Cody and Robert dismantle Jordan Peterson's new show, debunking his false claims that mass shooters are fatherless and that Japan copied only Prussian education. They expose unethical allegations regarding Peterson's past clinical practices and critique his misinterpretation of the "A Billion Wicked Thoughts" study on women's erotic preferences. The hosts reject his oversimplified views on the #MeToo movement and the aggression of saying "no," ultimately arguing that Peterson's analysis relies on factual errors and reductive psychology rather than evidence. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: nvidia/parakeet-tdt-0.6b-v2, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Insane Album Descriptions00:15:23
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Ah, Cody.
It's part two of this latest journey into the world of Jordan Peterson.
But first, let's talk about that Mighty Mighty Boss Tones album that they released in 2022 about the murder of George Floyd and then the protests that followed.
I can't believe you were not aware of this.
I had no, I had no idea.
It is stunning.
It is.
I mean, just the fact that it exists is just so beautiful and funny.
The fact that I think we can say the Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones are the whitest a band has ever been without being explicitly a neo-Nazi band.
Like, it can't be whiter than the Mighty Boss.
Yeah, no, they're like, they're a goose step and a shuffle away from.
Not that they're Nazis, but that it does not get more Caucasian.
And I would say if that is your, if you are the Mighty, Mighty Boss Tones watching the murder of this man and the protests that gripped the nation, perhaps the thing you should say is nothing.
Like maybe, you know, obviously, like, we'll make a statement that like, we support the protests or this was terrible, but you certainly shouldn't write an entire album about George Floyd.
That's just not a thing the world needs from the mighty, mighty boss tones.
Just, or even, you know, yeah, right, you know, an album that if you like looked really hard, you'd be like, is this about George Floyd?
Yeah, maybe if you're like you're doing a song, you know, on your sky album about how the police are bad, you could reference it.
That would be fine.
Swell has a long history of being anti-authoritarian.
You know, you know, like if, you know, and then pro some proceeds to charity or something like that, some cause.
I don't know, but this is wild.
I listened to, also, the song is called The Killing of Georgie, which I would say is not a great title.
It's so weird.
I listened to part three.
I have, I can't find part one or two anywhere, and I'm not buying that album.
Even just some of these lyrics, Georgie, please stay.
They took your breath away.
Yeah, what the?
That is an insane thing to write.
That is that, because again, the mighty, mighty boss tones, a lot of musicians to band.
A bunch of people were in a room when they handed those lyrics out.
And all of them had to be like, yes, this is a song we're all going to take part in.
They're going to make it.
They learned how it was.
They made it.
They made that into a music.
And they just let it happen to the world.
And no one stopped them.
And one assumes they did that 12 times to get a whole album out of it.
Yeah.
It is.
You know what?
So let's play a clip from this song for the listeners at home.
Give them 30 seconds.
Give them a tight 30.
I don't know.
Yeah, I was going to say the actual song just sounds like that one song.
All Mighty, Mighty Boss Tone songs sound the same.
They don't have the ability to make multiple ska sounds that sound different.
They're not real big fish.
No, no, no.
It even has that scream that the guy does in that other song.
By the way, Real Big Fish, you know how many albums they wrote about George Floyd?
Not a single one.
My guess was not a single one.
Because Real Big Fish understands that's not what America needs.
They don't need Real Big Fish weighing in on this.
You know, Godspeed Real Big Fish.
Credit to them.
But also, I would probably answer none to any band that you ask me about.
There are very few musicians whose specific take on this I need in the form of an album, right?
You know, Five Iron Frenzy, wonderful ska band, made a lot of statements about how the police are terrible in social media.
They didn't cut an album.
Didn't cut an album about it.
Because they knew, they knew.
We don't need that.
Nobody needs that.
At least one of them knew.
Maybe some of them were on board and had the idea, but one of them was like, ah, I don't know.
You got to hit the chorus.
You got to get it there.
There we go.
Skip ahead or no?
A little bit.
Give us some chorus.
Yeah.
And all against our will.
Cause wisdom through the heart.
Here we go.
Here we go.
He's laughing in there.
What I ask.
Who really cares?
Let the word go forth in this time and from this place.
To behold these truths.
To be self-evident.
Okay.
Awful lot.
I listened to it back in 2020, whenever it came out and was like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard.
And it is so, it is the most cringeworthy thing.
Like, it's one of the worst things I've ever heard.
It's so bad.
Even like, I have listened, Cody, I have listened to an entire discography of Blink 182 covers turned into Nazi anthems.
Oh my God.
Dozens of songs.
Dozens.
I have like 70 of them on my fucking hard drive.
Dozens of them.
And it was bad, but it didn't make me cringe like that.
It's just like, yeah, like every, even bullshit.
If you ignore the fact that this is about George Floyd and they call him Georgie the entire time.
Which, by the way, did anyone call him Georgie?
Was that ever his nickname?
You invent a nickname for a murder victim and then make an album about it?
Also, if like if you're doing like if you need two syllables because like melodically you need that extra syllable, George Floyd is his name.
Yeah, that's two.
You got two right there.
Yeah.
But maybe they wanted it to be a little more, you know, discreet, a little under the radar.
Like, oh, it's not definitely about George Floyd when clearly it is.
But even if you, if you remove it from that, from the context of what it's about, like, it's so awkward.
Like, do we hold these truths to be self-evident?
It's like a child's song.
It is like, it's just the schoolhouse rock, like, cadence, which, like, I'm sorry for insulting schoolhouse rock right now.
I didn't mean to.
No, schoolhouse rock, those songs generally worked.
Many of them are stuck in my head periodically.
Self-evident.
Like, what are you doing?
I'm going to pour back teen in my ears to try to get this out of my brain once we finish recording.
Also, if you play it back, listeners, the chorus is literally just, I've never had to knock on wood.
It's just that.
That's the only song they have.
It's the exact same tune.
God.
Because of the syllables and the beautiful lyricism that they've introduced.
Yes.
The perfect art that is God.
I can't.
This is, it's absolutely stunning.
That this would happen and that no one would stop it.
