On the Steve Laws Question
What is he actually asking for? Andrew Gold interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSuXaBpGlA4 Liam Tuffs interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqTGDzYB0Aw
What is he actually asking for? Andrew Gold interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSuXaBpGlA4 Liam Tuffs interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqTGDzYB0Aw
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| So I thought we'd have a talk about the Steve Laws issue because he's been going on a few of the, I guess we call Civnat podcasts recently, and they find his position just far too extreme, even though in some ways they do have some sympathies with it, as Andrew Gold points out, and he went on Liam Tufts' podcast the other day. | |
| And I think it's worth just having a chat about. | |
| It's just worth having a bit of an overview on what it is we're actually dealing with. | |
| Now, before we get into this conversation, I just want to caveat this with, I don't mind Steve. | |
| I've met him a few times. | |
| He seems like an alright guy to me on a personal level. | |
| And, you know, I don't wish him ill or anything like that. | |
| But I think that people aren't understanding the position that Steve occupies in the discourse and what the purpose of what he does is. | |
| And they treat his opinions and desires with more weight than they deserve. | |
| Now, I'm not trying to sound offensive when I say that to anyone. | |
| But I think people are used to legislating from a fictional position. | |
| This position of, well, I would like X, Y, and Z, and that's what I'm asking for. | |
| And these people are everywhere, right? | |
| I mean, I'm not trying to be offensive when I say this, but Steve Laws occupies on the right the same sort of position that Greta Thunberg occupies on the left, or Zach Polanski, or just Stop Oil. | |
| I mean, they make the most ridiculous demand of a thing that will just never happen. | |
| It's just never going to be that they get the things that they want. | |
| And that's what Steve does on the right. | |
| He makes the most extreme demand because you can stick consistently to the most extreme demand. | |
| You can just say, well, I want every foreigner gone, total remigration, as he would put it. | |
| And that's just what I'm demanding. | |
| But then you end up in the sort of position where any amount of interrogation into that reveals that there isn't a plan there. | |
| It becomes kind of like Greta Thunberg saying, well, our job is not to provide solutions. | |
| It's just to demand them. | |
| It's like, okay. | |
| But if you actually don't have a plan for how that could happen, then it's just not going to happen, is it? | |
| And by staking out the most extreme position, it's a good way to gain notoriety. | |
| It's a good way to gain plaudits on Twitter. | |
| But it also does silo you off into a certain area that I think ends up being some sort of cul-de-sac. | |
| Because I think inherently people are for things they will find reasonable. | |
| Now, what they find reasonable changes based on their perspective and based on the events that they're undergoing, they're living through. | |
| But there are some things that just seem too unreasonable and will probably forever stay outside of the bounds of discourse. | |
| Now, I think that it is the case that it could be in the future that certain communities will just be told to leave wholesale from Britain because of the behavior on a wide scale of those communities. | |
| A good example of this at the moment is Somalians in America. | |
| This daycare scam thing where it's just like an incredible amount of fraud coming from this community. | |
| I think it's possible that Trump just says, no, you just, Somalians have to leave because the entire community is in some way compromised. | |
| And in Britain, this probably will happen with the Pakistani community and rape gangs. | |
| I think at some point, it won't be Nigel Farage, but at some point, a right-wing government may well say, no, the community itself was participating in this, and therefore you have to leave. | |
| But I think that saying every person who doesn't have two English parents has to leave is going to seem kind of ridiculous and will not be the sort of thing that's accepted. | |
| Like, for example, one of Steve Law's most extreme positions is that people who have an English mum or dad and a non-English mum or dad have to leave the country. | |
| And it's really quite hard to see from his own premise how he can derive that. | |
| Because his argument is ethnicity is inherited from your parents and England belongs to the English. | |
| Two things I completely agree with, by the way. | |
| This is entirely correct. | |
| But from that, unfortunately for him, it does follow that people who have an English parent therefore inherit English ethnicity. | |
| And because they are ethnically English, they have a claim to England. | |
| So their claim through his own logic is just as strong as anyone else's. | |
| And it becomes an argument about purity and percentages, which he says multiple times, but especially in this podcast, he's not interested in becoming an ethnic or racial purist about these things, which, fair enough, it's sensible. | |
| So he holds a few positions that are a bit contradictory to his own principles. | |
| But also, it's just not going to happen, right? | |
| In a practical way, in the same way that Greta Thunberg is like, we need to stop all oil or, you know, whatever. | |
| We need to say, you know, the planet's going to die tomorrow. | |
| It's just, that's a political position that I just don't think is going to happen. | |
| However, there are millions of people in Britain who just shouldn't be here. | |
| They were let in against our will, and that's been happening since the Windrush generation, but who also have not done anything to try and integrate because they live in quite large now, ethnic enclaves, what we could call colonies, that are not interested in becoming like us. | |
