Jesse Michels recounts personal UFO sightings, including a metallic bus in Laurel Canyon and silvery orbs during breath work, while analyzing research through Bayesian reasoning rather than null hypothesis testing. The discussion expands to consciousness theories like Penrose-Hameroff's orchestrated objective reduction and Zeland's Transurfing Reality, suggesting reality is a simulation influenced by heart-centered states. Ultimately, the episode posits that an emerging axial age requires shifting from combative skepticism to collective consensus, where individual manifestation and quantum collapse may reveal a deeper gestalt truth beyond conventional scientific explanation. [Automatically generated summary]
Transcriber: CohereLabs/cohere-transcribe-03-2026, Qwen/Qwen3-ForcedAligner-0.6B, sat-12l-sm, and large-v3-turbo
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Nighttime Flashlight Tag00:02:52
Let's talk about the things that you've seen.
The three that I think are probably the most noteworthy on your podcast.
It's like this school bus shaped rectangle thing hovering, like kind of right above the treetops.
We were five minutes into our breath work, and your hands can sometimes clam up, and his did.
And so we had to stop for a second.
And as soon as we stop, we look up and we see two silvery orbs.
And one's hovering above him, one's hovering above me, and they're both sort of like.
Third sighting is with Lou Elizondo, so famous, you know, UFO whistleblower.
And so we're deep in conversation on, you know, this sort of crazy science stuff.
And we just see over the shed, we see a green fireball just shoot off.
Do you believe David Grosh saw a craft?
No, I don't think he's seen a craft.
Do you believe Hal Puthoff seen a craft?
That's interesting.
Maybe.
Do you think that you've ever interviewed someone who you can confidently say has been inside a UFO?
In a government context.
Do you think, yes or no, that you've spoken to someone who is possibly or has probably been in one of these crafts?
Maybe.
Okay.
Yeah.
I just thought of somebody who maybe, yeah.
I have these really good friends, Garrett and Nicole McNamara, and their friend brought another friend who's a longtime kind of like aerospace employee or whatever.
And he was at lunch and he looked a little sort of traumatized.
And they get into it and they find out that this guy had been an employee at Area 51.
Apparently, he had been taken down again, also underground.
So similar to the Oscar Wolf story and seen a reptilian being in custody, like somehow like chained up.
And the thing seemed to speak to him telepathically, and he freaked out.
So, I grew up in southeast Georgia near a farm, and we used to play nighttime flashlight tag, hide and seek.
And I went out to hide while my cousin, who lived a couple of houses away, was counting.
I experienced two very bright white flashes, like someone put a camera off, and I just stood there stunned for a moment, and I noticed.
On the other side of the farm, there were cop cars driving by with flashlights looking for something, and I stopped and wondered, what's going on?
And then I heard from the back porch of our house behind me my mother calling my name, frantically calling for me.
Feeling Closer Through Stories00:10:03
And she saw me and ran towards me and hugged me and said, Where have you been?
What's been going on?
I said, We were just playing flashlight tag.
She said, Look at what time it is.
She said, It's past 10 o'clock.
When this happened, it was probably around 8 30 or so.
This happened to me, and I don't know what that was about.
All right, ladies and gentlemen, today I am joined by today's American Alchemist, the American Alchemist himself, Jesse Michaels.
Welcome in.
Chris, thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, absolutely.
This is for me been really, I've been looking forward to this podcast for a long time, but we've been hanging out quite a bit too, and chatting and working on different projects and consulting each other on different things for a little while now.
And, you know, I've gotten my hangs in with you, which is so cool.
Absolutely.
But now this is, it's almost weird because I feel like we're clearly friends off the podcast, but this is more for people out there because, like it or not, people watch our videos and they're like, I get it all the time.
Dude, you should have Jesse in The SCIF.
You know?
Well, I'm honored, man.
And I'm grateful to just know you as a friend.
And you've been so awesome to me.
And this set is so cool to see.
In real life, because it's kind of surreal because I've been watching it so much digitally.
Yeah.
And yeah, man, I love our weird phone calls that always last like two hours longer than they're supposed to.
We go down these crazy rabbit holes.
So yeah, I'm grateful for you, man.
And I'm happy to be here.
Thanks, man.
And I'm not the American Alchemist.
My guests are, but thank you.
Yeah.
Well, today you are Area 52er today.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, dude, you've been probably the most inspirational person in this space.
For creators like myself, but also for people who are looking to create and talk about this stuff, and for people who are just looking for a good story.
And as you know, like a lot of my channel is based on story, and I love telling a good story and I love when people come on here and tell great stories.
But you have this amazing ability to draw good stories out of people.
And even more amazing, I think.
And this is something I'll probably be echoed on by the audience, but you have some type of ability of getting people on camera to talk.
It's really incredible.
For sure.
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Have you ever thought about the list of people that have been on your show and how expansive that is in terms of knowledge?
Yeah, it's pretty crazy.
You know, sometimes I pinch myself and I'm like, oh, wow, like I've met all these amazing people and I've got, Been able to speak to them.
And I think there's something about that's kind of maybe disarming.
Like, I'm, I, I, you get what you see, I think, with me.
And I'm, I'm very, I think I'm pretty chill.
You know, on the inside, I think I'm a little more intense, but at least I come off, you know, adaptively as chill or something.
And, and, uh, yeah, I don't know.
I feel, I feel really grateful and lucky.
And I think I'm good at, like, you, for example, you put so much thought into everything you do.
And I can see that just spending time with you.
You know, today and yesterday, but also from all of our interactions, the production here is just next level.
And the way you talk about magic, you go so deep into magic and you build like a foundation where other people kind of take shortcuts.
And the merch you sell, and like the fact that you have interns on your Discord, like everything is so well thought out.
So, like, I see other people, I think, for who they are, and I appreciate the best aspects of them.
And I think that helps me.
Because they know I'm not playing some weird game of gotcha.
And I kind of understand where they're coming from and I kind of feel them out.
Yeah, that's so important.
That is so important because there's two ways of getting to an answer that's interesting from someone.
And one is the gotcha, like you mentioned.
Right.
And I feel like that's the easy route.
Right.
Because anybody can formulate a tricky question.
Yeah.
But to have somebody comfortable enough for them to open up.
And talk about things that you didn't even know were in there.
Yeah.
You know, I think that takes, it takes more.
It takes a comfort level that clearly you foster during these interviews.
And I think that's part of why people watch your videos.
We, you know, you learn through watching those what good conversation looks like.
And that's not a tutorial you can normally just go and Google, you know?
Well, that's so nice of you to say.
I'm horrible with compliments, but I really appreciate that, man.
It means a lot.
Yeah, no, for sure.
I think it's just appreciating the essence of what makes that person special.
And sometimes, especially in this space, as you know, people have a lot of issues.
And, you know, I don't know, you have to kind of glean out the.
Sometimes you're panning for gold, you know?
And it's like a lot of what the person has to say doesn't feel accurate.
You know, in their case, I think sometimes like maybe it's self deception.