Like, morally, if you, if you, if you are ever around and your friends have a ska band and they attempt to make an album about the murder of a black man by the police, it is your moral responsibility to mace them until they stop.
You have, you have an ethical duty.
Or it's this, like, if you fail to do that, it's the same as like watching someone get kicked to death in the street and refusing to intervene.
Anyway, Cody.
Whatever it takes.
This is Behind the Bastards, a show about the mighty, mighty Bostones, history's greatest monsters.
Do you think Jordan Peterson's ever been able to enjoy a ska song?
Could you imagine him skanking?
I can because I've seen him cry about a bluegrass band he saw in Tennessee.
Well, yes.
Then I saw a video of him dancing to it.
And it's actually, it was good.
Like they were a good band.
And I'm about like a blueground.
Bluegrass or as we call it country ska.
Yeah, country ska.
Like, I got no issue with that kind of music.
It was a good band.
They did a good job.
But I think that any, like any music I think moves him, which is, you know, fine.
That's the most human thing I've ever heard about.
Exactly.
So I think he would skank it.
I think he would skank it.
I think he could really, I think he could really get down to, you know, that real big fish song, Beer?
What if you rewrote it to be about having a single sip of cider and then not sleeping for 30 days?
And then saying you didn't sleep for 200 days.
Like, let's be clear.
Well, this has been nine minutes of Cody and Robert talking about Sky.
Let's take off our bowling shoes and checkered hats.
There are a solid 11 people in our audience who were waiting for this for years.
And those 11 people are having the best day of their lives.
Everyone else has deleted us from their phones.
You're welcome to those people.
Sorry to everybody else.
Yeah.
So, Cody, when we last left off with Jordan Peterson in this episode, Jordy, please.
Jordy.
Jordy.
He was talking about how women are incapable of looking at relationships in anything other than like a cold, transactional way.
Now, the next thing Peterson does in this episode is stick his brain's dick into the problem of mass shootings.
Did you like that sentence, Cody?
You feel good about how I wrote that sentence?
I don't.
Hate it.
Did it take your breath away?
Oh, God.
Here's Jordan.
Thank goodness.
I think Warren Farrell wrote a book called The Boy Crisis, told me yesterday when I was talking to them, every single high school shooter was fatherless.
So, I mean, you know, that's a small sample of people, but society seems to be, let's say, degenerating into a more and more woke direction.
Oh.
So, Cody, I'm not going to look up his buddy Warren like I did his other friend because the claim that he's made there that mass shooters are always fatherless is complete horseshit.
And it's the easiest thing in the world to debunk.
I was going to look at like, and this is a thing that if you're a listener of this show and you're like, I actually like Jordan Peterson.
I don't know what you're doing here, but thanks for coming.
Anything he ever says, just be like, what?
It's always wrong.
100% of the time, it's at least a little wrong.
And this is a lot wrong.
Snopes has covered this, which makes it very easy to debunk.
There is a years-long right-wing media claim that mass shootings are committed by fatherless children.
This is to demonize single mothers.
It's just to demonize the fact that like the breakdown of the family and not, I don't know, the fact that like, look, I'm as pro-gun as they get, but it's the fact that any angry young person can purchase whatever gun they want, even if they have a history of domestic violence, with 60% of them do.
If you want to look at a thing that actually most mass shooters have in common, most of them have a history of violence towards women that doesn't stop them from acquiring a firearm.
Anyway, mass shooters and police.
Yes, and police, yes.
Who killed twice as many people as mass shooters in the United States, we should also note.
Anyway, the point of origin of this like right-wing sort of thing that like this is the problem is single mothers and not anything to do with guns or patriarchal violence or whatever.
The point of origin for this is an article in the Federalist in 2015, which was later picked up to act as evidence for a Fox News column.
It did not claim, this Federalist article does not claim, as Peterson does, that every mass shooter is fatherless.
Quote, on CNN's list of the 27 deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history, seven of those shootings were committed by young under 30 males since 2005.
Of the seven, only one, Virginia Tech shooter Seung Ho Hui, so I'm not going to try to pronounce the Virginia Tech shooter, who had been mentally unstable since childhood, was raised by his biological father throughout childhood.
Now, this is also extremely out of date and wrong.
Quote, for the purposes of this article, we researched contemporaneous news reports to see if any of the shooters originally listed in CNN's 27 deadliest mass shootings in U.S. history grew up in households without a father.
We found that with a father.
We found that several of them did.
The Virginia Tech shooter who killed 32 people in Virginia Tech in 2007 was raised by both a father and a mother.
So was George Hennard, who killed 23 people in Colleen, Texas in 1921.
Charles Whitman, who killed 17 people at the University of Texas at Austin in 1966.
Nadal Mali Kassan, who fatally shot 13 people in Fort Hood in 2009.
Jivri Wong, who killed 13 in 2009 in Binghamton, New York.
And Aaron Alexis, who fatally shot 12 people at the Washington Navy Yard in 2013.
James Huberty, who killed 21 people at a McDonald's in the San Diecedro neighborhood of San Diego, California in 1984, was raised by a single father and later a father and a stepmother after his biological mother abandoned the family.
So again, these are not, and by the way, this is not a comprehensive list of all of the mass shooters.
Many of them have.
It is complete horseshit to say that they do not have like mass shooters tend to be fatherless.
That's nonsense.
Pulling Punches on Failure00:02:33
Yeah, that's not Stephen Molyneux shit.
Yes.
So Jordan doesn't have an editor for content here.
Again, he's just kind of talking in a nice room.
So he starts off on a rant next about how woke universities are.
And he winds up repeating at length his arguments from episode one about not saying anything you don't 100% believe in.
Again, because there's no editor here and no one can tell him, hey, Jordan, you went over all this already.
And so for the next like couple of minutes, he's just kind of describing things people do without explaining anything of meaning.
It's like weirdly pointless.
And here's an example.
Everybody gets rejected 95% of the time.
You only have to succeed once.
And then maybe you're not good at interviews.
And maybe you try hard and you don't find another job.
And that sucks because he actually tried hard and you failed.
And so often people pull their punches so that if they fail, they can always say, well, I didn't really try that hard.
