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Jan. 20, 1997 - Bill Cooper
01:19:36
Travis Walton
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Time Text
Bye bye power, the power, it is the power of the dark.
And in time, once out of the blue, your climax is in the fire.
And in time, once out of the blue, your climax is in the fire.
I'm William Cooper.
You're listening to the Hour of the Time. I'm William Cooper. Ladies and gentlemen,
today you're going to hear a broadcast that was originally aired on June 25, 1993. It
is an interview that I conducted with Travis Walton in a small park in a small town in
east central Arizona called Snowflake, where Travis Walton lives.
And...
And what you're going to hear is incredible in ways.
You're also going to hear the first shifting of a story that was told on the night of the occurrence by those involved who were with Travis Walton when he was supposedly abducted by an extraterrestrial spacecraft, none of whom said that at the time.
And five days later, when Travis Walton began to tell his story, Initially, no one saw a spacecraft of any kind.
No one saw a flying disc or disc-shaped object or craft at all.
What they saw, and what they told the police and the sheriff's department and others who interviewed them, was that they saw a very bright light in the woods that appeared to be hovering in or just above the trees, back in the trees, not right at the side of the road.
No one saw what the light was or what the light was attached to, ladies and gentlemen.
None of them ventured an explanation as to what it was.
But then they began to conjecture, and others began to conjecture, that it may have been a UFO, and that Travis Walton might have been abducted.
And since then, the story has escalated.
Listen to the story as Travis Walton tells it to me, in this park, in his own words.
This broadcast and this interview has not been changed in any way.
It has not been edited at all.
And the only thing that you're not going to hear is the traditional hour-of-the-time lead-in music and the traditional sign-off and lead-out music.
You're going to hear the broadcast exactly as it was aired on June 25, 1993.
You will clearly hear the beginning of some fabrication.
But you're also going to hear him tell you that he didn't know what it was, that he never saw any alien or extraterrestrial beings, that he really didn't know what happened to him.
The only time that he said that he regained any consciousness during that entire five days was just for a few moments when he felt as if he was suffocating.
He was in a full-blown hysterical panic, during which sort of episode one is likely to see
anything, ladies and gentlemen.
And he describes seeing some kind of humanoid creatures.
He doesn't know what they were.
He does not say that they were aliens or extraterrestrial, nor does he imply that they are.
And then listen to his testimony now.
Just recently he was on an episode of Sightings, where not only did he come to, but he looked around and saw extraterrestrial beings walk down hallways and did things on what he identified as a spaceship.
All kinds of elaborations.
What I'm trying to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, is what began as a mystery that no one knew
the answer to, certainly had nothing to do with UFOs or extraterrestrial beings or anything
else, has now... has now fully exploded into a full-blown extraterrestrial abduction spacecraft
and is now being used as a weapon against the world. And that is the story of the UFO.
And I'm going to tell you a story about the UFO. And I'm going to tell you a story about,
And then later, it began to develop.
And after this is over, we'll talk about what you have heard.
But until you've heard it, there really isn't much to talk about.
So, ladies and gentlemen, Right after this, we will get right into it and let you
make up your own mind about what really happened in Arizona.
This is a video of a man who was shot dead in a car crash in the state of Arizona on
a motorcycle.
He was shot dead in a car crash in the state of Arizona on a motorcycle.
What is the purpose of the schedule?
You say on your program that it's not a religious show, yet you talk at length.
Folks, our purpose is simply this.
You're right, it's not a religious show, never was intended to be, and never will be.
However, most of what is happening in the world today is caused by religious events that happened thousands of years ago, and hundreds of years ago, and some just yesterday.
I'm going to tell you now our purpose, our beliefs, our creed, if you will, what we hope to accomplish can be summed up very simply, and you may quote me.
Number one, I am a messenger.
Make no mistake about that.
My purpose and the purpose of those who help in this cause and the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence is to wake the sheeple Empower the people, save freedom for the world, understanding that freedom cannot exist without God.
We believe that none of this can happen unless all the secrets are unlocked and all of the truth is opened and bared to the light of day.
We must live our lives from a point of truth.
We must not accept the deceptions and the manipulations that are aimed at us, that are
meant to capture our attention and spin us around in little cul-de-sacs, that are bent
upon pitting us against each other and creating great wars to decimate our populations and
control us and line the pockets of those who are the controllers.
We believe that secrets must end.
Deception must end.
Manipulation must end.
We believe that all peoples must live their lives by the truth and by the truth only, and we believe that every single person up on the face of this earth must become responsible for their actions, for their countries, and for the world.
We believe that racism is inherently evil and must be eradicated from the face of this earth, and this must be done quickly and completely, or we will be facing a war between the races that will be the bloodiest, most disruptive, most painful, most terrible war that has ever been fought in the history of the world.
We believe that the Constitution of the United States of America and the first ten amendments, known as the Bill of Rights, are the only documents in the history of the world that have ever truly set man free.
We believe that those documents are the only barrier existing in the world right now between the common man and slavery, and that if the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights fall, For any reason, if they're destroyed, ripped apart, torn asunder, superseded, replaced, however you wish to term it, that freedom will disappear from the face of this earth.
Understand that.
We don't care where you live, what color you are, what language you speak, or what religion you attend.
Everyone in this world will lose all freedom if those documents fall.
Many of you in foreign countries wonder why we concentrate upon saving the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and don't address many of the issues in the rest of the world.
It's because you have already fallen.
