Christian Movies, Nicolas Cage, and Say Goodnight Kevin | The Kevin McCreary Interview
On The Babylon Bee Interview Show, Kyle and Ethan talk to Kevin McCreary from Say Goodnight Kevin. They talk about the art of making fun of Christian movies, Nicolas Cage in Left Behind, and the state of Christian art. Kevin created his YouTube channel back in 2014 for a way to help people think for themselves on movies. He has grown his audience by taking apart Christian movies and still remaining a Christian. One of his featured videos gives a breakdown on How to Make a Christian movie. Check out BetterHelp.com/BabylonBee for 10% off Kyle and Ethan find out about some of Kevin's more obscure reviews like Lego Passion of the Christ. Kevin goes into why Christian movies are not trying as hard since they know the audience goes for the message instead of looking for a good story. They talk about how Christian filmmakers are afraid of their own audience misinterpreting things and how this holds back from making a good story. In the Subscriber Portion, Kyle and Ethan find out about Kevin's views on salvation. They go in deep on some good Christian movies and some of his favorite filmmakers working today. Kevin talks about the many abortion and child sick movie genres that he has reviewed extensively. They end the interview with the ever great 10 questions.
I just have to say that I object strenuously to your use of the word hilarious.
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Christian movies, they're good.
Oh, aren't they?
Good to laugh at.
Sometimes.
Except for the comedies, which are not funny.
I mean, you know, it's hit and miss.
It's nice if you could just actually have somebody tell you ahead of time if it's worth watching, even if it's like so bad, it's good or whatever.
But people say that, and I don't, I haven't found somebody I trust.
I have.
Until now.
Yeah.
Because today.
Today we are interviewing Kevin Mick something.
Yeah.
He's got a last name.
McCreary.
And he, yeah, he's not here yet.
Not here yet.
He's say goodnight, Kevin.
And I will admit, like, usually when I do these preparations for these shows, I'll get on and I'll watch a few minutes of each video, you know, and just get a broad idea.
And then I'll write a bunch of notes and stuff.
I started watching his videos and I couldn't.
They're like a 20-minute video.
I was into it.
I was watching the whole thing.
I'm a fan.
I realized I got to the point where I had not written any notes.
But we had a great conversation because I dug the videos.
We grok.
You know the word grok?
Yeah, I do.
It's from Robert A. Heinlein novel.
Okay.
Stranger in a Strange Land.
Well, I'm glad that I got to let you say that.
Yeah.
And show off.
Speaking of that.
And it's probably wrong, but I think that's what it's from.
So, say goodnight, Kevin.
He's got a YouTube channel, and it's great.
And my battery's about to die.
So let's bring him on.
And we're going to talk about Christian movies and how crazy they are.
Let's do it.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome.
Hey.
Kevin's here.
Hi, Kevin.
Why don't we just do it?
Open the mic and you just talk about bad Christian movies for the next hour.
Go ahead.
There's nothing left to say.
There's nothing left to say, really.
I mean, I think Babylon Bee has had plenty of articles about Christian movies.
Back when we made fun of Christian movies.
Oh, yeah.
When you guys were funny, it was pretty good.
Yeah.
Back in the golden era.
It is true that, not that you guys aren't funny anymore.
That's a given.
That's a truism.
But that every time you guys would put out anything related to Christian movies, I would get a flood of, have you seen this message?
It's like, hey, have you seen that they made a joke?
So you're glad that we don't do that anymore?
Yeah, I've actually, I'm very relieved.
I mean, I would love it if you guys weren't shills for Trump, but other than that, you know.
Yeah, that's why we put Trump in like as Moses.
I see that.
You love him.
And as Jesus, because we unironically the exact same thing.
Yeah.
We have this Chesterton.
Yeah.
With rockets.
He just triggered a GK Chesterton animation.
Here we go.
GK Chesterton.
Good.
Love him.
Yeah.
It was, it was.
Who's the director of his name?
Peter Jackson.
No, no, no.
He did the Doctor Strange.
Oh, Scott Jerickson.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Have you guys had him on?
Yeah, we did.
Oh, good.
You know.
Then I don't have to say anything.
He didn't know anything about Chesterton.
Is that what you're talking about?
Oh, he knows Chesterton.
Oh, yeah, that's who I heard about him from.
I saw a talk and he's like, you know, if you want to talk about it.
He was part of my original Chesterton group.
Okay.
He would come now and then.
He was the far left member and him and Doug Tnaple getting these like loud, screaming, swearing matches.
It was awesome.
Just all just drinking your beer.
Yeah, or that should be a podcast.
It should be.
Spin-off podcast.
Oh, man.
Although, if Scott hears this, he will probably disavow all knowledge and involvement with that group and Doug Tape.
He's pretty publicly, like, people have asked him to disavow Doug, and he's like, and he's like, no, Doug's a friend.
I've been impressed by that.
I was just kidding.
I love you, Scott.
Oh, so he has principles.
Yeah, zero.
Yeah.
All he cares about is stupid things like friendship.
Friendship.
Yeah, of course.
Honor.
So you dedicated your life and career to Christian movies, watching Christian movies.
Why?
Is that fully your thing?
I mean, that's most of the videos I see.
It's most of it, but yeah.
I'll say you review other movies, too.
Video games now and then.
I was doing, I was talking during movies already.
So I might as well record it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there were a lot of production goes into your videos.
It takes too long.
It's got to take a long time.
Yeah.
I mean, a lot of people talk during movies, though.
Like, my wife, well.
He loves her.
I love her.
No, I'm.
But she couldn't make money off recording her comment.
She wouldn't make any money.
But if she finds out how to make money doing it, let me know.
Okay.
Oh, yeah.
Sorry.
I made an assumption.
I just assume he makes money.
Yeah.
So, and your videos are called Say Goodnight, Kevin.
Is that your full name?
That is my given name.
Say Goodnight, Kevin.
Yeah, no.
Say Goodnight, Kevin's the channel.
Okay.
And my name's Kevin.
What's that mean?
Why does it say goodnight?
It's a reference to Home Alone.
Okay.
Say Goodnight, Kevin.