Yeah, it's just like.
Okay.
He does.
It's a very stream of consciousness.
Yeah.
It's very stream of consciousness, but also it's like.
Yeah.
That's true.
It's like there's like, he's got sucks when you don't get a job that you interview for.
Absolutely, Jordan.
He doesn't.
And that's why I think part of why he's so effective and connective for some people and why a lot of his critics will often be like, but he's good at this and good at this.
Because he'll say like really basic, almost banal, like therapist stuff.
Yeah.
Like this idea of like, yeah, sometimes people pull their punches so that like when they fail, they can say like, oh, I didn't really try very hard.
So it's fine.
That's a thing people do.
He's absolutely correct.
Yes.
But like what I do that often.
Exactly.
But like, okay.
And so it's going to go on.
Like it's this.
Yeah.
This episode is a mix of like these things.
He's just kind of like laying out things that happen in the world.
And then he's mixing it in with these like factual statements that are always wrong that he half remembers from friends of his, all of who are right-wing propagandists, like said in articles they work for quilt wrote for Quillette or Heritage or whatever.
And as the episode goes on, he makes repeated reference to his private clinical practice as a therapist, talking about how he laborously helped people rebuild their lives or fix intractable mental health problems.
And this is where things get really messed up.
Lots of people would come into my office and they're terrified to be there.
They didn't want to be there.
It took them like two years to get up the courage to go see a therapist.
And so part of my job was to make them as comfortable as I possibly could instantly.
And a huge part of that was paying attention to them and not to me.
Gaining Trust with Troubled People00:03:32
And you can get really good at that.
Wait a sec.
Sorry.
Brave, brave, brave concept.
This should be about them and not you, Jordan.
What are you talking about?
Yeah.
Nobody goes to a therapist to learn about the therapist.
I just want to get a therapist to pay $150 a session so I can get to know a dude.
What is he doing?
We're going to get into what he's talking about, Cody.
But first, you know what is the only real kind of therapy?
Spending money.
Yeah, well, it is in fact Ska.
Look, you go to a fucking Streetlight Manifesto concert and tell me that you didn't just have a religious experience.
I will.
I dare you to, Cody.
Dare accept it.
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I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him.
I was hi, dad.
And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk.
This is this badass convict.
Right.
Just finished five years.
I'm going to have cookies and milk come on.
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Broken Japanese Education System00:12:18
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Oh, okay.
So we're back.
Jordan Peterson has just talked about how he became friends and gets all of his patients to trust him, right?
About how, like, that's a real struggle as a therapist, getting these people to trust them and about how good he is at it.
And the fact that he's talking about like how important it was to gain the trust of these troubled people who came to him looking for mental health advice, that made me want to look up like what happened with his actual patients because he's no longer in clinical practice.
And I kind of thought maybe there's a story there.
And boy, howdy, I came across.
Yeah.
I came across an article in the magazine Canada Land about the end of Jordan Peterson's clinical practice.
Now, this occurred as he became a media figure and he went from obscure academic to wealthy celebrity.
And one of the first things Jordan did when this happened is abandon the patients that he built a rapport with.
Quote, shortly before Peterson decided he couldn't both be a media personality and a practicing psychologist at the same time, he canceled sessions with patients, later claiming illness while maintaining an appointment to appear on television.
He responded to messages from patients with auto-reply emails, which brought up the challenges of his burgeoning fame, directing recipients to send argumentative emails to his ideological opponents.
He employed his wife to sort through emails from patients without first asking for their consent.
He shared potentially identifying information about patients with other patients.
Oh my God.
That's really bad, right?
That's really bad.
That's horrible.
That's deeply unethical and kind of evil.
That's not just that's evil.
Yeah, that's really evil and selfish and cruel.
Deeply, like potentially disturbing, to be honest.
Like potentially something that could even have a body count.
Yeah.
Because being a therapist is a thing, like a number of people who are attending therapy are doing it because suicide is a thing they consider regularly.
And if they let you in and trust you, and then you like both abandon them because you get famous and also tell them, hey, send emails harassing people I don't like.
Like.
Yeah.
So, okay, yeah.
Okay.
Like, yeah, you're trusting this person and they cancel and then you see them on TV.
That's fucked up.
What, like, could you repeat the part about the emails to his opponents?
Yeah.
He was like, it's like this long list of just like recipients to send argumentative emails to his ideological opponents.
So, wait, so you emailed his patients to yeah, this was like, I think this was a thing.
Let me pull up the art.
It's been a while since I read it.
Let me pull up the article again and find more detail for you.
What the fuck is wrong with this guy?
Well, I think we know what's wrong with him.
He's a fucking narcissist who wanted money.
Yeah.
That is like.
That's very interesting.
I wish I had found this article when you and I were doing the Peterson episodes that we did.
Because this is legitimately like the worst thing I've heard about him.
That's all you need to know about him.
Like that's...
Oh my God.
All right.
Well.
So basically, this article, a lot of it focuses on one of his patients, Samantha, who like he cancels an appointment with her saying that he's sick and then he shows up on TV the next night.
This is like right when all that stuff breaks with that Canadian like change to hate laws and stuff.
Quote, when Samantha responded to an email that offered new dates to meet, she received what appeared to be an auto reply aimed at his growing number of supporters, attempting to mobilize a letter writing campaign in his battle against political correctness at the university.
Hi, thank you for writing.
At the moment, I am unable to keep up with my email correspondence, although I will try at some point in the future to respond personally.
If you are emailing me about current PC-related issues, you should consider sending your comments to the following individuals.
Remember that the only way that any of this can be straightened out is through carefully articulated and reasonable arguments.
I would say that the vast majority of letters I have received have been exactly that, and it's just what is needed.
Assume rationality on the part of the recipients and make a careful case.
We want to play in the court of reason.
CC a copy to me, if you wish.
And then the message gave email addresses for like seven University of Toronto officials who had gone after him for his refusal to refer to students by their preferred gender pronouns.
So that's what's happening is this woman, he builds a rapport with her.
She's like comes to rely on him for her mental health care.
