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April 1, 1993 - Bill Cooper
58:20
Gary Hunt Interview
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Lights out on this hour.
This is our time to shine.
by the virtues of your body, soul, and mind.
I am the Lord. I am the Lord. I am the Lord. I am the Lord.
I am the Lord. I am the Lord.
GOT YOURE DUST OUT OF MY EYES!
YOU MOTHER FUCKERS OF GOD!
YOU KILLED MOUR solved the eighth dimension!
YOU WON'T MAKE IT!
YOU DON'T SAY YOU MADE IT!
ALL THE daredevils of god will battle against you until the day you win the battle!
THE HISTORY OF HISTORY!
THE PREAMBLE OF THE ENNI!
BLOOD TO THE CLOWNS!
please, don't win this blood!
this is a game!
ONLY SPAWNED Canadian!
GOD IS THE BEST!
Good evening across America and around the world.
I'm William Cooper, and yes, folks, my voice is once again failing.
I beg your patience and your forgiveness, but don't worry about me.
Remember Randy Weaver and pray for those under siege by federal forces in Waco, Texas.
They have committed no crime.
They have broken no law.
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The siege continues in Waco, Texas.
A small group of American citizens exercising their rights under Article One of the Constitution, which gives them freedom of religion, and their rights under the Second Article and Amendment to the Constitution, which gives them the right to keep and bear arms.
They have committed no crime.
They have broken no laws.
They are resisting alone overwhelming odds in an attempt to stop the encroaching totalitarian
socialist state that we will all know as the New World Order.
The person on the other end of the line here with me is Mr.
Gary Hunt, who's been in Waco, since shortly after the beginning of this month.
and has been following everything that's been happening there.
And we're going to get his version of what he's seen, what he's heard from the people
that he's talked to, the experiences that he's had with the law enforcement agencies
and those people known as Branch Davidian who are still held hostage by federal stormtroopers
in Waco, Texas.
Gary, welcome to the Hour of the Time.
Thank you, Bill.
What can you tell us about the situation as it stands right now?
Well, right now, the seas continue.
The optimism of the vast dividend is higher than it has been in the first ten days of the season, at least.
I think they're becoming aware that America is behind them, or at least the people of How are they finding this out, Gary?
Do they have a shortwave radio?
Do they have regular radios?
Are they able to hear what's going on outside their compound?
We know at least that they're picking up KTBS out of Dallas, an AM station, and that they are picking up the press conferences that are held every morning at 10.30.
Well, they do have a lot of support out here from patriots who really understand what this is all about, and that it really is the second battle in a war that's being fought against the American people.
Why did you go to Waco, Texas, Gary?
Well, Sunday, February 28th, a friend of mine from Kerrville, Texas, called me and asked me if I knew what was occurring in Waco.
At the time, about 1130 Florida time, I did not.
I called the local TV station, Channel 10, which had covered the original series, and in speaking with the reporter there, as he was reading off the monitor, he kept referring to the cult.
However, in a casual conversation, he mentioned that they were exact.
I realized then that something was beginning to infuse the press, and the story sounded quite a bit like what happened last August up in Idaho.
I continue to follow that through Thursday of that first week and by then I realized that something was occurring down here that was going to significantly affect American history or the course of our country for some time to come.
By Saturday then I was prepared to leave my business and come out here for the duration.
I did not expect at the time that it would be early this month, but I wanted to see first
hand what was happening and attempt to affect that if I could.
I've been out here since and I do plan on staying until this is over.
Well, I commend you for that, Gary, and I think there should be many more people down
there lending support to those people.
And I firmly believe that if two or three million Americans would show up and just very
quietly stand unarmed around that compound, that the siege would have to be lifted at
that point and there would have to be a congressional investigation called.
call.
However, I don't give too much hope that that's going to happen.
But we'll have to wait and see.
What happened when you got there?
What was the first thing that you did?
Well, one of the ideas that I had when I came here between Thursday and Saturday when I flew out, in fact I had drawn up instructions as to do exactly what you just mentioned.
I had been told by some people that post-Saturday when I left that there would be between 200 and 500 people here.
And then Sunday morning, a number, I've been told, had raised to 900 people.
That was about 80 people showed up in Waco.
And out of those 80, 20 were willing at one point to go out and physically unarm the 300 accountants
and camp out between the bath forces and the Camp Davidian church.
And by the time we were ready to go, that had tripled to perhaps three of us, so long.
They discussed the potential risk of going against the army out there.
Well, that's what happens when things get down to real nitty gritty, real protecting your country.
