Riley Gaines on Swimming Against Dudes | The Babylon Bee Podcast
Swimmer Riley Gaines is finally on The Babylon Bee Podcast to talk about whether or not she could take on a shark, the trans attack on women's sports, and whether there's never ever been a show like Veggietales. Riley has a new book out now, Swimming Against The Current: https://a.co/d/0fGgJYrq Get $5,000 in free silver with a qualifying purchase at Allegiance Gold: http://ProtectWithBee.com Get $50 off a 4-week emergency food kit at My Patriot Supply: http://PrepareWithBee.com
We're the first ones to call out the trans shark community.
And now it's time for another interview on the Babylon Bee Podcast.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Babylon Bee Interview Show.
I'm Kyle.
I'm Travis.
This is where you say your name.
And we are here today with Ms. Gaines.
Hello, Ms. Gaines.
Hi, guys.
I am so glad to be on with you guys.
Please call me Riley.
Really, you guys are the best.
So this is very exciting for me.
So thank you.
Go on.
What do you like best about us?
Well, you have become the most factually accurate news source out of all of them, which is mildly impressive.
I don't know if there's a ton of competition out there anymore, but I am nonetheless a huge fan.
Well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
I'm not even a real journalist.
So that's, yeah.
I'm impressed.
I didn't even take an English class in college.
So all the feedback you give me is wrong.
Yeah.
Oh, sad.
So you have a new book that you're promoting called Swimming Against the Current, Fighting for Common Sense in a World That's Lost Its Mind.
What current are we talking about?
Like the Mississippi River?
That's what we're talking about.
Actually, I'm in Tennessee, so we've got Old Hickory Lake.
That's the current.
No, of course, the current we're referring to is this societal cultural shift that we have seen play out over the past, I mean, it's been going on now, unbeknownst to me, right?
Being a college student at the time, I saw a lot of this shift during COVID.
So what I would have imagined the past five-ish or so years, but really much, much longer than that.
This shift we are seeing in schools, in academia, in corporate America, within our government.
I mean, every realm you could possibly imagine, even seemingly our spiritual leaders, the spiritual realm, we've seen this shift.
It's a shift that is harmful.
It is detrimental.
It's severe.
And it affects everybody, right?
Not just children, not just women, but every single person.
And so that is the current that we are referring to.
And certainly the current that I'm fighting against.
And I know you guys as well.
So not the old Hickory Lake.
Not the old Hickory Lake, although pretty sick current there.
Really?
And I will say, I'm going to swim Alcatraz next month.
Really?
And I'm nervous.
They say that the current and the tide there is no joke.
Not to mention there's sharks and cold water, which is probably the worst out of all the different factors there.
Have you ever fought a shark?
Never, but I think I could win.
Even if it was a man shark?
Man shark.
Even if it's a man shark who identifies as a girl, even more so, I think I could win because they're total sissies.
So easy peasy.
Dang.
Really calling out those trans sharks.
Someone's got to.
Someone has to do it.
If we don't, who will?
We're the first ones to call out the trans shark community.
Yeah.
It's, yeah, so we'll see.
It's been a whirlwind these past two years or so now.
I gosh, I can't believe it's really been that long.
Screaming till I'm blue in the face that men and women are different.
So when did you start, like, I don't know what the right way to phrase this question is, but like, when did you first start noticing this insanity?
Like, were you racing against dudes for a while before kind of everything broke with all the Leah Thomas stuff and you kind of saw that creeping in?
Or how did you start seeing that current shift?
No, I naively, I think I just had never, I never even thought this would be a possibility.
I'd seen it happen the other way.
I've seen women begin to identify as men and go from top-level female swimmers to the bottom of the barrel when competing against the men.
I'm from Nashville, and so we had Sarah Fuller.
She was the Vanderbilt kicker.
I'd seen that.
But I just never even, it never even crossed my mind that it could happen the other way.
I thought there were rules and regulations in place that would prevent that.