And then he like ghosts her and all she gets is auto replies telling her to harass people at the university on his behalf.
That's literally what happens there, which is profoundly abusive.
That's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard about Jordan Peterson.
Yeah.
That is in the top three at least.
There's a long list.
I'd have to sort through it, but that's like really fucked up.
That's really deeply fucked up.
It just speaks so much to who he is and what he's all about.
Yeah.
And there's a number of ethics complaints that get filed against Peterson by patients who found themselves discarded by him in his rush to capitalize on fame.
Obviously, he doesn't talk about any of this on the show, right?
He just talks about how good he is at building a rapport with people and getting them to trust him.
And not talking about himself or whatever.
And not talking about himself, focusing on them.
God, what a fucking creep.
What a piece of shit.
Weirdo.
So he spends several minutes talking about his friends in school who were all again, this is now he's gone back to like talking about his own childhood, about people he used to know as a kid.
And all of his friends were super, like, or all of his friends in like high school were like super tough, cool kids who worked on oil rigs.
He starts talking telling the story about how one of his friends got into a fight with their swimming coach and they were both cool, like super cool.
And then Jordan forgets to tell us the end of the story and talks about how Jocko Willink is cool too.
What?
He's just like, he's just like talking about his cool friends in oil rigs and how they got into a fight with the coach and they're both so manly.
You know, who else is manly?
Is the Navy SEAL with a podcast, Jocko Willink, who, again, I'm not, I have no particular opinions on Jocko.
I'm not attacking him.
Jordan Peterson just goes into a rant about how cool he is because he's like Jordan's friends who got into fights with their swimming coach.
For the record, I don't think Jocko Willink ever got into a fight with a swimming coach.
I would believe you.
Here's the clip.
You're going to want to do it on your own terms.
And our school system is very bad at facilitating that.
In fact, it does everything.
It was even designed at the beginning to not facilitate that because our school system was based on the Prussian military model.
And the Prussians, who also trained the Japanese to establish their school systems, by the way, they wanted to produce obedient factory workers.
So, first off, this is what, after he's randomly talking about how his friends were super cool oil rig workers who got into fist fights with their coach, this is what leads to him talking about like modern education and how broken it is.
Like the idea that it was better back when kids would just work in oil rigs and get into fist fights with coaches.
And now it's, they're all Prussian school modeled and terrible and like everybody's being trained to be obedient drones.
Wait, a second.
He likes that though.
Well, no, he doesn't because that's a great point, Cody, but he doesn't now.
So what's important is that he's made another falsifiable statement here, right?
That Japan based their schooling on the Prussian model.
Now, the Prussian model, but like we're taught by them, like trained by them to do this.
The Prussian model is a thing.
Japan did not base their schooling system on Prussian learning alone.
Nor did the Prussians just like teach them how to do schooling.
From 1873 to 1890, Japan reformed their educational system.
And they didn't do it just like by bringing in people to teach them how to do it.
They didn't base their new education system on any one nation's methods.
And what they did was the very reasonable thing, they adopted a number of different methods from several countries and then tested a bunch of them out at the same time so that they could learn through trial and error what seemed to work best.
They did in fact study and test aspects of the Prussian system.
They also tested and studied aspects of the American and French education systems.
Almost like they didn't just want to create robotic drones, but were really just like trying to solve the difficult problem of like what works for an educational system.
Prussia, the late 1800s, very successful country.
So was the United States and so is France.
And so they're kind of like being like, well, these three countries are succeeding in ways we want to succeed.
Let us test aspects of their educational systems to see what works for us, which is not what Peterson's saying.
No, because he's wrong about everything.
Oh, he said the Prussians train them how to do the school, which is what it's based on.
He does this.
It also, it's so maddening because like clearly he reads a lot.
He's a reader.
He reads a lot.
And he half remembers, like most of us do, bits and pieces of what he read.
He like, he like kind of absorbs a little bit or like these tidbits that he like moves around so that they align with whatever he is thinking at the time and like just says like as fact this thing.
It's like, well, 10% of that was right.
Yeah.
Like you're right.
The Japanese did test out aspects of the Prussian education system, but you're missing what actually happened in Japan in that period.
Right.
There's like, okay, subject and object are right.
The verbs are all wrong.
Yeah.
I think a thing that is kind of worth highlighting here is the denial of agency of Japanese people.
Like the way he frames it, the Prussians came in and taught them how to build an education system that would train their children into like little robots and that that's what happened, as opposed to the Empire of Japan exercising considerable agency, going out and testing different methods to try and reform their system in a way that would allow them to achieve their goals, which is what happened, right?
Yeah.
Because Japan is famously a country that exercises quite a bit of agency.
Yeah.
But like, yeah, and like they did the thing that he would support.
Like you test this, you test this, you test this, and you find the best result.
And like, is he trying to make a connection to what he was talking about earlier with like Japanese men?
Yeah, I think so.
I think he is.
Like, that's why he brought it up, right?
Yeah.
Even though, like, there are, you might argue, a significant thing that happens about 60 years after Japan reforms its educational system that leads to kind of some social breaks that might be more relevant for looking at things that are happening to young Japanese men in 2022.
Not that his, not that what he said earlier about Japanese men in 2022 was accurate either.
Right.
Yeah.
I don't know, Jordan.
I think something happened in the mid-40s that might have caused a break in the way Japanese society handled stuff like education.
I mean, anything that's that's entirely new stuff.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay, Dr. Peterson.
So anyway, he's just, this doesn't have a huge thing to do with his other claims.
It's just like he's, he's always wrong.
Anyway, here's another clip.
Don't sell yourself short.
And don't let the people who demand slavish obedience, you know, that puppy dog style of living, don't let them short-circuit your future because, you know, you're not inclined towards that kind of obedience.
That's actually a virtue, not a vice, even though it's punished in, well, certainly in schools, especially by Oedipal female teachers.
Ah.
Although there's no shortage of men who are participating in that as well.
Ah!
What?
Yeah.
My man.
I just did it based on like the cool split screen thing, the super cool.
That is just so great visually.
Pretending Without Products00:04:28
That he was going to say some fuck shit.
