum disorder.
It's it's interesting, it's changed uh classifications, I think a bunch of times over the years.
And I think most recently, um I think it doesn't exist anymore, technically.
It's now everything is just kind of lumped in under autism spectrum disorder.
According to the DSM or whatever.
But um my mom took me to the doctor when I was four, and uh they diagnosed me then, but a diagnosis at that point in time, this is in 1988 or 1989.
Um it was looked at as like a mental handicap.
So they wanted to either institutionalize me or put me in um kind of handicapped learning.
And fortunately I'd already begun my musical journey.
My mom put me in um violin lessons when I was like two and a half or three.
So and I was really excelling at that.
Um at a kind of a really good level.
Um so she knew I wasn't uh mentally handicapped, she didn't pursue the doctor's orders or whatever, um, which I'm super grateful for because I think I would have been kind of put into a system of you know, lower level.
You would have totally totally changed your outcome.
Yeah, absolutely.
And instead of uh I'm doing I'm gonna blank on uh her name.
Temple Grandin is is a woman's name.
She um she's kind of revolutionized uh a lot of the conversation around Aspergers and stuff like that.
She's a scientist who's a little older, but she um she just kind of flipped everyone's thinking where as opposed to trying to focus on uh how to get people with uh neurodiversity to fit into like the normal box, why not you know engage them where they're at?
So for me, it's music.
So luckily for me, my I was put into that music class, and then because I excelled at that, it opened I was able to use music to kind of backdoor my way into normal social interactions and stuff like that.
Um but I think the the other path that was kind of being pushed in the eighties and and nineties was who cares that they're good at music, you need to get them good at this stuff.
And it's like, hey, if you're they try to pump you full of riddle in when you were a kid.
Um no, thank God.
I I'm uh I took a lot of Adderall as an adult and I no longer do um because I I don't think kids should be I it seems crazy to me that it's it's not for kids.
That's that is an adult drug that is hard to use responsible even for the most responsible person.
And it's super effective.
Like I'm grateful for having discovered it as an adult because I was able to actually use it um, I mean, sometimes for fun, but for the most part, it was uh I use as an actual work tool for going to the studio for um there was a time when I was working with like 15 different artists, and I would uh like a new Taylor Swift song would come out and I would help maybe four or five of them cover the same song um in the over the course of like two or three days.
And so I would have to do like four or five different different productions from scratch of the same song that I don't like.
So you get a little bit of a kick.
Yeah, it would it would really help me just to focus and um I don't know that I I haven't been diagnosed with ADHD or ADD or anything, but I I may be in that ballpark too, who knows?
Um but either way.
I had a misconception about Osbergers that it was I maybe I'm just way off base, but I thought there was like a thing where it was like kids that don't like to be don't like to be touched or a kind of averse to like embrace um a lot of fabrics I that I don't like.
Yeah, that's um sensory processing disorders uh is kind of the term for it.
But um so it's all meandies for you.
I love me and these, yeah, actually.
Really soft blankets, meandies.
Um what else do I really uh certain smells like will just if I walk into like a a lot of chemically smells in general will just I I'm out, like I I gotta leave and uh like if I walk into a mall sometimes, um, which mauls for me are the worst because it's just like you got to store like pushing out the their smell and then Hollister pushes out their smell and then Dillard's has their smell, and you know, just it's just so much um the blessing of that is that I I do have heightened kind of sensual awareness.
So it's really good for mixing, for critical listening, for mastering um for production, just everything that i in the music world um it it helps me.
Um, but you know, the downfall is that I can kind of be and you know, I'm 37 now, so I don't really get like triggered anymore and have meltdowns, but uh as a kid, you don't really know how to process your words or your feelings.
So a lot of the Asperger's kids do have meltdowns and stuff like that.
Um did you have a meltdown when you weren't 18?
When I was 18, I probably had I I think by then I had uh learned to mask it with um I uh one of the main reasons I think that uh drinking is so appealing to me and drug use in general, um, was kind of numbing these sensual sense sensory processing disorders.
Um because everything is just so overwhelming all the time, uh I drinking just kind of numb that and self-medicating, yeah.
Yeah.
Um but I think by 18 I had probably stopped um and for me I don't have I've never been like a tantrum meltdown I'm more of an implode so it's kind of like inside where I just you know shut down and I'll go like lock myself in my room for three or four days and just like veg out and do nothing and talk to nobody I don't do that anymore obviously have it I can almost time it I have like I have a meltdown about every four years.
Okay.
There's I don't have I mean I'm not saying I don't have Asperger so I'm not trying to compare my why I have meltdowns to but there's a lot of similarities between between the two.
Yeah so I um this camera it overheats I need to figure that out the settings for this but um I figured out that I like bottle anger okay because whenever I have a meltdown it's always like a really small thing.
So there's like a there's a Charles Bukowski poem I'm not sure if you're familiar with Charles Wikowski at least my big fan yeah and he's got a poem and I I'm just paraphrasing so the gist of it is it's not the big things that drive drive a man crazy.
It's just it's a snapping shoelace it's so it'll be like I remember the last time I had a meltdown was probably maybe the second to last time I had a meltdown was um in college I um I did really well my freshman year and I was able to transfer into the honors program.
