Christian Apologist Canceled By CNN: The Sean McDowell Interview
This is the Babylon Bee Interview Show. In this episode of The Babylon Bee Podcast, Kyle and Ethan talk to Sean McDowell. They talk about Purity Culture, the BLM organization, Yoga, and evil G-Rated Disney films. Sean is an author, speaker, and apologetics professor at Biola University. Sean has earned his P.H.D. in Apologetics and Worldview Studies from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He has since used his knowledge to equip the church in apologetics speaking at conferences, schools, and churches nationwide. Sean has authored, co-author or edited over 18 books on various topics in apologetics. Be sure to check out The Babylon Bee YouTube Channel for more podcasts, podcast shorts, animation, and more. To watch or listen to the full podcast, become a subscriber at https://babylonbee.com/plans. Topics Discussed Difference teaching between high school and college students Chasing Love Science and faith Is Christianity good? Problem with Evil Beach ball metaphor Objective standard of ethics Secular worldview in Christian homes G rated relativistic worldview Frozen 2 Pocahontas problem Matrix vs Saving Private Ryan CNN interview Rick Warren's secret library Sean's father on tolerance Buzzwords from the Left Tolerance Response towards BLM Discernment towards the BLM organization Coleman Hughes How do Christians push for more conversations Yoga Purity culture Questioning phase over rebellious phase Subscriber Portion Purity Culture Critiquing purity culture Fate of the apostles Bartolomeu Peter being crucified upside down Christian schools
I just have to say that I object strenuously to your use of the word hilarious.
Hard-hitting questions.
What do you think about feminism?
Do you like it?
Taking you to the cutting edge of truth.
Yeah, well, Last Jedi is one of the worst movies ever made, and it was very clear that Brian Johnson doesn't like Star Wars.
Kyle pulls no punches.
I want to ask how you're able to sleep at night.
Ethan brings bone-shattering common sense from the top rope.
If I may, how double dare you?
This is the Babylon B interview show.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Babylon Bee Interview Show.
I'm your host, Kyle Mann, and I'm Kyle's co-host, Ethan Nicole.
In this episode of the Babylon Bee podcast, Kyle and Ethan will talk to Sean McDowell.
Sean is an author, speaker, and apologetics professor at Biola University.
Can I just read it?
Sean has earned his PhD in apologetics and worldview studies from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
There's no passion in that.
He has since used his knowledge to equip the church in apologetic speaking at conferences, schools, and churches nationwide.
And you know what, Ethan?
He's also authored, co-authored, or edited over 18 books on various topics in apologetics.
You're morphing more and more into Kermit the Frog as you do that voice you're doing.
You've been getting to Target Betty.
He's been doing a lot of books and stuff.
He wrote this book, Cha Sing Love.
Chasing.
It's chasing.
I thought it was like a yoga or some kind of Indian thing.
It sounds like a something Rob Bell would write.
This is called Cha Singh Love.
Cha Singh.
No, it's not like something Rob Bell would write.
It's a book on sex, love, and relationships.
But yeah, he's an apologist and he's a smart guy, and we're not.
And so we're going to talk to him, and he's going to make us smart.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
He's his own person, but his dad is Josh McDowell.
Yeah, just we thought we'd throw that.
He's his own person.
We thought we'd like he's probably got it.
He's got to bring that up in conversations.
Like, yeah.
By the way.
I'm sure he uses it to get into concerts and stuff.
Getting backstage at the newsboys show.
Yeah, that's what I would do.
Yeah.
All he needs is his driver's license.
He doesn't even need it backstage pass.
By the way.
Yeah.
See that last name?
Evidence that demands a verdict.
Oh, wait.
Is that Strobel?
No, no, that's McDowell.
Okay.
That's close.
Good job.
Cool.
Oh, he's coming right now.
Here he comes.
Floating in.
He's materializing right there in the chair.
Hi, Sean.
How are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
Good.
I'm good.
How are you, Ethan?
Oh, I'm pretty good.
Cool.
Anything interesting happened to you recently?
No?
Okay.
Am I being interviewed?
No, just don't.
Okay.
Just making conversation.
I was crazy.
I was in this room, and then of all the people in the world, Sean McDowell walked in and sat right next to me.
Yeah, strange.
He's a noted apologist.
From a family of noted apologists.
His mom's an apologist.
His dad's an apologist.
So like, you guys just like have breakfast in the morning.
And what do you guys have for breakfast?
Atheists?
That's true.
Well, it's like most, you know, it's the stereotypical father who's like, no, you're going to play football and relive my glory days.
And he's just constantly.
Second law of thermodynamics.
What is it?
Calem argument.
Dad, Calem.
I can't remember.
Something like that.
I don't know.
You nailed it.
That's exactly.
Exactly.
Couldn't have been.
