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April 12, 1993 - Bill Cooper
58:05
Gary Hunt WACO
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Lights out of the hour, in the hour of the time.
of the time. Once upon a great oasis of pure water and sea, I am.
I love this sfit.
Good evening, across America and around the world.
I'm William Cooper, and yes, folks, my voice is once again failing.
I beg your patience and your forgiveness, but don't worry about me.
Remember Randy Weaver and pray for those under siege by federal forces in Waco, Texas.
They have committed no crime.
They have broken no law.
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The Siege continues in Waco, Texas.
A small group of American citizens exercising their rights under Article One of the Constitution, which gives them freedom of religion, and their rights under the Second Article and Amendment to the Constitution, which gives them the right to keep and bear arms.
They have committed no crime.
They have broken no laws.
They are resisting alone overwhelming odds in an attempt to stop the encroaching totalitarian
socialist state that we will all know as the New World Order.
The person on the other end of the line here with me is Mr.
Gary Hunt, who's been in Waco, is since shortly after the beginning of this month.
He's been following everything that's been happening there and we're going to get his version of what he's seen, what he's heard from the people that he's talked to, the experiences that he's had with the law enforcement agencies and those people known as Branch Davidian who are still held hostage by Federal Storm Troopers in Waco, Texas.
Gary, welcome to the Hour of the Time.
Thank you, Bill.
What can you tell us about the situation as it stands right now?
Well, right now, the disease continues.
The optimism of the vast dividend is higher than it has been in the first ten days of the disease, at least.
I think they're becoming aware that America is behind them, or at least the people of America.
How are they finding this out, Gary?
Do they have a shortwave radio?
Do they have regular radios?
Are they able to hear what's going on outside that compound?
We know at least that they're picking up two GPS out of Dallas, an AM station, and that they are picking up the press conferences that are held every morning at 10.30.
Great.
Well, they do have a lot of support out here from patriots who really understand what this is all about and that it really is the second battle in a war that's being fought against the American people.
Why did you go to Waco, Texas, Gary?
Well, from the February 28th, a friend of mine from Kerrville, Texas, called me and asked if I knew what was occurring in Waco.
At the time, about 1134, the time I did not, the adventure had just begun unfolding.
I called the local TV station, Channel 10, which had covered the original series, and in speaking with the reporter there, as he was reading off the monitor, he kept referring to the cult.
However, in a casual conversation, he mentioned that they were a fact.
I realized then that something was beginning to influence the press, and the story sounded quite a bit like what happened last August up in Idaho.
I continue to follow that through Thursday of that first week and by then I realized that something was occurring down here that was going to significantly affect American history over the course of our country for some time to come.
By Saturday then I was prepared to leave my business and come out here for the duration.
I did not expect at the time that it would be nearly this long, but I wanted to see firsthand
what was happening and attempt to affect that if I could.
I've been out here in the business and I do plan on staying until this is over.
Well, I commend you for that, Gary, and I think there should be many more people down there
lending support to those people, and I firmly believe that if two or three million Americans
would show up and just very quietly stand unarmed around that compound,
that the siege would have to be lifted at that point, and there would have to be a congressional investigation
called.
However, I don't give too much hope that that's going to happen.
But we'll have to wait and see.
What happened when you got there?
What was the first thing that you did?
Well, one of the ideas that I had when I came here between Thursday and Saturday when I flew out.
In fact, I had drawn up instructions to do exactly what you just mentioned.
I had been told by some people first Saturday when I left that there would be between 200 and 500 people here.
And then Sunday morning, a number that I had been told had raised to 900 people.
As it was, about 80 people showed up in Waco, and out of those 80, 20 were willing at one point to go out and physically intervene.
I don't know how many, but they entered a camp out between the BAP forces and the Camp Pavilion Church.
by the time we were ready to go, that it was a little too...
perhaps three of us still willing to go.
It was just a potential risk of going against the army out there.
Well, that's what happens when things get down to real nitty-gritty, real protecting your country.
All of these sheeple out there willing to send their sons and daughters off to die in the Sahara Desert or someplace in the Middle East called George Bush and all the other oil people can keep their oil and get rich, but when it comes to standing up and protecting their own country, they just melt away.
into the darkness.
Why did that happen?
If people would stop and think what is happening here in Waco, that the Brass Davidians are perhaps the only Patriot in this country.
Right now, at their very last, they're defending every door in this country.