I love whenever, because you have these moments where like there's this little slip.
He loses a little bit of composure and it's like, ah, you hate women, right?
Like that's, yeah, you're really deeply angry at women.
Yeah.
That's a couple like, yeah, like all the stuff he's been saying, like this, that, like dating above their status and like the fatherless, it's like single mothers and mass shooters, like all this stuff.
It's like, man.
You're just so deeply angry at the concept of women.
That's pretty cool, I think.
But also, like, it's only what he's talking about, too, is just like, you know, obedience is like, you know, don't be this is a slave to blah, blah, blah.
It's like, but you would disagree with that if it was about something you agree with.
You would be like, well, no, you like, you, you follow orders, you like, you do this, you do this, you find your place, and you like, you follow the steps in your hierarchy to do X and Y.
It's just so just his, it's like context ideology dependent, and it's just fun to see him pretend that he doesn't, he doesn't think that way.
Yeah.
You know what else is fun to pretend, Cody?
Some Oedipal mother.
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I went and sat on the little ottoman in front of him.
I was like, hi, dad.
And just when I said that, my mom comes out of the kitchen and she says, I have some cookies and milk.
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Right.
Just finished five years.
I'm going to have cookies and milk.
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Ah, we're back.
And I hope that your lives have been filled with meaning.
The only meaning you will ever experience.
Family means nothing.
Your own children mean nothing.
Love is but a vapor in the air.
But the products and services that support this podcast are God in a very real way, Cody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's good.
No disagreement.
Cool.
So the very next thing that happens in the Jordan Peterson TV show is this very, this really weirdly sharp cut, followed by the title text, Can Men Be Controllable Monsters?
Oh, he loves.
Let's talk about this stuff.
Oh, my God.
Yeah, it's a question that only psychopaths ask themselves.
So you got to accept the monstrous aspects of you and be a monster in order to be whatever.
He'll say it.
It's fine.
I know exactly what he's going to say.
He talks about Young and Nietzsche a lot.
And it's honestly, it's not very interesting.
There's a long kind of rambling rant here, but I want to play where it leads him to.
This is him kind of like reaching his conclusions.
You might have fantasies of revenge, sometimes very violent.
If you're extremely sexually deprived, or maybe not even that extremely, you'll have sexual fantasies.
And if you're revengeful and look up, bro.
And feeling oppressed and then you might have violent sexual fantasies.
That's a part of you.
So let's say that's the shadow.
I just want to point out that he only looked into the camera when he was like, violence.
Sexual fantasies.
Yeah.
Oh, God.
It's all like this.
And there's a cut coming up in which the screen splits in three, focusing on Jordan's hands, then a close shot of his face, and then the wide shot of him sitting in a chair.
Nothing interesting happens during this.
He does not make any points.
There is no big conclusion he builds to.
I just, the editing decisions in this video.
What was his text on screen just then?
Oh, scroll back.
Why don't we just play that segment?
Let's give Cody a little bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a head.
It's a head.
Oh, it's a head.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's a headache.
30 minutes in, man.
There's this text during the day.
Yeah, the text is women want a tameable beast.
There we go.
There we go.
Yeah.
He loves to.
Yeah, it's amazing.
So his train of thought, as that might key you in on, leads him to another Disney movie.
Thank God.
And here's him talking about that.
Story of Beauty and the Beast.
And so in the Disney version, which does a very nice job of laying this out, Beauty is an entirely commendable female.
She's attractive and wise, intelligent, ethical, devoted to her father, but not in a pathological way.
Independent.
She has everything going for her.
She's the target of the advances of a narcissistic Machiavellian Gaston, who's like a parody of masculinity.
He's sort of, you might think about him as the feminist's patriarchal nightmare in animated form.
Said no one ever.
What?
What are you doing?
Well, he's not a nightmare so much as a caricature.
It's a movie, isn't it?
But like, it's a movie, and he's Gaston is the bad guy because he's everything Jordan Peterson wants a man to be.
He's deeply concerned with hierarchy.
He is unable to consider the validity of other people's experiences.
He is deeply anti-woke.
He extracts unthinkingly from the world around him in order to increase his own power and his own relative level of wealth in society.
He is everything Jordan Peterson thinks it's good for a man to be, which is what he's a caricature.
He's a caricature of you, Jordan.
Right.
Yeah.
And like the movement you're supporting.
It's so weird to also, it's funny.
He and like, you know, the Shapirs of the world, they just can't like, whenever they see something like that, they can't.
They like short circuit in a way because he wants to talk about Beauty and the Beast in a way that's like, oh, it's meaningful and it means this and it demonstrates this.
And like, here's what it says about life and it's good.
But there's this character who reminds me of me.
So he's bad.
Like the idea that they're like, he's scoffing at this.
What he's saying is that like, rather than Beauty and the Beast was even in the fucking, whenever that movie was made, like the 60s, right?
Even in this less woke era, the people who made Beauty and the Beast were specifically saying, like, masculinity, toxic masculinity of the sort that Peterson embodies is something to be mocked and derided.
Which is like what they hate the most.
Yeah, which is what they hate the most.
Because the message of that is that like things get better for this, like monstrous, aggressive individual because he's fundamentally capable of change and like listening to others and learning from them.
And everything good that happens to him and happens in the story is because he's capable of listening to and learning from a woman.
Is he just like ramping up to critique like feminist movements like me too?
Is that what he's doing?
Yeah, I think that's kind of where we're.
Let's continue.
Okay.
From where we left off.
He's all bluster.
And although he's attractive, it's a superficial attractiveness that often characterizes narcissists.
And beauty is wise enough to actually prefer the beast, who's a beast, but also capable of standing up to Gaston and also prevailing, which is the advantage of the beast-like element.
Wait a second.
But also capable of being enticed by beauty, and maybe literally so, into a, first of all, a productive orientation for his proclivity for aggression and also into a productive and generous relationship.
And beauty, being a wise woman and oriented towards the good and characterized by a positive relationship with her father, which is stressed, by the way, in that movie, wants a tamable beast.
And first off, we'll continue in a second.
