Kevin Randle, a retired military intelligence officer with 45 years studying UFOs, examines global cover-ups in The UFO Dossier, including U.S. manipulation of foreign investigations like Australia’s 1986 dismissal and Britain’s Rendlesham Forest case, where injuries were acknowledged but ignored. He cites credible sightings—radar-tracked JAL Flight 1628 (1986), the Lubbock Lights (1951), and the Phoenix Lights (1997)—and dismisses the Air Force’s 95% identification claim as false, arguing secrecy persists via programs like Project Moondust (active until at least 1985). Randle speculates on non-hostile observation or genetic experiments but warns full disclosure risks psychological harm, underscoring decades of suppressed evidence despite technological advancements. [Automatically generated summary]
And then just a few moments later, an Air France plane from Dulles in Washington, Paris, Flight 55, diverted to Halifax, Nova Scotia.
So in both cases, hitting Air France.
And that's, of course, going to hurt them somewhat economically and give the country more of the jitters and lots of passengers, the jitters, I'm sure.
French police now are hunting for a second fugitive directly involved, they say, in the deadly Paris attacks.
As France made, get this, an unprecedented demand that its European Union allies support its military action against the Islamic State group.
Did you hear that?
Including the president who spoke from Manila in the Philippines, where he presently is, going after them for that, suggesting it's a little ridiculous that we'd be afraid of widows and little children, boys and girls.
There's an awful lot of, I don't know how many, you know, guys in their 20s and 30s we bring over here from, I don't think many.
But yeah, I mean, they would be a worry.
I can see why they would be a worry.
And some of the widows are also not to be trusted.
A lot of them lost husbands over there due to reasons that would give them reason to be unhappy with us.
And oh, by the way, before we leave the subject of ISIS, this kind of confirms what the doctor said last night.
OP Paris, it's called, there's an article in RT Live breaking today, the 17th rather, that hacktivist group Get This Anonymous has reported that more than 5,500 Twitter accounts belonging to Islamic State, the Islamic State, have been taken down.
It comes after the collective declared a total war on the militant group following the Paris attacks.
And again, echoing what was said here last night.
Tweeting from its Op Paris account, Anonymous stated, we report more than 5,500 Twitter account of ISIS are now down.
Op Paris.
Hashtag Anonymous.
Hashtag expect us.
US us.
So good for them.
Good for Anonymous.
They're doing a good thing.
I can see a possible reason why the U.S. government might not consider it to be a good thing.
We monitor all those accounts, right, for chatter.
But from what I've heard, the real chatter that goes on is done with encrypted apps, which you can get anywhere.
You know, you get five minutes, you can get an encrypted app.
And so it's my understanding that's really how they're communicating.
Now, whether that would be true, I guess it would, I guess, from continent to continent as well.
Charlie Sheen declaring his bad boy days are over now.
And also he declared he's HIV positive.
Doing okay on medicine.
Matt Lauer on NBC asked him if he transmitted to anybody else and he declared impossible.
I don't know it would be interesting to have that defined.
Impossible really.
Maybe there is some reason that it's physically impossible.
What do I know?
So the world continues to shake, rattle, and roll, courtesy of ISIS, and we're going to have to get them.
I think that's it.
We're going to have to get them.
Would they have to be exterminated?
And that's generally a word you would only use with regard to vermin or bugs, right?
But I think that's the case with ISIS.
Extermination is called for.
And, you know, and I know that brings some angry retort out there.
And I know that there are liberals who just don't agree with it.
I say exterminate it.
They have to actually be.
The only thing they care about is killing us.
That's it.
That's all they care about, killing us.
They don't care if they have to give their lives to achieve that goal.
So, you know, I don't see what choice there is.
If you have something that just wants to kill you, then it seems to me that You've got to deal with it.
One way or the other, you've got to deal with it.
All right, coming up in a moment.
Quite a show, I would imagine.
Retired Lieutenant Colonel Kevin D. Randall has now, for more than 45 years, studied the UFO phenomenon in all its various incarnations, and there have been many.
Training by the Army as a helicopter pilot, intelligence officer, and military policeman, also by the Air Force as both an intel officer and a public affairs officer.
All that provided Randall with a keen insight into the operations and protocols of the military and into the UFO phenomenon, which has puzzled people for more than a century, including me.
During his investigations, he has traveled the U.S. to interview hundreds of witnesses who were involved in everything from the Roswell, New Mexico crash of 1947, the repeated radar sightings of UFOs over Washington, D.C. in 1952, to the very latest abduction cases.
Randall was among the first writers to review the declassified Project Blue Book files.
So he's been around for a while, right?
First to report on animal mutilations, alien abductions, alien home invasions, and among the first to suggest humans are working with extraterrestrials.
In a moment, Kevin Randall.
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In a moment, Kevin Randall.
When the day comes to settle down, to reach midnight in the desert via Skype worldwide, if on a computer, please be sure to use a headphone mic and call MITD51.
So, Kevin, we're going to talk about UFOs tonight, but maybe it really makes sense to start out asking you about what has been the biggest, I guess, news of the year of this sort, and that is, of course, the Kepler discovery of the megastructures around Star KIC 8462-852.
We have to remember that they are 1,480 light years away, Kevin.
And because of that, that would mean that this megastructure or megastructures that we're seeing, I believe it's many that they're seeing, would have been constructed 1,480 years ago.
So one can only wonder, you know, if you look at the past 50 years of our progress, Kevin, how much progress they would have made in the last 1,480 years.
Or go back to my grandparents being born before there were cars, before there were airplanes, before there was radio, before there was television in the late 19th century, the 1890s.
And look what they saw in their lifetime, Including people walking on the moon.
And now we look at it in our lifetimes, and you and I are discussing this on worldwide radio over something called the internet.
So you look back, you look back at what we've been able to do in the last 50 years, the last hundred years, and think if you had the technology, the technological base to build on, what you would be able to do, or what we would be able to do 1,500 years in the future.
There's just no telling how far we could range through the cosmos.
Well, it wasn't silly, but I mean, the Allen telescopes, Greenbank, turned their dishes toward the star for about a week.
They didn't hear anything.
And everybody went, oh, well, which is crazy because, number one, who's to say in this little tiny span of a week that we're going to hear anything at all or that we could hear anything at all from something that far away?
So it's just as valid today as the day they announced the possibility of these being megastructures.
The fact that the telescopes didn't hear any signals saying, yo-ho, Earth, doesn't mean a thing.
Well, but the radio signal would be coming from 1,480 years ago.
And you look at it from our point of view, also, we've been radiating radio signals for 120 years or so.
The thing that's always scared me about this is an alien race picks up the radio signals we're radiating, and what they get is like Laverne and Shirley.
They don't get the intelligent end of the spectrum.
The UFO dossier, and it is a follow-up on the government UFO secrets, which looked at what the U.S. government had been doing for 50 or 60 years.
This expands it out into a worldwide arena.
So we're looking at not only what the United States has done, but we're looking at it from a worldwide perspective.
And what we're seeing is how the U.S. has affected other nations in their UFO research and how they've kind of been able to manipulate things so that foreign governments aren't taking a serious look at UFOs because of what the United States Air Force and what the United States government has said.
So we're looking at all of that, but we look at the French reports, we look at things from Great Britain, we look at Australia, we look at a lot of different things telling us how they've investigated UFOs and what they found.
I think if you look at the evidence, you don't look at what people have said, what the opinions are, and you ignore, purposely you ignore some of the government studies that have been done because clearly they were biased and clearly they were designed with one goal, which was to end interest in UFOs.
But if you look at the totality of the evidence from the landing trace cases, the radar sightings that are also the visual radar sightings, if you will, you look at the photographic evidence that is available, you look at some of the recovered materials that have been analyzed, then you begin to understand that there's a good body of evidence of something going on.
Then when you bring in the observational data from a lot of pilots, scientists, educated people, what you see is overwhelming evidence that visitation is taking place.
We haven't seen any really overt hostile moves since this whole thing began.
And people say, well, it began in 1947 with Kenneth Arnold.
I think it actually began with the Foo Fighters during World War II.
And there's a continuity of intelligence work that started with the Foo Fighters during the Second World War that moved to the United States prior to the Arnold sighting and then became an official investigation.