Okay.
right?
And I would never have gotten into the honors program at college straight out of high school because my grades were so bad in high school, but I did so well.
And I was so excited and nervous about it because I was like, all right, this is your chance to, you know, um, uh, excel with smarter, smarter kids, the tougher classes.
This is like, this is your opportunity to prove to yourself that, you know, you were, um, always a smart kid, despite the fact that in high school, you know, you're treated like irresponsible, like you were irresponsible.
And we had our first paper due at...
noon via email like on the first day of classes and it's like five till noon I finish up the paper like you know really cutting it close and I go to send it and the internet is down in the dorm.
And I'm like if I turn this in late am I gonna get docked you know and like I'm just nervous like totally irrationally nervous about it.
It's not that big of a deal.
But I just remember snapping like $5000 a year intuition goddamn internet as well like the the door of my throat it's just like you know and it's like the snapping shoe lace it wasn't a big deal.
But then something terrible could happen.
I don't know.
I had a major breakup.
I had a fiancé when I was in college.
We got married.
Had a major breakup.
Frankly, unfazed.
But when the internet didn't work, it was like, oh!
That's the blessing of it.
There's really positive.
It's a really positive trait, I think, to be stoic in times of major duress for your friends or whatever's going on.
I've been through quite a few of those scenarios where, especially
as a performer even like just on a kind of a low stakes low stakes scenario but like when something breaks on stage or whatever you know you just got to kind of go with the flow it's super helpful that because i'm just unfazed by most things but same thing the snapping of a shoelace the only difference is for me rather than go big with it i would have probably dropped out of college and locked myself in the room you know like it's a it's more of an internal it's like oh i don't deserve to be here i'm you know and i go to that place as opposed but i but i fully uh you know understand the blow up because i'm having that blow up in my brain
and i'm destroying my life you know in a certain way also by leaving or whatever the scenario is like i'm i'm I'm fleeing it as opposed to uh you know fighting it but it it's it's you know which neither one's better or worse it's just implosion versus explosion.
That's one of the things that um Ayn Rand really helped me with actually um I need to read more Ayn Rand I I'm a Bukowski fan I haven't read much Ayn Rand though.
So um if I were you I would recommend just reading the fountainhead and if you don't have the time to read 800 pages in fine print you can watch the 1946 or 1949 movie with Gary Cooper.
She wrote the screenplay.
So it is not a Hollywood butchering of the book.
It's obviously edited because the book was so big, but you can watch that and get the gist.
But the reason I wanted to mention that is because you were kind of talking about imploding and sort of like self-sabotaging when something bad happens.
Absolutely, yeah.
That book convinced – ever since I read that book, I finished it when I was 17, I do not talk shit to myself.
And I think that people underestimate the amount of – derogatory remarks they make in their own head to themselves.
Absolutely.
And a lot of our problems would be solved if people just didn't talk shit to themselves.
Yeah, see yourself like a like a friend as opposed to a foe.
It's it's crazy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I don't know.
I just think go ahead.
You go ahead, man.
Your turn.
Uh I was gonna say you see, I can I can see it now with people when I walk, you know, just in in any kind of casual conversation, and I'm overly analytical, um, armchair psychologist, but just from doing my own research on my own brain and the Asperger's brain and and different uh ADHD brains, just different types of neurodiversity, uh neurodivergent brains.
Um I see kind of the roadblocks, not that I can necessarily help people get past them, but I'm I'm aware of them just from reading and stuff, and it's crazy how that's one of the biggest ones is just people don't even realize how much they tell themselves they can't do things all day.
And it's just from little things, you know, even if it's you know, whatever, doing your laundry, there's all sorts of little roadblocks we have in our heads of oh, I can't do this because I'm not good enough.
And it's it's not even like as big of a a bully as it sounds, like, oh, you're not good enough.
It's just really small little things, and they kind of add up and they prevent you from uh kind of achieving full potential or or even you know 50% potential for some folks.
There's but I think that's I I was listening to like I said, your your speech or your podcast yesterday with um Tim Young and you guys are talking about how uh you know um mental illness is stigmatized, and and I think that's one of the biggest things we should get past is um you know helping people get past these roadblocks and and just kind of just defeating that that inner monologue of uh of failure that we all kind of have because it it does seem to be a common thread amongst all people.
And something you see on Tim Ferris's uh, you know, he he always does a great job of kind of getting to um what would be the word uh kind of the principles that link a lot of successful people together.
Yeah, he words it a certain way, but common denominators exactly thank you.
Common denominators amongst successful people, and one of them is that they've defeated that roadblock, and right I think it's a universal thing.
Like every everybody I know has it.
The most successful people I know, it's not like they don't have it, they just have found a way to work past it.
And it doesn't work for everybody the same way.
Like you need to find your own kind of you know, neural pathway through your demons or your whatever you want to call that voice in your head.
But for me, I'm able to get past some of them and prevent you know, most of my kind of go melancholy cry in the corner type stuff that I used to do when I was younger.
Um, but I mean that that's the thing with with uh the demons are always finding new ways to kind of pop up in your head and new evil will always find its way to you know lurk and and get to you.