Good night.
Good night, Kevin.
That's okay.
And my name's Kevin.
Okay.
So it all connects.
You don't get a lot of Kevins anymore.
Kevin's kind of an 80s name or 80 night early name.
Yeah, it's not cool.
I think people met too many Kevins.
It was cool.
It had like its heyday.
Yeah.
And then people met Kevin's.
They're like, oh, yeah.
I'm not naming my kid that.
Not now.
Well, you've discussed a lot of movies I want to get into.
Yeah, I'm so pumped here.
I don't even know where to start.
Kevin's not even in the top 50 baby names this year.
Wow.
Looking through.
Kevin Max.
What is Ethan in there?
Ethan got really popular.
It was when I was in the chat.
Number 14.
Number 14.
Number one is Noah.
Noah's my brother's name, which was also not popular when he was born.
So my parents were like innovators.
Innovators.
No, Kyle either.
Innovation.
Innovers.
In of Namers.
Innov Namers.
We did it.
So, okay, let's just jump into it.
Yeah.
I was on your channel and I didn't even know this movie existed.
There's a Lego Passion of the Christ.
There is.
Because I heard you guys vaguely talking about this when you were talking about it.
And it's sincere.
It's not like that.
No, you would think like, oh, you know, this is some sacrilegious song.
Parody or something.
Parody.
You know, because when you, to me, at least, my experience with Lego stuff has been like the Lego movie, like Lego Batman.
All the video games where it's like, oh, look, it's Lord of the Rings, but he accidentally dropped the ring.
The ring's like the size of a bottle cap.
Yeah, it's all slapstick.
This is not that.
So if you go into it expecting slapstick.
But when they're like punching Jesus in this video, it's unavoidably silly, right?
Because he's like, I think that's the thing.
And the guy falls over.
Yeah.
Jesus has his hands like that the whole time.
Yeah, and when they nail him to the cross, his hands are still like that, so the nail just goes through his whole claw.
Okay.
Yeah.
But they had to, like, they had to glue his arms on.
Like you can see.
I mean, it's to have straight arms.
It's not like a production studio that made this.
I'm sorry.
Okay, the guy's beefy.
I'm watching blood come out of a leg of Jesus.
Oh, my.
That is a thing that happened.
So, like, so it's a.
It actually looks great, as far as, like...
It's, like, very serious, dramatically filmed.
But it's, like, there's cool lighting and, like, everything else.
Focus and all that.
Yeah.
Like I was in talent there.
And the guy's done other stuff.
You know, he's a homeschool kid, as you would imagine.
And he's making Lego.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I was homeschooled.
That was my first time.
I'm allowed to say that.
I'm allowed to say that.
Yeah.
We're homeschooling now because of COVID.
My kids may make this movie.
Yeah.
Homeschooling's in because God's Not Dead 4 is going to be about homeschooling.
Oh, yeah.
It's coming out.
I guess we could talk about that later.
This episode is brought to you by God's Not Dead 4.
You guys are chilling for that now.
So, no.
Was this Lego movie stop motion or how did that work?
Well, that's what I was.
It's probably my biggest criticism of the film is that, because I don't care if some young kid made it who put his heart and soul into it, I'll still tear it apart.
And I feel like it's a little bit unfortunate and maybe even telling that the Christian version of like a brick film isn't even a real brick film because it's kind of more staged shots and then the movements will be more puppeted.
Where typically a brick film, the ones that I've seen are stop motion.
So it's like a three-dimensional flannel graph.
Yes.
It's exactly that.
Okay.
But with Legos.
Yeah.
I mean.
You don't move their arms and legs, they just kind of go like.
Yeah, exactly.
Gotcha.
That's disappointing.
Right.
I was a little disappointed because it takes more effort to do the stop motion, of course.
But that's kind of what I think of as brick films.
And there is kind of a large brick film community where people are making all kinds of Lego films.
And I was, I don't know, I'm disappointed that because I think there's within the realm of Lego Passion of the Christian.
Because there are like bloody, serious brick films, too.
Gotcha.
So if it was done well, I think at least in that.
It was like a Schindler's List Lego?
I don't know, maybe.
Probably.
Boy, that would be something.
But it's more action films.
Patrick frantically scribbling over there, making a note.
Pull it up on the screen.
Noting, flagging things that might need to get deleted.
Schindler's bricks.
Schindler's bricks.
Nice.
I just did a thing that I used to do in youth group where someone would make a joke and then I would repeat the joke but louder.
Yeah.
That got the laugh.
That's actually what my channel is.
Nice.
Yeah, yeah.
That's true.
So I just take Battle on B jokes and then repeat them on my channel.
Well, we're just repeating onion jokes anyway.
Does the movie spend like 90% of the movie just Jesus getting beat up like the original Passion?
Because it's like almost all the whole movie, right?
It's just like.
It's a lot of it.
And yeah, and it's disappointing because it doesn't, it's 30 minutes long.
It doesn't have kind of the interesting parts, which are the flashbacks of Passion of the Christ, where Jesus is interacting with his mom.
That's my favorite parts of Passion of the Christ.
Not the Jesus getting beat into ground meat.
I ate a giant messy chicken fajita sub sandwich that I snuck into the theater when I saw Passion of the Christ, and that felt like the most sacrilegious part.
Like it felt wrong.
Yeah, because you're sinning.
I was stealing, but also it was a mess.
Like it was getting all over me.
Wait, I don't think it's stealing.
Not stealing, but sneaking.
Yes, sneaking.
It's the cousin to stealing.
It's not in one of the commandments, sneaking.
It's bearing false witnesses.
Thou shalt not sneak.
It's sneaking.
Yeah, I don't think that's in there, is it?
Add that to the list of things to look up.
Okay, so there's another movie you mentioned called, I didn't know this existed either.
The Trump Prophecy.
Yes.
Was that?
Who did that one?
Why am I not?
Liberty University.
That's right.
It was a liberty thing.
Yeah.
The Trump Prophecies or something, right?
Yeah, so it's the story of a man who he has kind of PTSD.
And that's a good thing.
No, it's a true story.
Oh, yeah.