And while I saw these women identifying as men, no, I didn't support it, but I didn't see it as an overt problem because again, they were giving up the opportunity for fairness and competition.
And I thought, what a stupid thing to do, but by all means.
But then it was November of 2021.
So my senior year in college, when we heard of Leah Thomas, who is, of course, Will Thomas, who swam three years on the men's team at UPenn before deciding to switch to the women's team.
And again, virtually the same story every time.
Less than average, less than mediocre.
That's actually probably generous.
To then becoming the most dominant woman in the country by body links.
And then I saw the harm.
I saw the severity.
I saw the trajectory of where we were going.
Again, I thought the NCAA would see it that way, how I saw it, how my parents saw it, how my coaches saw it, how my teammates saw it, how anyone with any amount of brain activity would probably comprehend this.
Again, nothing opinionated about it, nothing even, nothing hateful about it.
But lo and behold, they did not.
And so it was about three weeks before our national championships in March of 2022 that they announced that Thomas's participation in the women's category was a non-negotiable, meaning there was nothing that we could do.
No questions that we could ask or concerns that we could raise.
We were quite literally told we had to accept this with a smile.
And did you?
What do you think?
Honestly, though, admittedly, for a while, of course, I never agreed with this.
Like I said, we never supported it, but it almost felt like we were living in like a Babylon B headline, which is objectively meant to be funny.
It's meant to be almost this hyper exaggeration, this mockery.
So for a while, and I'm kind of ashamed to admit it, we did kind of live in this state of intriguement in the months leading up to that national championships.
You know, we had so many questions.
Is he as tall as Instagram makes him look?
Will he be in our locker room?
Will he sandbag his events?
You know, what is this going to look like?
We had so many questions.
And we asked it almost jokingly.
And then we got to the pool at that national championships that were held at Georgia Tech.
And all of our questions were answered, but suddenly we didn't have a smile on our face.
It was feelings of really, it was heartbreak.
It was feelings of utter violation, speaking specifically to the locker room.
It was feelings of betrayal, belittlement, and that mockery that we felt like we were living in.
It was at that point where we realized just how much this was mocking us as female athletes, as women.
And I felt, like I said, I felt ashamed forever feeling remotely curiosity or intrigued.
What we saw then was that this was deeply regressive and utterly misogynistic and weirdly enough, done under the guise of feminism and progress.
But again, this didn't feel like progress to any of us.
Yeah, that was something I appreciated about your book, how you break down first wave, second wave, third and fourth, and so on.
Yeah, you could kindly send us a copy of your book, sent me and Travis copies of your book, and Travis read it.
I didn't think either one of you knew how to read.
I'm impressed.
Wow.
Jeez.
I'm kidding.
This interview is over.
Okay.
This is my interview to be hired at the Babylon B. Hire me.
We're not that mean, though.
Our jokes are in good fun.
Yeah.
That's not what I hear from others.
Well, that's true.
It's true.
But yeah, so breaking it down with the different waves.
And I was like, oh, yeah, first wave.
I guess I'm a feminist.
First wave sounds really normal.
And then you get up to fourth or I guess fifth wave now, I think is what you were arguing that we're in.
Wasn't that a movie?
The fifth wave?
No, the fifth wave.
Well, I think there is a.
Oh, is there a fifth wave movie?
I think so, but it's about aliens.
Oh, okay.
So that's not the same, which also the fifth element.
You're talking about feminism.
Yes.
Okay.
Never mind.
Continue.
But nonetheless, we're in this weird phase wave now where we are being told that men make the best women.
Entirely contradictory and in 100% opposition of everything that first wave feminism fought for.
So it's just like internal battle for me.
I never considered myself a feminist because my understanding was that people who call themselves feminists, they believe that men and women are equal and the same.
And while I certainly believe that men and women were created equal, that does not mean we are the same.
We are different, but different in a way that doesn't make one sex inferior to the other.
No, that's not to say that women are less than.
No, but we're different in a way that's that's beautiful, really, that complements one each other, one another.