Although, actually, in truth, when I was growing up, my dad was doing what he kind of calls sexual apologetics, this Y Wade campaign.
And I kid you not, like, it was the first global sexual purity campaign in the 80s.
And we would sit down and be like McDowell dinner conversation, STDs, Bible and theology.
Like he was always generating conversation.
So it's funny what you said, but there's some truth behind it that we have a lot of those conversations.
Sexual apologetics.
He's like using that women to make analogies or anything.
You didn't call that publicly, let me say.
That's more of an off-the-record term.
Now it's public.
It's on the record.
We're recording.
It is now on the record.
So you teach at Biola?
I do.
Kids.
Yeah.
So rascals.
Talk.
No, but you talk.
Oh, sure.
Eighth year teaching at Biola Talbot.
Taught 10 years high school before that, Bible classes, southern Orange County.
And I actually still do that part-time because I love hanging out with high school students.
And my three kids are at this school.
And so I've been married, my high school sweetheart, two decades.
And we've got three kids.
This year we have a high schooler, junior higher, and an elementary school kid.
And another teenager who lives with our family.
So we have a full-packed family schedule, which keeps it fun.
You and your wife ever get in the sexual apologetics debates?
Sorry.
You don't have to answer that.
I'm going to be hung up on it where it's sexual apologetics now.
There's a few different takes on it.
Sexual apologetics, like, I don't think sex needs defending.
And, you know, I don't think you need apologetic or what's okay.
Yeah, it's like, I don't know.
This is a disaster.
Oh, dear.
Complete disaster.
So who's dumber?
High school kids or college kids?
When you teach?
Oh, that is, that is a lose, lose question.
However, I answer that.
Who's worse?
Gosh, who's worse?
Here's what I would say.
You can just give us a series.
So one of the differences, half of my job with high school students is motivating them that like issues matter.
College students, at least those I teach are juniors and seniors.
So they kind of get they're going out in the real world and understand the importance of the topic.
So that's one of the differences.
But I mean, I love teaching high school, hanging out with students.
It's fun.
College students understand that issues matter because of how they make you look.
Well, that's a negative view of college age.
I think they're closer.
The ones I teach are closer to the quote, like real world.
We're getting a job.
We're going to be having these conversations.
Got to think this through.
You know, a lot of high school students are just not on that level.
So I think when they get it, the students will come alive.
And I found they want to have conversations on issues that matter.
They're just three, four years apart in life experience.
And it's a big four years.
Idealistic age.
Okay.
So what's the main issue that college students are encountered with today?
I mean, to me, it seems like it's like gender stuff.
You know, I don't know.
I know you got this new book, Chasing Love, on some of these issues.
Is that the main thing that's challenging?
I guess specifically Christian students that you're teaching.
Yeah, I actually found that the questions amongst Christian kids and non-Christian kids are pretty similar.
Okay.
Because we're swimming in the same cultural waters, watching the same videos, same Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, movies on Netflix.
So it's similar questions.
Now they answer them and process them differently, but I think the questions are pretty similar, Christian or not.
I think there's a few big questions.
One is clearly, like you said, issues of sexuality, LGBTQ, how they process this to make sense of this.
That's huge.
Every time I do a Q ⁇ A with students, either live streaming through Zoom or in person and just open it up for questions, that is hands down one of the top two or three.
So that's a big issue.
I'd also say issues of science and faith are still pressing for young people.
Like, do I have to give up, you know, what does it mean for the intersection of science and faith?
The age of the earth is secondary, but evolution and is there kind of a friction between the two?
That's in their minds.
Because even though I think we live in somewhat of a postmodern culture, there's still this reverence or at least perceived reverence for science, even though I'm not sure how deep it goes.
So I think those questions are central.
And then some of the moral questions, I actually think in the minds of young people, the question is less what is true and is Christianity true, but is Christianity good?
So questions like evil and suffering, questions like the bad things that have been done in the name of Christianity.
Sorry about it wrong, but you see that among Christian students and non-Christian students?
Yeah, I see it amongst both.
Now, that one probably in particular is more non-Christian kids in particular, but the other two I think are Christian kids as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you teach a problem of evil course, you were saying.
And that's for graduate students.
I do.
Yeah.
I'm preparing it right now.
I'll teach it for the first time in fall for grad students, but there will be an undergrad component of that.
And I actually think that's the biggest question that's out there.
So when you ask this question in my mind, I think of what are timely questions and what are timeless questions?
Problem of evil is a timeless question.
I mean, in the book of Job, people have always asked that and they always will ask that.
But it has a certain timely component right now.
Like even again, LGBTQ questions at the heart of it is many people are asking, why do I suffer?
Why was I made that way?
Where is God when I hurt?
At the heart of that is the problem of evil and suffering.
Yeah.
And what are the things our culture takes for granted?
You think?
Because I think that's the thing is like, I don't think a lot of, especially when you're that age, but our culture seems to take that, the idea that evil exists for granted.