So like they think they're like, you know, 100% truthful, but there are aspects of the story that feel just off.
And I think you can.
Emphasize the parts that are of use to the outside world, and then sometimes rhetorically even get at the parts that don't make sense or whatever.
And you can do that through just friendly interaction, and you don't have to be combative and you don't have to actually have them kind of hate you forever.
And then that also gets you closer to the truth.
And then they probably feel a little less guilty or better or whatever because they know that was like a more honest interaction than they maybe generally have or whatever.
Yeah, it's not stirring in their brain at night.
Like they feel good about that conversation.
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.
It's a good point.
You know, especially like you said in this topic, this can be a very divisive topic and sort of polarizing to speak about, not only vis a vis the audience, but also with the guest, him or herself.
The different ontologies that people hold dear to them, you know, is a tricky place to navigate.
I think violence occurs next to the sacred or next to the truth.
Yeah.
And so you think of science and you could couch UFOs within science because it's like empirical inquiry into the natural world as, you know, transcending politics.
It's transpolitical.
And in fact, it's the most political.
It's the most, I mean, if you look at like the UFO world, it's like a just absurd, like sort of infighting.
And it's because it's this like kind of religious dogmatic thing for a lot of the people kind of involved.
And I think it's unfortunate because I think, you know, it should just be this kind of personal quest ultimately.
And it doesn't really matter what anybody else says, like it doesn't at all.
And fixating on any of this stuff.
Like, I think the best in your show is amazing at this, too.
The best, I think, media in the space is simply expository.
It's just like, you know, trying to glean out, you know, the most authentic version of whatever the other person's trying to say and then peripatetically, you know, trying to approximate truth over the course of many guests.
And I don't know if you feel like this, but like maybe since starting Area 52, do you feel like you're a little bit closer to.
Some semblance of truth, and maybe it's a gestalt sense of truth, and it's not like a file you could give somebody.
But do you feel kind of closer to the reality of this subject, or do you feel like it's just as confusing as when you started?
Definitely.
I wouldn't say just as confusing.
There's more, I have more access to more information now, which leads me to having sort of more niche and deeper questions about the subject matter.
But all in all, I do feel like the more that I lean into this, The more that I realize that the answers are usually found within.
And that seems to be the overarching sort of theme of all of this.
Like when you get to the end of nuts and bolts, what are you left with?
You're left with consciousness and you're left with, you know, an ESP.
What is that?
Oh, we go back to like this quantum field.
Oh, we're all one.
And so it always comes back to that for me.
Yes.
And I think in that regards, I did, I have learned a lot because it has set me down some like paths where I've, you know, had some self discovery.
And for that, I'm thankful.
But in terms of, do I feel like I'm closer to maybe the nuts and bolts side?
Hard to say.
Hard to say.
It feels like it, but that might just be an illusion.
Sure.
Because I have more information.
And yet I've still not seen a UFO in front of me with aliens, right?
But somehow I feel closer.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Well, I think often the kind of little known dirty little secret of this space is like most of the people, In it, have kind of autobiographical reasons for being in it.
And one of my favorite quotes is from the Mino dialogues in Plato, and it's all knowledge is recollection.
And it actually involves, I think, it's like Socrates and Phaedrus, and they're showing that a slave at the time, because this is ancient Greece, knows how to draw a triangle, and it's purely primordial knowledge because he's gotten no kind of formal tutoring or whatever.
And there's something about this space because you are.
Nobody has the formal education.
Plato's Primordial Knowledge00:11:35
It's so confusing.
And so there's no kind of formal credentialed pathway that you can, there's no curriculum, right?
That you really have to like trust your kind of internal barometer and you have to trust your instincts.
And that's like, that's a very important sensor.
And I think the way you make the sensor better is actually then by distrusting your instincts.
It's this like constant kind of recursive loop of also being like, I could be entirely wrong and down the wrong path.
Yeah.
But it's a, I think it's that kind of mental gymnastic.
The process is healthy for anybody to engage in.
Yeah, definitely healthy, but definitely also tricky if you're not prepared for it because it could send you down some dark pathways.
For sure.
I often think that this, because this whole subject matter is anomalous, right?
In terms of what reality is, this is an outlier.
It's an anomaly that we're studying, right?
Just kind of like if you were doing a science experiment and an anomaly occurred.
I mean, there's two options there.
You can study the anomaly or ignore the anomaly, call it an anomaly because it doesn't fit the model and move on.
And we, because we choose to focus on the anomaly, innately cannot dismiss any other anomaly.
And so we're forced to intake these sometimes ludicrous realities and actually try and make them fit somehow.
And sometimes we get a piece from them that fits, and then the other part's just completely insane.
I've heard stories of Dan Buresh.
And then I was like, what are you talking about, J Rod?
And then I get Danny Sheehan, and he's like, well, there's an alien in S4 and answering questions.
And I'm like, God, do I have to go watch J Rod again?
Do I have to, I guess, you know, and does that open the door for Bob again?
And like, you know, like there's all these.
So we have to study these anomalies.
Totally.
And it can kind of drive you a little nutty sometimes.
A little nutty.
Dan Burish is a great example because we were with your good friend, my new friend, Luigi, last night.
He's making this amazing project, Gravatar.
And like you have to think, right?
Like he has all this amazing evidence that the Bob Lazar stuff, you know, he's probably at Area 51 at S4.
And so that the Dan Barish story involves S4, involves Area 51.
He gets recruited by Edward Teller to study at Stony Brook.
You know, he's this like microscopy expert at UNLV or whatever.
And so it has the exact same pattern as the Lazar story.
And so I think it's an epistemological, uh, Paradigm shift studying this stuff.
It's not just a scientific paradigm shift.
And the reason I say that is because if you look at Francis Bacon and like the advent of science itself, it always involves a priori skepticism.
You have to go into an experiment with a null hypothesis.
And the null hypothesis is that the experiment is going to show nothing, that it's wrong, that the reality as we know it is correct.
And with this topic, and I think actually probably healthier thinking points more towards like Bayesian thought or reasoning, which Danny Sheehan is an expert at and always likes to talk about.
He talks about Thomas Bay is this English statistician from the 18th century.
And that's more like, no, be open to everything.
Be open to everything and don't discount wholesale anything and catalog everything as extremely low probability.
And then build corroboration as you see, okay, Bob Lazar, I don't know, I'm not so sure.
Dan Barish, wow, it's a pattern match the same way.
Oh, Danny Sheehan's telling the story and he's, Broken all these other incredibly important American conspiracies.
Okay, you know, maybe there's something here.
So I think that's actually a healthier way of thinking, but it's not really, you say it's scientific, but it's not the way most scientists think.
And it takes patience.
It takes a ton of patience.
Yeah.
Most people get really frustrated in this space when they don't have the answer they're seeking in the amount of time that they've been seeking it.
Whether that's 30, 40 years, or whether that's one year, whatever it is, you can sense people's frustration with, trust me, bro, and all this stuff.