| He's talking here to Andrew Gold. | |
| And Andrew Gold, if you didn't know, by looking at him, you would not know that he is not English. | |
| He looks very native. | |
| He looks British. | |
| And he personally feels himself to be British. | |
| He is Jewish, but he doesn't want to live in Israel. | |
| He doesn't speak Hebrew. | |
| He doesn't, he's not a part of the culture of that. | |
| And so he's very focused on culture because he doesn't want to agree to a position that excludes himself, which is understandable. | |
| I mean, everyone would want to have some sort of politics that actually advantages them rather than disadvantages them. | |
| And that brings us to really the sort of core premise that underlies Steve Law's position that I think is correct. | |
| I think, just a quick aside as well. | |
| I think he's way too harsh on Tommy. | |
| I think that there's the sort of online right narrative about Tommy is just too firm on the he is Israel first. | |
| I don't know. | |
| I think he views Israel as an ally because a lot of the Israelis are against Islam and he has been particularly affected by Islam because he grew up in Luton. | |
| And so I think he sees them as natural allies. | |
| I don't think that means he's not for England. | |
| I don't think he wants England to be swamped by foreigners. | |
| But by the same token, he doesn't just want arbitrary deportations of everyone who's not English. | |
| So it's one of those things where there is, I think, a through line that can be cut here. | |
| But I think Steve has to accept that he's not going to get everything that he's asking for. | |
| Just the political reality of it. | |
| I think it's just not going to happen. | |
| However, a lot of things can happen. | |
| And I think that a more level-headed position is to approach this with all of this in mind. | |
| Because people, when they're interviewing Steve, act as if he's like the prime minister in waiting or something. | |
| Like they take his position and go, oh my God, you know, you can't ask for that. | |
| That's horrible. | |
| It's like, well, he's not about to become prime minister tomorrow. | |
| In the same way that, you know, there's no point getting offended when Greta Thunberg or Zach Polanski demands X, Y, or Z. Like, it's not going to happen. | |
| So it's just a kind of fancy wish list for politics. | |
| And man, we could all make up fancy wish lists for politics. | |
| But what good does that do? | |
| If you're not actually going to get something done, then it means nothing, right? | |
| And if you taking too hard a line that will alienate people rather than bring them on board to your position is not, is damaging your prospects of building a coalition large enough to be able to take power in this country, then what's the point of it? | |
| If anything, it starts to look like vanity. | |
| It starts to look like you are just saying the most extreme thing you can say in order to be able to mark yourself out as being important, different, and kind of special. | |
| Now, like I said, I'm actually very sympathetic to Steve because I think that a lot of his critique is correct. | |
| He is right that the English own England collectively as their collective patrimony. | |
| And this is being taken away from us. | |
| I mean, it's entirely possible that at this point, as I record, England is only 65% English, which is obviously massively unacceptable. | |
| Because when I was born, England was north of 95% English. | |
| And when I grew up as a teenager, it was still well north of 90%. | |
| And now, in the last 10 or 15 years, that has just plummeted off a cliff. | |
| This has to stop. | |
| I want my children to grow up in an England that resembled the one I grew up in. | |
| Steve wants the same. | |
| And I think Andrew would want the same as well. | |
| So it's not, I think there's any massive difference there. | |
| It's just that Steve is acting or he's adopting positions that are just a bit too hard line. | |
| And so what is it that he's actually asking for? | |
| What he's actually asking for, and this is a very reasonable thing, is demographic security. | |
| Now, in most of the times and eras throughout history, a people with a nation, a nation state, a country, didn't really have to ask for demographic security. | |
| That was kind of given. | |
| That was the point in having a state of your own, is that this was the state for your people. | |
| There would probably be some small number of minorities, but this is a normal thing throughout all of human history that we have decided is not appropriate for the modern world. | |
| Well, I'm sorry, I don't agree with that. | |
| I don't agree with modernity. | |
| And so the issue of bringing it back to Israel, well, Israel is specifically designed to give the Jewish people demographic security and provide a government that acts in the interests of the demographic that is, that the country is for. | |
| And it's not wrong that we should have the same for the English in England, especially given the state of the country as it is now. | |
| We actually do deserve this. | |
| We do have an obligation to pass this on to our children. | |
| And the fact that we have somehow forgotten this is not going to be forgiven easily by the generations that come after us. | |
| We should be aiming for demographic security. | |
| And I think that's something that Steve Laws, Andrew Gold, Tommy Robinson, you know, even like, you know, minorities in Britain can agree with, actually. | |
| Like when you, as a minority, you know, your parents came here 30, 40 years ago, whatever it was, did you expect the country to be run by the English? | |
| The answer is yes, right? | |
| You expected there to be English police, English politicians, English officials, English institutions, and to have those all replaced. | |
| Well, are you sure that's better than where you came from? | |
| Are you sure this is a better alternative? | |
| Is the NHS running better now than it did back when your parents came here, right? | |
| There are all these sort of questions. | |