If they even talk about it, they act like it's obvious what's evil.
We just know.
To even question it or to try to decide why do we call evil evil?
Or, you know, I don't know.
What do you feel are some of the things that our culture takes for granted or borrows from Christianity?
So one of a metaphor that I use that's helpful to me and my students is think of like a beach ball.
Take a beach ball and you push it underwater because of gravity, because the nature of the world, it's going to pop back up.
And it's going to take a lot of force and energy to push it down.
Well, Romans 1 talks about that people know God exists, but they suppress that truth.
So even people in our world today that don't believe in God, whether they're Gnostics, atheists, pantheists, whatever, they're still made in God's image and they still live in God's world.
So we can only suppress certain ideas so much and they're going to pop back up.
So in our culture, I think you're absolutely right that we, even people whose worldview cannot account for objective right and wrong, assume there's a right and wrong.
I mean, we don't live in a relativistic, yeah, I mean, even we don't live in a relativistic culture.
The worst thing you can get called today almost is a racist.
And no one's like, well, that's just your truth.
Racism is fine for me.
There's objective moral condemnation, which only makes sense if there's a moral standard.
So I think that's the case.
I think in our culture, again, back to this issue, people know that men and women are different.
We know this.
And if you pay attention, this truth is going to bubble to the surface in different ways.
So that's how I approach this.
I'm always, because I assume Christianity is true and people want to, their hearts want to align with what is true, but we just buy a lot of bad ideas, I think, that cloud it.
And I'm looking for signs when that truth just kind of pops to the surface, so to speak.
Yeah.
Hey, can you bleep out where you said men are different from women so we don't get demonetized?
Thanks.
So here's one thing I've always been interested in: is you've got you've got Christian parents sending their Christian kids to Christian schools.
Are you like surprised about some of the things that they haven't been prepared to deal with?
Or what are some things some questions that they haven't had answered by their parents when they're growing up?
Or do you find that kids are showing up prepared?
I don't think most kids are prepared whether they go to a public or private school or the military or wherever they go after high school.
It's the exception in my research and experience of a young person, whether Christian home, Christian school, church, that really has learned how to navigate culture and think Christianly about a range of areas of life.
So I actually think most of our kids have much more of a secular worldview without even realizing it.
And it acts like a filter to how they think about things like love and relationships and engage with culture.
And if we don't press them and go deeper, they'll tell us certain Bible stories that give us the answer we want to, but we don't realize what's motivating it.
And what, I mean, one example of this is just the nature of what freedom is.
Ask young people in a conversation, just say, give me a definition of freedom.
What do you think it means to be a person who's free?
I've done this dozens of times.
And the answer you'll get essentially is freedom is doing whatever you want without restraint.
As long as you're the author of your life and you live out what you want to do, then you're free.
That is totally not a biblical view of freedom.
I think freedom is developing the right wants and embracing the right restraint.
But they have this idea of freedom, I think, embedded into their lives without even realizing if we don't ask the right questions and engage in the right way, we can't even bring to the surface this difference in how they're seeing the world.
It's interesting that you say that it's not a piece of information they don't have.
Or like, you know, they weren't taught this particular argument and they don't, they don't know the second law of thermodynamics, you know, or whatever.
Like they know, they know all that stuff.
Like they can pass the apologetics test or whatever.
Some, not all.
Sure.
That's generous there.
It's this more subtle like worldview that's been ingrained in them.
That's interesting to me.
I think that's absolutely true.
I mean, it's like a fish in water that doesn't even realize they're in water.
I know that's an overused analogy.
I think that's true for our students.
They are swimming in secular ideas, so to speak, and can give you the Bible verses, can tell you the biblical stories, but don't actually know how to think Christianly and apply it to different areas of life and have the skills to navigate just the challenges that come from culture.
Yeah, when I first started parenting, I was really worried about like my kids, you know, I don't want them to see gore or hear bad words on TV, you know, and then now that I'm a crusty old man of 34, I, you know, I'm more bugged by like relativistic worldviews in movies.
You know, I'm like, this G-rated Disney movie is horrible.
You know, I'll give them a lecture on that because I see how subtle it is that they just buy this narrative that they see on Netflix or, you know, the Disney Plus or whatever.
And I find that much more insidious.
I think that's right.
So you remember the Da Vinci Code.
Put a tale mark on the wall for me.
But look, think about this.
The Da Vinci Code was, what, 2000, it was a dozen years ago, roughly, whatever it was.
Well, everybody freaked out about that.
The church was in arms and there was like conferences and events and books because there's this explicit claim, no, Jesus was married and like denies his identity.
Well, what's more dangerous?
This direct frontal attack or these very subtle ideas in cartoons and in shows?
I think it's the subtle ones that are far more dangerous because you just take them for granted and the stories form your affections.