And the way that I see it is that it's all interesting.
Yeah.
True or not, it makes for an interesting story.
It's fun to find those puzzle pieces and sort of connect them together and be like, oh, that kind of fits.
I guess if you force it a little bit, it kind of fits in this puzzle.
You go, oh, it kind of looks like something now.
And like, You know, that's a fun exercise to do.
And I agree.
I think it is healthy, but it's hard.
It's hard.
But I also think it leads to, and I've probably said this ad nauseum on other podcasts, but it leads to breakthroughs.
Anomalies always lead to the next.
Like the next theory better encapsulates the anomaly than the current theory, whether it's black body radiation before the quantum revolution or the orbit of Mercury.
Like you have so many cases where you have an effect.
You can't turn the effect into math.
And you can't make it repeatable.
It does not mean the effect doesn't exist.
Correct.
You could say it doesn't exist.
It's an anomaly.
It's an anomaly.
And that's what a UFO is.
And so I'm so excited because I think if you actually like the more historically predictable thing to say is that we are probably going to have some working theory of what UFOs involve in the future.
And so it's just epic to try to be at the forefront of that.
Yeah, definitely.
And it's exciting to think which theory that will end up being.
Yes.
Or, you know, will it.
Be a brand new theory or maybe a mashup of all of them.
Like, who knows?
It's just while maintaining humility that theories are the maps and there's some underlying territory, and the map is never the territory.
Yeah.
So the theory is never going to be the end of history.
And if you think about it, like since Leibniz and Newton, you know, over the last, you know, 400 years, the way we've modeled our reality is vector calculus.
And so, like, everything has to, if it's not turned into vector calculus, it's not real.
You know, parapsychology is not real.
UFOs are not real.
All these things are not real.
And then, like, you know, you have a few drinks with, like, an academic, and they're like, oh, well, there's actually a lot of data around that.
We just don't really know how to make it repeatable or turn it into math.
And so that's because of these a priori heuristics that we have around vector calculus or whatever.
And maybe in the future, it's like, you know, you have these Wolfram guys where it's like a computational understanding of the universe.
Or maybe it's like Plato comes back and it's like we're in the cave.
And who knows?
But, They're all just mental models.
And it's really hard.
It's the problem of the eye seeing the eye.
Like, it's very hard to, you can't really audit your own measurement sensor, you know?
Right.
It's like, it's ultimately this kind of epistemic impasse.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I almost like to think that it might be something that Douglas Adams would dream up.
And it's just like the dolphins are the most intelligent species in the universe or the second most, and they just leave the planet.
Thanks for all the fish.
Right.
You know, some silly, you know, thing.
Because at the end of the day, I mean, even this whole subject matter is kind of silly.
I say that a lot.
I'm like, this is silly.
Look at where we're sitting.
We're in a skip.
This is silly and insane.
We're playing, we're kind of playing dress up right now, but talking about, you know, some of the most important things.
In human history.
But also at the same time, I think levity sort of adds, I don't know, it just makes it palatable.
Totally.
Because you can't spend your days in a dark basement surrounded by files and not come out of it a normal person.
You have to be able to add levity, to laugh a little bit at what we're doing, and to find interesting things and definitely be like the hard nosed, I need to figure this out and all this.
But at the end of the day, kind of throw it up in the air and be like, yeah, but what if it's also, I don't know.
You know, tall bean looking people.
Who cares?
It's fun.
And not be overly zealous.
Like you and Luigi updated a lot of them.
I kind of thought that the Bob Lazar stuff, well, I still think it might be somewhat of a limited hangout and pushed by the CIA or whatever, but I was unsure that he even worked at Area 51.
And now I'm pretty sure he did because of you and Luigi.
And at that point, it's like the most interesting thing in the world.
Okay.
So, what did he see and like how much of what he saw was true and how much of what he worked on was true?
And so I think it requires like, Like, you know, at first meeting you, I'm like, this guy's a magician.
Like, what is he going to teach me about Bob Lazar?
He taught me a whole lot.
And you honestly, even in this trip, like, you know, so much.
And it's a different vector of knowledge often than like what I'm interested in.
I'm like, sort of the more science nuts and bolts side or whatever.
And it's so cool.
So, yeah, I think it also requires just a lot of humility and kind of a team effort vibe as well.
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.
And especially, I mean, while we're talking about Bob as well, I think one of the most important factors, and I've said this, you know, when I made the sort of interview with Luigi about Cravator, I'd said this too, but knowing Bob, and I don't feel like I know him at all, but I feel like I've seen sides of him that people haven't seen because of the videos that I was shown and the conversations that I've actually had with Bob.
Character for me is an important thing.
And I'm, like yourself, I think a pretty good judge of it.
When it comes to, you know, bullshit meter.
And I'm sure a lot of people say that.
And I know a lot of people say that.
I think you're an extremely good judge of it.
And I think it comes from your magic background as well.
Yeah, potentially.
Yeah.
And I think that there are certain people who you can look in the eye and they can tell you something, and you go, I don't know.
I've had people sat across from me that I don't believe everything they've said, and I'll indulge them, and that's fine.
But Bob, I don't know.
I don't get that at all.
I think he's just saying his truth.
That's what it seems like.
And now this raises the question of, Is his truth tampered with?
Right.
Exactly.
Right.
And the beauty of Bob is that he will say, Yeah, it's possible.
Exactly.
You know?
And that's why I'm like, This is one of the most important cases, I think, in all of ufology, because point me to another experiencer or another whistleblower who doesn't have their own opinion about what they think is going on.
Yep.
Or who doesn't, you know, expound upon rumors or.
Sit there and try to think of like some scenarios, like, oh, yeah, well, maybe they're doing this, or maybe they're from this planet, or like he has none of that.
Yeah.
There's never speculation with this guy.
And it's, you know, Jalen Hynek, you know, legendary astronomer, leader of Blue Book.
He had his, you know, different ranking, you know, close encounters of the first, second, and third kind, third kind being most famous, where it's like you're interacting with the being itself.
You could say Bob Lazar's close encounter of the fourth kind, because the third kind is obviously fascinating.
It's kind of very in your face, but it's very ephemeral.
And it's usually retrieved through hypnotic regression, or at best, you have these shards of memories because it so the person interacts with the experience just like anybody would experience anything traumatic where it's sort of you know slightly broken.
Validity of Sighting Experiences00:14:34
And in this case, the guy is talking about a discrete location working on a craft that might still be at that location or you know might have been moved somewhere and maybe we could figure out where that is.
And we have technology that we can repeatably use.
And so, like, that's like, and he's alive, the witness.
And so, yeah, I agree.
It's in a category of its own.
And I'm so pumped about what Luigi's doing.
I hope you get to do cool stuff with Bob.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm excited to see how that kind of wave function collapses, so to speak.
Sure.
Exactly.
Same here.
Same here.
But now I want to transition over into some experiences that you've had.
Okay.
I told you before the podcast, do you mind if I ask you about these experiences you had?
You were totally fine with it.