So we've got this long history of looking at this information, these sightings taking place, observation of these craft around the Earth, and it doesn't seem that they're overtly hostile.
When there has been something that happened, it normally is either initiated by us or it's our approaching too close to their craft and being injured in that way.
It doesn't seem like they're injuring people on purpose.
So I'm not sure that we've got an invasion coming, but we've certainly got an observation going on.
And I suppose you could say, I did an article, one of my first articles, which was back in the 1970s, I called it Reconnaissance of Earth, which explained how the observations were going on.
And so you might say that's an ongoing reconnaissance building up to something like that.
But at this point, I just don't see the hostility that some others have seen.
Well, I don't mean right, and I could be completely wrong.
Yeah, I don't mean giant craft hovering over our cities or anything like that, you know, with death rays coming down.
It's Dr. Jacobs.
Yes.
You know Dr. Jacobs, and he thinks that this is an ongoing situation that we are being invaded slowly but surely by abductees, if you will, half human, half alien.
Yes, I've read his books and looked at his theories, and they're interesting, but it's not sure that the evidence completely supports that conclusion.
You know, there's some interesting evidence, and as you mentioned in the introduction, I think I'm the first one to report the aliens being inside a house, and this was the Pat Roach abduction that took place in 1973.
I reported it in Saga's UFO report in 1976, mentioning the aliens inside the house, and then the family or members of the family are moved outside to the ship for their examinations, that sort of thing.
So we see that sort of thing going on.
And I know Betty Hill talked about, I think she said at one point she thought there were a lot of little Betty Hills running around out in space, which would be suggestive of some sort of genetic experimentation taking place.
I haven't done an awful lot in the abduction arena recently because there are some abductions that are clearly trustworthy-based, meaning simply that it's a psychological phenomenon as opposed to something physical.
And I never felt qualified to deal with those sorts of people that might need the psychological help.
So I always try to, if somebody contacts me about an abduction problem, to direct them to one of the researchers who is involved in that sort of research, like Kathleen Martin, for example, who was the niece of Betty Hill.
I think I sent a number to Yvonne Smith because I thought their research and their qualifications for that kind of investigation were better than mine.
So I haven't done a lot with the abduction research in the last number of years.
I've concentrated more on a physical aspect of it, like the Roswell case, or looking at the documentation and trying to get that brought forward.
It may be the USB connection, or I'm not sure what it is, but if it continues, what I'll do is call you on the phone so we can get a connection without this noise.
So you did, I know, research the hell out of Roswell.
I mean, you really spent a lot of time on Roswell.
So I'd like to get your insights.
I know something I do want to get covered is that I believe you had some work done or someone had some work done on that famous memo that somebody was holding.
Well, the funk was that our technology has evolved to the point where we might be able to see something.
And using the latest software and some better microscopic camera equipment, that sort of thing, we thought if we could focus on that part of the negative, it might tell us something a little bit more.
We could read it to a greater degree than we have been able in the past.
There are some words that are readable in it, and almost everybody agrees that they're there.
I think it says Fort Worth, Texas at one point.
And the term weather balloons and disc seem to be almost universally accepted by people who have looked at this.
And we were hoping that by applying the latest technology, using getting new scans directly from the negatives, and the people at the University of Texas at Arlington were very helpful in that, getting some of the better scans and seeing if we couldn't use some of our latest software to kind of determine what was seen.
We've opened it up.
We've sent copies of those scans to a number of people, both at the believer end of the spectrum and the skeptical end of the spectrum, hoping that we can get some kind of a universal read on this.
And unfortunately, the going has been very slow, and we haven't been able to resolve some of the issues.
One of the key phrases was, victims of the wreck, apparently, is on this thing.
And if you look at it one way, it looks an awful lot like that term is there.
And if it says victims of the wreck, well, then you've got something that is very positive in the way of the Roswell crash.
But others have said, well, maybe it's viewing.
And if it's viewing, even if it's viewing of the wreck, then that takes it in a different direction.
So we've got some issues we're trying to work out on this and hoping that by opening it up to a wider range of people looking at it, that somebody might be able to resolve the issues to the satisfaction of most people.
I don't think we're ever going to be able to get everybody happy with a reading of this thing unless we could find the actual message somewhere to compare it.
But I think we could come to a point, or we'd hope to come to a point, where we could get a large majority of the people agreeing on what the text says.
I look at cases like Travis Walton and the Hills case as a more likely scenario because it seemed that they were targets of opportunity, that they're out in a remote area late at night or early in the evening, I guess, with Travis Walton, but they were sort of targets of an opportunity.
And I've talked to Travis Walton a couple of times.
I've talked to Steve Pierce.
I think Pierce first really began telling his aspect of the story two or three years ago, and I had an opportunity to sit down with him and get his point of view and learn what the ramifications have been for him.
He was on board that, yeah, Travis Walton was abducted.
But the thing is, I think Philip Klass had talked to Pierce and got the idea that Pierce wanted to be paid a great deal of money for his story to kind of out Travis Walton.
And I think it was the way Klass phrased the questions and Pierce misunderstanding it.
So it's not really that Pierce disagrees with what Walton says.
He actually, when I talked to him, suggested that the abduction was real, that there wasn't any kind of dispute amongst the people involved in that with Mike Rogers and Steve Pierce and Travis Walton and the other fellows involved.
There was really no dispute amongst them about what they'd seen and what had happened on there.
And it was class kind of manipulating the data for his own point of view, which we've seen any number of times with class manipulating data.
So Pierce was agreeing with what Walton said, but he talked about how he had been, I think it was Klass had talked about $10,000 and wanted Pierce to come out and say that Walton hadn't been abducted.
And it just, that kind of thing.
And Pierce didn't do it.
So that would speak highly of both Pierce and Walton, that he wouldn't take a bribe to deny the thing took place.
I mean, $10,000 to a guy who's at that end of the economic spectrum is a great deal of money.
That is what Steve Pierce had suggested to me, that Klass had been manipulating the data.
But I've seen Klass do that any number of times in the past.
I mean, you look at what he's done.
He went after James McDonnell because he didn't like his UFO research and got a number of his Navy contracts for atmospheric research canceled because the Navy didn't want to get involved in UFO research.
He went after a fellow at a private university for claiming that he had been involved in a UFO sighting, and the university's attitude was, screw you, Philip Klass, we don't care.
The Navy, because Aviation Weak and Space Technology did an awful lot of investigative reporting on that, didn't want to get caught up in something like that.
So, I mean, Klass manipulated the data frequently like that.
And from what I understand from Pierce, Pierce thought Klass was offering him $10,000 to tell the truth.
Any number of people saw a craft close to the ground.
It stalled their car engines.
It dimmed their headlights.
It filled their radios with static.
And then when it left, they could start their cars again.
They could drive off.
Their radios cleared up and the lights came back.
What happened was the Air Force claimed that there were only three witnesses to this event.
Don Tehoe, who was the director for NICAP, which was a civilian organization, said there were nine witnesses.
And the Air Force and NICAP were arguing about the number of witnesses rather than investigating the case.
And when I went back and looked at the Project Blue Book files and the files from QFOS, the Center for UFO Studies, and some other organizations, I found witnesses at 13 separate locations who had seen the craft on the ground and talked about it stalling their car engines and that sort of thing.
Here's an event where the craft is interacting with the environment.
You've got witnesses from the entire social economic spectrum.
You've got well-educated people.
You've got college people.
You've got people who finished high school.
You've got Pedro Sacito, who was the guy that I think reported it first to the sheriff, he was a Korean war veteran.
So you've got a wide range of people seeing this thing.
Now, Don Berlinson, who lives in Roswell, New Mexico, in 2000, went to Level Land and actually interviewed the daughter of the sheriff and the sheriff's widow.
And they said that the sheriff had been told by the Air Force not to talk about it to anybody.
Just say you saw the thing in the distance and let it go at that.
But according to the daughter, there was landing traces on a ranch near Level Land, Texas.
So you would have had a landing trace case which left physical evidence on the ground.
You've got the interaction with the environment, and you've got witnesses, independent witnesses, at 13 separate locations.