All of these sheeple out there are willing to send their sons and daughters off to die in the Sahara Desert or someplace in the Middle East so George Bush and all the other oil people can keep their oil and get rich.
But when it comes to standing up and protecting their own country, they just melt away.
Ends of the darkness.
Why does that happen?
If people would stop and think what is happening here in Waco, that the Branch Davidians are perhaps the only patriots in this country.
Right now, at their very last, they're defending every door in this country.
And very few of us are willing to offer them any assistance in that effort.
That's correct.
There's not a door in this country that's not susceptible to being broken down by the same stormtroopers Absolutely, and I believe that if the people of the United States lose this battle, because the people in this compound that are surrounded and being held under siege are fighting a battle for all of us, all of our rights and freedoms, all of our creator-endowed rights, all of the protections given to us by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
And if we lose this battle, if we lose this battle, I believe that that will signify the end of the United States of America.
As we have traditionally known it, and will give the total go-ahead for the New World Order to persecute, to hound, to confiscate, to murder whoever and whatever they will.
What do you feel about that, Gary?
I feel the same.
I've equated the events down here.
Randy Weaver was a small family.
He was lost in the press.
Wakelin, we're all aware of him.
This is a place of Lexington and Concord.
Absolutely.
Issues are similar.
We've got the opposing army.
We've got the attempt to secure the weapons that were stored in Concord back 220 years ago.
The British have come, and the defenders are standing there.
If we think back of those, I guess, about 100 Americans, the first Americans that stood against the British troops, not been willing to give their lives for a cause, then we
wouldn't have what was one of the greatest nations in the world.
And it could be again if we can develop the same spirit and willingness to defend our neighbors as we would like them
to defend us that made this great nation.
Well, President Roosevelt once said, the way to end this problem is to put a chicken in every
pot.
And what he meant by that is if we can just give everybody something to eat, they'll be happy and there won't be any
rebellions, there won't be any uprisings, there won't be any dissension,
and we can go ahead and institute whatever kind of government we want.
Do you think the American people have bought into that?
Well, I think they have.
I think Jim Roosevelt forgot to tell them how much that chicken was going to cost.
Well, we're finding out now, aren't we?
What started this thing, Gary?
What happened in Waco, Texas?
Let's go back a little bit further.
I remember the first press conference that I saw on television after they had lost four, I believe it was four, BATF agents to the gunfire from the compound.
They said that they were there because a foreign agent or a foreign person from some other Well I have not heard that story.
Department that the members of Branch Divinian in Waco, Texas were preparing to commit mass
suicide much as the Jonestown mass suicide that occurred in Guyana.
Is that what you believe started all this off?
Well, I have not heard that story.
The story that I've heard down here is that there was an investigation over illegal weapons.
That that investigation had gone on for eight months.
The Sheriff of the county, Jack Harwell, had participated in the investigation.
He had also explained to the BATF that since 1986, when Dave Kors was charged with attempted murder,
that there were a number of weapons that were subsequently, after the death trial, returned to Dave Kors.
The investigation had gone on eight months.
I think two months was spent in training down at Fort Hood for the actual assault itself.
There were three warrants for the assault.
One was an irrelevant warrant and two were search warrants.
Those are still in the field, so we don't know what the purpose was.
The ATF, early on when they were more cooperative with me, did say that it was an illegal weapon Well, of course, if they're going to commit mass suicide, they would have already done it.
We've heard a number of stories, Jim, that have folks come in and heard allegations of
mass suicide.
Those disappear very quickly when reality becomes clear.
Of course, if they're going to commit mass suicide, they would have already done it.
I mean, what more opportune time when the whole world is looking at them?
That's just absolutely absurd.
If they haven't committed mass suicide by now, then they never intended to in the first place.
What we saw was on the network news, and it specifically stated that the State Department had received word from a foreign source that they were going to commit mass suicide.
Right off the bat, I knew that that was a lie, because if that was true, there's no federal law against committing suicide.
Federal troops have no authority, jurisdiction, or anything else there.
But yet, they sent the FBI and the BATF, which is, for those of you out there who may not understand what that means, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and they physically raided the place with SWAT team and anti-terrorist units, without even trying to go through the motion of picking this guy up.
We know for a fact that he goes into Waco once a week and eats at the same restaurant, at the same table, every night, you know, at that time, every week, at the same time.
And if they really wanted him, all they had to do was wait for him to go in and pick him up by himself.
We also know he's always cooperated with local officials, and whenever they've asked him to come in and speak to them, he's never hesitated to do it.
So why do you think If they were after him, why do you think they waited until these people were having their religious service and then raided them during the middle of that?