So do you think that it comes you think that it comes from like our deep rooted our deep roots with Judeo-Christian sort of zeitgeists and that like you know, right in the beginning of the Bible, uh, and regardless of whether or not you're Christian, you're still if you're living a Western civilization, you're heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian values, right?
Consciously, subconsciously, whatever.
So do you think that you know, right in the beginning of the Bible, you have the the fall of man and it's just establishes like you are inherently flawed because of original sin.
Sure.
Do you think that that that maybe is played a part in how human beings for the last centuries have perceived themselves because the enlightenment kind of happened in conjunction with a um transition from a supernatural perspective on religion to a pragmatic one?
Yeah, you know, like if you look at the Jefferson Bible, for example, he kept all of all of Jesus' um uh uh speak uh all of his words in the Bible, but he cut out all of the uh miracles and supernatural stuff.
I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but he did that.
Yeah, and you know, that was sort of uh an enlightenment or a type thing to do where it's like all right, you know, what is what does this mean regardless of whether or not it's true?
And I and I think that it's possible, this is just me speculating that some of the great things that people were able to accomplish during the enlightenment were out of um uh like some sort of threshold was crossed where people were able to think independently um and critically in a way that um sort of shielded them from the subconscious impacts of I don't know, dogma.
Yeah, uh not to be pedantic, but um I don't know.
I just I wonder I wonder often wonder about the uh long term effects of uh I do think there's something uh my personal kind of journey with with God and Christ and um just religion in general.
I I grew up um in a cat like an Irish Italian Catholic family, but we weren't, you know, it was it wasn't a big part of our lives.
And then I um as I became uh, you know, kind of more aware of stuff, I I think made the mistake that a lot of people do, which is where I thought I had outsmarted God, right?
Or outsmarted religion, like I had these, oh no, it's not like that.
You can't, you know, just these kind of um condescending views of religion where it's like, oh, you guys really think you did uh wine into water, you know, all this all these things.
And uh which looking back, I now realize those are like the most juvenile atheistic arm arguments that exist.
I think there are some I personally do believe in God and and Christ.
Um, but I do think there are there are at least atheist arguments that that are good arguments.
Um I don't agree with them, but at least they're they hold water uh to some degree.
Um, but the arguments that I was making when I was, you know, 14 to 25 were we're just like, well, if you guys ever thought, oh yeah, we're just a speck of space dust, you don't even know.
And like you just this is like this this condescending atheist that exists uh or existed inside of me that was like sure, probably wrong, very wrong.
And then um, but to go back to uh what you're saying about the the Jefferson Bible, um I do think that pragmatic approach without the miracles, uh, while it's not great for everybody, I think that actually uh is helpful for some folks for for me personally,
like I being that kind of condescending atheist or agnostic at that time, it was there was no chance that I was gonna just start believing in miracles unless I saw one, um, which I think some people uh have done and claim to have done, and you know, that's that's great if if that's something that does happen in your life.
But for me, uh and my kind of brain type in general, like I I wasn't going to ever believe in Christianity or God through that path.
So taking a more pragmatic approach.
Um I forget the name of the pastor that I or could have been a philosopher, whatever.
Somebody kind of broke down some of the miracles for me, and um, and I'm not saying this is necessarily correct, but like one example was they said, Oh, well, when you take um, you know, Jesus turning water into wine, uh, maybe think of it as he was the life of the party.
He could go to a party that had only water at it, and then he would turn it to wine and turn everybody into a happy, uh, you know, kind of under the under the wine influence version of themselves.
Everyone becomes this beautiful, happy, wind out, you know, you know, person.
And that again, I'm not necessarily saying I believe that's the case with the miracle.
Right, but it could be a metaphor.
It doesn't have to be historical to be, yeah, true.
And that's that that opened the part of my brain that made me realize like, oh, I've just been this condescending idiot for so long, like thinking that I've outsmarted, you know, texts that are thousands and thousands of years old, like as if nobody's ever had these these ideas that I've had before.
Um but I I do like that pragmatic approach to Christianity and to to God in general and being able to look at the miracles um on a completely just logical level.
And then also that I I think for me that allows me to open up the spiritual level and open up uh the emotional level, you know, the other other layers, peel back the other layers of the miracles and kind of the more uh challenging parts of the Bible too, uh that were for me challenging to accept.
Uh and but I'm by no means an expert in any of this stuff.
Like I uh like I said, it's been a long road to God for me.
I didn't even uh I think I would have called myself agnostic until 33, and I'm 37 now, so it's only been recent.
Um, which I know you had Ron Coleman on recently, and I was listening to a podcast of his with I'm gonna butcher his name, Surar Salal.
I think Salal is his name.
Um But it was uh I should look it up to be respectful, not uh name drop, but um yeah, show some respect.
Yeah, geez.
Go on go on the cleaner.
Right?
Sarab, Sarabamari.
Um but Ram was having a conversation with Sarab and they were talking about uh how it's a a completely different path um to kind of come to God or or a religion in your later years because it's an actual informed choice as opposed to some folks who have the blessing of being born into a family and just having faith their whole life.
