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Dec. 7, 2015 - Art Bell

02:22:13

Art Bell MITD - Neil Sanders Modern Mind Control

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42:34

neil sanders

01:15:51

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art bell ▲ ● ▼		Desert in the Great American Southwest.
		I bid you all good evening, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you may be in the world.
		Everyone covered like a blanket by this program, Midnight in the Desert.
		My name is Arthur Bell.
		All right, the rules of this program are ever so easy.
unidentified		No bad language, and one talk per show.
		During the week, we only have two rules.
		We insist you adhere to.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I would like to welcome the Mighty Cliff, K-L-I-F, 5.70 a.m. in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas.
		Welcome to the program.
		Or should I say, welcome back.
		I guess we're back, really.
		I was on Cliff long ago, and so I'm just sort of back.
		Hello, Dallas, Fort Worth.
		Glad to be there.
		Man, I remember in the old days, you know, I'm an old rocker, so Cliff was like one of the top rockers in the whole U.S. Man, I'll tell you.
		I've still got air checks, old Cliff air checks somewhere.
		All right, let's look at a little bit of news.
		Then we're going to talk about mind control.
		And boy, I cannot think of a better case of mind control than is going on with ISIS.
		When you can remotely influence somebody to not only change what you believe, but go out and kill for that new belief, and you can do that on the internet, that, baby, is mind control, if there ever was such a thing.
		The Sanburn DNO killers had been radicalized, apparently now, for quite some time, had taken target practice at area gun ranges.
		In one instance, just days before the attack that left 14 dead, in a chilling twist, authorities, you get this, also disclosed that a year before the rampage, Syed Farouk's co-workers at the County Health Department had undergone an active shooter training in the very conference room where he and his wife opened fire on them.
		That's right.
		Active shooter training.
		I wonder what that's like in San Bernardino, California.
		My guess is you hide under desks, you hide in closets, you lay down and play dead.
		You know, I've never been to one, so I don't really know what they suggest.
		And I'm sorry, but here is where I'm Second Amendment all the way.
		To me, an active shooter training would be how the hell to shoot back.
		Have a gun to shoot back.
unidentified		Don't go down like a lamb.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That's something I believe in very strongly.
		My political views are, you know, all over the place.
		I'm liberal in some areas.
		I'm very conservative in some areas.
		I'm constitutional in most of them.
		And that's it.
		Active shooter training.
		Learn how to shoot back.
		That's what I'd say.
		It's commentary.
		Syria on Monday accused the U.S.-led coalition of bombing an army camp in the eastern part of the country, killing three Syrian soldiers, wounding 13.
		But a senior U.S. military official said the Pentagon is certain that the strike was from a Russian warplane.
		The dispute over the deadly airstrike underscored the increasingly chaotic skies over Syria as various powers hit targets in the war-ravaged country.
		I'm telling you, it's like LAX on a bad day there.
		Our planes, European planes, Germans, French, British, Russian, American.
		Yeah, nothing can go wrong there, huh?
		And then about the middle of the day, Donald Trump just, you know, threw everything up in the air, as he is inclined to do frequently.
		Donald Trump called Monday for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States, an idea swiftly condemned by his rival GOP candidates for president and other Republicans as well.
		The proposed ban would apply to immigrants and visitors alike.
		So no more Muslims.
		What do you say?
		Until the U.S. government, the Congress, figures out what's going on.
		Here's what I think.
		Of course, it is a million miles from being anywhere close to PC politically correct, right?
		Donald is not politically correct.
		It's probably not constitutional either.
		I'm not sure about that, but I doubt it.
		And yet, I think today a lot of Americans are probably saying privately in their own homes, yeah, you know, yeah.
		And this is how Donald has had luck.
		He says what everybody's thinking, but afraid to say.
		You know, if you say something like that, then let's say you're a bigot.
		You're helping ISIS.
		You might as well be paid by ISIS.
		I heard it all, right?
		So it's not said out loud.
		That's how PC we have become in America.
		It's not said aloud.
		But in the private in homes, people are saying, yeah, baby.
		You know, it's got people scared and for good reason.
		Of course it's not all Muslims.
		Not even most or many.
		But it's a Threat to the homeland, a direct now threat, right?
		Every now and then I get to read a little bit of good news, rarely, mind you.
		Global carbon dioxide emissions may be dropping ever so slightly this year, spurred by a dramatic plunge in the Chinese pollution, according to a surprisingly new, very surprising study released Monday.
		The unexpected dip could either be a temporary blip or true the true thing, the only true hope really that the world is about to turn the corner on carbon pollution as climate talks continue in Paris.
		So that was a little good news for the climate talks, I guess, right?
		And then I thought this was hilarious.
		This comes from AP, and I'll read it as is, pretty much.
		Two Fox News contributors were Sunday for using inappropriate language about President Barack Obama while discussing his speech on terrorism the night before.
		What they said Peters, let's see.
		I guess I better read the whole thing, all right?
		I usually don't do that.
		The analyst, former U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters and actress Stacey Dash were each ordered off the air for two weeks.
		Peters was appearing on the Fox Business Network program, hosted by Stuart Barney.
		When he was asked his reaction to the president's speech, he said he didn't like it.
		Quote, this guy is such a total pussy.
		It's stunning.
		Peters said.
		Really?
		He got booted off the air for two weeks for saying that?
		Well, I thought that was a norm over at Fox.
		All right.
		Enough of that.
		Neil Sanders, who's coming up, holds a master's degree in film studies.
	Studied psychology and media production for his BA honors.
	Is a qualified hypnotherapist and past life regressionist.
	Boy, am I going to be asking about that.
	Neil is considered an expert on mind control, which is supposed to be the topic, and has been studying the history of this dark art and its application by military and government intelligence agencies across the globe for many years.
	He's appeared on a lot of TV shows, made numerous radio appearances in Europe and the U.S., to bring the subject of mind control to the attention of the public.
	Neil is also the author of Your Thoughts Are Not Your Own, Volumes 1 and 2.
	Now, isn't that a little bit disturbing?
	Hearing that your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen, are not your own.
	They were formed, ignited, thought of, passed on, distributed, propagandized to you, and now you think that that's what you think because of them.
	They're controlling your mind.
	So, coming up in a moment all the way from Great Britain, not sure where he is in Great Britain, we'll find out.
	But he sounds great on Skype.
	So we're going to be discussing, well, a lot of things.
	Mind control.
	If ISIS is not the best example of it, I don't know what would be.
	From the high desert, I'm Art Bell, and this is Midnight in the Desert, raging in the nighttime.
unidentified		Midnight in the Desert
		The clock strikes 12, and Midnight in the Desert is pounding Packets Your Way on the Dark Matter Digital Network.
		To call the show, please direct your finger digits to dial 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952.
		Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's see if we can reach out across Green and then out across the Atlantic Ocean to the other side and get to Britain.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Neil Sanders, welcome to Midnight in the Desert.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Hi, how's it going?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for having me on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're very welcome.
		You sound great, Neil.
		Well, thank you.
		This is an important topic to me, so I'm going to take it in sort of pieces here.
		And the first topic I want to actually address is I've done so much on regressive hypnotherapy and past-life regression that before we launch into the mind control, I'd really like to know what you've done with regard.
		I mean, look, is reincarnation real?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I don't know, to be quite honest.
		I mean, it would be unfair to categorize me as a past-life aggressionist.
		I have done quite a few past-life aggressions.
		I know how to do them.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		That qualifies you.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I beg pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said that qualifies you.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, well, it's not something that I do an awful lot, so I'm not perhaps as qualified as some.
		You know what's very interesting, though, Art, when I first did it, I have to confess that I was a bit sceptical about it.
		I thought all you're going to do is prick the person's imagination and they're going to see essentially what they want to see.
		But that was until I actually started trying them.
		And it's a very, very curious thing because everybody's experience is different.
		Everybody's experience seems to be incredibly detailed.
		But the thing that sort of got it for me, or sort of certainly made me think maybe there's something in this, is that the uniformly, everybody's experience was ridiculously mundane.
		There was never like, I'm a knight on a big white charger, I'm Cleopatra.
		It was none of that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, it makes me suspicious when I hear about a past life regression and you're always Christopher Columbus or somebody like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I expect the mundane, and the other would be very, very rare.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's exactly it.
		And it was the depth of detail that people were reporting and sort of the real all-encompassing feeling of actually being there that is certainly a very interesting experience.
		I've never had it done to myself, but as I say, I've done it a few times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, well, then the question is this, Neil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you consider that you really are taking somebody back into another prior life?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Very possibly.
		What is also possible is that there's some sort of collective memory, what Jung would term as the collective unconscious, and that you're sort of tapping into some other experience.
		I suppose it very much depends on how you view life.
		Do you know what I mean?
		Whether it is all one thing experiencing itself subjectively or whether you are actually sort of a separate channel, I suppose.
		But it's certainly very curious.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't look at it that way.
		I look at it either as true or bunk.
		And I think it's true.
		I'm kind of coming around towards sort of leaving in reincarnation.
		So if reincarnation is real, well, then the work done by hypnotherapists who take people back and find another life validates it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I certainly know some people that do, I mean, I don't do this, but what some people do is they do all their therapy in past lives.
		They assume that basically, you know, any problem in this life, so to speak, can be sorted out by going back and sorting out problems on other life lines, so to speak.
		And, you know, I've never, they appear to have great success, so who knows?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to those others that I have spoken to, when a hypnotherapist takes them back to some sort of trauma, maybe the way they died in the last life or major trauma in that life, it then sort of releases karmically them in this life, and it doesn't bother them so much anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You think that's accurate?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Very possibly.
		It's a catharsis that basically happens.
		You release, as I say, the Pentipur emotions.
		That's certainly what you aim to achieve one way or another in every form of hypnosis, or every form of regret that's not forward-positive suggestion.
		You'll get some people that do this thing.
		It's like, imagine yourself in three weeks' time wearing that red dress and you look so thin and everyone loves you and you look fabulous.
		And, you know, that's one method.
unidentified		I don't think of myself that way ever.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But you never know.
unidentified		Maybe we can sort something out.
unidentified		Maybe we can sort something out of the door.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's morning there, right, Neil?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It is, I'm afraid.
		It's desperately early here.
		How early?
		Apologies if I'm a bit scattered.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Actually, I was going to compliment you on your sense of humor for, what, five o'clock in the morning or something?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is five o'clock here.
unidentified		Well, it's about 20 past now, but coffee and whatever.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		But, oh, well, thank you very much.
		Well, hopefully I'll maintain it.
		If you hear me sort of thud, that's just me nodding.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's what I was asking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You've got coffee or whatever.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, I've got stuff.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I'm fine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, stuff.
		All right.
		All right.
		We are going to talk about mind control.
		And so for that purpose, define mind control.
unidentified		Well, I mean, it's a very, very broad spectrum, really.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I mean, anything that causes you to change your perspective or act in a way that would not be your own preferred way of acting could be defined as mind control.
		I mean, in the realm of sort of, you know, military application, MK, ultra-social control and that sort of thing, it basically falls into four subjects.
		The first would be tooth serums, the search for some sort of mystical drug or potion or powder or whatever that can basically render somebody completely open in an interrogation scenario.
unidentified		The second would be the flip side to that, which is well let's not go past that one yet.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on.
		You said they can give a drug that will render somebody absolutely open.
		In other words, there is nothing they would not tell you.
		Is that really true?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, there's certain drugs that were tried.
		I mean, this was the foundation of all the American entries and the English entries into my control.
		I mean, the English were trying this in 1943 at least in places like Egypt during wartime.
		And then the Navy started Operation Charter in 1947.
		And they used all sorts of things, ranging from getting people, something as sort of unsophisticated as getting people addicted to heroin and then refusing.
		You know, like in the French Connection 2, basically, we're not going to give you this unless you start talking.
		And then other things would, you know, putting people on high amphetamines and stuff like that.
		Then there's a lot of other drugs that we use that sort of open you up, make you a bit more suggestible, things like scopalamine and sodium pentathol and sodium ametol.
		But there was, I mean, it's a strange one because you can only really go off the sort of the release and declassify documents.
		And the majority of them basically say, well, unfortunately, we never really got to the end of this, and there was no meaningful results.
