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Sept. 24, 1996 - Bill Cooper
01:57:28
Conference of Aug. 21, 1996- M. Moore
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Time Text
...
The Voice of Freedom You're listening to the Worldwide Freedom Radio Network.
Nice hour of the hour, the hour of the fire. Nice hour for the perpetual flow of water, sizzling in the fire.
The world is on fire. The world is on fire. The world is on fire.
I'm William Cooper and you're listening to the Hour of the Time.
Ladies and gentlemen, when I awoke this morning, my voice was gone.
By taking it easy and doing the right things today, it has come back.
But believe me, I'm forcing it right now to sound better than it really does.
And so tonight we're going to go back to the conference, and specifically the date of August the 21st.
And you're going to hear the beginning two hours of Michelle Moore's lecture following the field trip to the desolation that is the site where the New York Federal Building once stood.
We are back in the conference room now, and if I were you, I would pay very close attention to the next two hours, and if I feel like it, we may go another two hours on satellite.
Cross your fingers, because I may not feel like it.
Don't go away, folks.
You'll want to hear every single word of this.
And remember to call Swiss America Trading and thank them for sponsoring this broadcast and for backing the World Wide Freedom Radio Network.
Ask for the current newsletter.
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1-800-289-2646. That's 1-800-BUY-COIN. 1-800-289-2646. 1-800-BUY-COIN.
1-800-289-2646.
Wow.
Thank you.
What in the world happened there?
I'll never know.
So I'll try that again.
And I'll even give myself my cue.
my cue 1-800-BUY-COIN 1-800-BUY-COIN
1-800-BUY-COIN Losing my mind.
Like I've been driven to fear before.
Like you've been left behind.
I've just gone down In the deep depths of deep deep
And you are now gone Carry on now
Like you've never tried before Bring it on, bring it on
Bring it on Bring it on, bring it on
Don't wait until tomorrow Bring it on, bring it on
Bring it on Give me something for the dreams that I've seen
Peace.
You know I love the way you see me.
A broken heart, how do you tell that I'm broken hearted?
Are you serious?
And the Federal building, I mean, and Federal Courthouse sit is known as Block 39.
And it was originally owned by the Masons.
And then, and they also, the general record building was the Masonic Temple.
And the Indian Shrine shared it for a while, big auditorium there.
And then in the 1930s, they lost their downtown holdings because of the Great Depression.
Then they bought them back just in time for the building to blow up and to collect the big money grant from the government.
So that was all Masonic properties.
The land.
As far as we can tell, there's a real interesting story on trying to find the land deeds there.
We know for sure that the feds never got it.
The feds never owned the land underneath the federal building.
That's a definite given.
But instead of saying that that gave state jurisdiction to the whole case, they said, oh, well, it's concurrent jurisdiction.
Feds and state both can prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
Uh, so it's a real mess.
They're not even going to address that question.
And, uh, the real estate records are scarce as can be.
You could get them last November.
You can't lay hands on them now.
I don't know.
Thank you.
Pardon me?
Mason?
Well, we'll have to look that up.
Any other questions?
Okay.
Alright, well I've had one presentation planned up until about midnight last night, but I've been talking to a lot of you here and realized that I needed to kind of change my approach because I've got a lot of people who were here last year and some people who weren't here last year but wanted to be here last year and now they want to know what I said last year.
So we've got to kind of find a balance.
There are several things that you will immediately notice when you see the bombsite, if you are down there.
First of all, is the tremendous compassion of the people, how they feel about the event, and how they identify with it.
You know, all the different states and countries, you know, you go along, you see the stuff from Australia, and Kentucky, and Tennessee, and all these different places.
people come from all over to go and be sad.
And it's difficult to determine what they're really sad about, but it's an oppressive place.
It's a very spiritually dark and heavy place for me to be there.
And I know that, uh, when we were out there and I was trying to answer questions, I had this really strange moment when I heard the sound of my own voice coming back.
I don't even know who I was talking to and I just thought, boy, you really sound bitchy.
But it, it, it's just that I can't be there anymore.
Okay?
It's, uh, I can't.
So it's difficult.
And then the other thing you notice when you're down there, when you look at the fence decor, is a tremendous amount of propaganda surrounding the event.
All the stuff about, wouldn't it be wonderful if there was no violence in the world.
And everything for the sake of the children.
We'll give up our liberty so the children can have peace tomorrow.
All the Masonic stuff we saw.
I guess I talked to a lot of you and went and looked at a lot of the stuff on the fence.
See, the evidence has been removed.
The building's gone.
And one of the most obvious things is that the Murrah Building is gone, but the Journal Record Building, the Water Resources Board, the Athenian Restaurant still stand.
And if you went over to the fence and looked close up, you know that if you crossed over the fence and got in there, you'd be instantly hurt.
Something would cave in on you.
I don't know what's holding those things up.
They're just in crumbles and wrinkles.
There's a wrinkle still.
And yet, for some reason, they had to get rid of the Murrah Building real fast.
But those things are still standing, unrepaired.
The reason that they gave for bringing down the Murrah Building so fast was safety.
Please.
Yes, did you have a question?
Oh, it looked like you were raising your hand.
That's kind of a rough part of downtown, especially after dark.
And there are guys and gangs and homeless people and drugs and prostitutes and stuff that walk the streets of downtown in that area.
And if anybody got over the fence into one of those areas, they would undoubtedly be killed.
But those buildings didn't need to be bulldozed for safety's sake.
You know, it's just very, very strange that that's not being addressed.
Obviously, neither one of the Athenian Restaurant or the Water Resources Board building could be restored.
Okay?
They couldn't take what's there and make it back into anything habitable.
That's obvious.
The only solution to fixing those two particular buildings in question is to just scrape them, get rid of them, and start from the ground up.
That's all they can do there.
So why they're still standing, I don't know.
They can binker about the $39 million from now until eternity.
Right?
Remains don't need to still be there, but they are Maybe
It's a big point of contention.
That's what James Loftus said, that they could have, you know, he was the head of the design
He did say at one time in the paper very early on, That he thought the destroyed part of the Murrah building could have been taken away, and what was left standing could have been built upon.
Yes, Jean.
I was at my husband's when he was in the ICU.
So he said Deb was in the ER.
Mm-hmm.
And Tornado.
And Deb was in the ER.
Right.
And Tornado.
Right.
And Deb was in the ER.
Right.
Right.
And isn't it interesting that four weeks later he changed his opinion?
Yeah.
He was quite certain that it could be restored.
But that was also a real emotional thing, too, because folks didn't want it restored.
And the people who lived and were going to have to go back to work there didn't want to go back to anything that reminded them visually of where they had been and what had occurred.
So there was a lot of psychology playing in on this thing.
The propaganda about the right-wing extremism.
It has really, really gotten out of hand, and I'm not sure what we're going to do to counteract it, but this particular book is called Criminal Justice and Right-Wing Extremism in America.
It's published by John J. Nutter, Ph.D., by the Conflict Analysis Group.
This is a handbook that was given to law enforcement trainees at a special seminar that was held earlier this year dealing with counterterrorism measures.
And it goes through here and defines the profile of the terrorist.
We all fit it.
Okay?
And in listing right-wing extremist dates and anniversaries, we have, of course, 1995, April 19th.
Right-wing extremists blow up Alfred T. Murrow Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, killing 169 people in the worst terrorist incident on U.S.
soil.
This is now facts.
This is what they're teaching the police force.
Typology of current right-wing extremists.
Neo-Nazi, Ku Klux Klan, Christian Identity, Skinheads, Militias, Sovereignty Movement, Constitutionalists, Wise Youth Movement, County Movement, Tax Protesters, and Resisters, Second Amendment groups.
All terrorists, and all these terrorists blew up the Marble League, and they're teaching this history.
It's nuts.
Criminal Justice and Right-Wing Extremism in America, John J. Nutter.
Pardon me?
John J. Nutter and the Conflict Analysis Group are teaching it to law enforcement.
Is Danny back?
Danny, was he at the seminar where this was taught?
When he was doing his detectives?