100%.
In a documentary?
Or like a biopic?
It's a biopic.
Wow.
And I think the story should have been about his PTSD and kind of working through that.
But instead, the story is about this, I come to believe to be either a hallucination or him lying and making it up.
I'm allegedly.
I don't want to go on record and say that he's lying.
Though he did either God stopped talking to him because he did predict that there was going to be not a blue wave, but a red tsunami and it didn't happen.
Red tsunami, that sounds.
So it's the story of a man who has this vision.
God shows up as an award.
I can't say what I was thinking.
Oh, why?
I just, you know, because Patrick would have to edit it.
I did think about cussing a lot on this just because I've heard episodes where you guys have, it's obvious someone can't hold back and then someone has to go in.
Like Doug Flinkle.
So much work.
It stressed me out just hearing that.
So I felt bad for you.
So let's talk Christian movies.
Are they getting better?
Are they getting worse?
That's such a funny statement, like an idea, because people say that all the time.
Well, actually, actually, Kevin, Christian movies are.
I do hear this awesome.
Yeah.
I'm like, actually, you know, this one wasn't too bad.
They're getting good at it.
And they're only 10 to 15 minutes behind, so they're just getting better according to that scale, right?
They're just as good as movies from 10 years ago.
Yeah.
But I don't know.
I don't know if that's true, because if you look at movies from the 90s, like your favorite movies from the 90s.
Jurassic Park came out in 92.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they're not.
They're not making movies as good as Dr. I think there are good Christian movies or better Christian movies, but then there are also worse Christian movies.
So I don't know that I don't.
That gets perpetuated.
Like the Irwin brothers have their new studio, which it's, or their, their production company, Kingdom Storytellers.
And they have a commercial for that, and it talks about how they've been given this opportunity through Lionsgate to make these movies.
And they kind of imply that them succeeding means we all succeed.
Like, so our movies doing well means that Christian movies as a whole do well.
And I kind of am on the other side of that.
I think their movies doing well means they're doing well.
But I don't think it has anything to do with anybody else doing well.
I don't think it affects anybody else.
Unless you think about like when the Passion of the Christ came out, then you had a lot of other like rip-offs of the Passion of the Christ coming out.
And so maybe those poorly made versions do better.
But I don't think it means that Christian movies are made better because one person made a better Christian movie.
I think it depends on if people buy better Christian movies and don't buy the worse ones.
And I don't know that that's really ever going to happen.
Yeah, that's true.
Christian Mingle, your thoughts?
Yeah, I mean, the website or the movie.
Yeah, there's a movie of that.
Yeah.
Re-reviewed it.
It's way better than it has any business.
Oh, really?
Okay.
Yeah.
Was it like a love story, like a rom-com?
Yeah, it's a kind of liar reveal film where you have a girl who's not a Christian.
Did you see Resurrection of Gavin Stone?
No.
What?
You guys didn't watch that?
I thought that was like you guys partnered with it.
It's like the same plot.
You know, the guy that's.
It's the same movie.
Yeah.
Or the same plot, but this one's about a girl.
But this came before.
It's While You Were Sleeping.
kind of the, you know, so she's not a Christian, but then she's like, I can't meet a nice guy.
She's like, well, maybe this Christian website, I'll meet a nice guy.
And then she meets a guy and has to pretend to be a Christian and go to like church and stuff until she's on the channel.
And all the wacky stuff that happens.
Hilarion Susan.
And it's a little weird because there's a level of like, it feels like there's the Christians are actually like really weird.
She's like, wait, you guys drink blood?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not that.
If you can believe it, there's no blood drinking in the movie, but it is a little bit.
Well, communion.
That's what I mean.
We had a kid we brought to church one time who was not grown up in the church, and he blurted that out in a community.
He's like, they drink blood?
She's like eight years old.
I didn't think about that.
That's why we're not Catholic.
I wasn't Catholic, so I didn't.
We drank Welch's grape juice as a Baptist.
We did not have.
Good, good.
Yeah.
Just ostracized a huge portion of all our Catholic fans.
Oh, all the not real Christians.
Yeah.
Yeah, I get it.
Just so you know, our Catholic producer is sitting over here shaking his head.
It's okay.
We have one.
I'm just letting them know we have a token Catholic.
Yeah, Christian Mingle is, it's not a good movie.
But it is weird, like watching so many Christian movies, like so many bad Christian movies, you get into this mindset.
Like, I think your standards lower to where when one comes out and it actually has a storyline or actually kind of feels like a mold.
There was a story.
There's a story or there was like a boom mic.
There was real conflict.
Then you're like, well, sure, if you were to compare this to a real movie, yeah, it's not good.
But hey.
That's always what I assume when people say like this new Christian movie that came out isn't that bad.
I always assume that's what they're saying for a Christian movie.
It's not a good review.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean you want to see it.
Oh, it's not that bad?
Yeah.
That's 399 Brent this baby.
Yeah.
I mean, why?
It's like Christian movies are kind of in the realm that maybe Christian music was 10 years ago, where they're kind of, they are trying a lot of different things, but they're in kind of the mimicking stage.
But they're kind of shifting.
And I think eventually we'll get to a place where all Christian movies are kind of this inbred version of themselves, where they aren't like real movies.
They're just their own thing, their own bad thing.
That's not a good thing.
That's not a good trajectory.
I mean, if it's going to go towards like your prophecy.
My prophecy.
So why?
You have a great video.
I think it's your future video about how to make a Christian movie or something like that.
Yeah.
You kind of, you really dissect in a very intelligent way.
I was drawn in.
Oh, thank you.
So what are some of your, and you said you need to update it.
So what are some of your oh, yeah.
Yeah, I think that we have had like better quality Christian movies, like the Irwin Brothers, make they look like real movies.
Yeah, cinematography is great.
They actually have a story arc.
You know, they're like a real movie.
I think that they're a little bit.
It's almost like the real thing.
Yeah.
I want to become a real movie someday.
It's like all, you know, when I was a kid, I listened to a lot of Christian bands.
And then growing up, there's this level of betrayal throughout life where I hear like real big fish and I'm like, oh, that's what Five Iron Friends.