And I think we deserve to be celebrated and honored and recognized based on our uniqueness and our own physical ceilings, especially as it pertains to sports.
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There's a lot of discussion when this kind of stuff happens because you see it like every week on Twitter or X or whatever it's called, where you'll see some dude identify as a woman and totally crush all the women at sport.
A sport.
Ball.
Sports ball.
And, you know, a lot of the discussion is around like, why don't the other girls stand up?
You know, why don't they speak out?
Like, what are the pressures and the kinds of challenges that they face in speaking out against this kind of thing?
And what can they do to fight back?
I think a couple things as to why more people aren't standing up.
I think one, people think, again, like myself, I thought this, you know, this will never impact me.
I had a career planned.
I had a future planned.
You know, why would I veer off that path to fight this when I'm not going to be impacted by it?
And then, of course, that's not the way that it went.
I was directly impacted.
I did get to see the tears from the girls and feel the extreme discomfort in the locker room and hear the whispers, because that's what they were.
They were whispers of anger and frustration from those girls who, just like myself, had worked our entire lives to get to this meet.
Unfortunately, it took me being adversely and directly impacted in that way before I found it worthwhile and necessary and urgent to speak up.
But secondly, and I think more importantly, why people aren't speaking up is because they're terrified.
Speaking to my own experience, again, we were called murderers.
They told us we would have blood on our hands if we advocated for fair play and privacy in areas of undressing.
They told us, you know, Thomas could inflict harm on himself.
And you don't want to be responsible for that, do you?
No, so I suggest you be kind and I suggest you be inclusive.
That's what they told us.
We were told, we'll never get a job.
You know, your employer is going to look up your name and see that you're a transphobe and you don't want that.
You know, you're never going to get into grad school.
You're going to lose your friends.
You lose your scholarship.
They told me specifically, Riley, remember that scholarship you signed?
Well, you signed it and you gave away your rights to speak in your own personal capacity when you did.
Whose name is across your chest and across your cap?
Because it's not yours.
It's ours.
And understand, we have already taken your stance for you.
I had to go to training, sensitivity training, to learn about how just by being cisgender, I was oppressing Leah Thomas.
They sat me down and taught me how to use pronouns as a 21-year-old senior in college.
I had to go through this training.
If I didn't complete the training to their standard, which as you can imagine, I did not.
I had to re-go through the training until I did, until they were satisfied.
I could speak to these tactics and ways they got us to submit and muzzle ourselves for hours.
I really could.
But again, I think that's a large part in why people feel fearful in stating something as controversial as men and women are different.
Yeah, so in your book, there's an element of, I guess there's a theme really of tough love with your father teaching you mental fortitude and then Coach Lars calling you a loft for at least a brief period of time.
Do you think the trans community is really more deserving of tough love so that they can understand, hey, what you're going through is a problem and we can help you fix it.
We don't need to actually give in to all your demands because that wouldn't actually be love.
And did your father really yeet you into a freezing pool?
No, he absolutely did.
My dad, he's a NFL, he was an NFL football player, big guy.
Now he's kind of just fat, but he used to be muscular, I think, at one point.
It happens to the best of us.
So yes, he was, he was, it was a never a question that we played sports, me and all my siblings, and that we were taught mental fortitude.
But to answer your question of tough love, I think every single person, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity or race or any other identity factor, every single person should be handled with tough love.
And I think not even coming at this from a worldly perspective, but even understanding what tough love means from a biblical perspective, right?
It's that balance of grace and truth.
And it's what our creator, it's what Jesus Christ did so well.
You think of any account in the Bible, right?
Even the Super Bowl commercial that we saw.
That was in the Bible?
No, no, no, not this part.
He gets us.
I forgot that part of the Bible.
Sorry, continue.
You didn't listen in VBS.
No, they the Super Bowl commercial where they depicted Christians washing the feet of sinners, right?
Whether it was people outside of an abortion clinic or homeless person or whatever the scenario was.