You don't even realize you're being persuaded.
That's what I said.
But what's the worst that are smarter?
What are the worst movies philosophically?
Have you guys got any?
Frozen 2.
Frozen 2 is pretty bad.
Pocahontas.
I think about Frozen 2 is that she goes out and she's like, I'm trying to find this savior and there's a savior out there.
And there's like this song she's listening to.
And then she gets there and she sings this whole song.
It's me.
I'm the savior.
I'm like, what?
Wait, I haven't seen Frozen 200.
Oh, sorry.
Spoiler.
You just spoil it.
Did you want to poke on us?
Well, poke my honeys.
We can't take you anywhere, man.
Lock this guy in his office next time we get a guest.
Nobody knows what honey are.
I don't know.
He's just dirty.
No, no, leave it to the imagination.
Don't even answer that one.
I'm not going to do it.
Pocahontas.
Defend that first.
Or just sing the song.
Sorry.
Is this a normal interview?
This is a normal interview, man.
Well, for us.
I don't know.
Is that for me?
How's this compare?
I don't even know how to answer that.
Yeah, just go back to Pocahontas before I derailed it.
I want to hear your Pocahontas take.
For real?
Yeah, sure, yeah.
No, I just, I think the ideas of the new age ideas that are embedded within it, it's fun.
It's Disney.
It's a cartoon.
So we think it's harmless.
Takes out some of the Christian component.
That's the kind of stuff that we overlook and don't really analyze.
And so I'll like one example I'll do with my students and I try to get them to see this is I'll take these are high school students.
I'll show them the a scene from the Matrix.
I know this is obviously a dated movie, but they told me it's still cool.
Is the Matrix violence scene where they go into Free Morpheus, I think who it is, and they walk into the lobby of that hotel and they have like glasses on and trench coats and they blow all these people away and there's like music.
It's like you kind of watch that and you're like, yeah, I want to be able to dive off walls and like shoot people like this.
Like it's, it feels cool.
And it's rated R because of violence.
And then I'll show them the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, which is also rated R because of violence.
And I'll and I'll make the point: you can have movies with the same rating for the same reason.
One is glorifying violence and making it cool.
The other one is showing how horrifying it is.
And that doesn't make it wrong to watch Matrix.
That's not my point.
I actually love that movie.
But we got to look through a little bit more thoughtful lenses than Christians is like, well, this many F words.
Yeah.
There's this sex scene.
There's violence.
So equals bad.
I'm like, no, we got to be way more thoughtful than that.
Yeah, I look at some of the Christian movie review sites, you know, and it's like, they'll literally do that.
They'll go, this movie has 172 F-bombs.
You know, this many instances of this and that.
It's such a systematic way to look at it versus this holistic way of trying to figure out what the worldview is behind something.
And I think those are helpful.
Yeah, no, no.
But I like F-bombs.
It's personally all that we do, right?
If it's in war, I have more than like a movie that's glorifying that F-bombs that it just didn't need to be in there.
Like, I can do that and give my kids context for it.
Yeah.
Let's get VidAngel.
Wait, is that the one?
VidAngel is the one that cuts out.
Yeah, they change it.
And you can pick specifically what people can replace the words.
Someday.
Someday we'll get that.
Yeah.
Yeah, sure.
Someday they'll have like a deep fake one where you can switch everybody to Kirk Cameron.
Yeah.
I would watch that.
Just pick your eye.
You know, I don't like that guy.
That guy is a secular guy.
We'll get Kirk Cameron here, Kevin Serbo, Kevin Sorbo, Sean Aston.
Yep.
You know.
It's a glitch.
John Aston got taken over by the white witch.
Wrong face, wrong body.
So I didn't know a lot about this, but our research team found that you had been invited to talk on CNN, and then they disinvited you.
What was that story?
That sounded interesting.
Yeah, that was, so this was 2015 for the year that O'Bergefell versus Hodges came down, the Supreme Court ruling.
And as best I remember it, somebody from CNN called the head of Southern Baptists in Southern California looking for a Southern Baptist guest with certain assumptions from CNN of what a Southern Baptist would bring to the table.
Well, the head of the Southern Baptist called Rick Warren, and he called me, assuming we wouldn't fit that stereotype and hopefully would lead with some graciousness and kindness, calls me up and goes, hey, CNN's looking for somebody tonight to be on, I think it was a panel to talk about the ruling.
And I was like, my wife is actually, she's hanging with her friends tonight.
I'm driving kids to gymnastics, basketball.
Like, I don't have time.
And he goes, let me give you the number.
Just call up the producer of this show and see if you could wear it out.
I was like, okay.
So I called the guy up and we talked, figured it wasn't going to work, not to mention traffic pre-COVID as it is.
And he goes, well, let me keep your number.
And can I call you back if something else comes up?
I was like, sure.
Didn't expect to hear from him.