Um which I've had some of those friends throughout the years, and uh I wouldn't say that I was jealous in the moment, um, you know, when I when I wasn't a Christian or when I wasn't uh a believer.
But looking back now, I'm like, man, you've just had faith your whole life.
That's pretty amazing to me that that people are born into families that have faith and then just stick with it and they never waver.
And that and that's amazing.
And uh, you know, I don't think one's necessarily better or worse.
It's it's interesting.
But I I always like to look at kind of the other perspectives of things, and and that's one that's kind of dawned on me recently.
Is like, man, like some folks just really it's not even something they have to worry about.
Kind of like some folks are just born into billions of dollars, you know, it's money's just never something they worry about or have to waver with.
It's just I do what makes the world better, I make the or whatever makes me have fun, like that's what they focus on.
Same thing with people with faith, they're born into great faith.
They they never waver in it and they live their life that way, and it's and it's impressive.
As I've gotten older, I now really respect that in people.
Um, whereas when I was younger, I just I think I thought it was dumb, you know.
Yeah, and I think that one of the problems.
Um with faith, just generally speaking, is that people naturally kind of come to it out of a um a concern for what's going to happen in the afterlife.
I think people are distracted by that and kind of miss the point.
So, you know, there's all sorts of different brands of Christianity, so you can't really speak of it in one lump sum.
I mean, to be Catholic is completely different than to be Baptist.
But you have a lot of people that are deeply afraid of going to hell for all eternity when they die, and they believe that hell is a physical place where there's just constant burning and torture and anguish forever.
Right.
And when you're when you're coming from a place of fear like that, um I think that psychologically you might take shortcuts in order to do or believe whatever seems necessary to avoid that outcome.
And to me, my my sort of pivotal moment, and hopefully I have more pivotal moments because I probably haven't landed on the right spot, but I sort of pivotal moment was when I was like, all right, let's just let's just think about this for a second.
Like nobody really knows what happens in the afterlife, and chances are it's fine, whatever it is.
That's kind of you just like from an intuit intuitive, like, yeah, all right, you know, what's really going on.
And then and then from when once I reach that point, I was like, all right, let's say, you know, if if hell is real and God is good, and I got it wrong during my life in terms of what I believed or lived to.
What are the what are the odds that you know I go up to the the pearly gates and I'm like, ooh, sorry, I misinterpretation, you know, and he's like too bad button, you know.
I'm like, yeah, it's probably not gonna play like that, you know, if that's the case.
So I just sort of that totally took all the fear of hell away from me.
And now I've kind of come to the conclusion where people are like, Oh, do you think that Jesus Christ literally came back to the from the dead or not?
And my response is I don't think it matters.
I think that you know, maybe uh uh you can you can be a Christian and not have a not have come to a conclusion on that specific thing, that miracle, and maybe it's a metaphor, and maybe when it says that Christ is the body, you know, we are the body of Christ, it's it it's it's explaining that the resurrection is actually in us and by living like Christ, Christ is back from the dead.
Yeah, right.
So maybe that's it.
I don't know if that's true or not, but but the point I'm trying to make is you you can get more out of the text and the faith if you're not just there to avoid punishment.
Yeah.
And those those layers of the conversation and uh whether it's an actual conversation or an internal conversation, I think are significantly more impactful and important than uh whether or not Christ came back or you know, in a physical form, or whether or not hell as a as a location is real.
Like I whether or not you believe those specific things, I'm not saying those aren't important details, but that to me, as far as uh a conversational level and bettering myself and bettering humanity, you know, doing what I can to make humanity better and you know make the world a better place for people like believing those things um isn't a make or break between you and I or between me and somebody else, versus uh are they willing to accept that Judeo-Christian values make a better society.
Like that's the more important part to me, whether if we agree on that, I think it's it that's good.
I don't I don't think we need to agree on whether or not hell is a you know what it looks like there, if it's uh you know, uh if it's a motel and and poo kipsy or if it's uh you know whatever, like it hell can be a place inside of us.
I've heard I've heard Orange County.
Yeah, exactly.
I've heard some uh compelling arguments in in so many different directions about whether or not hell is an actual physical location or if hell is kind of mind a state of mind that that you put yourself in by br by sinning.
And and that again coming from a pragmatic uh uh viewpoint, like that that made more sense to me at first.
Uh and I think that's where I'm kind of at right now on my journey.
Um, but I'm open to I've been wrong so many times already in my life that I'm open to being wrong right now, you know, like maybe hell is a physical occasion.
Um to me, what makes the most sense is that it's you know more of a position that you put yourself in by breaking commandments or by sinning or whatever, you know, whatever.
Right uh whatever.
That's where I am too.
But I I kind of one thing that I miss um one thing I miss about where I was psychologically when I had a more literal interpretation of the Bible and faith in it, is when you when you believe that Jesus Christ literally came back from the dead with certainty, it does allow you to have this tremendous sense that you have a relationship with God.
Okay.
And one thing I've noticed in my faith is that since I've sort of transitioned gradually to a more um philosophical interpretation and perspective on the text.
Um I totally believe in God.
That's not the problem, but God seems very vacant.
Okay, you know.
And I don't know.