And that's an accurate depiction of how the Bible describes Jesus.
He would wash the feet of tax collectors and sinners and prostitutes.
And I think of even an account in John where there's an adulterer and it was actually law that she was punished.
And Jesus says, okay, those without sin cast the first stone and no one can.
And that's his perfect display of grace.
But what the Super Bowl commercial left out, but what the Bible does not leave out, is landing with truth.
That all displayed leading with grace, which is the love portion of tough love, but it didn't show the toughness, which is the truth portion.
Every account in the Bible, afterwards, Jesus says, no, go and sin no more.
Leave your life of sin behind you.
And that's the part we're losing out on in our society now.
We hear of words, you know, empathy and compassion and inclusion and kindness, which are all great things in theory in their true definition.
But it's not compassionate to ask a young girl to undress in front of a man.
That's not what compassion is.
And it's not inclusion to ask us to smile and step aside and allow these men onto our podiums.
So all that to say, yes, I believe tough love is not only do I think it's necessary, I think it's a good thing.
Did you watch Veggie Tales growing up?
I love Veggie Tales.
Should we break out in the theme song?
Sure.
There's never been a show like Veggie Tales.
Dum, Bomb.
Bum.
We don't need to.
Oh.
We only have so much time.
Okay.
Yeah.
That would take a book.
Talking about Veggie Tales.
Yeah.
Well, I was just wondering, because you sounded like you were actually maybe like you were actually a Christian.
Because, you know, a lot of people say they are, but then they don't watch Veggie Tales.
Go, they're not a Christian.
Then they'll like, instead of John, they'll say like John's or something.
And you're like, come on, three John.
You know, it's like two Corinthians, two Corinthians, stuff like that.
No, I'm very fortunate to have a strong family foundation one, but you know, parents who I went to church every Monday or Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night.
Like Monday morning.
That's the new thing.
I don't know.
I don't even know what day it is.
Second day Adventist.
So definitely, but I will say, I've been awakened a lot of different ways these past two years, but I think the most drastic way is how I have been awakened spiritually and understanding that what we are seeing, it really is what Paul warns us about.
It's what he tells us: you know, we'll reach a point where darkest scenes is light, and bitterest scene is sweet, and evil is seen as moral.
And it's undeniable that that's not where we're at right now.
And that's not to say that, you know, I think people who are identified as trans are evil.
No, I don't think that.
But deceit is evil and manipulation is evil and lying and affirming delusions.
That's evil.
And who's the father of lies?
Who moves through deceit and in darkness?
Satan does.
But trans sharks, those are trans sharks.
Yes, definitively.
So when you took your stand, like, did you really expect to get famous or like that it would make a huge difference?
Or because I see this sometimes where it's like, I don't know, sometimes you feel like somebody's doing something just like, okay, this is just some kind of grift, you know, or that accusation will get thrown around a lot.
But other times you see things where it's like, I just have to speak out because this is true to who I am and this is true to my faith.
And you're just making this kind of small, ordinary act of faithfulness to your beliefs, and it ends up like changing the world.
Is that kind of how you felt?
This is never something that I wanted.
This is still not something I want.
Again, who in their right mind would voluntarily do, I think, what I've been doing these past two years.
That's not to say that there aren't joyful aspects of it.
You meet wonderful people, you get to go cool places, you get to have real impact, which there's nothing more satisfactory than that.
But it is, it's a toll.
It's a toll emotionally.
It's hard work.
And certainly a total 180 from what I thought I was going to be doing.
I was in dental school after college to be a dentist, an endodontist, actually, which is like root canals.
That's what I thought I was going to be doing.
But, you know, I have just now learned to trust in him and his plan and realize that he has a far greater understanding than anything I could, from a, you know, from a humanly worldly perspective ever imagine for myself.
So day by day, thing by thing.
Do you ever like drive by the Enodontist office and you're like, if only.
That could have been me.
If only.
I think I'm inflicting more pain in people now than I would be if I was doing root canals.