And very few of us are willing to offer them any assistance in that effort.
That's correct.
There's not a door in this country that's not susceptible to being broken down by the same stormtroopers that are Absolutely, and I believe that if the people of the United States lose this battle, because the people in this compound that are surrounded and being held under siege are fighting a battle for all of us, all of our rights and freedoms, all of our creator-endowed rights, all of the protections given to us by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
And if we lose this battle, if we lose this battle, I believe that that will signify the end of the United States of America.
As we have traditionally known it, and will give the total go-ahead for the New World Order to persecute, to hound, to confiscate, to murder whoever and whatever they will.
What do you feel about that, Gary?
I feel the same.
I've equated the events down here.
Randy Weaver was a small family.
He was lost in the press.
We've got the attempt to secure the weapons that were stored in Concord back 320 years ago.
The British have come and the defenders are standing there.
It was sort of conclude back 30, 20 years ago.
The British outcome and the defenders are standing there.
If we think back of those, I guess, about 100 Americans, the first Americans,
to sit against the British troops, if they had not been willing to give their lives for a cause,
then we wouldn't have what was one of the greatest nations in the world.
It could be again if we can develop the same spirit and willingness to defend our neighbors as we would like them
to defend us, if it made the same decision.
Well, President Roosevelt once said, the way to end this problem is to put a chicken in every
pot.
And what he meant by that is, if we can just give everybody something to eat, they'll be happy and there won't be any rebellions, there won't be any uprising, there won't be any dissension, and we can go ahead and institute whatever kind of government we want.
Do you think the American people have bought into that?
Well, I think they have.
I think that Roosevelt forgot to tell them how much that chicken was going to cost.
Well, we're finding out now, aren't we?
What started this thing, Gary?
What happened in Waco, Texas?
Let's go back a little bit further.
I remember the first press conference that I saw on television after they had lost four, I believe it was four, BATF agents to the gunfire from the compound.
They said that they were there because a foreign agent or a foreign person from some other country had informed the State Department that the members of Branch Davidian in Waco, Texas We're preparing to commit mass suicide, much as the Jonestown mass suicide that occurred in Guyana.
Is that what you believe started all this off?
Well, I have not heard that story.
The story that I've heard down here is that there was an investigation over an illegal weapon.
That investigation had gone on for eight months.
The sheriff of the county, Jack Carwell, had participated in the investigation.
He had also explained to the DATF that in 1986, when David Cross was charged with attempted murder,
that there were a number of weapons that were subsequently, after the best by all, returned to David's cause.
But the investigation had gone on eight months.
David left, I think, two months to spend his training there.
One was an irrelevant warrant and two were search warrants.
Those are still sealed, so we don't know what the purpose was.
the GATF early on when they were more cooperative with me, did say that it was an illegal weapon
arrest and that one of the warrants had been a crucial and closely illegal weapon.
We've heard a number of stories of that.
We have subsequently heard Alan Dixon say that mass suicide does disappear very quickly
when reality or common sense has it.
Of course, if they're going to commit mass suicide, they would have already done it.
I mean, what more opportune time when the whole world is looking at them?
That's just absolutely absurd.
If they haven't committed mass suicide by now, then they never intended to in the first place.
What we saw was on the network news, and it specifically stated that the State Department had received word from a foreign source that they were going to commit mass suicide.
Now, right off the bat, I knew that that was a lie, because if that was true, there's no federal law against committing suicide.
Federal troops have no authority, jurisdiction, or anything else there.
But yet they sent the FBI and the BATF, which is, for those of you out there who may not understand what that means, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, And they physically raided the place with SWAT team and anti-terrorist units without even trying to go through the motion of picking this guy up.
We know for a fact that he goes into Waco once a week and eats in the same restaurant at the same table every night, you know, at that time, every week, at the same time.
And if they really wanted him, all they had to do was wait for him to go in and pick him up by himself.
We also know he's always cooperated with local officials, and whenever they've asked him to come in and speak to them, he's never hesitated to do it.
So why do you think that if they were after him, why do you think they waited until these people were having their religious service and then raided them during the middle of that?
Well, we know from the New York Times article and the subsequent answers by the FBI and
ATF press conferences that there was an element of surprise involved, that they had moved
the raid up.
And they called it a raid from the beginning, not an arrest, but a raid.