Now, about two hours after the sightings ended at Level Land, a series of sightings took place at White Sands, New Mexico, which may be directly related to this.
And I had an opportunity.
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There were four military policemen in the sightings.
But I had an opportunity to talk to one of the MPs.
And what is interesting here, there were four MPs involved.
The Air Force interviewed three of them.
The fourth one was unavailable because he was suddenly on a three-day pass.
Well, those of us who've been in the military understand that a three-day pass limits how far you can go, and you have to leave a contact number in case you have to come back.
So there's no reason for the Air Force not to interview that fourth guy unless the story I heard that the guy was actually in the hospital is true.
And I've been trying to get the morning reports from the military, which they've got them on file in St. Louis, to see if I can determine where that guy was that week the Air Force was doing the investigation.
But it was a series of sightings.
The skeptics or the debunkers wrote it off as, well, the guys got fooled by the moon or they got fooled by Venus.
And the fellow I talked to, a guy named Glenn Toy, said that They had seen the object come down in front of the mountains and hover not far above the ground, maybe 200, 300 yards away from them.
So they're seeing the object close to the ground.
They're not seeing up in the sky, and the clouds aren't fooling them and any of that stuff.
They're seeing it close to the ground.
And then it took off.
But one of the soldiers was apparently injured by this and was in the base hospital.
But the Air Force didn't investigate him.
And what I'd like to see is the morning reports to see if it will tell me that the guy was on pass or if he was, in fact, in the hospital.
Because there'd be no reason for the military to lie on the morning reports or the Army to lie on these morning reports.
They wouldn't believe that anybody would even look at that.
So they would explain where the guy was.
If he's not available for duty, they've got to explain where he is.
And if he was on a three-day pass, that would be in the morning report.
If he was in the base hospital, that would be in the morning report.
And I have not been able to get those.
I wrote for this stuff.
The people in St. Louis sent me a letter and says, well, you need to send us $8.30 so we can search the records, and you need to tell us a specific timeframe, and we won't look at anything more than 90 days.
I sent them a one-week timeframe.
And that was a response I got.
And I sent them the $8.30, and they sent the same form letter back and cashed my check for $8.30.
So I haven't been able to get the information about this guy, whether or not he was in the base hospital.
I know his name.
His last name was Eubanks.
He was like a Spec 4, an E4 at the time that this took place.
And I've tried to find the family, but the only people I've talked to, the fellow I was looking for, had passed away.
But I did talk to Glenn Toy, who was his partner that day.
But this is a series of sightings that the craft interacted with the environment.
The descriptions from the witnesses are pretty much similar.
And they were scattered all over the Texas panhandle from north of level land down south, I think, shallow water, Texas.
It's all right around the Lubbock, Texas area.
The Air Force sent an NCO to investigate, and he spent most of the day talking to a couple of people and said there's nothing to it.
It was caused by bad weather in the area.
Thunderstorms had moved through and all that.
James McDonald looked at it and says, no, the weather records don't support that there had been rain earlier in the afternoon, but not at 11 o'clock at night when the sightings began.
I think the problem was the questions were poorly phrased, and it went to specific places where the records wouldn't be kept anymore so that they could say, well, we have no records that are responsive to your request, which is not to say that the records don't exist.
It's just that the way you phrase your question might have been wrong.
Stephen Schiff, he was the congressional representative for the Roswell District of New Mexico at the time.
And he asked questions about it, and they said that some of the records from Roswell had been destroyed or improperly destroyed at the time.
And I mean, as an intelligence officer, part of my duties was to destroy classified material that was out of date.
But if it was classified secret or above, you had to specify specifically what the title of the document was and what the date of it was so you could demonstrate that it was destroyed.
If it was confidential or below, you could just say we destroyed the confidential material and let it go at that.
But these records would have been classified higher than that, so there should be a record of their destruction.
But they did say that some of the communications records had been missing from the Roswell area at that time.
And I'm not sure that is significant given the way some of these things are treated.
But they found no records.
The only thing they found the FBI document that we've all had for years.
They couldn't even find a copy that hadn't been redacted.
We all had copies so that the names that had been blacked out, we knew who they were and what was being said in the document.
They found that document.
They found some other things, but they didn't really find anything that was responsive.
The Air Force then put out this great huge report, which is basically a whole lot of nonsense about balloon projects in New Mexico at the time and a lot of documentation of that, which is wholly irrelevant, and claiming, well, see, it was this flight number four from Project Mogul that fell, and that was what fooled everybody.
And Mogul was this highly classified project.
The purpose was classified, but the stuff they were doing in New Mexico was not classified.
The name Mogul was known to the people who were doing it.
They were using regular weather balloons.
And the flight the Air Force pointed to, which was flight number four, the man who was running the experiments in New Mexico, a guy named Dr. Albert Crary, wrote in his diary that the June 4th launch had been canceled because of clouds.
They couldn't launch these things if there was clouds in the area according to the CAA regulations they were operating under.
So there was no flight number four to drop the debris.
So they have no explanation for what fell at Roswell.
But it gets very convoluted when you look at the minutiae that you have to go through to get to it because the Air Force came out and they force said, well, it was flight number four.
And the news media said, oh, it's flight number four was a secret balloon.
Let's go with that.
And they don't understand all the other thing, all the ancillary things that are going on around that.
From all the evidence that I've seen, the people I've talked to, I believe it was extraterrestrial, and there is a body of testimony from some very credible people that alien creatures were recovered.
All right, at this hour, we're getting breaking news.
A number of suspects apparently cornered in a building in the Paris suburb of St. Denise.
There has been gunfire reported.
So that's breaking at this hour, ongoing and fluid at this hour.
I don't imagine they'll be treated gently, although I would think they actually would want to get some alive so they can find out more about all of this.
But maybe they're not particularly interested in that much information.
Maybe they're more.
You know, you can imagine the police and military in France are more than a little upset about what's going on, as they should be.
And so whether anybody comes out of this live or not, we'll have to wait and see.
Anyway, that's ongoing at this hour.
Once again, here is my guest, Kevin Randall.
Hi, Kevin.
Hi, how you doing?
Okay, trying to keep up on events as they continue to occur.
All right, so I've got a sort of an overarching question for you, Kevin, and that is this.
We had, Roswell, we had a number of things that have happened since.
And I tried this out on Linda, and she gave me a different answer.
But it seems to me that in the years since the 50s, the number of UFO reports has been trailing off.
Now, I could be way off about that and wrong, but I mean, we have a world that carries high-resolution cameras around on its hipboard in its pocketbook now.
And you would think that the number of pictures of UFOs, if they really are hovering around out there, would be drastically increasing, or perhaps the number of UFOs hanging around out there actually isn't what it was.
Carl Flock and I talked about this a number of years ago, and what we looked at was the number of robust cases, like you got in the late 1940s, 1950s, into the 60s, up to about 1973 when they had the big occupant sighting wave in November of 1973.
And then it trails off from that point, just as you say, and it's just not the same kind of robust sightings.
You still get the lights in the sky.
You still get some of that stuff, but you just don't get the numbers.
And we wondered if it wouldn't be like a college expedition into an area where you found something interesting, an archaeological find.
You've gone in there, you've gathered all your data, and now you're back home analyzing it, preparing for your next expedition.
And we wondered if it wasn't something like that.
The problem I have with the availability of cameras is it is so easy in today's world to fake a good UFO video.
And it's very difficult to tell whether it's faked or not.
And that's the problem I have with the UFO videos today.
There's so many of them.
I had a friend, Russ Estes, who made a, a number of years ago, made a UFO tape, UFO sighting, a digital sighting.
And he made the UFO look really, really hokey because he didn't want to find it on the Internet at some point.
Well, but he did it on purpose to demonstrate how simple it was to fake a really good one.
And he made the UFO hokey so you could tell it was fake.
But he showed it coming across the sky.
He made the comments that you would make.
Oh, my God, what can that be?
And that sort of thing.
But he made it in such a way that it was clear that it was faked.
The point being simply that in today's environment with the computer equipment that's available to practically everybody, that a 10-year-old kid could make a very convincing UFO video.
The other thing that I noticed in my research was that about 99% of the UFO pictures were taken by teenage boys, and 99% of those are faked.