No, he wasn't.
He got the copies for me.
Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training, Oklahoma Sheriffs and Peace Officers Association.
That's who this is for.
And he's doing these seminars all over the country.
Can I get copies of this?
Well, Mailboxes, etc.
has a three cent copy sale for the rest of the month.
We could probably do it.
It's not for a cent.
The page is not numbered.
But you will have a copy of it.
Coordinate with Brett on that.
Okay?
Would you?
See what needs to be done on that.
The facts that we're looking at about the event.
Two explosions.
The interior explosion first.
The fascia blown outwardly from deep inside the building.
The survivor elm that you all saw is directly in the path of the blast, but it survives.
Those lampshades that we looked at in the photographs, they're unharmed.
And the crater evidence.
Okay, Cal, would you put up the black and white field for me, please?
I'm going to take this with me.
It's upside down.
I'm going to go ahead and get started.
Uh, no.
Whoa.
Okay.
No, it's still not right.
Well, put the crater down at the bottom.
Move it this way.
No.
Turn it up.
Now turn it around.
Yay!
Alright, this is a transparency made from an Associated Press laser photo, aerial photo.
And this was taken on the day of the bombing, before they covered anything up.
This, right here, is the crater.
So you can see it in relation to the building, but you're looking at it at an odd angle.
Because it looks, when you're looking at it, like it's way down here on the East side of the big cutout part.
That magazine that you brought me yesterday.
When you go back to the table, there's a book or something, a lot of color photos in it.
You can see the crater from a different angle, but still in front.
And it's really like in this area here.
I don't know what the angle is to make it look like this, but it wasn't at the right corner.
And we all know that it was not a right click.
Just an odd angle.
But the reason this was an important photograph was because it gave us our first indication of what the diameter of the crater was.
Now put that colored one up.
That's the photograph.
Uh, let's see.
Thank you.
Flip it over.
There we go.
This is the crater.
This bucket.
All these yellow buckets.
Yellow buckets.
It's hard for me to see up close.
Yeah.
Right.
All of it.
Well there's over here too.
There's more yellow buckets.
They're 14 inches tall.
Okay?
This is hardly a 30 foot crater.
It's also not 8 or 12 feet deep.
This was the First, honest to God, crater photograph close up inside the perimeter we've never been able to get.
And it was taken by one of the guys that works for Midwest Elevator Company that went in and did the elevator work and told us that none of the elevators refell at all.
So the BATF guy who was supposed to have fallen in the elevator five stories was lying.
None of the elevators fell.
But he took this photograph and I know Bill has measured and I have measured A hundred different times bucket width across it.
And depending on where you measure it from, it's anywhere between 18 and 23 feet maximum.
Maximum.
That's getting really generous to get 23 feet out of the crater.
Now think about your 22 foot cargo truck blowing up.
The cargo truck would barely fit in the crater.
Just barely.
And if it's going to do a gigantic blast, big enough to take down the whole front of the building in Pancake Nine stories, surely it would have made a much bigger crater than that.
But that's the crater.
And when you saw all of the plywood, you know the photographs of the plywood that said the crater's underneath the plywood?
The crater's not underneath the plywood.
The crater's to the left of the plywood and you can see it.
And the crater just kind of got filled in as they went along.
It wasn't so deep that they couldn't get across it.
Nobody was in danger of falling in and, you know, headlong 20 feet down or 12 feet down and getting really hurt.
As they moved the rubble out, it just kind of filled.
So it was real interesting.
They'd had the plywood over the crater all those weeks.
The weekend before the building was imploded, Stephen Jones for the defense team takes his independent investigators
inside the perimeter to do their one hour trip that they were allowed to look inside.
And the crater that was supposed to be underneath the plywood was miraculously filled.
But there never was a crater underneath the plywood.
So all the talk about, you know, Stephen Jones saying, well, if they filled it in after I filed my motion,
I'd be very disturbed.
I'd be a little upset about that.
That was never the point.
They had the public in their mind had the crater in the wrong place all along, and I'm not sure what the
point of the discussion was.
Thank you.
If they have plywood over there, it's just to ease ingress and egress.
Because it's really lumpy.
You know, lots and lots of debris and broken glass and dangerous stuff to walk across.
Just makes it easy to get in and out for the rescuers and cleanups.
But they weren't covering up any big old crater that anybody was going to fall in and get hurt.
Because that's the crater.
Sir?
Right, right.
I'm sorry.
No, no official.
No official ever did say the crater was under the plywood.
Well, now wait a minute.
In the FEMA footage, Mike Shannon, a firefighter, was asked by the cameraman, and where is the crater?
And what he said was, over there, and gestured toward the plywood.
But he didn't say, it's under the plywood.
So that's about as close as we got.
Brett?
Right.
Right.
So that's the crater story.
Now, I'm not going to spend the whole day talking about the bombing.
We've got training to do, but these are some things that I wanted to touch on that we didn't get to deal with last year and things that I think are important.
You can take that one down now.
I'm done with the crater.
Let's talk about Gary Hunt, an accomplice.
We've now confirmed from four eyewitnesses the presence of Gary Hunt at the Grand Continental Hotel for the entire week prior to the bombing.
Also seen in the company of someone resembling McVeigh and somebody resembling John Doe too.
Which means we now have McVeigh in two different states at one time and three different cities at one time.
We've got lots of McVeighs running around.
But the Gary Hunt issue is particularly interesting to study because it kind of reveals who the bad guys are.
Now I don't know why they're trying to I don't know why they're trying to keep Gary Hunt out of it when we can prove that Gary Hunt was there, but they're still trying to do it, and they will be exposed.
But what I'm going to show you now, I'll run it a couple of times, it's just a few seconds of footage from the KFOR video, and you'll see Gary Hunt and his friends walk around the bushes, come right in front of the camera, kind of look at us, and then move off.
And I'll run it back and let you see it a couple of times so you see who this guy is.
You think who?
Gary Hunt is the one here in this video.
And you'll see they both have a little, kind of a goofy, snoopy look on their faces.
Uh-oh.
He walked right into a camera.
Now where is he?
Gary Hunt is a guy who's, uh, he was both in the States for quite a while, so I'm just going to say that he's a guy in Florida.
He was at It was at Waco, and it caused us a lot of trouble over there at Waco.
And, uh, he died between an incident at the food fest and a political event.
That's awesome.
And now he's gone.
Yeah, he is gone.
So, there are some kind of, uh, you know, electronic, uh, communication devices, or detonators, or, or something.
They don't know what they are.
Like, they have antennas, or...
This is the day of the bombing.
You can still see the smoke from the fires that would have made it about 9.30.
Look at their faces.
Oh, it's beautiful.
Are there 25 men still on the line?
Uh, yeah.
Yes, because his car was still smoking.
He's got to be a skeptic.
The guy, I mean, uh, Jack Robreus,
the guy was known to be with him, he was trying to be a connoisseur,
and he was trying to be a connoisseur.
So he was a good guy.
Jerry Hunt is an ATF agent.
We also have video footage of his name and attitude.
Paul Barrow has a couple of videos of ATF agents and how to be an ATF agent.
You have a photograph of this animal that says he up here on the delivery consensus.
Was there any researches at that time?
No.
No, it's too early gone.
No crime scene take-up yet.
Everybody's still being rescued as the triage is arriving.
I mean, this is like 30 minutes after the bombing.
Or less, I would say.
I mean, we still got smoke coming in the air, and we had the car fires out, mostly out by about 9.20.
It was close to 9.30.
It's on the cross most of the evidence that we have gathered from the actual unseen video footage that has not had time to be censored or controlled by the nation.
video footage that has not had time to be censored or controlled by the majority of
the public.
So, all of the reports that you initially get of some kind of incident like this, any
kind of major disaster or confrontation or law enforcement action, the initial reports
are always usually the most factual, as you say, the most usable information.
to that, when the news becomes controlled, all of the truth begins to disappear.
And we reach a point where nothing is the truth.
Isn't that what you're saying?
Yes.
Have you ever watched the one on the left?