You have already lost your freedoms, or you never had them to begin with.
Your hope lies with us.
It is the only hope for the world, and if we fail, you all fail.
We all fail.
Humanity will take a step backwards from which it may never recover.
Chew on that for a while, folks.
Tonight we're going to take you into the mind, into the experience of a man named Travis Walton.
You may have heard of him.
You may have seen the major motion picture that is making the rounds right now about his experience called Fire in the Sky.
Pay close attention.
This is a story that you don't want to miss.
It is one that is happening all over this country and around the world to many people Well, it was November 5th, 1975.
ignored by the major media and by most of the people of the world. Because it is being ignored, answers are not being
found, and people are manipulated by this experience. So listen closely. Help us find the answer.
Well, it was November 5th, 1975. There were seven of us, a group of men, working in the forest, cutting trees.
We'd just finished a long, hard day's work, and it was time to go home.
It was starting to get dark.
We loaded our chainsaws into the truck.
We were riding in a crew cab truck, a double cab truck, which is how seven people were able to fit into one vehicle.
And we headed home.
And as we were leaving the area, we noticed the light coming through the trees.
There was something strange about this light right off.
It was just out of place.
The woods are a very uniform environment.
You don't see these kind of things.
But the goal was coming from our right, up towards the top of the ridge.
The road we were on was heading up the ridge towards the Rim Road.
And there was thick trees between us and the source of this light.
And we could see this light coming through there.
And there was just something really weird about it from the start.
Everybody had been kind of chattering and carrying on and talking.
And although nobody said, hey, look at that, right off, you know, one by one, everybody
kind of fell silent and was looking off in the same direction I was looking.
Well, I figured that, you know, they were, they saw two at that point.
And as we drill, I was trying to, you know, figure out what this could be.
I thought it might be a hunter's camp there, maybe a forest fire or something.
Maybe a crashed airplane hanging up in a tree.
But when we finally got around to those trees where we could get a straight shot back up through there to see the source of this light, we saw a hunter there.
And we saw a large, glowing, disc-shaped object.
hovering in the sky and it was unmistakable.
Right off the bat, one of the guys in the back yelled out, This is space ship.
And the boss slammed on the brakes, stopped the truck.
What we saw was not some little point of light off in the sky.
It was not some glowing ball of gas or anything like that.
It was distinctly visible.
Definite, clear outline, mechanical edges.
It was a glowing metallic object.
It was the color of molten metal coming out of a blast furnace.
It was kind of a golden white color.
It just lit up the area with a strange sort of a glow.
Now, Travis, this is kind of important.
Did the skin of this object that you saw actually glow, or was this glow around it, or was it a product of a whole bunch of lights?
Well, there were darker areas that were dividing parts to it, but there was actually light coming from the crack.
It was not so bright that you couldn't look at it, but there actually appeared to be the surface of the crack was lit up.
There was a strange sort of glow that was kind of like there and not there.
It just kind of put a strange color to everything that was in the area.
Seeing this thing, I thought, you know, kind of like when you spot a wild animal in the woods, you know, you're just going to catch a glimpse and it'll be gone.
And so I thought that I'd missed a chance to see this thing up close, and so I got out of the truck and started towards this thing.
All the guys started yelling at me to get away from there and get back in the truck.
It was causing them a lot of anxiety, and I was pretty scared too.
I guess I was ramstamming a little bit.
At the same time, I was curious.
I wanted to see this thing up close.
So, as I went towards it, I could hear this strange sound that it was making.
It was a sound, you know, unlike anything I've ever heard before or since.
It was a very odd mixture of sounds.
There was some kind of a low rumble to it, a kind of a rhythmic pounding that seemed vibrate the ground my body is something you could more like
you could Feel them here, but there were also some high
Notes in there that were intermittent at the same time.
There was a kind of a horn to it like a turbine generator or something
Anyway It wasn't really loud. It was just kind of a sound that was
there was this a mechanical sound like machinery Sounds there was some machinery sounds but there were some
other tones there that were just things you didn't recognize
Yeah, something that I just hadn't heard before.
Kind of like, you know, it kind of gives you the feeling that you're hearing something that's kind of going off of the frequency range of your hearing, you know?
As I got closer to this thing, I slowed down because I was feeling, you know, a little bit more apprehension the closer I got to it because it didn't take off immediately.
But when I got closer to it, it did suddenly start to move.
And the sounds, there was a swell, a powerful swell in the sound that startled me.
And I jumped the cover behind a log that was sticking up out of a logging slash pile there.
I jumped down behind the end of this log and, you know, as a result, I was in danger.
I raised up and I felt an electric shock, kind of a numbing, it was almost like a physical
blow to my upper body that caused me to lose consciousness.
I just blacked out.
From that moment on I was out.
The men in the trucks, they saw a brilliant bolt of energy, they said it was kind of blue-green
in color, come out of the bottom of the craft, hit me in the upper body, head and chest area.
They said when it hit me that it made a sound, sort of a whoop kind of a sound, a popping
sound like a giant spark or something.
But they said it looked like an explosion.
They said it looked like a grenade had gone off in front of me.
And you don't remember this?
No, I don't remember this.
This is just based on their descriptions.
And some of those descriptions kind of vary.
One of the guys in the original police report I just got a hold of recently, Describe it as a long blue flame, you know, and some of them described it kind of like a lightning bolt or like a laser beam or something.