And we have seen a lot of the great pictures from the 50s and 60s.
The people who took them have come out and said, yeah, I faked that.
The one exception is the Lubbock Lights from 1951 taken by Carl Hart Jr.
I was on part of the Roswell investigation in Lubbock in 1995, and I picked up the phone book and looked up Karl Hart just on a lark, and he had a phone number.
So I called him to see what he had to say.
And he said, I mean, here's a guy who is now in his 60s.
If he was going to admit that he had faked it, now was the time to do it.
But he said, I still don't know what I photographed.
He wasn't sure it was alien.
He wasn't sure it was extraterrestrial.
He was just puzzled about what he had photographed.
He didn't know what it was, but he did not fake it.
So there's the exception, the rule.
He was 19 when he made the photographs.
And like I said, I talked to him in the mid-1990s, so he was a much older gentleman.
And a lot of the people, the teenagers, the young men who fake the UFO photographs would come forward and say, Yeah, I fake those.
No matter what you do in the way of the UFO spectrum, they're going to complain about it for some reason.
But that was my point is that the computer-generated graphics, images that you can do on your home computer can look so real.
Oh, yes.
That you don't need a Hollywood studio.
In the 1950s, there were two wonderful movies taken of UFOs, one in Great Falls, Montana in 1950 and one in Trumanton, Utah in 1952.
And they're basically lights in the sky, but they were taken on 16-millimeter movie camera.
And to do something like that, the people would have had to have some sophisticated Hollywood equipment to assist them in it.
Today's world, you know, my home computer can do that sort of thing and generate much better, much better UFO photographs and footage than came out of the world.
Well, it's the same investigative problem that we've always had.
It comes back to the credibility of the witness.
Who took the pictures?
Is it a teenage boy?
Well, there's a credibility problem right there.
But if you understand the background of it, if there's more than a single witness, if there's independent witnesses, what would be ideal is people in three separate locations photographing the same thing.
But you could not put together the triangulation that you could if you've got still footage.
There were problems with some of it.
Some of it was clearly flares.
Some of it was clearly a huge triangular-shaped craft moving across the state of Arizona.
And the photographic footage, you could not use it to triangulate that way, unfortunately.
But we need something like that, where you've got the people at multiple locations photographing the same thing at the same time.
And independently discovering these witnesses so you could get their stories.
You could get measurements from the photographs that they made.
And we just don't get that sort of thing.
And I was wondering, there was a picture taken of a meteor skipping back out of the atmosphere, taken over the Grand Tetons.
And I don't know how long ago I've seen the picture.
It's a wonderful picture of this meteor.
And there were people all over that part of Wyoming that got pictures, and a guy from Des Moines, Iowa actually got movie footage of it.
Wonderful, wonderful film.
And you're thinking, well, if we can do that with a meteor, which is a very short-lived event, and something that you, in the daylight like that, that you could actually film, why don't we have UFO sightings like that?
And the answer is because that meteor was 50 miles up in the sky or higher when it skipped out of the atmosphere.
And the UFOs are normally operating at much lower altitudes, so you don't have the wide range of people seeing that sort of thing.
So that's the kind of thing that we need.
I know that Ted Phillips, in his landing traces, he would tell you that if you gave him information from measurements that you took in the landing trace, he could tell you what kind of craft the people would have seen, which suggests a certain amount of repeatability and suggests a certain amount of scientific research that could be done by that sort of thing.
Okay, I was always impressed by the UFOs that appeared over our missile silos, Kevin.
There was an awful lot of cooperation of that.
Not only that, but it would seem an odd time for the missile silos to shut down.
And then there was a similar incident in Russia.
It seems to me that if UFOs are here, they would be certainly interested in our, I don't know, military capability, where we are, what we can do, that sort of thing.
But we have to look at it from the other point of view.
If you've got an outside source, which the UFO was, and it could shut down the missile systems so they could not launch, now you've got a national security issue.
Yeah, Kevin, the whole thing is a national security issue.
If you have things going through, wait a minute, going through your atmosphere at thousands of miles an hour, Kevin, and they are tracked by radar, and you don't know what they are and you can't stop them, you have a national security issue.
But shutting down the missiles, if the Soviets could have figured out how to do it, or we could have figured out how to do it to the Soviets, I mean, you've just suddenly changed the balance of power.
And so that became, in the sightings in Maelstrom Air Force Base in 1967, where they shut down the missile silos.
And the condom committee was investigating that.
And interesting, the guy who was the UFO officer at Maelstrom was a guy named Lewis, who was the pilot in command of the RV-47 sighting from 1957, which is kind of an interesting coincidence.
But when the condom committee Went to investigate, they said, Well, you know, we can't tell you it's classified.
And the guy says, Well, we have clearance.
And he said, No, this is national security.
And it's because they were shutting down the missiles.
And that's the key right there.
You've got something that the conding committee actually knew was a national security issue, and they said, Well, it doesn't affect national security.
Well, that affected it immensely.
And I think it scared a lot of people that something was able to shut down the missiles so they could not launch them.
They eventually came up with some kind of cockamame explanation about an EMP, an electromagnetic pulse, from an atomic explosion that had taken place sometime in the past.
They had an explanation, and they were happy with that because they could give that to the public, and the public doesn't understand what EMPs were, and that sort of thing.
And these things are supposed to be shielded so the EMP does not affect them.
So that made it an issue of national security that is much more ominous than them flying through the atmosphere at several thousand miles an hour and our fighters cannot catch up to them.
Seems to me the end of the blue book operation was something that said that whatever these things are, they're not a threat to national security or something like that.
They said that they pose no threat to a national security, and further study would not result in anything of a scientific value being learned.
And the Air Force was wasting its time.
If you look at them, and that was a result of the Condon Committee investigation at the University of Colorado.
And what you have to look at from that is 30% of the sightings in the Condon report were not explained.
One of them was explained as a natural phenomenon so rare it had never been seen before or since.
And I'm thinking, to my unscientific mind, that if you've identified a natural phenomenon that rare, maybe something of a scientific value could be learned by attempting to study that.
And then they said, you know, the Air Force had done a good job of their investigation.
And you look at a letter written by a lieutenant colonel named Hitler to the Condon Committee before they started their investigation.
And Hitler outlined exactly what they wanted the Condon Committee to find, and the Condon Committee found exactly those sorts of things.
I mean, he laid it out.
Say some nice things about what the Air Force has done.
It doesn't pose a threat to national security, and we should conclude the investigation.
That's what the Condon Committee said.
Condon was at a speech in Corning, New York, 18 months before the end of the study period, and he said to the scientists there, I'm inclined to tell them that there's nothing to this and they should end this thing right now, but I'm not supposed to reach that conclusion for another 18 months.
So, I mean, we've got all that evidence that the Condon Committee was a put-up job, and yet we still have scientists citing it as proof that there's no such thing as UFOs.
Now, with respect to what I asked you a little while ago, all the stuff that went on in the 40s and 50s, when it was really just going nuts, I mean, even over the White House, UFOs were all over the place, and people did get pictures of them.
But as we posited a little while ago, everybody's got a camera now.
The sightings are down.
Do you think it's possible that whoever they are, they took a look at us, they assessed us, and they're not much coming around anymore?
I think, and that's kind of what Carl Flock and I discussed, was that they came, they gathered their information as quickly as they could, which took several years, and then they went home to analyze it.
And so they're in the process of analyzing and setting up their next expedition to Earth to see what's going on.
I think personally, Carl Sagan said at one point that we could expect a visitation from an alien race once every 10,000 years.
He didn't tell me when we could start counting that.
But I'm thinking if I'm a space-faring race and I come to Earth even 5,000 years ago and I see the beginnings of civilization, I see intelligent life, I'm going to want to come back frequently to see how that intelligent life is developing and what they're doing.
So you would expect them to make more visitations as our societies grew, as our civilization grew.
But in the last, what, 25, 30 years, we just don't see that sort of thing going on.
And the conclusion that I've sort of come to is they're home analyzing the data they collected.
If you look at the 1973 sightings, the six weeks, you know, last two weeks in October, all of November, the first two weeks in December, you've got a lot of sightings of the craft on the ground.
You've got a lot of sightings of the occupants.