Have you ever had a listen to him?
Yeah.
And who did he contrast to with the same?
I've heard some people show it.
No, I've never heard of it.
He says something.
He says something.
Watch.
Ready?
Yeah.
Now watch.
Oh, boy.
What's interesting to me is that the Discovery Channel did a special about survivalists and
militias and brought the bombing in and it's on this version of it.
And I think that's a good thing.
I think that's a good thing.
And CNN did a review of terrorist incidents not too long ago.
This was after the Olympic bombing, or a preparation for the Olympic bombing, and this footage was there.
And throw it in our face.
They're not even trying to hide it.
We know who this guy is, and it's showing up in mainstream propaganda media now.
Where do we go with this?
Uh, KFOR.
K-O-R-F-O-R.
Oh, this is what that means?
Yeah.
This is the unedited stuff, and you're gonna edit it down to make a report to us.
And of course, this little chunk never made it into an official report until, you know, a year after.
And I don't know if CNN knows what they put in there, do you?
Oh, it doesn't say right now, but they're sure to hear.
Oh, the other guy?
No.
I just told you, your brother.
My brother?
Sid.
Yeah, the reason Gary Hunt is important is because of John Cash's reaction to Gary Hunt's being revealed as being on the scene.
Yeah, the reason Gary Hunt is important is because of John Cash's reaction to Gary Hunt's
being revealed as being on the scene.
Last October, would you close that back door somebody, please, all the way?
Yeah, it does need to be locked because the kids need to get in, but it does need to be
locked.
Why am I changing?
Why do people get so busy with the things they sow?
the things they told me.
Well, these laughs as they come and go, but I can barely face the city that's home
is better off to me.
I ask and why?
There are few things that they can do to me
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You know how you are.
It's confusing but I don't know why.
I've made my plans already.
I've made my plans already I've been struggling all my life.
I give all my strength to do that cause.
Cause there are people I care about.
Last October, Gary Hunt came into Oklahoma City for a secret press conference that was
held in the home of Glenna Wilburn.
Present at the press conference were Glenn, John Cash, Pat Riley, Arnold Hamilton of the Dallas Morning News, Bill Jasper of the New American, and that's all of the media that were there.
At this press conference, Hunt was asked Why he was here, why he was being brought in and why he was meeting with the defense team.
And his sort of flippant response was, um, we're going to try to embarrass the government because they should have interrogated me since I look so much like the man in the KFOR video.
Well, he is the man in the KFOR video.
Okay.
We knew that he was the man in the KFOR video, but this was his story.
While he was in Oklahoma, John Cash drove him to and from Elohim City twice at the expense of the defense team.
We don't know what those visits were about.
But after those visits occurred, then all of a sudden we have, we bring Richard Wayne Snell back into the picture.
The bombing was a farewell present to him on the day of his execution in the Cummins Correctional Facility in Arkansas.
We've got Andrea Strassmeyer, who's supposed to be connected with McVeigh because they stole the knife and traded some clothes at a gun show.
McVeigh was supposed to have called him the week before the bombing.
And allegedly, the story goes, was looking for shelter after he did the dirty deed.
But if that was the case, he was headed in the wrong direction, because he was going north on 35 and to get to Elohim City, you've got to go all the way east on 40 to Muldrow, which is practically to the Arkansas state line, and then go south.
So if he was looking for shelter in Elohim City, which is a white supremacist, separatist, they are separatists, community, he was going the wrong way.
We have Jim Ellison at Elohim City, and he's living there under the Federal Witness Protection Program.
And his little deal was, back in 1985, April the 19th, his little cult group in Bull Shoal, Arkansas area, known as the Covenant, the Sword, and the Arm of the Lord, had a little run-in with the feds, because certain members of the Order, which is an extreme radical group, And they had done some murders and so forth.
Robbed some banks.
Were hiding out there at the properties.
And so the feds were going to raid it.
And they did have lots and lots of guns.
And they were trained.
And you know, they were big time into the gun scene.
Sir?
Connecticut.
Is that right?
Well yeah, that's right.
That's right.
Do you remember the incident that occurred in Alabama that killed a couple of supposed
patrons that flew into Opa-locka, Alabama?
I heard them lie.
And they had a confrontation with a cop there.
And they had some literature or whatever.
And I think, you know, they shot the cop and killed him.
And the cops searched their motel room and came up with not racist stuff, which is a good advocate, but they came up with just a general constitution and just a general patriot and white wing stuff.
Gary Hunt came to Opa-Locka, Alabama and stayed there for about two or three weeks while these
people were there because he was online and he was posting stuff and he was down there.
And he kept trying to go and visit these people and I don't know what the deal was.
I think they were out of Florida and he had come up out of Florida.
I don't know, but he was there and two or three weeks, then ...
I would have brought it with me, but Hunt also faxed over the patient fax network.
The fax on April the 19th saying what a good thing it was that the building had been blown up.
He thought that was great.
Well, anyway, he was in Oklahoma City for this press conference, a secret press conference, in October.
On November the 6th, which was a Monday, I called Wilburn, because I didn't know he'd been here.
I didn't know Cash Hunt had been here.
And I called Glenn Wilburn, and I told him that we had positively ID'd Gary Hunt.
And out of the clear blue he says, oh no, it's not him.
We have found two workers on the maintenance staff of the general record building who are just the spitting image for Gary Hunt and his accomplice.
I said, well, great, what are their names?
Let me interview them.
Got a phone number.
Well, I'll have to get back to you on that.
Never got back to me on that.
That was the beginning of a big problem with Gary Hunt and it was The real, uh, revelation of the true character of John Cash.
Now, does everybody in here know who John Cash is?
Okay.
John Cash is allegedly a freelance writer who blew into town between the 15th and 30th of June, 95, uh, with the excuse that he was going to do research to write a book about the bomb.
He supposedly came out of the town of Idabel, which is in the far southeastern corner.
of Oklahoma.
He supposedly had published some news stories in the Macalester paper and the Ida Bell paper and so forth and so on.
And he hitched his wagon right away to Representative Charles Key and Glenn Wilburn because they were the most visible and vocal at that time in asking the questions.
And Cash showed up right about the time that Edie Smith was, you know, she'd made that big speech on the day of the implosion, where were all the DATF agents?
And the BATF have been out to visit her in her home, and they've been to see Glenn in his home, and gave him all these excuses about where everybody was.
No, yeah, we had some guys that were hurt in the building, and it's okay, and we're not really trying to keep things from you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Here comes Cash.
Nicest guy you're ever likely to meet, but slimy.
I didn't like him instantly, and several other people I've talked to had that.
It's just a subjective thing.
You know, when I met John Cash in Charles Keith's office, we shook hands, and my instant reaction was that I felt like I needed to go wash.
Just oily kind of a guy.
Reminded me of my, one of the black sheep in my family.
One of my uncles.
Well, on the following Monday, which would have been the, let's see, the 6th?
The 11th was a Saturday.
It would have been the 13th.
No.
On the 6th of November, the same night that I talked to Wilbur, Pat Briley, who is an independent investigator from Edmond, who's uncovered a lot of useful stuff and some equally kind of dumb stuff.
You just kind of have to weigh it carefully.
He's a real nice guy.
He was scheduled to go on Tom Valentine's program and expose the Gary Hunt positive ID because he'd done the same thing.
He did the body proportion, body measurement proportion comparison analysis.
To determine that that was Gary Hunt.
Where you have certain measurements, you know, between the eyes, between, you know, all these different measurements of your face, that no matter how fat or thin you get, old or young you may be, those proportions, those ratios, stay the same throughout your whole life.
And that is a means of positive ID, no matter what physical state you may be in.
And Hunt had been identified that way, and Briley knew how to do it, and he'd positively He was scheduled to go on Tom Valentine's show and talk about this.
John Cash got on the phone with Tom.
Said, we need to cancel this broadcast.
We've got new information.
It wasn't Gary Hunt.
It was the maintenance man and his maintenance man friend.
The maintenance man in the Journal Records building looks a lot like Gary Hunt, but it's not Gary Hunt and it's definitely not the guy in the videotape.