Well, um you know, I think of God as this sort of transcendent um creator of the universe, but since I'm agnostic as to some of the details about God, um, it's hard for me to, you know, like there were times when there was a time in my life 15 years ago where I could pray for 15 minutes and have goosebumps like I, you know, like I was listening to a symphony, right?
And that you feel like you know, you have the hand of God like on you and supporting you.
And now that I've sort of transitioned away from um like I said, those the like the confidence in the literal um details uh of the nature of God, it's hard for me to feel like I I have a relationship with with God because I um very agnostic as to the nature of God.
Like people ask me if I believe a guy, I say absolutely, I just don't know anything about them.
Yeah, and that's yeah.
I um I I don't come like I I don't think I prayed until I was 35.
I mean I think I did some I went to a Catholic uh elementary school on and off um a few years, so I'm I did some prayers, but I mean it I wouldn't call it praying because I was just doing what I was told by my teachers, it wasn't you know from a spiritual place, I didn't believe in it.
It was just this is what I have to do to get through this day um type thinking.
Um but I could absolutely see from from your perspective, if I had come through and already kind of experienced that level of connection, you know, you you want your journey to continue, so you need to continue down your your personal path with God if if that for you is now in a place where it's less about those chill bumps and and kind of more about embracing God as a totality and seeing God and everything, or you know, whatever.
Um I for me kind of to give you a different side of that coin, I came from um almost like a I think everybody says they're Buddhist when they're when they're agnostic just because it sounds neat, but like I can't.
You had like an eastern kind of leaning.
Yeah, and and I um I would see God in kind of everything, and that was what opened me up to accepting you know God in other forms.
So I'm I'm grateful that I went through that kind of phase of my life, but um, but having I've never had those moments where I and still to this day, I've never prayed and felt um kind of overwhelmed by by anything.
Um I still pray, you know, as as often as I can.
Um but I don't I've never felt that one-on-one kind of close personal connection.
Um I'm striving for it.
Um but but I have felt a connection to the universe, which I logically can say to myself, oh, the universe is God, because it's everything, and you know, I I can make that correlation.
So I have felt that type of feeling, that type of connection to everything before, to oneness or whatever you want to call it, which which I can now logically tell myself, oh that that was a connection to God, but it never came from me specifically talking to one channel.
Is that makes sense?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
I miss that.
I and like I know you said that you never had it, so you can't really miss it, but it's um it's an incredibly uh reassuring feeling.
Like you know, if you feel if you if you genuinely believe that the creator of the universe is listening to you and wants the best for you.
It's awesome.
It it's very comforting.
And people don't like I said, I still consider myself a Christian and I still believe in God.
Yeah, but um I I'm just uh I don't know.
I'm I just don't know anything about him.
And that's and that's that's a fair approach.
I think that's uh too many folks are in the same boat, but they take the other route where they say where they try to kind of puff out their chest and like no, I know, I know it's like this.
And it and that that's what and I've been that person before on the opposite side where I'm like, oh no, God doesn't it's like this.
It's uh there's no what do you really think?
It's uh we're all on a spaceship on the back of an alien uh fingernail or something, you know, those kind of thoughts.
So it it's it's good and humble of you and and honest of you to to say it that way as opposed to taking the alternative route, which would be to kind of you know solidify some kind of stance that you that that none of us could back up.
Yeah like a flat earther would do, honestly.
I mean, if we're being honest.
Yeah, yeah, I know.
So it's a crazy journey.
I don't you know, I should probably spend more time thinking about it, but I really really uh have appreciated um Jordan Jordan Peterson's series on the Bible.
I don't know if you follow Jordan Peterson at all.
Uh yeah, dude, yeah.
I haven't listened to um much recently, but I've read the Twelve Rules for Life and uh he's a good thing.
Well he did a biblical series years ago where he did uh lectures on different stories from the old testament and what they really mean based on like archetypes, and it's absolutely fascinating.
It's very appealing on an intellectual level, but it's hard.
As human beings, we need more than just understanding.
Sure.
You know, it's like part of the human condition.
We need just just knowing the truth isn't enough.
Um, you know, so you can go through the if you go through the Bible and you make the best arguments for every interpretation of every story.
Um you could still be left with a void.
And I I don't know the the answer, and I don't I don't mean to just talk in circles, but I think this is like I said, the human condition is always getting closer but never arriving.
Yeah, and that's I guess where the where faith takes over and uh you know and that's for me, like where I'm kind of at coming from the other side of it is now where I'm just like, Oh, well, I know I know what I lacked before was faith.
I had none, I had no faith.
But I had this kind of intuition inside of me that was like, Oh, the universe is all connected, everything is one.
We're these beautiful, amazing like bodies that have been like I was kind of building the argument for Christianity on my own, which I I think again comes from our ego and our non I I couldn't accept God as it was told to me.
I had to build it myself.
And then the funny part is you get to the end, you're like, oh, all I did was write down what Christians have been saying the whole time or what Catholic, you know, what religious I shouldn't necessarily specifically say one religion, but religious folks in general kind of have certain uh common denominators that connect them all together with and I was just essentially building that same thing and then trying to take credit for it myself, but it when in reality I could have if I would have been blessed with faith from you know an earlier age, I could have just taken other people's words for it.