You've got a lot of abduction cases.
And it looks like they're gathering data.
They're gathering data.
They're not analyzing it.
They're gathering it to take home so they can analyze it once they get back to their home worlds.
And that makes some sense to me.
And it would explain why we don't get the robust sightings that we used to get.
And I think maybe another problem is we are now more sophisticated, meaning that things that would have fooled us 50 years ago, we identify now as something natural.
We understand what that natural phenomenon is, and so we don't bother reporting what would have been a UFO.
And the thing is, you have to look at all the evidence, And there's an awful lot of people, especially when we go back into the 1940s, 1950s, that didn't understand the natural phenomenon around us.
Ball lightning, which kind of cracked me up in the 1960s before science said, yes, there is such a thing as ball lightning.
The Air Force actually used that as an explanation for a UFO case.
And I'm thinking, how can you use a phenomenon that is not scientifically proven to explain something else that's unusual?
But I think if you look at the sighting reports that we get today, we don't get as many reports of things that can be explained as natural phenomenon.
We've become more sophisticated in what we're seeing.
Well, I think, Evan, if the government doesn't want us to believe in UFOs, then they've taken exactly the wrong tack.
I remember when they did their big presentation about Roswell, and they put the dummies on TV, and it was the most laughable insult to intelligence that you could ever imagine.
And it's like, you know, once they put on something like that, it's like, what a bunch of lying idiots.
But now, 20 years later, the reporters are saying, well, the Air Force explained all that as these anthropomorphic dummies that were dropping in high-altitude tests.
But today, I think the news media today, they want to think of themselves as sophisticated, they don't believe in UFOs, and nobody else should.
These two clowns in New Jersey launched a number of hot air meteorological balloons with flares attached to them to prove how credulous UFO sighters are and investigators are.
And if you go back and you look at the investigation, you see that the UFO investigators, Mark D'Antonio from MUFON, the photographic expert, looked at the videotape and said immediately, that's either feral airs on a balloon or Chinese lanterns.
I mean, he identified it immediately.
And you talked to some of the police officers, and they knew it was balloons with flares on it.
And you listen to the witness statements, they're explaining exactly what they saw.
They're not bringing in aliens.
They're not talking spacecraft.
They're telling, I saw these lights.
They traveled across the sky.
They didn't make any noise.
And in one point, they seemed to be flickering.
And the news commentator commented about that.
And the woman who'd seen it said, no, no, that's because it was passing behind the trees.
And so that's why it seems to be flickering that way.
They explained exactly what they wanted.
But you get the news media, and you've got some reporter out there, and she's interviewing a little kid with her lollipop, and asked the little kid, well, do you think there's aliens?
Where did that come from?
That's preposterous.
We're interviewing a kid, and we're talking about aliens, but they're too sophisticated to believe in this stuff.
Kevin, if the UFO phenomenon, whatever it is or isn't, is true, how is it the U.S., and we are the main people that do this, have been able to keep the lid on it for so long now?
Well, interesting, you brought that up because in the UFO dossier, I was looking at the Australian investigation of UFOs.
And the guy that wrote the original report in Australia had quoted some stuff from Don Kehoe about his opinions on UFOs and the government conspiracy to hide the information.
The Australian Air Force got the report, and they called and asked the U.S. Air Force, what's going on with this Kehoe guy?
And the Air Force mocked Kehoe and said, well, he's a liar.
He's just out trying to make money.
He's just drawing all these conclusions based on things that he's made up.
The documents he's saying existed, don't exist, and all that sort of thing.
So the Air Force, the Australian Air Force, believing the United States Air Force on this, wasn't very interested in UFOs.
Turned out that we can now sit here in 2015 and look at what Kehoe was saying and say, yeah, Kehoe was basically right.
Kehoe had it on the money.
He was talking about documents that existed.
He had talked to people on the inside.
He was telling them what was going on.
But the U.S. Air Force, and I probably should make it clear that the guys, the U.S. Air Force guys talking to the Australian Air Force guys, may not have been feed into what was going on.
They were just responding to what their superiors had told them.
But the U.S. Air Force kind of drove the Australian investigation and set it into the same tumbling atmosphere that our UFO investigation was so that the people don't know what they're seeing and they're making mistakes and all of this sort of thing.
And it turns out that there's some very good cases that came out of Australia.
But that's kind of how they do it.
And if you look at the Rendlesham Forest case, which is the Air Force guy seeing the object in the woods in Rendlesham Forest in Great Britain, and I think it was Nick Pope, who was in the Ministry of Defense at one point, pointed out that the documentation that was exchanged between the United States and Great Britain at the time was the Americans saying, well, this happened on British soil.
It's your baby.
It's your hot potato.
You need to deal with it.
And the British were saying, no, no, it was American airmen stationed at an American base that made the sightings.
You guys need to deal with it.
And so they're arguing about who's going to deal with this thing, and nothing's getting done.
And our airmen, Burroughs and Pendleson specifically, were apparently injured by their close approach to the UFO.
And I think Burroughs just recently got a full disability from the Air Force, admitting that he was injured in the line of duty, not admitting that there was a UFO involved in the future.
We had the Stevensville sightings, which were very good.
We had, well, you go back to 1986, and we had the Japanese JAL, I think it was, what, 1628 flight that was radar tracked, and the complete radar records exist so that the FAA was able to recreate the sighting sort of in real time, the whole 28 minutes or 32 minutes or whatever it was.
And I talked to John Callahan about that, and he was, you know, they could watch the object on the radar screen and what was going on.
So he didn't have an explanation for it.
And he said that he'd gone to the White House to brief somebody about that sighting.
And there were a number of CIA guys there, and the CIA guys said to him, we were never here.
Don't talk about this.
So he had all this data, good evidence, the instrumentality being involved in the sighting, not only that and the witness statements.
I was never able to figure out whether there were two ground-based radar stations involved or one, because it seemed that there was one site picking up the radar images, but it was transmitted to the Air Force and to the FAA, and they used different filters and discriminators on it.
So it may have been a single radar source on the ground, but the radar on the airplane also saw the object.
Kevin, it seems to me if this is an advanced race that's come light years to get to us for reconnaissance or whatever reason they're here for, if they don't want to be seen, Kevin, it seems to me they would have the technology to completely escape any sort of detection at all.
And the fact that we do see them, to me, says that they don't mind that they're being seen and or they want to be seen.
My guest is Kevin Randall, and for many years, I guess almost all his adult life, he has been investigating ufology.
And when I said earlier that, you know, really in recent years, there have not been that many gigantic UFO sightings, something on the level of Roswell.
Of course, we've had the Phoenix lights, but I frankly expected him to disagree with me, as Linda Motenhow did, and as Peter Davenport did.
And they both think that actually UFOs are on the increase.
Let me do this.
Let me ask about the latter part of your book, Kevin, which documents an awful lot of humanoid encounters, encounters with alien beings in your book.
What I did was I wanted to bring the book into the 21st century, naturally.
And Peter Davenport was actually helpful with this as well.
But I got in touch with a number of people who had been collecting UFO sightings.
And so what I have there is the raw data, thinking that others may wish to investigate the case.
If a case is in your backyard, for example, you might be interested in trying to find out a little bit more about it.
So I'm trying to encourage others to take a look at some of these cases.
And I settled on the humanoid cases because I found those to be more interesting than the lights in the sky.
I mean, lights in the sky are basically lights in the sky, and it really doesn't advance our knowledge to investigate those in depth.
But if you've got a humanoid report where something's going on on the ground or close to the ground, then you've got something that's a lot more interesting and a lot more robust.
Now, I had a lot of raw data, and I eliminated some of it simply because it seemed to me to be quite credulous.
Some of it was not in the United States.
And in those cases, I wanted to focus on the United States For obvious reasons.
But I just thought that this raw data would be of interest to people.
And I know that when I was first beginning my UFO investigations, this sort of data would have been very valuable to me, especially if I could find something from around my home turf.
And that was what I did when I lived in Texas, when I was on active duty in the Army and I lived in Texas.
I would go out to the UFO sighting areas in Texas.
In fact, went to Aurora, Texas, to talk to them about the UFO crash there in 1897 and actually talk to some people, because this was the early 1970s.
