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March 1, 2016 - Sargon of Akkad - Carl Benjamin
24:46
Trump or Sanders？
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Okay, so I'm talking with Voltaire's Ghost and Arch Warhammer about why I support Bernie Sanders over Donald Trump.
Hey guys, thanks for joining me.
Hi.
So in my opinion, the US political system is clearly fucked.
If Donald Trump is the leading Republican candidate and Bernie Sanders is like tied with Hillary Clinton roughly, for the Democrats, then I think it demonstrates a real issue with the system itself.
And I tend to look at all of the US politicians.
If I were to rate them on a scale of one to ten, most of the corporate candidates would be zero.
Hillary would be negative one.
Donald Trump would be one and Bernie Sanders would be two.
And for me, Bernie Sanders would only be two because I really doubt he's going to get a lot done.
I think he'll ask for radical things that will get blocked by Congress.
And I don't think he's got the spine for executive orders because of the sort of lack of leadership ability he demonstrated with the Black Lives Matter folks.
What do you guys think of that?
Yeah, I think that's an interesting perspective.
For those of us liberally minded, a lot of this now I think is about damage control.
Donald Trump must not be president.
I don't see the guy adding anything.
He has no decent ideas.
He can point to problems occasionally, but has no solutions.
He's a joke.
Bernie Sanders is anti-establishment.
And that's a lot of the reason why people support Trump is he represents something very similar.
And the argument could certainly be made that the political system in America needs a shake-up that something like a Sanders would bring to it.
So I understand that line of reasoning.
Yeah, I mean, my issue is I don't want Hillary because the system, it's the corporate influence on the system that's a real problem.
And this is exemplified in Hillary, you know?
And it's the system that's producing candidates like Sanders and Trump rather than more sort of rational politicians who are allowed to address the same issues on either side.
Let me play devil's advocate for a moment then, because I'm under the impression that if Hillary Clinton were to become president, it would certainly be a vote for the establishment, but it would also be a vote for essentially another Obama.
And I have some good things to say about his presidency and some bad things.
But what it might do is if you put Hillary in charge for four years, is give the Republicans and the Democrats time to get their act together.
What do you make of that?
Well, you know, I actually think it might make things worse.
Because I'm genuinely, I mean, there's a hell of a lot of pressure built up under, you know, the establishment, and it's pushing up, which is why we've got Sanders and Trump doing what they're doing.
Sanders and Trump aren't that bad.
You know, what they're advocating for isn't, it could be worse.
You know, there are definitely worse positions along their line of reasoning.
You know, Trump saying only not, you know, don't allow Muslims in, build a wall.
I mean, you know, it's not sort of a positive step forward, in my opinion, but it's definitely not as damaging as it could be.
And I'm sure, you know, the reforms that Sanders wants probably aren't as radical as could be suggested.
And the thing is, you know, in another four to eight years' time, if this pressure doesn't get released with another Hillary, another Barack Obama, if this pressure doesn't get released, then the next time candidates are, you know, coming to be something bolstered up by the people who aren't being represented, they could be a hell of a lot worse and they might have a hell of a lot more support.
That's a really good point, actually, because I'm with you on this.
I would not want another Hillary because I think it would be another safe vote in a situation where we don't need a safe vote.
We really need somebody to shake things up.
And again, like you said, Trump and Sanders, despite all of the fleck they're getting, are they really that extreme?
Not really.
Like, okay, Trump wants to build a wall, okay?
So what?
We're already building walls in Europe.
In fact, we have already finished building walls in Macedonia.
And surprisingly enough, the Nazis haven't taken over.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't really think it would be that big of a thing.
It could be worse, but it's not my preferred candidate because I don't think Trump is actually going to fail to build a wall if he gets into power.
I mean, I don't really know how he's going to do it, but I suspect that it's been such a sort of talking point of his.
All he'll do is go on about it.
And eventually, the bang on the protesting or whatever, it'll get too much.
It'll become acceptable to protest for this because it was a campaign promise, you know?
And eventually, he'll probably end up getting it done just, I don't know, through some sort of executive action or something.
But Sanders, I don't see him being able to get anything done.
I don't think he's got the spine.