		But to be quite honest, you would put that anyway.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, when you look at the media, a lot of TV shows and movies, they bring forth this elixir in a needle, stab it into somebody, and they just say anything that the person, the interrogator, wants to know.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, there's certainly examples of experiments where this was certainly tried.
		Some were very useful, some were not.
		What's very strange is, just going by the documents, the best method of getting information from people was actually hypnosis.
		Now, that's a bit of a loaded statement because I couldn't get that information from you, but apparently the hypnotists that were attached to the projects were able to.
		But it certainly suggests that there's something missing in the notes.
		You wouldn't be able to do this just by using suggestion.
		You would have to sort of enlist a certain amount of trauma into that.
		But, you know, we can come on to hypnosis later.
		But certainly things like scopalamine, I mean, they use scopalamine in South America.
		They call it devil's breath.
		They grind it up and they'll blow it in your face and then get you to go and empty your bank account and you'll dutifully do it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wow.
		Wow.
		Okay, so then it will make somebody do virtually anything.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I mean, how effective it is, you know, there's a certain amount of befuddling with all these drugs, so how effective it is at sort of.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, a better question is if that really does as you just described, and we know about that, then what are the ones that we don't know about that the CIA has?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do they do?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, exactly.
		I mean, they tested literally hundreds and hundreds of drugs, like the whole list of every sort of available and unavailable narcotic was tried, you know, some very, very exotic things like STP and BZ.
		I mean, that was initially, again, how the Americans got involved in the sort of experiments with LSD and such like that.
		Because initially, again, they felt that it might be useful as a truth serum.
		Later, they decided that it would be more helpful as a sort of an incapacitant, something to...
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Gee, you're not suggesting that Donald Trump was so injected prior to his speech today.
		You probably haven't even seen it yet.
		You're in England.
		You don't know what he said unless you've watched the news.
		Anyway, that was a joke.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Nobody knows what is going on with Donald Trump.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'll tell you, actually, it's very interesting.
		It really is interesting.
		Donald Trump said today that all Muslims, and I mean all, visitors and immigrants alike, should be barred from coming into America until Congress figures out what's going on.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, isn't that throwing the baby out with the bathwater?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I tend to think that Donald Trump has a tendency to take very, very complicated issues and uses rhetoric and lowest common denominator politics to grossly, grossly oversimplify things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The thing is, though, Neil, it works.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Of course it does, because basically what we've got at the minute is a politics of fear.
		I mean, I don't know whether you want to come onto this at all, but basically, fear is beneficial for countries.
		Of course, he's very, very strange, but basically it drives the population to a very childlike state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yes.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Sorry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said, oh, yes.
		I mean, absolutely.
		Look, America right now is full of fear.
		And I know in Europe the people are too.
		A lot of fear going around.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		What's strange is that basically your sort of go-to position is to go to an authority figure and ask them for help.
		What's even more curious is that Tabistock Institute, the Tabistock Institute was a psychological think tank that basically came out of the studies of shell shock during the First World War.
		It's English, but it's started by a gentleman called Hugh Crichton Miller, John Rawlings Rees, and then Kurt Lewin, who was involved in both the Frankfurt School and the starting of the OSS.
		Basically, the Frankfurt School went on to found certain things that you might have heard of, like MIT, Stanford Research Institute, National Institute of Hypnosis, Esalen, RAND, Wharton School of Economics.
		It helps with blue-chip companies like Unilever, BP, IBM, CBS, MBC, Shell, Hewlett-Packard, the FBI, the CIA, Naval Intelligence, Department of Defense, U.S. State Department.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I get it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		What was the main point of Tavistock?
		Tavistock institutes what they called FutureShock.
		FutureShock was the methodology that they devised and recommended to all companies and governments that they were helping with.
		What it involves is a huge amount of stress that comes from outside points, usually terror and that sort of thing, in a gladio-style operation, in order to reduce the population's thinking capacity.
		It reduces them to what's called a tabula rosa, which is a blank state.
		It's just curious that this tactic appears to happen, or this tactic that is admitted and documented.
		If one were to take a step back, certainly you could overlay that on today's scenarios.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You certainly could, and we will, I think.
		You're right.
		Fear is just a great motivator, and it's really in play right now.
		That's really why I thought, Neil, that tonight we should try and understand how ISIS, reaching out from Syria with internet propaganda, can manage to take people who are good Muslims and slowly but surely change them and
		radicalize them into they are prepared to go out and, sacrificing their own life, take as many lives as they can.
		I can't think of a wilder scenario in my own mind than that.
		My God, you're just reaching out, using social, nothing more than social media, to take somebody who's a relatively normal person and turn them into a killing monster.
		I mean, that really is What we're talking about.
		Hold tight, Neil.
unidentified		You look like an angel, walk like an angel, talk like an angel, fall like a walk.
		I know you have a better view.
		Midnight in the desert doesn't screen calls.
		We trust you.
		But remember, the NSA, well, you know.
		To call the show, please dial 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-CALLART.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, so I sometimes wonder if people are actually listening to me.
		Somebody named Frantic Rose.
		Really frantic?
		Or is it Frankie?
		I'm frantic, I think.
		It sounds frantic to me.
		Says, I'm unsubscribing art because you're basically like my kind of racist Fox News-watching grandpa.
		Outdated views and supporter of a dangerous fascist.
		Wake up, man.
		Really?
		All I did was repeat the news of the day.
		And in terms of Fox, all I did was comment on the guys that got in trouble on Fox.
		I'm not a Fox watcher.
		I just came across the AP.
		People, I think, don't know where I am politically, but if they think they detect where I may be politically, I go crazy.
		So does she think I'm a Trump supporter or not a Trump supporter?
		Just because I commented on the news.
		Oh, well, it does not matter.
		Back now to Great Britain and Neil Sanders.
		And so, Neil, we were talking about ISIS and how they can reach across the world on the internet, no drugs involved, and convince people to kill.
		I mean, my God.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I mean, there are, I mean, certain questions should be asked about.
		They have an incredible PR mechanism, ISIS.
		They have t-shirts that you can buy, websites, you know, magazines.
		There's an ISIS magazine that's produced.
		Did you know that?
		They have Twitter feeds and such like this.
unidentified		I do.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I know all that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It begs certain questions.
		I'll tell you, the only thing that I could liken them to is the PR firm Noton and Hill.
		That's the only other firm that I've seen that has had such successful and far-ranging PR.
		I mean, for crying out loud, ISIS gets into more homes than Justin Bieber.
		It's ridiculous.
		Like, they're really utilizing the modern day things.
		But that begs a lot of questions because you can shut down websites.
		You can find out where servers are based, IP addresses and such like that.
		For them to have such a huge and apparent and overt mechanism is silly.
		I think it's.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so here in America we have the First Amendment.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm curious: are ISIS sites in Great Britain barred?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		To be honest, I couldn't tell you.
		I've never really been on them.
		I would imagine.
		I don't know, to be quite honest.
		I really don't know.
		I mean, obviously, some people are getting onto them somehow.
		But again, I haven't looked myself, to be quite honest.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		I was just curious.
		I know your government is a little bit tighter Than ours in a lot of regards, and that might be one of them.
		It could be stopped.
		I believe it could be stopped.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah, I do.
		I think it's very strange.
		I mean, you could even look at sort of like the utilization of Twitter and certain elements of the Arab Spring and such like that.
		For example, in Iran, it was proven that the CIA were trying to foment riots for one reason or another, but with the use of Twitter and social media and such like that.
		So we're now in a cyber world, basically, cyber espionage as well.
		And by that, I don't mean in space.
		So yes, again, it's very, very strange.
		But again, Hilton and Knoll, by the way, is the PR firm that was hired by the American government to convince us to go to war against Iraq the first time, where they got the girl out and pretended that she was Q80 and that she'd seen Iraqi soldiers murdering babies, dragging them out of incubators.
		And it transpired that she was actually a good friend of President Bush.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I remember that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		For some reason, he didn't recognize her.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I say, I assume, because his vision was clouded with tears.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that whole thing was filled with lies and lies.
		Oh, sure.
		And that would relate to a lot of the wars that we've jumped into over our history in the U.S. No question about that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, I'll put it this way.
		Okay.
		What's certainly strange about ISIS as a terrorist organization is in one sense they're incredibly PR savvy.
		As you say, they're able to recruit people and stuff like that.
		And yet, time and time again, they make bad, bad decisions.
		Decisions that would draw us back into Iraq, decisions that would draw us back into Libya, decisions that would basically result in their death, ultimately.
		Now, it is certainly curious that all these decisions that are made by this completely separate terrorist organization certainly seem to advance the foreign policy and the desired foreign policy of England and America.
		I'll give you an example.
		As early as 2011, we were trying to invade Syria.
		We were using, do you remember a thing called Syria Girl?
		Where basically there was a, maybe you didn't get it in America, there was a blog that was going on in a newspaper in England of this poor, repressed girl that was living in Syria, and she was constantly in threat of being murdered by the Assad regime because she was secretly a lesbian.
		Now, it transpired that not only is that not representative of how lesbians are treated in Syria, but it also transpired that not only was this person not living in Syria, but there were a gentleman, a CIA agent, living in Scotland called Tom McMaster, whose wife was involved in some firm that was trying to redevelop.
		So she was known.
		She had a master's degree in Syrian economics or something like that, and she was also connected to intelligence.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So how are lesbians treated in Syria?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, as far as I'm aware, better than in certain other places.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Really?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		As far as I'm aware.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And does that apply to male homosexuals as well?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I don't entirely know, but I've heard, yes.
		But again, I'll be working on received wisdom.
		I've heard it's not as bad as in some places.
		then we use the media to sort of put out the idea that there's a popular uprising against Assad, all of which is proven to be false later.
		What's strange about that is it's identical to the failed coup that the CIA attempted in Venezuela in 2002.
		Exactly the same techniques were used and were later exposed and admitted to.
		So it's certainly strange.
		So this is the thing about something like ISIS.
		Well, I think that's the utilization of the fear.
		It makes you think of it in a vacuum, and you can't think of it in a vacuum.
		Because now here's another thing.
		Why would anybody join something as crazy as ISIS?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's move one 10 miles an hour at a time.
		Let's go back to the Assad government.
		Do you think the U.S. is unreasonably demonizing the Assad government?
		Is that...
		Well, look, we, like every other nation on earth, we propagandize, right?
unidentified		Of course.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		To support our actions.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is the Syrian government, the Assad government, not the bad guy or guys that you or that the media makes them out to be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that what you're saying?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		If you want to really break it down to as simplistic as that, then that's correct.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It's not as bad as it is being made out to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I see.
		And the Russians right now, of course, support Assad, and they are bombing mainly the rebels that are fighting Assad.
		You agree that's going on?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah.
		Well, that's certainly what is being reported is going on.
		Again, what I think you've got is a proxy war.
		And I don't think it's contained to war.
		I think it's connected to broader gas pipelines and economic structures.
		Essentially, America looks like it's going to lose itself as the major hyperpower.
		And so it needs to sort of claw back any incentive to get dollars into the petrochemicals market that it can.
		That's what, in my opinion, I think you've got to look at the Ukraine as well.
		I think basically the Ukraine looked like it was going to leave the European Union.
		And that would have been very detrimental, again, to this concept of getting American petrodollars into the world to keep America strong in the global sort of market sense.
		And so I suspect that was used to sort of almost distract Russia a little bit, because obviously the Ukraine-Russia thing has a certain historical bent that also goes into it.
		And also, again, to give you the idea of painting Russia as a bad guy.
		I mean, we've been using things like that band Pussy Riot to try and paint Russia as the most terrible Places.
		Do you know they were sponsored by the American Department of Defense?
		Like, they're not a real band.
		They've only ever produced one song, such as it is, and it was financed by the American Department of Defense.
unidentified		I mean, how more blatant can you be?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, okay.
		I'll go along with that.
		I don't know if I want to discuss pussy riot, but I do want to discuss.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		They're really not worth it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, they're mostly not.
		But I do want to discuss what you think is going to happen in Syria.
		Do you think the Russians, I know we've been putting on the PR, I've seen it since the crash of that plane, even early on before we understood that there was a bomb on it, and I'm not still sure about the bomb thing, but the U.S. was saying, well, this will turn Russia around and they'll start bombing ISIS.