And they moved it up from Sunday the 1st to Sunday the 28th to maintain the element of surprise.
And they probably picked Sunday, hoping that everybody would be in a prayer service or a Bible reading company,
so that they could come in with open door windows with their automatic German rifle and would
be able to secure the accomplishments.
There was virtually no resistance.
But Gary, in light of their statements, that they're only after Koresh, and first it was because they're all going to commit mass suicide, and then they were cited as being terrorists, on news conferences they called them terrorists, but we know they didn't go after them because they're terrorists, because they've never terrorized anybody.
Now they're talking about federal firearms violations and they were after Koresh to do this.
Why did they raid the compound when everybody was there?
Why didn't they wait until they could get Koresh alone and avoid this whole scenario?
Well, I think that there was a motivation behind that.
The only logical conclusion I can come to is that this was a training exercise that Well, I think you're right on there.
I think that's exactly why they did it.
I think they wanted resistance.
I think they wanted to create an incident.
I think you're right on there.
I think that's exactly why they did it.
I think they wanted resistance.
I think they wanted to create an incident.
I think they wanted to make Christians look bad.
I believe that they wanted to make anybody who owns a firearm look bad even though that
right is protected under the Constitution and religion is protected under the Article
1 of the Constitution and a lot of other things.
What have you found out since you've been there, Gary?
What's the truth about what's happening, according to what you know and what you've found out?
Well, the truth, at best, I can tell is not what the ACF and FBI tell us.
I do think the truth lies fundamentally in what you said.
Abraham Lincoln, I think, told us many years ago that the Constitution should be preached from every pulpit.
Now, if they don't want the Constitution in this country, obviously they've got to destroy the pulpits.
And it's easy to make a man like David Korish, who has a very strong following, look evil.
And so they felt that they could go in with allegations of child abuse.
The Jones County area, which was brought up a couple of weeks ago,
it dropped very rapidly and they realized how foolish it was.
It might have been the second time it had occurred.
And we now know all these things are false, but there are millions of Americans out there
who watch their television and read their newspaper and they believe anything the authorities tell them
because they don't believe that the authorities would ever lie to them
even though they find out every year that they do.
For instance, we know that Koresh is not a polygamist.
We know that he has one wife, is that correct?
My understanding is he has one wife.
And he has two children.
Also, according to what we've discovered, is that correct?
I'm not sure how many children he's got.
I do understand that one of his daughters, a two-year-old daughter, was killed in this one at all.
That's what we understand also.
She was in the nursery and the BATF people were firing blindly into the nursery after they threw a A gas grenade in there.
Well, they continue to assert that they are trained to pick their targets.
Oh, they always do.
Why would they want to kill a two-year-old girl?
That's correct.
Absolutely why.
The truth is that they probably weren't picking targets at all.
information is that they were firing blindly into the nursery and couldn't see because
of the cloud of gas from the gas grenades.
We do have some videos showing a curtain being pulled back and the stormtrooper could not
pull it down and obviously they did not stick their head in to observe what was inside.
But then after a short gap there was smoke coming out as if a flashbang was thrown in
that room and that seems rather indiscriminate to me and when you consider the potential
for damage from a flashbang or a percussion grenade there is video evidence of lack of
discrimination in their assault.
Have the federal agents taken any means to suppress the truth of what's going on?
Have they confiscated videotape?
Have they threatened the news reporters, anything like that?
Well, there are a number of abuses along that line.
We'll start at the beginning.
We do know that Channel 10 had two cameramen that covered the initial assaults, and those were the videos that we're seeing at first, but have not been seen after the first showing.
But my understanding in talking with a number of people is that those received by the FBI The ATF has admitted that they had at least one camera rolling during the entire event.
Obviously, again, a training exercise, and they wanted to show how to do it.
I'm sure they want you to see the training in the future.
But that, again, is a curative webinar.
Mr. Lewis Bean was down here two weeks ago, Saturday, I think it was.
The other legal precedent is in the press conference and he asked a question.
Apparently the question is something to the effect that can we take it by the constable's tactics that we're using this
way that this is the beginning of a free state in America.
Well he has asked for it in the middle of the press conference and has never returned.
You mean he was asked for it out and there was no answer given?
There was apparently a bubble stutter answer but no concrete answer.
And the rest of the press corps stood there and allowed this to happen without protest?
That's correct.
Well, I've come up with the terms since I came here.