But anyway, they said that when it first hit me that it kind of stiffened me out and they said it threw me back through the air and they said when my body hit the ground that I hit just as limp like a ragdoll.
And they saw the dust boiling up around me and they thought I'd been fried.
They just immediately panicked and fled the scene.
There's been a lot of criticism directed at the men for leaving at that point.
Everyone imagines that in such circumstances they would be more heroic and stand their ground, but I think it's an unfair judgment.
People think they might react one way and might be surprised when they're actually confronted with a situation.
The truth is no one really knows until it happens to them personally, and everybody probably would react in a different way.
It's unfair in my estimation to judge that kind of Well, you know, this issue of bravery or cowardice there is something that came up a lot, and the crew boss, who is my best friend, got a lot of flack over this.
You know, some people in the media were coming and interviewing, and one of the first questions was, how could you go off and leave your friend there?
You know, I think that he kind of projected this onto me, you know, he was having a big load of guilt dumped on him and he kind of felt that I felt that way.
Did he feel that you had originally raised this question?
I think he did and part of the problem between he and I that resulted in a falling out that
lasted several years was that my brother took great exception to this.
Especially while I was missing, asking him how he could possibly leave his brother.
So it led to some problems but I have to say that these guys were in a position where they
couldn't have done anything else.
They were facing an unknown threat and they had no weapon, they had no way of dealing
with this.
They could have found themselves in a similar situation, falling into someone's face as
me if they had tried to do anything about it.
So they drove away in panic and I was told that all the men were screaming at Mike to keep going and get him out of there.
But they said they drove up a quarter of a mile and had a very agitated discussion as to what to do.
They stopped the truck and hashed it out.
A lot of the men were saying, let's just get out of here and get some help.
A truck went by at that time or some hunters, deer hunters.
It was deer season at the time.
So they took off and tried to catch the truck and were unable to catch up with them.
So they decided that they had to go back.
Not everybody was in agreement with that, but the boss and a couple of the other guys in the truck that, you know, were feeling more responsible about the situation insisted.
There was some argument there about whether they would, you know, the ones that didn't want to go would just get out of the truck and stay there and wait for the others to go get help, but they were too scared to do that, so they all went back.
And the reason it's mentioned in that is because this is the departure that the movie takes from what actually happened.
In the movie, they show Mike going back alone, whereas they all went back.
And as they approached the area, they saw the craft rise up and streak off towards the northeast.
So they felt fairly secure in returning to the spot.
The northeast is the foot quarters area?
Yes.
Thank you.
Anyway.
That's very important.
Go ahead.
They were extremely terrified when they got there and they got a flashlight out and they said they went around the area.
They found my tracks where I got out of the truck and led up to the spot where I'd been hit and they couldn't find tracks going anywhere else.
But they made a search of the area calling out and When they couldn't find me, they decided they had to go report it.
Some of the guys were saying, let's just get some more help from, you know, the friends and family and get out there and see if maybe he did just wander off.
But, uh, they finally decided that they'd have to report it to the authorities.
Now, all this that you're telling us now, it's not your own memory of your own account.
No, no.
This is accounts that you've been told.
After this beam of light or energy or whatever it was hit you, you don't really remember anything for quite some time, do you?
Right.
When they got back to town, they called the local deputy and he came and interviewed them.
And he radioed his boss, the sheriff in the county seat, who came there.
Did they still work for the sheriff's department?
Some of them.
Well, the sheriff is now a county supervisor, and his under-sheriff is now driving a cocaine truck.
A cocaine truck.
And I think the other one is in law enforcement someplace else, the original deputy that took the report.
Anyway, the sheriff remarked that when he finally did arrive there, and this was almost two hours later, that some of the men were still crying, that they looked extremely distraught and upset.
But the sheriff and his men, although they could tell something really terrible had happened, immediately suspected that there had been foul play.
There's been a fight or something.
Maybe the men had killed me.
Chainsaws or something.
They had buried my body, hidden my body out there and just made up this story to cover up for the deed.
So, the sheriff organized a massive manhunt of the area.
It spanned four days.
Using helicopters, fixed-winged aircraft, men on horseback.
There were over 50 men out there.
And they were looking for a body.
And they failed to find a body, but they were still in the accusation of murder.
So the men requested a volunteer for polygraph tests.
The sheriff brought in their top examiner.
Uh, from the, uh, State Police, uh, Department of Public Safety, Cy Gilson, who tested the six men, and, uh, they passed.
It was originally announced that 5 past 1 was inconclusive, that they couldn't tell either way.
But I recently got a hold of the original police report, and it was privately told to the sheriff that the 6 men had
been telling the truth too.
But since he'd become upset with the examiner and walked out,
there was a text that he had to give it an official inconclusive.
But nevertheless, this brought a slip to rest in some people's minds, the idea that I'd been murdered.
But I think a lot of people weren't completely convinced until I turned up 5 days and 6 hours after I'd been taken.
Where did all this take place, Travis?
Well, the incident happened near the Rim Road in the Apache Sid Reef National Forest.
Is that the name of the road?
I mean, if somebody were to go look for it, would they look for the Rim Road?
Well, the Rim Road just stretches all the way across the forest.
It's near Turkey Springs.
Turkey Springs is the name of the contract that we were working on, and it actually happened on the contract.
We hadn't completely left the area before it happened.
Anyway, the first thing I recall after losing consciousness was I was lying on my back.
I was in a tremendous amount of pain.
I didn't come to real quickly.