		And boy, we were heavy on that.
unidentified		I saw that as U.S. I beg pardon?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It was a little on the nose.
		It seemed a bit obvious to me.
		It seemed like a slightly clumsy blackmail attempt.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, just a bit.
unidentified		I saw it that way.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It's one of those things really, isn't it?
		Because regardless, this is what it's all about.
		This is what this fear is about.
		In my view, I think to a degree, this is what the proliferation and the constant advertising of ISIS is.
		I mean, you know, they've committed dispicable acts.
		There's nothing that's going to take place.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's what I want to ask about, Neil.
		Their propaganda mainly consists of pretty horrible things.
		I mean, showing people getting their heads cut off, burning pilots alive, shooting people in the back of the head as they're lined up kneeling on the ground.
		That's a lot of their propaganda, Neil.
		And I'm wondering how that translates in people's brains to, oh, boy, I want a piece of that.
unidentified		I know.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's very, very strange, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You could.
		I mean, I'll tell you for why, right?
		Certainly in my view, it's the same reason that anyone would join an army, and this is not mentioned in a disrespectful way, but the way that anyone would join a sort of a group or a club or a cult or anything like that.
		Well, there's two things, right?
		Nobody joins an organisation, right, going, oh, I'm going to be the worst, or maybe gangs, like, you know, drug-selling gangs.
		But nobody tends to join an extremist organization to say, you know, I want to be the bad guy.
		People use mental gymnastics to justify their position.
		Whatever they're doing, it's justified because, you know, ends justify the means.
		They're going against something worse.
		So you've got to understand that.
		Again, these things don't exist in a vacuum.
		For whatever reason, they feel that their actions are justified.
		And then, well, why would people join a court?
		Because it gives people security.
		It gives people a simplified version of the world.
		It tells them what the world does, what's down, what's left, what's right.
		And it also shows their position in it, which is incredibly psychologically comforting.
		So that would be the psychological mechanism as to why people join ISIS.
		The sort of political manifestation of it, I can only assume is that they feel that the ISIS mission is justified for whatever reason.
		I assume they are fighting against what will be considered Western imperialism.
		I can't see any justification for that.
		You know, you can't fight fire.
		But I don't want to come across as an ISIS supporter is what I'm trying to say.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Probably that's a good idea, not to come across that way.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, absolutely.
		I mean, you know, it's monstrous.
		Using terrorism for any means is absolutely monstrous.
		And, yeah, it's despicable.
		There's no justification for it at all.
		What's interesting is who does it ultimately benefit?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, let me ask you a question and just flush this out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Are you personally also upset with or disgusted by American imperialism?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Not just American imperialism.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I think the foreign policy of a lot of nations is despicable.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is that including yours?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		And I think a lot of what we do is couched in flowery rhetoric and it uses suspiciously fortuitous world events to cover up what is essentially going to be of economic benefit to the invading country.
unidentified		Yeah, I'm sure that's true.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And we can look back to what we did in Iraq as the reason for ISIS being where it is right now.
		And I do look at it that way.
		And boy, what a mess that was.
		However, there's no saying he was a good guy.
		And there's really no saying Assad's a good guy either.
		Now, they're very, very strong hands in their country when they have control.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		But this is the point, it's not as simple as good guys and bad guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, it isn't.
		And I'm willing to say this much.
		I'm not willing to, I think, go as far as you go, but sometimes it seems like these bad guys, these iron hands, are what a country needs.
		It may well be that not every country is meant for the kind of freedom that we have here in America.
		They're just simply not ready for it.
		And when you eliminate that iron hand, you get something worse.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, you're always going to get a period of, like, after only Emancipatory Act where people go crazy.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I mean, you could compare that to, I imagine the first week that weed was legal in Colorado, there was a lot of people that were throwing up.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I just did a show on that, Neil.
		And nothing at all bad happened in Colorado.
		In fact, the crime rate actually has gone down.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, no, no.
		What I mean is you'll have a bit of a blowout, like when something suddenly becomes available, like when you go.
		Oh, yeah, it's a lot of fun.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sure there were long lines, if that's what you're asking.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long lines.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I beg your pardon?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Long lines.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean long lines?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's in front of the pot shops in Colorado.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
unidentified		Yeah.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		That's what I mean.
		So, yes, of course you're going to see some sort of chaotic scenario.
		But I don't know if that justifies despotism.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Right.
		So again, how is ISIS, with these horrible videos, able to convince young people in this country, young Muslims, to turn from the center of what is their ideology to a new one and then randomly kill?
		That is as much of a mind control at a distance as I could imagine no matter what we talk about.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
		Absolutely.
		It's very effective.
		But it uses the same techniques as I say, as joining the army, as selling Nike trainers.
		It's that inclusory thing.
		It's like, I want to be part of something.
		And the whole point is it's positioned in such a way, I would imagine that you've got to be pretty damn desperate to want to get into that sort of thing.
		So, you know, like a lot of cult mentalities, I imagine that they're picking on a lot of weaknesses in human psyches and stuff like that.
		Getting people to blame existential problems on one thing.
		Oh, you know, my life's not going particularly well, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and this bloody American imperialism.
		You know what?
		It's all down to American imperialism.
		And then you'll channel it in that way, I would assume.
		That's the thing.
		You've also got to appreciate that a lot of these people are coming from sort of war-torn areas where they've got a very limited view of the world.
		And so they would position themselves as freedom fighters.
		Incorrectly, I would hasten to add.
		But that's how it can be done.
		This is how you convince people of things, right?
		Walter Lippmann said, how do you control people?
		Well, you paint the pictures in people's heads because people work.
		I'll put it this way.
		You find a lump of yellow metal.
		You assume it's gold.
		You would react as if you found gold.
		If you've never seen a map or a television and somebody tells you, don't go that way, you'll fall off the edge of the earth, you're not going to go that way because you work on the received wisdom of the pictures that are painted in your head.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do interview people about the edge of the earth where you fall off to, Neil.
		That's a whole other story.
		Hold on, please, Neil.
		We're at a short break.
		It's two minutes.
unidentified		We'll be right back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		This is Midnight in the Desert.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		Coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness.
		This is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Now, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Somebody writes in the wormhole.
		Thought this was going to be about mind control tonight.
		Really?
		You mean you don't consider what ISIS is doing to the people that it somehow controls from the other side of the earth?
		Well, not quite, but pretty nearly the other side of the earth, right?
		With messages on the internet that take them from being a moderate Muslim to being an extremist Muslim who will go out and kill randomly because they believe that's what's wanted.
		And that's what God wants.
		That's what they're doing.
		And if that's not mind control, then I would hate to see real mind control.
		I mean, that's serious stuff.
		I have no idea how you convert somebody like that.
		But apparently, if you've got enough millions of people, some of them on edge, some of them ready to grasp the kind of stuff that ISIS sends, I don't know.
		Earlier on CNN, see, I do watch CNN, they were saying, well, look, the media refers to these, in quotes here, young masterminds.
		Young masterminds.
		Like the knife attack there in London.
		They call them a young mastermind.
		Well, that phrase has an effect on young men who might not feel they're the masterminds of the world, you know, with the highest IQs.
		They might decide, well, to be a mastermind, all I need to do is just stab somebody with a knife.
		What about that, Neil?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I think you've nailed it there.
		I think because that's obviously a very grievous mischaracterization.
		Also, you know, the gentleman was just a nutter.
		He wasn't in any way connected by the looks of it to any cell or anything.
		He might have sort of, you know, took up the ideology.
		But again, just to sort of appease that gentleman as well, and to sort of tie back to my previous point, what I was saying about pictures, if you can paint the pictures, you can control perceptions.
		So, for example, in an area like the Middle East, you can explain the, certainly to somebody whose only knowledge of America is what's coming to him from his peers and from what he might have viewed, you can paint them as evil.
		You can paint the world in the way that you want, and then people will react in the way.
		The other thing is just that basically the most effective propaganda is, how do you get people to kill for you?
		You say that that other person is going to kill you, right?
		And to be quite honest, again, in certain areas of the Middle East, that would not be a particularly difficult argument to sell to a young gentleman.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but how do you sell it To some guy and some girl in San Bernardino or Redlands or wherever it was.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It comes to the next point.
		There's a certain thing whereby you get a certain psychological comfort, and as you said before, a certain amount of self-credit.
		You get a certain amount of power by associating yourself with this broader group, this huge group.
		What happens then is a process called deindividuation, whereby basically you sort of hypnotically almost take on the attributes of the group.
		It's like to take it to a sort of micro level.
		That's why perfectly sensible people get caught up in like hockey riots or whatever.
		Do you know what I mean?
		Because you go along with the masses and you get swept up with it.
		The problem is when you get into a group like that, you feel you take on responsibility.
		So you would feel guilty or you would feel if you did not act, then you are not helping in the situation, basically.
		You're proliferating the situation.
		I'm not saying again that that is correct, but what I'm saying is that you would put somebody in a position where they feel that this other ideological point wishes to kill them.
		And the only way that they can stop that is to get in first.
		To draw back to my previous point, I don't think these people, they obviously were, but I don't think they think of themselves as bad.
		I think that they think of themselves as soldiers.
		And ultimately what they're doing is not as bad as the enemy.
		And I think that's how you convince people.
unidentified		I agree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I agree.
		But it's a lot of this very, very violent ISIS propaganda that seems to turn people's minds.
		And that brings me back to the young mastermind's comment.
		Or maybe just, I don't know, a sign of the times that they're able to do this.
		But in the past, horrible depictions of violence wouldn't exactly be something that would draw people to it, just quite the opposite, away from it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It's the internet age, though.
		People are desensitized by the internet.
		And also, when you're viewing something across the internet, it's not quite the same as in real life.
		You have a separation.
		There's a certain amount of bravado.
		I remember the internet first came out and these gore sites were there.
		That's what lads used to go on.
		And the gorier the better because it's like showing that you've got kahonas.
		I can stand this and stuff like that.
		So there's a certain amount of machismo and proving oneself that goes into all these things.
		Again, he's tried and tested psychological methods of mind control and make you feel inferior and then bomb you with positive emotions to sort of bond you to a group.
		Once you've bonded to a group, you feel indebted to that group.
		So you would do all sorts of things to prove your allegiance and so that you don't risk getting kicked out of that group because you've put so much psychological investment.
		This is me.
		This is part of my psyche.
		This is what defines me as a person.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Even though I don't fully understand how they can do what they can do with what they've got, I acknowledge it's working.
		So let me ask you this.
		How do you fight that?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		How do you fight an ideology?
		You never fight an ideology.
		This is the point.
		You could only fight through education, I suppose.
		But again, this is the problem.
		It's not as simple as that.
		It's not as straightforward as that.
		It is a multifaceted thing.
		You're going to get some people who are hardcore members of ISIS.
		You're going to get some people who are sort of wannabes that basically, again, take that on board as some sort of bolstering of their psyche.
		And then you're going to get all sorts of different disparate sort of groups.
		There's not just ISIS, there's al-Nusra, there's the Free Syrian army that's there, there's al-Qaeda still.
		There's a lot of groups.
		And the other thing is, Art, that you've got to appreciate, a lot of these are driven by mercenaries.
		Like, provably, there's a lot of mercenaries who just get paid to kill.
		And a lot of people are profiting from the continuation of a combat situation.
		Like, you've got to keep buying those bullets from somewhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe that Britain has been named as the next target of ISIS, right?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, according to our government, yes.
		And that may well happen.
		But again, you know, this begs into all sorts of questions about who it is that's actually, again, benefiting from these acts in the first place.
		You have to be suspicious when you sort of have knowledge of like the Gladio projects and stuff in Europe, where they were basically hiring fascist groups to kill civilians and blame it on the communists.
		And this was beneficial to NATO was doing this to proliferate their own wants economically.
		America has done this, presided over genocide in South America numerous times.
		And often you use terror groups because essentially you want to, it's a proxy war.
		I think what is interesting about the whole point of terrorism is the fear that it creates.
		Now, if you were saying about what can we do about this, I know this is very strange, but you've not got to be afraid and knee-jerk.
		You've got to look at things rationally, and you've got to look at things from a step back.