I used to refer to them as an establishment, but now I call them bubble press because no matter how complex the news, they've got to encapsulate that in the two-minute bubble.
I think they're a pack of miserable, traitorous cowards who haven't got the backbone or the balls to stand up You know I think some of it is pressure.
I have a legitimate newspaper.
I had gone to the Trump conference four days in a row.
What did they go along with this?
I think some of it is pressure.
I have a legitimate newspaper.
I have gone to the press conference four days in a row.
And then on Thursday, the Thursday after the state meeting was in there,
I was stopped at the door and taken over to the side room.
And they asked me a number of questions about my newspaper and questioned the legitimacy of it.
Finally, they agreed that it wasn't legitimate.
I'm not sure what legitimate newspaper means, but they determined that it was legitimate and allowed me in.
It was on Thursday.
I went to the press conference on Friday.
Saturday night, Saturday I did not go, but Saturday evening there was a bit of an incident at the press site near the
complex.
As a result of that, I was under the credentials of AEN out of Indiana.
They had an agreement with me for me to go out with them to cover a portion of the story and look at the press site
near the complex.
It was the only time I've been there.
And I conveniently was told that they were falsified credentials, and I was able to get it by the FBI and
finally released.
On Sunday, I was not allowed in the press conference.
From Sunday to Friday, I kept trying to get an explanation as to why I was not allowed,
because my credentials have been proven legitimate.
Only one reporter stood up for my position and said, Dick, read this with the Gallup Observer.
I will say that of all the press people he is the only one that doesn't feel that there are different levels of press and that virtually every member of the press should be allowed Well, absolutely.
I know that Article 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America makes no distinction between the different levels of the press.
It says that the freedom of the press shall not be infringed.
Well, I think one definition of trust credentials now, and it's probably correct, is trust credentials allow you the rights that every citizen should have in this country.
That's true.
That's very true.
Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary.
Do you think that the people at Branch Davidian knew that this raid was going to occur?
They may have.
They had been investigated by a TV program that works for them.
I think they're going up in Montana right now.
They had been investigated by the Waco Tribune.
The Waco Tribune wrote their story on Saturday and now the FBI, ATF are trying to accuse the Waco Tribune
of leaking information to the grass divisions.
That's kind of interesting.
I always like it when I can tell you a secret, but I expected you to have the privilege to speak it more
than I privileged it myself when I told you.
Not only that, it sounds like the Fed is admitting that they were briefing the local news media that something was
going to happen.
Well, it appears to be, and we understand too, that in Oklahoma right now they have finished the set for a FBI
story, both him and Wade and Waco.
Apparently that was under construction before the raid began.
You mean they were filming a movie about this particular raid and it was finished before the raid even began?
Oh, I see.
They were building a set to film a movie about this raid before the raid ever began.
Oh I see, they were building a set to film a movie about this raid before the raid ever
began.
That's my understanding, and I think that's been confirmed in the press conferences.
This is incredible.
As far as the secret, the FBI and ATF, or the ATF only at that time, expected other
people to respect the secrecy of a big bit that they could not respect it themselves.
It's a common knowledge.
Also, Bellmead, the city, well the vast community complex is in Ariella, which is a fork in
the road, but Bellmead is a little town just down the road from them.
The ATF forces suited up right off the main road, Highway 84, in the city parking area
for a civic scatter that morning.
So here's between 80 and 120 people putting on their black battle gear.
In a small town where anything unusual travels by word of mouth like lightning.
It did.
I had already been told so.
Sure.
So, by going public two hours before the raid, when they were shooting up, Well, I don't think that they wanted any secret, Gary.
I think that they wanted to ensure there would be armed opposition.
I think that they wanted a show here to try to convince the American people, number one, that Christians are fanatical lunatics, and number two, anybody that owns a weapon is dangerous to everybody else.
When we were kids, we used to play with firecrackers.
Every once in a while, we got one with a fast fuse, and it ended up with sore fingers.
I think that's what kind of happened here.
They certainly are going to have some sore fingers.
They expected that there would be casualties on the other side, perhaps their own side.
That's evidenced by the fact that they did not advise their own people what to expect, that there might be automatic weapons.
Whether there are or not, we still have to determine.
That's true.
we do have we don't hear any automatic fire at all so it's hard to tell if it was full
automatic fire.