I was just coming in and out.
By pain, Travis, what do you mean?
Did your arms hurt?
Did your legs hurt?
Did you have any broken bones?
It was kind of centered in my head and chest, but it seemed like it was all over.
It was just this ache or burning feeling all over me.
There was a light above me, and I could hear people moving around me.
And I remembered at one point there that approaching this thing and something hitting me.
But, uh, so I assumed that I had been hurt and taken to a hospital.
And it wasn't until I finally could focus my eyes and see that I saw these creatures standing over me.
And I, and I just, I just became afraid.
I just looked out.
You did remember this, that you came to slowly, you had this pain that centered in your head and chest area, and you saw what you described as creatures.
Could you be more specific?
What did these creatures look like?
They were human-like.
By that I mean they had two arms, two legs, hands, and like that.
But they were small, a little over four feet tall.
Hairless.
They had very large hair, hairless heads.
They were a kind of a chalky grayish white color.
And they had small features, like small nose, mouth, ears, except for their eyes.
Did they actually have a nose and have ears?
Yes, they did.
And... What was it about the eyes, then?
The eyes, the eyes were huge.
You know, they were just huge eyes.
They just seemed to look right through me.
I just had this strange feeling when they looked at me.
There was a kind of an impersonal quality there, just a kind of a coldness.
There was also a feeling of great intelligence.
You know, just in dealing with people, when you look at somebody, you kind of look into
their eyes and for some reason you can always gauge very accurately a person's level of
intelligence by looking in their eyes.
And I got the feeling of a very high level of intelligence, but at the same time, they
seemed to be completely indifferent to my hysteria.
I was screaming, I just was hysterical.
There must have been some other quality about them that caused you to feel, whatever it
was, that caused you to go into hysterics as you described it.
I'm trying to use your words so that I don't put anything on this that may not be there.
You know, a lot of people, they try to picture this, well, you know, as the ten-foot jelly
masses, you know.
They see these things on TV or theater or movies, you know, the spectacles get so wild,
these horrible creatures.
They think, what's so horrible about that?
But you see something in real life that is human but not human in that way.
It's just, you know, you just can't imagine the situation confronting us in reality.
I think a lot of that, in retrospect, is the fact that when I came to, I was in such pain.
You know, I'm combining the shock of the sight of these things with the pain that I was feeling, plus the feeling of being trapped.
Did you affect the two?
In other words, did you feel that the pain was... It was just kind of an instant.
It was just kind of a reaction.
Were you afraid, Travis?
I was terrified.
It was hard for me to even talk about it.
I was missing for over five days and six hours, and yet I can only recall just a matter of minutes of that time.
And most of that, I was in a state of total terror, total hysteria.
Until I was finally forced down onto a table.
They put a mask over my face.
It looked like a We've got to take our break now, folks.
Don't go away.
It was a black spall.
Did it cover your whole face or just your mouth?
Just my mouth and nose.
And I reached up and tried to pull it away, but before I could, I blacked out.
And that was the last thing I remembered until I found myself lying face down beside the
road outside of Heber.
We've got to take our break now, folks.
Don't go away.
We'll be right back after this very short pause.
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♪ ♪
♪ And that was the last thing I remembered until I found
myself lying face down beside the road outside of Heber.
That's the town nearest where this happened.
I remembered at that point what had happened to me.
But I got, as I raised my head up, I could see a light shining down onto the roadway there.
And I looked up just as the light went off.
And I couldn't see whether it was a hatch closing or a light on the outside of this thing going off,
but I saw this, this dip-shaped craft.
And this was different from the one we saw in the woods.
This was more rounded looking and more polished.
It's not a silvery look to it.
Was this daylight or night?
It was night.
And just as I looked, it shot straight up into the sky, very quickly.
And it was surprising to see silently, just quickly at the moment.
It just kind of stirred the air a little bit.
I felt heat coming from it, but it wasn't giving off light.
And I looked around, recognized this piece of road, and I saw light down there.
And I ran down into the town.
I managed to call my family to come and get me before I collapsed there in the front of the building where they
found me.
And this was just outside Heather?
Yeah.
Did anybody else come along and talk to you during this time?
Well, it was desolate.
There was no one.
But when you woke up there after five days and six hours, were you clean shaven?
Did you need a bath?
Were your clothes dirty?
No, I didn't realize that.
But, you know, when they picked me up and they were taking me back, I was pretty hysterical.
And they made references to people worrying in the church and stuff.
And up until that point, I thought this was the same night.
So, you know, they said, Travis, it's been five days.
And that was just such a shock to me.
I could feel your face and I had a five day growth of beard and I just kind of latched into sort of a state of keratoponia there.
Did it appear like you'd been taken care of while you were gone?
Well... Was your body clean?
The physician had examined me the next day.
I did remark that I was not in a condition as someone who had been wandering around the woods for five days, that I was relatively clean, except for, you know, the sawdust from working out there.
And there were a number of tests that were run, medical tests, the whole battery of tests.
Because, you know, the main thing was I was worried that there was some lingering effects
here, you know.
Was I going to come down with some bizarre infection that nobody had any answer for?
You know, were there going to be harmful effects from breathing in an atmosphere that wasn't
right for me?
You know, would I, you know, did I, had I been exposed to radiation?
But the tests came out, you know, pretty clean on this point.
And right off the bat, when this happened, you know, once the men had resolved the question
of murder by passing polygraph tests, there was the accusation that, well, they just believed
They were all out there drunk or on drugs or something, and they hallucinated it.