That's who they're shooting for.
I get it now.
Or all the DC talk songs that are, turns out, are actual songs, like I Love Beach Music or a lot of them.
A lot of, like, these three things I pray is from God'spell.
And I'll just hear these songs.
That's like Rirvana.
Oh.
Yeah.
I mean, but just kind of mimicking.
And so that kind of that realization that, oh, I was, there are better versions of this.
Like, I think a lot of the Irwin Brothers movies are the two, the, the, I can only imagine and I still believe, you know, they, I'd rather, I think it's, I'd rather watch Walk the Line.
I think it's a better movie.
It's a, and it's kind of telling a very similar story.
It's a bummer that they kept his faith completely out of the movie.
And, you know, Johnny Cash is a guy with, you know, he has a faith story.
But a lot of that comes after the events in the film.
It's true.
So maybe.
So what are some of the ingredients you went into in that video?
What are some of the just to, I'm not trying to steal the contents completely of your video, but we will link to you.
Yeah, we'll link to the show notes.
Sure.
But I think there's like the idea that you're trying, there's goals.
That's probably one of the biggest issues with most Christian films is the initial goal isn't to make a great story.
That's an afterthought of conversion or whatever it is.
Or make a bunch of money.
What's interesting is because I started a podcast where I talked to a lot of the film directors.
And a lot of film directors that make these movies agree with me on so much of this stuff.
But then, you know, they'll share with me the logistics.
I mean, you mentioned a very similar thing with Veggie Tales.
Right.
There's a way going on behind the scenes and you realize.
Yeah, that you wouldn't know how much it takes to actually make this good.
There were so many obstacles in our way.
But people do make good movies.
They succeed at it.
So I don't know if that's necessarily a legitimate thing.
And you're not obligated to make a Christian movie.
Like you're not, it's not, you're not entitled to having a Christian movie.
And so I, but talking to people, it's more the market.
Like, I mean, I definitely think that the desire, the market isn't there to discern whether a movie is good or not.
They're there to discern whether or not they agree with it, if it's saying something that they can get behind, if it makes them feel good, which maybe isn't unlike everyone.
Right.
There's way more money in like, so if you're pitching, you know, God's Not Dead or whatever, and you're, you know, you want to make an actual story about atheist professor and a Christian college student, you just want to make it a serious drama.
There's doing it that way, or there's trying to make the marketed version to this, you know, the persecuted Christians of America.
And you're part of a movement if you get on board with this.
You know, the marketing is so much stronger to like just hit people over the head with it.
Yes.
It could either be an indie film that flies under the radar, or it could be a hit you over the head Christian film that's going to be like Team Christian, rah-rah-rah.
Let's go watch it.
Yeah.
And that's a hard battle to fight when you're trying to get a movie made.
Not saying that like the movie itself is this amazing piece of artwork, but those are the motivators that probably go into even making it.
Yeah.
I mean, you've got, I mean, any movie, any pitch, you have to sell it.
You have to sell it to the people who work it.
And you have to say, this is going to make money.
Right.
Because it's going to cost a lot of money to make it.
And I think God's Not Dead, even though it's kind of after the film has succeeded that it wasn't expected to succeed, that the criticism comes that, you know.
But it is kind of lightning in a bottle and it is a perfect storm of the movie, whether they knew they were doing this or not, is a commercial for itself.
And it's telling people, hey, this is something that's happening to you.
You need to text all your friends and tell them that God's not dead because they don't know about that.
That's the most insane meta element in a movie I've ever seen.
The end of the movie, text everybody you know on your phone.
They say this in the movie.
Yeah, yeah.
That God's not dead.
Tell them.
I never got the text.
I got the text from my friend.
You don't have the right friends.
You don't have the right friends.
Yeah.
Even word.
They don't care about your salvation.
They think God's dead.
Yeah.
I know.
But they prove that he's not in that movie.
That's another thing that they've done it four times.
They've proved it.
And the title itself, like you go, like, oh, I believe God's not dead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just by the title, you're like, you got to be on board.
We agree with you.
Yeah.
The film.
Your beliefs are correct.
The Bible is true.
But there's people out there who don't agree with you and they want to destroy you.
I kind of see God's Not Dead a bit like those Tarantino films that, like Django Unchained or Inglorious.
I won't say it so you guys don't spell the bad words.
Oh, hacksaw.
It'll bleep you.
Perfect.
Inglorious.
Packsaw.
There you go.
And where it's taking this kind of oppressed group and creating this revenge fantasy.
Like, what if, though, we could kill all the Nazis?
Or what if we could have this uprising where we kill all the slave owners?
Or kill Manson.
That was the whole thing.
Yeah, that was the same one.
Oh, yeah.
That's this whole thing.
Yeah.
And God's Not Dead does that, where what if we could rise up against our oppressors and have all the atheists die?
Get run over by a car.
Get run over by a car, get cancer.
That'd be great if all the atheists got cancer.
I love it.
Lego Passion of Christ could have done that.
they could oh but there's a movie called take out pontius pilot and all these pharisees and save jesus from getting crucified you know You know, there's a movie called Assassination 33 AD.
Oh, I heard about this.
Yeah, which they're re-releasing as Black Easter.
It's coming out again.
Same movie.
I guess it didn't do as well with the name that's so difficult to say.
But it's about going back in time.
They go back to how to kill Jesus or something, right?
Yeah, I guess.
Oh, to kill him?
I thought it was.
My memory.
To take him out.
It's the bad guys.
The Muslims.
Don't they know?
Invested time machine.
Oh, my God.
Oh, it's the Muslims.
Yeah, that's right.
It's like a fraud we're going to go kill them.
Agram.
The best, the best jihad.
A Muslim tries to wipe out all of Christianity.
So it goes back in time.
Yeah.
It should be called Time Terrorist.
That would be good.
That's a good name.
We're stealing that for our movie.
Time Terrorist, the movie.
As a Christian, you know God's always there for you, but sometimes things in this life can feel downright overwhelming, and you just need to talk to someone.
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So, another, I think you've love to get into talking about all the abortion movies I've reviewed.