Yeah.
Um, so this isn't like a gotcha moment.
Tell me about the UFOs.
Jesse, where are they hiding them?
You had multiple experiences.
You've been open with them, but I kind of want to catalog them here for someone who doesn't have to watch all the little pieces and fit them together.
Let's talk about the things that you've seen.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think three have seen a decent number of UFOs, honestly.
And it might be something where because I'm interested in the topic, like I'm more aware or something.
I don't know.
I can't.
It's sort of hard to explain.
But the three that I think are probably the most noteworthy on your podcast.
Number one was I had just moved to Laurel Canyon.
And so Laurel Canyon is actually kind of a trippy place unto itself.
I don't know if you're familiar with the history, but it has an amazing music history.
So, you know, the mamas and the papas were there.
Jimi Hendrix, I think, lived there.
Crosby Stills Nash, the who's who of like 60s, 70s era, you know, classic rock.
And it just has that vibe of like, like the muses are around or something.
And, you know, all these kind of bohemian, like, Interesting architecture, and it's great.
I love it.
And I had just moved there, and the pandemic had just hit.
And there was something very trippy about the pandemic as well, where like you're at home, and you know, all of a sudden you find yourself with like not that, at least I did.
I found myself with not as, you know, more time on my hands, not as much to do.
And you start to think about like more interesting ontological questions.
And so I was with a woman that I was kind of starting to see at the time, and She actually lived in Laurel Canyon as well.
And we were going on a walk.
And this was like, I don't know, like an hour into the walk or something.
Aliens come up.
And she was like, Do you believe in aliens?
And I was like, Yeah, actually, I'm kind of into aliens.
That's like an interest of mine.
At the time, it was a pretty serious interest of mine, but not as deep as I'd say now.
Okay, previous to any YouTube.
Yeah.
Okay.
Previous to any YouTube.
So I was investing out of Peter Thiel's family office.
That was my job.
And, you know, I had a serious interest in the UFO thing, but like, yeah, I never thought it would like turn into like, you know, me like interviewing a ton of people about it or anything like that.
And we're walking, and I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm kind of into aliens.
And then, and then I say, half jokingly, I go, I'd love to meet an alien.
And then she goes, it'll happen when you stop looking for it.
And as she says that, we're walking by a guy who has a metal detector.
And this is like sunset in Laurel Canyon, and he's like looking for something.
So it's like this bizarre.
Externalization of our conversations happening in reality.
It doesn't make any sense.
And this could be survivorship bias of me remembering that because that's what we said at the time.
I don't know.
But it's notably weird, right?
And we walk by this guy and a few moments pass and we hit this little clearing.
This is on Lookout Mountain in Laurel Canyon for anybody that knows Laurel Canyon.
And there's a little clearing and it's like this.
School bus shaped rectangle thing, uh, long, like, like, long, like this.
And it's, and it's just hovering, like, kind of right above the treetops, like maybe 50 feet ish.
And just, it just goes right over the treetops.
How far away from you?
Like 50 feet ish or 60 feet or something.
Like, not that high at all.
Any features, any notable features on this craft?
So, like, I'm, I'm afraid that, like, I'll, I'll botch the description of it.
Try.
Like, I want to say, like, like, like, like it looked like a flying car.
That's how weird it was.
Shape of a car?
Shape, well, more like a school bus because it was so long.
It was rectangular.
It was rectangular.
It wasn't like tapered at the ends.
It was not tapered at the ends.
No.
Honestly, it was so weird because it didn't look at all like what a flying saucer would, you know, or like, you know, anything that I'd ever.
You saw it from underneath then.
Yes.
Was the underside a different color than the sides of it?
No, it all kind of like this metallic gray.
And it did look like there were like components underneath it.
But they didn't, to me, it wasn't clear like what purpose they were looking at a muffler or an exhaust or anything like that.
No, no.
And there was some sound, but it almost felt like a humming thing.
Like it didn't seem like this, like definitely not worthy of like the exhaust necessary in a chemical combustion context to like keep that amount of mass in the sky.
And then.
She said, so that it like floats over the treetop, and we're both just like, what the fuck is that?
And I actually just DM'd her on Instagram and sent her a video because it was this.
I'll send, I'll play this for you after the show, or maybe you can even play it.
Yeah, we'll play it then.
Because it was like the closest thing to what I had seen.
Okay.
And I don't know if this video is fake or real or what it is, but it looked, and she responded being like, yeah, that looks exactly like what we saw.
Cool.
So, you know, but I, yeah.
And then she said, Kept going and then it vertically descended, like, you know, some ways off.
And I didn't see that.
Into the treetops.
Into the treetops.
So, into the forest?
Was this like a wooded area?
Yeah, Lower Canyon is extremely wooded.
And so, yeah.
No houses or businesses or anything.
No, that's a weird thing.
It's like very residential.
There are houses.
So, I don't know what that means as far as where it landed or broad daylight.
No, it was night.
It was late in the night.
Yeah, it was sunset ish, like a little after sunset.
Okay.
So, the UV clearly was dark though.
Yeah.
Do you have any regrets not pulling your phone out?
I'll tell you about the other couple of times I've seen UFOs, and I didn't in those cases either.
And actually, the next case, that was like the most long duration.
And whenever I've seen a UFO, I always feel like this is kind of sacred.
And I don't know.
I don't even feel like I should.
It feels like sacrilegious.
And I know that sounds insane.
It's just so funny because I bet the aliens are like, what is he waiting for?
He's your phone out.
You wanted to see us.
Let's go.
What are you doing?
That's true.
Yeah.
Okay, can you walk us through?
I want to sit on this one for a second because I'm trying to imagine myself, and I'm sure the audience is the same right now.
We're trying to imagine ourselves like, what would you do?
You walk into the woods with somebody you kind of just started to get to know, and you see this thing.
Does your heart skip?
Is there any part of you that is frightened?
Is this a calm interaction, or is this just you trying to make sense sort of prosaically of this object the whole time?
I was super excited.
Like it, because I'm, I don't know, I'm like a like intense sort of truth seeker or whatever.
And I, especially initially in the UFO thing, you're like, you look at the whole subject and you're like, this is kind of quacky and insane.
And then you, you build this like probability thing where, you know, even like, I think it's like Richard Dawkins, you know, the, the kind of the priest, the high priest of the citadel that is like modern scientific skepticism or whatever.
Like he has some quote and I'm paraphrasing here where it's like, The probability something, it's like the multiplication of like the probabilities of something being true and the implications of it being true is like how much you should study the thing.
So I think it's like 5% aliens, you should be spending a lot of time on aliens because like that's the implications are like, you know, that part of the equation is so high.
So, you know, at the time I was really oscillating around like, you know, how serious is this whole world is so quacky.
And so every time I've had a firsthand experience, it's just like, wow, this is a.
To me, I mean, there's so many people that the modern, I think, paradigm is don't trust your eyes.
It's like you need some sensor data.
It's like the Galileo project, you know, Avi Loeb at Harvard.