So, you know, one of the medical tests was that I had blood and urine samples run to
the Maricopa County Medical Examiner's drug screen, which revealed no trace of any drugs.
And you know, in the aftermath of this, there was an incredible amount of effort directed
at trying to explain it away any way people could.
It was just one allegation after another, and it got to be pretty ridiculous.
Did this cause you a lot of problems in your personal life?
It really did.
And you know, as years went on and this continued, and people's reaction to it was so severe
that I have to say that looking back on it, a major portion of the unpleasantness in the
whole retrospective of things is people's reaction to it, to the point where it almost
overshadows the exam itself, and that's staying a lot.
Bye.
That is saying a lot.
In fact, that's saying a hell of a lot.
Did you have any support group?
Did you belong to a church?
Did your family stand behind you?
Well, the people who knew me best were the people who were the most supportive.
The people who attacked Amal, the people who said the most disparaging things, the people
who knew me the least, and really knew the least about the event itself, they really
didn't have the facts.
And so many of the theories that were advanced to try to explain it away were at complete
odds with basic, easily verified facts.
It's just one thing after another.
It wasn't a drug hallucination, then it was a transitory psychosis.
That suddenly flipped out and hallucinated the whole thing.
But both of those theories fail to take into consideration that seven people do not have
identical hallucinations.
We all saw the same thing.
So there was naturally a, you know, I took all of that shit myself.
I've taken and passed three separate polygraph tests and also undergone regressive hypnosis.
And there's a lot of physical evidence that's been ignored in this case.
Tell us about some of the physical evidence that we all know that physical evidence is something hard we can feel, we can see, we can smell, we can taste, that we can hold in our hands.
What was it and what happened to it?
Well, there was a researcher in the area, he came to the area right after this happened, and he went to the site and he found traces of ozone, high levels of ozone in the area.
How many days after the event was this?
This was, I don't know, a couple of days.
Who was this researcher?
It was Bill Spalding from Brown and Susser-Walsh.
He also had a gauss meter that he took magnetic readings.
He plotted the area out on a grid map and found some incredible magnetic anomalies.
I guess in the surrounding area you have a uniform reading, whereas right at the site where the craft appeared there was some The high readings are 10 or 12, plus and minus, up to a 15 in one spot there.
Gone.
Deviation from background.
Also, there was a man that came to the site, I was told about this, during the search.
A couple of the men on the crew were present.
The man was dressed in force service uniform.
Now, the crew boss is familiar with all the forces guys in the area, so unless he was from outside the area.
Anyway, this guy was kind of mysterious in his behavior because he was taking these readings around the area.
And when the men approached him, he seemed to be extremely vague about what he was doing.
They tested, they said, well test us.
And so they tested the men and they were just background, rated a one and a half.
I said, well okay, we've gone home, changed our clothes, and bathed.
So how about testing our hard hats?
And so the guys said okay, and they went and got the hard hats.
The heart had registered six on the dial, and this was twice that of a guy's radiant dial wash booth there.
The man reacted very strangely to this, and when the men said, well, test the truck, you know, that was the early, you know, he rolled his equipment up and walked away, and they never saw him again.
And there was never anything reported about these meetings, but there were, you know, a number of witnesses.
So nobody really knows who this guy was?
No, not, it may have been somebody that the Forest Service brought out, but it may have been some government man, this guy, I don't know.
Okay, they had those magnetic readings, ozone, the radiation.
There were also a number of fragments found by Mr. Spalding at the site.
He said that they were small little chips of what looked like, they were shiny gray
sort of, looked like obsidian.
It very, very definitely looked to be like an unnatural material.
Obsidian for our listeners is a barcaded glass.
Yeah.
Anyways, there's no kind of mineral like that in the area.
But he found a pile of these metal fragments and he turned over to my brother, who turned
that over to the people from the Aerial Phenomena Research Organization, who had it analyzed
and they said that it was some sort of a high temperature, high grade silicon.
But, you know, that's all pretty mysterious, and the samples disappeared.
I don't have any written report on that.
You know, nobody dismissed, and there's been material written about it here and there, but nothing real official.
It's really kind of a loose end that I think really should have been followed up on.
Now, people used to hear a lot of talk about this, but nobody really, as far as my investigation into this, nobody really started to do any real research into what happened there, and nobody seemed to be interested in a big way, such as the movie that was made, until just in the last few years.
Why is that, Trevor?
Well, you know, I got kind of disgusted with all the controversy and all the untruths that were being said.
There were things published that were just wrong.
Well, this is the way that the ufology movement seems to operate.
They're not professional.
I first started to try to do that.
I'd get out there and try to reflect and think, look, I can prove this isn't true.
And I would document it, but it was just one thing after another.
I just got disgusted with it.
This is the way that the euphology movement seems to operate.
They're not professional.
Anybody can call themselves a eupologist.
And they tend to do that kind of thing, which is why we, as an organization,
separated ourselves from them totally also.
Because there's so much rampant, total bullshit connected with those people
that it doesn't even pay to get involved with them.
But there are some people who are seriously trying to uncover the truth of what's happening.
There are several different scenarios that could be occurring.
One, of course, is the possible visitation of this planet by extraterrestrials.
Another is that this could be a human technology and what people perceive to have happened may have been put into their minds by some sophisticated mind control operation.
None of us really know.
We're really trying to get to the bottom of this because whatever it is, it certainly means something profound for our future.