| I think even minorities would say, Yeah, actually, I think it's probably better the English are running England and maintain the demographic majority in order so that we can have the advantageous culture of the English that we expected to be here. | |
| For example, we wanted fair play, the rule of law, what we call British values now. | |
| Well, these are all predicated on a certain kind of demographic homogeneity that almost everyone will agree with them because they just feel natural to the British, in particular the English. | |
| Well, if that's gone, you get people like Steve. | |
| And Steve comes off throughout this as quite nervous. | |
| And honestly, I'm not surprised because a lot of the conversations he'll have are about portraying him as a bad person for wanting this. | |
| But the thing is, he's not a bad person for wanting this, he's just afraid, and rightly so, because the evidence is all around us. | |
| There is something wrong that we have to arrest now. | |
| And if we don't, then it will be unrecoverable in the future. | |
| So he's not wrong to be afraid. | |
| We just need to have a more sensible and palatable way of approaching this, I think. | |
| And the issue is, as I said, the concern for demographic security. | |
| Now, this is a totally reasonable concern, but this doesn't mean that we have to get rid of every single non-English person from England. | |
| That's actually not that reasonable. | |
| And actually, it kind of looks quite tyrannical and barbaric. | |
| So, the issue here to get a practical political result is to find a through line that actually achieves the job without making the country seem disgraced, right? | |
| Because I think that's what a lot of people are trying to avoid here. | |
| And that doesn't just alienate a bunch of people who are otherwise on our side, basically, on the side of the English when it comes to this. | |
| I'm sure Andrew Gold would rather live in a majority English country, but I also think he doesn't want to be kicked out, which is fair enough. | |
| And so, I think the issue is that we just highlight and stipulate certain communities who just ought not to be here. | |
| Like the Boris wave, none of them should be here. | |
| They can all just, I mean, they've been here less than five years and they came here because Boris wanted the Financial Times to speak well of him. | |
| They can just have their visas revoked. | |
| No, go home. | |
| You're just going home. | |
| Just, you know, send them home. | |
| Another great way of incentivizing millions to go home is just stop paying foreigners' benefits. | |
| Stop giving them access to the NHS. | |
| Stop giving them social housing. | |
| Stop giving them free money. | |
| Stop giving them advantages in the workplaces. | |
| And they'll just go home. | |
| They're only here because of these advantages. | |
| And these sort of non-invasive ways of removing those populations who shouldn't have been here to begin with are a great start. | |
| And this changes the demographic outflow for inflow to an outflow. | |
| And this, if you want to stop Steve Laws, this is the way to do it: actually solve the problem. | |
| So the British, in particular, the English, don't feel that they have a loss of control over their own nation. | |
| So they feel that they have that demographic security. | |
| And we should have that. | |
| We deserve it. | |
| This is our country. | |
| This is, it belongs to us. | |
| So I'm sorry if that means that a bunch of people who shouldn't be here go home, but that's happened to us before. | |
| I mean, that's what the Indians did upon decolonization within living memory. | |
| I mean, people like Joanna Lumley were born in India, and yet they were like, oh, no, she's British, out. | |
| And you've got the same in North Africa with the French, et cetera, et cetera. | |
| These things happen, and they have happened in living memory, and they're done because people know to which group they belong. | |
| And I think the time is coming that something like that will happen. | |
| But I also don't think that we should just be like, right, every non-white face out, right? | |
| I think that's too extreme. | |
| I don't think the British public will agree with it. | |
| And we might only get one shot at actually getting this kind of remigratory result. | |
| And having it approached from the most extreme position you can take, I think is far less persuasive. | |
| And moreover, I think that while Steve Laws has sort of ideologically persuaded himself, no, the only way to fix this, to save England, is every single foreigner gone. | |
| Well, I don't think that's true, right? | |
| I think that if we were to send back, you know, 10 million foreigners tomorrow, the difference on the high streets would just be immense. | |
| You'd suddenly realize, oh, right, this is an English country. | |
| Actually, this is the way that things were. | |
| And honestly, you would be returning to 1990s levels. | |
| Now, that's not to say that every single foreigner has to go, of course. | |
| I mean, you know, there are still going to be more than that. | |
| But the point is, it would give us a sense of demographic security. | |
| And I think that's what the actual demand that is being made by the right in Britain and in America as well. | |
| That's the fundamental demand that's being made. | |
| And it's got a kind of moral truth to it. | |
| Yes, the natives of a country should be able to possess that kind of demographic security. | |
| And it's wrong to take it away from them. | |
| What's been done to us is wrong. | |
| It is morally inappropriate. | |
| It's offensive. | |
| It's horrific. | |
| And it's caused so much suffering. | |
| And you're trying to take away from us something that can never be brought back. | |
| So it's got to be considered unacceptable for that as an outcome to come into being. | |
| And I think that's as clear as it can be made without saying all black people, all brown people, or Asian people, or Jewish people. | |
| Because I don't think that's necessary. | |
| I don't think that's necessary. |