It's like you need like some objective scientific sensor.
I think your eyes are all you have.
And like, actually, you know, an abstract scientific measurement going through your eyes should, you know, not necessarily be more trustworthy.
That somebody else, by the way, is reporting to you, but who has more credentials or something.
But like, you're supposed to trust that more than like a thing you saw.
Like, that doesn't really make sense.
And yeah, you should be like, You know, wary of like maybe somebody put a flare up or like, you know, I went to this, you went on a cruise for like C5 or something.
Yeah, you should be skeptical, you know, think about all you're a magician.
You should think about all the ways in which, you know, that could have been orchestrated.
But, um, yeah, but we can, you know, I can go down that road all day with everything.
And I explained this to you last night.
As a magician, it's our job to come up with a method to an effect.
So if you give me an effect as a magician, I can give you a method.
It's not that I go, well, I guess there's no methods.
I guess it is an alien.
No, I can give you a method for every single sighting ever in the context of a magic trick.
Absolutely.
Using psychology and memory techniques and all types of things.
I would never apply it, I would always do it in my own head and be like, okay.
But then I would weigh that against, oh, what was the point of that?
What was the point of lying to me about this?
Right.
Yeah.
Or, yeah.
So, I think you are right.
I think there is like validity to someone's own sighting.
And if not just for that immediate recognition, but for how that might have changed you.
Yeah.
Do you see that event having anything to do with the journey you're on today?
That's a great question.
I think, yeah, that in combination with the next.
Sighting, which was like, I don't know, six months ish after that, six to nine months.
Yeah.
So I was in Silver Lake with a buddy who actually invests with me and is a pretty prominent investor and actually is a complete like materialist atheist, like doesn't believe in any of this stuff.
And I did, I was just starting to like, you know, try to convince him that like maybe there's a there there, but yeah, very skeptical, like is a believer in like David Hume and Noam Chomsky and like, you know, kind of very rash, hyper rationalist guy.
And, um, And so we went surfing that day and we're back at his place.
And it was a weekend, it was like Saturday or Sunday.
And we are doing holotropic breath work because I'd been into it at the time.
And I think it's a really cool thing.
Yeah, I don't know if you're familiar with it.
I know John Mack was teaching that to a lot of the abductees as well to get them to try and calm down during these abductions so that they could recall.
Yep.
Yeah, exactly.
And it's an amazing technique.
It was developed by Stanislav Groff, who's this Hungarian, I guess, psychiatrist, I think.
And it involves like hyperoxygenation.
So just like breathing.
A lot and rapidly, like, you know, almost like hyper, like intentional hyperventilation or something.
And, you know, actually, I think the goal is like an hour in your, you know, you're out of body, you have like a DMT, like an endogenous DMT release or something.
But we were, we were five minutes into our, you know, breath work and your hands can sometimes clam up and his did.
And so we had to stop for a second.
And as soon as we stop, we look up and we see two silvery, Orbs and one's hovering above him, one's hovering above me, and they're both sort of like bobbing.
Just not, they don't look at all like, you know, a drone.
They're way too high to be drones.
They're definitely not planes.
And he then looks to me and I think I go, What the F is that?
And he looks to me and he goes, Oh, I think that might be that secret Lockheed deck or something.
And then, you know, a second goes by, he looks back at me and he goes, Dude, those are not from here.
And especially, I think, with the holotropic thing.
And, you know, I think, again, a debunker would say.
You're a little lightheaded.
Sure.
Yeah.
Don't trust your eyes, especially if you're in an altered state.
And maybe it didn't take an hour for you guys to get in an altered state.
It took five minutes or whatever.
But I would say, you know, like, you know, that stuff probably widens the doors of your perception.
And maybe you are seeing a thing that exists in fundamental reality.
But, you know, actually, Rick Strassman, you know, he wrote DMT, the spirit molecule.
He talks about DMT as like, it's like night vision, it's like another sensor modality.
And I'm not saying, you know, who knows if DMT was released, it probably was not.
But I think the two things that are repeatable in the UFO world, if you are looking at this scientifically and looking for repeatability, I think it's consciousness and nuclear.
And so I think to me, that points towards us being in sort of a low level simulation.
And I don't know what these UFOs are.
Maybe they're kind of, you know, envoy von Neumann replicators, and you see a little node light up and it's around, you know, some sort of conflict a la the three body problem, or, you know, somebody's experimenting with the scientific thing that, like, you know, we're not quite ready for yet.
Or maybe you each had your own sort of UFO that you were assigned to.
Rendering Reality Internally00:12:30
Maybe.
And you raised some red flag and they both came to see what was going on.
Well, it was interesting that one was kind of bobbing.
There were two, and they were kind of bobbing up.
It's hard to say whether one was directly above me.
Like, how's your human doing?
I don't know.
They're both kind of just laying there out of breath.
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah.
I mean, you get into all sorts of thought experiments of like, where does thought come from?
And, you know, who knows?
So, after you're saying after that event, that was more convincing with that sighting, would you say, than the previous one?
More convincing that that was not from here?
Maybe insofar as it was because it may be a little more cut and dry with the, the, The holotropic breath work stuff.
Yeah.
But also, I mean, the previous one, you know, you had said, I want to see an alien.
I want to meet an alien.
Yeah.
And then she said something amazing, which I think is the best advice.
I agree.
And with everything, you'll see it when you stop looking.
Yes.
You know, for you to see it right after that moment, I think has merit too.
I agree.
I agree.
And I think that, again, that's often.
Okay.
I've spoken with a prominent journalist who.
Has gone on a very big podcast.
I just don't want to identify this guy with that, but he basically had like he told, he like everybody knows who this guy is.
Yeah, I know who you're talking about.
Okay.
Yeah, you probably, yeah, there you go.
You're good.
And like he told a UFO story and he had to leave the details out of like the fact that he went searching, like he kind of like had a question going into the, you know, UFO experience and that the UFO resolved his experience.
And so, like, often there are little details left out of UFO experiences that the person thinks will marginalize it.
And they have to do with the fact that the UFO thing is like extremely synchronistic.
Like, it makes them sound slightly schizo or something.
And they'll always leave that part out.
And then, if you think about the UFO as kind of just one class of asynchronicity, then like your whole life is actually often like that if you take notice, if you take note of the synchronicities.
And like, this is, I think it's a very common thing.
You know, Carl Jung wrote a book about it.
And there are plenty of people who are extremely receptive to these sorts of things.
And so, yeah, it's unfortunate with the UFO thing where we, because it's looked at as this possibly, you know, interesting propulsion breakthrough in, you know, in science or whatever, we have to somehow discard those very real facts around them.
Yeah.
And it's much like if you look at Betty and Barney Hill, they kind of went through the same thing with the testimony that Betty had.
On one hand, if you look at the testimony that was given to the Air Force, it was very cut and dry, nuts and bolts.
Here's the time, here's the elevation, here's the rotation, here's the lights, the colors, the speed, the size, all the sort of like data points.