Well I can tell you from my experience in Vietnam is that unless a person has been practicing
and using an automatic weapon for some time that they usually never can hit anything and
most people who fire automatic weapons who haven't been using them and aren't expert
with them that haven't been firing them for quite some time.
I usually expend all the ammunition shooting at the moon.
So the fact that four BATF officers and several others were wounded, four were killed and several others were wounded, would tell me that these people in there either have had a hell of a lot of practice with automatic weapons, and I don't believe that they have any, number one.
Or number two, were just good shots who were protecting something that they held dear, so they made sure that their bullets counted.
Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary.
How did all this come about?
What happened?
Oops, I'm sorry, we can't do that.
Gary, hold on.
We've got to take a short break.
Folks, don't go away.
We'll be right back after this pause.
How did all this come about?
What happened?
Well, you've already told us that they came into town and were suiting up hours before the thing happened.
And that obviously the press knew what was going to happen because they accused the press of warning these people.
So this whole thing was planned well in advance.
Press were obviously briefed.
They came in early that day and suited up in plain view of all the townspeople, which is just asking for these people to be warned.
And then what did they do?
Well, the Channel 10 news men were present at the site before the ATF rolled in.
So that proves a prior briefing without any shadow of a doubt.
Right, and the ATF people were friendly towards the draft people at that point in time.
The Waco Tribune was out there.
The Waco Tribune vehicle was run over by a Bradley later on, allegedly pushing it out of the road.
It was flattened like a pancake.
But originally, or early on before it unfolded the way it did, there was an agreeable nature to the ATF forces towards the press.
After the ATF got their backsides shot up as badly as they did, they were very antagonistic towards the press.
as was evidenced by the electric trucking vehicle being rolled over, and some of the attitudes,
and we've seen some of the videos of angry voices of course the press, they got caught,
things went wrong, they got caught, and they didn't like the idea of the state public,
all that stuff, it didn't go their way. Well they're obviously extremely embarrassed,
as they should be, so how did they get in there?
What started all this thing?
Well, here as I can tell, we were talking with the people here at the original video that was apparently just one time on Channel 10.
The ATF vehicles rolled up into the complex area.
The staff forces jumped out of the vehicles then and began running towards the building.
Some were hiding behind their vehicles.
Apparently they did have a plan.
And people have their objectives.
There were at least two cattle trucks with parts.
Out of those trucks jumped storm troopers with ladders, aluminum ladders.
They ran out and began climbing up to the rooftops to enter.
Serve the rent-makers through second-story windows.
My understanding at that point is that David Forge came outside.
There were three pieces of evidence that we have that support this.
Sure, and we were, the first week was saying we were outgunned.
They had guns that could shoot through doors.
We did not.
About a week later, Bob Rich from the FBI stated that they, of course, ran back inside, slammed the door, and then they began firing inside the complex.
Now, why would she say they have guns that can shoot through doors and we do not?
I don't quite understand that.
I'm not sure.
I understand there were M16s probably, possibly AK-47s inside.
There's no indication that there was any .50 caliber machine gun or some automatic fire from inside.
But the Stormtroopers were using MP5s, which is 9mm German made, and I guess there was an M16 or a 15 as well, and that they were using 9mm pistols.
Well, we know that all of those will shoot through a normal door.
I don't know why she did that but it does tell us something.
Of course she could not have been shot through the door if Sharon Lewis Crack.
Well if she's correct it sounds to me like she was trying to say something that the American
people would interpret as meaning that these people had some kind of terrible weapons when
all the indications and all of the testimony that I've heard and that my agents from the
Academy of the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence have heard is that they don't have these kinds
of weapons at all.
And if they do, they certainly haven't used them yet.
Well, David Kors, you know, was shot in the side in either the arm or the hand.
He received two shots.
Presumably, they must have happened before he went back inside because then he was inside the fortified building.
Uh, so I think we've got an omission on the part of Mr. Dixon that we failed to, uh, mention that the ATF had opened fire before David ran back inside.
There was a statement earlier on when David was allowed access to one of the local, uh, radio stations where he was obviously in pain from the injury, but he was saying, I ran outside to see what had happened.
Uh, they had their guns out.
I said, don't shoot, don't shoot.
They shot me and I ran back inside.
So we put all three of these together, and I think there can be little doubt that the ATF began firing.
Now, speaking with the people here who saw your early videos, they have estimated to me that between a couple dozen and a couple hundred shots were fired by the ATF before the people from inside began firing.