Well, we know from the New York Times article on being searched for answers by the FBI and HBF press conferences that there was an element of surprise involved, that they had moved the raid up.
They called it a raid from the beginning, not an arrest, but a raid.
They moved it up Monday the 1st, Sunday the 28th, to maintain the office of finance.
They probably picked Sunday, hoping that everybody would be in a prayer service or a Bible reading or something
so that they could come in their second floor windows with their automatic German rifles
and would be able to secure these things out before there was a resistance.
But Gary, in light of their statements that they only have to caress and sort of...
And first it was because they were all going to commit mass suicide,
and then they were cited as being terrorists.
On news conferences they called them terrorists, but we know they didn't go after them because they're terrorists, because they've never terrorized anybody.
And now they're talking about federal firearms violations, and they were after Koresh to do this.
Why did they raid the compound when everybody was there?
Why didn't they wait until they could get Koresh alone and avoid this whole scenario?
Well, I think that there was a motivation behind that.
The only logical conclusion I can come to is that this was a training exercise in what they intend to be doing all over the country.
And the reason they had so many people was probably the benefit of training 100 to 120
troops in one on-the-job training experience.
How to break down doors and arrest large amounts of people with a massive force.
Well, I think you're right on there.
I think that's exactly why they did it.
I think they wanted resistance.
I think they wanted to create an incident.
I think they wanted to make Christians look bad.
I believe that they wanted to make anybody who owns a firearm look bad, even though that right is protected under the Constitution and religion is protected under the Article 1 of the Constitution.
Well, the truth is best I can tell is not what the ATS FBI tell us.
since you've been there Gary, what's the truth about what's happening according to what you
know and what you've found out?
Well the truth is best I can tell is not what the ATS and FBI tell us, they're constantly
changing the stories.
I do think the truth lies fundamentally in what you said.
Abraham Lincoln, I think, told us many years ago that the Constitution should be preached from every pulpit.
Now, if they don't want the Constitution in their country, obviously, they've got to destroy the pulpits.
And it's easy to make a man like David Kors, who has a very strong following, look evil.
And so they felt the basis go in with allegations of child abuse, the Jones County scenario
which was brought up a couple of weeks ago and dropped very rapidly and they realized
how foolish it was.
It might have been the second time it's been occurred.
And we now know all these things are false, but there are millions of Americans out there
who watch their television and read their newspaper and they believe anything the authorities
tell them because they don't believe that the authorities would ever lie to them, even
though they find out every year that they do.
For instance, we know that Koresh is not a polygamist.
We know that he has one wife.
Is that correct?
My understanding is that he has one wife.
And he has two children.
Also, according to what we've discovered, is that correct?
I'm not sure how many children he's got.
I do understand that one of his daughters, a three-year-old daughter, was killed in the initial attack.
That's what we understand also.
She was in the nursery and the BATF people were fired blindly into the nursery after they threw a That's correct.
Absolutely.
Why?
The truth is that they probably weren't picking targets at all.
Why would they want to kill a two year old girl?
That's correct.
Absolutely why.
The truth is that they probably weren't picking targets at all.
Our information is that they were firing blindly into the nursery and couldn't see anyway because
of the cloud of gas from the gas grenades.
We do have some videos showing a curtain being pulled back and the storm trooper could not
pull it down and obviously they did not stick their heads in to observe what was inside.
But then after a short gap there was smoke coming out as if a flashbang went off in that
room.
That seems rather indiscriminate to me and when you consider the potential for damage
from a flashbang or percussion grenade there is very little evidence of lack of discrimination
in their thoughts.
Have the federal agents taken any means to suppress the truth of what's going on?
Have they confiscated videotape?
Have they threatened the news reporters, anything like that?
Well, there are a number of abuses along that line.
We'll start at the beginning.
We do know that Channel 10 had two news that did cover, two cameras that did cover the initial assaults, and those were the videos that were seen at first, but did not get seen after the first showing.
But my understanding in talking with a number of people is that those were seized by the FBI as evidence.
Wait for the FBI, or the ATF, I'm sorry.
The ATF has admitted that they had at least one camera rolling during the entire event.
Obviously, again, a training exercise.
They wanted to show how to do it.
I'm sure they won't use it for training in the future.
But that, again, is accurate as evidence.
Mr. Lewis Bean was down here two weeks ago, Saturday, I think it was.
The other legal question, the press conference, he asked a question, asked a very interesting question,
something to the effect that, can we take it by the Gestapo tactics that we used in this raid,
that this is the beginning of a free state in America?
Well, he was escorted out of the press conference and never returned.
You mean he was escorted out, there was no answer given?