I don't know about the accomplice.
I've never seen the accomplice.
I've never seen a photograph of the accomplice.
I don't know that there is an accomplice.
But for the sake of the story, there has to be one.
And I question, what are the odds that on that day, at that time, in that place, you can get these two guys, who look just like these two guys, just to be there, casually walking out, working in the journal record building.
The whole place is caved in, on fire, people are screaming and carrying on.
The bombing is about a half an hour old.
They're just casually walking around the side of the building?
I don't think so.
with electronic transmitters you got me
But every excuse Gary Hunt has given as to why he was not here has fallen through.
He told Linda Thompson that he was up in Michigan.
So Linda Thompson called all of her Michigan connections and said, no I wasn't here.
It became such a controversy that Tom Valentine invited Gary Hunt on his program.
Because Gary Hunt said that John Stadmiller from Florida had spoken to him on the phone in Florida.
And I don't remember where Hunt said he was calling from, but Stadmiller was supposed to produce his phone records and this would prove that Hunt was not in Oklahoma.
Stadmiller got on the phone and said, you never called me.
There's nothing in my phone records.
And Hunt's going, don't you remember we talked about this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and that, and that?
Said, Mrs. No.
He did not call me.
There's nothing in my phone records.
And I went back and forth, and back and forth.
And we'll probably put the transcript of it in one of the volumes of the book, because I've got it on tape.
Amazing.
But every alibi that Hunt's ever been able to come up with, no one will support him in it.
And we know he was here.
But for whatever reason, The feds don't want us to know he's here.
John Cash doesn't want us to know he's here.
Glenn Wilburn doesn't want us to know he's here.
And everybody who tries to prove that he's here gets in big, bad trouble.
Now, on November the 11th, that was a Saturday, Briley had rescheduled his program to be on Tom Valentine's show the following Monday.
Again, we were going to talk about the Hunt thing because he'd gone back over the evidence and reconfirmed it, double-checked, blah, blah, blah, and it was for real, and so he was going to try to expose this again.
Tom calls Mr. Wilburn and Mr. Cash and tells them what the plans are for the next program because in those days, oh, you know, all the independent investigators were on Valentine's Show all the time, you know, hooting and hollering about whatever theory they were working on at the time.
And that show also was canceled.
And that night, that Saturday night, Briley calls me three times.
I've never had a phone conversation with Pat Briley that lasted shorter than an hour.
And most of them were incredible marathons.
Incredible marathons.
We talked from, first from 8 until 10.
Then we talked from about 10.30 until 11.30.
And then he calls me from a pay phone because he got some threatening phone calls from John Cash, threatening his life that he didn't drop the John Cash information.
And so I told him to go back home to play me the messages on his phone box into my phone box so I could have them on tape and to call the cops and have them come out there and tell them the whole Hunt story and everything and to leave the phone line open so I could take the interview with the police.
And this he did.
Are there any children in the room at all right now?
Everybody's gone?
Okay, I want you to hear the three phone calls.
Oh, how young.
The language is extremely bad.
Wait, wait, wait.
Are we sure?
Okay.
It's pretty profane, so I apologize in advance, but I didn't say it.
Two phone calls from John Cash, five minutes apart.
And the last phone call is Lynn Wilburn.
It's coming.
Okay.
Well, Alec, why don't you quit hiding behind your wife and kids and get on the fucking
phone?
Come on, Brett-Patt.
Come on.
Get on the fucking phone.
If I have to ride to Edmond tonight, I'll do it if you don't get on the fucking phone.
If you don't call me in ten fucking minutes, I'm heading your way.
You've got ten minutes to call me, cocksucker.
Get on the phone.
Come on.
I'm going to be right there.
sucker.
Get on the fucking phone.
If you don't get on the phone in 10 minutes, I'm heading your way.
You got it?
You got 10 minutes to call me.
Saturday, 10-14-7, D-M.
Riley, you got five minutes or I'm going to call your wife tomorrow or Monday and replace
her business and talk to her.
It's your choice.
You've got five minutes.
If you want me to start talking to your wife about your stuff, I'm going to do it.
You've got five minutes.
Found your date.
10-52, be in touch.
Be in touch.
Yeah, Pat, I heard John just left the house.
Hmm.
You're the one that's got a problem now, buddy.
That's it.
He's got the right.
This is the true side of John Cash.
He doesn't want anything out about Gary Hunt.
Now Pat Browley's wife works at Dillard's in the credit department and she just happens to have two co-workers.
One of whom is the wife of Dan Vogel.
Who's head honto spokesman for the FBI in Oklahoma City.
And the other one is the wife of John Hurstley, who is the FBI agent who lied four or five times on the stand about the evidence concerning McVeigh.
He's the one who came up there and said, oh yeah, there was a, what is it, PETN, that explosive powdery stuff on his shirt and all this other stuff.
And it's his testimony primarily that Dwight Hurst, the whistleblower on the FBI labs, wants to expose as being falsified.
So there's a lot of irons in the fire that all have to do with the FBI, and John Cash, and Gary Hunt, and in this case, Pat Briley.
Because Pat's not working anywhere.
He's got a long history of hassles with everybody he's ever been in contact with, and for whatever reason, doesn't hold work very regularly, but his wife does.
And they're very much dependent on his income, and that's okay.
But how she ended up working in the same office between two head honcho wives of head honcho FBI guys is beyond me.
And what Cash was threatening Briley with was squeezing her out of a job.
And that means a lot for her to keep that job for them and their families.
Well, Briley called the cops.
Told them all about Gary Hunt, told them all about the press conference, told them all about the trip to Elohim City, told them all about John Cash, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
They took copious notes.
The taped interview I have of them interviewing Pat goes on in excess of an hour.
And they said, thank you very much, and they left.
And the following Monday, an Oklahoma City policeman shows up with an undercover FBI agent in tow to interview Broward again, and they bury the Hunt information and will not discuss it.
Uh, Browley has called him and called him and called him and called him because he's real passed on the phone.
He wants to force the conflict.
He wants them to admit that Gary Hunt was there because he was there and Lincoln Curry was there and they know he was there.
But they're burying the entire incident.
So the presence of Hunt there when you saw him must be really critical to something, to someone.
Hunt? Yes.
Making trouble.
undercover agent and a provocative lawyer under the employer of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms.
Is he a military man?
I don't know.
Probably not even a Bureau of Medicine.
Yeah.
Last December, from the 17th through the 21st, I did extensive, lengthy, I mean hours and
hours and hours and hours of interviews with James Nichols, his dad Robert, and Bob Popovich,
their close friend, pal, mentor, neighbor.
It was at that series of meetings that we all sat down at Chuck Allen's dining room table and put all the John Cash pieces on the table.
And I had information that he'd been in banking.
He has no visible means of support.
He came upon his money in a great hurry.
He got out of banking just in time to participate in the property liquidations when the RTC came in to do the savings and loan, you know, fix all that stuff up.
Collected a bunch of properties for pennies on the dollar, turned around and sold them, made a mess.
John Cash had told Nichols when he went up to Michigan to see him, he says, Well, I just wanted to tell you so you don't find out later and hold it against me.
I'm a member of the CFR.
He said, uh, I quit paying my dues in 1991, so I've dropped out.
But just in case you found out about that later, I didn't want you to think that I'd withheld the information from you.
You don't quit paying dues to the CFR and drop out.
It's not like the Boy Scouts.
You know, swimming lessons where you get tired of it, you just stop going.
This guy was groomed to be part of that organization, was invited to be part of that organization, and whether he paid or not is really immaterial.
If they didn't remove him, he then.
So we've got that little piece of the puzzle.
Now wasn't the savings and loan thing a CIA operation?
Yeah.
Last year, savings and loan was instigated and carried out by the Central Intelligence
Agency to literally remove the savings and loans from the American bank for that really
corporate operation.
That's John Cash.
And now that Tom Valentine is off the air, you hear him more and more frequently speaking on Jeff Harder's program.
He was on about My sense of time has been really weird for the past month.