This conforms to all the information that we've received from everyone that we've talked to.
Before we continue, Gary, There's been all this stuff in the news and the newspapers that Koresh claims that he's Jesus Christ.
Does he really do that?
Well, I've never met anybody or heard him on any of the broadcasts that they've given to say that he was Jesus Christ.
We have not been able to find anyone who's ever heard him say that either.
In fact, we have found people who don't even like him or his church who say that he's never said that he's Jesus Christ, even though they don't like him and don't like his church.
Go ahead, continue.
I think you might say in a small extent that he represents Christ, but then I compare that to the Pope in the Catholic Church who talks with God, and I don't see that there's much difference except the size of the tribulation.
Well, there's quite a bit of difference.
The Pope claims that he is God and that he's Christ's vicar on earth.
But be that as it may, I don't think we should get VHF to go to the Vatican now.
Absolutely.
So what happened next?
Well, the next significant event was the BATF obviously got their backside kicked.
Something totally unexpected.
They had four dead.
How many wounded?
16 wounded.
Four dead and 16 wounded.
16 wounded.
Now what they did then is made a plea to David Forrest to allow them to move their dead and wounded from the battlefield.
Yes.
And David Forrest graciously, like a good Christian, allowed that to happen.
The ATF, though, denied medical supplies until the following Saturday, almost a week later, and still would not provide the sort of supplies that David asked for.
David and his people do not believe in AMA medicine.
They believe in health remedies.
and surprisingly even the National Red Cross in Washington refused to cooperate to any degree
in attempting to get humane supplies into David Korish that would be help from foods and remedies.
So the FBI or the ATF expects the humanitarian considerations out of the people inside
but at the same time they deny the same conditions to people inside.
And then they called them terrorists.
Well, they must be terrorists. How else could you justify turning off power?
No, they called the people inside terrorists.
Well, they must be terrorists, because how else could the ATF justify cutting off their power?
I mean, if we believe the ATF, these people are worse than the enemies we've fought in any war, because we've always allowed them medical supplies into the Red Cross.
So, I think we have to assume that the ATF is correct.
These people are terrorists, and that it could be no other answer.
Well, there has to be another answer, and we've got to be careful with what we say over the air if we don't really mean it, simply because there's a lot of people out there, whom I really call sheeple, who might hear this broadcast and believe that you mean verbatim what you're saying right now.
Well, let's clarify that.
We've got some very humane people inside.
We've got the ATF alleged that they are holding their people hostage.
It's very freely, they've allowed the release of a number of their people to come out.
That's correct.
Well, those who chose to come out, the hostages are the people inside of the complex, the
hostage holders or the FBI denying them free access to...
That's correct.
The people inside are armed and they're not being held hostage by Koresh or anybody else.
They are in there because they want to be in there and they're standing for principle
and for ideals and for creator-endowed rights.
They're standing for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and they are indeed being held hostage, but by the federal government and its agencies acting illegally, in my estimation.
And are there military troops there, Gary?
Uh, we, I've seen videos and I'm trying to get copies of people in U.S.
Army uniforms.
Now, we've got some funny circumstances, uh, just recently in a press conference.
The ATF, or the FBI, in an attempt to justify the use of three National Guard helicopters in the initial assault, said that the National Guard was using infrared to determine if there was an amphetamine lab inside of this church.
Uh, they did detect a hot spot.
I would assume that hot spot was probably the kitchen because on a Sunday morning it would take quite a bit of heat to cook food for 120 people.
But that was justified by the National Guard helicopters, so we know they weren't involved.
The Bradleys apparently were National Guard and were on loan.
Some of the operators were National Guard or ATF.
ATF, one of the press conferences, indicated the reason the Waco, Turkey vehicle was run
over is that their troopers are not trained in driving badly.
And from the tanker from Fort Hood, my understanding was that the National Guard would not supply
drivers for the tanks or the tanks themselves and that active duty United States Army personnel
were brought into this engagement.
Now, it's my understanding now we've got the first military vehicles being used against,
directly against, American citizens for the war.
In what is supposed to be a law enforcement action, and the Constitution and the laws of this land expressly forbid the military in any way, shape, or form from being used for enforcement of the law.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Now, you mentioned something, law enforcement.
I don't think so.
law enforcement they were serving and very simple arrest warrant.
When I was a kid I remember the no knock warrant.