There was apparently a bubble stutter answer, but no concrete answer.
And the rest of the press corps just stood there and allowed this to happen without protest?
That's correct.
Well, I've come up with the terms since I've been here.
I used to refer to them as establishment press.
Now I call them bubble press because no matter how complex the news, they've got to encapsulate that in the two-minute bubble.
I think they're a pack of miserable, traitorous cowards who haven't got the backbone or the balls to stand up You know I think some of it is pressure.
I have a legitimate newspaper.
I have gone to the Pentagon since four days in a row.
don't even get paid that much. Why would they go along with this?
Well, I think some of it is pressure. I have a legitimate newspaper. I have gone to the
Pentagon since four days in a row. And then on Thursday, the Thursday after Louis B. King
was in there, I was stopped at the door and taken over to a side room. And they asked
me a number of questions about my newspaper and questioned the legitimacy of it. Finally,
I agreed that it was legitimate. I'm not sure what legitimate newspaper means, but they
determined that it was legitimate and allowed me in. It was on Thursday. I went to the press
conference on Friday. Saturday night, Saturday I did not go, but Saturday evening there was
a bit of an incident out at the press site near the complex.
As a result of that, I was under the credentials of AEN out of Indiana. They had an
agreement with me for me to go with them to cover a portion of the story and look at the
press site near the complex.
It was the only time I've been there. I'd accidentally been told that they were falsified
projections and I was interrogated by the FBI and finally released. On Sunday, I was not
allowed in the press conference. From Sunday to Friday, I kept trying to get an explanation
as to why I was not allowed because my credentials had been proven legitimate.
Only one reporter stood up for my position and said, read this with the Gallup Observer.
I will say that of all the press people, you're the only one that doesn't feel that there are different levels of press and that virtually every member of the press should be allowed into the press conferences.
Well, absolutely.
I know that Article 1 of the Constitution of the United States of America makes no distinction between the different levels of the press.
It says that the freedom of the press shall not be infringed.
Well, I think one definition of press credentials now, and it's probably correct, is press credentials allow you the right that every citizen should have in this country.
That's true.
That's very true.
Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary.
Do you think that the people at Branch of Divinia knew that this raid was going to occur?
They may have.
They have been investigated by a TV program that works for them.
But I think the same thing is going on up in Montana right now.
They had been investigated by the Waco Tribune.
The Waco Tribune broke their story on Saturday.
Now the FBI, ATF are trying to accuse the Waco Tribune of leaking information to the branch committees.
That's kind of interesting.
I always liked it when I could tell you a secret, but I expected you to have the privilege to speak it more
than I privileged myself when I told you.
Not only that, it sounds like the Fed is admitting that they were briefing the local news media that something was
going to happen.
Well, it appears to be, and we understand too, that in Oklahoma right now,
they have finished the prep for a FBI-insuring booking on the Dayton Waco.
Apparently that was under construction before the raid began.
You mean they were filming a movie about this particular raid and it was finished before the raid even began?
Oh, I see.
They were building a set to film a movie about this raid before the raid ever began.
Oh, I see. They were building a set to film a movie about this raid before the raid ever began.
That's my understanding. I think that's been confirmed in the Pentagon.
This is incredible.
As far as the secret, the FBI...
and A.T.F.
or the A.T.F.
only at that time expected other people to respect the Freak Pit, but they could not respect it themselves.
It was a common knowledge.
Now, also, Bellmead, the city, well, the branch of any complex is Gary Hallock, which is a fork in the road, but Bellmead is a little town just down the road from them that the A.T.F.
forces suited up and Right off the main road, Highway 84, in the city's parking area, Pacific Center, that morning.
So here's Canadian 120 people putting on their best black battle gear.
In a small town where anything unusual travels by word of mouth like lightning.
Or even by telephone.
Sure.
So, by going public two hours before the raid, when they were shooting up, Well, I don't think that they wanted any secret, Gary.
I think that they wanted to ensure there would be armed opposition.
I think that they wanted a show here to try to convince the American people, number one, that Christians are fanatical lunatics, and number two, anybody that owns a weapon is dangerous to everybody else.
Well, when we were kids, we used to play with firecrackers, and every once in a while we got one with a fast fuse and ended up with sore fingers, and I think that's what kind of happened here.
They certainly are going to have some sore fingers.
They expected that there would be casualties on the other side, perhaps their own side.
That's evidence by the fact that they did not advise their own people of what to expect, that there might be automatic weapons.
And whether there are or not, we still have to determine.
That's true.
We do have, we don't hear any automatic fire at all, so it's hard to tell if there was
full automatic fire.
