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June 1, 2019 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
15:52
Debating Liberal Democrat Protesters in #Exeter
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Time Text
Excuse me!
I'm interested in standing up to racism.
Where do I begin?
I'm interested in standing up to racism.
Hello, I'm an individualist, and I don't believe that people should be judged by their skin colour.
Is that against racism?
No, I'm...
Would you like to come over a little bit?
Okay.
No, no, that's fine.
I wouldn't.
No, I'm just here today because the things that I've heard that you've said and seen on the TV, I find them very offensive to women.
Where did you have that?
And I don't like you coming to Exeter and saying them all again or that being given platform.
I'm really sort of shocked and disgusted at UKIP.
It's on YouTube, it's on the TV, it's in the papers.
Really?
Was it on my channel?
No, I don't follow your channel.
Right, so you don't know if I've actually said it or why I was saying anything, right?
Are you denying it?
I'm saying that these things have been taken out of context.
Is context important to you?
Well, it is, right?
It is important.
And you've heard things taken out of context.
You couldn't tell me the origin of them.
You probably can't even tell me where you've heard them.
But you've been stirred up by the media to come out and talk to someone you don't know anything about, right?
I wouldn't say that.
But it is true, isn't it?
I mean, like, for example, I'm an English individualist, right?
So I think that people shouldn't be judged by their skin colour or their gender or their creed or any personal factors that are beyond their control.
I think that the things you should be judged on are the things you have agency over, because that's how you can determine how you're a good person.
You can show your virtue through right action.
Do you think it's a good thing for women to take a role in public life?
I think it's a good thing for women to have self-determination.
So if women want to take a role in public life, that option should be there.
If women wish not to take a role in public life, that option should also be there.
And I don't think that women should be shamed for either choice.
Do you think you were shaming people?
Do you think you were shaming Jess Phillips?
Yes.
Why?
Because she was in public life?
No, because she was acting.
Hang on, excuse me, calm down, calm down.
Because she was actively blocking a debate on men's suicide.
It's the number one killer of men under 45.
I think it's an important issue to have tabled.
And she was actively laughing at the idea of discussing it.
But making a joke like that about her on such a public platform, what effect do you think that has on the willingness of 50% of the population to take part in public life?
Now, this is the same thing.
What do you think you are doing?
This is exactly the sort of thing I want to talk about.
And this is why I really detest identity politics.
Because you now have just politicized all of the women in this country.
You are saying that you get to determine what their politics are like.
I mean, there are women over here who support me, who do not agree with you.
But no, but you have laid claim to them on the basis of their identity.
You've robbed them of their agency.
And you are now telling them that you know what they think.
That's why identity politics is so pernicious.
It erases the distinction between the public and the private life because they're never not women.
They're always women.
They don't get to decide when they're politicized.
That's why I want party politics to identity politics.
Does making rape jokes make it harder or easier for women to participate on pub platforms?
Whatever that platform is, I'm not preaching.
I don't think it changes the difficulty.
And if we actually look at where most of the insults towards women come from, they come from other women.
Really?
Yes.
Studies show this.
A recent study also shows.
I find that.
I find that ridiculous.
No, but the studies show it.
I find that, sorry, that is just, that is just, well, show me your source material.
Well, I can do it.
It's actually on my Facebook page right now.
And do you know who actually gets the most harassment on social media?
Is absolutely bongo.
I know it's not what you want to hear, but it is what's true.
I'll tell you who gets the most harassment.
No, you won't.
You don't know.
Black women in public.
That's not true.
Do you know who gets the most harassment on Twitter?
Right?
No, it absolutely is not true.
So there was a study done recently.
I've posted it to my Facebook page.
Anyone can go on my Facebook page and pull up the graph if they'd like to bring it over and show.
It's white conservative men who get the most harassment on Twitter.
Labour women are actually, I think, it's about fifth or sixth down the list of people who get most harassment.