I certainly think Congress will give him a run for his money, but the important thing to note, we're not aware of who his running mate will be yet.
That's true.
And if he selects somebody with a lot more backbone than himself, someone who's younger with a bit of spunk to them, that might shake things up a bit.
Possibly, but I think the point, I mean, it might well be, I'm not saying this is any kind of guarantee or anything like that.
I just, if, you know, calculating it from the personalities of the men, I think Sanders is capable of less extreme damage.
And I think Sanders is much more likely to end drone strikes and things like this.
You know, I actually, I tweeted Donald Trump, Ego N drone strikes.
Obviously, I ain't gonna reply, but it's the only way I had of even vaguely contacting him to address the issue, you know.
But I think, you know, Sanders probably would end drone strikes, whereas, I mean, Trump might as well, but, you know, I would put my money on Sanders doing it, you know?
And Americans seem a lot more worried about, like, oh, but he's going to bring socialism to our country.
Well, I would prefer you to have socialism than you drone striking anywhere else, you know?
If that's the sacrifice, then I'm willing to make it, you know.
I live in a slightly socialist country or partially socialist, and it's not the end of the world, you know.
For someone who lives in a complete socialist country, I will agree.
Yeah, you know, it's not like it's a death sentence, for fuck's sake.
And unlike drone strikes under the establishment, which actually are, you know, and these have a huge knock-on effect as well, because obviously it just engenders hatred for the West all around the world, you know?
And it gives Islamists fucking ammunition against us.
It gives them a reason to recruit people, you know, people who have died and lost families.
They can join something.
Something is right.
You can help us fight the East Less.
There are a lot of problems caused by our foreign policy.
And I'm not saying that Islam is in any way blameless.
There was plenty of Islamic terrorism before 9-11, all that sort of nonsense.
But adding to it isn't helping.
It's something that can actually change.
the system really needs to change it's like I get the feeling that four years of Bernie Sanders failing to do anything and like well mine Sorry, go on.
My problem with that is I think that America and Europe and the West in general have a right to defend themselves against ISIS.
And my concern would be with the Sanders presidency is that you're right, he may stop drone strikes, but what is he going to do that's positive to defeat that organization?
Is he going to actually, because it's a question of strategy, perhaps.
Maybe the drone strikes aren't the best thing to be doing, but what will he put on the table as a response to that?
I have no idea what Sanders is putting on the table in response to not drone striking, but I don't think...
I suspect it's don't do anything.
I suspect it's that.
Possibly.
But to be honest with you, I think that not doing anything is more beneficial than bombing at this point.
I really, I honestly think that if bombs could solve the problems in the Middle East, it would have been solved by now.
I just don't see how many more people we can bomb, you know?
Well, we're providing cover, of course, for the Kurdish forces and our allies in the region.
That's a help.
Fingers crossed that that does help.
But the thing is, a lot of these drone strikes have happened in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
So it's not like if they were localized to ISIS, then sure, I'd be fine with that.
This is why I'm not going after Russia being like, oh, Russia's bombing.
They're bombing fucking rebels in the Middle East.
Yes, I certainly think the tactics need to be readdressed.
But I don't feel confident that Sanders is the person to do that.
I'm not saying Donald Trump is either, by the way.
Well, yeah, no, no, I didn't assume that you were.
And the thing is, Sanders probably isn't the person to do that.
But again, I think that, you know, the problem, if it goes on, it's not like it's going to be over in four years anyway.
And a four-year sort of Sanders presidency, I think, could shift the public dialogue to be addressing why people have lost faith in the system.
You know, if I would actually genuinely like it to come down to Trump and Sanders, because then you wouldn't have a single fucking establishment figure running, and then they would have to accept that politicians are no longer serving the people who are supposed to be voting for them.
It could not be more out in the open.
That would be it.
Everyone would have to say to themselves, right, okay, you know, the politicians represent the corporate interests.
They are the corporate fucking candidates.
These are not the corporate candidates, and the corporations are not the majority of voters.
So, you know, what they want is much less relevant than the people who have actually gone out of their way to find people who don't represent that, you know?
And so I think that changing the public dialogue to that, you know, and that then necessitates reform of the system, you know?