About an hour later, I'm driving home and I see this LA number on my phone.
I'm like, oh, this might be legit.
Pick it up.
And he goes, hey, now we're doing a show on the Bruce Jenner-Caitlin Jenner transition.
Would you call in and give your perspective on this?
And I was about to say no.
And my son, he's 16 now.
He was 11 in the back.
He goes, do it, dad, do it.
You'll be on TV.
And I was like, word for word.
And my answer was like, okay, I guess I'm that dad.
My son thinks it's cool.
I'll do it.
I said, fine.
And he goes, okay, what's your position?
And as best I can remember, I said something in the effect of like, look, I'm a Christian.
Jesus loves people who are transgender.
There's a lot.
This has become a politically hot issue, but the studies show that transgender people are more likely to suffer psychologically depression, loneliness, anxiety.
I think we need to calm down, find common ground, and ask how we really help this community of people.
I'll never forget it.
There was a pause and he goes, oh man, I can't have you on.
You're much too compassionate.
Word for word.
And I had two thoughts.
One, my initial thought was like.
You don't fit the narrative.
Exactly.
But I thought, okay, what could I have said that would not be, because I'm not going to be a provocateur.
I don't think that helps when it's all said and done.
But what appropriately provocation could I say that would advance at least a good idea?
And then second, I was just like, wow, they really don't care, at least this producer, this show, about helping trans people.
So I watched the show.
My son wanted to watch it.
And it was just, I mean, it was a, it was a circus.
People are speaking up to the audience, cutting each other off, drama.
It's like, this is about ratings, not actually helping people.
So I guess if that's disinvited, you could say I was disinvited.
Whatever the word went on.
Yeah, just it was, I didn't fit the narrative.
I think that's what it was.
You could have referred them to a really fiery.
Yeah.
I know a guy that's on the trailer in Alabama.
I don't work for Pickle Pixie.
I know a bunch of bigots.
I can put you in contact.
We know who they got on.
When they're watching the show, they're like, oh, we're getting a call from somebody.
And if I remember correctly, the site was ChristianMilitant.com.
I was thinking like, Duckshare.
They call it.
Phil Roberts.
Some King James only guy.
Yeah.
So.
Now, have you ever been in Rick Warren's secret library?
Or the dungeon.
So, there's, I think there's a library at the church, if I remember, backstage.
Is that what you mean?
Or is that one like that?
He's got some secret one and you pull the hand back and you go back and he's got this huge library.
I saw a video of it on the internet.
I don't know.
You mentioned Rick Warren, so I thought maybe you had it in.
I don't remember that.
I remember, I did have a chance to speak.
It's been a few years backstage, but I don't, I think I would remember a super cool library like that.
Ask your dad about it.
Maybe I'm not quite in yet.
Could you call your dad right now?
No.
My dad passed away.
No, I'm just kidding.
I was like, what?
I never heard about this.
Man.
Couldn't resist.
Couldn't resist.
We are the jokesters around here.
Well, on that, my memory of your dad is when I listened to Christian radio as a young Christian.
He had this ad railing about tolerance.
Tolerance.
Oh, yeah.
That's not what it means.
It means, really, it means not tolerance.
And goes on.
That's not how it was like that.
It's a little smarter than that, maybe.
Yeah, smarter version of that.
But it's funny now: tolerance, nobody says that word anymore, right?
Because that was, they didn't mean it at that point.
Like, tolerance was a buzzword, but it really, it didn't really mean everybody getting along.
And like, it kind of did.
But now, like, they don't even fake that they mean that.
Now, like, tolerance is a problematic word.
It's true.
There's, there was a shift because, you know, that used to be what we make fun of the left for.
Yeah.
Oh, you say you're tolerant.
You said really you're not tolerant.
I don't even say it now.
And I'm like, yeah, we don't even believe in tolerance.
So what's the buzzword now?
Inclusivity, diversity.
I think that's what it is.
By the way, on tolerance, my dad, he's written over 150-some books.
On tolerance.
No, no, definitely not on tolerance.
And he's alive.
He is alive.
Yep.
He's 81 and he has not lost a beat, interestingly enough.
That book on tolerance, I actually think is one of the most unique, powerful contributions he made looking back on his life.
So he wrote it in the late 90s and basically said, tolerance has shifted from we can agree to disagree.
That's what tolerance means.
Like, okay, I'll tolerate tomatoes on my salad, even though I don't like it.
You only tolerate something you don't like.
And he was one of the first people who said, no, no, tolerance means if you don't affirm somebody's behavior, life choices, and beliefs.
Endorse it.
You're intolerant and you're a bigot.
And I remember thinking, this is crazy.
And that was a time where he was years ahead of the curve.
I actually think that's one of his most significant contributions where he just kind of read where culture was going and saw it before a lot of other people did.