I guess about three weeks ago.
And his story keeps changing.
There's just lots and lots of changes in what Cash thinks is going on.
But there's one main theme throughout.
First, he wanted to tell us we had the Middle Eastern connection and he was all gung-ho on the KFOR John Doe number two story where it was supposed to be this Middle Eastern guy named Ali Hussain Hussaini.
Well, that guy's story pretty much checked out, now there's lawsuits flying for defamation of character and all that stuff.
Then he wanted to bring Elohim City and the Neo-Nazis in on it, and Stroessmayer and Jim Ellison and Richard Wayne Snell, and so the white supremacists did it.
And then he wanted the interior explosion of the Murrah building to have been accidental because the BATF had illegally stored explosives in the building.
Um, and then he has come on to say that General Parton's evidence is all wrong.
Were you waving your hand back?
Okay.
But see, Cash is no expert at anything except lying.
You know, he goes on the air and he talks about how, how wrong General Parton's information is.
And he says, you know, the guy never went to explosive school.
Well, there wouldn't be an explosive school if it hadn't been for Parton.
You know, it's just amazing.
But the main thing he wants to do is to make sure that the second explosion, which they're eventually going to have to face, they can't get away from the seismic evidence.
It's beginning to weigh very, very heavily on them.
So they're going to have to eventually come out and say, yes, yes, it was a second explosion, but it was a terrible accident.
And this will explain the asymmetry in the damage to the building.
And maybe the little criminal negligence or something, but certainly not murder.
Oh, it didn't happen that way.
It wasn't an accident.
And of course, in the meantime, while he's telling this big tale, the BATF is saying, well, they were all inert.
All those things with the hand grenades and all this other stuff that were up there, they were all inert training devices.
No comment.
Glenn Wilburn.
is not the same Glenn Wilburn that I knew last year.
And you'll be seeing him a lot in Patriot Shortwave as well.
Now I don't think either one of those guys have been on Jeff Baker yet.
But with Tom Valentine gone, who have we got left?
We've got Jeff Baker, we've got Bo Brides, we've got Carter.
Who are other?
Cornkey?
Rethnik. And that's another story.
This is a story about a man who was in love with a woman.
He was a young man, and he had a dream.
There used to be a green tower alone on the sea.
You could play the life on the dark side of me.
Love remains a drug that's high enough to kill.
But did you know that when it's known, my eyes become a lover.
The light but too sharp can't be dimmed So sad, I can't bring you to a kiss while the world goes on
its way Ooh, the moment you break I feel you tear
And now that you're gone with me I'd like to be with you all again
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry
There's so much I must've promised So much I need to say
Please remain my power, my treasure, my faith Baby, I know that you feel like I'm gonna do something I
can't deny But once you're gone, you don't have to say goodbye
Just to recap a little bit, ladies and gentlemen, on what you heard for the last hour, just in case you may have
missed it.
For John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, Texas.
He was assassinated in a Temple of the Sun upon the site of the first Masonic Lodge built in Dallas.
When the Branch Davidians were murdered in Waco, Texas, it turns out that Waco is the home of the Grand Lodge of the state of Texas, the Grand Lodge of the southern jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.
It now turns out that all of the land upon which the Mira Federal Building sits and the surrounding property is owned... Yep, you guessed it, ladies and gentlemen.
by the Southern jurisdiction of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry.
It turns out the Governor of Oklahoma, Governor Keating, is also a very highly degreed Freemason and holds the Order of the Holy Sepulcher, which was conferred upon him by the Pope.
You're with them, I can make them tell me so I'll do the same
My power, my pleasure, my faith The Voice of Freedom
The Voice of Freedom The Voice of Freedom
The Voice of Freedom You're listening to the Worldwide Freedom Radio Network.
We now return you to the Hour of the Time.
Light hour of the hour, blazes hour of the time. Light hour for the broken good, for pure one, soul divine.
Light hour of the hour, blazes hour of the time.
Welcome back to the Hour of the Time, ladies and gentlemen.
We now continue with...
I don't know if he's ever been on Helder's program.
I don't think he has been.
Yeah.
Well, you're going to be seeing these guys.
at the annual intelligence service convention which was held in Norman Oklahoma.
Yeah. I don't know if he's ever been on Helders program. I don't think he has been. Yeah.
Well you're going to be seeing these guys. When I met Glenn Wilburn before they imploded
the building, I met him because I wanted to interview Edie about what the feds had told
her about where the BATF agents were.
And on May the 11th, Bill had world premiered the department report on shortwave for the first time anywhere ever.
And I had that information and I was willing to trade that information for their information from the feds.
So we stood in his front yard Talking for over an hour.
He was a real nice man.
And he was very vulnerable emotionally.
It was just, you know, real soon.
The building hadn't come down yet.
It was still there.
They hadn't imploded it yet.
And we were going to try to use the Parton Report and file amicus briefs and all sorts of things like this to stop the implosion of the building, the premature destruction of the crime scene.
And so he was very, very interested in that information.
He hadn't met John Cash yet.
We became fairly friendly and for a time there was this nice little circle of investigators doing work.
It was Wilburn and Charles Key and me and Pat Riley and the Thorstenbergs and somebody else.
I forget now.
I fell away pretty early on.
And everybody shared every little piece of information with everybody else.
And we all interviewed.
There are some good parts of that videotape.
Tony Garrett's testimony is very good and confirmed.
Michael Hinton's testimony is very good and confirmed.
Pat Riley's testimony is good and confirmed.
And everything that came out of John Cash's mouth is a big lie and we've proven it.
And it's all in volume one of my book.
But he talked on that videotape more than any other person.
Now with Wilburn, his personality has completely changed and his relationship with John Cash has changed him and his entire life.
John Cash used to drive in from Idabel to do a few little interviews with some witnesses and survivors, rescuers or something like that and stay in our motel, have dinner with the Wilburns and tell them what he's learned and then go back home.
Gradually over a period of time, his encroachment, he just swallowed the man up.
Cash has swallowed up the family.
He now lives in Wilburn's home, almost exclusively.
And when you talk to Mr. Wilburn and you talk to Mr. Cash, separately, apart from one another, when you can get them apart from one another, about the same subject, they will respond with the same phrases, the same words, the same inflection, exactly.
I mean, it's like turning on the robot and turning off the robot.
Exactly the same words.
It's astounding.
So at this point, I can't trust Cash, can't trust Wilburn, can't trust Key.
Key thinks John Cash is the greatest investigator since Sherlock Holmes.
Chuck Allen is very nervous about John Cash because he's very afraid of him and he is now withholding evidence from Key because he knows what Key knows Wilburn knows, what Wilburn knows Cash knows.
What Cash knows disappears.
Witnesses change their stories.
Stories disappear.
People don't want to talk anymore.
Stories change.
Oh, I wasn't really there.
People disappear.
So, see, there's a follow-up video that Chuck Gallim's making.
I don't know what the name of it's going to be, but the information he's collecting for that, a lot of it he's sitting on privately.
Now, I don't know how he's going to break it.
To the powers that be that control the purse strings on those video productions when he's got all his footage ready to put together in the editing room but he's not going to tell what he's got until the last minute because he's concerned what Cash will do with it.
Cash is a real real real dangerous man and when we were Planning the Oklahoma City What Happened video, David and I were invited to dinner out to Thorsenburg.
It was a planning meeting.
It was the first meeting.
They decided they were going to do it.
They'd gotten some money together.
Chuck was going to direct and produce and kind of work out a format.
And Mrs. Thorsenburg was going to write the scripted parts and kind of put the screenplay together.
And her husband, who fancies himself another Stravinsky, was going to do the score and blah, blah, blah.
And David and I came away from the dinner.
and called Charles the next day and said, well, thank you very much for including us,
but we wish to decline from the project.
And the reason that we chose to decline from the project was because that at that time,
which was August of this May, June, July, August, four months after the.
Bring it on. First, I didn't have the will to carry on.
I was supposed to see them and they were American citizens anyway.
Of Middle Eastern descent.