		Because when you're in a position of fear, you're going to fight or flight.
		You make black and white decisions.
		You don't have the time to ruminate and to go, well, what's the most sensible option?
		More often than not, you go running to an authority figure.
		I mean, again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful about this, but you seem very impressed by the fact that the internet has managed to.
		But I'll give you another example.
		Do you know Top Gun, the film Top Gun?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		One showing of that caused a million young men to go and join the Air Force.
		This is the point of perceptions, presentation, presentation of powerful entities that you can become a part of.
		You could join that.
		You could be Tom Cruise.
		You could be Val Kilmer.
		Imagine that.
		This is the same psychological thing that would be going on in the minds of somebody that's joining a terrorist organisation.
		But again, it's the same try and test the tactics.
		Edward Bernays basically said as early as the proliferation of the television, that this is the most effective way that we can spread propaganda.
		We can Get messages instantaneously.
		That's the thing about the internet.
		Messages are instantaneous.
		And because of the culture of the internet, you often don't have time to check.
		You've got to pin your colours to a mast.
		You've got to stake your claim and say, Yes, I'm with this.
		No, I'm against that.
		Immediately.
		And before you know it, you're in an argument with four or five different people, and people are saying, which faction do you want to join?
		Well, an extension of that would be a political ideology.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, absolutely.
		Look, these message boards, for example, Neil, if you study a message board, I think it's a study in itself.
		I mean, it will start out, and in the very beginning, everybody is, even though they're behind pseudonames, they're relatively polite to each other as the site builds and acting in a civilized manner.
		However, given a few months and more members, there will develop, without a doubt, and there is no exception to this, a horrible fight in which one faction will be pitted against another.
		Now, that's just a microcosm, but it's like the rest of the world.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		I mean, it's accentuated by the Internet because of two things.
		Basically, one, you've got that separation of screens.
		So it's not like really being there.
		You can say something that you wouldn't say to somebody's face.
		Two, you've got an audience.
		Even though you're on your own, you've got an audience of peers that you don't want to come across as a punk, do you?
		Like, do you know what I mean?
		And you've got to impress these people or psychologically.
		It's a very, very strange thing.
		Like trolling somebody or putting a negative comment on the internet.
		To do it, you just go, mah, done.
		You never think about it again.
		But the person that's receiving that has to read that and take it in and stuff like that.
		And it's like a sort of missile that's been launched into their private world.
		It's like a drive-by heckling almost.
		And then you're sort of left with all that wave of indignation and nowhere to get it.
		The internet itself, when you come to things like that, is terrible because basically all it does is build narcissism, a sort of strange smiling depression where you've got these narcissists who are feeling inadequate because of the conversations that they're having and everybody else basically hyping up their existence, using the best photographs and such like that.
		And again, praise on people's insecurities.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All this said, all this said, and what's going on in the internet, again, from a mind control perspective or a propaganda perspective, if you want to look at it that way, how do we combat what they're doing?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There has got to be a mind control solution for what they're doing.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, there's lots.
		I mean, you could wipe the minds.
		I mean, how much do you want to get?
		I mean, in what sense?
unidentified		Are you going to change these people's ideology?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In the same sense, Neil, that they're getting convinced to kill.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		There's got to be a way to convince them that killing is not a good solution, won't lead to anything productive.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, first you'd have to understand their ideology and hope what they want to achieve from it.
		Again, this is the thing.
		You can't just say, you couldn't go up to these people and say, what you're doing is wrong.
		Stop it.
		Because they don't know what it is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You can't say that.
		No.
		But you perhaps could attempt to convince them that terrorism, which is designed to obtain political change, ain't going to work.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I'll flip it around, you are, because it's the same question.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		How could you convince a five-star major general that bombing Syria would be of absolutely no use?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You couldn't, but you couldn't.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, not really.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, there you go.
		Not really.
		But this is the problem.
		Again, that's the point, because people have so very much invested into these ideas that basically it would be exactly the same thing.
		It's a very, very complicated situation, and I don't think it could be solved in a sentence.
		But it would be the same principle.
		Like, somebody that's their entire life in the US military is convinced that what they're doing is the right thing and that this action will ultimately be successful.
		And they're aware of the collateral damage and other clever use of language, which means dead civilians, which again came out of Tavistock, by the way.
		But ultimately, they feel what their actions will be beneficial, will be the right thing to do.
		And this is the problem that you face against a terrorist organisation.
		So you've either got to show them that this is wrong, you've got to...
		Uh...
		You could certainly do that.
		What you could explain is you could show the passages from the Quran that expressly forbid absolutely everything that they're doing.
		But again, you're getting into lots of different things because, again, it's not just a political matter.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, now you're working on it a little bit.
		Right, okay, so now you're working on it at least a little bit.
		That's what I wanted to hear, where mind control can be used from that side to take an ideology that is quite calm and quite peaceful and pick from it individuals and radicalize them and do all this over the internet.
		There's got to be a counter to that in the world of mind control.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		The counter would be basically, as I just said, you know, education and stuff like that.
		The problem that you'd be rubbing up against is how open to that these people are.
		Because, I mean, it would be very much like when you go, again, trying to extricate somebody from a cult.
		You must have seen all these documentaries and stuff where they're trying to sort of get somebody out of, say, Scientology or the moon is or something like that.
		The problem is that basically you're so embedded in something that any outside influence is seen with suspicion.
		You're seen as an attack.
		Well, of course you'd say that.
		Of course you would say that.
		You're the Enemy.
		I expect you to come at me with counter-propaganda, but I don't believe it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Do you think this is out in left field that there is any subliminal messages going on in the ISIS propaganda?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, not really, because I don't think there's any need to do that.
		Because, again, it's based on more sort of tried and tested methods of disaffected people being sold an ideology, being sold a way out of their dismal lives, for want of a better expression.
		So I don't think there's any need for subliminals.
		Interestingly, Harvard has proved that subliminals do work mostly if they're negative.
		There was an experiment where people were told to complete a computer program, and unbeknownst to them, subliminal words were flashed up.
		Some were positive, like joyous, happy, handsome.
		Some were negative, like decrepit, old, diseased, that sort of thing.
		And it was discovered that if you flashed up the negative subliminals, the people found it incredibly difficult to actually get motivated and complete their task.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, as I listen to you, I detect, I don't want to say, a sympathy for ISIS.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I think what I want to say is I think that I detect an understanding on your part of why they do what they do.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, no, not even that.
		I will say that.
		I don't justify it or anything.
		I understand why terrorists join terrorist organizations.
		And because of that, I understand that it's not as straightforward as saying, what is the answer?
		Because basically, it's very much driven by that organization.
		I'll repeat that, basically.
		I have absolutely no sympathies for ISIS, and I have absolutely no sympathies for their cause.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm not asking about sympathies, though.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm asking about understanding.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, again, in the same way that I understand why the IRA formed and can understand their argument, which was vital.
		Again, we could take that argument.
		That was vital to sort of the peace treaty that was eventually brokered by the IRA in England, was an understanding of their demands and negotiation on all sides.
		I don't think that'll work in ISIS's sense because I don't think they're interested.
		But again, if you want to move this further, you need to have an understanding of what their motivations is, what their motivation is, and how you can respond to that.
		And so, yeah, no, I don't have any sympathies towards them at all.
		I understand how terrorist groups form, and I understand how cults draw people in.
		And so I can understand the psychological manifestations of why somebody might join something like that, but I'll just say it's stupid.
		It's absolutely stupid.
		But it's stupid joining a cult as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, our president referred to ISIS as a deaf cult.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I mean, to an extent that's true, but also that's just very catchy copy, isn't it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
unidentified		It is.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Very catchy.
		Deaf cult.
		However, you are likening ISIS to a cult, though, right?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
		Well, again, the psychological manifestations of why somebody would join it.
		But again, I would liken Air Jordans to a cult.
		Why do people wear Air Jordans?
		Because you know that you're better than the person that stood next to you.
		And that's not me.
		This is how advertising works, Art.
		This is basically, if you want to be a great advertiser and understand the psychology of selling products, you need to understand why people join cults.
		Because that's the same thing with a product.
		There's a sliding scale of how seriously you would apply this to yourself, but any product is essentially a bit of a talisman.
		Why would you buy a Mercedes as opposed to what's a very poor car in America?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		At the moment, Volkswagen.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Okay, fine.
		this is the point you know there are certain cultural things that are attached to But there's an idea behind it.
		It's like those terrible, like, people are paying thousands of dollars for those Carnegie West trainers.
		Why?
		Well, because they've got the endorsement, the celebrity endorsement.
		And also, again, basically, if you wear that, you're sending out a message to somebody else.
		Yeah, look at me.
		I've got this.
		I'm better than you in this sense.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I guess.
		I guess that's true.
		So advertising.
		Tell me, just moving backward a little bit, what is your assessment of the Assad regime?
		I thought I heard something there.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't really know.
		Again, I don't imagine it's nearly as bad as we're painting it because we seem to be rather heavy-handedly propagandizing it.
		There are certain bloggers and activists and stuff that are sending videos from inside Syria that paint a very different scenario to what's being painted of him.
		No doubt he's grimy.
		He's a dictator.
		What is curious about it that I find curious is that if there are all these definite reasons to depose him, why do we need to go around the bushes with it?
		Why do we need to hire proxy armies and create situations whereby you're trying to create uprisings and such like that?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, I mean, you can kind of make the same case for Saddam Hussein that he held that country together in a way that nobody else certainly has demonstrated they're capable of doing, including the full U.S. Again, it's complicated because Saddam was a monster.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		There's no doubting that, that he was an absolutely clear.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And Assad on the monster scale?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Where is Assad?
unidentified		I couldn't really tell you because at the minute it's too mired in propaganda.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I would imagine I would be incredibly surprised if he was in any way clean.
		Like, I'm sure that he's got a huge amount of skeletons in his closet.
		But then again, Iran-Contra, you know, El Salvador, places like that.
		You show me a leader of a country and I'll show you somebody that's got skeletons in their closet.
		Even Obama's been killing people in Pakistan illegally with drone strikes, children and civilians.
		So again, it's sliding scale.
		It's not as straightforward as, is this guy bad?
		Let's get him.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, so he's not as bad as Saddam, in your mind?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Like, I wouldn't imagine so.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, I'm willing to accept, Neil, that we're propagandized because I've lived out of the United States as many adult years as I have lived in it.
		And so when I watch the news in foreign countries, I fully understand that we are propagandized.
		I mean, there's simply no question about it.
		No question about it.
		I know we are.
		But some of it is true.
		We're not the best.
		We do evil, black things many times.
		But we also have some things that we do that are sort of above average, freedoms that are above average when compared with freedoms around the world.
		So we're not perfect, but we're better than a lot.
		And not as good as some of the other countries out there, I might add.
		There's more freedom in other countries than there is here.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I suggest you say that, because America's got more prisoners per capita than any country in the entire world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		We absolutely do.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Which is interesting, because where are the drugs coming from?
unidentified		Hold it, a minute.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Are they coming from Afghat?
unidentified		Iraq?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Chicago?
		You know, El Chapo.
		You do know that the ATF basically gave El Chapo free reign to run as much drugs as he wanted into Chicago in exchange for certain information against other people.
		Now, you could say that they bargained with the devil.
		What you could say also is like in places like Compton, what you're doing is you're gentrifying the population and ensuring that you've got a huge slave labor market in the prison industrial complex.
		What do the people make in prisons now?
		Missiles.
		Circuit boards for missiles.
		It seems to be a self-feeding industry.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it is.
unidentified		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		Yes, okay.
		So you have, I think the audience can tell from listening to you, you have a view of America that would probably not consistent with most Americans who have been propagandized by their own government for a long time.
		Fair to say?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, not at all.
		I have a view of American and English foreign policy.
		I happen to think America is a fabulous place, and on a few times that I've been lucky enough to be there, I've found it to be nothing but wonderfully courteous and fantastic, and it makes England look a bit poor, to be quite honest.
		So, no, I really, really like America.
unidentified		I'm suspicious of its foreign policy, but I'm suspicious of Russia's foreign policy.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I'm suspicious of France's foreign policy.
		I'm suspicious of Israel's foreign policy and the UK's foreign policy.
		What I would go back to when you're saying about Assad being bad and stuff like that, you're absolutely right.