But I think that over time that's what kind of reinforces uh you know, these good the good values is us being allowed to the freedom and and that's why God gives us free will is to allow us the freedom to kind of stray and then come back and be like, Oh, I I actually do believe this because I I went and saw the other side and I was like, Oh, that wasn't that definitely wasn't the answer.
So let me come back to this.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Did you um specifically go to uh Belmont because it was Christian school, or were you doing it because the music program is amazing?
Uh yeah, I thought I wanted to be a producer.
And so my thinking was if I want to be a producer, I should study at a university in a music town.
And I don't want I didn't want to live in LA and I didn't want to live in New York.
And uh so Nashville was a good option.
And so yeah, I looked into Belmont, it had a really good music business program and a really good audio engineering program.
And I went and while I was there, I decided that I didn't want to be an audio engineer professionally.
Um but I st I didn't change majors.
I I graduated and got the degree and had a great experience.
I love being in the studio, but it's just um it's a very difficult uh what I tell people is uh you can make it in the music business.
Um, but you have to you have to be unwilling to do anything else.
It's true.
Yeah.
You know, and so it there's other things I'm interested in that I'd be happy to do.
Yeah, so I I I wasn't gonna make it as a big producer if I if I didn't you have to have that zeal.
It's it's such a commit I um I I struggle with that personally, and especially now it just like I was saying with my my wife and my my child and stuff, and just kind of getting older and um having more time to actually reflect on my own uh desires, like what I want out of life and where I want to be in ten years and stuff like that.
And when I first started making music, um it was as a lifeline, like you know, when I was like two or three, it was my only way to kind of communicate with people and kind of that turned into when I was in my teens, like my only way to kind of get out of Ohio and and pursue my own, you know, life or whatever was all through music, and and uh I'm grateful for all that and I was able to make a living out of it, which I'm grateful for.
But now that I've kind of reflected on like having a family and and what I want for my my children, like I don't I don't want to tour, which is so streaming is a great option for me.
Like I love doing this and uh I love producing my my own stu my own little studio and I I do all my recordings at home.
So I love that.
I love being able to work from home.
But if the the opportunity came up tomorrow for me to go do uh, you know, a supporting act tour for six months for one of my favorite artists, like I'd I would turn it down.
And I know that's not the right thing to say if you want to succeed in the music industry.
Um but I'd rather carve up my own path and like kind of if it's if it involves music as a halftime thing and then doing other, you know, online things that I enjoy.
Like I I found other things that I enjoy where I I guess my point is at first it was only music, that was all I could which was super beneficial because what like what you like you said, it has to be everything to you.
And then as I've gotten older, I found other things and now I'm kind of like uh I don't I'm not gonna go do that.
And I've done some tours and stuff like that.
Like it's not like I I haven't experienced that stuff.
I just I've never enjoyed being away from home, never enjoyed like the new town every day type thing.
I know like I read a lot of books from um you know old older musicians and stuff, like uh Duff McKagan has a book and um some of the guys from Guns and Rose and stuff.
They they all write books about like you know, these great crazy stories and stuff on the road.
And when I was younger, I was like, yeah, that sounds awesome.
And now I'm just like I I have no desire to do that.
I would much rather like be a mixing engineer from home and like work on other people's records or you know, do production or do streams, like whatever I can uh do from my own studio and kind of build my area as as a musical destination as opposed to having to go play places, which is I I love that about Nashville.
Like there's an actual live scene here where if I wanted to go perform you know four or five nights a week at different places and do that, I could do that.
Um and if you make the right friends, you can just hop on stage for one for one song if you want, you know.
Yeah, it's silly.
That's that's it's people don't understand how cool the culture is in Nashville.
The everybody on the Broadway strip they're so connected.
And they'll do their they'll do their um, you know, their uh wagon wheel covers at the bars, and then they'll do a real house party after, you know, where they play their originals and stuff.
And that's it's just such a cool scene.
And if you get entrenched there, they'll let you come up and sing any song you want.
And it's just it's an awesome culture.
I love it.
Yeah, I um my first time here, I I think I was here for like three hours, and then after three hours, I was like, I need to live here.
Like I and it took me a few years to get out here, but just in that moment, as soon as I saw it was everything that I coming from Ohio, I moved to Los Angeles thinking it was gonna be this musical haven.
Um, and it wasn't.
I mean, when I got there, I think in the 80s, maybe it was a little different, you know.
I wasn't here for that, but when I got there in like 2004, it you know, it's just glitz and glamour, and it's fake, it's super fake.
Everyone, everything's you know, run by the acting industry, which is all uh just a different world.
And I kind of bummed me out.
Um, and I never knew about Nashville or Austin uh or New Orleans.
You know, there's there's other cities that have what I was looking for, but I ended up in LA, uh, which I'm grateful for.
I'm glad, you know.
It's a good experience to try to make it as an adult in in California.
It's tough.
And it's it's a learning.
And it's completely unique.
Um, I think as a as a city, like there's it's crazy.
But coming back to Nashville and seeing it, I was like, oh my god, this is what I wanted 15 years ago.
Like, this is what I was looking for.