Oh, that would be good.
Do you want to do that?
No, we can say that.
Let's do that for later then.
The spicy portion of the show.
Oh, by the way, I'm eating a Google cluster, which Kevin lovingly handed me.
Donating from Nashville, Tennessee.
I'm excited.
He's surprised it.
What do you think?
It's really good.
Okay.
It's not keto.
I think that was all about that.
One thing you've talked about with Christian media is that the Christian filmmakers, and well, really the producers tend to be really afraid of their audience.
Like they don't want to offend, and they're like, they know that there's these lines that they can't cross.
They know a large portion of their audience is insane.
Yeah, and I remember in the this is the Christian publishing industry, but when we wrote our book, How to Be a Perfect Christian, they came back with like two notes and they're like, you can't make a joke about Dungeons and Dragons, and you can't make a joke about alcohol.
Sure.
Like, that was like, what?
Like, that's a fairly tame joke that our audience can very clearly handle.
Yeah.
But they're so afraid of it.
It's bizarre.
Yeah.
I think, I mean, people talk about cancel culture, but like Christians have been doing that.
Oh, yeah.
Long before they perfected it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Remember the right thing?
In the 80s and 90s, that was our thing, and now the left's taking it and run with it.
Yeah.
And now we're the ones that are like free speech.
Well, I will say, you know, there's when people say cancel culture, there's a difference because they talk about firing random employees.
Sure.
You know, we're attention.
That'd be more just more group people.
Well, they didn't have Twitter.
It'd be interesting to see what they would have been like that.
Twitter existed back during the days of what?
Like, well, even like the release of Harry Potter.
I guess Twitter did exist.
Did Twitter exist during that?
Harry Potter?
Around the time?
Twitter was like 2007?
Okay.
So Harry Potter.
What's another one that was?
Well, Dungeons and Dragons.
Metal music, heavy metal.
That was like the big one.
Oh, like the satanic panic.
Yeah.
Yeah, because I don't remember anybody trying to get people fired.
It was just like, don't buy it.
Boycotted.
It's satanic.
Which is more respectable than firing people.
It is, in my opinion.
It is.
Christians are better.
Christians are better.
Our cancel culture is better.
You talked your way out of it.
Our worst.
Our worst are still better than you guys.
That's true.
You jerks.
Well, because they have Twitter.
No.
It's true.
It just bugs me because people will say cancel.
Not the way you use it, but people will say cancel culture and they'll go, oh, well, you canceled your Netflix subscription.
I thought you didn't like cancel culture.
That's the same thing about it.
That's the same thing about trying to get a Walmart employee fired.
You know, it's the exact same.
It's like, well, probably not.
Boycotting is interesting because I'm not a fan of boycotts.
Well, but I think that in principle, my thought is, yeah, the way ostracize if you don't like a thing.
Sure.
If you think a company is being immoral in their practices or whatever, don't buy their thing.
I think we should vote with our dollar.
But everyone that I see boycotting, I don't agree with typically.
Like not the thing that they're boycotting, but just their methodology.
So it's kind of in principle.
I'm like, yeah, boycotting, that is something that I agree with.
But it's usually, maybe it's just the loudest people who are talking about it where I'm like, I'm not part of that.
Oh, and it's always some overblown version of the truth.
Left behind.
Kirk Cameron version or Nicholas Cage?
Well, it depends.
But Kirk Cameron version.
I haven't heard anything good about the Nicholas Cage version.
It's not good.
It feels like it.
It should be a home run.
Right.
It has all the elements there, but it's just all the elements.
They're a left behind remake with Nicholas Cage.
That's the truth.
That's all the other stuff.
I'm not going to get that wrong.
I mean, any apocalypse movie with Nicholas Cage should have the best Nicholas Cage, the wackiest Nicholas Cage.
And it's just boring, low-energy Nicholas Cage.
That's sad.
Yeah.
That's really sad.
The world's ending and he's low energy.
It's like, oh, everybody, get to the back of the plane.
I'm going to take a nap.
That's really sad.
You think that's how he's going to be.
Yeah, you do wonder what's going through his head when he's on that set.
He's like, where have I?
Where's my favorite?
I did Face Off, man.
I did Natural Treasure.
Yeah, maybe.
But at that point, he's done so many, like, gotta pay my bills movies that it's just another one.
Like, it's just, all right, these two days that I'm here to film, I'm in this movie.
That's sad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think Kirk Cameron's left behind is like, if it was a made-for-TV kind of Tom Clancy-esque film, I think it's fine.
What about the sequels?
Did you watch all the sequels?
They're worse.
They're significantly worse.
Couldn't we?
What if, you know, how there's like these companies like VidAngel, maybe they edit out a cussing, or you can pick what you want, edited out.
What if they had a service where they edit in a conversion scene?
There you go.
And then you can watch any movie and it's a Christian movie.
As long as there's a scene where the guy falls on his knees, comes to Christ.
And then just right in the field.
End of Act Two, right before Act Three, Altar Call moment.
It would be good if it was always that scene from Fireproof where he's talking to his father-in-law and he's in a field.
And then he's like, How can I keep forgiving the same person over and over again?
And then the father-in-law just looks up at this cross that's in the field.
Bingo.
I wonder what they're trying to say.
It's because of Jesus, remember?
Film scholars have debated that scene and the meaning for you.
What is he saying here?
It's like debating the end of Inception.
I mean, it's about the same.
Because we have the technology now.
You could just project the actor's face onto the other actor.
Do a deep fake.
Deep faith.
Just an auto-generated deep fake in any movie.
Deep faith.
That could be the name of the company.
Deep faith.
And they just.
Did we just start a company?
Yeah.
Wait, this is ours.
We're doing this.
Deep faith.
And then you just do Jurassic Park.
Boom.
You got the doctor.
How can I keep forgiving these children the night?
And there's like a dinosaur bone cross.
Dinosaur bone cross.
Just a little T-Rex up on the cross.
Seven's got faith stuff built into it.
Yeah.
It's ready-made.
Yeah, it's ready to go.
It's tailor-made.
Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?
I ever saw that.