And listen, run in the world.
Well, this is what the study shows.
Are you against science?
I'm against the misuse of statistics.
I promise I'll have a look at it, but I find it, I just find that incredible.
Yes.
I do find that incredible.
It's because you're being manipulated by the media, man.
Oh.
No, you absolutely, you didn't know anything about me.
You don't know anything about the subject, but you are angry because they've put something in your face they know that will make you angry.
I know some of the things that you've said.
Well, you don't know the context.
For example, are you denying that you've made comments which are, I suppose, anti-Semitic is a shorthand term for Nazis.
And what's your definition of Nazi?
You're right.
A national socialist, someone who is a racial collectivist for white people.
They hate Jews, they hate black people, they hate Muslims.
That's what a Nazi is, in my opinion.
You deny that that would describe you?
Of course.
I'm an English liberal.
I mean, I just explained why I'm an individualist.
And I think I made a very cogent reason, cogent argument for that.
I mean, it seems like it seems deeply unfair to politicise people on the basis of arbitrary characteristics, like you tried to do with women just a minute ago.
I did not.
Yes, you did.
You said 50% of the country would be upset.
Well, no, they're not.
There are women who are not upset at all.
I didn't.
What I said, quite precisely, was: do you think that the comments you have made make it harder or easier for women to participate fully in public life?
Yeah, I don't think it changes the difficulty.
So don't twist around what I say.
Well, I don't think it changes the difficulty.
You don't.
No.
You've got no evidence to suggest that.
I do.
Speaking as a woman, I do think it makes it harder.
Anyhow, does somebody else want to have an argument with this?
I would love to speak to a Liberal Democrat and hear how.
But can I just finish by saying I don't usually protest about anything.
I'm not that sort of person, but I just find it so offensive.
That's why I've come out today.
Why do you not blame them?
Let me tell you.
I didn't put that in your face.
They put that in your face.
You've put yourself in your face, in my face, by coming to Exeter.
And I regret that enough to make me come out and protest.
And you can tell I'm not that sort of person.
Anyway, let somebody else have a talk.
Right, so the left-wing opinion is: build a wall around Exeter.
Right, hello.
Can we get a bit of space?
So you're free to come in.
Okay, what's your name, sir?
My name is.
Actually, I don't feel the need to say my name because it might lead to your followers attacking me.
Well, I'm worried about your followers attacking me too, but they know my name.
If you have a hundred of them, you don't know what you're saying.
If you want to post them.
Oh, thank you.
Keep that a bit there.
Just that.
So, my question is: you're running to be a member of the European Parliament.
Yes.
Who is the current President of the European Parliament?
Is it Tusk?
No.
That's the Council, isn't it?
Yep.
I'd have to look it up.
Why do you think you're qualified to run for an institution you don't know the basic facts about it?
Well, that's just one basic fact.
Who creates legislation for the European Parliament?
The Commission who writes legislation in the Parliament.
Do you vote for anyone in the Commission?
Well, the Parliament can choose not to vote.
You don't approve, do you?
Yeah, but you answer my question.
You don't vote for those people, do you?
You vote for the civil service who creates people.
Oh, see, here we go.
They start losing the argument.
No.
And there we go.
But you know you don't get to vote for those people, do you?
Thank you.
I would like to.
Also, thank you on behalf of the Remain parties because every vote for UKIP is a vote away from the Brexit party and you split the Brexit vote which means less Brexit supporting MEPs in Brussels.
Well I feel that way about change UK and Labour frankly.
You're doing a fantastic job for splitting the Brexit vote.
So are you?
So my question is that you should vote for Nigel Farage.
I'm sorry?
Why would anyone vote UKIP when they could vote for Nigel Farage?
There are actually loads of good reasons.
UKIP's an actual party.
We're actually Democratic.
We're not just a dictatorship like Nigel Farage.
But not only that.
I mean, you've seen the members of the Brexit.