It's been a minute since I've seen that.
Isn't it one of the points of it that he's actually not super violent?
Like he makes like big threats and he blusters, but he never hurts her, nor is he a violent threat to the rest of the village.
No, he's only a violent threat to Gaston briefly at the end because he's like bringing a mob of people.
That was so interesting to see him be like, yeah, he's capable of being aware of it.
She has to control his beastliness in order to defeat this narcissist.
And like, I actually think the point of it is that he's not really a beast.
He just looks scary because of a curse, but is actually kind of a decent man with some emotional trouble who needs to work through his problems.
Yeah.
Like he becomes.
Is that not the actual point of the story?
That's not a magenta by the end.
It's so weird that he led with that.
I'm just saying, update to dating profile.
Must be four years older than me and be a hashtag tameable beast.
Be a tameable beast.
That's right.
Be a tamable beast.
Because I feel like it's a little bit more.
Anyone, guys, would be like that.
Oh, yeah.
Finally.
Finally.
Why don't you keep playing for a little bit longer here?
Oh, we did the rest of the thing that you marked.
No, no, no.
I want to get to the point where he talks about how women like erotic literature.
Yes!
Yes!
Yes.
I've seen him.
I have seen before or before.
Sorry, before we play this, I have seen, again, all this stuff is stuff he's talked about like 90 million times on other podcasts and vlogs and stuff.
I've seen him talk about what he's about to talk about with his daughter.
Productive and competent, but also capable of enough aggression to keep the real monsters at bay.
And that's a very narrow needle eye for women to thread because you need a man who's aggressive enough to keep the real monsters away, but simultaneously agreeable enough, empathic enough, generous enough to be good with kids, to be good with her, and to share.
And so that's a very fine line.
And the taming of the beast is in some sense the negotiated establishment of that line.
So there's a book called A Billion Wicked Thoughts that was written by Google engineers who are quite reliable social scientists when they put their minds to it, engineer types, because they tend to follow the data independent of any political inclination.
And they looked at patterns of pornography use among men and women, drawing on literally billions of data points, a billion wicked thoughts.
And they found something that had been reported previously, but this was on a very large scale, that men use visual pornography.
I don't think that comes as a shock to anyone, but that women's preferred pornographic art form is literary.
Women like stories.
And they analyze the canonical female pornographic fantasy.
And it's basically, surprise, surprise, 50 shades of gray.
And so the Google engineers identified five categories of men that were often the feature target for the romantic and erotic adventures of the female protagonist in the pornographic stories.
Pirate, vampire, surgeon, billionaire, and one I can never remember.
But you get the idea.
High surgery.
Okay, now pause it here.
It said werewolf.
It's werewolf.
It's werewolf.
The one he cannot remember is werewolf.
You remember his son?
He's like, make sure you put werewolf in there.
Make sure you put werewolf in there.
And like, there's so much that's wrong here.
Number one, I don't know.
Obviously, a number of women find it attractive when a man is like muscular or strong or like large.
There's something comfortable, especially if you're smaller about that.
That is like a thing that occurs in the world.
But it's not because those men are tameable beasts.
And in fact, I would argue that in my experience, it tends to be deeply off-putting if you feel like somebody is barely holding in check their aggressiveness.
Like it's nice to be with someone if you're who like you feel like, oh, if something bad happens, this person will react well and can help me stay safe and can protect people around me.
That is an attractive trait.
It's like if a fire breaks out and you happen to have someone there who has experience fighting fires and they put the fire out, that is attractive.
It is attractive to know, oh, that person can handle themselves in a dangerous situation, right?
All people find that attractive, men and women.
It's always an attractive trait for very obvious reasons.
What very few people find attractive is feeling, wow, this person could fly off the handle and become a dangerous, violent person at any second.
Yes.
Right.
Because what he's talking about are fantasies.
He's used that word many times.
That's what he's talking about.
And in these fantasies, they're not like we pirate.
It's not a violent, angry pirate with a short fuse who could have been.
It's the charming erudite who's, you know, he's violent.
He's doing a violent job, but he's not inherently a violent man.
And when you get to know, it's the, there's a reason why an entire generation of women in the West fell in love with Carrie Elwes and fucking because he's, yeah, he's this pirate, but fundamentally, the instant you talk to him, he doesn't, he's not this unchecked, violent madman.
He's a deeply urbane, erudit, charming individual, and that's incredibly attractive.
Yeah.
I mean, looking for a man four years older, hashtag tameable beast, but also literally literal werewolf.
Not picky.
Again, the two deeply handsome men in who have a generation of men and women fell in love with in the Princess Diary, Indigo Montoya and Carrie Elwiz is the dread pilot, Princess Bride is the dread pirate Roberts, are both like deeply thoughtful and emotionally connected.
Gentle, and Gentle, very gentle and merciful as a general rule.
Yeah, they treat Buttercup wonderfully the entire time.
Fez, like, they're all, it's just, what a fucking, I'm sorry.
It's incredible.
It's incredible.
But also, like, even his thing he's citing, he's like, surprise, surprise, it's 50 Shades of Gray.
And I'm not, I have not read 50 Shades of Gray.
I've like read funny reviews of it a little bit, but like I'm pretty sure the Gray character, the main character's name is Christian Gray, which is the billionaire guy.
But like, he's not like a violent, vicious man.
It's an arrangement that they have made.
Consensual sexual arrangement.
It's a sexual arrangement where she feels safe in that relationship to open herself up and feel and be vulnerable in that scenario.
It's not like, ooh, he's like a fucking violent like sadist and I'm gonna, but I'm gonna tame him.
Like that's not what it's about, right?
There's this, there's this thing, and we're, we're gonna tread into some dicey territory.
You can find a number of men who wrote, particularly back in the 70s, really bad essays about the fact that rape is a really common sexual fantasy, right?
That a lot of sexual fantasies involve assault and domination in that.
Bernie Sanders.
Bernie Sanders wrote a terrible essay.
Hunter Thompson wrote a terrible essay.
And as somebody who has repeatedly interviewed people who professionally, sometimes in a clinical sense, help people engage with fantasies like that.