		I'm sure you could make a case that painting him was terrible.
		You could make that same case in Bahrain.
		You could make that same case in Saudi Arabia.
		Why aren't we?
		And so that would be my point about propaganda, is that it's selective.
		It's selective.
		And that's, again, draws back to the concept of mind control and painting pictures in people's heads and making connections and forcing people to make choices based on limited information and forcing that decision very, very quickly.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The British Empire, of course, has sort of been in decline for a long time.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Then came the American years and even Empire, if you want to call it that.
		And now it would appear that we are either leveling out or in decline.
		Would that be your view?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Very possibly, yeah.
		I mean, it certainly looks like that.
		Well, it certainly looks basically economically certain powers like China and Russia are creeping along.
		And America is perhaps not the single hyperpower anymore.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I would love to discuss a little bit more about Syria with you because I see the mix in Syria, Neil, as the devil's mix indeed.
		And no matter how you view it, with all these different countries flying jets and with anti-missile stuff all set up by the Russians and all the rest of that, I see almost an inevitable collision that could result in the next world war.
		I'm not saying it's going to happen.
		I'm saying the ingredients are all there.
		It's like they're almost starting to come to a boil.
		Not quite, but you know, those little tiny bubbles you get before a full boil.
		Kind of like that.
		I'm Art Bell.
unidentified		On my mind.
		From the Kingdom of Nigh in the high desert, this is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Please ring Arts Bell at 1-952-225-5278.
		That's 1-952-Call Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It is.
		My guest all the way from Great Britain is Neil Sanders, and he's doing a great job.
		The subject for tonight was mind control, and I think a lot of people thought, well, you're probably going to talk about some of these old programs, you know?
		LSD, when you're least expecting it.
		Some of the programs like the Phoenix program, I will ask about that.
		But, you know, as I thought about this program before it started tonight, I thought if somebody can give me a better example of mind control than ISIS is doing on these people over here and over there in Britain, and they're doing it remotely with this produced stuff they've got.
		If there's a better example of mind control out there, I don't know what it is.
		And this one's pretty important.
		So anyway, Neil, welcome back.
		Just one quick question for you on Syria.
		I've been saying this thing in Syria, this soup that's going on with the Russians and the Protsy war and everybody behind everybody and so many planes in the air, including yours and ours, Russians, eventually something horrible is going to happen, almost inevitably.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It doesn't look great, does it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I'd say not.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, again, you know, what the outcome of this, I suppose one argument you could make is it depends on your personal view of the Cold War, whether that was a genuine threat or whether it was an excuse to channel funds.
		And with all of these things, I imagine that it's not that straightforward and it was a mixture of the two, probably leaning towards the latter.
		Yeah, people are playing a very, very dangerous game at the minute.
		And what the outcome will be is strange.
		But to be quite, I mean, we've been in a state of constant war for either hot or cold for as long as I can remember, to be quite honest.
		Now, obviously, this is involving superpowers and such like that, so it looks decidedly more serious.
		But again, it is very, very strange.
		My only advice would be to try and sort of, and again, it sounds rather trite, but don't be afraid.
		You might have very good reason to be afraid, but again, the point is that fear eats the soul.
		Fear causes you to not be able to react sensibly and rationally.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, well, this is Gallows' humor, but I'm going to try it out on you.
		I tried it out on a physicist, and it just didn't even go anywhere.
		And that is, if nuclear war starts, a friend of mine said, he's going to run out and try to get directly under one of the incoming bombs and call for a fair catch.
		Sort of work.
		I mean, it's a football metaphor.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, I get it.
unidentified		I like it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, good.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so what is or was the Phoenix program, and did it continue?
unidentified		Well, I mean, it's a very strange thing.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It ties in with this concept we were talking about earlier about constant fear from an exterior point making people causing stress.
		Now, essentially what the Phoenix program was, was it was a terror campaign that was conducted on a civilian population or people that would, it was justified as people that were deemed to be supportive of the Viet Cong, but actually nine times out of ten it was used on civilian populations.
		And what this was, was during, as I say, the Vietnam War, certain CIA teams would go into villages, seemingly, again, that would support the Viet Cong.
		And they wouldn't attack the leaders.
		They wouldn't attack the actual fighting troops or whatever.
		They would attack their wives and children.
		Now, in the Phoenix program, they actually did very, very gruesome acts that at the time were blamed on the Vietnamese, but it later transpired were actually caused by Americans, including sort of like disemboweling, beheading, positioning of bodies.
		One particular one was that they put a large picnic table in the middle of the village, and they put places and knives and forks, plates, etc., etc.
		And then they would put all the dead bodies of the villagers sat in position around this table, take their heads off, and put their heads on the plate facing them.
		And then what they would do is they would leave and they would never leave an explanation.
		They would leave that horrible, horrible, open question of what on earth has happened here, aside from the fact that this was obviously incredibly brutal.
		And do you know, when the people got back to the village, they didn't really feel like fighting anymore because they were so disheartened that basically it just shocked them.
		It caused such an incredible trauma.
		And this is the point.
		It all comes down to trauma.
		Every type of mind control, to a degree, has an element of trauma.
		A traumatic experience that causes somebody to basically break off from their normal mode of thinking, create what's called amnesic barriers around horrific acts.
		And it simplifies the personality.
		Basically, you get like a sort of honeycomb personality, often perhaps numbed to certain emotions that can't react.
		And that is exactly what will be happening with a lot of these people where they feel a justification to join ISIS.
		Again, not to excuse, merely to explain that these are obviously damaged, disaffected people.
		You can't convince somebody to do horrific things like that without using that to fill an incredible part of their psyche and bolster their personality.
		But yeah, I mean, that was essentially the Phoenix programme.
		It was Essentially, I think it was William Colby that was in charge of it.
		Now, what's bizarre, and this wasn't really my theory, Dave McGowan has recently died, which is a great shame.
		Noticed that the sort of boon in serial killers that seemed to be using methodology that was not dissimilar to the tactics used in the Phoenix program seemed to sort of burgeon at the same time as William Colby came back from Vietnam.
		Now, again, it sounds crazy, but if you look at the inference of institutes like the Tavistock Institute, like Crew House, like Well Aating House, which basically, as I say, started all these institutions in America as well, their chief methodology is to use trauma on the civilian population in order to terrify them into passivity, basically.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It seems so counterintuitive.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You say that, and yet, you know, they're doing the exact opposite thing.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		How do you mean?
		By passivity, I mean a lack of decision-making.
		You go to an authoritarian and go, tell me what to do about this.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, but the images of horror that come from ISIS seem to have another effect entirely.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, they do.
		It depends.
		Like, I mean, the effect that they have on, say, Western audience is to terrify them and to go, this is monstrous.
		And then perhaps go to somebody, what can we do about this?
		We need to stop this.
		We need to stop this.
		So that's how it would work.
		To the other people, it's like when people used to, it's like a battle cry or something like that.
		They're getting pleasure in terrifying the opponent.
		They're psyching you out.
		That's what the mentality of that is.
		You know, like staring down another boxer or whatever.
		Or like barbarians used to basically cover themselves in blood of their enemies or something like that.
		And carry the heads of their enemies on pikes or whatnot.
		It's the same mentality, it's that, it's to terrify you.
		So it works, you know, obviously everything has a sort of stimuli and a response to it.
		The point of it is to terrify the population by going, oh my God, these people are maniacs.
		We better acquiesce to all their needs because otherwise we're going to lose.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, I'm not sure anybody's saying that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, but that's the point of it.
		And the other response is to go, well, no, I mean, we need to do something about it.
		I mean, the fear response, as I'm saying, the point of it from ISIS's view is to terrify.
		The point of it, what it actually does, is it does terrify, but the response to that isn't necessarily that they're just going to stay frozen.
		Or is it?
		Because it depends again entirely on your view of who this actually benefits.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, it seems to do two things.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Certainly it does terrify, but then on the other hand, it seems to recruit as well.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Same time.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Of course, yeah.
		Because it's a show of power, and you get to join this powerful entity.
		Like, it's like people, I mean, this might sound like a glib thing, but it's like a nerdy kid from the suburbs vicariously living out his fantasy through a rap song.
		Yeah, I'm a gangster.
		Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
		I know that's a really, really thin end of the wedge, but it's the same thing.
		You can associate yourself with this more powerful group.
		Depends how you want to take it.
		It depends on your personal ideology.
		So most people would think it's foreign.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, let's try this.
		Let's move into another area and say, and ask how entertainment, and that's most of what people watch after all, is entertainment.
		How entertainment can influence how we view the world.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, have you ever read books like Operation Hollywood, for example?
		I mean, what a lot of people don't realise is that seemingly...
		The most effective propaganda is something that you would never assume was propaganda.
		Now, did you know that the CIA has a liaison office with Hollywood that's also in Congress with the Department of Defense?
		Now, what this basically does is it has an office which can lend you all sorts of equipment or people or troops or whatever to make your film look extra special.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I sure believe it.
		I believe it.
		I do.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Sorry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I believe it.
		Simple as that.
		I believe that the CIA probably has exactly that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, it's absolutely true.
		You'll find that they actually thank the Department of Defense on the end of the films.
		But a lot of films that come out today, particularly ones that are aimed at the youth market, like Transformers and Iron Man and all the Marvel sort of films and stuff like that.
		And also, particularly things like Zero Dark 30 and Hurtlocker, although they are interesting cases because they pretended not to have backing of the military, which is nonsense.
		They have the backing of the military, but what the military says is essentially, well, we get the final rewrite of the script.
		Even some films like Stripes, you remember that Bill Murray film Stripes?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do.
unidentified		I do.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, that had a similar involvement of the military, and a lot of the characters were changed.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		The original script Stripes is nothing like the film that actually came out.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I'm not surprised by this at all, Neil.
		Not at all.
		I would expect it, and I understand it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		But I mean, a lot of people wouldn't, because basically you assume that, you know, I'm just a bit of entertainment, a bit of escapism.
		I'm just going to go and watch these giant robots smash each other to bits for an hour and a half.
		And you don't assume that subconsciously what they're doing is they're promoting a pro-military, pro-foreign policy type message that is actually coming through these films.
		And again, this isn't wishy-washy.
		This is absolutely admitted.
		I see it used to be run by George Tennant, who used to be the head of the CIA, that used to be the liaison office.
		I forget who exactly runs it at the minute.
		It's a different gentleman.
		But numerous films have done that.
		And then films that basically refuse to make the changes in the scripts, they don't get the help.
		Films, for example, Apocalypse Now was flat out refused because the actions of the Marines were deemed unworthy of a Marine.
		Other things like there's a film called Wind Talkers, and in it they used to be.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I've seen both.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It didn't affect Apocalypse Now was a great motion picture.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, absolutely, but it was about that.
		I'm a big fan of it.
		But what I'm saying is that the message wasn't deemed positive enough for the American military, and so they refused to allow the use of any of their equipment.
		And so he had to go and borrow some offer off somebody that was fighting a war at the time.
		And so it caused a load of fuss.
		But the same thing happened with James Bond films, for example.
		The characters that make massive errors, originally they were an American, and they were changed.
		And in return for that, they were allowed to use certain aircraft carriers and such like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So would it be fair to say that Hollywood, over the years, slowly but surely manipulates you into a point of view?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It certainly can, and it certainly does in the more mainstream films who have an economic reason to do this.
		Obviously, there's still art that gets out there.
		There's films like Apocalypse Now, and there's films that have a sort of a negative portrayal as well.
		But what's strange is that this certain raft of films, all that seem to be aimed at a certain demographic, which, by the way, just happens to be people who are of that age where they might want to join the military, they all have the backing of the CIA and the military and have an implicit overtone of being positive towards American foreign policy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Remarkable.
		And in Britain, since we can talk about both countries, do you think that your British government has the same sort of control over the media?
		Or even more so?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		They do have embedded journalists.
unidentified		I mean, this was exposed by a gentleman called David Shayler a few years ago.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I mean, what's interesting is, you know, we've been talking about propaganda and stuff, and people will be like, no way.
		I'm informed.
		I watch all the different news and stuff like that.
		You know, during the Kosovo invasion, the CIA embedded 1,200 agents at CNN to influence the news.