Yeah.
So obviously you have this book coming out and you have a podcast that you do.
What did you actually end up majoring in?
Human health sciences and health law.
Okay.
And that was so that you could do like endodontistry law?
Yeah, it was, I guess that was the plan.
Yeah, it was, like I said, I was in dental school.
I had been awarded a lot of scholarship money because I scored in the top percentile of the DAT, which is the dental admissions test, which is the miserable four-hour-ish long test to get into dental school.
Score in the top percentile, could have gone anywhere that I wanted.
I was the SEC Scholar Athlete of the Year, which garnered lots of finances for me.
I was the SEC Community Service Leader of the Year, which again awarded me a lot of money, but that money has gone out of the window now as it is not being used because clearly I am not working in people's mouths.
Although I do justify God's calling by saying I'm still working on getting to the root of the problem coming out of people's mouths.
Kind of still like the root of the problem.
I get it.
Yeah.
Get it?
I would say brush up on your morals to prevent truth decay.
I like that.
I'll start saying that.
I saw it on a church sign once.
Put on the true enamel of God.
That's pretty good, too.
It protects your teeth.
Which one was better?
Oh, I don't know.
I like the enamel one.
It's more creative.
Brush.
So it's a.
You leave me down.
So it's a common.
I think certainly in our circles, it's common to be like, hey, you know, men have an unfair advantage when they, you know, pretend to be women and then, you know, do races and stuff.
But obviously you have a different point of view when it comes to the locker room and sharing the locker room.
Can you paint a picture of what it's like in the locker room after a swim meet and trans athlete is there and they're just like, ah, I'm here.
And you're like, don't be here.
How bad could that possibly be?
Paint a picture, but don't be too, you know, it's a Christian show.
Yeah.
Christian show.
You can use MS Paint if you want.
I'll set the scene, right?
A swimming locker room is not a place of modesty.
These suits that you put on, your racing suits, it's skin tight.
It's paper thin.
It takes about 20 minutes to really poke and prod yourself into these suits, 20 minutes of which you're fully exposed.
And I can't even put into words, okay, that, you know, you have your back turned, you're putting on your suit, and all of a sudden you hear a man's voice in that locker room.
It's awkward.
It's embarrassing.
It's uncomfortable.
It was an inherent, innate, for every single girl in that changing space to cover themselves, whether it was with their hands or their towels or their clothes and to get out as quickly as they could.
We had some girls even find a janitor's closet to undress in next to a dirty mop.
And I will never forget, this is when, honestly, this was like a pretty big shift in understanding this for me because there was a girl from NC State is where she swam.
Her name is Kylie A. Lon.
She's a 31-time all-American.
She's like, like amazing.
And she came up to me and she was like, oh my gosh, Riley, I found a janitor's closet and I'm so grateful.
And my heart, like, it was like this realization of like, did she just say she was grateful to undress in a janitor's closet?
Like, that's where we're at.
And again, we're doing this as if it's progress.
Oh, my gosh.
But anyways, it was the feelings of, I mean, really, it was traumatizing and not even necessarily traumatizing because of what we were forced to see or how we were forcibly exploited.
It was traumatizing for me to know just how easy it was for those people who created these policies to totally dismiss our rights to privacy without even a second thought, without even bare minimum forewarning us.
Yeah, they're really putting that person's rights above your own is what it sounds like.
That's the premise of this whole gender ideology movement.
Yeah, Travis.
Oh, sorry.
So you testify.
I'm reinforcing your thought because you're entirely curious.
You're just agreeing with me.
I'm sorry.
You testified before Congress about proposed changes to Title IX.
What was that experience like?
I've testified before Congress and Senate many times now.
And my understanding was, I mean, this is like right, like the beating heart of the American Republic.
My understanding was these people are super smart.
I was very intimidated.
Oh my gosh.
Classic mistake.
Idiots.
They're idiots.
If you can get them off of their little sheet of paper that their staffers prepare and put in front of them, they have no idea what they're even talking about.