Part of the reason why those are so common is they allow people who have been victimized to take power and agency in a situation that was deeply traumatic to them and kind of recreate and explore that experience while being able to take agency and control this time.
And that is a reason why that is a thing that people, but I don't think a guy like Jordan is capable of understanding that.
Instead, he interprets it as women actually want this, a diversion of this to happen to them rather than like, well, people who are traumatized may seek to explore the thing that traumatized them in a way in which they have more agency.
Aggression and Crazy Women00:12:02
Yeah, it's kind of fucked up that he's a psychologist.
It's really fucked up that he's a psychologist.
This is a deeply studied piece of like sexual psychology.
A lot has been written by clinicians about why people do the things in some of this role playing that they do.
Like this is a thing people study academically that I don't think he's ever read about because it would make him uncomfortable.
Yeah, Burst's Little Bubble.
I feel like he said these, had like tweets about this, like about, I feel like it was about Muslims.
Yeah.
And like desiring, like, I don't even want to find it.
It doesn't matter.
No, it's not, it's just, again, he's, he's, he's wrong about everything.
Just like he's wrong about werewolves because he forgot them, which is funny.
Look, if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're going to list things that are common in erotic fiction, like werewolf is going to be the top of everybody's werewolf and pirate, right?
Werewolves and pirates.
Like, I wonder, like, because there's like, he's like, and then there's a fourth one and I can't remember it.
And then text on screen said, werewolf.
I wonder if they didn't know.
Like, part of me feels like, because he, I think he just, like, probably talks and then leaves and isn't like privy to like what it turns out as.
He's not like in the editing room, you know, being like, oh, dude, text here.
Is this some fucking person?
Gotta watch this and cut to a shot of his hands or whatever.
So I feel like the editor like guessed.
And you're like, oh, pirates, vampire, werewolves too.
And that's why it says werewolves, not because that's what he couldn't think of, but because the editor had to fill it in.
Yeah.
It's um, you know, what I would like to do with Jordan Peterson, if I could, I would like to sit him down and I would like to make him watch the movie Wolf Cop.
And I would like him to interpret the film Wolf Cop, particularly the scene in which the main character bursts dick first into a werewolf.
It's the most incredible scene in cinematic history.
Nothing has ever compared to it.
God, I love Wolf Cop.
I am just now hearing of it.
Have you not seen Wolf Cop?
He turns cock first into a werewolf, Cody, and you see it all.
What the fuck?
It is amazing.
You see everything.
You see everything.
Wolf Cop.
Watch it.
I'm checking out the trailer right now.
It is.
What the fuck?
He sure did.
He's a very drunk cop.
The main character is a drunk cop.
Wait, is that why he threw up?
Yes, because he's wasted.
He is like, he is like the sheriff in Jaws level alcoholic.
It's awesome.
And then the best thing about it is after he becomes a werewolf, he doesn't stop being a cop.
He's both 100% werewolf and 100% cop at the same time, which is groundbreaking, Cody.
I mean, that's why he's a wolf cop, right?
Yes, exactly.
Anyway, let's get back to Jordan.
Anyway, pirate.
Vampire and Wolf Cop.
And Wolf Cop.
So it's very funny.
So he goes into this misunderstanding of this Google study to say that it's really important that all of these preferred female fantasy men were like, these fantasies remained in place during Me Too.
He thinks that's a big deal.
We did it.
We did it.
I knew it was.
I knew it.
I knew it.
Anyway, here's how he describes the Me Too movement.
Just taking a deep sigh.
All male will is potentially corrupted by power and to be regarded with suspicion and legal regulation.
Well, that's far too extreme and preposterous.
And so what you have is a compensatory fantasy emerge that's highlighting the value that's not being properly attended to by the culture.
And it possesses people in an unconscious manner, you might say, in an attempt to bring them back to the middle.
And anyways, that's all part of the tameable monster.
Is it also the hand motions during that exact part were just spectacularly distracting?
It's his need to like, make these things complex and deeper than like it's.
It was easy for men to get away with assaulting women and they didn't like that.
It's so frustrating like listening to him talk about this stuff.
It's like no man just like it.
People don't like to be assaulted.
Jordan like, like the, the like why Me Too, happened is extremely simple.
It was easy for powerful men to get away with abusing women and the women didn't like it.
Didn't like it, and also a lot of men didn't like it, because it's fucked up and horrible like people did.
People don't like that.
It's bad.
Some people did, and those people are bad.
Yeah, those people are terrible, and we wanted them out of our society.
No, no, no, we need to tame them.
They're the tameable beasts.
You can even phrase that in like a stupid mythic term where, like, fundamentally, society is all sheep and wolves, and the wolves were preying on the sheep, but dressing as the wolf.
It's the evil uncle and the crown.
And I don't know, whatever.
I'm not going to try to do that.
Like, you can do a better job of this than me.
That's what he would say.
Yeah.
So after this, he restates for like the fifth fucking time that a man who can be aggressive but also knows how not to be aggressive is the most useful kind of man, which is like pointless.
Yes, aggression is sometimes necessary.
So it is, it is good to be capable of aggression and also know when that's not appropriate.
Like, obviously, that's the same as saying, like, it's good to know when you should use a kitchen knife as opposed to putting the kitchen knife away so you don't accidentally cut somebody.
Well, yes, Jordan, it is good to not just swing a kitchen knife around.
There's a time and a place for that knife.
Everyone knows this.
Also, the same is true of women, where it's you need to be aggressive sometimes and other times it's inappropriate to be aggressive.
That is true of all human beings.
Like sometimes human beings will need to be aggressive, but most of the time they won't need to be.
And knowing the difference is critical, obviously, Jordan.
I don't know.
His episode peters out to a completely nonsensical closing statement.
He's a way more useful man than one who cannot do that for lack of ability or because he's imposed or incorporated arbitrary moral constraints on his perceptions and behavior that stop him from well from being able to say no, for example, because saying no is an act of aggression.
Because what no means, no means stop doing that or something you do not like will absolutely 100% happen to you.
And so without that, there's no capacity to say no.
Well, if you can't say no, you can't negotiate.