		Basically, the whole point of them was to spread propaganda.
		Again, they admitted this.
		One person who was interviewed says, are you affecting news?
		So we call that propaganda.
		He says, it's above my pay rate to say yes or no, but I certainly hope so because that's what I'm doing.
		So, you know, also, the CIA owns 16 times more publishing houses than the largest publisher, largest legitimate publisher in America.
		So magazines, books, all the sorts of things that would paint a certain picture.
		I'll give you all their examples.
		like, films can change history.
		I mean, everybody's brave heart is littered with historical inaccuracies, but that's basically people's...
		Yes.
		About the stealing of the Enigma machine.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, yes, yes.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		That almost caused an international incident because basically the Enigma machine was stolen by British soldiers and agents.
		That film shows that it was plucky Americans that actually did it.
		And it actually caused Prime Minister Blair to publicly denounce that particular film.
		But, I mean, I'll give you another example, Ray.
		Have you ever heard of the phrase or the incident, the storming of the Winter Palace?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, that's one I haven't heard of.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Right, okay.
		It's an incident that happened during the Russian Revolution.
		And the common sort of mythos is that this army of peasants sort of stormed into the Winter Palace, which was this, where the Tsar and his family lived.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		And was that when they got killed?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Obviously a big symbol of their oppressive regime.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		And they went in there and killed everybody.
unidentified		And there was a huge, fabulous uprising.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		What actually happened was nothing of the sort.
		It basically, some people wandered into there.
		Everybody of any importance had already left.
		They got lost.
		And some of the servants actually helped them out of there.
		But a few years later, as part of Russian propaganda, they staged a theatrical recreation of this event.
		And it was filmed by a gentleman called Sergei Eisenstein.
		And then this was published in a film called Ten Days That Changed the World.
		Now, bizarrely, if you go to certain history books, not all history books, but they will show pictures, stills from the film, and proclaim them to be photos of the incident that never took place.
		So that incident has become absorbed in the cultural lexicon to the point where certain historians will swear blind that it was a real event.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Is there a way to recognize the fact that you are being exposed to mind control and counter it?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In other words, sort of like an alarm clock going off in your mind as you sit and listen to the news or watch a program that you're now the subject of mind control.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, yes and no.
		I mean, obviously, it's very, very sophisticated.
		Now, like anything, you don't put a big plate of green stuff with a sign in it that says poison on somebody's you put it in a pie, so that's all in their favourite food.
		So it's obviously well disguised.
		What I would say is when anything comes to you, you think, well, could there be an ulterior motive?
		Like, who would benefit in positioning me in this particular way?
		Who would ultimately benefit in me hating this person?
		Like, you know, we've all seen The Godfather and stuff like that.
		You can kind of think of news like that.
		Okay, right.
		So they're telling me this.
		How could they possibly benefit from if that happened to be not true?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, that's kind of like follow the money.
		All right, hold on, Neil.
		We're at a breakpoint.
		I'm Art Bell.
		This is midnight in the desert.
		We're talking About mind control.
		If it's really good, like a good phone tap, you never even know it's there, right?
unidentified		Who's going to came when the old oak tree is at beside the river where you were to meet me?
		This is midnight in the desert.
		To come the shore.
		If you're east of midnight, call 1-952-call art.
		If you're west of midnight, call 1-952-225-5278.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		So what I want to do now is actually open the lines.
		My guest, Neil Sanders, is here from Britain.
		Let me give you a rendition of all the numbers, and if you want to join the conversation, please feel free by all means.
		It's open now, folks.
		The national number, rather, is Area Code 952-225-5278.
		Once again, Area Code 952-225-5278.
		The first time caller line, if that's what you are, never called the show before, you're welcome at Area Code 775-285-5800.
		775-285-5800.
		And even the Roswell line can be used, if you wish.
		The entranceway in Roswell, we'll call it.
		You call that number.
		It rings here.
		Area code 575-208-7787.
		And then finally, of course, Skype.
		You are welcome to join in the subject mind control.
		And you can join in on Skype.
		North America, meaning America and Canada, MITD51.
		That's us.
		If you're outside North America, the rest of the world is MITD55.
		That's M-I-T-D 55.
		Once you've entered it, we'll be on the contact list, and you can just hit it, and boom, from anywhere in the world, you can dial us up free of charge.
		Once again, here is Neil Sanders.
		And Neil, before I pick up any lines here, I wanted to discuss with you again how, A, to recognize the fact that you are in a you're being controlled, that you're in a mind-control environment.
		And then B, how to fight that?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, as we said before, like, how to know you're in a mind-controlled environment?
		Well, you are in a mind-controlled environment.
		There are numerous things that affect everything.
		I mean, just going back to what we were saying about the changing of films and such like that, it's not just films, for example.
		Say Time Warner.
		Time Warner has got a conglomerate board level where there's shareholders that sit on the same board that's connected with weapons companies like Lockheed Martin and such like that.
		So due to sort of shareholder laws, but also due to sort of profitability and such like that, they won't make decisions in other areas of the company that will affect the weapons manufacturer.
		A case in point was when Tupac, his second album was delayed for quite some time because shareholders felt that it would be detrimental to them at that particular time because he had an anti-war sentiment on his first album.
		And so what you see is you see the stifling of certain people because of, again, very, very disparate things that you wouldn't imagine.
		You know, you'd never think that a record company had anything to do with a military-industrial complex type organization that had a vested interest in continuing a particular war at that time.
		But they do.
		So you've got to appreciate that things that seem organic are not organic.
		Justine Bieber was not an organic explosion.
		He was part of a very, very clever marketing campaign by Scooter Braun.
		All your favourite artists don't really write those songs.
		It's Max Martin.
		They're selling a project to you.
		So you've got to sort of understand that basically there are vested interests behind any bit of information that comes to you.
		And when you do, perhaps then you've got a better way of going, hang on, this is rubbish.
		It doesn't mean that you can't enjoy that song.
		It doesn't mean you can't enjoy that film.
		It doesn't mean that you'd stop watching television or anything like that.
		You just understand that sometimes people have got a bit of a vest.
		I'll put it in a, like, did you see that Narcos that was on recently?
		It was a very, very good and entertaining series, but it certainly washed over the Iran-Contra and the involvement of the CIA in the Medayen and such like that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I mean, I remember Iran-Contra, but I missed the film.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Sorry?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I said I remember Iran-Contra like it was yesterday, but the film you mentioned, no.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It was a recent television series on Netflix.
		But again, you know, that'll be, the majority of people will have, that'll be their first introduction to the understanding of Pablo Escobar, for example.
		And so that picture is painted in their head.
		That perception comes to them.
		And what's strange is the first thing that you're told, you usually, you know, people have got this inclination to go, seems plausible, and then stick to that.
		And then you have to argue another point.
		So it's bizarre that basically the first thing that people come to is often the thing that they take as a base point, that then has to be disproved.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, well, let's take a few calls, shall we?
		Here is James on Skype.
		Hello, James.
unidentified		Hello, Art Coswells.
		Thank you.
		I'm getting sort of a feedback.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Sorry about that.
unidentified		That's all right.
		Anyways, Neil, I've been listening to you, and I'm an American.
		you know, I've been over, I've lived a quarter of my life in the Middle East.
		Okay.
		While you're saying certain things, I think that you lose a little bit of, I don't know how to put this to you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Just straight on.
unidentified		Lose a little bit of credibility when you're trying to say that the CIA is the reason for everything when you don't look further back into history.
unidentified		I mean, the British have had more involvement than we have.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I agree with that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Hold on, Waller.
		He's agreeing with you.
		You don't want to miss that.
unidentified		Okay.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely correct.
		I mean, this is the point that I was trying to make as well, is that it's never as simple as that.
		Perhaps I have oversimplified by continuously saying the CIA was only to sort of, you know, try and cater to the audience that I felt that we were talking to.
		But you're absolutely correct.
		There are often cross-contamination.
		A case in point would be the 1975 coup that the CIA, MI6, and also the Australian Secret Service took in Australia, where they deposed the Labour government because they wanted to close Pine Gap.
		And ever since, basically, there's been that involvement from MI6 and the CIA in the foreign policy of Australia.
		So you're absolutely right.
		Perhaps I did oversimplify that.
		But what I believe is true is that there is foreign intelligence agencies involvement in all sorts of conflict across the world.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Colin.
unidentified		What I was saying is I'm even going further back than that, but let's get off that track for a second.
		My major concern is you brought up a problem with mercenaries, okay?
		I happen to do that for a career.
		And I'll tell you this.
		I've worked with Brits, South Africans, and a whole lot of people that do the same thing.
		And we all work for one unified purpose to try to bring stability to a region that's never seen stability since the seventh century.
		And it was failed from the beginning because it was done incorrectly.
		And I know how it was done incorrectly.
		And so I think you also lump everybody into, look, I don't fight, I fight for money, but I also fight for ideals.
		Yes, but you'll notice since those ideals have been perverted, and that's what I'm trying to get to, is please don't, you keep lumping everybody into this big pie.
		And I think that's a big mistake.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, hold on, Colin.
unidentified		Go ahead.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Okay, no, that's a fair point.
		Well, if I've done that, that was not intended.
		I assume that the point was inferred by the fact that because you're not part of a terrorist organization, I appreciate that, obviously, people are motivated by different things.
unidentified		And therefore, I assume that you would understand I wasn't talking about you.
		Well, you may have assumed that, but when you speak in generalities, just like I've seen you numerous times try to bend over backwards, when you see the invasion of the West in Europe, especially England, of Islamo-fascist and Chalberde, what's Adnan Chalberde?
		You guys have him on TV all the time, and we even have him on in the U.S. And yet he's the most virulent Islamo-fascist.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, but he's also almost per positive, like, proven to be an MI5 asset.
		Like, that's the point.
		He's stoking up this nonsense as part of the ongoing fear-based product.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But proven by who?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Like, nobody takes him seriously in England.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Everybody basically assumes that he's a tool of the government.
unidentified		Right.
		You say proven, but proven by who.
		I mean, that's the whole thing.
		By his past association with MI5.
		Oh, you have those facts and you can post them for art to display.
		No, but there's enough red flags to make a case.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		And certainly when you've seen all the other people, like I forget the gentleman who was basically the mastermind of 9-11, who was a guest of the president.
		It transpired that he was evaded from capture many, many times because of the fact that he was an asset of the American and the British intelligence agencies.
		And also, I believe Mohammed Atta was also an asset of the CIA, as was Tim Osman at the time.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Can we explore your views?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Abu Kamza has also basically, it's all connected with a place called Flingbury Mosque, which is widely believed to basically have been infiltrated by intelligence agencies many, many years ago and is viewed with suspicion amongst the Muslim community in England.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, Neil and Caller, thank you.
unidentified		That was a good call, really a good call.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My question is, your views on 9-11.
		I would like to explore a little bit your views on 9-11.
		You sort of just hinted at it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I don't know.
		I don't have a theory.
		I'm not one of these people that said Bush did it or it was an inside job.
		I think that there are a lot of holes in the story, in the sort of mainstream explanation of it, the 9-11 Commission and such like that.
		There's a lot of things that have not been explained.
		I could see how it would be beneficial for, again, MI5, MI6, numerous agencies to allow it.
		I tend to sort of go along with the sort of Gore Vidal said that he doesn't believe that it was an American government plan, but he does believe that certain elements of the government could have stood aside to allow certain things to happen.
		And certainly when you look at the funding that was channelled through the ISA to Mohammed Atta and the training that was given to the Taliban and the aid that was given to the Taliban and also to Osama bin Laden and such like that, it certainly looks murky.
		Do I have a strong definite position?
		No.
		And I think it's dangerous to have a strong definite position.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Alright, if I can actually pin down one of your positions, I think it is that most things have happened in order to benefit the military industrial complex, our nation or yours, right?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yes, I think so.
		But how they are fomented to happen is interesting.
		How direct a hand in it.
		Whether, like in the first World Trade Center bombing, the FBI are actually giving him the bomb, which was proven, by the way, which he moved to a different place so it didn't cause the disruption that actually happened.
		Or whether it's just fomenting radicalization groups and allowing them to do certain things.
		Yeah, I mean, that has happened many, many, many times throughout history.