And I think that the system is in dire need of reform.
What do you guys think?
I would personally, I think I actually like Trump more than Sanders simply because I think it is.
I think it's not only in dire need, I think it's vitally important at this point.
I think Sanders might, like you said, he might bring some more focus onto it.
But I think it's time to go all the way and get a proper crazy in the White House just to freak people out properly.
I'm not even necessarily opposed to that argument, man.
I mean, like, literally sort of like asking for it.
Just being like, okay, well, you wanted it.
Here you go.
You know, I'm not going to gainst that, you know.
But if it was down to my personal preference, I'd prefer Sanders first.
But, I mean, if it came down to Trump and Hillary, I'd want Trump.
Oh, definitely.
Because, first of all, Hillary, I think, will do more damage than good, simply because he's probably the most corporate candidate we've had in America.
She could not be more of a career politician.
It's incredible.
It's true.
You're essentially voting for Goldman Sachs if you vote for her.
But do you think that Sanders will beat her to the nomination?
Do you feel that in your bones?
I honestly don't know.
I mean, as far as I was aware, they were fairly tied last time I looked.
I haven't checked recently, though, to be honest.
I hope he does.
Anyone over Hillary, Jesus.
I do believe that the next big start, big part of the election is about to begin today, actually, and which we're going to have far more solid data on who is ahead, so to say, after today and over the next few days.
I really hope so.
But the thing is, I tell you what, it really annoyed me how the left is trying to approach the Trump problem.
It's just a really, it's a silly, silly.
Well, they're doing the very thing that he's complaining that they're doing.
Yeah.
They're calling him names.
But they're attempting to bully him, which is going to work.
I know, he's already the underdog.
You know, he's been attacked non-stop by everyone on the right, you know.
And only now he's starting to get endorsements from the right, and then the left's like, right, we're going to attack him.
He's just going to get more endorsements, you know, he's, he's, and it's too late for that.
You know, the.
The best thing they could do now would be to, I think, can he be stopped?
I don't know.
But if I was campaigning against him, I would be dismissive.
I would be saying things like, look, you know, you're a rich boy, Donald.
You're somebody who has essentially had their own way their entire life.
You've got nothing really of substance to say, why don't you shut up?
You know, I would not be trying to fight fire with fire in exactly the same way by picking on the fact that he had to change his name to avoid persecution.
That's ridiculous.
It's absurd, and it allows him to play the victim.
And he's already been the victim of the establishment attacking him anyway.
So it just plays into that narrative.
You could literally crucify him on what he's going to do with ISIS.
What are you going to do about drone strikes, Donald?
Are you going tocel drone strikes?
What are you going to do about ISIS?
And he'd come up with some fucking thing that's obviously not going to work.
And you could just be like, well, that's what we've been doing for 10 years or whatever.
He's bombed them.
Okay, brilliant.
Boots on the ground.
Well, that didn't help, did it?
Okay, boots on the ground might help.
I don't know.
I think there's an argument for that.
I wouldn't.
Yeah, I actually do think that.
I think that.
I wouldn't support full-scale invasion, but we do have very few troops that are actually helping the forces at the moment.
But yeah.
On that note, I actually, I have a few American friends, and what they've told me is that the US is starting to get tired of exactly that solution.
A lot of them are starting to be grumbling about the Europe, United Nations, taking more of a stance on this.
Because so far, pretty much the Americans have been the only ones doing this.
And everyone's been asking them, like, we need boots on the ground, we need security, we need control of the region.
And the Americans have pretty much been footing the entire bill.
And I think the Americans are starting to get really sick of that, especially considering that whenever NATO has tried to do this, we've usually made a rather terrible job of it.
Yeah.
And the problem Europe's having is obviously, you know, it's not growing economically.
And we've got millions of migrants that are probably costing a fortune.
So, I mean, you know, it's not like Europe has got buckets of money to spare on imperial ventures overseas either.
So, I mean, it's a real...
Yeah, we don't have the will anyway.
No.
To be honest.
There are very few of us out there that would actually put our name to something like that.
Don't have the will, don't have the money.
Yeah, it really is.