Let me get out there and see actual musicians going and doing gigs, doing three or four gigs a day, then heading over to the studio and like actually, you know, getting better at their craft and like writing songs together, like the publishing houses and stuff like that.
That whole scene is just so cool to me.
Um, and that's where I think uh, you know, I want to spend the the back half of my life um you know out here doing that type of stuff um mostly for the reason that you can be actually be an actual musician and have to leave the leave the state I mean California kind of the main the only gig you can really get is being a touring musician with either yourself as an artist or you know with another artist something like that and like that just has never been something that I've wanted to strive for and I don't think you could pay me enough to leave my family like it
just isn't something I'm into but out here in Nashville you can actually build a build a name for yourself and get work going places which is just awesome.
And as far as monetization is concerned obviously there were a lot of huge changes in the music business um uh as a result of Napster basically in streaming so the model completely changed from record sales to 360 deals and then 360 deals really you only work out for like five percent of the acts that are even signed.
And so a lot of uh musicians have have gone the indie route and um successfully would you say that you know the best route to monetization for an artist is sort of like this um monetizing YouTube channels sort of bootstrap Patreon that kind of is that just is that the ticket now?
I would yeah I mean that's in my opinion like pretty much every all of a record deal is is a predatory bank loan it's it's they specifically look for people who are going to take a bad deal um which you know I I I don't think that's ever a good option.
I know some people come from you know circumstances where they they need to do that it seems um because they don't have any other way or at least that's what they think but yeah I mean if I when I advise people or uh just to converse with people like I I think you can do so much on your own.
I mean even with your iPhone now you or whatever phone you have you can like record something and you can put that on a SoundCloud page and you can you know get viewers and then you can crowdsource whatever 500 bucks to get into a studio to do something like you can you can get there on your pro record at home.
Yeah, or at least with a friend, like you can, you can find somebody in your town who can do it.
Or I mean, you could go on sound better and like, you know, find somebody for, there's so much access now.
And there's so many like revenue streams that exist that it's a lot of work to, you know, find all the new ones and sort through which ones are going to work and which ones don't.
But I mean, I've, I've had the blessing of being Indian pretty much my whole life.
Or whatever, last 15, 12, 14 years, something like that.
But just owning all those revenue streams and being able to like actually work for yourself for me has always been better.
I think I and I've seen a lot of my friends over the years uh get signed and then nothing and that is a a career killer like in for 99% of the people that it happens to and the crazy part to me is that they strive for it.
Like they they'll move out from wherever they're at like I'm gonna go to Los Angeles, I'm gonna get a record deal.
That's my goal.
And then they get there and they get the record deal and of course nothing happens because if that's your goal you've already achieved your goal you're done like the people that end up succeeding in that system which don't get it twisted I'm not like one of those jaded folks that's like it doesn't work.
It definitely works.
So you can't but it's the people that wouldn't make it it would be it's the people that would have made it anyway like the the record companies.
It's the folks bigger than life too like I I have no desire to be huge like Katy Perry or or Bieber like I I don't have that in me.
I've never I I love playing to like theater sized crowds um you know 500 to 700 seat rooms maybe a thousand seat rooms like that's cool with me.
I don't really want to do like a stadium.
I wouldn't you know it it doesn't seem exciting to me.
And and I I don't um when I write and when I perform and stuff like I don't put together a show in my head that is of that caliber.
Like I'm I I love Damien Rice.
I love uh Ed Sheeran like a lot of the acoustic guys and stuff and um I don't think in kind of those terms of like let's do a giant production and like do it.
And like I know there's guys that do like Nikki six is a good example like he you know when he was like 16 had the vision in his head of like oh we have to have huge hair because when people are 50 or 500 feet away or a thousand feet away they have to be able to see the hair and like this whole kind of genius.
Yeah and like and I and I totally respect that.
And if if I had that type of vision for myself or whatever I would probably have a different opinion about you know kind of major labels and that stuff because I I think you do kind of need them to get to that level but I I think as a if you want to be a musician and a songwriter and stuff like you don't you know necessarily need that.
And and I think those things will present themselves those types of deals will present themselves if you do need them.
but I think more importantly is kind of monetizing on your own, building building the ability to be a free creative, you know, whether that's the thousand true fans method or whatever, whatever it is to get your kind of basic bills paid to allow you the freedom to be creative and to pursue other things and then and maybe that you know that next layer of the of the giant stadium show or whatever, you know, maybe that for some people pops later in life or whatever.
But for me, I've always just kind of been like wanting to make good sounding records, uh, and I I love doing it on my own because I thoroughly enjoy sound design.
I thoroughly enjoy mixing, like I said, with the uh sensory disorders and stuff like that.
I just love fixing things so they sound perfect in my opinion, which you know it's always subjective, but to me, like I'm like, man, I if I could just add this one little bell sound, it would be like a happy little thing, and then there's the low end going, and I just you know, it gets me excited and like I don't get that excitement from the major label side of music.
Um and I know there's people that do.
I used to kind of be on the other like um bitterish side of it.
Not that I was bitter, but it sounds bitter to be like, oh, I don't want to be like that.
And I didn't, I couldn't really um vocalize why I didn't want to be like that.