I agree.
And as far as all those theories are concerned, even though this happened to me, any one of those could explain it.
I mean towards the extraterrestrial hypothesis, but I do not exclude the idea that this could be some manifestation of some Earth power at all.
It's very possible.
How has this affected you through the years, Travis?
Do people still remember this?
Do you still have problems in your personal life with this?
I know that you still live in the same town which must have caused you a tremendous amount of
trouble.
You know there was a lot of stigma and all the controversy and everything so you know
I just kind of slammed the door on it and just refused to talk about it for so long
and you know I had a lot of movie offers over the years and I turned those down because
I was just fed up with it and so you know that's really why it's so long before this
movie happened and the way they persuaded me to do this was you know the idea was if
they could create something that would allow people to live for themselves you know what
we've been through you know experience it on the gut level you know the emotional experience
that maybe it would open up their minds and they'd take it more objectively than the other
The movie's not a documentary, but as far as on the emotional, experiential level, I think it did succeed in doing that because I had noticed a profound change in people's attitudes in the community in terms of their reaction to me.
Just since they've seen the movie?
Yeah, I think the movie had that effect.
I've heard all kinds of things about the movie.
I haven't seen it yet.
I intend to see it this weekend because it's on the drive over in the Pinetop Lakeside area while we're up here.
We're going to go see it.
I didn't want to see it until I talked to you, simply because I heard so much about the movie deviating from your real story, and I didn't want that to color this interview at all.
We try to keep anything extraneous to what should come out in an interview, which we always hope is the truth, from interfering.
If there were anything that you could do different, what would you have done?
It seems that people who do stay in their vehicles and do stay in their trucks and don't try to approach these things when they have these types of encounters never have these kinds of problems on the norm.
I mean, there are some exceptions to this, but on the norm.
On the other side, it does appear that people who do get out of their cars or trucks or do try to approach these things do have, on the norm, the same kind of experience or experiences like the one that you have, which tends to tell me that if you ever have an experience with an unidentified flying object at a close range, Stay away from it.
Don't try to approach it.
And that would be my recommendation, too, because I don't think we know enough about what's going on to say whether it's dangerous or not.
I personally, in hindsight, can say, hey, they did return me, and I'm alive, but who could fathom what their purposes were?
Whether that was done out of some moral obligation or maybe some other reason they had, I can't say.
So I would say stay away from it.
I don't want to open a can of worms with this next question, but I have to ask this.
They returned you.
Did they return anything else with you?
Have you noticed that you're smarter or you're healthier?
Are strange ideas coming to your mind?
Or maybe you're not as smart, I don't know.
And you may not even want to answer this because it might cause a whole new controversy.
But these are the things that come to mind.
Why did they take you?
Do you have any idea?
I mean if they didn't leave anything with you, what was the whole point?
I don't know.
I don't know.
A lot of people, you know, news media refer to it real glibly as a medical examination.
I don't know what they were doing to me.
I woke up in the middle of whatever was going on, and who can know?
It's terrifying to speculate about that, and I really just kind of put it out of my mind.
But I don't know what the ultimate purpose was.
You can drive yourself nuts trying to figure it out, because what happened to me, so much seems to be a fragment of this.
There's just not enough to go on.
Did you have any set religious viewpoints before this happened to you?
Were you a member of a church?
Yeah, I was a member of the church here.
Which church were you a member of?
LDS Church.
Latter-day Saints?
Yes.
Have your religious views changed since this happened?
No, and I really don't think that this necessarily has any religious implications, unless your religion specifically denies such things.
But you know, I think that the supreme beings are over everything there is, and this is
just one of the things it is.
Did your church support you?
Did the people... Did you feel like you were on display when you went to church?
Yeah, I did.
And so I tended to stay away because, you know, people's reaction to this.
I kind of turned inwards and kind of shut people out.
I went in alone.
My main method of coping with all this was denial.
It just sort of slammed the door on me and put it out of my mind.
There's nothing we would talk about at home and just try to get on with life and live as normal as possible.
And it took a lot of time, a lot of years before things started to feel anything close to normal.
And you don't think that you were left with any message or any revelations or anything of that sort?
No.
I certainly differ from the norm.
I meet so many people and talk to them.
I don't know.
they were given some task to do in the future and they know that they've got this task to
do but they don't know what it is.
Some tell me they have a message to give to humanity and that's what they're trying to
do.
I never make judgments about this.
I'm trying to find out what this is all about rather than judge the individual people because
on the whole, most of the people that I've talked to, including you, I believe, believe
the story that they're telling in their hearts and in their mind that they believe that what
for telling me happened, really happened.
Whether it did or not, of course, is a whole different story, but that's going to be down the road when we finally solve this mystery.
And I think it ultimately will be solved, but I don't know how that's going to be done.
I tell you it's not going to be done by ignoring it and by ridiculing people who come forward with these stories.
People who may have experienced this tend not to come forward, and so there may be a wealth of knowledge out there that we can't even get to because of that.
What do you think about the movie?
How do you feel about that?
Well, you know, I would like to urge everyone to realize that the movie is not a documentary.
You know, Hollywood does take dramatic lessons, and if you're looking for a documentary, you know, read my book, you know, with what the movie is based on.
Because, you know, there I go into all the specific details about how the movie differs from the book and all that kind of stuff.
But the movie does succeed in communicating the feelings, the core essence of what we experience.