Yeah, I remember that I associate his name with that because I remember no one, it was a good word till that point.
It was like, so I was like, whoa, They don't mean what they're saying when they say tolerance here.
It's like a math equation that doesn't add up.
Like you can tell, you can see it coming.
It's a car wreck at the end.
Like tolerance, but you have to endorse everything everybody believes that doesn't work.
That'll explode.
No, I think you're on to something.
And it's shifted now from he called it the new tolerance in the late 90s.
And now I think in some ways he, I don't know how you could have seen it differently, but I don't know that anybody could have anticipated the cancel culture and demonization and silencing and powers to just wreck somebody's life who doesn't buy a certain view of tolerance.
Right.
I'm not sure anybody completely saw that coming, but this idea that if you don't affirm me, you're the bigot.
And I can't say, hey, I disagree with you and love you.
I still respect you.
That was a novel thought when you go back to the late 90s, early 2000s.
Yeah.
So what do you think about, I mean, what's your take or response to the whole Black Lives Matter?
I mean, there's a lot of churches that are taking different positions and trying to figure out how to be like relevant in the midst of it.
Some are like, it's dumb.
And some are like, we totally are with it.
There you go.
So when during the George Floyd and the protests that followed, I wrote a post.
I forget the exact words for it, but the title was something like, I believe all black lives matter, but I will not support BLM.
And just tried to make a distinction when a lot of people were not making these careful distinctions between the phrase Black Lives Matters.
As I've talked to a number of my black friends, they will clearly say, we're not saying only Black Lives Matter.
We're not saying other Black Lives Don't Matter.
We're drawing attention to an injustice that has been experienced by Black people in this community.
So as I've talked to my Black friends, they're like, that's what we mean by it.
But you search Black Lives Matters and the organization comes up and they've gotten a lot of press from this.
And I think they've taken it down, interestingly enough, since then.
But if you went to their website originally, I linked to all this stuff.
They're like, we are against the nuclear family.
We are pro-choice.
We embrace Marxism.
We push this LGBTQ agenda.
Like they had ideas embedded within this organization that I think are directly in conflict with a Christian worldview.
So I think we have to have some discernment and understand that when somebody says Black Lives Matter, they might mean something very different about this.
So I think the organization is hugely problematic, but I definitely want to affirm that Black Lives Matter and work with my friends, whatever race they are, to try to make right some of the injustices that have happened to this community.
I think you can have both.
When that discernment is lacking, I think we end up getting into trouble and unnecessarily support an organization that on the flip side is really fighting to undermine the very things that Christianity affirms.
It's kind of a genius branding move.
Yeah.
It's brilliant.
Make an organization called I Like Puppies.
Yeah.
Well, but that's the other side of it because the implication, and this is going to be sensitive, is that to agree, yeah, yeah, Black Lives Matter.
It seems to give ground to the idea that like most of us didn't think they mattered until you guys said it.
And that's the part that I think gets a lot of people defensive is like, it kind of felt like we were making a lot better progress racially.
And then this came along and it's way worse now.
I think that's the frustrating part is like, I understand the hesitation to embrace the idea that like, yeah, this whole country is against black people and everybody hates black people.
We got to change that.
Like, I know those people exist and there are issues coming out of the history that we have, but I don't know how you, I mean, it feels like the only people that are authorized to talk about that are, you know, you got guys like I'm blanking out on his name.
He's like the new Thomas Soule, the young guy.
Cole, call it Hughes.
No.
Call it Bob.
Kevin Hart?
Jim Hart.
No, Kevin Hart.
No.
Kanye.
Kanye.
I'm blanked out.
He's great.
Great guy.
Oh, you're talking about Colin Collins?
Steele.
Shelby Steele.
He's old, right?
He is older, but he's younger than Thomas.
He's the young guy.
He's in the 90s.
Coleman.
Coleman Hughes.
That's him.
Watch Coleman Hughes on YouTube.
I wish we could get him.
You need to cut out the whole part where Ethan was trying to get out of the way.
Yeah, just figure out his way.
Coleman Hughes.
There you go.
But he'll talk about that kind of stuff.
Like he said, he was in Black Lives Matter.
He's a black guy, so he can say all this stuff.
And he was, you know, joining, he was in all this stuff.
And he actually did the research and looked at the actual statistics of violent crimes and stuff.
And He said, there's all these, there was basically evidence enough for him that there was the issue that they were claiming there was.
And so those are the conversations we don't seem to be able to have.
And should we, or what is the approach to that from your perspective?
Do we just kind of give that up?
Or what do you think?
That's that's a tough question.
Very sensitive.
You know, I can tell you when I wrote this post, I had a friend of mine, a black friend of mine, reach out to me.
He goes, I don't disagree with anything you've written.
He said, but my concern is that when we focus on the organization, he said, now we shift to debating this organization and we're not talking about how we really help black people in this community.