Anytime a no knock warrant was issued the press made a big deal of it.
It was a rare exception that a no knock could be issued.
It's become a way of life.
I mean if there's no knock they were entering windows and everything else.
You know the world has changed a lot in my lifetime.
And to call this law enforcement when they use 120 people to serve an arrest warrant to search for them.
I think we've gone beyond a police state.
We've actually stepped over into a military state.
Well that's what I believe and I think it happened a long time ago.
And they're just now letting us know and exercising the powers that they've had by treaty under the United Nations
Charter.
And through the UN Participation Act, the Disarmament Agency, the Disarmament Act, and many, many others that people don't know much about, but are just beginning to become aware of.
What have you found out about the way that this was carried out?
For instance, you were telling me earlier off the air about the ATF agents pulling aside Throwing something inside.
Can you go over that with us?
Well, we have a video that was broadcast a few times on the first day and was subsequently edited down considerably.
In that video, there are four ATF soldiers climbing a ladder to a window.
Now, that window was identified in maps produced by, or drawn, produced by ATF to be to their ammunition storage area on the second floor.
It would be foolish destroying this second floor.
It would seem more practical to store it in an underground bunker.
One of the people who got out later identified that room as David Forrest's bedroom.
At any rate, these four troopers climb the ladder one way, prone facing up the gabled roof, to protect against anybody coming over the roof.
The other three then are right out the window.
One of them begins breaking out the window.
Then there's a gap in the video, and then you see a smoke billowing out of the window, as if the flashbang was thrown into the percussion domain, and then three BATF agents climb in the window.
Then there's a gap in the film, and then you see at the end, now this next scene is one that you see over and over again.
You see a BATF soldier right next to the window with a gun in hand facing the window.
And then four or five rounds come through the wall behind him, large holes in the wall.
Then one strikes apparently right by his head with a helmet, knocking him down.
Where he lied still on the roof for a few seconds.
And then he got up slowly and started moving towards the ladder.
I'm not sure if the other three storm troopers were still inside that room when that occurred.
If they were, they must have been killed inside, or they were doing the firing that hit the one trooper.
Our information is that two of the dead VATF personnel Well, I've been trying to get as much proof of anything as possible and so I end up relying a lot on the ATF conferences.
of any of that?
Well, I've been trying to get as much proof of anything as possible and so I end up relying
a lot on the ATF conferences.
We have been told that two were killed on a roof and two were killed on the ground.
In the third conference the other day, there was an officer, Williams, or Agent Williams,
who apparently was shot, went down, got back up again, firing again, shot again, and went
down.
However, Williams' autopsy apparently reports that he was only shot once.
And that shot entered the side of his neck and went out the other side.
Now, the FBI then, when they described what happened to Officer Williams, is he was behind cover.
The difference between cover and concealment is simple.
Concealment hides you visually but doesn't protect you from bullets.
Cover protects you from bullets.
If he was under cover and was facing and firing towards the breast of Idiot,
it is hard to understand how a bullet went from side to side through his neck
and would not have been exposed to topical fire and in spirit in the day.
Perhaps friendly fire would have killed Agent Williams.
That is the only one that I can say appears to, from the evidence that I've been able to gather,
appears to have been a friendly fire casualty.
Tell me about children, Gary.
Initially, I heard that possibly a number of children were killed in the initial raid.
The only one we know for sure was David Bush's two-year-old daughter.
The videos that have come up in the past few days on the FBI, by their own accounts, I don't know if the other five exist or not.
Some of the rumors here, which is one of the areas of attack, is the children's living quarters and nursery area.
children is supposed to be inside and one of those 17 children is supposed to be dead.
So I don't know if the other five exist or not.
Some of the rumors here is that one of the areas of attack is the children's living quarters
and nursery area.
Some of the people believe here that perhaps more children were killed by the discriminant
virus, the ATF-12.
Well, a lot of progress has been made.
Apparently they did pick at least one child, perhaps more.
Okay.
Well, Gary, what do you think is going to transpire in the next few days?
A lot of progress has been made.
When I first got here, I spoke with Commander Maurice Cook of the Texas Rangers
and asked him, well, with Eric Leiter and Nancy Lovesa, we did file a criminal complaint against the Texas Rangers,
the Sheriff, and serve them for failure to perform their duties.
Shortly after that, I spoke to Commander Cook, and he told me that politically he was not allowed to get involved in this.