Yep.
And then over here, it was, you know, it froze me and there's the beings and I connected with them.
And like all that was left out of the Air Force thing, right?
Because I think the story is going to change based on who it is you're talking to.
And so if you're definitely speaking to someone who you think, who you believe, Isn't ready for such information, then you're going to omit that.
And so, in today's landscape, I think conversations like these are really healthy because it does allow people.
And I read the comments a lot where there's, I'm sure you get them too, and messages of people like, I've never told anyone this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And they suddenly feel like it's okay to open up about their experience.
It's just so beautiful.
But you're right.
In the context of the scientific review, those things, we feel the need to have to omit them.
Even though there might be actual science behind them, they just feel a little too far removed from the conventional data.
Totally.
Well, what I would say is if there is an intelligence on the other side that wants to be known, but wants to be known by the right nodes, distribution nodes on our side, that you should actually be extremely transparent and candid and then just let the chips fall where they may.
I'll give you an example.
I could have artificially come up with descriptions around that school bus.
I actually felt a little like, Insecure.
I was like, I don't really remember, man.
Yeah.
You know, but like, it's, I think, whatever that is, the, and I believe there is a non human intelligence, I think they could fully audit everything going on inside of you.
And so you just have to be extremely brutally honest.
There's in the telepathy tapes, one of my favorite quotes, I don't remember which kid says this, says, You don't get my powers if you lie.
Yeah.
John Paul, isn't it?
John Paul.
Maybe John, but that would make sense.
Yeah.
John Paul, or was it the other?
Is it Houston?
Houston, Houston.
It might be Houston, actually.
Yeah.
And I think that's so beautiful.
And I think it's actually around the parapsychology stuff, too, which points to this these random event generator experiments where you take this binary computer, it's tied to something that is supposedly random in quantum mechanics.
So, radioactive isotope decay or a photon bouncing around a box, whatever.
And a person can, in a statistically significant way, Uh, uh, skew the output towards ones or zeros.
It's supposed to be this perfect digital coin flip, and it seems like the data kind of cuts against that, which points to us sort of rendering our reality.
And if you talk to people who are involved in these experiments, they often say the more heart centered and honest I feel and internally aligned I feel, the more of a skewing effect you can get.
And if you, if you extrapolate that outwards, it's really your like kind of mind matter effect in reality itself, like your ability to progress.
Through the world that we're in is actually dependent on your sort of internal harmonization and your ability to, you know, get through blocks yourself and just be like fully, you know, yeah.
And you can take a practical example to that too is like, is it easier to get somewhere if you work together or work against each other?
Yeah.
You know, it's a very dumbed down example, but of course, cooperation and helping each other out and looking out for each other is going to yield a better result, right?
So if you translate that into even like some type of like quantum interface that you might have.
Well, leading with the heart should yield a better result than being combative or skeptic or whatever that is.
So, naturally, I think it just, it's like going with the current instead of against it.
Totally.
I agree.
You know, you look at a lot of religious pictures, it always, I always, that's always stood out to me too.
You see these beaming hearts.
It's always these hearts with like this golden light around it, right?
And these angels are just like emanating this love.
It's always like this sort of care bear energy of like, it's all love.
It's all good.
It's all love.
And like, love seems to be like that heart centered emotion.
And it's always coming from the sky.
It's always, you know what I mean?
And, and so, you know, perhaps that was their way of like trying to communicate to us that, hey, that's the key.
And if the more we look into this, the more we're seeing that, you know, it might not be the only key, but it seems to be the one that is the easiest to access and the one that is the most productive.
Yeah, I think it really is.
And, you know, we were just talking about this book, Transurfing Reality.
And I think his name is Vladim Zeland.
And it's all about sort of, you know, this is a really interesting model of like time travel.
And you have these various lifelines and you interact with these sort of energy systems called pendulums, which feed off of your energy.
And you can't avoid the pendulums altogether, but you have to like pick the good pendulums.
And the whole thing exists in its own idiosyncratic world and it involves a lot of kind of jargon.
It's very interesting.
But like the fundamental thing, as far as being able to kind of manifest what you want in life, is being heart centered and operating from the heart.
And I think that is very fundamental and very important.
It's easier said than done.
It's something you can't fake.
You know, it's kind of, you can't talk about it in the abstract and then not do it and somehow achieve a result.
You know, it's, it's, It's, yeah, it is or it isn't.
And there is still like this objective, there has to still be this objective view of consensus reality on some level.
Of course.
But it makes you think like how you can affect it on a macro scale if we all came together and did something, right?
Because you can change a one into a zero.
Yeah.
And that might over the long run end up getting you that success you wanted or that relationship or whatever that is in life, that little manifesting that you've been sort of fine tuning and getting to, and that might disappear.
But what does that look like on a large scale?
Yeah.
You know, like if we all got together and just decided, hey, let's make one of these things appear and then we just congene it out of nothing and it just kind of appears, right?
Like, is that possible considering the sort of micro scale that we have now of turning these ones into zeros?
What does that look like?
Right.
Well, you, I mean, this brings up all these epistemological questions of what is reality itself?
There's like a concept, you know, called in egregore, like a consensus thought form.
And like, is everything a consensus thought form?
Just make things happen and things are only existing because all of us are thinking about it.
And there's no way to disprove that.
I do think, in the case of the random event generator thing, it's like you healing yourself and manifesting what you want in your life is contagious.
And so I think that should be your kind of prime directive versus trying to kind of get everybody together and like summon a thing.
Of course.
The latter feels like, you know, kind of a perversion of what.
But what does that look like when we're all on the same page?
Like, what do you think?
You know, do you often like think, like, what could we achieve?
Like, if we did, like, if you could have one person turn some ones and zeros, okay.
Or, like, there's that famous plant experiment where they had the plant in the middle of the room or in the corner of the room.
You know, this one, and they shine a light in the room.
And basically, the light would shine.
It was in one corner and it was on a random sort of generator where the light would shine randomly into one of the corners, right?
And so it should be 25%.
But when they introduced a plant in the corner, it went more towards the plant.
Like, the plant needed to survive.
The universe felt that and it wanted to thrive.
That's fascinating.
And it changed the randomness a little bit, just changed a few ones into zeros so that the plant would have a better chance of surviving.
That's so fascinating because we think of heliotropy as, you know, a plant growing towards the sun, but you don't think about it as the, you know, the opposite, where this seemingly unconscious digital thing, you know, or not digital, but, you know, whatever, you know, light, mechanical thing is actually attracted to the plant itself.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
And it's more about like, it makes you question what's the fundamental law there?
What is happening?
Is it, is it, Is it the plant needing to survive or is it the universe itself, you know, surviving through the plant and saying, you know, this is part of me and I need that to grow?
Well, yeah.
I mean, I think we are, we don't see reality.
I think we render reality.
And so you have like this guy, Donald Hoffman, talking about how we don't see like, you know, electromagnetic waves, right?
Like we'll see like the RBG spectrum and we iconize everything we see into like a table or the microphone or, you know, whatever.