Well, I can tell you from my experience in Vietnam is that unless a person has been practicing
and using an automatic weapon for some time, that they usually never can hit anything and
most people who fire automatic weapons who haven't been using them and aren't expert
and haven't been firing them for quite some time.
Uh, usually, uh, they spend all the ammunition shooting at the moon.
So the fact that four BATF, uh, officers and several others were wounded, four were killed and several others were wounded, would tell me that these people in there, uh, either have had a hell of a lot of practice with automatic weapons, and I don't believe that they have any, number one.
Or number two, were just good shots who were protecting something that they held dear, so they made sure that their bullets counted.
Let's go to the beginning of this, Gary.
How did all this come about?
What happened?
Oops, I'm sorry.
We can't do that.
Gary, hold on.
We've got to take a short break.
Folks, don't go away.
We'll be right back after this pause.
How did all this come about?
What happened?
Well, you've already told us that they came into town and were suiting up hours before the thing happened.
And that obviously the press knew what was going to happen because they accused the press of warning these people.
So this whole thing was planned well in advance.
Press were obviously briefed.
They came in early that day and suited up in plain view of all the townspeople, which is just asking for these people to be warned.
And then what did they do?
Well, the Channel 10 newsmen were present at the site before the ATF rolled in.
So that proves a prior briefing without any shadow of a doubt.
The ATF people were friendly towards the suppressed people at that point in time.
The Waco Tribune was out there.
The Waco Tribune vehicle was run over by a Bradley later on allegedly pushing it out of the road.
It was slapped like a pancake.
But originally, or early on before it unfolded the way it did, there was an agreeable nature to the ATF forces, the forces of the press.
After the ATF got their backside shot up as badly as they did, they were very antagonistic towards the press.
as was evidenced by the wreckage of the vehicle being rolled over and some of the attitudes
that are seen in some of the videos of the angry voices towards the press.
They got caught. Things went wrong. They got caught.
They didn't like the idea of just being public about stuff that didn't go their way.
Well, they're obviously extremely embarrassed, as they should be.
So how did they get in there?
What started all this thing off?
Well, as far as I can tell, we were talking with the people here in the original video that was apparently just one time on Channel 10.
The ATF vehicles rolled up into the complex area.
The BAT forces jumped out of the vehicles and began running towards the building.
Some were hiding behind their vehicles.
Apparently they did have a plan.
And people have objectives.
There were at least two cattle trucks with barbs.
Out of those trucks jumped storm troopers with ladders, aluminum ladders.
They ran out and began climbing up to the rooftops to answer server rec papers through second story windows.
My understanding at that point is that David Forrest came outside.
There are three pieces of evidence that we have to support this.
Sharon Wheeler the first week was saying we were outgunned.
They had guns that could shoot through doors. We did not.
About a week later Bob Rich from the FBI stated that David Korsh ran back inside,
slammed the door and then they began firing. They tried to confuse us.
Now why would you say they have guns that can shoot through doors and we do not?
The only thing is I don't quite understand that.
I'm not sure I understand the way I'm fixing this probably.
Possibly the AK-47's inside.
There's no indication that there was any .50 caliber machine gun holes and an automatic fire from inside.
But the soldiers were using MP-5s, which is 9mm German made, and I guess they would have M-16s or M-15s as well.
And they were using 9mm pistols.
Well, we know that all of those will shoot through a normal door.
A normal door, now.
Assuming this is still more like a barn that could have been an inch and a half or two inches wide of the door.
I don't know why she said that, but it does tell us something.
A David Kors could not have been shot through the door, given Sharon Wheeler's crack.
Well, if she's correct, sounds to me like she was trying to say something that the American people would interpret as meaning that these people had some kind of terrible weapons when With all the indications and all of the testimony that I've heard, and that my agents from CAGI, the Citizens Agency for Joint Intelligence, have heard, is that they don't have these kinds of weapons at all.
And if they do, they certainly haven't used them yet.
Basically, the story of the .50 caliber was very strong.
The cadet dropped after I turned out a press release regarding that.
I'll get into that in a minute, but I'd like to show how this evidence shows that the ATF wasn't fired first.
Well, we've got Sharon Wheeler saying that they could shoot through doors.
We've got Bob Rickson saying that David Korsh ran back inside.
The people inside then began firing.
Well, David Korsh, you know, was shot in the side and either the arm or the hand.
He received two shots.
Presumably, they must have happened before he went back inside because then he was inside the fortified building.
So I think we've got an omission on the part of Mr. Wilkins that he failed to mention that the ATF had opened fire before David ran back inside.