		And I wouldn't be surprised if certain elements of intelligence agencies allowed that to happen on 9-11.
		I'm very, very suspicious of the official explanation, which I believe has a lot of holes in the narrative.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		I thought, perhaps.
		Thank you for confirming that.
		Hello there.
		On the phone, you're on the air with Neil.
unidentified		Yes, is this me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Only you know that for sure, ma'am, but it sounds like you.
unidentified		Okay, great.
		My name is Marlon.
		I'm calling from Los Angeles.
		And I'm curious about cults in general.
		And I'm wondering what your guest thinks about, for instance, Scientology and mind control and that sort of thing.
		And I wonder if he has any comment about that.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You're going to get us all in trouble talking about Scientology.
unidentified		They're going to be sitting outside scrolling us.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Scientology, for example, it is a classic sort of court mentality.
		The point of it is to remove people and isolate them to give them meaning and to give them an understanding of a place in the world.
		And this is why it's very difficult to break out of certain courts because you've got to basically admit that you were wrong.
		So you go back to zero, but you don't, you were zero when you went in.
		The cult gave you some meaning.
		So to come out of it, same with the terrorist organisation, you're going to go back to psychologically less than zero.
		So it's very difficult.
		You need to offer somebody something other than that to sort of act as a mental crutch.
		What's certainly interesting is that the CIA were looking into the creation of cults and the manifestation of cults and how cults could be used for political gains, such as that, in an offshoot of MKUltra called MK Often.
		Now this started in about 1953, just about the same time that Scientology was starting.
		Certain elements in the Scientology auditing process seem remarkably similar to a torture document that the CIA produced called the QBARC document.
		Again, they basically promote isolation and over-stimulation, which is, by the way, exactly what you get when you're on Facebook because you're isolated and you're overstimulated.
		The point of this, according to the Q-BARP document, is to reduce you to a vegetative state where you can't make decisions on your own.
		And therefore, it's used in interrogation scenarios.
		What the e-meter, I forget what it's called, the meter that you hold when you're doing the auditing during Scientology is, is basically like a crude lie detector.
		And so it amps up your stress, which is again a tactic of intelligence agencies in interrogation scenarios.
unidentified		Very interesting.
unidentified		Because I've always sort of felt that religions are a way to control the masses.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You could make that argument.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I tend to stick clear of that because it's not really any of my business until people start using it as an excuse to be terrible to one another, really.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You mean like now?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, absolutely.
		Yeah, totally.
		But I mean, I don't know whether I said this earlier, but Christopher Hitchens basically said, you need religion to make people do wicked things.
		Now, I don't entirely agree with that.
		I don't think he goes far enough with that.
		I think he was basically stacking his argument.
		You need a cause to make people do wicked things.
		That could be anything.
		That could be patriotism.
		That could be money.
		That could be the love of a woman.
		That could be misplaced loyalty.
		There has to be a cause.
		Now, religion can be an all-encompassing cause because, as I say, a lot of people use it to define their life.
		And 90% of people are fine with that.
		That's great.
		Get on with it.
		That'd be good.
		If you get some happiness out of it, that's wonderful.
		When I would start talking about it is when you start using it as an excuse for, as I say, genocide or control of a population or something like that.
		But I think your point stands.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Thank you very much, ma'am.
		What about Facebook?
		Wanted to crack at Facebook?
		You said that we could.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, it's terrible.
		It basically causes depression and it causes narcissism.
		Everybody goes on there and it's addictive like gambling, really, which is what's strange.
		When you put down a post, what you're doing is you're gambling with social information.
		Now, social information is really important.
		Like, chimpanzees will go without food just to look at a picture of the dominant male in the tribe because that's more important.
		that social information is more important and more beneficial to their life than a bit of food.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		So you're telling me that to a chimpanzee, a picture...
unidentified		Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Wait, wait, Neil.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You're saying a picture of an alpha male chimpanzee on Facebook could be more important than food.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		To a chimpanzee, it could.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, that's what I said.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
		And I'll tell you for why.
		If you look at John, John's just got promotion.
		Well, how did John get promotion?
		Well, if I watch Howie Axe and copy Howie Axe, I might get promotion.
		John's made fire.
		How did he do that?
		If I copy John, I can make fire.
		And that's why people are so obsessed with celebrities and gossip because they're deemed the alpha males or the alpha people within our society.
		So subconsciously, you're trying to glean information to make yourself more, in quotes, successful.
		So when you're doing stuff like that with Facebook, it's more potent to your psyche than you would realise.
		You put down a post, say, you get a load of likes, that's marvelous.
		You get a massive rush of dopamine or whatever, just like gambling.
		You get nobody responds to it.
		All of a sudden, you feel terrible.
		Well, here's an interesting thing, Art.
		What you might try and do is you might try and cater your output.
		You might go, well, that post seems to get more response.
		That paints me as a nicer person.
		I'm going to do that rather than the stuff that I was trying previously.
		Now, here's where it gets horrible, okay?
		Two points.
		A, most people, for want of a better phrase, lie on Facebook.
		They post the most flattering photo.
		No.
		They give down the highlights, the edited highlights.
		You lie by omission.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no.
		You're ruining it for me.
		Really?
		People put up their best picture?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Sometimes.
unidentified		Sometimes.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You don't put up the minutiae of your life.
		You couldn't possibly fit the entire day of your life into Facebook.
		You're far too fascinating.
		You're multifasting for that.
unidentified		I do get it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		So what happens is you're looking at it and you're going, oh, John's going hang gliding today.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Oh, my life's so boring.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		My life.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		So what happens is basically sooner or later, your subconscious realizes that your Facebook profile is probably more popular than you.
		It's probably got more friends than you.
		Not really, but this is what your subconscious is being told.
		And so it builds up this depression.
		What's going on at the same time is you're trying to present an image of yourself that edited highlights the best of.
		So some people, not all people, would start to subtly lie.
		You see it on people flexing on Instagram and lying and stuff like that, all of which is incredibly psychologically damaging.
		The other point is, again, apart from the fact that basically you just, it's an information gathering site that's founded by the CIA's Incutel.
		Sorry, James, talking about the CIA again, but that's a fact.
		And, you know, you're isolated and you're overstimulated, which bizarrely was part of this torture manual that invites, we will basically encourage people to reduce to a vegetative state.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I could make it, and I'm not going to do it.
		Let's just take the next call.
		Hello, you're on the air with Neil Sanders.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Hello, this is Mark in San Diego, and thank you for the show.
		I actually called in Friday during the fast last, and I was the one who mentioned the first 15 minutes of the first Manchurian candidate movie with, and I think it's very interesting.
		In the beginning of that movie, they actually give a bibliography of the actual things that they're discussing in that movie.
		And I think on a much more sophisticated level than rumor and finding people through attitude to actually go and commit these acts, I think that it's much more subtle.
		I think it can actually be chemically induced.
		I think that science has mapped the entire structure of the brain and voltages in particular areas of the brain.
		I think that what you can do is recruit people by a predisposition.
		But I think that, you know, I would like to find out exactly where those two people went and before they committed this act.
		The other thing that I was so glad that you mentioned, Neil, was the money trail, because this is a grim statement to make.
		But, you know, there are people in this country when there is one of those huge mass shootings, there are people who profit from that by whatever means.
		It could be at a very mundane level like ratings for local TV stations.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'll tell you, profits is gun weapons manufacturers.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Right, right.
		And one other last thing that I want to bring up that I think is very positive because, you know, we're just kind of mired here in this bleak negativity.
		And you were saying, how can we get people to change?
		Well, I think that a great example, now we have competitive sports in schools, and I'm trying to create a concept of unity sports.
		And I think one of the main ways, one of the surprise things that has happened in the past 20 years or so is Las Vegas used to really be controlled by the mob and now it's controlled by Cirque du Soleil to some extent.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It ran better when it was the mob.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Well, but when you go see a show like that or you go see gymnastics, you know, everybody wins.
		And I think that George Carlin had a routine in the 70s when they were starting to amp up football.
		And football is very divisive.
		And he was talking about the difference between baseball.
		You go home when you score.
		And it's like gridiron and all this.
		I think in some ways it's been proven that the NFL is used as a means, a fertile ground to market war.
		There's no question about that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		The NFL is used to market war.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Lay that on me.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		How's that happening?
		The military actually pays the NFL to include overt patriotism and things like that.
		Okay, war is a different thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, come on.
		Come on.
		Baseball games.
		We do the same thing.
		Baseball games, you know, we have the national anthem there, too.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		That's overt.
		One thing, okay, the last thing I'm going to say about this is that basically when you're addicted to something, especially like excitement, especially like a football game or intense competition or even gladiators probably in the past, it's your glands secreting drugs into your systems.
		So I think that if you actually, I think that really, everybody who's Excited, and everybody who suffers from post-traumatic stress, there's been this huge release of chemicals.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I mean, I'm going to give you that.
		There's a release of endorphins.
		For example, when Green Bay threw that pass at the end of this game last week, I damn near jumped through the roof.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		See?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		But that didn't cause me to say, you know, let me get a gun here and join something.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Fertilizer doesn't make the plants grow.
		You have to put a seed in there, right?
		You know, so by fertilizing the entire climate in the country into warring.
		And I'll tell you this.
		I'm a musical director in a church.
		And I also, I play music in many, many different situations.
		Catholic churches, Jewish synagogue, other sorts of...
		I watch...
		I'm telling you.
		And so there's an element of division and tribalism that I think is very pernicious.
		And I think that 100 million people at least watch one football game a week.
		So that's 300 million hours per week in America of people getting into that vibe.
unidentified		So that's $1.2 million a month.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		I'm concerned.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Somebody's making money off of it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Well, the NFL is making a lot of it.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Well, I think that the media make money, and I think that, well, I could sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I really think that tribal division creates a fertile ground for misadventures through the world because of division.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		We're all in it together, and that's what I think about the concept of unity sports.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		When you say unity sports, explain yourself.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		What do you mean by unity sports?
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		If you've ever gone to see Cirque du Sale, one of their incredible acts, there was a show called Kidam, and the ending was this, it's called the Bankette or Bankin.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		And so you have these big, huge guys, right, who are the base of these pyramids, and they launched the year.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Unity's horse, real quick, 15 seconds, we've got a break coming.
		What does it mean?
		Nobody wins?
		It just, you play?
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Everybody wins.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody wins.
mark in san diego ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, like the high school musical.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I had a feeling that's where you were headed.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Everybody wins.
unidentified		Okay, well, hold on.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Here's a place where not everybody wins.
unidentified		Right like that, you're going to set my soul on fire.
		Got a whole lot of money that's red as a fire.
		Oh, it's making so high.
		Coming to you at the speed of light in the darkness.
		This is Midnight in the Desert with Art Bell.
		Now, here's Art.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay.
		Rob from Ottawa, Through the Wormhole, says, Art, the sound quality of this show is amazing.
		I love it.
		I beam when I see things like that.
		We're trying to bring you the next level in audio sound quality, both with the guests, with callers, on the phones, all the way around.
		We're trying to bring you the next level of audio, and I think we're doing it.
		And then Mars Trax says, oh, by the way, that passed by Aaron Rodgers was a Hail Mary.
		About as anti-Muslim as you can get in sports.
		And with that, back we go to my guest, Neil Sanders, and we're talking about mind control.
		So if you have a comment, feel free to join us.
		Neil, you've done a great job.
		Here is Estus for you on Skype.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hello, guys.
unidentified		Can you hear me?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, indeed.
unidentified		All right, excellent.
		First time on Skype, actually.
		Neil, the stuff you've been talking about with like media study, it's something I find really fascinating.
		I studied it a fair bit in university.
		And that point you made earlier with the show Narcos and in general, the influence that entertainment has on our thinking, I had a couple questions that kind of fall under the same subject.
		First is For someone who enjoys action movies Like the spectacle of it all And the characters and such Is it possible for people to still enjoy those movies And be completely divorced From an intent To influence their Opinion on public policy Or the military And my second question Yeah, I would hope so.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I'm a big fan of action films and violent horrors and such like that.
		Yeah, absolutely.
		You can just take it as entertainment and avoid the message.
		I mean, it's like an advertisement.
		You don't go out and buy every single product, particularly if you've seen through the advertisement.