I told him what my objectives were and that was first to save lives and second to make sure the justice was served.
Clinton said he thought this would allow he would take over the investigation and or jurisdiction.
This morning I spoke to Commander Cook, Tuesday morning.
I spoke to Commander Cook and he assured me, I had heard from the FBI that the investigation jurisdiction has been
turned over to them.
He did confirm that when the time comes for the investigation that the Texas Rangers will conduct the
investigation.
He assured me that if they beat the war on God right now, he would have Rangers on the scene within 10 minutes.
He assured me that they would make every effort to make sure that there is no destruction or tampering or creating
of evidence.
And I feel very comfortable that Commander Cook understands the implications.
At the book hand show I have sent a copy of the Mountain of Life to him so he understands what happened in Idaho.
And I feel very comfortable at least now that justice will be served when this is over.
We do have to assume that there will be a subpoena power that will get the videos and that perhaps we will find out
that the crime was not committed by people inside but in fact committed by the ATF forces in an office of contracts.
Well all the information that we have gleaned is that that is exactly what happened.
The only crimes that were committed have been committed by the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Now, the information that we have gleaned so far that we've already done in one show has come partly from Nancy La Rosa and her friend whom you mentioned.
Eric Leiter and several of the residents who live in the vicinity.
How long are you going to stay on the scene, Gary?
As long as the FBI is here, I'll be here.
Well, that may be for some time now.
Do you see any signs of the people inside the compound weakening?
No.
In fact, we made something rather interesting.
I'm a Vietnam veteran as well.
I think we both understand what might be called a thief mentality.
Yes.
When you're under fire and there's no relief in sight and you're shrouded, outnumbered, armed, that there's a futility and a frustration.
on Monday the 8th, we were in Groysk through the FBI claiming that he could blow Bradley 50 feet in the air.
I think that it might have been employed by the FBI.
The FBI didn't provide any explosives in there, but at any rate,
there appeared to be a misuse of talent in this registration.
On Tuesday morning on the running of the show of HGM in Dallas,
a radio station that we know they listen to, Rod Engelman and I had worked out an attempt to get some communication
out of the complex.
The previous Friday the 5th, I had worked in determining if there was need for medical supplies.
I was introduced as being a Lancer there, and the editor of the newspaper that I required was there.
And then a series of questions were posed, and it was a single question.
Do you want somebody to come in?
Would you promise a guaranteed period of safety if he came in?
Do you want somebody that's not affiliated with law enforcement?
Somebody that's looking for a piece of information?
The antenna was located, which was the signal to the Board of Department of NASA to work out their business Friday.
The second question posed then was to grant Gary Hunt a power of attorney to represent him at the end of the conference.
And again, this time it was described as the biggest move to the antenna.
And we feel that the power of attorney wasn't made by him.
That has not been decided by anybody at this time.
Both the two hours or one of the discussions also included using a white sheet to indicate the weather to indicate things.
But within two hours the first sign came out in red, God help us and in the ground.
We saw optimism come out of the complex for the first time and virtually broke the siege mentality
and broke the FBI's efforts to imprison these people in submission.
And their optimism has stayed up since then.
To a degree, an attorney from Houston has gotten in the lab in two days to speak with David Gorge.
There is still no indication that they're ready to surrender.
We're hoping that things will change.
I've spoken with Melvin Belli's office, and he's got a representative coming out here,
and I think he'll be working with us.
Dick DeGreene is a Houston bar attorney, and Melvin Belli has shown his reputation for being a fighter.
We've discussed jurisdictions.
I can't discover tactics at this point.
Nor should you.
But I do think that there is a possibility of even more justice to prevail if we can get involved
and get in and help each other flourish, and that's what our interest will be.
Well, Gary, we thank you, and we wish you luck, and we'll be checking in with you from time to time, as well as with our other CAGI members who are down in Wake Hill, Texas, covering events as they happen.
Until next time, folks, good night, and God bless you all.
and to all of the hostages in the compound in this branched division, God bless you and keep you safe.
Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found.
Was blind, but now I see.
T'was grace that taught my heart to fear.
And grace my fears released And grace of me, and grace of you
The hour I first believed Through many dangers, toils and snares, We have already come.
So raise your glass, make the stars, and they will lead us home.
When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun,
we've always made to Jesus' praise, land where he first begun.
Oh Amazing grace,
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