There was a statement earlier on when David was allowed access to one of the local radio stations where he was obviously in pain from the injury, but he was saying, I'd run outside to see what had happened.
They had their guns out.
I said, don't shoot, don't shoot.
They shot me and I ran back inside.
So we put all three of these together and I said, I think there can be little doubt that the ATF began firing.
You know, speaking with the people here who saw your early videos, they have estimated for me that between a couple dozen and a couple hundred shots were fired by the ATF before the people from inside began firing.
This conforms to all the information that we've received from everyone that we've talked to.
Before we continue, Gary, There's been all this stuff in the news and the newspapers that Koresh claims that he's Jesus Christ.
Does he really do that?
Well, I have never met anybody or heard him on any of the broadcasts that they've given to say that he was Jesus Christ.
We have not been able to find anyone who's ever heard him say that either.
In fact, we have found people who don't even like him or his church who say that he's never said that he's Jesus Christ, even though they don't like him and don't like his church.
Go ahead, continue.
I think you might say in a symbolic sense that he represents Christ, but then I compare that to the Pope in the Catholic Church who talks with God.
I don't see that there's much difference except the size of the accumulation.
Well, there's quite a bit of difference.
The Pope claims that he is God and that he's Christ's vicar on earth.
But be that as it may, I don't think we should get the ATF to go to the Vatican.
Absolutely.
So what happened next?
Well, the next significant event was the BATF obviously got their backside kicked.
Something totally unexpected.
They had 4 dead.
How many wounded?
16 wounded.
4 dead and 16 wounded.
16 wounded.
Now what they did then is made a plea to David Forrest to allow them to move their dead and wounded from the battlefield.
Yes.
And David Forrest graciously, like a good Christian, allowed that to happen.
The ATF denied medical supplies until the following Saturday, almost a week later, and still would not provide the sort of supplies that David asked for.
David and his people do not believe in AMA medicine.
They eat health foods and they believe in health remedies.
and the flying up tried to get even the Red Cross involved and surprisingly they,
even the National Red Cross in Washington, refused to cooperate to any degree
in attempting to get humane supplies into David Korish that would be help for food and remedies.
So the FBI or the ATF expects the humanitarian situation to be people inside,
but at the same time they deny the same permission to people inside.
And then they call them terrorists.
They must be terrorists. How else could you justify turning off power?
No, they called the people inside terrorists.
Well, they must be terrorists because how else could the ATF justify cutting off their power?
I mean, if we believe the ATF, these people are worse than most of the enemies we've fought in any war because we've always allowed their medical supplies into the Red Cross.
So I think we have to assume that the ATF is French.
These people are terrorists.
There could be no other answer.
Well, there has to be another answer, and we've got to be careful with what we say over the air if we don't really mean it, simply because there's a lot of people out there, whom I really call sheeple, who might hear this broadcast and believe that you mean verbatim what you're saying right now.
Let's clarify that.
We've got some very humane people inside.
We've got the ACF alleged that they are holding their people hostage, but very freely they've allowed the release of a number of their people to come out.
That's correct.
I believe that's the best number.
Well...
They have allowed their people to come out, those who chose to come out, the hostages
of the people inside of the complex, the hostage holders or the FBI denying them free access
to...
That's correct.
The people inside are armed and they're not being held hostage by Koresh or anybody else.
They are in there because they want to be in there and they're standing for principle
and for ideals and for creator endowed rights.
They're standing for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and they are indeed being held hostage, but by the federal government and its agencies acting illegally, in my estimation.
And are there military troops there, Gary?
Uh, we, I've seen videos and I'm trying to get copies of people in U.S.
Army uniforms.
Now, we've got some funny circumstances.
Uh, just recently in a press conference, the ATF, or the FBI, in an attempt to justify the use of three National Guard helicopters in the initial assault, said that the National Guard was using infrared to determine if there was an amphetamine lab in front of this church.
Uh, they did detect a hot spot.
I would assume that hot spot was probably the kitchen because on a Sunday morning it would take quite a bit of heat to cook food for 120 people.
But that was to justify the National Guard helicopters, so we know they were involved.
The Bradleys apparently were National Guards and were on loan.
They were just operating the National Guard or ATF.
ATF, one of the staff conferences.
Indicated the reason the Waco Philippine vehicle was run over is that their troopers are not trained in driving badly.
My understanding was that the National Guard would not supply drivers for the tank or the tanks themselves and that active duty United States Army personnel were brought into this engagement.
Now, to my understanding now, we've got the first Military vehicles being used against, directly against American citizens in the middle of a war.