We had the same discussion with critical race theory.
He goes, I don't embrace critical race theory.
He goes, I have issues with this.
He goes, but so many times in the white community, it becomes just about that.
And we don't listen and try to help and fix some of the issues that are plaguing the black community.
And I thought that's a really fair perspective.
And I appreciated him coming to me and giving me that perspective where he's coming from.
Yeah.
Yeah, it feels like what happened with you in CNN.
Like there's a conversation that the powers of B Rever don't want us to have.
They want to just keep it inside of this box.
The Southern Baptist is one, you know, thinks, oh, the transgenders are going to hell or whatever.
And if you're not, it's not your perspective, then they don't.
Isolate that audio clip with the OIU in the conversation.
And that's it.
Like the conversation is to be, do black lives matter or not?
Like, you know, we're stuck in this.
Like, I think it's a lot of things, like a lot of things where there's a much more nuanced discussion that needs to happen that does not happen on social media.
Exactly.
And it doesn't lend itself to a nice slogan on a sign.
You know, I wonder if that's what a lot of conversations come down to.
Yeah.
And I guess that's my question: is like, how, how do we as Christians embrace and push for those nuanced conversations, become the safe haven for that kind of thing rather than being viewed as what CNN wanted you to be, or at least that guy.
I'm not saying all of CNN, but probably.
Yeah, not all CNN.
You know, honestly, in some ways, I think it's a bottom-up conversation.
A lot of Christians are afraid to ask these questions.
They're afraid to have these conversations.
So it's easier to just stay away and not make a mistake that you get canceled or somebody says something negative about you.
I think it just starts with our neighbors, all of us.
How do we just, how do we listen better to people?
When this, after the George Floyd thing hit, we went to a man in his 30s, a black man who's very influential in my son, who's 16-year-old his life.
And my son and I were talking, just said, Hey, I'm sure you're getting a lot of calls, and this probably is affecting you in ways that we don't understand.
But would you be willing to just sit down with us and just share how you process this, how you're experiencing this, what you see, what you don't see?
And we went out for an hour and we sat down.
And pretty much I told my son, I'm like, we're just going to listen.
Even if we disagree with something, that's all we're going to do.
And number one, I learned a lot, like just I had not thought of it that perspective.
I just learned a lot from somebody's experience who's a minority.
And second, at the end, he goes, you know what?
I had another friend, white about my age, who reached out to him and goes, hey, let's have a conversation.
And he goes, as soon as I started sharing, this guy jumped in and started correcting me.
And at the end, I kind of had to call him back and be like, how did that conversation go for you?
Because I didn't feel listened to and I didn't feel understood.
And then he just kind of encouraged us.
He's like, I think you guys are trying to understand.
So, I mean, it's not that hard.
Like, we get defensive.
We feel the need to correct people.
I do.
I'm an apologist and professor.
It's my job to correct papers so it like pops up.
But I mean, if we just, if we'd be willing to listen and be patient, there's an awful lot of proverbs that talk about just understanding somebody and where they're coming from.
The wisdom in that builds bridges instead of walls.
So I think if Christians from the bottom up, instead of looking at, well, this pastor and this podcaster and this organization is doing it, like, what if we just reach out to people in our lives and just listen and show grace and love to them?
It's not hard.
And it's something all of us can actually do.
It's like in DMs.
Not in real life.
Twitter DM.
Nobody talks in real life anymore.
Yeah.
Just go slide in the DMs.
I thought Dungeon Master.
But it's true.
No, I think.
Or do DMT.
Have you ever done DMT?
What is DMT?
Sounds like a drug.
I don't know.
Judging by a shirt, possibly.
I would smoke DMT and stare at that shirt.
I've never smoked DMT.
We assumed shirt and faux hawk.
We just went straight to Drake to it.
That's the drug Joe Rogan's always trying to see if his guests have done.
Yeah.
He's looking with the crazy eyes.
Yeah.
We don't have any.
Yeah, none.
We don't share it.
We don't.
Yoga.
From Satan or not?
Oh, my gosh.
That was so random.
That was awesome.
So I'm going to take a step back.
Okay.
And I'm going to say, what do we actually mean by yoga?
The vast majority of yoga that's practiced is honestly just stretching and breathing that's called yoga because it sounds more exotic than just calling it stretching.
Stretching and breathing.
I have no problem with that.
I would just simply tell Christians: just have discernment, be aware, because behind the origin of, I almost said yoda, yoga is a very different worldview that we should simply be aware of and have some discernment if you're going to practice yoga.
That's how I would approach it.
What about Yoda?
Satanic or no?
You know what?
Something I heard.
I don't even know if I can confirm this, but I heard on a podcast that said yoda came from the Hebrew word yada, which means to know, which sounds cool if it's true, but there's probably some Star Wars person watching who's like, you just butchered this.