And the events that surround it, The search and the accusations of murder and the investigation and all that, all that stuff was very close to the way it really was.
So, you know, you can rely on that in there.
Whether it happened or not, and neither did they.
You know, they felt that since probably things had happened that I couldn't recall, that they felt justified in speculating these things.
Do you think they speculated or do you think that maybe they took this from some of the stories that other abductees had come forward with?
Yeah, that's what they said, that they took them from some other reports that they had, some of the more unusual ones that they felt would add, you know, visual impact to the story.
But another thing that they were doing was, a lot of what happened to me were the things that were going on inside my head, sorts of psychological things, things I was thinking.
And since they didn't want to use a narrator, you know, that's tacky, they wanted to be able to show rather than tell, they had, they contrived scenes that they felt would evoke the same emotion as what I was telling.
For instance, there's this scene where, uh, the actor is, is being held down by this membrane.
And, you know, when I, when I, uh, regained consciousness I found myself in a very cramped space, it was dimly lit, I was having a great deal
of difficulty breathing, the air was seeming very humid and hard to breathe.
And so I had these feelings of claustrophobia and suffocation that would be impossible to
translate to film if you just showed an actor standing there breathing hard, looking panicked,
you know, you wouldn't understand why.
And incidentally that's one of the most terrifying feelings to ever experience is the feeling
suffocation and not being able to breathe.
So, you know, that was another factor concerning that that we discussed earlier about why I reacted so negatively to the sight of him as just being in suffocation therapy.
But anyway, there was this scene where the actor was held down by this membrane.
He's struggling to move.
It's covering his face.
He's struggling to breathe.
And I think that very powerfully evokes the emotions of claustrophobia and suffocation that I was feeling.
although there's, you know, nothing to cause a happiness that way.
I'm going to play a little bit of this.
Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.
The original story that was told, and that appeared in the police reports, the sheriff report, the report of the special investigator, and those who initially spoke with the logging crew and Travis Walton, was that they saw a light in the woods.
Just a light.
Nobody knew what it was.
Nobody had any idea.
Travis Walton got out of the truck to go look at this light.
And they said they saw a bright flash of light and Travis Walton went down on the ground.
They got scared and left in their truck.
That was the story.
Travis Walton, when he came back, said that they saw a light in the woods and he wanted to see what it was.
He jumped out of the truck and ran into the woods and he said he saw a bright flash of light and that was it.
He said he didn't remember anything.
Until he came to on a road in Heber, and he saw a bright light sort of receding in the distance.
And that was it.
And then later, when questioned, he said, well, he did remember sort of being half-awake, half-asleep, and having this feeling of suffocation, and nothing else.
And then a man by the name, ladies and gentlemen, of James Harder used hypnosis, and after that, people began talking about this disc-shaped craft that they saw, and Travis began talking about the fact that he had gone toward a disc-shaped craft, a spacecraft, made out of metal that hummed and made noises, and that When he woke and felt like he was suffocating, he was in the panic hysteria, and he saw these little creatures, which, ladies and gentlemen, what he describes are not extraterrestrials or aliens, and in a state of full-blown panic hysteria, and you feel like you're suffocating, and you're scared to death, and you're sort of half in and out of being conscious and being unconscious, and it's only for just a few fleeting moments or seconds, as the case may be.
He could have gone through a complete state of imagination, or he could have been lying on a table with people standing around him.
I don't know if you've ever looked at an operating room scene, ladies and gentlemen, but I've been operated on, and I can tell you that when you're lying on an operating table, the table is raised high into the air, and the doctors and nurses stand around it.
And you're seeing a completely different perspective than you're used to.
Usually people, when they're lying, they're lying on the couch or on the ground or in a bed.
And when someone stands beside the bed or stands beside them on the ground or beside the couch, they look in the proper perspective.
But if you were to raise that bed high in the air and have someone who's six foot tall standing next to you, they look very short.
They look very small.
And if you're looking at doctors and nurses who are wearing surgical gloves and gowns and their head is completely covered with masks and covering over their hair, and the only thing that is showing is their eyes, they look like hairless creatures with huge eyes when you are sort of half in and out of the anesthesia.
I know because I've seen it.
The only thing is, I knew I was in an operating room, and I knew they were doctors, and I knew they were nurses, and they looked small, because the operating table was raised up high.
And I never once gave it a thought that anyone could mistake such a scene for extraterrestrial creatures or beings or something else, but I can certainly understand how that could happen.
I don't know what happened to Travis Walton.
I don't know if Travis Walton knows what happened to Travis Walton.
I do know that nobody else knows what happened to Travis Walton, and I do know that his story has changed.
Since the initial reports given to investigators, it changed in this interview, and since this was made back in spring of 1993.
It has changed again.
It changed last weekend when I saw Travis Walton interviewed on television on one of these shows, I forget, may have been sightings.
And it had, you know, he was talking about walking around in the spaceship.
watching what these creatures were doing and all kinds of different things.
And that's what happens with a lot of these stories.
I want to take your calls now and see what you have to say about all this.
520-333-4578 is the number.
And bear in mind folks, I'm not telling you that Travis Wolfe lied.
That's not what I'm saying.
My experience with a lot of these people who claim that they have been abducted by whoever has abducted them, whether it happens in their own mind or whether it's something that's really taking place, all appear to me to believe exactly what they're telling me.
Many of them do not pass lie detector tests.
Travis Walton was given a lie detector test, which he failed Miserably, in fact, the man who administered the test stated emphatically that he was practicing gross deception.