I talked to people who had been alive in 1897 and remembered or alleged to have remembered some of the events that took place then.
So I thought that this kind of raw data would be of interest to people and it allowed them to get more engaged in UFO research.
They might find an explanation.
There was a case here in Iowa where a man and a woman had seen a number of UFOs coming close to the ground, and the woman reported that she'd seen the two alien shapes in the lights.
And I went out and talked to her, and she had a very robust story.
I went out and talked to him, and he said, I don't know what she's talking about, because all we saw were lights.
And I went to the actual location where they had seen the UFOs and realized what they had seen, and that they were close to the municipal airport.
And if the landing pattern was right, you got the impression of these lights coming down out of the sky and just sort of disappearing behind the trees.
And that, I am convinced, what they saw.
But it was an opportunity for me to go out and investigate a case on my own and learn something about it and get some insight about how these things transpired.
So that was kind of the point of putting these sightings at the end of the book, is to bring it into the 21st century, but give people an opportunity to go out and investigate on their own.
And I would have told you before we did the book that I didn't believe the case.
I thought he was making the thing up because that was basically the Air Force conclusion.
This was 1957, again, not long after the Level Land sightings.
And you go back and you look at the Air Force file on the Stokes case.
Stokes was an engineer at White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base.
And he said that he was going from Alamogordo to El Paso, and the road there goes to a place called Oro Grande.
And he came to a place where there's a number of cars stalled.
And his car began to stall, and he pulled over to the road, and there were six or seven cars there, and they were watching this UFO overhead swing by and do some things.
And after it disappeared, he realized he had a light sunburn on part of his face and on part of his arm where he was looking out the window of the car.
When he got back to Alamogordo, he called his boss and told him what he had seen and what had happened.
His boss actually alerted the media.
The skeptics say, well, the first thing he did was call the media.
No, he didn't do that.
He called his boss.
His boss called the media.
Coral Lorenzen from APRO and her husband Jim lived in Alamogordo at the time.
So they got in touch with Stokes.
He went to the radio station.
They saw this reddishness on his arm and his face that he had the light sunburned.
They talked to him.
They got an interview with him.
The Air Force finally investigated a couple of days later, and they said, well, we saw no evidence of the sunburn.
Well, yeah, it faded by then, guys.
Come on.
And they said, well, you know, he said there were six cars.
Then he said there were seven cars.
Well, he didn't count the cars.
Who cares?
He provided a drawing, and so you can see how many cars were lined up there.
The only problem with the case is he provided the names of two people who may have been working at White Sands, but nobody ever found those guys to corroborate his story.
But he went to the hospital.
He was treated in the hospital.
The news media, the radio station guy there interviewed him.
He thought it was very credible.
He put it on the news wire.
And then, of course, the news media went nuts over this thing.
But it's an interesting case.
And the Air Force wrote it off and said, well, Stokes claimed to be an engineer, and he's not.
Well, he'd been a 20-year man in the Navy.
He was working as an engineer at Holloman Air Force Base.
His boss referred to him as an engineer.
And not long after this event, got promoted into a position of more responsibility.
So everybody saw him as an engineer.
So the fact he said he was an engineer, but he didn't have formal training, who cares?
You know, that's the kind of smear they would do to these people.
Well, he said he was an engineer, but we can find nothing, no college credits to suggest that.
Well, Moondust began in 1957, but Moondust had a UFO component to it, and it was being investigated.
It investigated UFO sightings.
Moondust investigated UFO sightings.
Senator Jeff Bingaman from New Mexico wrote to the U.S. Air Force, United States Senator Jeff Bingaman, and said, I'd like to know something about Project Moondust.
And the Air Force response is there's no such mission.
When the Air Force was presented with the documentation that was inadvertently released Through FOIA by the State Department that says Project Moondust on it, and it says UFO on it.
The Air Force said, we'd like to amend our last statement.
Moondust did exist, but we never used it.
I found at least 13 instances where moondust was deployed into foreign nations to study UFO, to pick up UFO-related materials.
They asked the U.S. Air Force, the U.S. government, what they thought of UFOs, and they figured that the United States was the experts on this because we've been running these investigations for so long and talking about it.
And so they deferred to the United States.
They assumed they were getting the straight dope from the United States, that there's nothing to this.
And we can now show that, like I said before, that there was something to it.
And the Air Force was, at best, simply, the officers who were responding to the Australians were simply misinformed.
That's the simplest explanation, or they were purposefully misguiding the Australians.
So you've got that sort of thing going on.
But it's clear that this investigation, in 1985, when Moondust was compromised, I think it was Robert Todd sent a letter to the FOIA request asking what the new name of the project was, and he was told it is properly classified and not releasable.
So all they did was change the name from Moondust to something else, and we have not found out what that name was.
But as late as 1985, we knew they were still investigating UFOs based on the documentation.
I think they're just here to see what's going on and study the course of our civilization, see where we're going.
I see nothing to suggest they're hostile unless you subscribe to David Jacob's theory that they're interbreeding with us and creating a race of hybrids for some nefarious purpose.
Yeah, but the big invasion stories are a lot more fun.
But no, I understand exactly what you're saying.
And that's my thought is, too, you modify the population or your population for that matter, because you're doing it both, to inhabit this environment that we have created, the environment we have here.
But I guess you can look at that as hostile intent.
It's certainly not benign, but I've always thought of them as being not overtly hostile.
Well, look, Kevin, if that would be true, if they're, let's say, taking human fetuses that are partially developed and taking these from women who have been pregnant and suddenly are not pregnant, a lot of information about all of that, then to me, that's hostile.
No, I just'm struggling with the concept of hostility, I guess, because it seems to be much more benign than the alien invasion that is so much fun in the movies.
And I've never understood that anyway, why they would have to invade us the way they always do in the movies, but that's a whole other argument.
Yes, I understand that, and I was getting to that point.
I'm just saying if you're interested in that sort of thing, then you don't need to come to Earth to get it.
If you're interested in the fact that the planet's in the Goldilocks zone and you need a space for your people, then the Earth becomes much more attractive because we're in the Goldilocks zone.
So it really depends on what your mission is and what you're looking For to do.
And I just don't struggle with the hostility of it because it seems to be rather benign the way they're doing it.
But it is an attempt to take over without firing a shot.
I mean, if you were a woman and you had a pregnancy and then one day suddenly it was gone and you had some sort of encounter, you might consider it very hostile indeed.
And if somebody's playing with our genetic structure, until I know otherwise, to me, that seems rather hostile.
They had the last I had heard on them, seen it on that, is they were estimating that they had an oblate spheroid star, which was pulsing and looking rather strange.
And they had graphed out some graphs indicating what they had estimated this would look like in the laboratory compared to the graphs seen and recorded from spatial observations.
And my own personal background is in sciences and chemistry and things like that, looking at graphs and traces of hyperchromatin and everything.
I'm trying to follow breaking news from Paris as we continue with the Kevin Randall interview.
Certainly, the suspects are pinned down.
It was known that one of those suspects that did not set off his vest probably is still in possession of that vest.
So that could explode, I suppose.
We know there's gunfire going on.
It's a very, very fluid situation.
And I'm going to try to continue to update you as I can.
But these are ongoing events, and I want to be very careful not to say something that is simply not true at this hour.
Just know that they do have them pinned down, or some of them pinned down.
So here we go.
Let's go back to Kevin and the phone line, and let's go to Las Vegas for Kevin Randall.
unidentified
Hi.
Hi.
I have some information about the Travis Walton situation.
That case was investigated when it happened by the local Newfound office that was down in, or chapter I guess, that was down in either the Phoenix area, it could have been up in Fountain Hills, and also simultaneously By another UFO organization called Ground Saucer Watch, which was also in Phoenix.
Well, they came up with exactly the same scenario: that the logging company that Walton and his friends worked for had a contract that they could not fulfill, and that they had to come up with a story that would say that their employees were afraid to go into this one area, which, by the way, Travis Walton's family had a cabin right up in that area.
So this was the story that they came up with, and that the story was just a complete fraud.
Now, I saw an extensive interview on television by one of the news channels in which they interviewed the man who gave the first lie detector test to him.