Well, the members, the supporters of the Brexit party.
George Galloway, Anne Whittaken.
What kind of manifesto do you think is going to keep that party together?
It's not going to stay, is it?
But UKIP actually has a coherent manifesto.
One of the things they also talk about, liberal values.
You're a Liberal Democrat, is that correct?
What's liberalism about?
Liberalism is about people being free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.
And I would argue that your comments are based on hurting others.
Well, no, that's me being free to do what I want.
I mean, who can be hurt by a word?
Yes, but it's very clear.
The exception is hurting others.
And I would argue that your comments, whatever purpose you make them for, also do hurt others.
Well, where's the damage?
How many casualties?
Well, there were several in New Zealand which were inspired by comments made by people like you around the world.
That's not true at all.
You don't know anything about the Christjur shooting, do you, sir?
Did you read his manifesto?
I know the Australian government.
Did you read his manifesto?
No, I don't believe it.
And you don't know what you're talking about.
I know that your guest was banned from Australia.
My who?
Your guest who's coming later was banned from Australia for being overly supportive of it.
No, he wasn't.
Then why the Australian government?
He was banned from Australia before it happened.
The Australian government isn't a left-wing government.
Why did they ban him?
I don't know.
You'd have to ask them.
I mean, when he gets it, maybe you can ask him by yourself.
But no, my fundamental...
So I still don't think you've answered my question.
If your overwhelming priority is Brexit, why wouldn't you vote for a party that's first in the polls?
Why would you vote for a party that's at 4% in the polls?
Because I'll be voting for my own convictions.
And I think everyone else should be voting along their convictions.
For example, what's Nigel Farage going to do about political correctness or free speech or radical Islam or any of these other issues that English identity is an important one.
What do you think about English identity?
Do you think the English are a people or not?
I think that it's unfair that Scotland and Wales have devolved parliaments and England doesn't.
And I think that an English devolved parliament would be good, but I don't think that you're the answer to that, because you don't actually have any ideas for England.
How do you know?
Have you read our manifesto?
How would you solve?
Have you read our manifesto?
No.
Then don't tell me what you think.
You don't know anything about that, do you?
How would you...
I mean, the UKIP manifesto actually talks about English identity and a devolved parliament for England.
That's actually a really good point, and I'm really glad you brought it up.
What sort of things should we talk about regarding English identity?
Because I think that England is in an identity crisis at the moment.
I mean, the Scots and the Welsh and the Irish, they know who they are.
They're very confident.
They've got their national flags everywhere.
Obviously, I don't see a single English flag around here.
Do you think that's wrong?
I think that your policies don't actually do anything.
You don't know what our policies are.
You already said that.
Well, I know that you don't have policies because you're not in any way political.
I've got very, very important policies.
You're a YouTuber.
I want us to leave the European policy.
You don't know who the president of the institution is.
I'll look it up on Wikipedia.
That's a totally minor issue.
But I think that we should leave Brexit now.
Leave the European Union now.
I agree with you.
Well, we should have a hard leave.
Just leave.
Just leave.
That's what we should do.
How would you make sure that there isn't conflict on the Irish border?
Because I am also an IPCO.
We won't put up a border.
If the European Union wants to put up a border, we can't stop them, but that would be the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.
What do you think?
I think that that would create a massive smugglers zone on the Irish border.
It's open now.
But the external border isn't.
The external border of the customs union currently as a whole.
If you had an unpolice border on the Irish border, then you would create a massive smugglers zone for things like chlorinated chicken to come into the rest of the world.
What's wrong with chlorinated chicken?
People don't like it.
Yeah, but that's the only thing, isn't it?
People don't like the word.
It sounds bad.
You don't know anything about chlorinated chicken, do you?
I thought you were democratic, and what people didn't like you would help protect them from.
Well, I thought you were in favour of science.
I am.
Why?
Just because people don't like a lot of things, but that doesn't mean that we should do those things.