But they could not see it, wouldn't see it, wouldn't even discuss it.
And at that point, we knew that.
uh...
Bye.
We didn't want our names associated with it.
And the videotape, when it finally came out, Chuck, I got to see it, and I thought, oh man.
And Chuck called me up and said, hey, you think Bill Cooper will promote this on his program?
I said, no, I'm sure he will not.
So why not?
It's a great video.
Tell the truth.
I said, no, he said not.
He said, well, there's a lot of truth in that.
I said, well, some.
He said, well, what's the matter?
I said, well, it's John Cash, you see.
And over the next hour, I went through everything that John Cash had said on the videotape with Chuck and told him what the truth was and gave him all the evidence and the proof just like we do in the book.
Took it apart phrase by phrase.
And when we were all done, his response was, well, can't he overlook that part?
Because he really wanted to sell these tapes.
He had a lot of money sunk in the project and said, no, the John Cash appearance discredits the entire project.
And you can't sell something that's only half good.
Bill can't.
That's why I didn't want to be a part of it, Chuck.
And he still doesn't really understand that.
It's supposed to be okay that Tony Garrett's information was good and Michael Hinton's information was good.
But John Cass is the main star of the show.
And he sits back there.
Well, he did this and we interviewed that and they said da-da-da and of course it needs this.
Don't believe it.
It's a bunch of bull.
I want to talk to you about John John number three for a minute.
I don't remember who the news guy is, but he's a major national figure.
Okay, I'll need to take the mic over there.
Turn the sound up.
You just have to watch this for three or four minutes.
You just have to watch it for three or four minutes, something like that.
Okay.
That'd be great.
Very good.
Okay.
Here's one part of the Oklahoma City story that's not getting much attention at WIC,
However...
Remember the Jordanian-American man who immediately after the bombing became the prime suspect, public enemy number one?
And this is Roger O'Neill has his story for us.
One hour and 41 minutes after the bomb exploded.
But in fact, the search never did end.
And ABC News has learned the FBI is still very much in the hunt for John Doe number two, based on the testimony of certain key eyewitnesses.
In our investigation, we've retraced the steps of FBI agents, starting at the Ryder Truck Outlet in Junction City, Kansas, where two employees, including Tom Kessinger, continue to insist to federal agents that a second man was with Timothy McVeigh.
There was somebody with him.
Yes.
Looks like the search.
I hope.
Kessinger's account is backed up by a former housekeeper at the Greenland Motel, Hilda Fosley.
Who says she saw McVeigh there?
And a man similar to the sketch of John Doe Number 2 getting into a Ryder truck.
And beyond John Doe Number 2, there was also a John Doe Number 3.
he's coming and then he just goes toward the truck.
And beyond John Doe number two there was also a John Doe number three at least according to Jeff
Davis who delivered Chinese food to McVeigh's motel room on the night of April 15th last year.
It wasn't McVeigh I delivered to.
And it wasn't John Doe No.
2 I delivered to.
So ABC News hired leading sketch artist Jean Boylan who drew both John Doe No.
2 as well as the Unabomber for the FBI.
And we asked her to do something the FBI did not.
Come up with a sketch of the man Jeff Davis says he saw in McVeigh's motel room.
He's as real in the sketch as he was the day I delivered to him.
And it's not McVeigh.
It's not John Doe No.
2.
It's an entirely different person that's out there somewhere.
The testability of these witnesses about other men who haven't been identified or even caught complicates but does not derail the case against McVeigh and Nichols.
But several authorities do admit that one year later, there is still a lot that is not known About who, or how many, were responsible for what happened here.
Brian Ross, ABC News, Oklahoma City.
I'm going to run it back and look at it again.
Does that look like Spiegelman to you?
As well as the Unabomber for the FBI.
And we asked her to do something the FBI did not.
Come up with a sketch of the man Jeff Davis says he saw in McVeigh's motel room.
Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Number three, at least according to Jeff Davis, who delivered tiny food to Ms.
Bae's motel room on the night of April 15th last year.
It wasn't Ms.
Bae I delivered to, and it wasn't John Doe number two I delivered to.
So ABC News hired leading sketch artist Gene Boylan, who drew both John Doe... ...reporting FBI.
And we asked her to do something the FBI did not.
Come up with a... It wasn't the fan I delivered to.
And it wasn't John Doe Number Two I delivered to.
So ABC News hired leading sketch artist Gene Boylan who drew both John Doe Number Two as well as the Unabomber for the FBI.
And we asked her to do something the FBI did not.
Come up with a sketch.
We hired leading sketch artist, Gene Boylan, who drew both Gondo No. 2...
2 as well as the Unabomber for the FBI.
And we asked her to do something the FBI did not.
Come up.
3.
Kavinsky.
And what happened is right before our eyes, she drew the sketch of John Doe No.
3, which was the exact twin of Kavinsky, who is the Unabomber.
And that was an incredible discovery.
You'll do the film, Grabber?
So we're discussing now how we're going to treat this evidence and how we're going to take these sketches off the videotape in order to work with them more.
And we are not ready to discuss our findings yet at this time.
However, I can tell you that the sketch artist drew, as John Doe No.
3, an exact twin of the man who was arrested, who is known universally as the Unabomber.
Incredible, you say?
Ladies and gentlemen, there is absolutely nothing about the bombing of the Oklahoma
City Mural Federal Building that is not incredible.
The truth is, he couldn't get funding to support his broadcast.
Before I leave the John Cash subject, The latest lie he's been caught in is there was a gathering, a sort of a reunion of rescuers and firefighters down at the Myriad and John Cash showed up wearing a camera and he told Oklahoma City Police Officer Browning that he was a cameraman with NBC and that he had lived
With James and Terry and Tim before the bombing.
Well that's news to James Nichols that John Cash ever lived with them before the bombing.
I don't know why he told that story.
I don't know why he told Officer Browning that he was with NBC.
I mean the guy is known all over town.
He's extremely well connected.
For someone who's doing such dangerous work in uncovering the Feds, he has an awful lot of federal friends who are helping him, cooperating with him.
He's in Goody Goody with Lester Marx.
He's a big shot with the BATF in Dallas.
He's real good with the FBI in Oklahoma City.
And the story goes that there was this terrible sting operation that went awry and the FBI is tired of cleaning up the BATF's messes.
And they want to let the BATF twist in the wind.
And so John Cash goes on Chuck Harter's show a couple of weeks ago and says, well I've been promised they're going to give me the true story here just any time.
The FBI's promising this to John Cash?
I don't think so.
I just don't think so.
So, the only reason I wanted to cover Cash in detail like this was because you're going to see a lot of him.
You're going to hear a lot of him.
It's getting desperate.
The feds are wrangling now.
They've got some very big problems in the prosecution's case.
And they've botched it bad.
And I think they think they're going to lose.
Yes.
This is the only show talking about books he has written?
He hasn't written any books.
Then I think I'm going to go home.
He is on Harder's show.
He promotes Oklahoma City, what happened, all the time.
Not a book, huh?
But he does promote the video extensively.
Yeah.
They were there that morning.
They expected the explosion to happen at 6 o'clock in the morning.
They were there, the bomb squad, VATF, the FBI, police, fire department, everybody.
We're all there and nothing happened.
We waited around a couple of hours and they all went home and the building blew up.
Yeah, the bomb squad left between uh... When did Nancy see them there?
Norma went to work at 7.30.
They were there at 8 o'clock.
They were there at 8.30.
They left and the building blew up 32 minutes after they left.
Yes, sir.
What would that do with your internal charges being there and it was both false and fake?
Why didn't they find them and take them out?
Why didn't they find them and take them out?
That's what I'm saying.
Let me ask you a question, Cicely.
All this speculation and self-examination is useless.
Every time we have this conference, a lot of time is taken up with that sort of stuff.
She operates with facts.
She does not speculate.
She doesn't want to hear speculation.
She does not decide for her experience.
She tries to do her theory right.
She does not cover facts.
She doesn't do any political analysis of the problem.
She doesn't do any of this stuff at all.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
I'm not going to be able to do that.