In what is supposed to be a law enforcement action, and the Constitution and the laws of this land expressly forbid the military in any way, shape, or form from being used for enforcement of the law.
Is that correct?
That's correct.
Now, you mentioned something law enforcement.
Now they are law enforcement.
They are serving a very simple arrest warrant.
When I was a kid I remember the no knock warrant.
Anytime a no knock warrant was issued the press made a big deal of it.
It was a rare exception that a no knock could be issued.
It has become a way of life.
There is no knock.
They were entering windows and everything else.
The world has changed a lot in my lifetime.
To call this law enforcement when they use 120 people to serve an arrest warrant to search warrant,
I think we have gone beyond a police state.
We have actually stepped over into a military state.
Well, that is what I believe and I think it happened a long time ago.
They are just now letting us know and exercising the powers that they have had by treaty under the United Nations Charter.
And through the UN Participation Act, the Disarmament Agency, the Disarmament Act, and many, many others that people don't know much about, but are just beginning to become aware of.
What have you found out about the way that this was carried out?
For instance, you were telling me earlier off the air about the ATF agents pulling aside Throwing something inside.
Can you go over that with us?
Well, we have a video that was broadcast a few times on the first day and was subsequently edited down considerably.
In that video, there are four ATF soldiers climbing a ladder to a window.
Now that window was identified in maps drawn, produced by ACF, to be their ammunition storage area on the second
floor.
It was controlled to store ammunition on the second floor, which they pulled back to store it in the underground
bunker.
One of the people who got out later identified that room as David Forrest's bedroom.
At any rate, these four troopers climbed the ladder, one wise prone facing up the gable roof to protect against
anybody coming over the roof.
The other three then are right out the window. One of them begins breaking out the window.
Then there's a gap in the video, and then you see a smoke billowing out of the window,
as if the flashbang was thrown in there to percussion grenade.
And again, three BATF agents climb in the window.
Then there's a gap in the film, and then you see a B... Now this next scene is one that you see over and over again.
You see a B.A.T.F.
soldier right next to the window with a gun in hand facing the window and then four or five rounds come through the wall behind him.
Large holes explode in the wall.
Then one strikes currently right by his kevlar helmet knocking him down where he lied still on the roof for a few seconds.
And then he got up slowly and started moving towards the ladder.
I'm not sure if the other three storm troopers were killed inside that room when that occurred.
If they were, they must have been killed inside, or they were doing the firing that hit the one trooper.
Our information is that two of the dead VATF personnel No, I've been trying to get as much proof of anything as possible and so I end up relying a lot on the ATF conferences.
to get as much proof of anything as possible and so I end up relying a lot on the ATF conferences.
We have been told that two were killed on a roof and two were killed on the ground.
In the press conference the other day, there was an officer, Williams, or Agent Williams,
who apparently was shot, went down, got back up, began firing again, was shot again, and went down.
However, Williams' autopsy apparently reports that he was only shot once.
And that shot entered the side of his neck and went out the other side.
Now, the FBI then, when they described what happened to Officer Williams, is he was behind cover.
Now the difference between cover and concealment is simple.
Concealment hides you visually but doesn't protect you from bullets.
Cover is protection from bullets.
If he was undercover and was facing and firing towards the breast of Idiot,
it is hard to understand how a bullet went from side to side through his neck
and would not have been exposed to topical fire and its fear of him because
perhaps friendly fire would have killed Agent Williams.
That is the only one that I can say appears to, from the evidence that I've been able to gather,
appears to have been a friendly fire casualty.
How about children, Gary?
Initially, I heard that possibly a number of children were killed in the initial raid.
The only one we know for sure was D. David Gorsh's two-year-old daughter.
The videos that have come out in the past few days from the FBI, by their own account, I don't know if the other five exist or not.
Some of the rumors here which is one of the areas of attack is the children's living quarters and nursery area.
children are supposed to be inside.
One of those 15 children is supposed to be dead.
So I don't know if the other five exist or not.
Some of the rumors here, which is one of the areas of attack,
is the children's living quarters, the nursery area.
Some of the people believe here that perhaps more children were killed
by the discriminant virus, the ATF-12.
Well, a lot of progress has been made.
So they are, currently they did pick at least one child, perhaps more.
That's the target.
Okay.
Well, Gary, what do you think is going to transpire in the next few days?
Well, a lot of progress has been made.
When I first got here, I spoke with Commander Maurice Cook of the Texas Rangers
and asked him, well, with Eric Leiter and Nancy LaRosa, if they did file a criminal complaint against the Texas
Rangers and the Sheriff and serve them, for a failure to perform their duty.