Things need to get worse before we can really get better, apparently.
But that's the thing in America as well.
I think it's the same.
And, you know, I just think that Sanders could do the minimum damage and still facilitate a major reform of the system.
That was just my opinion.
That's why I would say Sanders.
But if Strike gets in, it's not the end of the world.
Striking the balance there is the key to the argument, though, isn't it?
Because you want him to reform or cause a shake-up to a certain degree, but you don't want him to make America socialist.
Well, I mean, like I said, I'm not that bothered about America becoming socialist.
I mean, I'm sure that I'm personally for the democratic legitimacy of the system.
So if the people vote, if he's going to propose things, it's going to be processed.
If the system rejects it, the system rejects it.
I mean, it's not a good system.
It does need reform.
But at least I don't think necessarily it's my position to be dictatorial about that.
It's for them to end up deciding that for themselves.
But I think that just Sanders is going to do the least damage in the process of kick-starting that sort of public narrative.
Which is certainly an interesting idea, because again, personally, I would like Trump just because I think they are going to require a far larger kick to the rear than Sanders might provide.
But then again, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about American politics as you two are, so I might be completely wrong on that.
I'm only as knowledgeable as people have informed me.
Yeah, we're outsiders on this, to be fair.
It's just, in fact, the discussion is quite interesting because none of us have a particular dog in the fight, and we are genuinely trying to objectively analyze this, but we could be getting all kinds of things wrong.
And it'll be interesting to hear what the Americans that listen to your podcast or your show have to say about it.
Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely interested in reading the comments on this one, because I think that even the most hardened Trump supporter is surely going to be aware that they're a Trump supporter.
Surely they're supporting Trump because they want to see a change in the system, a major change in the system.
Because that's really what he is a symbol of.
But he's also a symbol of anti-progressivism, though.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
And that's what Sanders, Sanders is a progressive.
Yeah, but the system, you're right.
The system has been completely taken over by this sort of progressivism.
The sort of cultural space of what it's acceptable to discuss and whatnot.
And you're right.
Sanders is more of the same, but I think Donald Trump has pretty much put the cat out of the bag now anyway, hasn't he?
If someone called you a racist, what would you do?
I want to discuss Islam.
Oh, you're a racist.
Shut up.
Just shut up.
Okay, no, look, we're talking about the issues there, not fucking about races or anything like that.
Stop deflecting.
Let's actually have the conversation now.
I think we're at the point where we can actually address these issues without fear of, oh, Islamophobia.
No, no, shush, you sound ridiculous.
You know, just there would be no need for that.
So you're not worried that if Sanders were to become the president, that would legitimize a lot of the points that you've just spent denouncing?
I don't know.
I don't think it legitimizes criticism of Islam being Islamophobia.
I really don't.
Obviously, it wouldn't legitimize it intellectually, but I would be worried about a space that it could create politically and in terms of the media.
No, they've already got that.
And it's already been intellectually discredited.
This is what Sam Harris and fucking Bill Maher were doing with Ben Affleck.
Ben Affleck's become a joke now.
It's gross.
It's racist.
Oh, shut up, Ben.
Just shut up.
We're talking about serious issues that actually have to be discussed.
I mean, these are genuine ideas people hold that they don't have to hold and they need to be addressed.
And you're going, are you racist like a fucking moron?
Just stop it.
It's an interesting idea, though, because I was actually going to think of raising the same question that Bernie Sanders might make it extreme.
To take an extreme example, he might literally put into law the safe space or something absurdly crazy like that.
But we don't get that through anything.
Probably not, but the thing is, it's already kind of law in certain spaces in certain universities.
So it's like, how much damage could he possibly actually do?
Yeah, I can't see people agreeing to that, though.
I mean, people are pretty outraged about what's happening in universities.
I mean, Melissa Click was fired, you know?
True, after a very long and drawn-out period.
Like, it should be a fairly cut and dry situation for her.
It should, but, I mean, you know, the decisions are coming down at least on the right side.
So, you know, I don't think people would, you know, I don't think they'd be able to implement some sort of universal safe space laws or anything like that.
Surely not.
I mean, the thing is.
Best they plans at my men.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We keep saying, surely this couldn't possibly happen and the world keeps proving us.