No, it's not poison.
It's not poison.
Yeah, but the chlorine is washed off of the chicken.
It's an antibacterial wash that goes over it and then it's rinsed off so it's safe for consumption.
Have you ever been to America?
I lived there for nine years.
Yeah, so you've eaten American chicken?
Yes, it was not as good as a chicken here.
Well, you didn't die, did you?
No, but my health was probably negatively.
You don't know that.
Is there anything else you'd like to say, sir?
Well, no, really.
My main question was: do you know who is the president of the European Parliament?
Okay, let me get my phone out and I'll check for you.
Shall I do that?
But the point is, you're not prepared.
You're not prepared to talk about it.
I'm not prepared to tell you what I can just easily find on Wikipedia, but I am prepared to talk about some very important issues that I think go beyond merely looking up information on Wikipedia.
What's your policy on climate?
Actually, I'd really like to...
I don't know about, like...
I mean, saying on climate is a bit broad, but I'm really very much in favour of banning plastic bags and plastic straws.
I think that would be a real bonus to the environment.
I think it'd be, because I am genuinely concerned about the microplastics, and it seems like a relatively unobtrusive use of government power in order to help clean up the environment.
And I'd also like to see nuclear power being put to the fore.
I think that we need more nuclear power stations.
What do you think?
So what's your policy on free speech, if you're liberals?
How do you feel about free speech?
Free speech as long as it doesn't hurt others than usual.
So you're not for free speech?
I'm basing this on John Stuart Mill, one of the greatest writers on Liberty, who said people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt others.
Yeah, but speech can't hurt you.
Speech can, absolutely.
How many casualties have you ever seen from someone speaking?
Well, when people speak on a podium, it leads to acts of violence.
Acts of violence are not speech, though, sir.
Yes, but one derives from the other.
Yeah, but who's responsible for this?
All the politicians do is speak, and yet it's undeniable that politics kill people.
You can kill people with a speech very easily.
No, you kill people with violence, and the people taking action are the ones responsible.
They're inspired by speech.
Yeah, but those people are responsible for their own actions, are they not?
Or are they not agents of their own?
Are they just automatons?
Do they walk around doing exactly as they're commanded?
No, they don't walk around doing what they're doing.
So they are responsible for the things that they're doing.
They're influenced by lies.
I'm sorry?
But they are influenced by lies.
Yeah, but they're still rational thinking beings.
And you guys have lied enough, so, you know, let's not point fingers.
How about that?
Sorry.
So, free speech, with caveats to how you feel.
That's how it is, right?
No, I believe in free speech, but I think you're just using free speech for any productive endeavor.
I think this has been very productive, actually.
I don't think anyone else would have got all you guys out here whining about a tweet.
Maybe Donald Trump, actually.
Do you not think there are more important things to worry about than my tweets?
I think that they make you disqualify to be a candidate.
Yeah, but that's tyrannical.
That's not very liberal, is it?
Your feelings are.
You make your living on social media and so social media, what you do on social media is important.
I'm sorry, say again?
Because you make your living on social media.
How you spend your life is social media.
And that makes what you do and say on social media important.
Yes, thank you.
I appreciate that.
And would you say that you stand up for Christian values?
I stand for.
Would you say you stand for Christian values?
No, liberal values.
You could argue that liberal values have been inspired by Christian values.
Oh, fair enough.
Sorry, yeah, you've got to speak throwing me into the thing.
But you could say that it was inspired by Britain's Christian heritage, certainly.
Because I'm a Christian and I know that the foremost teaching of Jesus is that you should love your neighbour.
Can you explain how in your living you have in any way endeavoured to love your neighbour and not?
I'm not a Christian.
Fair enough.
I reckon I've more or less exhausted my questions, so I'd just like to thank you again on behalf of the Lib Dan for splitting the Brexit vote and meaning less than a year.
Thank you for splitting the remain vote.
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