So now you know the true character of John Cash and you've heard the kind of threats
he made against Pat who wanted to go public with the Gary Hunt information.
Thank you.
And you know, some of the theories, hypotheses that he propounds, all of which in near to the benefit of the prosecution, there's no theory or piece of evidence that he's allegedly manufactured or uncovered that has ever benefited the revealing of the truth of the situation.
And every time there has been something come up that benefited the truth of the situation, he's done back flips to destroy that.
Now he's trying to take down General Pardons.
Trying to wipe him off the map because he's going to be called an expert witness for the defense.
Or so the rumor goes.
There have not been any witness lists released yet.
But I mean, you know, he will be called, I'm sure.
I'm sure he will be called.
Now we've got a problem here with the militia connection.
Of course, we know there wasn't a militia connection.
But John Taft would like very much for there to be a militia connection, and that same militia has to be right-wing, white supremacist, extremist, survivalist, gun-coding, neo-Nazi type.
Has to be that to fit this nice little fantasy that he's built with Elohim City and Andrea Strathmire and Michael Brescia in Pennsylvania and all these other oddball characters.
But you have to go farther back.
To when was McVeigh really arrested and by whom?
Okay, the official story is that McVeigh was arrested by an Oklahoma State Highway Patrol trooper, troop guy, Charlie Hanger, 90 minutes, give or take a few, after the bombing, on I-35 going north, just outside of, I just blanked out on the name of the town.
It's not the town they say.
No.
I want to say Billings.
Billings.
Close to Noble County.
It's a 90 minute drive.
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
Perry.
Yeah, but it's not Perry.
It's before you get to Perry.
It's where he was stuck.
I don't know.
Marshall and Billin.
There's two little towns.
One of them starts with a B. North.
On I-35.
Before you get to Perry.
After Perry.
90 minutes from up on the city north on I-35.
Okay?
Just to be clear.
And the story goes that they arrested him because he didn't have a tag on the back of the car, he didn't have any insurance verification in his car, and he was carrying a concealed weapon.
And then the story goes that he sat there in jail for several days while they flashed the sketches all over the world in the biggest manhunt in history for these two guys who supposedly blew up the building, and Nobody puts the pieces together.
They're in the Noble County Jail.
And some friend of McVeigh's fingers him, calls the FBI and says, I know who that is.
And somehow or another, the police guys in Noble County go, isn't that some guy we had back in that back cell?
And then they notify the feds on Friday, the 21st, and sometime around 11 o'clock in the morning, Eastern Time.
The feds move in, take the jurisdiction away, take the prisoner.
Then we have this long wait while they're waiting for the media to gather, of course, and there may have been, well, there may have been speculations, to move him out of the Noble County Jail to bring him to Tinker Air Force Base for the little hearing, which didn't make any sense either.
That's what the story is.
But the Santa Latte County News in Michigan, City of Holmes and Curtis, great big newspaper,
four pages long, Santa Latte County News is a little community newspaper that's published
near Decker, in Decker, where James Nichols Farm is.
They report on Saturday, April 22nd, that federal authorities arrested Timothy James McVeigh
on Wednesday, but he was arrested by state, or so the story goes.
They said, a friend of Terry Nichols, Tom McVeigh, was apprehended in Oklahoma.
Now, where have we heard that name before?
The book.
Martin Keating.
See, I'm assuming this is a small-time newspaper.
It's a typographical error, but isn't it an odd one to make?
Because in so many paragraphs before, we've got Timothy James McVeigh, right as rain.
Perfect.
But over here, a friend of Terry Nichols, Tom McVeigh, This is one of the characters in Final Jihad written by the brother of the governor of the state of Oklahoma.
Now all of a sudden our suspect is Thomas A. He was apprehended in Oklahoma.
Then it says something very interesting.
The Sanilac County drama began unfolding Thursday around 11 p.m.
when the FBI contacted the Sheriff's Department.
Federal officers began arriving in Sanilac County by 5 a.m.
Friday They set up a command post in the county conference room at Austin Street, Sandusky.
According to Sheriff Virgil Strickler, Perry Nichols had joined a local militia group but was kicked out because his views were too radical.
The feds were setting up to raid James Nichols' farm before the feds knew they had Tim McVeigh in the Perry County Jail, Noble County Jail, and they couldn't have put James Nichols into it at all without Tim.
I didn't say that right, did I?
Let me back up and try it again.
The feds are setting up James before the feds know they have McVeigh.
But they can't have James if they don't have McVeigh.
Because that's the only connection.
Because McVeigh put down on his next of kin line on the jail card next of kin James Nichols.
So we have a real big question when the feds were really moving You can speculate a lot about what this means.
But I personally did not believe that they didn't know they had McVeigh.
I think they knew they had McVeigh long before McVeigh knew he'd been had.
Yes.
I'm going to try to get this to work.
you Fell on my feet this morning.
Two angels heard me cry.
This is your fate you're after.
The future is my friend.
It hurts but it treats me well.
Take hold of me, my friend.
The Hour of the Time is brought to you by Swiss America Trading.
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.
Well that's real interesting.
We can sure talk about that.
We'll see, we've got helicopters now on Wednesday and Friday.
.
So I'm not sure exactly what's going on.
We've got eyewitnesses.
Who saw McVeigh stop by the side of I-35 at the time of the arrest.
And Hanger going over to the car and all these people standing around and a military helicopter dropping down out of the sky, landing.
Guys in military gear getting out and then something happened.
McVeigh taken away in the chopper.
From the place where the arrest occurred to the Noble County Jail, it's only a 15 minute drive.
You don't need a chopper or anybody in or out for No license plate, no insurance verification, and a concealed weapon?
Then when the news was breaking on Friday, shortly before noon.
See, it all happened in perfect sequence.
First we get the breaking story about Noble County guys find out that they've got the prime suspect in the bombing in their own jail.
They didn't even know it.
So now we bring in the feds.
At the same time that's happening, we've got the raid beginning in Decker, Michigan.
That Noble County News breaks, about 30 minutes later, the Michigan Decorade News breaks.
And oh, it all begins to tie in.
When that McVeigh news was breaking, people were calling in KTOK and reporting a military-style helicopter parked on the shoulder of the road.
By the old yellow beat up marquee with no tag.
And a bunch of feds with the FBI and DATF jackets on, waltzing around.
They said it didn't look tense, they couldn't see anybody being arrested because allegedly the arrest took place two days before, which nobody knew at that time.
But we got helicopters there, of military origin, and feds, standing by the highway doing something to that car, or doing something to One of possibly three different McVeigh's on Wednesday the day of the alleged arrest and on Friday the day they decided to tell us about the alleged arrest.
And I don't know what it means.
Right.
Possibly yes.
you Well, since McVeigh was down there in Waco selling those Is Your Church VATF approved bumper stickers,
James Nichols thinks that's when they started surveilling him back at the Michigan.
He had made him a nice target.
So we have evidence existing of much, much foreknowledge on the part of the feds about
A massive cover-up.
That the Feds knew they had McVeigh from the beginning.
He was surveilled and photographed in Waco.
That they were after James Nichols before they admitted that they knew they had McVeigh.
Since they were set up the night before they even told us anything about McVeigh.
That we had military helicopters on the arrest site.
on Wednesday and Friday and at the Noble County Courthouse.
We got Dr. Louis Jolion West flying into Oklahoma City on the day he was moved from Tancre to El Reno and then showing up again the following September.
Master mind control, psychiatric experiment, brain fry guy.
Yes, sir.
I'm a member of the Psychic Engineers in UCLA, which is one of the main contract experiment
locations for CIA intelligence units.
That's the one time we set up a mind control experiment in a band in Mississippi, California,
where they were experimenting with children.
Behavioral experiments that have been a major challenge for the CIA.
We've had a number of those.
complete resume is in the appendices of the book.
Thank you.
Dr. Louis Jolyon, J-O-L-Y-A-N-O-N, Jolyon, West.
Right, yeah, he was on the psychiatric staff at OU.
in here in Norman for 15 years and did LSD experiments.