Oh, it would always be like the movie and Jesus.
Yeah.
That would be the name of all of them.
My idea is you take any movie you want to watch.
You can watch Game of Thrones.
Yeah, it would just be a good thing.
It would add in a conversion moment to the plot right in the end of Act 2.
But I think we need to edit a title card as well, and it would say like Inception and Jesus.
And Jesus.
It'd be cool if it cleverly changed the title to make a film.
Fast and Furious and Jesus.
Faith and the Furious.
We're not just a family.
We're a faith fan.
We're part of the body.
It's all about family.
It's all about the family of God.
It is interesting that you brought up Inception because that is something that I think about a lot when it comes to how would you make a Christian movie but make it well.
And something that you said Christians are afraid of audiences, but I think they are also afraid of audiences misunderstanding.
They don't want somebody to see a scene where a man and a woman are alone in a room together and think that, well, they're probably having an affair.
So we got to just make sure that we make it clear that that's not what's happening in this movie.
Or we don't want a moment to pass by where, I don't know, somebody, I don't know, makes a joke.
Yeah.
And then we don't clarify that that was just a joke.
We aren't okay with these jokes.
They have to look at the camera.
Yeah.
Or like even a lesson.
I think the Kendrick brothers do this a lot, where the movie will be about one thing.
But then there's this moment in there of like that relates to something like Dave Ramsey.
And they have to like make sure we mention the importance of being financially good, like good with your money.
Even though the movie's not about being good with your money, but we're going to make sure that that point also is in there, leaving nothing kind of to the imagination.
And I think about after inception, seeing that in theaters and all the people talking afterwards and out in the theater, like, what did the ending mean?
And isn't that something that the faith of Christianity is kind of tailor-made for inciting discussion like that?
Isn't that what you would want your Christian movie to do is have people out in the lobby afterwards saying, well, what was that?
What did that mean?
That's something I love about Scott Derrickson's Exorcism of Emily Rose.
It doesn't tell you what to believe at the end, but it definitely makes you want to talk about it.
You finish it and you want to talk about like, are demons real?
It's just an interesting thing to like.
It's worth talking about.
And there's a fear of showing the bad.
And to tell a story about a character turning good, you have to have them be bad.
We struggle this on Veggie Tales.
One of my favorite stories, I'm sure I've told this.
We had an episode called Bob and Larry Getting Angry.
It was about them getting angry at each other and they have to forgive each other.
But there's the verse about don't let the sun go down in your anger.
So they decide they're going to stay up all night so that they don't have to forgive each other.
And they're just mad at each other the whole time and they kind of keep one-upping each other.
So the note we got back from one of the execs was, can they just not be angry in it, though?
Sure.
It's really good, but can they not get angry?
Because they don't want to see our soft, cuddly Bob and Larry angry at each other.
But that's like kind of a microcosm of like how trying to make real stories about the real world, about real people, but then putting all these like Disney style bumpers all over everything, you know, like there's a tennis ball in the corner, make it all soft and cuddly.
You can't tell real stories if you want to create this fake world where everything's soft, nobody says bad words.
Right.
A lot of them.
What did you get?
It's like the breaking bad notes or something.
Can Walter White just not be so?
Can we teach bad?
Can we just not have the bad?
We liked him in the beginning.
Breaking great.
Can he go back to just being a teacher?
Breaking Baptist.
What Hoppit here?
Do you like with the Godfather?
Michael gets a little mean at the end, doesn't he?
I thought he didn't want to be like his dad.
Did Jesus get notes on that when he did parables that were violent?
Well, isn't that the interesting thing that why is it that Christian stories are so poor when we have the founder of the faith told stories all the time and he left them vague and he explained why he left them vague.
He even had the board of trustees saying, excuse me, Jesus, I feel like your story, they'd given him notes on it.
I feel like your story wasn't clear enough.
Why did you do that?
And then he explains.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My favorite Christian art, like my favorite Christian artist.
He gets a little Calvinist there, though.
Yeah.
I don't really like that.
My favorite Christian art is always the stuff that asks questions.
And I think that's the problem is we don't like asking questions because it feels like we're, oh, are we doubting?
Are we doubting God?
You know, if you ask a question through a piece of art.
It'd be like a lesson.
It has to have all the answers.
That's something I like about Scott Derrickson.
Said it's better to ask deep questions than to give simple answers.
He got that from me.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
That makes a lot of sense.
Now that I've met you, I'm like, this is where Scott Derrickson got all his stuff.
Yeah, I think a great example of that is the movie Risen.
I don't know if you guys saw that, but it's kind of a, it's kind of like seven.
You know, it's a, it's a mystery.
It's a murder mystery about Jesus.
Like, who done it?
Who done it about Jesus?
And he's like following a Roman guard or something.
Yeah.
And so he's been assigned task to find out what happened to the body.
And it is very interesting for the first half.
And then spoiler alert for this Christian movie that came out five years ago.
He finds him.
He finds Jesus.
And then you follow him through all the like, and it's fun because it's like, oh, I remember it's like greatest hits of Jesus post resurrection and all the, you know, he's walking on water and he's pulling the fish out and he's doing all those miracles he did.
And then we get to see him ascend.
And I think it would have been better had they left it ambiguous.
Like, so he decided, you know, if that, if it ends with him deciding, he's like, look, I'm sorry, but I know my assignment was to find the body.
All the evidence here tells me that there is no body, that he is alive.
I can't do this job anymore and walks away.
and then maybe he's walking to where he believes Jesus is.
Maybe you do see, like...
To the cross.
See the cross.
Or you see him.
Dinosaur bone cross.
See a light going up into the sky or something.
He gets beamed up.
You see him ascending, maybe.
Or maybe it isn't.
But then when does the atheist get hit by the car?
Right.
And that's the issue.
Like, how do you murder the atheist in your movie?
How do you take revenge on the atheist?
He's burned the run over by a chariot or something, maybe.
That's in the Christian version of Save the Cat, which is the film writing book that has all these snazzy little titles for killing people.
Kill the atheist.
Yeah.
I was tracking.
I was tracking.
Oh, dear.