		You know, if you sort of know that actually, those Air Jordans aren't going to make me a better basketball player, and they're probably not going to make me any more successful with the ladies, then there's no point buying them.
		So in that sense, yeah, absolutely, you can watch them.
unidentified		All right, fair enough.
		And my second question is, with that point you made about the show Narcos, how people can see that depiction of Pablo Escobar, and then they may cling to that.
		I find that in the Internet age, certainly historical inaccuracies and stuff may come up in shows and movies, but they'll be derided and that information can be spread online, whether that's like the trivia page of IMDb where they say, oh, this was historically inaccurate or in a movie review or something.
		And I wonder, in the internet age, would it become that much more difficult to influence people's perceptions of those events given how much more agency and access to information they have?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Well, I mean, this is an interesting Thing about as you put it, the internet age, because obviously there is a lot of information out there, but because there's a lot of information, it doesn't necessarily mean that people are any better at deciphering it.
		What I've certainly seen with the internet is obviously you can go and find the truth behind it and the more complicated backstory to it.
		But also what I've seen, particularly with the sort of advent of social media, is a rush to judgment, is where people have got to solve this incident or have their opinion out as quickly as possible.
		And then people tend to start making statements and aligning themselves to positions where it's very, very difficult to sort of back out of it.
		So it's a strange one, really.
		You've also got the sort of mockingbird type stuff whereby the source of the information can seem like to be credible, but in actual fact it would be disinformation or something like that.
		So the thing about the internet is it's increased a lot of things and it's decreased a lot of things.
		To be quite honest, the internet is just there's no fact that's on the internet that you couldn't find in a book somewhere.
		It's just the ease with which you can access that information.
		But because of that, you can access lots and lots.
		So it's a bit of a double-edged sword, to be quite honest.
		As you say, you can certainly find information.
		But that doesn't necessarily mean that people will be motivated to do that.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Okay, all that said, if you don't mind, thank you, Coller.
		Very good call again.
		Is the internet on balance a good thing or not?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It depends.
		I mean, it certainly seems to encourage quite negative behaviour.
		As you were talking about earlier, you know, people start getting into huge rows and fleeting like Vitriol and stuff like that.
		And it encourages trolling and encourages a certain degree of showing off and such like that.
		But also, it's an incredible...
		He said that the internet is the most fabulous means of communication ever devised, and yet we use it for sending pictures of funny cats.
		Smartphones, you know, you can use smartphones to explore all the galleries in the world.
		You could go around and look at every Grand Master painting in your lunch hour, but you don't.
		You go on an app for a gambling site or a hilarious scarface soundboard or something like that.
		So, you know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I do know, actually.
		All right, to the phones, and let's make it you.
		Hello, you're on air.
unidentified		Hi, I'm calling from Washington State.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yes, sir.
unidentified		Yeah, that last caller you had talking about Unity participation thread, it sounds like he was the last pick to be in PE.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I'm sorry, the last what?
unidentified		He sounded like he was the last to be pitching PE.
unidentified		It sounds like he was the last to be pitching PE.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No comment.
unidentified		It sounds like he was calling from his cup shed where Jamal was inside in his house with his wife, probably making participation unity awards or something.
		Anyways, you know, this experiment you have of hiring a forum poster on our Bell fan site to be producer, I don't think it's working out.
		Some of these guests are, I don't know, I don't understand the mind control between indoctrination, how that's a link.
		I mean, to me, they're two separate things.
		I mean, I don't know how to jump it.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Boy, I disagree completely, and my producer did a great job.
unidentified		I think she's utterly superior.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		In fact, I'll go beyond that.
		I think we've had better shows in this incarnation of the show, a large degree of it due to the production staff, Heather, than we've had in any show I've done in any year past.
		How about that?
unidentified		Okay.
		Okay, I'll take that.
		I just want to know, I'm really just trying to understand the difference between, because to me, mind control is a very specific, and it exists, a very specific control.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, no, it's not very specific.
		Unless you're talking about, you know, the people who got Fed LSD and programs of that sort, mind control is not very specific at all.
		In fact, it's, how would you put it, Neil?
		It's actually...
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		And to sort of go back to, I believe it was Mark was asking about the Manchurian Candidate and stuff.
		If you actually buy the Blu-ray of the Manchurian Candidate, there's an essay in there that I actually wrote that discusses all the different things.
		There certainly are techniques that can control the individual.
		For example, Ross Addy was experimenting with, you can track an emotion, say rage, and it has a specific EEG output.
		You can put that on a microwave, you can fire a person, and they will respond and experience and feel that emotion, and there's nothing that you can do to stop it.
		Also, if you look at, say, certain assassins, so you're absolutely correct.
		There is a degree of personal mind control.
		But I never really finished it right at the beginning.
		Basically, mind control, it runs the gamut all the way from truth serums to Manchurian candidates to propaganda and social indoctrination for social control.
		Because essentially, that's the point of civilization, is a few people have to control a rising mass.
		Now, whether that's through fair or unfair means, there has to be a certain degree of what could be considered mind control.
		Certainly the tacit agreement that these people who are in charge are allowed to be in charge.
		There are certain societal acceptances, and there are certain indoctrinations that go through, say, the news media or just what is called, it's called the engineering or the manufacture of consent, which is basically the organizing of what is considered acceptable within a society.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Got it?
		But that's a more subtle form.
		As you mentioned, there are very direct forms, but they're in the great minority, and they might be done to achieve a certain specific goal for the people I know you think that benefit.
		But the larger mind control is a great general thing that is not very obvious at all.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		For example, communism.
		We could look at, particularly in, say, Cold War times, and look at, say, the Stalinistic communist regime.
		And we could go, wow, look how mind control there.
		That's in fact how Mind Control got started or got its official funding was because American GIs were denouncing their patriotism and turning themselves off over to the Koreans and basically saying that they believed communism was actually the better system.
		And the excuse was that they've been mind-controlled, they've been brainwashed or indoctrinated.
		Brainwashing, the actual phrase comes from a CIA agent called Edward Hunter that wrote a book called Brainwashing in Red China.
		So you could see that.
		Or example how the propaganda of the Nazis allowed them to commit such acts or something.
		So that would be what I mean by a societal brainwashing or mind control.
unidentified		Art, one more thing.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Go ahead.
unidentified		Yeah, sure.
unidentified		ALMAO.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, why not?
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, so to Skype and David, hi.
unidentified		Hi, Art Bell.
unidentified		Glad to have you back.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Neil Sanders, nice show.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Thank you.
unidentified		Like a shout out to Dave McGowan.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Absolutely.
unidentified		My question is, and I know we're short on time, and I will take my answer off the air, but a connection between the Illuminati and Super Bowl halftime shows.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Oh, yeah, sure.
		I knew that one a long time ago, but go ahead.
		Expand, Neil.
		The Illuminati and halftime shows.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Again, it's not my particular forte, but I'm aware of it.
		The suggestion is that basically the halftime shows seem to have a certain occultic bent and themes that run through them that can only be understood, that seem sort of, you know, very, very bizarre on stage, but if you understand, say, mystery religions or esoteric symbolism or that sort of thing, certainly seem to hit certain points again and again and again.
		I'm not sure about this.
		I mean, like, I've obviously seen things by people like Freeman and Vigilant Citizen and stuff like that.
unidentified		Some of them I agree with more than others.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Some of them I wonder how much say the actual artist has in any of this.
		And I think sometimes it's misdirected.
		You know, people like say, oh, Jay-Z's in the Illuminati.
		very much doubt that.
unidentified		Yeah.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		But whether he's been told to make us...
		It's strange.
		It's there.
unidentified		Right.
unidentified		Laurel Camyon.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I really can't help you guys.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I usually use halftime for bladder relief.
unidentified		Then you missed Janet Jackson's nipple.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You know, I didn't because they replayed that a million times.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		No, I didn't.
unidentified		Right, right.
		Well, anyway, thank you, Art.
		I am over the two-drink maximum, so I'm out of here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much for the call.
		That is a Friday night, by the way, rule.
		You're on the air.
		Hello.
unidentified		Hey, Art.
		Hey, Neil, how are you doing?
		Fine.
		I like your opinion about what's going on.
		You know what?
		You spoke about the Illuminati.
		They've been behind everything from day one.
		Of course.
		I mean, if you look at the dollar bill, they're on the back of that.
		The MI5 Crest, they're on that.
		Tavistock is a branch of them, and you know what they were used for.
		I mean, they created the Beatles and they created the Rolling Stones.
		And why is this guy, William Shears Campbell, allowed to impersonate the immortal Paul McCartney?
		I just don't understand it why people aren't outing him.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Oh, you're talking about the police replacing Paul McCartney?
unidentified		Yeah.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		All right.
unidentified		Again, I've heard about it.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		I don't know.
		I've seen the various bits about it.
		There's a gentleman called his name's escaping me, Nicholas Callistrom, who's apparently bring out a book about it.
		But I'd have to read that to sort of pass comment.
		Now, here's the thing, right, okay.
		I don't hold a strong opinion one way or the other, to be quite honest.
		I could understand why there was a television program in England called Blue Peter, right, okay?
		And it was for children.
		And they had a dog on there called Petra.
		And this dog died.
		And rather than traumatise the children of the nation, they replaced it with a look-alike dog to maintain the brand of Blue Peter, for want of a better explanation.
		So I could kind of see, because obviously the Beatles is a far bigger brand than Blue Peter.
		So I could see how they might work as to whether that's true or not.
		Yourself, you seem very, very sure of it.
		I don't know.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I don't know either, so I'm just going to move on.
		Hello there.
		David, your turn with Neil.
unidentified		Hello.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Going once, going twice, gone.
		People, you cannot leave your devices on like that if all we hear when, you know, when you call is that, it's very, very bad.
		Hi, on the phone, you're on the air.
		Hello there.
		Going once, going twice, gone.
		Hi, on the phone, you're on the air.
benton in arkansas ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I was just wanting to speak with Neil, and, you know, I'm with you on that.
		There's a lot of people thinking that the Illuminati is causing all this stuff, but this really goes back to polarity.
		This whole world is built on polarity.
		I mean, positive, negative, male, female, charge and discharge, science and religion.
		And the bigger powers that be, we've been told time and time and again that we are controlled by principalities and powers.
		Just like the, you know, well, for example, you remember the Chick-fil-A event with the homosexuality thing?
		Does anybody remember that?
unidentified		Yes.
benton in arkansas ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, so this guy gets on and says, you know, I'm against homosexuality.
		And then there's a war.
		Everybody's divided.
		And even the people that aren't divided, they're forced to choose a side or they work for the side that the other ones don't like.
		Right?
		But who profited from that whole event?
		There were lines in Chick-fil-A backed up all the way back and pushed out to the interstate where I live.
		And that's how they control people.
		You pick a side, choose a side.
		White, black, Islam, interstate.
		It's that easy.
		It's that easy.
		They do it on the internet.
		They do it everywhere.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		True enough?
benton in arkansas ▲ ● ▼		I mean, wouldn't you say that?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		You're absolutely right.
		I think it's very potent.
		I think people understand that people find comfort in tribes.
		And so they manipulate certain situations to force people in one direction or another as you stay here.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right.
		Gentlemen, I am sorry.
		We are out of time.
		It's that simple.
		We're out of time.
		Show has an ending point, and this is it.
		Neil, would you like to promote anything, a website, a book?
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, if people would be kind to us.
		They're available on NeilSandersMindControl.com.
		I'm also on Facebook, which is probably the best place to get a hold of me if you want to ask me a question or something like that.
		Despite my spending quite a long time decrying the.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		I was going to ask, you better check.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		You may or may not still be on Facebook.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		Yeah, I kind of.
		I don't tend to get on there all the time, but I'll answer a question if you send me one or whatever.
		And yeah, you can also get in touch with me via the website.
		And the website's got like sort of previous interviews that I've done on there and such like that as well.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		All right, buddy.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		It's been a pleasure.
neil sanders ▲ ● ▼		It's an absolute pleasure for me, too.
unidentified		Thank you.
art bell ▲ ● ▼		Thank you very much.
		Good night.
		Neil Sanders, all the way from Great Britain.
		Thank you all for participating, and we will be back tomorrow night with another guest not yet announced.
		You're listening to Midnight in the Desert.

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