And, um, I think that could apply to everything we see.
And, and, and if you actually look at like the Roger Penrose, you know, so, you know, this is physicist who, you know, he worked on a bunch of stuff with Hawking and black holes.
And then, and then he started getting into consciousness.
And I think he is very interesting.
I don't know if it's correct.
And I think way too many people kind of assume everything this, this anesthesiologist that works with him, Stuart Hameroff says is like, you know, exactly how consciousness works.
I think it's way too reductionist and physicalist.
So.
I'll caveat it with that.
But I think as a mental model, it's very interesting as to how consciousness works.
And it's called orchestrated objective reduction.
And it answers the question of why do we not see probabilistic reality?
So, just as I iconize the RBG electromagnetic waves, why do I not see quantum probabilities?
Why do I see relativistic, macroscopic, discrete reality?
I just see one, Chris Ramsey.
It's not this like Schrodinger like wave of many possibilities, Chris Ramsey.
Rediscovering Ancient Truths00:06:10
Yeah.
And I think it points to the fact that we are rendering reality internally.
Sure.
That wave function collapse actually occurs within the brain.
And so, if that's the case, then like I am rendering something that is different.
My map inside my head is different than the territory.
And the random event generator might not actually be explained by me, you know, emitting some sort of photon or some, you know, some, some like, you know, unobtainium particle or whatever that like we, you know, science hasn't discovered yet to affect the thing in.
The material world, but it actually just shows that maybe the whole material world is sort of somewhat rendered inside of me.
Yeah, not just you.
Not me, obviously, everybody.
Because I see the same thing you see.
That's right.
And then there's some sort of consensus collapsing function between all of us.
Yeah, no, you can't be.
This ends in solipsism if it's just a single person or whatever.
But yeah, no, there's some sort of like consensus then that like, you know, reduces that on a macroscopic.
Yeah, so how do you.
That's what I'm saying is like, What happens when we start affecting that, you know, rather than individually?
And we have these little goals because what if I want to manifest, you know, something and you want to manifest the opposite?
Like, who wins?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
So, like, what does that look like when you get multiple people manifesting or, you know, sort of collapsing these wave functions together?
You know, how big of a change can you create?
How big of a sort of, you know, thing can you just make appear?
Like, what is the limit to that?
I think that's really exciting.
I think so too.
I think so too.
And I think we're living in a kind of, you know, an axial age, so to speak, of like the former meaning structures are just like not as charismatic as they like.
Organized religion is in decline.
And then science itself feels like it's sort of slowing down.
Yeah, stagnant.
It's stagnant.
And so it feels like we're actually on the verge of a really cool paradigm shift.
And often this occurs not at the peaks of civilization, but at the trough.
So, like, the decline of Rome is when Christianity really took off.
And what's in store for us next as far as a meaning system that makes sense in a capitalist world of high growth and high fertility across the Western world and other parts of the world?
Yeah, maybe it doesn't make sense for other parts of the world, actually.
But to the extent it makes sense in the Western world context, it's starting to not make as much sense.
And so you grow up in this context, and like you have like wage stagnation, you know, like, you know, the manufacturing base of like the Western world sort of being outsourced, and you have this like agency outsourcing.
Like all of the tech is like kind of dystopian and not super charismatic.
It's all in the world of bits and not the world of atoms.
Like if you look at like any sort of urban, you know, environment, it looks the exact same as it did in the 70s or whatever.
So how do you grow up in that environment and think that, you know, and not be like extremely nihilistic?
Your de facto religion is the Richard Dawkins, Neil deGrasse Tyson thing of like, this is just a happy accident.
How do you move on in that?
And so you need something else.
And just because you need it doesn't mean you can come up with something in a contrived way.
But I do think earnestly searching in these areas, in these sort of like bizarro anomaly space or whatever, and then trying to connect that to ancient religions and science itself is like, you know, probably a worthy pursuit in this.
Kind of macro context.
I don't like using the simulation word because it feels like a video game.
I don't think it's a video game at all.
No, well, that's the nihilistic version of the simulation.
But there's like a Platonic, extremely meaningful version of the simulation where it's like, what's outside of the simulation?
Like, level up to the thing.
There's something aspirational about it.
Yeah, exactly.
But you look back and just the idea of everything is mental is exactly that.
It's like everything is in your head.
Nothing actually exists.
Nothing is there without.
The observer.
Without consciousness, nothing exists.
Consciousness is the fundamental sort of thing that we experience, and it's what makes physical, our physical reality a real thing.
You know, but I feel like we're just on a really complicated trajectory to rediscovering what we already know in some sense.
Yeah.
And, but I think it's healthy because I think we got to a point where we weren't satisfied with the answers because we have new instruments to sort of measure reality.
That we say, well, we have these new instruments.
It's our duty to take these instruments and, you know, pin them up against these theories that we've had forever.
And now it's time to question.
It's a very brave thing to do and to, you know, emancipate from religion like that, like we did.
It takes a lot of guts and a lot of people, you know, got burned at the stake for stuff like that.
But all in all, it's so fun.
And interesting to see that all these instruments and everything else, as we got further away, are leading us back to what seemingly we already knew, you know.
And it's very, very, very cool to understand that.
Now, some people find that very frustrating because they don't want to go back because they think, like, oh no, we've gone away from that.
But it's just such a beautiful full circle moment that we get to do that with these modern instruments and then sort of find peace there and be like, oh, yeah, we're good again, you know?
Yeah, totally.
And a lot of scientists get sort of mystical, I think, at the end of their tenure or even, you know, some great accomplishment and they say, you know, it just leads you to God.
One of my favorite philosophers is this 19th turn of the century, turn of the 19th century Austrian philosopher named Rudolf Steiner.
And he has this model of a you, and at the left top of the you, you are in communion with God.
And then you have the classic kind of, you know, the fall of man.
And then, you know, at the bottom of the you, it could be like, you know, kind of enlightenment era, you know, Nietzsche proclaiming God is dead.
And then, you know, on the right top of the you, you have, Re communion with God, but by our own volition, free will.
And I always found that to be an interesting sort of model.
Scientists Finding God00:07:39
Yeah.
And you're describing an arc.
And what good story doesn't have an arc?
So when I think of a lot of people that have gone through, hey, they were raised religious, they've become atheist, and now they've stayed there.
Well, that's two points and that makes a line.
That's not much of an arc.
It takes that other, that bottom and that.
Questioning and everything else for you to grow and for you to learn.
And then that arc is complete.
And that makes a good story.
And there's a reason why we're attracted to good stories.
Right.
And I don't want my story to just be a line.
I like the arc.
And so I want to, I want to explore that.
And I want to make this a full, you know, enjoyable story for myself.
And I think it's important to, I think it's important, like you said, to recognize that, that, you know, although that, that's the trajectory.
I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's right for everyone.
And we, you know, who knows?
Maybe you've got a thousand lies to figure that out.