Shortly after that I spoke to Commander Cook and he told me that politically he was not
allowed to get involved in this.
And I told him what my objectives were and that was first to save lives, second to make
sure that justice was served, and third that he would take over the investigation and or
jurisdiction.
This morning I spoke to Commander Winston, Tuesday morning.
I spoke to Commander Winston and he said that he was not allowed to get involved in this.
I spoke to Commander Cook and he assured me, I had heard from the FBI that the investigation
jurisdiction has been turned over again.
He did confirm that when the time comes for the investigation that the FBI will be able
The Texas Rangers will conduct the investigation.
He assured me that if people walked out right now, he would have Rangers online within 10 minutes.
He assured me that they would make every effort to make sure that there is no destruction or tampering or creating of evidence.
And I feel very comfortable that Commander Cook understands the implications and the potential.
a copy of the bottom line to him so he understands what happened in Idaho.
And I feel very comfortable, at least now that justice will be served when this is over,
we do have to assume that there will be a subpoena power that will get the videos and that perhaps we will
find out that the crime was not committed by the people inside, but in fact committed by the ATF forces
and an officer contact.
So all the information that we've gleaned is that that's exactly what happened.
The only crimes that were committed have been committed by the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.
Now, the information that we have gleaned so far that we've already done in one show has come partly from Nancy La Rosa and her friend whom you mentioned.
Eric Leiter and several of the residents who live in the vicinity.
How long are you going to stay on the scene, Gary?
As long as the FBI is here, I'll be here.
Well, that may be for some time now.
Do you see any signs of the people inside the compound weakening?
No, I don't think so.
Let me relate something rather interesting.
I'm a Vietnam veteran as well.
I mean, we both understand what might be called a deceased mentality.
Yes.
When you're under fire and there's no relief in sight, and you're shrouded in numbers of arms, that there's a futility and a frustration.
On Monday the 8th, we were seeing Royce, through the FBI, claiming that he could blow a gravity 50 feet in the air.
It might have been a ploy by the FBI to plant the idea that there might be explosives in there, but at any rate, there appears to be a disease mentality inside, the frustration.
On Tuesday morning on the Rod Engleman Show of HBS in Dallas, Maine, a radio station,
that we know they listened to Rod Engleman and I had worked out an attempt to get some
communication out of the complex.
The previous Friday, the 5th, I had worked in determining if there was need for medical supplies.
I was introduced as being a lab surveyor and the editor of the newspaper that I was there.
And then a series of questions were posed.
There was a single question, do you want somebody to come in?
Would you promise to guarantee carry-on safety if he came in?
Do you want somebody who's not as affiliated with law enforcement,
somebody who's looking for a peaceful solution?
The antenna was located, which was the signal to avoid the permanent answer that was worked out the previous Friday.
The second question posed then was to Grant Curry Hunt, power of attorney to represent you at the end of the conference.
And again, this time was described as vigorous movement of the antenna.
And we feel that the power of attorney was made by Dabnett, has not been decided by anybody at this time.
Less than two hours later, one of their dispatchers also included him in using a white sheet to indicate the weather to indicate things.
But within two hours, the first sign came out in red, God help us and in the press.
We saw optimism come out of the complex for the first time and virtually broke the siege mentality
and broke the FBI's efforts to imprison these people in the mission.
And their optimism has stayed up since then.
Dick DeGran, an attorney from Houston, has done in the last two days,
has been speaking with Dave McCoy. There still is no indication that they're ready to surrender.
We're hoping that things will change.
I've spoken with Melvin Belli's office, and he's got a representative coming out here,
and I think he'll be working with us.
Dick DeGran is just a bar attorney, and Melvin Belli has his reputation for being a fighter.
We've discussed jurisdiction. I can't discuss tactics at this point.
Nor should you.
But I do think that there is a possibility of even more justice to prevail if we can get involved
and get in a clean-cut approach, and that's what our ambition will be.
Well, Gary, we thank you, and we wish you luck, and we'll be checking in with you from time to time, as well as with our other TAGGY members who are down in Wakefield, Texas, covering events as they happen.
Until next time, folks, good night and God bless you all.
And to all of the hostages in the compound known as Branch Davidian, God bless you and
keep you safe.
God bless you and keep you safe.
God bless you and keep you safe.
And break my fears free.
I'll face the fear, I'll face the fear.
We are fools to be.
Through many dangers, toils and snares, we have already come.
For grace and honor makes us one, and grace will lead us home.
When we've been there ten thousand years, By time we have the power,
We don't hesitate to be afraid.
Bye.
And when we talk, we talk.
Amazing grace,
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