And he was considered the finest lie detector expert in the state of Arizona and actually did the work for the FBI in Arizona.
And he was there, and I mean, they interviewed him right there, and out of his own mouth came the words that he had been contacted by the National Inquirer and hired by them.
And they said that they did not want him to tell anybody, even in his family, where he was going.
And he said he would not do that.
And that he was, they told him he was going to this hotel where he would do the polygraph.
So they said, well, okay, they relented.
You can tell your wife what hotel you're going to be at.
He administered the lie detector tests to all of them.
And he said all of them failed.
And at that point, the National Enquirer took him into another room in the hotel.
The National Inquirer helped Jim Lorenzen and Apro finance the first polyograph examination, and the guy said that he saw, I think it was actually Walton, he believed that Walton was trying to defeat the polyograph through various techniques.
And so he decided that it was an indication of deception.
But I mean, I've even talked to people down there.
I lived in Arizona for almost 30 years, and I've talked to someone from GSW, who is the head of GSW, and I've seen this guy interviewed, and everybody else who were the first people who were testing him and investigating, they all say that this is a completely made-up story.
The examiner who gave the test came up with one inconclusive from the group.
Walton and everybody else other than the inconclusive, and that's not a negative, passed.
I mean, that's a fact.
unidentified
That's not what he said on television.
I did four years of public corruption investigation.
I come from a big-time newspaper family, and you always take the first story that's told because after that, everybody has time to cover their ass and come up with a different story.
And I will go with the guy who was head of GSW who investigated, and I'll go with the political.
For those who don't know, Mr. Klass is a debunker extraordinaire.
unidentified
Yeah, I am aware of that.
But as I say, I talked to the head of GSW, and I had talked to somebody from UFON, and I watched the extensive interview on television, and I'm going with that.
Well, I was going to say the nonsense about the contract is something that Philip Klass spewed in an attempt to provide a motivation for them creating this tale.
But it turns out that even though they had not finished their contract on time, they got an extension, and there was really no pressure on them.
There were quite a number of reports throughout Arizona, from Tucson, I think, all the way up to Kingman, of an object, a triangular-shaped object.
Sometimes it was brightly lighted, sometimes it wasn't.
But there's a number of reports about that object.
And I think of some of the footage from Phoenix itself that probably were flares, but there were a lot of other sightings in the area around Phoenix and throughout Arizona of a larger object that traversed the entire state.
So there's some good information and evidence of this whole thing.
unidentified
Wow.
Yeah, no, that's exactly.
That sounds pretty close to what I remember seeing.
And I was in a car with other people, and we've talked about it since then.
But I just had no other idea because there had other stuff that had gone on.
If they were friendly, I would think they would just come down and say hi to everybody.
And if they were malevolent and they have all this genetic research technology and they can just fiddle with whatever they want, wouldn't it just be easier just to make a virtuous and send it down this place to the whole planet?
Well, I've always thought of a lot of this as the prime directive, which was observe but don't meddle.
Kind of an anthropological point of view where you observe the primitive people and see how their society works without really injecting anything from your culture into it.
So if you're a space-faring race, it'd be much easier to observe what we're doing on Earth without getting involved in our day-to-day lives.
So I've always kind of thought of it as the prime directive, observe but don't participate.
And that's a fairly benign thing, but there's always the possibility that we're dealing with more than one race.
So one or two races may be benign and one of them is kind of malevolent.
I think that if you're looking at it, there probably is more than one race involved.
And I think that if there is any kind of galactic communication out there, and I don't know that there is, but if you're involved in that and you tell your pals on another star system, you know, you've got to go out to take a look at Earth, see what they're doing, that it would inspire them to come and take a look at it as well.
So there may be more than one group involved.
And I know that there is some evidence, some suggestion that there's more than one race involved.
And if you look at the information from the abductees, for example, you get a wide variety of descriptions of the creatures involved.
If anybody wants to, you know, check out some of my Skywatches.
But what I wanted to ask the guest was, I always had a thought of why, you know, at least our government, you know, will not disclose anything and kind of get his opinion.
In other words, that if our government knows they are there and our government is powerless to do anything about it, then obviously they would not want to admit that to the citizenry that it supposedly serves.
You could suggest that religions might take a bad look at it because they're usurping their territory.
But that's often been a thought that one of the reasons they don't want to talk about it is because shift the balance of power.
If you go back to 1947 with the Arnold signing and all of that stuff, you can make the case that they're now dealing with something they don't Understand completely, and they're trying to get an opportunity to understand it, and they don't want to admit that they don't have all the answers.
So, you've got a good reason for them to hide the information.
I mean, we just come out of a very disastrous war, and they don't want to suggest anything like that.
Why this attitude persists into the 21st century, I couldn't tell you, because I think people are sophisticated enough, and we've had enough of the fictional accounts of Star Trek and that sort of thing that I don't think people would just come unglued about it.
And if you say, well, they've been here since 1947, they've been here since 1940, people are going to say, you know, I've lived my whole life and it's not affected me one whip.
Why do I care?
So I don't understand why the cover-up persists today.
Well, you've got to believe me when I tell you I have talked to a number of religious people, Kevin, and if you ask them the right way, they will quite readily tell you that if a race of aliens were to land and know nothing of God or know nothing of religion, that it would destroy their religious universe.
There is but one God, and that God would have to be everywhere.
And if that God is not everywhere, what they believe would be threatened.
And I mean severely threatened.
It would upset their...
Let's go to the phone.
And South Dakota, I think.
unidentified
I am the Good Voice Whistle.
And through our Native American ceremonies, you know, there are plenty of times that when we are conducting our ceremonies, that there are UFOs above our ceremonies.
And as we go in our ceremonies, there are UFOs above them.
And as we conduct our ceremonies and we come out, they start.
And as we sit out to our ceremonies, you know, the UFOs that you guys explain, or that you guys, I'm not you, Art, but as the scientific world explains them, UFOs, well, they come and they circle around as we come out of our ceremonies.
They blink, they drop down.
You know, they never physically show themselves, but, you know, as the world turns, you know, that's our grandfathers.
We all come from Plato.
So as we come out of our ceremonies and we see these UFOs come down and, you know, not physically down to the land, but they blink, you know, they give us signs.
I would say that American natives who are at least outside have a far greater chance to see a UFO than most of the rest of us who never see anything except the ceiling and the TV in front of them.
If you take a look at the statistics, you see that most people, most UFO sightings take place between 6 p.m. and 9 p.m. when you'd be outside barbecuing or whatever.
You know, that sort of thing.
The sightings seem to correspond to people who are outside doing stuff.
In other words, if you don't look up, you're not going to see something.
That's really what it boils down to, right?
Between 6 and 9, as you point out, people are outside more likely to at least glance upward if they detect some sort of movement.
But 90% of the time, 99% of the time, uh-uh, Wayne on Skype, you're on the air.
unidentified
Yeah, I'm trying to put all this UFO stuff together.
You know, looking at the trillions of dollars that have disappeared into black projects and, you know, we had a Lockheed talking about all this incredible technology that we'll never know about.
And then I thought of the time, it was back in the 60s when the government determined that UFOs were not a threat to national security.
I wonder sometimes if really what they meant to say is they are no longer a threat to national security.
You know, I've often wondered, you know, we tend to personify aliens as thinking and being kind of like us in maybe our worst aspects or they may be our best aspects.
But what if they're just kind of bumbling guys who, you know, 100,000 years ago, their civilization developed all this technology and it just fixes itself and they don't have to do anything except fly these things.
And they've just kind of lost the connection to any kind of industrial development or any of this kind of thing.
And, you know, and maybe they didn't even know how their own craft worked until we figured it out.
Yeah, when you were saying about how if they came down and they had no idea of what God was or religion, that all of religion would you know be lost, I guess.
I said that the ones who called me presented with what I presented them with, said their faith would be shattered.
That's what they said.
unidentified
No, no, no, I understand that.
Yeah, what I'm saying is I think it would be a lot more like they would be bringing a message to us, kind of like what the Europeans did when they came over to the Americas.
They brought religion with them and tried to impose this idea to the people of the Americas.
I think it would be similar with these beings coming down.
They probably have something to tell us or try to convince us to convert to.