You can't move forward.
You can't live your own life.
You can't put limits on Machiavellians.
You can't oppose narcissists.
You can't emerge unscathed from people who use empathy in a manipulative way.
You can't put constraints on a badly behaving two-year-old.
Oh, good.
We get the song.
No and aggression.
Those are an integrated aggression.
Those are pretty much exactly the same thing.
What?
Pretty much exactly the same thing is inherently an act of violence.
It is an impressive fake out.
He's saying that because, like, you can't say no without the threat of force.
But for example, the other night, my friends were going out to dance and they asked if I wanted to go and I said no.
And you know what?
I didn't was not present at all was the fact that I might harm them physically if they asked me again, right?
Like There was no threat.
It was just I was asked if I wanted to do a thing and I stated that I did not.
Right, because like what he's like assuming that like it's not just like the no is violence, it's the initial question is violence.
Yeah, everything is violence.
It's just violence meeting violence.
Violence.
And so rejecting that is also implicit violence.
And also like as a general, even in the because he obviously means a lot of this is like in a like in a sexual way.
Like if a man asks something of a woman and she says no, that's violence on her part too, because obviously she can only back up the fact that like she doesn't want him to do something if she's willing to use force,
which is nonsense because I think is for the most part in human society when like people ask, do you want to do like, hey, do you want to make out or whatever or have some sort of like physical arrangement and the other person says no.
As a general rule, most people are like, oh, okay.
And there's not a threat of violence because most people don't want to be rapists.
I do feel like that's probably one hopes.
Yeah.
That is somewhat of a statement of faith on my part, but yeah.
I mean, according to Jordan, that's not true.
According to Jordan, that's not true.
It's the threat of violence on both sides, period.
What a fucking weird way.
Also, like, just what a weird way to end.
But like, it's just, again, it's one of those things where he's like, he's talking these grandiose terms and in some ways just misrepresenting things and saying fucked up, like, like hardlined rules about how everybody is and how everybody should act.
But what he's talking about, like, almost is like, yeah, it's good to set boundaries and be able to say no.
Which, okay.
Yeah.
But also saying no is inherently not an act of violence.
Right.
No.
Like, it's not, it's like, it's like packaged in all this other stuff that is like.
It would be, it would be fair to say that like sometimes because of because of the fact that many men have bad boundaries and are aggressive in an unhinged way, women may need to know how to say no in a, in a way that is aggressive and that implies a degree of threat because they may be in a situation where they are themselves threatened.
That's a fair statement.
But also, number one, that's not ever going to be generally true.
And number two, we should be moving as a society to a situation in which people don't have to say no as a with the threat of aggression behind it.
Like, because that's bad.
That's always a bad thing when that happens.
Anyway, Jordan Peterson.
I mean, he's talked about this before in terms of like how you can't like, like you can't, uh, you can't control crazy women because you can't be violent with them.
If you're a man, I can, the threat of violence is there.
But if you're a woman, it's not.
So you can't do anything.
There's nothing to control women.
Yes.
It's just a weird fucking guy.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I feel like he's not a good person, Cody.
I think maybe.
Maybe that's true.
I think that those emails and how he treated his patients is pretty indicative that he's not a very good person.
Aside from everything else he's ever said and how he's used the world.
Not a fan.
Cody, you know what I am a fan of?
What's that?
Is you.
Oh.
Yeah.
Me too.
Sometimes.
Where, where?
Because I've never met you before.
This is the first time we're talking.
If I wanted to find things that you make and or create on the internet, where would I find those?
Oh, so many places or just a few.
YouTube, I have a show called Some More News.
New Episode Announcement00:03:31
Wow.
Where all the podcasts are.
A show called Even More News.
Wow.
And you can support either of those at patreon.com slash some more news.
And I've got their websites, social media with my name, Cody Johnston, is there.
Your name is Cody John Mazing.
Twitter and Instagram and my band, The Hot Shapes, will be available quite soon for all listeners to hear our album about.
I'm not even going to joke about it.
Cody, I am as excited now as the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones were when they realized that there was a cultural tragedy to exploit in order to sell an album.
An entire album.
About an entire album.
My God.
My God.
Not even like one song.
Not even a whole album.
Like, if there'd been one song, I'd be like, well, you know, it was a rough year, whatever.
Misguided, but I get it.
Like, you felt the need to express yourself.
Okay.
Whole album.
My God.
Anyway, find the guys from the mighty, mighty boss tones and hit them.
Hit them.
Or like, or go up and say, no.
You know who didn't do shit like this is Dropkick Murphys.
They just beat the fuck out of Nazis on stage.
Because they're okay.
All right.
Behind the Bastards is a production of CoolZone Media.
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On a recent episode of the podcast, Money and Wealth with John O'Brien, I sit down with Tiffany the Budgetista Alicia to talk about what it really takes to take control of your money.
What would that look like in our families if everyone was able to pass on wealth to the people when they're no longer here?
We break down budgeting, financial discipline, and how to build real wealth, starting with the mindset shifts too many of us were never, ever taught.
If you've ever felt you didn't get the memo on money, this conversation is for you to hear more.
Listen to Money and Wealth with John O'Brien from the Black Effect Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.
Ernest, what's up?
Look, money is something we all deal with, but financial literacy is what helps turn income into real wealth.
On each episode of the podcast, Earn Your Leisure, we break down the conversations you need to understand money, investing, and entrepreneurship.
From stocks to real estate to credit, business, and generational wealth, our goal is simple.
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Readers, Katie's finalists, Publicists.
We have an incredible new episode this week for you guys.
We have our girl Hillary Duff in here, and we can't wait for you to hear this episode.
They put on Lizzie McGuire at 2 a.m. video on demand.
This guy's playing.
2 a.m.
2 a.m.
Whatever time it is.
Lizzie McGuire and I'm like, wild, wild bad way.
It was like a first closet moment for me where I was like, you're like, I don't feel like she's hot like the rest of them.
No, no, no.
I was like, she's beautiful, but I'm appreciating her in a different way than these boys are.
I'm not like, listen to Last Cultureistas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.