Somebody asked me, oh, I needed to tell you too.
The remanufacture of the seismic evidence is going to come up again.
You're going to hear about this.
Dr. Raymond Brown over at Geologic Surveys, he has now been convinced that the feds have released to him the real original omniplex record.
We've already done this scene once.
Now we're going to do it again.
The excuse is that the Omniplex record that we've all seen, it's been published everywhere, the Veritas published first, that we got before the Fed seized the original, well, the copy machine wasn't very good.
And so where the blank lines are, the copy machine just didn't copy that ink very well.
I mean, I'm telling you, this is the story.
Bad copy machine.
It's total bullshit.
So you're going to see and hear new tales.
That the Feds have released the actual real OmniFlex seismic record and you're going to see all the lines drawn in and it's going to look like something else entirely.
It's funny to say.
It's been manufactured.
But they have convinced Dr. Brown that it's the real thing.
And they had convinced his associates that it's the real thing.
And they were convinced that it's the real thing.
Are you ready for the John Dale tape?
I'll tell you when, let me set it up.
John Dale, for many, many years ago, was a talk show host on KCOK radio and he just owned Oklahoma City.
Greatly beloved by all.
He's now a talk show, has a talk show on KFYI in Phoenix and there's a great brouhaha about comments he made on his radio program a couple of weeks ago and because his remarks were so offensive and got people so upset they had to bring him in, I guess by phone, no he came in person to the studio to do a program with Carol Arnold on KTOK radio where he discussed and defended his remarks.
Now I'm going to let you hear a little chunk The piece of tape you're going to hear is from the alleged offensive show from Phoenix and he's talking to a caller who called his program there.
Okay, can you roll that?
What is it?
Oh!
Skip it.
I'll come back to it.
Go to John Darryl.
Hey, I'm a little bit confused.
I heard you say earlier in the program, right at the beginning, talking about Oklahoma City and mentioning that there weren't any innocent victims in Oklahoma City.
No, I didn't say that.
There's a gentleman called in on a car phone that asked if I considered those to be innocent victims.
But I never said the children were not innocent victims.
What about the adults?
I don't consider them to be innocent victims, no.
They're part of the system.
Well, okay, let's say that you have a 25-year-old woman who's a mother of two, she's divorced, and she's raising her kids, and she doesn't want to go on welfare, so she gets a... she's a high school graduate, and she goes to get a job as a secretary at the FBI or the BATF.
And she dies in the bombing.
Is she an innocent victim?
Not in my opinion.
Why?
Because she's part of the system.
She's part of the people that are enforcing these laws and these agencies that we're all complaining about.
She is taking the money from these people to go ahead and be their support personnel.
It's just like this.
Uh, you get in a combat situation as far as the military is concerned.
And you got a guy back in the back area, and he's a cook.
He looked at basic training.
He had eight weeks, but he was going to be a cook and a baker.
He never took heavy weapons.
He never went on to finish basic training with all the weapons training and whatever else.
Artillery comes in and blows up his cook tent and he and a whole bunch of cooks die.
Are they innocent victims because they were non-combatants?
No, they were support teams and they were there and they were keeping these guys alive up front.
They were putting out supposedly hot meals or MRIs or whatever they are anymore.
They call them... Meals ready to eat.
Yeah, MREs or whatever else, you know.
They're the support personnel.
So are you saying that the FBI in Oklahoma City is comparable to the German military or say the North Vietnamese military?
Uh, they're comparable to the American military.
So in terms of being an enemy?
They are as far as I'm concerned.
John Dale, former KTOK... Those comments, as you can well imagine, sparked an awful lot of controversy all over Oklahoma City on both sides of the question.
Because you had People saying, you know, let the victims get over it.
We've had enough.
Let's just move on with life.
And then you had the other guy saying, well, yeah, the government is the enemy.
And it was an act of war.
I couldn't play it.
The whole show is an hour long.
I can't play it all to you.
But the context was that the adult victims of the bombing were war casualties.
Therefore, the only innocent victims in the bombing were the children.
The government workers, whether they knew it or not, were the enemy.
The enemy of who?
The militias!
See?
This whole premise, this whole baloney thing with John Dale is based upon the premise that the militia, right-wing extremists, neo-Nazi bad guys, white supremacists already said that, gun guys, did it.
They didn't do it.
If it was an act of war, it was an act of war perpetrated by the federal government against the American people.
In which case, yeah, they were all innocent victims.
They got it done to them bad.
But they're not innocent victims because there were casualties in a war of constitutionalists against the feds.
So you have to, when you hear these controversial things, and there are a dime a dozen, love to get people stirred up, you've got to weigh what is the premise off of which they're operating.
Remember when Dan was talking the other day about major premise, minor premise, conclusion.
The major premise of John Dale's whole thing was that the militia right-wing extremists were responsible for it, and in their mind, They were doing a war act against the federal government whom they consider to be the enemy.
Second premise was that all those workers who work for the federal government are also the enemy and were war casualties.
Therefore, there were casualties, not innocent civilian victims.
Big kill for the good guys or whatever.
That's crap!
The militias did not do it.
The right-wing extremists didn't do it.
We didn't do it.
Even though John J. Nutter says, if we did what we probably wanted to, if we did what we probably could tomorrow, maybe we're thinking about it.
Maybe we wish we did it.
I mean, you know you guys, I think I'm getting bitter.
I want to...
I want to call back, okay?
We're all heartache.
We're not coming back to this.
We're gonna watch a little video thing and we're gonna scrape some lines.
And that is the right way up.
Go ahead.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
I'm on your mind.
Don't tease out for someone else I hear your voice on the phone
I hear you feel so alone, my baby Oh, my baby
Please, my baby you
you My baby.
I'm.
I'm.
When we were young.
And truth was paramount.
We were father and son.
This is Garth Brooks.
In his new hip, bum, and toe.
The whole premise of the song is they can do all this hatred stuff, but it won't change my heart.
We didn't do any hatred stuff to anybody.
It was done to us and to our country.
And this is class that is terrifically moving and emotionally very, very deep.
And at the end, you watch, as you can see, I told you about Operation Trojan Horse.
After the theme page, it says, Horse of Troy Production.
Okay?
You know what I told you about Operation Trojan Horse?
It's real.
Can you, several years back, you know...
I'm so happy.
I have seen the album.
Would you take the mic over here?
Oh, thank you, Brett.
I can do this.
No, it's fine.
I'm back.
Thank you.
I'm back.
Well, last time we were asking the question, what is the deal, and where is Billy Pym?
Absolutely.
Thank you to the people outside the community who helped.
Asking you to say it, I think you'll agree he did.
Now the world broadcast premiere of George Bush's newest video, a moving tribute to the victims, survivors, and rescue workers of the Oklahoma City bombing.
We leave you this evening with The Change.
Thank you.
I'm. The. One.
Ho Ho Ho Ah
and fall.
And they say you are good at it.
But strange injustice.
It's like we're friends, friends.
In the fury of a storm And I hear them saying You'll never change a thing And no matter what you do It's still the same thing But it's not the world that I am taking I do this so this world will know that it will not change me.
Yes, I still believe that love and mercy still exist.
While all this hate is late, so many say, that love is on the point, that it's a dead end.
It's like climbing a star for finding With the moisture from a chance of
Not even saying You'll never change things
And no matter what you do It's still the same thing
That it's not the way that I am changing I dare to show
This world will know That it will not change
As long as one heart still holds on Then love is never giving go
Not even fair.
You'll never change me.
And no matter what you do, you'll never save me.
You're stronger than I am, baby.
I confess so.
This world we know.
Never change with me.
What I do, just so this world will know that it will not change.
There's no reason for you to lose your mind, cause I think something is changing.
That's gonna change our time.
If I could, I'd make you understand.
I could, I may dream the same There's no hurry, if you're gonna come for sure
I know that someday, we'll join in the war If I could, I may do all the same
And if I could, I could do it all again If I could, I may do all the same
I may do all the same Yeah!
Thank you.
the Voice of Freedom.
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