But I also wanted to hear Kevin's opinion of the possibility of them being time travelers from our future.
And that's one of the main reasons why the government doesn't want to disclose any of this because they're aware of it.
And they have an agreement with us from the future not to disclose anything because it could be damaging to what's supposed to play out.
I've always said that my opinion is if we're dealing with an alien race from another planet, it's probably the most likely explanation.
Time travelers, not quite as likely given some of the physics involved in time travel, could be interdimensional.
So there's a number of possibilities if you begin talking about beings and structured craft and that sort of thing, and they would need some kind of a machine to travel back in time.
So it's a possibility.
I think more likely it is alien creatures from another star system, but time traveler is certainly a possibility.
I sent you a wormhole on this, but I had an idea on a phone app that I've been looking for something like it, but sort of like an Amber Alert, something where.
But there was an FBI document I read, and I think I mentioned it in the government UFO files, where an FBI agent had gone to a lecture in 1960 of, I think it was George Van Tassel in Denver.
And he commented at the time that the audience skewed very old.
And it was, you know, little gray-haired ladies and gray-haired men, and there wasn't a lot of youngsters in the audience.
And so I think we're, but, but somehow, somewhere, the youngsters like me came from to move on.
But I don't know, I guess I don't know personally anybody, anybody, I don't know anybody myself.
All right, staying current with what's going on in France.
It appears the French Justice Minister is now saying the raid is coming to an end with apparently three police killed.
Sorry to hear that.
One civilian shot as well.
So it looks as though they have closed in in France, and I'm sure the story will unwind through the night.
But they've been hot after it, and it looks like it's paid off.
Whether we're going to learn anything as a result of all this, I don't know if anybody's left alive who can talk, but it doesn't sound like it at this hour.
Nevertheless, it's a fluid situation, and whether it's really over or not, the French minister says yes, we shall see.
Ongoing in France right now.
And once again, Kevin Randall, sorry, a lot of news breaking during your stay here, Kevin.
And I would think that even if they've killed all the terrorists, there'd be documents and hard drives and things they can recover some information from.
She was a Native American, and in her book, she said that just before this age, the age of Kali, you know, it started about 10,000, 12,000 years ago, that part of the people knew that the people on the surface of the Earth would be going kind of nuts for a while.
And so they kind of went underground and took their technology with them.
So with this, it wouldn't necessarily be aliens or time travelers, but part of us that, you know, went underground to avoid going kind of nuts.
Yeah, Kevin, I've got actually two questions for you.
With the difficulty of trying to release footage and photos of potential sightings, what do you think is potentially the best way to do that to actually have a subjective and critical assessment of what actually was recorded?
Well, you've got to talk to the witnesses, and hopefully there's more than one.
And if you can find independent witnesses who can verify the sighting, that will increase the credibility.
And it depends on what the footage looks like, how long it lasts, and what is being done.
But when you're dealing with something like a photograph or video footage, it really comes down to the witness and who he or she is, what is their history.
Are they practical jokers?
Are they serious people?
Are they well educated?
Do they understand what's going on around them?
And are there independent witnesses that can help corroborate the story?
You know, Kevin, they say now that, check me if I'm wrong here, but all the police will tell you that independent witness testimony is one of the most unreliable things that you can depend on, whether it's a robbery and trying to describe the robbers or anything else.
Independent witness testimony is inevitably wrong or screwed up.
Then you've eliminated one way of assessing the sighting.
You've got the video footage.
The other thing is you have to be careful in the way you ask questions.
You say, did the car stop at the stop sign?
Or do you say, did the green car stop?
Well, you've just implied the car is green and you've kind of screwed up your investigation.
But if you've got video footage, you absolutely have to have independent witnesses to it, somebody seeing the object in the sky from another location, or it's going to be very difficult to verify the credibility of the sighting.
Let me refer you to even recent incidences where either the police have shot a suspect or gotten into a puzzle and then ended up killing a suspect one way or the other.
There have been witnesses that have come forward and just have been totally wrong, absolutely wrong, about the way it came down, even though they were looking at it.
When you're investigating a case and you're talking to the witnesses, you have to be very careful and you have to gather the testimony very carefully.
The case from Mount Vernon, Iowa, where the woman was seeing a dome-shaped craft with aliens in it, and the guy said, no, I don't know what the hell she's talking about.
There were just these lights coming down in the sky.
Yeah, no, I was just going to say, I think given the actual topic at hand, having multiple sightings by multiple people that can correlate, say, video footage could work effectively.
But when it's isolated to images, perhaps not as much because obviously images are easier to fake.
My second question to you is, over the many years of research that you've done and things that I've come across, I've noticed that when you have three objects together, more often than not, they're very much in a triangle formation, which I find quite interesting.
And it makes me wonder if there's any correlation between that and the all-seeing eye that basically presented itself through history.
I'm just curious what your comments would be on that.
Well, the only thing I'll say is that if you've got three objects, they're pretty much either in a straight line or in a triangle or an arc of some kind, which I guess could be a triangle.
So you have to be careful on that one.
But I'm not sure there's a correlation between the all-seeing eye and UFO sightings.
I'm not sure there's a correlation there, which is not to say there isn't.
And I hope we see some apps coming out because what a great way to proceed.
unidentified
Truly, truly a great, and Art, I would hope you'd get your name in the midst of this union of money, or what do they call those new funding groups.
So here's my position.
In my tiredest of moments, I'm convinced that we're a penal colony or some type of feedstock, okay?
But looking on the brighter side of it, I have a question here, and I get to briefly.
But I think we're about to find out that like the jungle floor teeming with life, we're way in the midst of so many things.
And the fascinating quest is going to be to find how they hold galactic order, because I think we're going to find there's so many life forms out there that are ahead of us.
Now, here's my question.
And thanks for your show.
It's really fast moving.
I don't know how NASA continues to escape accountability.
We own those people, and there's no reason why they couldn't have cameras for us and couldn't be accountable, especially with the telescopes and stuff up there.
I'm astounded these people could escape accountability and be right in the midst of it all.
And I guess unless you have a question, I'll hang up or whatever you want to do here.
And I was also thinking of the tracking stations, the Air Force tracking stations with the Aerospace Command or whatever it is, where they're looking at this stuff, but we never hear if they see anything extraordinary going out from or coming to the Earth.
So there's all kinds of information gathering entities out there that would be very valuable to us if we could access the information in real time.
Well, actually, they died as a result of an aircraft accident, and it was only coincidental that they had been to Oregon to meet with Kenneth Arnold and E.J. Smith, who was the airline captain, who'd seen a number of UFOs on July 4th.
And they met with Christman and Dahl in Arnold's hotel room.
So I'm very familiar with the case, and I am among those who dismisses it.
unidentified
Well, I do know this.
I know that in Kelso, Washington, where that B-25 crashed, there is a museum there today, a little city museum, and they have parts of that aircraft that crashed.
And they also have pieces of the slag that dropped from one of those UFOs.
There were six donut-shaped craft that appeared over Harold Dahl's boat.
Well, George Early, who lives in Oregon, has did a great deal of work and investigation on this case.
And so I would think of him as the authority on it.
And he did a number of articles for the old UFO magazine.
If you can dig those up, that would be a good place to take a look for information on that case.
I did something in, I think, the book Alien Mysteries and Cover-Ups that came out a couple of years ago about the Maury Island case based on a lot of what George Early had found and other information.
Interestingly enough, I think it was Chrisman who had written a letter to Ray Palmer, who was the editor of Science Fiction Magazine and started the Shaver Mystery stuff.
And Chrisman claimed that he had been in the caves where the Deeros lived when he served in the military during the Second World War.
unidentified
That was kind of the problem.
That was what I think discredited the entire thing.
You know, the one thing I wanted to say is that for a long time I was a proponent of disclosure and that whatever is going on, you know, we deserve to know about it.
And the more I thought about it, you know, what if the situation is something like, you know, yeah, they're here and they're abducting us.
We can't do anything about it.
You know, yeah, they could take your children in the middle of the night and you might not ever see them again.
You know, sorry about that.
We can't do anything.
If that was the situation, I don't know if a lot of people would really want to know that.
You might be better off as not going, as John Lear said, yeah, just kind of going through and doing your thing.