So that's how it is when I'm interviewing people.
Well, I wouldn't put you in that same boat.
But I'm not a Congressman.
So it's okay.
It's all right.
Sorry, continue.
No, no.
It's easy to push back now.
I was scared at first, like I said, in any realm to be seen as someone who's just trying to ruffle feathers or step on toes.
I didn't want to do that.
I wanted to be kind.
I wanted to be respectful.
But I now know it's not kind or respectful to allow this to continue, to participate in the farce, to affirm any of these delusions in any way.
That's not what kindness is.
And so even most recently, testifying before Congress, Representative Lee, Democrat from Pennsylvania, one of those pesky squad members, she starts to read her opening monologue.
And the first words that she says, she says, I can't believe that I'm forced to sit here and listen to this transphobic bigotry.
And my heart broke.
Again, doesn't try to dissuade from my stance with logic or facts or reasoning or common sense or science.
What happened to follow the science?
No, instead resorts to name-calling.
And so it's my turn to read my testimony.
And I conclude it.
And I didn't even mean to say this last piece, but I look at her and I said, Representative Lee, if my testimony makes me transphobic, then understand by your own logic, your opening monologue makes you a misogynist, which sent the hearing into a tailspin.
It was as if she had never actually heard the word misogynist, at least not accurately, because of course her staff is running over her counsel.
They're pulling up their phones.
I literally think they looked up the definition because about 60 seconds later, she raises her hand and she says, I want her words removed from the record on the grounds of engaging in personalities, which Marjorie Taylor Greene was in that hearing.
And so she buzzes in and she says, I would call a man posing as a woman someone who's engaging in personalities.
And then it's like the Jerry Springer show.
I'm like, oh gosh, what have I done?
People are like jumping over tables.
But let it be known, congressional record still stands and she is a misogynist.
Nice.
That's incredible.
So 200 years from now, when people are studying America, they'll be like, ah, this person was a misogynist.
So congratulations.
There'll be a section in the history.
Yes.
So I'm afraid to go off topic here, but I saw a dog walk around in the background.
You also just saw my brother walk by.
So so sorry.
We weren't talking about him.
I wasn't going to draw attention.
We were talking about the dog.
Yeah.
What is the name of the dog?
Rowdy and Rebel.
I just had a litter of puppies.
So if either of you need a cute Springer spaniel, I've got 10.
Wow.
Yes.
Okay.
Adding to the chaos.
Yeah.
Adding to the chaos of life.
I just brought home horse.
My husband is like, Riley, you're not here to take care of these things.
And I'm like, yeah, but you are.
So this is great.
It works out perfect.
I just get to love them and ride the horse and pet them when I'm home.
And you get to take care of them.
Lucky you.
So do we just come and get one?
Or how does that work?
I don't know.
Yeah, come on.
Where are you?
Tennessee.
Tennessee.
The best state in the nation.
Well, okay.
Well, cool.
Didn't you read the book?
That's mentioned in the book.
Yes.
Travis, didn't you read the book?
I don't remember everything.
This is your assessment.
Let the record show that you have to do it.
She went to University of Kentucky.
I got it.
You got to mix it.
You did.
I did.
Yes.
Okay.
All right.
Well.
I proved I at least read a chapter.
Yes.
Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Ms. Riley Gaines.
And everybody, please check out the podcast and the book.
We'll have links to all that stuff in the show notes.
And yeah, so thank you so much for coming.
This was awesome.
And thank you for all the work you're doing and inspiring young girls everywhere.
That's awesome.
Yeah, we really appreciate your time.
No, thank you guys.
Like I said, big fan.
Hopefully my jokes weren't too mean, but.
I'm just going to go cry in the janitor closet where we also change.
We should be grateful for that.
We all should get a bathroom.
We should get a bathroom in here.
Anyways, thank you guys.
Very appreciative.
Keep up the work you're doing because it is very important.
All right.
And any of our followers, listeners, if you guys want a puppy, leave a comment.