Gross deception!
Later, he took another lie detector test and passed it.
But you cannot use lie detector tests as proof about anything.
You cannot Give someone a lie detector test, and if they fail it, say that they're not telling the truth.
You can't give someone a lie detector test, and if they pass it, say that that proves that they're telling the truth.
Because a lie detector test can be manipulated.
It's not allowed in any court of law, because people can defeat it.
Not only that, but people, it has been proven, ladies and gentlemen, that people who are telling the truth, being absolutely perfectly honest, Can flunk a lie detector test.
Can fail it.
And people who are practicing complete and total deception can pass a lie detector test.
And that's why they're not allowed in a court of law.
So when these people tout lie detector tests, whether they pass it or fail it, as proof that these incidents either did or did not occur, that is not proof at all.
And anybody who uses a lie detector test to either support or disprove any incident It is doing themselves and the person involved and everybody else a great disservice for the reasons that I have stated.
And failure to submit to a lie detector test is not an indication that someone is not being truthful or that they're trying to hide something.
It is rather an indication of a very smart person who knows that lie detector tests can be manipulated either way.
Or, if you're telling the truth and being perfectly honest, can indicate that you are telling a lie and being perfectly dishonest.
No one should ever submit to a lie detector test because they're taking a hell of a chance.
And I mean the hell of a chance, ladies and gentlemen, if you're perfectly truthful, and telling the truth, and trying to be honest, and you agree, you submit to the pressure that's applied to you to take a lie detector test, and it comes up and says you're a liar, what are you going to do then?
So lie detector tests are not proof of anything, either for or against anything, nothing at all.
Here's what we know without any doubt.
And without going into any of the changes in the story or anything else, we know the seven men riding in a truck coming back from a day of logging saw a bright light in the woods.
We all agree on that.
That story has never changed.
They stopped.
Travis Walton got out of the truck, went toward the bright light.
They saw another flash of light.
Travis Walton fell to the ground, and the men in the truck drove off and left Travis Walton there, who disappeared.
Five days later, Travis Walton reappeared—five days and six hours—reappeared in the small town of Heber in east-central Arizona, near the Rim Country, the Mogollon Rim.
That's all that we know about this that we know is fact.
Everything else cannot be proven or disproven in any way, shape, or form.
We can show how there has been a change in the story and an escalation of that change toward an extraterrestrial abduction scenario.
Is Travis Walton telling the truth?
Well, we don't know that, and there's no way to really tell.
So, let's see what you have to say about all this.
Good evening, Jeremiah.
Well, good evening, Bill.
How are you doing?
Good.
Mike from Rochester, New York, again.
Hello, Mike.
Enjoyed your show last night.
It was really kind of a giggle.
Great.
But I know you're a pretty good researcher, Bill, and I was wondering if in your tenure
of doing this type of work, what do you know about ball lightning?
Ball lightning?
Ball lightning.
All I know is that it's a natural phenomenon and it normally occurs near places where there
are lots of water.
Swamps, lakes, rivers, that kind of thing.
Other than that, I don't know a whole lot, neither does anybody else, and it seems to be, according to scientific observation by people who call themselves scientists, some kind of a plasma phenomenon.
That's a pretty good background.
Well, you yourself live up in mountainous territory, correct?
Yes.
It's sometimes also called swamp gas.
Do you think because of the possible higher altitudes there's more of a static charge as you go up in altitude?
I don't really know, to tell you the truth.
Now he was in a mountainous area, correct, also, right?
The town he lived in?
Well, this is, uh, he wasn't really in a mountainous area, as a matter of fact, although this is a high elevation.
You think that possibly it was a static discharge of some type and got hit by that and it just makes no sense?
I have no idea.
That is a reasonable and logical explanation but it is still conjecture.
Most of this stuff is for just about all these cases.
I've been kind of, I guess you could say researching them or just keeping up over the past 20 years and there's really no rhyme or reason to any of them.
The more you read about it it seems the more confusing the issue gets and then you, you know, what was that name you said, uh, changings or change over people?
There's some term you used, uh, you used it for our show last night.
Oh.
Oh, change agents.
Change agents.
Yes.
And it just seems like, you know, you read this certain author and then you read somebody else and I've heard you mention a few times I've been listening to you for a few years and It seems like they take you up to a point and then you come crashing down.
Somebody else comes up with another theory and it's just nobody's in agreement with anything.
Well, they're not supposed to be.
being. You see part of this whole phenomenon is to keep people spinning around never finding
an answer but always keeping their attention away from everything else and onto these kinds
of things so that they don't really get involved in doing the research and investigation that
they should be doing about things that are really going to matter about their future.
So you're just thinking of the red herring the whole process?
Well every piece of research that I have developed into the so called extraterrestrial visitation,
abductions, the benevolent space brothers and the baddies that want to eat us and suck
our blood and all that stuff.
I think you're making me laugh again.
points directly to the Central Intelligence Agency and to an old, old plan, some of which I read to you last night,
to create an artificial threat from space in order to bring humanity together in a one-world government.
Well, that's frightening.
Well, it is frightening, and that's, you know, we had...
But, you see, that's what the euphologists don't want to hear.
They don't want to hear that kind of talk.
They don't want to go into those kinds of researches and investigations.
It's got to be extraterrestrial.
There is no other answer to them, and everything that they do, and everything that they look in, and every investigation that they perform, and everything that they write,
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