You mentioned some other movies I hadn't heard of, and I don't know how many people have, but you said they're worth mentioning.
Princess Cut.
What is Princess Cut?
Oh, yeah, that's a great one.
You guys remember I Kiss Dating Goodbye?
The book that ruined my childhood.
Same.
Do you guys have like, I have these two sets of people that get on my nerves?
I've got like these ultra Christians who are like, yeah, you should get your dad to pick who you're going to marry.
Right.
Because he knows my dad would be great at that.
And my dad's a great guy, by the way.
But I don't want, he's not in charge of who I marry.
And then there's people who say that like the first 18 years of my life ruined my entire life.
And not that that does, but just like I kissed dating goodbye destroyed my childhood, which I don't believe it destroyed anybody's life.
I don't believe it.
There's a whole documentary that's like apologizing.
Like, because Josh Harris apologizes and he's like, I'm sorry.
And I feel like that's a bit arrogant.
I'm so sorry for like the power that I had over everybody's life.
Yeah.
And the funny thing is the book in itself isn't.
You know, people just took the name of the book.
It really wasn't that bad, you know, in terms of what it was saying.
It was just like, don't give your heart to anyone too soon.
And it's like, it was pretty standard stuff as far as I was concerned.
But I probably saved me from a lot of mistakes, to be honest.
Yeah.
I mean, I made other mistakes, but yeah.
But was your motivation out of guilt?
Yeah, I know.
I mean, I think, yeah, it's like anything.
It's not like the cleanest argument, but it was also the strange decision to have like a, what is he, like, 17 or 18 or something?
It's just dumb.
That's the weirdest thing.
Make have someone that young, unmarried, write a book like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that was weird.
Here's how to have a happy and fulfilling marriage.
Yeah.
I promise you, my life is a good idea.
Here's how to have a happy and fulfilling marriage.
Real life.
Yeah.
So Princess Cut is kind of that.
It's about this girl who's dating all the wrong guys.
It begins with her going to meet her boyfriend that she's like, he's going to, I think he's going to propose today.
And she goes and she's in this restaurant and his friends are there.
She wasn't expecting that.
And then he does propose to a different girl.
Oh, man.
Right in front of her.
Yeah.
And it's like, well, that seems like something you should have known.
Yeah, you should have known about.
That's kind of on you.
Yeah.
That's kind of on you at that point.
Did he know you guys were dating?
Seems like he didn't.
He didn't even know her.
He was a girl.
Yeah.
So it kicks off either way.
She's found him.
I have so many questions already.
Yeah.
The movie doesn't answer those.
Okay.
Yeah.
So it continues, and she decides that, you know, she's not going to date.
And then she meets this guy.
There's like two guys.
It's been a while.
I haven't watched it in a while, but eventually she decides that her dad's going to pick who she's going to marry.
And it's this guy who in the movie, it feels more like he's in love with, like the dad's in love with the guy more than she is.
And he's just like so thrilled about Clint.
It's his name.
Okay, Clint.
And he's closer to her dad's age, too.
So I think he's just excited.
I'm going to get to go fishing and hunting with this guy.
He's going to help me on my, he has a soy farm, which makes a lot of sense if you think about it.
You know, your friends have a soy farm?
Yeah.
You get excited about the idea because you have like your kids playing together with your buddies, you know, you're like, these two could get married one day.
Then all of our family trips could be this, us hanging out, you know.
Yeah.
It's like, maybe, maybe just be friends with that guy.
Don't force him on your daughter.
There's something to be said for arranged marriages.
So it gets real wacky.
So this other guy shows up and is like, you know, wants to wants to date her.
And Clint's ex-fiancé showed up.
And you find out that Clint doesn't have a perfect past.
And then there's this fight with shovels in the barn.
It gets real crazy.
It's funny.
That sold it.
Fight with shovels in the barn.
Is it a good fight?
How's the choreography?
It's not great, surprisingly.
It's not like John Wick love.
No.
Though there is a David A. R. White did a movie called Beckman that is like a Christian John Wick.
Oh, really?
What?
How is it?
Because I was going to say, I want to say that.
If we get that deep, we get that deep faith.
I said it's the Christian John Wick.
The way that he says movies are not good is so deceitful because he goes, it's not good.
It's very bad.
And I'm like, oh, it's not bad.
I had a lot of fun with it.
Yeah.
So it's not good choreography?
Well, it's, I mean, it's the veggie tale situation where there just wasn't a lot of budget.
Not enough budget, yeah.
But why then make it?
Yeah.
If we don't have the money, why are you making it?
But isn't that why?
Because that's what it seems like.
Like, if you have the Christian labeled thing, there's a certain subset of people that will pay for it.
Yeah, no matter what.
No matter how bad it is.
It's Cartman starting a Christian band on South Park.
He's like, they're built in audience.
We're going to start Christian band.
And people will buy it.
I think that genuinely is.
I think that people will continue to make these poorly made movies or they'll find other ways to make money.
I think we have kind of a Christ-exploitation situation right now where there is a lot of like in movies in general.
There's a lot of B-movies being made because there's a lot of streaming services and they just need to have 400,000 titles on their streaming service.
So if you go on like Pluto or Plex or like these different places that have a bunch of free movies, you can find Shark to Puss versus Werewolf.
Yeah, isn't there a Christian?
What's the Christian streaming service?
There's, well, which one?
I mean, Pureflix.
Pure A.
It makes like so many movies.
They have to just be pumping these things out.
Yeah.
You see the list and you're like, I don't know.
And it's all the same actor and all that.
I just don't know.
David A. R. White.
David A. R. White.
Yeah.
He's in a bunch of like Malibu Dan the Family Man.
Like it's a sitcom.
He's in another sitcom on Pure Flix called Hitting the Breaks.
Was he the John Wick guy?
He's the John Wick guy, Beckman.
He's also in a post-apocalyptic.
Is it that's the Mad Max one?
Yeah, the Mad Max one.
Redemption Road or something.
Revelation.
Is it Revelation Road?
So is it like the asylum model?
So Asylum is like the basically bank for people that know this, they make like they make like they made Transmorphers.