Wrong.
That's true.
Surely Donald Trump won't be present.
Oh, look, he's the front runner.
So that's it.
I didn't think he'd get the nomination, and I think it's likely that he will now.
Yeah, and with Chris Christie dropping out and then endorsing him and what this is, like, fucking hell.
You know, isn't he like 49% or something in the latest one?
I don't know the numbers.
It's a lot, though.
I'm just going to quickly Google it.
Plus, his political opponents are pretty much doing everything in their power to help him, it seems.
Well, this is what stuns me about the whole response to him.
If you were smart on the Democratic side, or on the Republican side, for that matter, you'd steal a bit of his elixir, right?
What he's feeding on is people's disenfranchisement with the system and their abhorrence of political correctness.
You could take some of that power away from him by addressing those issues and being a little bit more straightforward in the way that you talk about issues.
And all of a sudden, he begins to melt away, just like the Wicked Witch.
You know, you could do that, but nobody does.
Well, that's what I was saying with the drone strikes.
You know, it's an actual issue.
You can actually, you know, and sensible people are going to be like, okay, Donald Trump doesn't really know what he's going to do now, you know?
But I think just attacking his name is ridiculous.
What?
It's pointless, too, because, again, it helps him.
He has made his entire career out of being the underdog, the normal guy running for president.
And they attack his name.
For fuck's sake, you have better ideas than that.
He's a multi-millionaire.
Use that.
Use his poor stance on political issues.
attack him with actual issues instead of going like, oh, you smell.
But that's the thing, John Oliver, John Oliver did, sorry, he did actually address that.
He was like, look, despite the fact that Trump is constantly either lying or just changing his mind, not even knowing he's lying something, it doesn't matter because it's the symbol of what he is.
He's the resistance to the PC culture, you know?
And I honestly think this is why Cruz was starting to gain a bit of traction because he started doing something similar.
He was like, I speak my mind and all that.
It didn't come across quite as sincerely as Trump, but I mean, it was a good try, you know?
It's an interesting system, the American electoral system.
It's confusing for a European because it seems almost as much of a show as an election.
Well, we have vibrations of the same sort of sentiment occurring in the UK right now.
We have people like Jeremy Corbyn on the left and Nigel Farage on the right, who are very principled, and they do come out and say exactly what they feel, and they've got a lot of popular support.
I think there's a, you know, it's sort of like where America begins, others follow.
We'll be getting more of it, I believe.
What with Boris Johnson as well?
Which chance is anti-EU for Brexit?
That was genuine like, wow.
Boris Johnson's a proper celebrity, you know.
He's popular.
He's the most popular politician in Britain.
Yes, and he's honestly very much like Donald Trump, you know.
He's not very good at political correctness, you know, even if he tries, he's not very good at it.
He's not.
But to be fair, he's very well educated and he has a lot of decent political ideas.
I'm not saying that he doesn't.
I'm just saying in that way, that they both speak before they think on a lot of subjects.
They're not constrained by exactly the political correctness.
Yeah, and I think that's good.
I think that it's good that we're finally at a place where these people are the popular people, you know, because at least they're speaking honestly, you know.
And I do think that's a good thing.
But, okay, is there anything else you think we should go over before I end this?
So just so I'm clear, You're supporting Sanders ultimately if he were to get the nomination, and that is to do with the best of a bad bunch, essentially.
Yeah, yeah.
But Bernie Sanders, being like the weakest of a bad bunch, really.
It's the fact that he's not going to do too much damage that I think is the case.
And the thing is, if it did come down to Hillary versus Trump, I would be in favour of Trump any day.
Anyone but Hillary.
Just anyone.
Hillary represents the system that has produced Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders.
And I don't want fucking a right-wing populist or a fucking left-wing communist to be the nominations.
They're awful nominations.
You know?
They're awful.
The fact that their system has produced these as serious contenders is my issue, you know?
But it's okay, well, do you want a shit sandwich or a shit fucking bagel?
You know?
Okay.
They're both covered in shit, really.
Yeah, exactly.
I don't know.
I mean, I guess I'll take the one that's easier to chew, you know?
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