Um, which sounds a lot like just being jaded or like, oh, I I would never want to be Katie Perry.
And it's like, why wouldn't you want to be Katie Perry?
Oh, well, here's why, because I actually enjoy this other side of music way more.
And I love the the feeling of you know, uh there's a venue in California called Hotel Cafe that it is great.
There's just these kind of smaller, intimate venues where you can really make magic happen as an artist.
Um and those moments in my opinion don't really exist in kind of the big pop stadium type shows.
There's other moments that exist, you know, where the fireworks blow up over Bon Jovi's head and he sings the right note, and it's like, you know, that's a different type of moment.
But for me, the moments that I can visualize, which I think visualization is so important, um the the things that I can visualize are kind of these more intimate moments and stuff like that.
So I've always just kind of built myself and my built my records around kind of smaller sounds and like acoustic instruments and I love analog gear and and that type of stuff.
So um you got an LA2A at the house?
Uh I have the warm audio version, actually.
The have you used any of the warm the warm gear?
I haven't used any gear for almost 10 years.
Well, seven years.
Uh but I just love the LA2A that they had it on T B. I mean, it was perfect.
That's butter.
I got to uh I got to to play drums for like two seconds at Ocean Way, um, going through just all the gear in in that room.
It's just like I know the church, the old church.
Yeah, it's amaz I we did uh in between sessions, they were nice enough to let the film crew do a couple of videos for me and my buddies that were there.
And the biggest takeaway for me was hearing my voice, like hearing everything through that gear, which I just don't have the chance to do without big budgets.
Um but that room, you just can't you can't really simulate that room.
I know they have actual plugins to simulate that specific room, but they just don't.
Yeah, they're not there yet, but they'll they'll get there.
Yeah, it's crazy.
I I am I'm a big believer in the ability of technology to to trick analog.
Um, but I understand that it's not there yet in a lot of cases.
So don't get me wrong, I have a deep appreciation for analog, but I love it.
I think that we're gonna get there.
I think that um I think that you can get a and this is blasphemy to say, right?
But I I think you can get a better sound out of all digital.
Like I look at some of like the especially in the obviously the pop world is just like some of the sounds that some of those producer kids get.
Like uh, I'm a big fan of like Maddion, you know, the kid, he's up in France.
Just some like electronic artists that um that they're a little younger, closer like uh probably 20 to 24 range, but they've grown up in the head space of they're kind of the first generation to grow up in the headspace of having logic or having uh uh these kind of accessible DAWs and to see what they've done with the digital side, it sounds bigger and better than kind of anything analog ever will.
And I don't mean that like better is a bad word because uh you know it doesn't need to compare them, but to be able to achieve that level of sonic quality where every single frequency in the spectrum is touched as opposed to you know, and in the way you do it in analog is you get the hiss, right?
You put the the high end hiss on something or some low end, you know, boominess and like you can kind of build a wall of sound, but the the kids that are making wall of sounds on purpose, specifically inside of an electronic DAW without any analog gear, like that stuff when you put it in big speakers like EDC or Coachella or whatever, like it just hits it a different way that I don't think anything analog will ever be able to do as much as Dave Grohl wishes it would if he sits in the garage and makes that.
Well, and the thing is, it's not that analog or digital are better or worse.
It's just a different sound.
Yeah.
So it like you can't just knock the digital stuff because it's digital.
I mean, does it sound good?
Yeah, and you can't knock the analog stuff because it's old school.
If it sounds good.
It's silly.
Folks get so caught up in that.
And I and and to you know, to give credit to analog, like I for my personal stuff that I like to make, like I said, I like to use acoustic instruments and small a small sound and then amplify to make it big.
So I need analog gears, so obviously the grass is always greener, right?
So I'm always I always wish I could put like the you know, these giant kick drums and like these these huge digital sounds, because I open up Omnisphere or whatever, you know, whatever plugin I'm using, I'm just like, how can I use this in one of my songs?
And then I listen and like you know, I'm just the acoustic country guy, and I'm like, I can't really do it, but it's fine.
Well, you should make a dance, you should make an uh an electronic dance record.
I do have one song I put out.
Uh I have a I've been doing experiments over the years just on uh Spotify and stuff.
Um I have a a pop punk band that I released uh that's just me, but you know, whatever.
But then I did uh a DJ name M3 Music Makes Me.
So music makes me M3 is the name.
Um but I did like a dubstep song, and it's not good by any means.
So but it's but it's uh it was fun to do.
It got me to uh you know, kind of explore that side of my brain, which is good.
That's awesome, man.
Well, thanks so much for coming on.
I I really enjoyed our conversation.
We've like gone all over the map.
It's awesome to finally interact with you.
Yeah, that's cool.
Where can people find you?
Uh, if you go to keep your soul.co, keep your soul.co, um, there's it's just a link tree with all my different stuff.
Or on Twitter, I'm at J Coco.
Uh, pretty much anywhere, I'm at Jake Coco.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much for uh coming on.
Let's uh stay in touch.
Yeah, and um uh good luck to everything that you're working on.
Thanks, brother.
Appreciate it.
Take care.
Absolutely.
I soldly ask of every man who hears this case to let his own mind pronounce a verdict upon it.