Yeah, it looks like the title.
It looks like the movie.
And they completely make these really low-budget movies, knowing a certain percent of people will get the wrong movie.
I don't know if they'll still do that.
Look, I got you that Transmorphers movie you were asking me for.
Yeah.
Because also if you're in the video from like video storys where like the new releases and stuff would cost more.
Yeah.
And then you say, oh, Transformer, I'm getting a hot deal here.
It's in this section.
They actually put it over here.
The whole model is based on just deceiving people.
Dumb people.
Yeah.
I don't know what it is now, though.
Like, is it that people are flipping through?
Like Shark to Puss versus Werewolf or whatever.
Is that to like trick someone to click on it?
Yeah, I don't think that.
I think that one's a certain – I've heard that in horror, there's also a certain genre of audience that will basically rent or buy every horror movie that comes out.
There's just a – So if you keep things at a certain budget, then you, yeah, horror movies are very safe at low budget.
Well, that's why so many are made.
The horror world is very similar to the Christian world.
You'll have kind of like if you talk to somebody and say, well, you know what?
This is just a product of indie films, not Christian films.
All indie films are this way.
But I think the difference is, for one, like those horror movies, I've been to these festivals where, you know, the film festivals with horror movies.
And when they're watching like a campy, over-the-top, bloody horror movie, people are laughing.
Yeah.
Like it's, they know this is ridiculous, and that's why it was made.
They're there to have fun and watch this like crazy over-the-top thing.
I've been, I went to the premiere of Overcomer and people did laugh, but like.
It's a Christian movie for reference.
Sorry, that.
Yeah.
I feel like I've heard of it.
It's the most recent Kendrick Brothers movie.
Okay.
With sports, right?
Sports balls.
Oh, it's a sport.
Sports running.
Oh, running.
Yeah.
That's sports.
He was a basketball coach, and then the town got shut down, or the factory got shut down, and then he becomes the running coach.
But there's only one runner.
He only has one leg.
That's one of those examples.
It only has one leg.
She overcame that.
He found Jesus and grew a leg.
It's quite an inspirational story, to be honest with you.
And I resent that you guys make fun of it.
That's rude.
That's a good example of like, it's got three characters and they all kind of are supposed to have the story arc.
But they're fine at the beginning.
I'm like, these are pretty.
Like, if any of these people were my neighbors, I'd be very pleased.
So what's wrong with them?
Why are we like, why do they need to, it's not really that impactful that they learn to be a little more Christian than they were before.
Like, they're just fine.
Where's the story arc here?
But then you do get kind of like that Kevin Sorbo movie that came out, Let There Be Light, which is, he is a hardcore atheist.
Did you guys see God's Not Dead?
I saw the first one.
So Let There Ne Dead.
The God's Not Dead movie?
I'm quite the advocate for God's Not Dead 3.
I'm a big fan.
I'm a big fan.
It's the Supreme Court one, right?
No, that's two.
Oh, sorry.
Yeah.
What's three?
Three is different writer, different director.
It's directed by Michael Mason, but that's not actually who directed it.
That's a Sudan name or something.
And the real director, I think it's...
Like Michael Bay or something?
It's Michael Bay.
He actually directed it.
No, it's the guy who did.
His name's I know his name, but I think I won't say it because he doesn't want people to know.
So tell us.
Yeah, I'll tell you guys later.
And the subscriber portion.
That's like Kirk.
Hey, you, are you enjoying this interview?
Oh, I know I am.
Oh, I sure am.
I'm actually probably sweating trying to think up new questions.
Right.
Yeah.
This very moment.
But if you're enjoying it, you should become a Babylon B subscriber because the interviews are much longer.
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Leather Be Light's funny because it is very much, like, if I didn't know that Kevin Sorbo, I think he's very sincere, but it is like a parody.
It takes all of the tropes.
It's like someone watched my How to Make a Christian movie and then made a movie on that.
It's got a little kid who dies and goes to heaven.
It's got an atheist who he's playing Hitchens, basically, and he's doing these speeches and he's like, you know, arguing with these bastards.
And then he gets hit by a car and he goes to heaven and sees his dead son.
And then his wife gets cancer and they come up with this whole thing that I think what they were trying to do is start a movement where everybody on Christmas Eve at 12 o'clock will shine their light, their phone light up into the sky so people could see it from space, which I don't know what if that would happen.
That would happen.
I don't know.
I don't think that's.
It's like the everything bagel.
And it's like a selfie for God is what they say in the movie.
A selfie for God.
It doesn't make any sense.
That's what he wants.
Because you don't shine your light.
But you think they were actually trying to start a movement outside.
Yes.
Like in the God's Not Dead movie where they wanted everybody to text.
To tax their friends.
They actually wanted to start this thing where Christmas you have to know how to have your light on while your camera is aimed at you.
I don't think they're actually taking a picture.
They're just shining the light up into the sky.
Oh, like at a concert, everyone holding the light.
But you're right.
A majority of their audience would actually have to know how to use their phone.
I would have put a tutorial on how to get your flashlight to work on your phone.
Yeah.
Most of that audience, probably.
That's like my stepmom.
I was trying to show her how to do it when they were visited.
Or they would have to know how to turn their flashlight off after.
Yeah.
Just walk around with their flashlight on all.
That happens to me all the time.
All right.
Well, we're going to go into our subscriber portion now.
And Kevin's going to tell us about actually good Christian movies.
Yeah, what are the good ones?
So it won't be a long subscriber.
So it's about three minutes.
Yeah.
And then we're going to do the 10 questions.
And we've got all kinds of other crazy stuff to talk about.
Everybody?
It'll never end.
Let's do it.
Thanks for having me on, guys.
It's fun.
Yeah.
I didn't want to go without seeming grateful.
Coming up next for Babylon Bee subscribers.
Good movies.
Tell us about good Christian movies.
Oh, yeah.
There's one breakthrough is probably the best of the My Kidas in the Hospital genre.
Oh, what's your peanut show?
You said you were going to talk about all the abortion movies you've watched.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, we never got that.
Yeah, yep.
A lot of abortion movies out there.
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