But I do believe that, like naturally speaking, that that seems more fulfilling than just, you know, Richard Dawkins'ing my entire life and just dying and falling into nothing, I guess.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't seem too great.
Yeah.
And either way, either way, we're both going to go there, right?
So you might as well enjoy.
Yeah, true.
And look forward to something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, not something I would have said maybe 10 years ago, though.
So it's interesting.
Yeah.
Let's go to the third sighting.
Okay.
Yeah, the third sighting is with Lou Elizondo, so famous, you know, UFO whistleblower.
Involved in OSAP.
Never heard of him.
Yeah.
Who's that guy?
You know, and there's obviously controversy surrounding him, but he was nice enough to host Amar, my good friend from Yes Theory.
Shout out to Amar and I at his house.
I think in like 2021 or 2020.
It was end of 2021.
No, sorry, end of 2022.
And we're all hanging out by his shed.
And he is talking about how he's a very smart, pretty polymathic guy.
And he's talking about how the sun is kind of a nuclear fusion reactor.
And he's getting deep into like the science.
And we'd had an interesting day.
And he had said, actually, like, you know, he had mentioned that like the UFO phenomena had followed him around and entered his house.
And that's a common thing in the UFO world where you study it in a government context.
All those guys, you know, Colm Kelleher, Bigelow, like all of them had experiences that were paranormal after doing what they did, you know, on Skinwalker Ranch.
I guess in Bigelow's case, he was the patron, but you know.
And so we had that context in mind.
And Amar actually, you know, had been.
Really wanting to see a UFO.
I don't think he had seen one up until that point.
And so we're deep in conversation on this sort of crazy science stuff.
And we just see over the shed, hard to gauge distance, but pretty far off in the distance.
I don't know, maybe 5,000, 10,000 meters.
I don't know.
Hard to say.
We see a green fireball just shoot up.
And all of us are just like, what the fuck?
And I think specifically, Lou had said that he had seen green fireballs in his house, and that's in imminent.
That's in imminent.
He might have even told us that that day.
I don't remember, but that was pretty wild seeing something with him.
Interesting.
Was this in a clearing?
No, no.
I mean, the whole night sky was super clear.
Like there were no trees around.
So it was in the sky?
Yeah, it was in the sky.
It wasn't like low tree level or anything.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
You weren't elevated.
It was up.
Oh, it was in the sky.
And you saw it shoot across?
Yeah, I saw it shoot across to the shed that we were right next to kind of obstructed it at a certain point.
It was very fleeting.
Fast?
Very fast.
Yeah.
Could have been like a meteorite or something.
Totally could have been a meteorite.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it was that far that it could have been in orbit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It could have been in orbit.
But nonetheless, interesting that you mentioned that and that green orbs, you know, are what he said.
And then that's what you saw.
So again, like, I don't, I mean, I don't know.
Yeah.
No, I'm, there's, there's no way we're going to get to the bottom of what that was.
Yeah.
But I'd like to, I'd like to think that, you know, I always say this, even the sightings that I've had, I can't tell.
I'm not smart enough to tell you what they are.
I don't have enough data.
I don't know whether they're anything of substance, but I know how they made me feel.
Yeah, exactly.
And I'd like to think that that's exactly how I'd feel if I did see a real craft.
Yeah.
And I do think, you know, this is partially maybe backtracking on my earlier statement of like, your eyes are like the most important thing to trust.
I do think looking for repeatable patterns with the UFO thing is important and interesting.
And unfortunately, due to the scientific paradigm, Basically, discounting anything dealing with consciousness.
Like, if you're having a psychedelic trip and breath work, they're just going to write it off forever.
And there's no way you can say, oh, it's like a window into a thing that's actually objective, but like it's like night vision.
You're just seeing another part of the spectrum.
You know, there's no way to win that argument.
But I do think, like, the nuclear employees, like Robert Hastings' work and all these nuclear employees seeing stuff in the sky, I take that probably.
More seriously than my own experiences.
Those people are drug tested and like, yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
They're on the PRP program.
So they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen.
They're guarding kind of the crown jewels of American defense.
You could say they're under high stress because of, you know, a lot of this stuff was like sort of Cold War era.
But at the same time, they see like kind of a repeatable architecture.
They often see green, red, you know, white balls of light, saucers, tic tacs, you know, typical UFO structures that you see.
And they're often tampering with the comms links or shutting down missile silos, or, you know, in certain cases, people even claim to, you know, board crafts.
And so, yeah, I would, I would, you know, put more stock in that from like a consensus scientific, you know, standpoint.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Even then, my own experiences.
Sure.
Yeah.
That's what I mean for me as well.
Yeah.
I would probably trust them a little bit more, but I'm sure they're smart enough to also question their own, you know, sightings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it's tough.
I think some of these guys, they get so much pushback from the consensus people, and they have these other kind of brothers in arms who've experienced the same thing where they're like, what the, like, why wouldn't you believe me?
You know, and so I think, and then that causes them to dig their heels in a little bit more and probably just not, you know, doubt what they, and in certain cases, they have physical marks from, you know, the abductions, and there's no arguing with the fact that the missile silos were down and the stories get changed in the way that they're reported to like sort of mainstream press.
So, like, I do think at that point, I understand some of them being like, what the fuck?
Like, I'm not lying, you know?
But, but yeah, I mean, I always think, you know, a little dose of humility is good for everybody.
Okay.
Let me ask you this.
This is a, we're going to, we're going to jump ship a little bit to a little bit of a thought experiment.
Which UFO story do you so badly want to be real?
And I'm not saying, I'm not saying you believe it.
Yeah.
I'm saying, which one do you want to be real?
Humility in Revelation00:01:43
I don't know.
I, I, my like genuine answer to that question is, I don't know if I have one where I'm like, this, this one, like I hold more weight in.
But that's not the question.
Yeah.
I'm not asking if you hold weight in it.
If I want it to be real.
Yeah.
So, like, for instance, oh, like that, like somehow would create like a world that's like better or more interesting than the others.
Dumb example, ET.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, that one's cool.
Do you know, but like, I like that one.
But out of all the UFO stories that you've heard, of all like actual real UFOs, Travis to Bob to anything at all, to TTB to like, you know, obviously that might be the answer.
Yeah.
I love the Townsend Brown one because he like, he like downloaded it, it was like a zip file of like all of his work.
He was spent a lot of time in Catalina and this was, I think he was like 17 years old and he interacted with this orb.
It said it approached him.
This is his daughter recounting this.
And he just downloaded his life's work.
And his life had everything to do with like exotic high voltage experimentation that, you know, could eventually possibly lead to gravity manipulation.
And, you know, we only have four forces in physics and only two of them are long range and only one of them we can, you know, make any use of in a lab or in the physical world.
And, you know, that's just so inspiring.
It's like the fact that you can get some sort of revelatory like hierophany, as like Diana Pasolka would say, and that would lead to your life's work is so, that's so cool.
So I would say that one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
By the way, my Discord said they're playing a drinking game every time you said Thomas Townsend Brown or Ontology.