So I want to know if it's true or not.
Somebody could send me a note because that's an illustration I'm going to use if it's true.
If not, I'll probably still use it, but no, I'm kidding.
Take out what it comes from, guys.
Take out what it means.
You think speech impediments are funny?
Yes.
Hilarious.
Do we run out?
Are we out of topics?
No, we're not out.
I have more.
I got more.
Purity culture.
Did you have a purity ring growing up?
Oh, that is a good topic.
So I did not have a purity ring.
Sad.
So I would say purity culture started mid to late 90s with typically names associated with this would be like Joshua Harris's book, I Kiss Dave Goodbye, True Love Weights, Silver Ring Thing.
Those actually, my dad's purity movement, although he called it something different, was like mid 80s to mid 90s.
Sexual apologetics.
There you go.
Bringing it full circle.
You're going to think of that all the time now, aren't you?
Welcome to Sexual Apologetics.
The Kama Sutra of Sexual Apologetics by Josh McDowell.
Oh, gosh.
Sorry.
Derailed.
Completely derail.
That's going to be the tag on this intro, isn't it?
That is going to, I know I can see it right now.
John McDowell.
All the feedback.
Sexual apologetics.
So there was no, that came kind of after as I was moving into upper high school, into college.
Some of that Purity Ring movement did.
So didn't have that.
So you didn't kiss dating goodbye.
You missed that boat.
No, I read that in college is when that came out.
I have some mixed feelings on that.
But yeah, my parents did not push the no dating at all.
It was more like date with boundaries and wisdom rather than you have to court, which I appreciated that approach.
So if you really want a lot of publicity, get on CNN.
You could just deny your faith and then you could get really popular.
Yeah.
I'm just throwing that out there.
No, it's true.
You're absolutely right.
I have other friends whose dads have had similar public ministries who deny the faith and there's huge stories on it.
But if you embrace the faith, it's not as interesting.
So did you ever have a rebellious phase?
Like you rebelled against apologetics or something?
So that's rebellion just against apologetics.
So I was never that kid who was angry and the prodigal son, just not my personality.
I think maybe some of that is maybe my personality.
Some of that is a good relationship with my mom and my dad.
I did go through more of a questioning period, I guess you could say.
And this is mid-90s.
And really what spurred it on is, interestingly enough, I was just searching on, I remember like the first email I got at Biola.
I'm like, what is this internet thing?
So I'm just searching around trying to figure it out pre-Google.
And for some reason, one of the sites that popped up was this secular web, this atheist web that at the time was huge.
And it began in part by like taking my dad's book chapter by chapter.
And there were, if I remember correctly, like doctors and historians and lawyers and philosophers going chapter by chapter.
I remember reading this stuff going, oh my gosh, like I've never heard this before.
I look back and I don't buy the arguments, but at the time it was really unsettling.
Like, whoa, my parents mean, well, what if I'm wrong?
I remember feeling that.
It wasn't a head game.
So I wasn't angry or rebellious.
I remember telling my dad, we were in Breckenridge, Colorado.
And I was like, dad, I want to know what's true, but man, I got a lot of questions.
I'm not sure that I'm convinced Christianity is really true, not knowing what he's going to say.
And he goes, son, I think that's great.
And I remember being like, did you just hear, like, are you writing a talk in your head?
Or did you actually hear what I said?
And he goes, no.
He goes, I didn't.
He goes, he goes, look, I didn't raise you just to believe something because I said it.
You got to follow what's true.
You got to own your faith was kind of the little response that he gave.
And he goes, look, only reject what you've learned growing up if you think it's false.
He says, I see a lot of people rejecting out of rebellion.
He goes, follow what you think is true.
And, you know, your mom and I love you no matter what.
So I think it was the relationship I had with my parents that just, I wasn't just an angry kid growing up, to be honest.
But I definitely had serious questions about my faith for a season.
You should really spice up that testimony.
Yeah.
We can help creative writers.
We could come up with some, we'll do some spitball twists for you.
Yeah.
And I think it's time for our subscriber portion.
We're going to move into the subscriber lounge.
So we'll dig into these sexual apologetics.
We're going to dig into more sexual apologetics, I guess.
I want to hear your take on the fate of the apostles because you wrote a book on how, you know, I always talk about how they all got hung upside down and nailed and beat up and set on fire and stuff for their faith.
So we'll see how true that is.
All right.
All right.
Let's do it.
Coming up next for Babylon Bee subscribers.
Charity culture.
You said you had more stuff to say.
So, Fate of the Apostles.
Oh, yeah.
Fate of the Apostles.
Being crucified upside down was a thing that happened.
There's precedent for that.
Sure.
But can we actually conclude who's crucified upside down?
At best, I would say parents sending their kids to Christian schools, and I kind of wanted to circle back like Joe Biden's press secretary.
Enjoy this hard-hitting interview.
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